Good mundane classes (D&D, PF, and any d20)

[Yora]

I'm playing a bit around with the numbers for a new d20 variant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270362) that is both relatively rules light for a d20 game, and focusing on nonmagical classes.

The most severe obstacle is finding "signature features" for the nonmagical classes that meaningfully differentiate them from each other without having too much rules creep and power creep.

Taking inspiration from all kinds of sources, I think it usually comes down to four primary concepts "warrior", "berseker", "hunter", and "thief", which are all represented by standard SRD classes. (There is also martial artists, but almost all in fiction are in fact highly supernatural.)

The only other D&D class that comes to mind is the Scout from CW, I am not familiar what PF has to offer in that regard. Iron Heros would also be a great place to look, which I will try to do, but I think I remember a Token-mechanic that is essentially a "martal mana pool", that doesn't fit so well with the objective of being simple and ready to play for beginners. Any other suggestions for classes to look into? Pretty much every d20 source is fair game, though it might get a bit difficult to get hold of the more obscure d20 games.

[Lord_Gareth]

Warblade and Crusader can both be great starting points.

[Yora]

I don't really see them working. I've been looking over the rules again and almost all stances and maneuvers seem to be "I hit it with my weapon and deal +1d6 damage/get +4 to the attack roll/ignore 2 points of DR/get +2 to AC against Attacks of Opportunity". It's all passive nummeric bonuses that have to be activated for the round. It's mostly slight changes to who runs out of hit points first, without really allowing the classes to do things that the others can't do. Like thieves skills, silently killing an enemy with a single strike, ignore obstacles, track enemies, and so on.

[Greenish]

Any d20? :smalltongue: I really liked Legend's takes on Barbarian, Ranger, and Rogue. Of note are, for example, Ranger's trap setting and ninja Rogue's smoke bombs.

Of course, there's very little mundane in said classes, but that's because the system assumes you want to play extraordinary characters.

[Feralventas]

I'd argue against crusader since, while it's still a "martial adept" Devoted Spirit, not to mention some of it's class features, tend to lean toward supernatural effects.

However, I feel you've misunderstood how martial adepts work Yora. The Warblade is a martial character of which can use maneuvers on their own tern, some maneuvers as immediate actions (Wall of Blades to use an Attack in place of your AC, Iron Heart Surge to negate a debuff) and Stances are buffs/effects that last until the adept decides to switch out of them; not temporary things for the round.

The maneuvers also lend themselves to different play-styles. Diamond Mind lends itself to a very contemplative character, focused and disciplined in fluff (concentration skill based) and works off of the idea of a very perceptive warrior who uses precision and awareness to know how and where to strike or move in combat. Compare with Stone Dragon, something of a Juggernaut's style, destroying obstacles and emphasizing resilience instead.

As a melee combatants, you'll be hard pressed to find a better, fairly balanced and utilitarian class.



But with that done, PF's Ranger has a number of options, though since those get Spells at later levels, you'd want to look into the Trapper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/trapper) and Skirmisher (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/skirmisher) archetype variants.

PF's Rogue functions a lot like the 3.5 one, though the addition of Rogue Talents (as long as you skip the magical ones) should make them more appealing.

The Barbarian in PF actual gets more supernatural with a lot of it's Rage Powers, but you can pick and chose those pretty carefully.

PF Fighter can work in the right circumstances, but runs into the same 3.5 problem of being good at fighting and little else. If you're going to go with no-magic rules, then it can't be supplemented by Master Craftsman to pick up Crafting feats either.

The Alchemist does a lot of effects which are mechanically spell-based, but can be fluffed as chemistry and biology rather than magic if you like. Plus bombs, which are fun.

The Gunslinger is pretty much a fighter, but might work better for someone who needs/wants to focus on firearms and mid-range combat.

The (adjective) Hero classes from D20 Modern aren't terrible if you've got a setting to support them, though you'll probably want to allow access to feats from the other available sources to bring them up to par. Some of the PrC's available in D20 Modern are quite nifty; I played a Negotiator and that worked excellently as a party face and general handy-man via Electronic skills. The Martial Artist is almost better than the Monk for combat use.

[Urpriest]

Are you looking for character archetypes, or classes? Your title suggests the latter, but the content of your post (looking for things beyond warrior, berserker, hunter, and thief) suggests the former.

[Yora]

Actually class features. I a going to some serious butchering and custom building.

If anyone has an idea for an entirely new concept that isn't a hardcoded warrior/thief, that would of course be very appreciated as well.

That warrior type classes only are good at hitting things is a variety of ways and can only diversify with learning cross-class skills lies in the very nature of the entire concept, I think. That's what they do. Giving much easier access to those skills seems to be the best thing to do in my oppinion. And making the entire game much more skill-emphasised is one of the core concepts of the d20 variant I am working on. Which in consequence means that the other classes also have to be rather bare bones, to get away from the 3.5e paradigma of heaping up special combat abilities.
For the berserker type, I have rage, uncanny dodge, better reflexes, and damage reductions.
For the thief type, I have Skill Mastery (auto Take 10 on every roll of 1 to 9) and Backstab.
And for the hunter type Tracking and Wildernes Stealth. Which are both quite situational and really demand one additional meaningful feature.

Tome of Battle does the opposite of what I want, by giving much more options to fine tune specific modifiers during combat as you go.

[Feralventas]

Most thief classes can be re-tooled into an expert/professional in a number of fields. Taking the Rogue and emphasizing charisma and wisdom skills makes an astoundingly apt entrepreneur. Profession rolls for business acumen, diplomacy for deals, gather information to find prospective markets and sense motive to avoid things like scams and fraud.

Fantasycraft does this magnificently with the Explorer class. It gains several features one would expect with a thief (reflexes, skills, awareness) but is coupled with an academic set of abilities geared toward research and gathering information, including making limited resources more effective (smaller scale archives being treated as more sophisticated ones) and accelerated process (1/2, and later 1/4th and 1/8th of the time required for the same amount of research, allowing for more to be achieved in the available time, or to get the knowledge they need faster).

The Assassin from the same source works well as a person-to-person interaction character, gaining things like Cold Read; the DM must either answer the player a series of questions about a given character or NPC based on subtle, minute details that the assassin can perceive. If the DM refuses, the Assassin instead gains additional Action Dice, which they can use to boost rolls or on a number of other effects within the game.

Warriors in FC also have gains, but theirs are associated with their given trade. A Captain gains bonuses in acquiring and using their political reputation. A Soldier gains bonuses and discounts in crafting and purchasing equipment for themselves or anyone they work with, allowing them greater use of their monetary resources.

[Yora]

Warriors in FC also have gains, but theirs are associated with their given trade. A Captain gains bonuses in acquiring and using their political reputation. A Soldier gains bonuses and discounts in crafting and purchasing equipment for themselves or anyone they work with, allowing them greater use of their monetary resources.
Which would be the skills I mentioned.

Somehow these are getting neglected in most discussions about D&D 3.5e/PF and d20 games in general. If you are not playing the game for tactical combat, the skills still allow for a very wide range of roleplaying options and you don't just have to say "then go play a different game".

[Urpriest]

In this case, Pathfinder Barbarian seems like a good source of inspiration. There are a lot of rage powers that give interesting qualitative abilities.

[Feralventas]

Ah, I think I understand what you're getting at. I apologize for jumping to the ToB's defense after my initial misunderstanding. You're looking for features and character options that would function for a standard, mundane character, fit their "class" type, so as to allow them non-combat skill and aspects?

The idea of a soldier gaining clout because of their reputation as a veteran makes a fair amount of sense, but you could also apply it to different people depending on what kind of warrior is involved; A soldier might gain renown among military commanders, while an officer or leader instead leans toward political connections, and a more down-to-earth fighter connects with the common folks. This could manifest itself as a bonus to diplomatic relations with such people, or to social skills in general (intimidation, persuasion, distraction). Modern examples might be a a retired officer with friends in high places, a famed prize-fighter, or a police officer.

In a contemporary setting, soldiers and combat have changed a great deal; a professional soldier will learn how to fire a weapon sure, but they might also learn to drive and operate a number of different kinds of vehicles, or handle chemistry and demolition (expanding to engineering and architecture as well) or electronics, either physical or computational.

An actual Thief requires a number of skills beyond breaking, entering and stealth now. Understanding of security systems, psychology, and basic physics are invaluable, though these have been covered above I think.

A Private Investigator could operate much like the Explorer class I referred to earlier; an individual who focuses on gathering information, using a combination of social and archival resources, with a touch of technical (cameras or computer searches) if they would have access to them. Combat-wise, they'd likely try to Avoid confrontation, but gain bonuses to it in the form of being wary of people, perhaps having a constant readied action to use before the initiative count starts.

Perhaps at a certain level they could establish a "contact"; an NPC of which they regularly interact with who can aid in specific fields of interest. This could be a police officer or investigator who helps them keep informed of crimes and potential investigative jobs, or a politician who often needs something looked into quietly, or even just a local bar-keeper or restaurant manager who keeps their ear to the ground about local activity. Gaining Contacts as they progress would be both a source of increased character versatility, but also provide an easy link to feed mission and objective leads into the campaign as you progress, even setting up for one, big inter-connected story affecting all levels of the society they're working in.

[dspeyer]

I wonder if Sherlock Scan could be made into a class feature. It's a little tricky to devise mechanics for it.

[Arbane]

I wonder if Sherlock Scan could be made into a class feature. It's a little tricky to devise mechanics for it.

Sounds reasonably straightforward to me - make a int/skill/whatever check, the GM has to answer X questions. If the NPC is trying to deceive people, you might get a wrong answer or (if you roll high) know they're hiding something.