[FR] Forcing someone to be False or Faithless

[Jeff the Green]

I'm playing a cleric of Kelemvor who is currently hunting an assassin that killed her entire family, her fiancé, her fiancé's family, a number of her friends in the cloister, and, most recently, a family friend who helped her try to find the assassin. She thinks death is too good for him, especially since he'll probably just go to an afterlife that suits him, not one of torment.

At the same time, I'm working on getting her into Anima Mage, which will require her to drop from LG to LN.

I'm thinking I want to get the assassin to renounce his faith and so become either False or Faithless (so he'll either be stuck in the Wall of the Faithless or be judged by Kelemvor instead of his patron) before she kills him, but I have two problems. First, would you think this would count as "grossly violating the code of conduct required by" Kelemvor? And second, how would you go about this as a level 5 cleric (who might have a level of Binder when she gets to him)?

[peacenlove]

There is no sure spell or ability (except mindrape but its kinda outside your scope) to achieve your goal.

Find out which god does he/she worship (probably an evil one)
Pay his church to hunt him down and nearly kill him.
Repeat until he/she renounces his/her god
Repeat whole procedure until he renounces 2-3 gods.

[Lapak]

First, would you think this would count as "grossly violating the code of conduct required by" Kelemvor?This is the biggest roadblock, because the whole point of the Faithless/False system was set up by the gods specifically in order to prevent people from renouncing belief in / worship of the gods. Pretty much any FR god's #2 priority after their actual area of control is discouraging anyone from becoming False or Faithless.

So I'd expect that in the Forgotten Realms, it goes against any god's interests to deliberately set out to encourage someone to fall into that path, and a cleric who did it would be running against their deity's wishes in almost every circumstance.

[herrhauptmann]

So you make him renounce his deity. Fine, he's faithless.
Then he finds a new deity. He's no longer faithless. Gallows conversions are still conversions.

False would be still calling himself a follower of X, then going around violating the edicts of his god. Trying to ruin the tenets of the belief. Maybe telling fellow followers of Kossuth (fire god), that the proper way to sacrifice is to drown things, rather than burn them.
Or telling Lathanderites it's okay to raise undead. Or that they should sacrifice artists and children to Lathander, since he loves both so much.

edit:
How about a sanctify the wicked spell? Or using the BoED rules to change his alignment? He claims worship of Cyric, but you've gone and made him Lawful and/or Good. Even if he's not declared false/faithless, he'll probably spend eternity being tortured in Cyrics realm for being weak. Granted, followers of certain gods don't get treated well, even when they're faithful. Lolth and Cyric to name two.

[W3bDragon]

She thinks death is too good for him, especially since he'll probably just go to an afterlife that suits him, not one of torment.

You could, you know, like, get him arrested and charged with the murders and put away for the rest of his life. So instead of a quick death, he spends the rest of his life rotting away in a jail cell thinking about his crimes.

Being Lawful Good and all, that would seem to be the sane option, rather than obsessing about what will happen to him AFTER you kill him.

After that, if you're paranoid, spend as much time and resources making sure he doesn't get out of jail somehow. After a few months of him in jail and you adventuring, he'll no longer be a threat to you since you've levelled up many times and have spells at your disposal to find him wherever he goes if he somehow escapes.

[Alleran]

The FR deities, as a rule, do not attempt to force mortals to become Faithless or False (and it's really hard to get it done anyway), and nor do they encourage their followers to do so. Only one god that I can think of has ever dared try it, and he was insane at the time and acting way out of line with his portfolio (Cyric). He attempted to force Adon into becoming Faithless or False to Mystra. It required a direct divine intervention to force the change in the first place, and none of the other gods (even the ones like Shar) objected when Kelemvor eventually (after he got down off his high horse) healed what Cyric had done and set Adon right again, rather than allow him to be punished in such a fashion for something that had been forced on him in the first place.

I seriously doubt that a follower of Kelemvor would attempt to force somebody into the Wall, assuming that you're using the version where it exists (which I'd guess that you are). The Big Guy would not be happy, and it's an evil act on a scale that would make Cyric proud.


First, would you think this would count as "grossly violating the code of conduct required by" Kelemvor?
Absolutely, and depending on the GM it may not be of the sort that even an atonement would rectify. On the other hand, expect to be welcomed with open arms by Cyric, your new Lord and Master.

[Daer]

It probably would be easier turn him undead or trap his soul somewhere and then put that to somewhere it can't escape that easy.

[ahenobarbi]

Well how about trapping soul of the assasin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trapTheSoul.htm) on your own and not relying on deities to do so? Or destroying it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/artifacts.htm#sphereofAnnihilation)? Or you know redeeming him (?), you know since your character is good...

[Coidzor]

Is Thinaun available?


I seriously doubt that a follower of Kelemvor would attempt to force somebody into the Wall, assuming that you're using the version where it exists (which I'd guess that you are). The Big Guy would not be happy, and it's an evil act on a scale that would make Cyric proud.

There's a version where it doesn't? :smallconfused:

[Alleran]

There's a version where it doesn't? :smallconfused:
Yeah, it never came back in the novels after Kelemvor removed it (he did something else instead). The 3E campaign setting used it, and it was removed again in 4th edition (souls just hang around until they dissolve into the substance of the plane, IIRC, which is pretty much what Kelemvor did in the books). Basically, there's the novel version and the (3E) rulebook version.

[Raven777]

I thought False meant those people who worshiped false gods, like Razmiran Priests in Pathfinder? There's even an undead (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/wraith/apostasy-wraith) based off of how they get shafted in the afterlife because they followed Razmir.

So maybe you could awe your assassin with a pretend god, get his allegiance, and then lead him to his doom?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by W3bDragon
You could, you know, like, get him arrested and charged with the murders and put away for the rest of his life....that would seem to be the sane option, rather than obsessing about what will happen to him AFTER you kill him.

This really does make the most sense, and I'd think that any flavor of lawful would want to see this done through due process of law.

Otherwise, bringing some contorted metaphysical scheme to fruition really will become an obsession, with no solid rationale other than personal revenge. Manipulating someone to renounce their faith, especially with the hope of bringing them eternal torment, is decidedly non-good.



Although I must say that Kelemvor is somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps.

:smalltongue:

.

[Alefiend]

Good people sometimes want revenge. Roleplaying isn't all that interesting if all you do is follow your alignment. Drama comes from when your desires conflict with your nature.

[Palanan]

Agreed, to a certain point.

Do good people often want revenge? Absolutely.

But do good people often design and implement byzantine schemes for a revenge which, they hope, is literally worse than death? I'm not convinced that really qualifies as "good" anymore.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Although I must say that Kelemvor is somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps.

:smalltongue:

Is that... A Firefly reference I'm detecting here?:smallbiggrin:

[TuggyNE]

Agreed, to a certain point.

Do good people often want revenge? Absolutely.

But do good people often design and implement byzantine schemes for a revenge which, they hope, is literally worse than death? I'm not convinced that really qualifies as "good" anymore.

Yeah, that sounds like a great way to star in a traditional Greek tragedy: how a mad obsession with revenge brought a great man to ruin. (Or whatever.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

I thought False meant those people who worshiped false gods, like Razmiran Priests in Pathfinder? There's even an undead (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/wraith/apostasy-wraith) based off of how they get shafted in the afterlife because they followed Razmir.

So maybe you could awe your assassin with a pretend god, get his allegiance, and then lead him to his doom?

This is probably your best bet for what you're going for, but it does have the issue of taking a big chance on getting yourself listed amongst the false too.

I'd suggest trying to find a way to kill him, follow him into the afterlife via plane-hopping, find and capture his petitioner spirit in some sort of magical receptacle, then take your captive soul to baator and sell him to the devils for a profit. Then spend the rest of your mortal life atoning for what is probably the single grossest violation of kelemvor's dogma that is humanly possible or convert to a new god.

[Raven777]

Well, you can either think of what matches your current alignment best, or what makes the most interesting story. Personally, I would go for the latter.

Now, for your start of darkness... Your character is Good. Your character cares. The senseless slaughter of your character's innocent kin mortifies her. And as a priest of Kelemvor, she knows full well that even though mortality will catch up to her tormentor with time, he might still get away with his sins in the afterlife. Worse, she knows impunity and greatness beyond the grave are exactly what the murderer has planned.This cannot come to pass.

Your character is Lawful Good. Which means not only should she believe in laws and goodness, she should believe in Justice. But if the laws of the Gods won't uphold Justice, then she will need to uphold it in their stead. Cue jumping both feet first down the slippery slope.

Her knowledge of the divine and the afterlife allows her to devise a plan to deny the murderer's final reward. When all Gods turn their back on him, he will receive the torment he deserves. So first, she must have him turn his back on all Gods.

You character abandons her old life. She changes her name. She changes her appearance. Her party spreads rumors about her heroic death against monstrous foes. She even renounces Kelemvor to take up a godless ethos, probably a concept like Justice or Revenge. And, with experience and her new ethos still granting her growing command over the divine... with the heroic fame of her party's campaigns echoing across the realm... she kickstarts her own religion.

As she grows in power, she eventually approaches the Assassin. At first, she makes him a business partner, handing out missions to spread or strenghten the influence of her cult. And in time, she awes him with promises of power and boons. In time, from an enforcer, he becomes a convert.

But years later, at the apex of your cult's power, she calls him to her inner sanctum. And there he dies. But not before she whispers to him that this was all a scam.

Oh, sure, welcome to the Lawful Evil side of the alignment pool. Your character led thousands of believers to an eternity of torment beyond death. Including herself. But she had her revenge.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kuulvheysoon
Is that... A Firefly reference I'm detecting here?

This is what I do, darlin'. This is what I do.

:smallbiggrin:

.

[Alleran]

She even renounces Kelemvor to take up a godless ethos, probably a concept like Justice or Revenge. And, with experience and her new ethos still granting her growing command over the divine...
Doesn't work in FR. It's always a deity who provides divine power. Sometimes the individual might seem to be receiving spells from a concept, but it's still a god providing the power (for whatever reason - usually to advance some plan of its own), just without the person knowing about it.

[hamishspence]

There is that druid lich that receives power from "nature" in Champions of Ruin.

[Killer Angel]

She thinks death is too good for him, especially since he'll probably just go to an afterlife that suits him, not one of torment.

Kill the assassin and destroy his soul. Let him know that he's not going to have an afterlife. You'll have your revenge, without going too much evil.

There are some ways to permanently destroy a soul, so it shouldn't be impossible.

[hamishspence]

BoVD characterizes destroying a soul as something that only the vilest of villains would be willing to do.

[Alleran]

There is that druid lich that receives power from "nature" in Champions of Ruin.
Note the quotation marks you included for nature there. :smallwink:

[hamishspence]

A point is made of how his group are disdained by the gods in general- and that he was teaching this method, whatever it was, in order to ensure they wouldn't be dependant on the gods for power.

Most of the gods to whom running a con on these people would appeal, like Cyric, aren't nature gods so can't grant druid spells.

[Alleran]

Most of the gods to whom running a con on these people would appeal, like Cyric, aren't nature gods so can't grant druid spells.
Off the top of my head, Malar (anti-Seldarine member), Auril (another anti-Seldarine member), Umberlee (another anti-Seldarine member), and I think Talos, could all be interested in the prospect for one reason or another. The Eldreth Veluuthra think they have divine spells even though the actual elven gods have cut them off, so any anti-Seldarine deity is probably a valid option.

Huh. A lot of anti-Seldarine deities happen to be nature gods. Ironic.

[hamishspence]

I thought the rule was that to grant druid spells, the deity has to actually be a druid?

[Fouredged Sword]

Isn't there a weapon material that seals souls inside it? Stab him with that and chuck it directly into the wall of souls with a planeshift and a contingent shatter so it breaks when it gets lodged in the wall. Go directly to afterflife, do not pass judgment, do not collect $200.

[Clistenes]

1.-What about casting Polymorph Any Object (use a scroll and UMD or whatever) to turn him into a horse and sell him to be used as a mine horse? Those had it really bad, they had their eyes pulled out and had to spend the rest of their life underground, pulling wagons of mineral.

2.-Or use Baleful Polymorph to turn him into a pig, put a Periapt of Wound Closure on him and use him as food source for the rest of your life. Pork chops every day!

3.-Or use Baleful Polymorph to turn him into a rat, cut his four limbs and pull out its teeth, or just drain its dexterity and strength to zero, craft a box that grants the same benefits as a Ring of Sustenance and a Necklace of Adaptation to any creature locked into it, put a Contingency on the box so it Plane Shifts its contents to Hades if it's ever open, hide the box in the Astral Plane, and the effects are pretty much the same as turning him into a Faithless.

4.-Plane Shift him to Ravenloft.

5.-Drain his strength and dexterity to cero, and Plane Shift him to that layer of the Abyss that turns everybody who dies there into Bodaks.

6.-Drain his strength and dexterity to cero, put a Ring of Sustenance on him, and Plane Shift him to the Gray Waste, where he will quickly turn into one of its hopeless, ghostly petitioners.

7.-Do 1, 2, 3 and 5, in that order.

I would propose turning him into a ghoul, cutting his four limbs and burying him somewhere he would never be found, but Kelemvor frowns on the creation of undead.

Of course any of those would change your alignment to LE, but mind you, none of them aren't worse than sending him to the Wall of the Faithless, so doing as you originally intended would probably change your alignment too.

[Synovia]

This really does make the most sense, and I'd think that any flavor of lawful would want to see this done through due process of law.

.

Lawful doesn't necessarily mean "follows the law".

Feeling that people need to pay for their crimes is lawful. Feeling that someone who killed innocents should be killed can be lawful, whether or not it follows the law.


Lawful is not following "THE LAW" it is following an ordered code of conduct.

[Palanan]

So far there's a lot of creative nastiness being tossed around here, almost all of it with a casual aside about how pursuing this or that ghoulish plan will convert you to Lawful Really Horrible and/or subject you and/or thousands of others to eternal, writhing, and well-deserved torment.

Since the OP framed his question in terms of "grossly violating the code of conduct" of clerics of Kelemvor, I'm going to go way, way out on a limb and guess that he is actually vaguely concerned about staying within the bounds of his character's faith. (The OP can, of course, correct me on this.)

Also, since we haven't heard from the OP since he started the thread, I think the best question for him at this point is, "How much of your character's adventuring career do you want to spend on this?" I recognize the events he outlines are life-changing, but some of the more elaborate suggestions here would require years of campaign time to bring about, not to mention a great deal of in-game effort.

And is this a solo campaign, or a side quest for your character alone?

[Kelb_Panthera]

probably the simplest course would simply be to find a way to PAO him into something small, innocuous, and most importantly of animal intelligence. When he dies as an animal his soul simply dissipates immediately for lack of the necessary spiritual strength to hold together or goes to one of the nature deity realms to be hunted by predators forever.

No dogmatic violation for a kelemvorite and no vaguely happy-ish ending for the badguy.

Alternately, get him to sell his soul to a harvester devil. Kelemvore has a deal with the baatezu. While this plan might be frowned upon, it shouldn't be a -gross- violation of the church's teachings.

[Alleran]

I thought the rule was that to grant druid spells, the deity has to actually be a druid?
Several of the deities I mentioned have druid followers, even when they break the druid code themselves (e.g. Malar is Chaotic Evil). If you look at their "Followers" list in F&P, it also gives a brief list of likely followers, including druids where pertinent. There are also other FR gods who have little/nothing to do with druids, rangers and their ilk, yet still supply spells to them. Mystra has an order of rangers, for example, and they get their spells from her even though she isn't a druid or ranger in her statblock.


Since the OP framed his question in terms of "grossly violating the code of conduct" of clerics of Kelemvor, I'm going to go way, way out on a limb and guess that he is actually vaguely concerned about staying within the bounds of his character's faith.
If he wants to avoid violating the bounds of his faith, then he wouldn't be trying to force somebody to become Faithless/False in the first place. Of all the many FR gods, Kelemvor is quite possibly the worst choice for somebody who wants to try a plan like that.