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Doomboy911
2013-02-07, 12:30 AM
First off this will fill with comments quickly.

My friends and I decided that with out combined talents of gaming we could devise a world we can play in. We than did that. We set upon building our own races. I won't mention the other races just the two that matter.
First our mine the Penoans. They live upon a southern continent and after 1000 years of strife (read living on giant turtles and growing food there) they've returned and began rebuilding their super awesome ancient culture. How well honestly they just need to boot it up again they're that awesome.
They're very peaceful having a sub sect of their people doing all the fighting while they focus on hard work and the arts. Peaceful folks that I could totally enjoy.

The other group are called the Ironborn. They're the powerhouses slowly but surely taking over the world having parts of the world assimilate because the Ironborn have awesome stuff and they'll make you stop exist if you refuse. They do their best to go about things peacefully though what with all the assimilation. The Ironborn are people made of metal who as they take over the world their genetics and magic cause others to become like them. In enough time they'll have the whole world and everyone will become like them.(they're sort of rome)

Here comes the issue my character is a Penoan who despises the Ironborn because everyone is assimilating. He wants to stop their expansion but their is no way to stop them. And upon further evidence stopping them causes their economy to collapse and millions of Ironborn to suffer. He doesn't hate them just what they're doing. It's not in him to destroy them but he can't stand to let them grow.

So the question is whether it's better have these people assimilate the world or have millions suffers so others can have their freedom of expression?

TuggyNE
2013-02-07, 01:42 AM
Unless the Ironborn are built on a pyramid scheme, how is it possible for controlling their expansion to trash them? Just make sure they have enough resources to keep their current population at its present level, and make a treaty that they won't expand beyond that point.

Basically I think we're missing something here; there's no obvious reason taking a third option won't work.

Chilingsworth
2013-02-07, 01:55 AM
Also, the Ironborn sound more like the Borg than the Romans.

Stubbazubba
2013-02-07, 01:57 AM
The Ironborn are clearly the aggressors; they could, at any point, just choose to stop expanding. Assuming the Penoans do not want to be assimilated in any way, they can just stop trading with them, hole up wherever they live, and live their blissful little lives in isolation. If the Ironborn don't respect this desire and try to force them to open up, they're clearly disregarding the Penoans' rights to self-determination and sovereignty, and would be in the wrong.

However, it seems like you're hinting that there are catastrophic results if the Ironborn do not constantly expand. If, for instance, they would really start dying off en masse if they couldn't expand, then it becomes an issue. That might change things, but until we know more, I think the above still stands.

ArcturusV
2013-02-07, 02:31 AM
Well, the obvious step for your character, least the one that leaps up and bites me right in the face... is that your character tries to sabotage their expansion. Obviously they Ironborn sound aggressive. In fact from the write up there I wouldn't be surprised if the "Peaceful" means they use are often not really "Peaceful" means but intimidation, threats, extortion, etc.

But stopping them from expanding wouldn't really do anything to "harm" their empire. Unless they put EVERYTHING into expansion. And if they are putting all their chips in that pot, then it's no longer a peaceful, good situation, and their public is going to suffer on anything but total subjugation of everyone else. And even that might not fix it.

Chilingsworth
2013-02-07, 02:41 AM
Out of curiosity, if the Ironborn somehow have to expand to survive, what would happen to them if they were completely successful? I.e., what happens when there's nowhere left to expand to? If they have a way to survive that, then they can use whatever method they have to survive without assimilating your people. If they can't survive that, then they're doomed anyway and allowing them to continue expansion at the cost of your people would only delay the inevitable.

Doomboy911
2013-02-08, 12:05 AM
Well let's focus on the leader of the Ironborn a bold powerful emperor named Octavian (suddenly got a bit more roman) should he die (which slows the empire down a lot) a war is going to break out over who is to be the new emperor since he has two brothers and a sister who is currently but unwillingly sitting on the throne. This will cost a great deal of lives.

On the other end is Itzli of the Penoans who is a pacifist (will kill monstrous spiders but refuses to fight unless his life is put on the line and even than he won't kill) he doesn't hate Octavian he despises him but should Octavian try to clear the bad blood between the two (Octavian has just been given a magic mirror that shuts down magic and he plans to mass reproduce the artifact and put on his legion of airships so the only people able to stop him with their magic can't stop him. Itzli tried to smash the mirror. He did this by shrinking down sneaking into Octavian's tent and trying to break the mirror. He got caught and got in trouble but survived.) Itzli will forgive him and try to befriend him. He can't take it upon himself to kill this man knowing that he's breaking one of his core principles and endangering thousands despite the fact that he doesn't like them.

Also the way the Ironborn work is they basically come in with a big airship locked and loaded. They find an area that is suffering from some problem like a civil war and taking the side that works with them and smiting the rest. They're played up as the good guys and the rest can suck it.

SkySonata
2013-02-08, 07:23 AM
I'm sorry for bringing that up, but your races aren't that totally new... They inherit a lot from what has been already said and shown.

As for your question, it's not a matter of choice. It's a matter of responsibility. Is your character ready to take responsibility for any of those actions?

Doomboy911
2013-02-08, 11:45 AM
Well yeah Skysonata nothing new under the sun heck I drew the comparisons myself. Penoans are Persian, Ironborn are Rome. Yes the deaths of those people will be on Itzli's hands he knows that and he can't stand it.

ArcturusV
2013-02-08, 03:16 PM
See... here's where things get squiffy for me. The philosophical conflict exists from "I will not kill X and plunge the Empire into a bloody civil war." ... but there's nothing that says "The only way to stop the Empire from destroying all other life is to kill X".

You mention the Mirror Sabotage. The mirror sabotage shouldn't have been your only recourse to prevent this apocalypse from happening. In fact the Mirror is probably the best tool you have for slowing down the Empire.

Mirror cancels Magic. Your Ironblood Conquer by using a Magic Curse to turn others into them. ... ergo widesrpead development of this mirror and popping them around means that they can never just "Assimilate" a town. They'd have to conquer a place. Wait several generations of breeding with the locals to weed out the Non-Ironblooded blood and dillute it enough that the population is Ironblooded. The mere fact the mirror exists slows down their conquering pace from perhaps days per city/village to generations. If they move on faster? Well then they have to leave security forces, garrisons, etc. They will eventually reach an untenable position... and this will take long enough that the Succession Issues will either be sorted out or have happened anyway so don't sweat it.

If your character is smart, and should be I presume being able to do magic... this isn't something that should be outside the bounds to guess at. Mirrors to prevent magic prevents the rapid assimilation of new life. Meaning they have to leave garrisons. Their large, unstoppable army gets smaller with every area they move into. Locals are not instantly turned so you have rebellious factions which lower the value of the land itself (Rebellious populations just aren't as productive as happy natives), force them to increase garrisons to keep the rebels in check, possibly suffer sabotage and attrition through rebel actions. And people, generally not willing to fight to the death all the time, are going to have the defeated soldiers run off away from the Ironblooded before they are all slaughtered by them. Particularly since there's no magic involved in the invasion so it's not like they'll get Insta-Smote as they run.

So you'll end up in a situation where some hold out that hasn't been conquered will have it's army swelled by veterans and refugees rescued and trickling in from it's neighbors. You'll have an active rebellion opposing the Ironblooded, and you could foster it if not. NO ONE likes to be ruled by foreign powers, and will choose the local despot over even a benevolent foreigner. And the further out the Ironblooded go, the weaker their army gets as soldiers are pulled off frontline duty to run garrison duty in conquered areas until the several generations pass (At best). The Ironblooded get weaker, the opposition gets stronger. Eventually you counterattack and there isn't anything the Ironblooded can do about it. You can kick them right back to their starting borders.

... and doing that will not destroy any more lives than, well, the Empire was destroying anyway. The Empire could be given terms to sue for peace, left in its own borders. You'd probably have a multinational alliance come out of this that would agree to curbstomp them if they tried that again, meaning they won't be able to go World Conquering for quite a while unless something drastically changes. The Emperor remains on his throne and keeps order. Win win.

Slipperychicken
2013-02-08, 06:09 PM
It's you or them. They're the evil empire, and you're the peace-loving nomads. Whack Octavian, then try to integrate as many refugees as you can, and set up a charity to help disadvantaged people of both species. Take down your people's leader too, and replace him with someone fit to rule (i.e. with a spine and functioning pair of balls).

Also take advantage of the chaos (play the Ironborn factions against each other, supply weapons to all sides, conquer as much as you can get away with, don't let one side win) to let your people recover in style.:smallcool:

Doomboy911
2013-02-08, 06:59 PM
Eh my people are ok they're one million men strong. The Ironborn aren't evil as well they bring change; women get to vote, no more slaves, no poverty. The problem is the slow but steady process of assimilation. The Ironborn have this weird magic that makes them the ironborn it's slow but stead going at average rate it takes for dominant genes to show up.

The magic mirror won't affect that the source of this power comes from some blood from something beyond a god and no stealing it won't make them all fleshy.

Tengu_temp
2013-02-08, 07:55 PM
Is the only problem that the Ironborn slowly turn all populations into Ironborn? Because they're still thinking people, it's not like the Borg when they assimiliate people and turn them into mindless drones. And from the way you described it, it sounds like they don't even affect already living people, just more and more children are born as Ironborn.

If that's the case, then I must say - from the two choices you offered, opposing them is the wrong thing to do. Not liking the fact that the Ironborn become the dominant race in the world is not even loving freedom, it's just racism.


It's you or them. They're the evil empire, and you're the peace-loving nomads.

What a gross oversimplification. Needless to say, I couldn't disagree more.

Slipperychicken
2013-02-08, 08:30 PM
What a gross oversimplification. Needless to say, I couldn't disagree more.

Well, he's got two options: defend his people or watch them die. Either way the world's populated with real thinking people; it's just a question of who comes out on top.

Doomboy911
2013-02-08, 09:12 PM
Hmm perhaps I'm going about things the wrong way. If I get rid of the heart of Iron (the thing that lets them make little roman metal people) they won't spread that way and they'll know in time that they will lose their advantage and an even playing field will be set.

ArcturusV
2013-02-08, 09:28 PM
Ah. Vague terms. I mean you told me the Mirrors stop Magic. You told me as well the Ironborn turn people via Magic. Thus the misunderstanding. Though I figured that eventually their blood (aka, spawning with locals) would do the trick.

*shrug*

I ponder why there is no arms race in that world though. I mean if Empire X has a superweapon (turning everyone into them) or other obvious advantage (God is Angry, but Picky, one sided magical nullification), why no counters are being developed. I mean the Mirror, okay, it's new. So no time to have studied it and found a way to counter it's effects. But presumably the Turning thing has been going on for a while. You'd figure someone would come up with a Vaccine or a Cure of some sort by now.

Might be what your character does. Who cares if the Ironborn are ruling? Maintain uniqueness by researching a vaccine/cure that counteracts their Magic Curse Turning thing and go, "Ha ha, moral victory is mine!"

Slipperychicken
2013-02-08, 09:54 PM
even playing field will be set.

Even playing field => More Bloodshed => Bad.

Both sides surviving the war means they'll fight again another day, with all the moral outrage which accompanies interstate violence. If you want peace, you need to finish it, once and for all.

Also, it's generally considered a good thing to maintain genetic diversity. Say the Ironborn win and assimilate everyone -if there's a disease/curse/etc which works against them, it inflicts untold casualties and leaves them vulnerable. If there are a multitude of species, they have a much better shot at surviving it. So even if you conquer the Ironborn, maybe you can keep some of them on quarantine-reservations so they can live but not kill everyone. Just in case the world needs robots for something like fighting aliens or dealing with hazardous materials.

Scow2
2013-02-08, 11:15 PM
Both sides surviving the war means they'll fight again another day, with all the moral outrage which accompanies interstate violence. If you want peace, you need to finish it, once and for all.

Wow. Genocidal advocacy much? Have you ever stopped to consider just how difficult and atrocious it would be to completely annihilate another faction?

Slipperychicken
2013-02-08, 11:21 PM
Wow. Genocidal advocacy much? Have you ever stopped to consider just how difficult and atrocious it would be to completely annihilate another faction?

You don't need to kill the whole race, just conquer the military/political unit and stop it from killing you. I even mentioned it's better to keep the race around peacefully if possible, for diversity's sake.

The only problem with keeping them around comes from the fact that so long as one Ironborn lives, it has the potential to re-assimilate the whole world and genocide your species. If that wasn't the case, I'd be all for total peaceful integration (giving Ironbon rights, citizenship, freedom of movement, civil liberties, the whole package). But as it is, the only way to keep them from genocide-ing everyone else is to somehow isolate them so it doesn't spread.

Scow2
2013-02-08, 11:25 PM
You don't need to kill the whole race, just conquer the military/political unit and stop it from killing you. I even mentioned it's better to keep the race around peacefully if possible, for diversity's sake.

The military/political unit often has 'grassroots' support as well, so you can't completely conquer/destroy it without fear of 'conservative' revolution.

Slipperychicken
2013-02-08, 11:45 PM
The military/political unit often has 'grassroots' support as well, so you can't completely conquer/destroy it without fear of 'conservative' revolution.

If you really give them a fair shake in terms of civil rights and economic aid, that should weaken the insurgency. You still have to deal with it though, which should be workable if the Penoans have resolve and good counter-insurgency/counter-terrorism tactics. That awesome civilization fluff might be just what they need to convince the majority to back down.

Either way, I see going from "my species is about to be destroyed" to "my species has to deal with terrorists" as a net gain. But if keeping the Ironborn around is going to be too much hassle... I guess you could try finishing with an ultimatum and hoping enough join you that their population can recover.

Doomboy911
2013-02-12, 12:54 AM
I think I finally figured out what I find so wrong. My group of people have this way of life that means they watch out for each other that when it comes to death they fight for each other because those people matter doesn't matter if they don't know their name or what they stand for they care because they know they can expect the same from them. Is this crazy a little but it's a good way to think it sounds kind of great that you can wake up and look to everyone and know that dang it they care about you.

You can't see the same from the Ironborn yes they look out for their family and those who benefit them but everyone else is just nothing pawns to be played with. (Bit of an exxageration but the difference still stands)