Reincarnate abuse?

[Carth]

The spell reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) preserves your feats, mental ability scores, and skill points. This seems to mean that you can become a gray elf, keep its racial feats and int bumps, and reincarnate yourself to become a different race to inherit its superior physical ability scores. However, I'm noticing something else:


The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn’t automatically speak the language of the new form.

So if you're reincarnated at level 2, dropping to 1st level, or reincarnated at 1t level via last breath, and become a human, that's broad enough to me to indicate that you get the extra feat and skill point bonuses. And you'd keep the bonus feat and skill points if you died again? So it seems to me that you'd want to start life as something with bonuses to mental stats and bonus feats, then switch to human as soon as possible to reap a bonus feat and bonus skill points.

Sure, this is abusive as hell and never likely to be used in any real game, but am I reading the potential of this correctly? By RAW do you gain the skills and feats of a human when you're reincarnated as one? If not, it's a double edged sword, because a half-orc reincarnated into a human would lose darkvision, their one ability score boost, and keep two ability score penalties without getting anything to make up for these losses. And at low levels, miracle and wish are a long way off to get your real form back.

Edit: and yes, this would actually be done with last breath (Spell Comp.), I only mention reincarnate because it's OGL and something everyone is familiar with.

[Yora]

You might have to kill yourself and get a druid to cast reincarnation on you a lot of times before you finally end up as a human.

[Deaxsa]

yes, but you could also net some SERIOUS penalties with it, for instance, the ability losses you get as well as the ability gains.

Edit:

A reincarnated creature recalls the majority of its former life and form. It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores.
so, you lose all racial modifiers, and all mental stats stay the same no matter what. additionally, who knows what kind of ability human's feat/skillpoints are. also, you keep losing levels.



edit: although it makes me wonder if you could wish/miracle yourself a reincarnate into a specific race... (assuming the DM is not very intelligent)

[AsteriskAmp]

Paying a cabal of spellcasters to cast Alter Fortune until you get the desired form would work I believe.

[Chilingsworth]

Also, using the Last Breath spell instead of reincarnate would avoid the level/con loss.

However, this trick is almost surely one of the casting methods for the Summon Marut Swarm spell. :smalltongue:

[Carth]

You might have to kill yourself and get a druid to cast reincarnation on you a lot of times before you finally end up as a human.

Yep, a price worth paying for an extra feat that could be anything, plus extra skill points. The only issue I see is that for humans it says the bonus feat comes at level 1, hence why I believe you'd need to do this at level 1, and with the last breath (Spell Comp.) spell to avoid constitution loss. Last breath is also cheaper. Apologies for not mentioning this in the OP, I opened with reincarnate because it's something everyone would be familiar with.


so, you lose all racial modifiers, and all mental stats stay the same no matter what. additionally, who knows what kind of ability human's feat/skillpoints are. also, you keep losing levels.



edit: although it makes me wonder if you could wish/miracle yourself a reincarnate into a specific race... (assuming the DM is not very intelligent)

"and the like" is vague enough that it could possibly mean the feat and skill points, which is what I'm curious about. Last breath stops level loss, as mentioned.

Wish and miracle don't come online soon enough for that to be worthwhile. Any DM that allows this is the first place is crazy, regardless of whether they allow miracle or similar to choose the form and save some time. :smallbiggrin:


Paying a cabal of spellcasters to cast Alter Fortune until you get the desired form would work I believe.

Last breath would cost 780 GP, the 100 XP cost of alter fortune makes it 650 GP. You're only able to afford last breath by virtue of the fact that your WBL doesn't suddenly become 2700 when you hit level 2, you work your way toward that number at 1st level. You can throw in an alter fortune too I suppose, but that just speeds things up. Because you theoretically don't derive any permanent benefit from "failed" castings of last breath, I'm not sure that it would be reasonable to count them against WBL. For instance, if you became a half-elf, half-orc or an elf again in the process of finding your way to humanity, you would literally keep nothing from those intermediary forms, because they don't grant feats that you don't already have, skill points, or class levels.

[Baroncognito]

That's confusingly phrased. You retain any class abilities you have, but you lose a level? Does that mean that if you're a level 5 wizard and you die and get reincarnated four times, you'd be a level 1 wizard with the ability to cast third level spells?

Or, if spell casting is the class ability and 3rd level spells aren't the class ability, you could be a first level ranger with an animal companion and the ability to cast spells at first level?

[Gavinfoxx]

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5996.0

This has the Last Breath method on it...

[Clistenes]

You could always give a friend with high UMD ranks a scroll of Reincarnate and another of Wish, and ask him to kill you, reincarnate you, and use the Wish scroll to turn you into whatever race you choose.

[Carth]

So what are people's thoughts on whether you get a human's bonus skill points and feat? It seems obvious to me that you'd get the bonus skill points going forward, but I'm curious whether others feel you'd get the human's bonus feat and bonus first level skill points if you were reincarnated through last breath at level 1. A human's stat block reads thusly:

HUMAN RACIAL TRAITS

Medium: As Medium creatures, humans have no special bonuses
or penalties due to their size.

Human base land speed is 30 feet.

1 extra feat at 1st level, because humans are quick to master
specialized tasks and varied in their talents. See Chapter 5: Feats.

4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each
additional level, since humans are versatile and capable. (The 4
skill points at 1st level are added on as a bonus, not multiplied in;
see Chapter 4: Skills.)

Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other
than secret languages, such as Druidic). See other racial lists for
common languages or the Speak Language skill (page 82) for a
more comprehensive list. Humans mingle with all kinds of other
folk and thus can learn any language found in an area.

Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass hu-man takes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class
does not count. (See XP for Multiclass Characters, page 60.)


The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn’t automatically speak the language of the new form.

Also, keep in mind that while my example in the OP is abusive, this issue is a double edged sword. A half-orc reincarnated as a human would be pissed to not get the bonus feat, as they just lost their one physical ability score boost, lost their darkvision, and kept their two ability score penalties, only to gain 1 skill point per level going forward.

[Piggy Knowles]

The old trick, where you age yourself to old age (gaining +3 to your mental stats and -6 to your physical stats) and then reincarnate into a youthful body to take away the downside, bears mentioning.

[Clistenes]

I have heard three different opinions about reincarnate:

Some people think that since the reincarnated creature keeps all the skill ranks and feats, and the mental stats, and those can be dependant on race, reincarnation works mechanically as being polymorphed, only permanently.

Some other people think that you should remove all racial traits and features of the old race and add all racial traits and features of the new race, save the mental stats.

Some other people think that you should keep all feats and all skill ranks, racial or not, and the mental stats, and change everything else.

I would just use logic. If a human is reincarnated into a dwarf or an elf, you shouldn't win their racial weapon proficiencies, since those are cultural, but you shouldn't lose the feats and skills you learned as human either, since those are things, well, learned, not part of your body.

[Phelix-Mu]

The old trick, where you age yourself to old age (gaining +3 to your mental stats and -6 to your physical stats) and then reincarnate into a youthful body to take away the downside, bears mentioning.

If I were DM, I would allow this to mitigate age penalties, but not change your chronological age or age category. I guess it's still a useful tactic, but I would not allow this as one of the many routes to immortality.

[Gavinfoxx]

If I were DM, I would allow this to mitigate age penalties, but not change your chronological age or age category. I guess it's still a useful tactic, but I would not allow this as one of the many routes to immortality.

Why not? Which methods from the handbook I linked to would you shoot down?

[Carth]

I have heard three different opinions about reincarnate:

Some people think that since the reincarnated creature keeps all the skill ranks and feats, and the mental stats, and those can be dependant on race, reincarnation works mechanically as being polymorphed, only permanently.

Some other people think that you should remove all racial traits and features of the old race and add all racial traits and features of the new race, save the mental stats.

Some other people think that you should keep all feats and all skill ranks, racial or not, and the mental stats, and change everything else.

I would just use logic. If a human is reincarnated into a dwarf or an elf, you shouldn't win their racial weapon proficiencies, since those are cultural, but you shouldn't lose the feats and skills you learned as human either, since those are things, well, learned, not part of your body.

I'm seeing the word "should" pop up in there more than I'd like. Just to be clear, are these RAW interpretations you've seen, or solutions that were applied because they seemed good at decision time? I'm only interested in RAW.

[Phelix-Mu]

Why not? Which methods from the handbook I linked to would you shoot down?

Actually, not so much shoot down. As I said, I don't view chronological age as tied to the body you are in. As per Timeless Body, even someone that is stuck in the body of a 20 year old will die when they reach their maximum age. I don't see changing into a new body as a way to avoid this.

Generally speaking, routes to "immortality" are fairly kosher in my game, just I like keeping them hard to attain. I have used several versions of type-changes to confer actual or virtual agelessness on characters, but I find that this brings up a whole bunch of challenges, as pcs that won't live forever now see it as somehow being a cool perk, and look for a way of their own. Not that this is a problem in and of itself, but as written in the handbook, living forever isn't that cool, and not mechanically that powerful in game.

Unfamiliar with Wedded to History, but it sounds sketchy. The BoVD spell method might work, but carries some fairly hefty role play drawback. True Mind Switch also may work, same drawback. Cancer Mage, well, I don't think that was even covered. Oh, base races. Yeah, I guess that can fly. I'd add draconians to that list, since back in 2nd edition it was mentioned somewhere that they don't age like normal living beings, and might conceivably never die if not killed in battle. Items that grant endless life with drawback are fine, as are items that can grant virtual endless life. Expect them to be harder to come by in my world, jealously guarded secrets and so forth.

Reincarnate spam is way too easy. Let's leave aside that this is horrible, unnatural use of druidic magic. You can probably wish yourself around this limit. In general, use of simple spells to acquire immortality is not going work. Call it DM fiat, but I don't want every wizard to be immortal, or even close. Lich is a flawed option (mostly IMHO there), but it would be a lot less iconic if low level spells netted a comparative or better effect.

Now, possible research or combining spells/powers to create unique effects is tantamount to a ritual, similar to necropolitan, so that option might be open to a determined character that invests resources and time figuring it out.

Basically I just don't want it to be easy. Both type changes I previously referenced were capstones to 10 level prestige classes, and one wasn't actual immortality, just that fey have an arbitrarily long lifespan in my world, so for practical purposes, ageless. The other character turned into an elemental at an early age, which I partially compensated for by saying she'll never gain age categories, so no age bonuses to mental stats. This particular character already was sporting near limitless power (druid, ofc), so I didn't feel bad about a little caveat.

[Carth]

The BoVD spell method might work, but carries some fairly hefty role play drawback.

You can minimize this by casting PAO to create whatever you want that has ability scores, then using steal life. You're only stealing from a temporarily alive object. :smallbiggrin:

[Chilingsworth]

You can minimize this by casting PAO to create whatever you want that has ability scores, then using steal life. You're only stealing from a temporarily alive object. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, (http://magiccards.info/query?q=%21Blood+Vassal)

Cause, that sort of trick has never had a downside before. (http://www.angelfire.com/ia/nicolbolas/thrull.html):smallamused:

[Carth]

Ooh, I hadn't even thought of using pebbles turned to people into cannon fodder before.

[Gavinfoxx]

As far as unnatural use of druidic magic...

Use an Archivist's version of the casting, rather than a Druid's version... Archivist should be able to (perhaps?) modify the tone or some of the details of the prayer a bit while keeping the effect...

[Carth]

A scroll is also an option

[Synovia]

yes, but you could also net some SERIOUS penalties with it, for instance, the ability losses you get as well as the ability gains.

Edit:

so, you lose all racial modifiers, and all mental stats stay the same no matter what. additionally, who knows what kind of ability human's feat/skillpoints are. also, you keep losing levels.



edit: although it makes me wonder if you could wish/miracle yourself a reincarnate into a specific race... (assuming the DM is not very intelligent)

It seems really abusable that the mental stats stay the same. If you take something with a bonus to mental stats and penalties to physical, and then reincarnate to something that has penalties to mental and bonuses to physical, you're going to end up with bonuses to everything

[Bubzors]

I've DM'ed a group before that this happened in. The human paladin died and was reincarnated as a dwarf. So he ignored the -2 cha, and got the +2 con, and +2 vs spell saves. He actually was saved from dieing a few other times due to these boons. Needless to say the quote "Landfill 2, you're so much better than landfill 1" was a recurring phrase in the party

[Phelix-Mu]

It seems really abusable that the mental stats stay the same. If you take something with a bonus to mental stats and penalties to physical, and then reincarnate to something that has penalties to mental and bonuses to physical, you're going to end up with bonuses to everything

In the rational world of core, the penalty was you died, with the accompanying loss of level. Last breath did away with that, adding in a time restraint for the casting of the spell. Cocoon from Spell Compendium does a similar thing, but much less efficiently.