Psionic Questions Thread (it's a Metaconcert in the Playground)

[Yora]

******https://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/33543.jpg
You link your psychic might with other psionic creatures,
creating an entity more powerful than the sum of its parts.

---

No, not Yoras Psionic Question Thread. I know quite a bit about d20 psionics, but I'm quite shaky on Complete Psionic and Pathfinder Psionics. And also, I do have questions myself. :smallbiggrin:

Feel free to ask any psionics related question and hopefully our combined knowledge will produce an answer.

The issue currently on my mind (mind the pun) is the pros and cons of the revised psionic powers from the XPH in CPsi. I think I mostly heard people say the changes suck, but are there any that actually work better than the original XPH/SRD version?

[Psyren]

Honestly, I like the damage changes. It makes sense to me that if a power summons something that deals slashing/piercing damage, that DR should affect it. After all, you're not really attacking with magic/psionics itself - you're summoning a non-magical shard of crystal and throwing it. This is why it persists in AMF after all. So if you're throwing it at a skeleton, there's a chance it flies through their rib cage or caroms off their collarbone or something and it does comparatively less damage.

The Astral Construct change was ridiculous though and should be ignored. It's telling that DSP ported the first change into PF Psionics but not this one.

EDIT: I'll be happy to piggyback on this and help answer questions if you like :smallsmile:

[Yora]

I'll be happy to piggyback on this and help answer questions if you like :smallsmile:
I was silently hoping on that. :smallbiggrin:

So it's really mostly Astral Construct and Crystal Dhard/Swarm? Those were the ones that came to my mind when thinking about it.
Energy missile and stun seem to be simple errata. +1 save DC per PP seems just wrong and +1 per 2 PPis how it works for pretty much all other powers.

[subject42]

Outside of a shaper abusing poison, is there a psionic way to do AoE ability score damage, like an arcane caster can do with cloudkill?

[Yora]

The stygian powers from Complete Psionic cause negative levels, that's the closest thing I am aware of.

[Kuulvheysoon]

The stygian powers from Complete Psionic cause negative levels, that's the closest thing I am aware of.

Just read through it - nothing else from CPsi does AoE ability damage.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Honestly, I like the damage changes. It makes sense to me that if a power summons something that deals slashing/piercing damage, that DR should affect it. After all, you're not really attacking with magic/psionics itself - you're summoning a non-magical shard of crystal and throwing it. This is why it persists in AMF after all. So if you're throwing it at a skeleton, there's a chance it flies through their rib cage or caroms off their collarbone or something and it does comparatively less damage.

The Astral Construct change was ridiculous though and should be ignored. It's telling that DSP ported the first change into PF Psionics but not this one.

EDIT: I'll be happy to piggyback on this and help answer questions if you like :smallsmile:

While I agree that the argument could be made for DR affecting Crystal Shard, I feel that it should either be made to effect similar Spells, or neither should allow DR.

[Psyren]

While I agree that the argument could be made for DR affecting Crystal Shard, I feel that it should either be made to effect similar Spells, or neither should allow DR.

It does affect similar powers - see the sidebar on CPsi 79.

EDIT: Just realized you were saying it should apply to magic too. I agree.

Psionics Unleashed recommends that DMs choose which version to apply to their games, and also recommends they keep these rules consistent between both magic and psionics. (e.g. don't have DR apply to slashing powers and not slashing spells.)

[Kalaska'Agathas]

It does affect similar powers - see the sidebar on CPsi 79.

EDIT: Just realized you were saying it should apply to magic too. I agree.

Psionics Unleashed recommends that DMs choose which version to apply to their games, and also recommends they keep these rules consistent between both magic and psionics. (e.g. don't have DR apply to slashing powers and not slashing spells.)

Sorry, I should have made that clearer. Interesting to note that Psionics Unleashed offers the choice - I'll have to check that system out in greater detail.

[Psyren]

Sorry, I should have made that clearer. Interesting to note that Psionics Unleashed offers the choice - I'll have to check that system out in greater detail.

It's on the PFSRD now (along with most of Psionics Expanded), so go nuts.

Though I am sad to report that they closed many of the loopholes in your handbook :smalltongue:

[Yora]

Do psions have any buffs they can put on allies? Looking through the powers, they all seem to be either targeted at enemies or have only personal range.

[subject42]

Do psions have any buffs they can put on allies? Looking through the powers, they all seem to be either targeted at enemies or have only personal range.

If you're willing to use Pathfinder, psychometabolist psions get this gem:



Shared Effect (Su)

At 8th level, any time you manifest a psychometabolism power with a range of personal, you may pay an additional 4 power points to have it affect two additional creatures touched. These additional power points count as an augment for the power and the manifestation is still limited by the normal manifester level cap. A power augmented in this fashion can affect an additional creature every four psion levels thereafter. The fission power may not be shared in this fashion.

[Ernir]

Do psions have any buffs they can put on allies? Looking through the powers, they all seem to be either targeted at enemies or have only personal range.

There are a few. Mind Blank and Power Resistance come to mind. Tower of Iron Will, I guess? There are a few in CPsi, too, IIRC.

But yes, Psions don't have a lot of buffs to apply directly. Even many of those powers that are direct spell equivalents were changed to have a range of Personal. I'd guess the reasoning is based in the Psionic fluff (personal realization and all that).

[Psyren]

Do psions have any buffs they can put on allies? Looking through the powers, they all seem to be either targeted at enemies or have only personal range.

There aren't many at all. Conceal Thoughts is one. Nomads (and Psyrogues, RAW) can Levitate others in the party, and you can put Mindlink on the party as well. CPsi gives us See Invisibility, which can be shared, and Eidetic Lock which is more of a plot-based power than anything. Mind Blank and PR were mentioned.

Beyond that... yeah. Psions are better off playing offensively - controller, blaster, summoner. Clairsentience (divination) powers also help the party too. If you do want to play a buffer psion, look into DSP's Society Mind/Worldthought Medic for 3.5, or the Vitalist from PF.

[Mithril Leaf]

I would like to volunteer my knowledge for the common good as well, although I'm not quite as gifted in the general sense of psionics as some, I'm fairly hard to beat at metacreativity.

[Claudius Maximus]

How do ardents work with power completion and power trigger items? Do they have a very restricted set of options based on mantles, or can they use anything that's on any mantle?

[Kalaska'Agathas]

How do ardents work with power completion and power trigger items? Do they have a very restricted set of options based on mantles, or can they use anything that's on any mantle?

That's difficult to say - I'd suspect that they may use anything that's on a mantle (just as a Wizard can use an item of any spell on their list, even if they don't know it), but I don't have anything definitive.

[Yora]

I would agree. Even psion can use trigger items of powers they don't know.

[Claudius Maximus]

Here's another one: can you activate a dorje of a swift action power as a swift action? Dorjes and wands both specify that you need at a standard action to activate them, but I understand that somewhere out there is a rule that changes that for wands, so that the action required matches that of the action needed to cast the spell. Does the same apply to dorjes?

[meemaas]

Rules compendium applies the ability to use a swift action spell from a wand as a swift action, but as far as I know, there is no explicit rule that allows you to do it with a dorje. However, since Dorjes are psionic wands, it stands to reason that it does apply, albeit slightly less RAW than we'd like.

[Yora]

Dorjes use the power trigger activation method, so manifesting a power from a dorje is usually a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the power being manifested has a manifesting time longer than 1 standard action, however, it takes that long to manifest the power from a dorje.)
I think the XPH was from before swift and immediate actions were invented, so there were no powers with a casting time shorter than 1 standard action. The way it is worded, I would take it as meaning that any dorje always takes the same action to actvate as the power it activates.

[sreservoir]

I think the XPH was from before swift and immediate actions were invented, so there were no powers with a casting time shorter than 1 standard action. The way it is worded, I would take it as meaning that any dorje always takes the same action to actvate as the power it activates.

xph actually ... sort of introduces those actions; they have a description in it, anyway.

[Claudius Maximus]

Rules compendium applies the ability to use a swift action spell from a wand as a swift action, but as far as I know, there is no explicit rule that allows you to do it with a dorje. However, since Dorjes are psionic wands, it stands to reason that it does apply, albeit slightly less RAW than we'd like.

Thanks for pointing out the rule in question - I had forgotten where it was. Anyway, I was afraid it'd work that way. It may be an oversight or something since RC doesn't address dorjes at all, but as is my reading is that you technically can't put swifts in them by RAW. I'll talk to the DM I guess.


I think the XPH was from before swift and immediate actions were invented, so there were no powers with a casting time shorter than 1 standard action. The way it is worded, I would take it as meaning that any dorje always takes the same action to actvate as the power it activates.

As pointed out above XPH definitely has swifts and immediates. This has come up because I'm trying to make a dorje of Hustle, which is in the XPH. What you say here does apply to the wand text in the DMG though, which I would guess they just copied and pasted when they made the dorje rules.

[Ernir]

Spell Trigger items were changed in the Rules Compendium to use the activation action of the spell they contained. Power Trigger items were not changed, so they are still activated as a standard action as a rule.

Considering that Spell Trigger and Power Trigger items are almost exactly the same, aside from finangling like this, I'd call standardizing the rules a very reasonable houserule, though.

I think the XPH was from before swift and immediate actions were invented, so there were no powers with a casting time shorter than 1 standard action. The way it is worded, I would take it as meaning that any dorje always takes the same action to actvate as the power it activates.
The XPH makes extensive use of swift and immediate actions.


EDIT: Teaches me not to leave tabs open.

[Khatoblepas]

I have a very pertinent question.

How does Metaconcert actually work? Is the mental entity an actual entity? How many actions does the Conductor have? Does it have to spend actions to manifest powers through the Metaconcert? Can the participants of a metaconcert manifest powers on their own? Can you target the mental entity?

Can the other nine members of a metaconcert stand underneath the canopy of an oak tree and have the conductor carry an acorn of far travel to metaconcert at a vast distance?

[Psyren]

How do ardents work with power completion and power trigger items? Do they have a very restricted set of options based on mantles, or can they use anything that's on any mantle?

It's ambiguous. I would personally restrict them to mantles they possess (there is really no "Ardent list") but you could just as easily justify any power printed on (or swapped into) a mantle.


I have a very pertinent question.

How does Metaconcert actually work? Is the mental entity an actual entity? How many actions does the Conductor have? Does it have to spend actions to manifest powers through the Metaconcert? Can the participants of a metaconcert manifest powers on their own? Can you target the mental entity?

Can the other nine members of a metaconcert stand underneath the canopy of an oak tree and have the conductor 0carry an acorn of far travel to metaconcert at a vast distance?

It's a very poorly-defined power. Before I go into, it I suggest you save yourself a lot of headache and just use the Pathfinder version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/m/metaconcert) instead, which is both much clearer to understand and much better-balanced.

Having said that, to answer your questions about the 3.5 version:

1) Yes, it creates an "entity" - however, this being lacks very crucial attributes from both a mechanical and flavor perspective. (Can it be targeted directly, or even detected? Does it count as a creature for the purposes of effects like Teleport or Rope Trick? Can it use touch powers, powers that rely on speaking like Psionic Suggestion, powers that change its form like Metamorphosis, etc.? And what happens if it does? And so on.) Ultimately, if you insist on using this version of the power you'll have to come to an accord with your DM on what exactly the entity is capable of doing and how it does it.

2) Yes, the entity has its own actions to manifest with. Presumably, the conductor (and indeed, every manifester in the concert) also retain their own actions to manifest with - and since none of them need to concentrate on the power, they are free to do so. Note however that the entity "can't take more actions than a normal individual" which arguably rules out any form of action economy on the entity's part, such as manifesting during a Temporal Acceleration or Twinning a Synchronicity.

3) As above - yes, nothing by RAW stops the concertgoers from manifesting separately (aside from running out of PP or something.) Even the conductor is under no special restriction, as the action or actions s/he needs to command the entity are not specified.

4) Interesting fact about the Acorn - although you are indeed considered to be standing under the oak tree's canopy with the rest of the group, you are also actually outside of their 20-foot radius. Effectively, for mechanical purposes, you are in two places at once. Unfortunately, all metaconcert checks for is "are you outside" - which you are, even if you are simultaneously considered to be inside. Using this reading, a DM could justify kicking you out of the pool.

[Mithril Leaf]

It's a very poorly-defined power. Before I go into, it I suggest you save yourself a lot of headache and just use the Pathfinder version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/m/metaconcert) instead, which is both much clearer to understand and much better-balanced.

Alternatively, if using pathfinder leaves a bad taste in your mouth, the 3.5 DSP (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/metaconcert) version is basically the same.

[Psyren]

Alternatively, if using pathfinder leaves a bad taste in your mouth, the 3.5 DSP (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/metaconcert) version is basically the same.

Good point, as that version mentions XP costs while the PF version (for obvious reasons) does not.

[Gotterdammerung]

Do psions have any buffs they can put on allies? Looking through the powers, they all seem to be either targeted at enemies or have only personal range.

They have a few. And they also have powers that they can use to protect an ally like dampen power.

But they also have Soul Crystal power from magic of incarnum. This power can be used to allow allies to cast any of the psionic powers in your arsenal.

So in a way all psionic buffs could be put on allies.

It isn't very power point effecient, but psionics have working infinite power point tricks.

Some of them are sketchy tricks but at least 1 of them works without any hitches.

2 psions both using Midnight Augmentation (feat) linked to bestow power (power) with 2 essentia invested in the feat with a manifester lvl of 5 or higher can trade off casting bestow power to work up a net gain in power points with each casting. The higher the caster lvl the faster the free power points are accrued. The most reliable way to get the 2nd psion would be either a party member with a duplicate build, a cohort from leadership feat, or a thrall from a 1 lvl thrallherd dip.

[Yora]

What are the big differences between Psionics Unleashed and the XPH rules?

[Psyren]

What are the big differences between Psionics Unleashed and the XPH rules?

My handbook covers most of it, though it's under construction still. The big changes were from converting to Pathfinder in general, which meant doing things like:

- beefing up the races and classes to fit the assumed PF power level (the Soulknife especially benefited from this)
- removing XP costs from all powers. (For the more powerful/costly ones, material components were added in the form of specially treated crystal arrays or mind-focusing incense, but for others more creative limits were applied. For the really cheap ones the XP cost was simply removed.)
- changing what some status effects do, like confusion and negative levels, to fit their PF versions
- replacing all references to grappling, tripping etc. with the CMB/CMD system
- folding UPD into UMD and Psicraft into Spellcraft

The rest of it involved cleaning up poor wording in various powers and patching various exploits. They also rolled back of few of 3.5's more unnecessary nerfs, like the nerfs to Astral Construct and the Torc of Power Preservation.

[Yora]

Any important changes to specific powers that go beyond these system adjustments?

[Psyren]

Any important changes to specific powers that go beyond these system adjustments?

Yes, several. That section of my guide IS complete though, so I would check there for any specific power you're curious about.

The only one I didn't go in-depth on (yet) is Metamorphosis - like Polymorph, the difference between 3.5 and PF here was substantial enough to warrant its own section. In a nutshell though, Metamorphosis was altered to give you several menus of abilities to choose from (similar to how you would assemble an Astral Construct), with augmentation allowing you access to higher menus. What makes this interesting is that you can actually create your own monster, rather than emulating a specific one that has the collection of abilities you want.

If you want to discuss a specific power's changes in more detail, feel free to ask here.

[Rubik]

- removing XP costs from all powers. (For the more powerful/costly ones, material components were added in the form of specially treated crystal arrays or mind-focusing incense, but for others more creative limits were applied. For the really cheap ones the XP cost was simply removed.)So they took a system that is purely internal in nature and gave it material components?

Wonderful.


Yes, several. That section of my guide IS complete though, so I would check there for any specific power you're curious about.

The only one I didn't go in-depth on (yet) is Metamorphosis - like Polymorph, the difference between 3.5 and PF here was substantial enough to warrant its own section. In a nutshell though, Metamorphosis was altered to give you several menus of abilities to choose from (similar to how you would assemble an Astral Construct), with augmentation allowing you access to higher menus. What makes this interesting is that you can actually create your own monster, rather than emulating a specific one that has the collection of abilities you want.

If you want to discuss a specific power's changes in more detail, feel free to ask here.And it seems like they stole Lycanthromancer's Psionic Powers Revision ideas, too. Nice.

I know the guy IRL, I've have read his powers revision, and quite a lot of what DSP has done with psionics has been lifted directly from it. He hasn't gotten paid for his work, either.

[Psyren]

So they took a system that is purely internal in nature and gave it material components?

Wonderful.

Not for all powers that had XP components - but balancing something like Reality Revision without that would have been a nightmare. I would have liked it to stay wholly internal too - and for some powers, like Psychic Chirurgery and Psychic Reformation, they pulled that off - but XP costs simply don't exist in Pathfinder, so there were limits to what they could do.

Nothing's stopping you from reintroducing them at your table, though.



And it seems like they stole Lycanthromancer's Psionic Powers Revision ideas, too. Nice.

I know the guy IRL, I've have read his powers revision, and quite a lot of what DSP has done with psionics has been lifted directly from it. He hasn't gotten paid for his work, either.

Bacris (Jeremy) was a fixture on 339 back in the day too, so I'm not so inclined to simply take your word as to who stole what from who or who came up with what. Nor do I really think accusations of this nature are relevant to this thread.

[Norin]

Trying to learn this Psionic stuff.

For now i'm focusing on Psions and the general psionic manifester system.

Maybe it's obvious, but i still can not wrap my brain around what book i should concentrate on reading and learning first.

So far ive read most in Expanded Psionics Handbook. Should i disregard Complete Psionics or consider that one the same as i would Complete Mage\Arcane after reading PHB to learn how to play a wizard or sorcerer?

I see some things in the Psion guides about CPsi nerfing alot of stuff. Does CPsi overrule XPH, or is it just a supplement?

Sorry if i seem a bit dense in this Psi stuff, but i never bothered learning about it. I was busy playing mostly skillmonkeys and arcane casters. :smallwink:

Edit: Oh, we are playing 3.5, mostly in Faerun if that matters. No PF.

[Stouts]

For Psionics in Pathfinder, would you who have used it in game say that it's balanced with the first party material? After reading it over, my gut reaction is that

3/4 and Full BA Psi classes do tend to be more powerful than the ones from Paizo
This is due more to class cohesion rather than just having better or more abilities


I haven't seriously brought up bringing Psionics into my PF game, but casual discussion has brought up some power concern. Have you noticed this, or do the base and core classes seem like they're on even footing?

I really like DSP's take on the subject, but I probably won't be able to sell it if everyone has to play psi for anyone to play psi. So, is there a reason to play a rogue when you could play a cryptic?

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Trying to learn this Psionic stuff.

For now i'm focusing on Psions and the general psionic manifester system.

Maybe it's obvious, but i still can not wrap my brain around what book i should concentrate on reading and learning first.

So far ive read most in Expanded Psionics Handbook. Should i disregard Complete Psionics or consider that one the same as i would Complete Mage\Arcane after reading PHB to learn how to play a wizard or sorcerer?

I see some things in the Psion guides about CPsi nerfing alot of stuff. Does CPsi overrule XPH, or is it just a supplement?

Sorry if i seem a bit dense in this Psi stuff, but i never bothered learning about it. I was busy playing mostly skillmonkeys and arcane casters. :smallwink:

Edit: Oh, we are playing 3.5, mostly in Faerun if that matters. No PF.

CPsi is a normal supplement, which supplements like supplements tend to do. However, it revises some of the powers from XPH. Some revisions for the best, most (according to many) for the worst. These revisions overrule XPH, but in the end it is of course the DM that decides! :smallsmile:

[Norin]

Thanks. That's what i suspected, just had to ask.

Where can i read more about so called pp recharge tricks?

[subject42]

I really like DSP's take on the subject, but I probably won't be able to sell it if everyone has to play psi for anyone to play psi. So, is there a reason to play a rogue when you could play a cryptic?

Let's break down class by class:


Psychic Warrior: This class can easily overshadow a rogue in combat, especially if you're the kind of group that only has one to three encounters per in-game day. It's skill list isn't as pronounced, however, and it tends to lag behind the rogue in social encounters or puzzle situations. Mostly, you should think of it as a Monk-done-right.
Soulknife: Outside of the "Gifted Blade" archetype, the Soulknife is largely on par with the fighter, or maybe a little better, probably putting it around the level of a Barbarian. It gets more skill points and its mind blade can help bypass WBL, but it's very feat starved. The Gifted Blade changes the story entirely.
Cryptic: I haven't been in a game with a Cryptic yet, so I can't speak to it.
Dread: I haven't seen a dread, either, but it seems like it's more or less on par with a highly combat-focused Bard.
Tactician: Tacticians are extremely powerful, like psion powerful. 9th level manifesting along with 3/4s BAB and lots of class features? That's pushing it up into sorcerer-equivalent territory.
Aegis: This class is better at what it wants to do (be defensive) than any core class, but that's not because the Aegis is great. It's more that all of the core classes are terrible at the same niche. It's better than a fighter at being fighty, and it's more flexible than a Barbarian, but after that it blends in nicely.

[Psyren]

For Psionics in Pathfinder, would you who have used it in game say that it's balanced with the first party material? After reading it over, my gut reaction is that

3/4 and Full BA Psi classes do tend to be more powerful than the ones from Paizo
This is due more to class cohesion rather than just having better or more abilities


I haven't seriously brought up bringing Psionics into my PF game, but casual discussion has brought up some power concern. Have you noticed this, or do the base and core classes seem like they're on even footing?

I really like DSP's take on the subject, but I probably won't be able to sell it if everyone has to play psi for anyone to play psi. So, is there a reason to play a rogue when you could play a cryptic?

I'd say the main issue you have to watch out for in a PF psionics campaign is the same one you have to watch out for in 3.5 - namely, not enough encounters per day. Psions can focus their output on their highest level abilities in ways that traditional spellcasters can't, because they don't rely on "slots." Doing so will burn their resources up, but if there are only 2-3 small fights per day, they can do this without fear and end up seeming overpowered as a result. A large part of this is psychological too - a wizard or cleric isn't going to fire off their highest-level spell in the first encounter of the day unless they absolutely have to, because they're afraid of what else you might have up your sleeve to throw at them. The Psion player though can put the first encounter to bed quickly if it looks even slightly troublesome, because he knows that if there's another tough fight later he can do it again, and if there isn't he can fall back on cheaper powers.

So long as you avoid that snag, they are comparable in power to PF casters; A Psychic Warrior is about even with a Magus, a Psion is no more powerful than a Wizard, a Wilder is no more powerful than a Sorcerer etc.

To answer your more specific question, comparing Rogue to Cryptic isn't really fair; rogues are more the "entry-level" skillmonkey, lacking the options available to more powerful ones like a Bard, Alchemist or even Ninja; the Cryptic is more in line power-wise with those three, and was intended to be. So saying it's more powerful than rogue isn't really a knock against the system as a whole.

(Also, Cryptics are more of a rogue/warlock hybrid.)

[Autopsibiofeeder]

I'd say the main issue you have to watch out for in a PF psionics campaign is the same one you have to watch out for in 3.5 - namely, not enough encounters per day. Psions can focus their output on their highest level abilities in ways that traditional spellcasters can't, because they don't rely on "slots." Doing so will burn their resources up, but if there are only 2-3 small fights per day, they can do this without fear and end up seeming overpowered as a result. A large part of this is psychological too - a wizard or cleric isn't going to fire off their highest-level spell in the first encounter of the day unless they absolutely have to, because they're afraid of what else you might have up your sleeve to throw at them. The Psion player though can put the first encounter to bed quickly if it looks even slightly troublesome, because he knows that if there's another tough fight later he can do it again, and if there isn't he can fall back on cheaper powers.

<snip>

Funny thing is, while I agree with your assessment, I myself tend to be very conservative with my power points when I play psionic characters. Even when I know that the DM is likely to challenge me no more than 2 to 3 times per day. I guess that's a character trait of mine, but I will always prevent running out of PP's. With vancian casters I have that to a much lesser degree, because (in my experience) they have much more 'virtual PP' and their spells tend to scale without the added cost of augments.

A psion not only can put out many (relatively) high-PP manifestations in a day but, because of the way the system works, they also often have to.

EDIT: this issue gets less and less important at really high levels.

[Psyren]

I'm conservative too1, but it's as much out of a desire to be as efficient as possible and avoid potentially hogging the limelight as it is fear of the unknown.

1Except with Wilders - Wilders are fun. Surge ALL the powers!

[Autopsibiofeeder]

The psionic sandwich. Not found in the MM, but a monster in its own right!

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Thanks. That's what i suspected, just had to ask.

Where can i read more about so called pp recharge tricks?

The book you want to focus on at first is definitely the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Due note that for Faerûn, psionics is kinda different, though for ease of use your DM may decide to bin that aspect of the setting.

As far as the PP recharge tricks, the Psionic Tricks Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177889) is linked in Psyren's sig (as well as my own). The trick tends to be fiddling with Bestow Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bestowPower.htm) such that you have a net gain in PP received from manifesting it. I would caution against whipping that out on an unsuspecting DM - we don't need (more) people thinking Psionics is broken (when compared to Arcane and Divine magic, natch).

[Mithril Leaf]

The book you want to focus on at first is definitely the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Due note that for Faerûn, psionics is kinda different, though for ease of use your DM may decide to bin that aspect of the setting.

To add to this, if you want a nice middle ground between the pathfinder psionic system and the XPH, Dreamscarred Press has an SRD (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/) of their updated material that I personally find a good supplement to be layered on top of CPsi and the XPH as follows:
XPH; Base system, everything new
All other books with powers; New powers, new over XPH
CPsi; Higher level, takes precedent over XPH and other books
DSP-SRD; Highest level, takes precedent over CPsi

I find that this system works quite well.

[Norin]

For example, I am lvl 5 psion - Can i use Time Hop to make a creature hop forward less than 1rd/per level? As in, can i make the creature hop 2 rounds forward instead of 5?

Let's assume the creature fails all will saves and has no power/spell resistance.

[TuggyNE]

For example, I am lvl 5 psion - Can i use Time Hop to make a creature hop forward less than 1rd/per level? As in, can i make the creature hop 2 rounds forward instead of 5?

Let's assume the creature fails all will saves and has no power/spell resistance.

You could dispel the power, auto-succeeding on your check.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

You could dispel the power, auto-succeeding on your check.

How can you dispel something that's not there?

[Norin]

How can you dispel something that's not there?

You can not end the Time Hop prematurely (before the 1 round/level) at your own will?


Another question:
How can i gain more number of Psionic Focui if i already have Psicrystal Affinity? (Let's assume i do not want (or can not use) Psychic Weapon Master.)

[TuggyNE]

How can you dispel something that's not there?

Derp. Hmm… Delay Power'd dispel psionics, set for standard action activation? Not sure, but it seems that might work.


You can not end the Time Hop prematurely (before the 1 round/level) at your own will?

No. It's not dismissible.


How can i gain more number of Psionic Focui if i already have Psicrystal Affinity? (Let's assume i do not want (or can not use) Psychic Weapon Master.)

Psionic focuses are one of the biggest designed-in limiting factors, so there are few or no ways to get extra ones short of epic rules.

That said, there is probably some way to do it short of severe cheese.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

You can not end the Time Hop prematurely (before the 1 round/level) at your own will?


Another question:
How can i gain more number of Psionic Focui if i already have Psicrystal Affinity? (Let's assume i do not want (or can not use) Psychic Weapon Master.)

It does not have the (D) behind the duration, so I guess not. The (D) behind the duration line in spell/power descriptions indicates that one can dismiss the effect. One would have to dispel it, but targeting a spell effect that has left existence for 5 rounds seems problematic to me.

[Yora]

Can't you always cast spells and manifest powers at a lower caster level, as long as it's at least the minimum level required to cast the spell?

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Can't you always cast spells and manifest powers at a lower caster level, as long as it's at least the minimum level required to cast the spell?

That would not help in this case, as it is a 3rd level power. So, the minimum number of rounds would always be 5, right?

EDIT: But yes, I guess this would allow an 8th level manifester to hop someone for 5 rounds instead of 8 (but no less).

[Norin]

So if you use Time Hop as a lvl 15 Psion, you can chose to manifest it as a lvl 5 psion (at same PP cost) and get the 5 rounds of duration or even as 10th lvl psion for 10 rounds?

(Edit: Just for the sake of argument. I'm not sure how this would be useful, i'm just curious about how it works really.)

[Lonely Tylenol]

So, mention has been made here of powers from Complete Psionics updating, and thus replacing, powers from Expanded Psionics Handbook (and the SRD psionics).

Is there a list of the powers that were updated anywhere? A side-by-side comparison chart, perhaps? I'd be more than happy with just a list, although an update summary (the "patch notes") would be great as well.

Also: were there any other books, besides Complete Psionics and Expanded Psionics Handbook, that had actual powers printed in them? Maybe a list of these (or at least the noteworthy ones), as well? Or at least the books they were released in? I was always of the impression that these were basically the only ones... But then, Warlocks get invocations in no less than six official first-party books (and they aren't even as well-supported).

[Autopsibiofeeder]

So if you use Time Hop as a lvl 15 Psion, you can chose to manifest it as a lvl 5 psion (at same PP cost) and get the 5 rounds of duration or even as 10th lvl psion for 10 rounds?

(Edit: Just for the sake of argument. I'm not sure how this would be useful, i'm just curious about how it works really.)

Yes. I am assuming that this general rule for casters also applies to manifesters, because I can not see why it wouldn't.

However, if you augment the power to affect a large creature (for 2 PP) the minimum duration would become 7, since you need ML7 to pull that off.

[Yora]

Also: were there any other books, besides Complete Psionics and Expanded Psionics Handbook, that had actual powers printed in them?
A lot! But mostly it was just 4 or 5 powers per book, shoved behind the spells from all kinds of splatbooks.

[Psyren]

So if you use Time Hop as a lvl 15 Psion, you can chose to manifest it as a lvl 5 psion (at same PP cost) and get the 5 rounds of duration or even as 10th lvl psion for 10 rounds?

(Edit: Just for the sake of argument. I'm not sure how this would be useful, i'm just curious about how it works really.)

Correct:

"You can manifest a power at a lower manifester level than normal, but the manifester level must be high enough for you to manifest the power in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same manifester level."


So, mention has been made here of powers from Complete Psionics updating, and thus replacing, powers from Expanded Psionics Handbook (and the SRD psionics).

Is there a list of the powers that were updated anywhere? A side-by-side comparison chart, perhaps? I'd be more than happy with just a list, although an update summary (the "patch notes") would be great as well.

Yeah, that should be easy to put together. I'll even use the same format as my handbook.

CPsi updated powers summary (buffs, nerfs.)


Astral Construct: You can only have one at a time.

Crystal Shard (et al.): Powers that deal typed physical damage (slashing, piercing, bludgeoning) are now subject to DR.

Dimension Door: New augments were added.
1) You can manifest it as a full-round action; doing so reduces the PP cost by 2.
2) You can also reduce the cost by 2 more to teleport a shorter distance (20ft.)
3) You can even combine both of these augments to manifest it as a 2nd-level power (3 PP total.) Unfortunately, you still can't learn it early. Note: for the same cost, you can move exactly the same distance with Dimension Hop - as a swift action - so I would just get that instead, but this is useful for classes that have DD on their list.
4) You can spend 2 more PP to dazzle all enemies within 10 ft. of your starting location. (Unfortunately, dazzle sucks.)
5) The "move-action augment" is unchanged.

Energy Missile/Stun: The augment's effect on the DC was cut in half (2 PP for +1 DC.)

Another change was the way that powers are manifested from power stones.

[Norin]

Some online stuff here:

New Feats and Powers (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723c)

The mind's Eye complete list of online stuffs (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/psi)

[Yora]

Energy Missile/Stun: The augment's effect on the DC was cut in half (2 PP for +1 DC.)
Though in this case, I am one of the people who consider this a correction of a typo in the XPH. (Why it's not in the errata-ed SRD is a mystery.)

Question: Am I correct that in PF Psionics, you regain your psionic focus without making any check? Just taking a full-round action doing nothing?

[Norin]

True or false: Swift Concentration skill trick from Complete Scoundrel will make regaining psionic focus a swift action.

(My bet is false - it only works on maintaining a concentration check, not making a check to get psionic focus back after expending it.)

The closest i get to quickly regaining Psi Focus is the Psionic Meditation feat?

[Yora]

Swift Concentration says "You can maintain concentration on a spell...". And making a concentration check is something entirely different.

[Norin]

Swift Concentration says "You can maintain concentration on a spell...". And making a concentration check is something entirely different.

It does indeed. Now i can lay that topic of discussion to rest then. Thanks!

[Psyren]

Question: Am I correct that in PF Psionics, you regain your psionic focus without making any check? Just taking a full-round action doing nothing?

Correct. In addition, you can focus even if your PP are all gone. (In 3.5, you needed to have at least 1 PP to gain focus.)



The closest i get to quickly regaining Psi Focus is the Psionic Meditation feat?

That + Hustle will let you focus as a swift. In addition, focusing is a purely mental action, so your Schism can do it too, or the Synad's Multitask.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Someone asked about powers in places other than CPsi? Most of the powers in CPsi are reprints of powers from earlier sources. A compiled list of powers from previous sources that didn't include the ones updated by CPsi would be short indeed.

However, there's some eberron specific material that includes powers found nowhere else, particularly secrets of sarlona.

[TopCheese]

So I need to say thank you, to everyone here on this thread.

I never got into psionics till I read this the other day... I then made a Warforged Psion and so far it may be my favorite character created and the psion (in theory) is creeping up to becoming my favorite casting class.

I still need to play one in a IRL game (using this one in a skype game, no video) so I can really get into it.

I have yet to look into PF Psionic but if they are made by a third party they might be able to impress me (paizo has yet to do that no matter how much I love the barbarian).

I certainly do see why people think Power Points should replace Spell Slots.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

I was just wondering: How do you guys read the Mantled Wilder ACF? I hear people sometimes saying it is actually good, but the bolded part really puts me off.


Your focus allows you access to a psionic mantle.
Level: 1st and see below.
Replaces: You lose your elude touch class ability; also see below.

Benefit: You gain access to a single psionic mantle from Complete Psionic. You replace the elude touch class ability at 2nd level with the mantle's granted ability and gain access to the powers on the mantle list. In fact you must take those powers at your first opportunity. If you chose the Creation mantle, you would have to learn astral construct and minor creation at 1st and 2nd level, for example. You are free to choose all other powers from the psion/wilder list.

This means that by choosing a mantle, you have immediately chosen at least half of your powers known. That strikes me as wrong, so I am assuming I am reading this wrong. Enlighten me!

[Yora]

The text really goes out of its way to make absolutely sure that people get this important piece of information by repeating it three times with different words. I really don't see how this could be read differently.

[Psyren]

Who did you hear say it was good? I think it's terrible, for exactly the reason you quoted. (You also lose Elude Touch for this.)

Were you perhaps thinking of Mantled Warrior/Mantled Erudite, which don't have that clause?

EDIT:


So I need to say thank you, to everyone here on this thread.

*bows*
*motions furiously for other contributors to bow*

[Autopsibiofeeder]

No, I believe it is mentioned in the handbooks as a decent option. I never thought it was anywhere near decent, so this thread motivated me to put it out there and see whether I had missed something (in the text, some errata or ruling I was unaware of). Apparently not :smallsmile:.

I will just carry on trying to build a seer that wants to enter the constructor prestige class!

Edit: *bows*

[Reprimand]

When you take expanded knowledge in PF Psionics unleashed are you allowed to take powers from say Telepath special list and take schism on a Wilder? It does say in the feat that you can take from other lists. So I'm a bit conflicted on what this means.

[Yora]

Yes, it does say in the feat that you can. So you can do it. :smalltongue:

But only for the bonus power known you get from the feat. All the other new powers you gain from getting new levels of wilder still have to be on the wilder list.

[Psyren]

Expanded Knowledge is the same in PF and 3.5 - it only cares about power level, not the list you get the power from, nor even whether it is specific to a single discipline or PrC.

[Reprimand]

Okay! Awesome! Thanks guys!

[Kuulvheysoon]

I was just wondering: How do you guys read the Mantled Wilder ACF? I hear people sometimes saying it is actually good, but the bolded part really puts me off.

This means that by choosing a mantle, you have immediately chosen at least half of your powers known. That strikes me as wrong, so I am assuming I am reading this wrong. Enlighten me!


Who did you hear say it was good? I think it's terrible, for exactly the reason you quoted. (You also lose Elude Touch for this.)

Were you perhaps thinking of Mantled Warrior/Mantled Erudite, which don't have that clause?

I could see it being alright... if you went with that Ardent option that let you pick and choose (related) powers to form your own mantle.

[Psyren]

I could see it being alright... if you went with that Ardent option that let you pick and choose (related) powers to form your own mantle.

Well, the key phrase there is Ardent option, i.e. they're the only ones who can actually do that without even more DM fiat.

But yeah, if you can mix and match your mantle it won't matter so much that you're preferentially locked into it.

[Norin]

I was skimming a bit through the Psionic items in XPH. I could have overlooked the obvious of course, but i wonder:

Any psionic items that lets me use Metapsionics? Kind of like a metamagic rod for psi?

[Rubik]

I was skimming a bit through the Psionic items in XPH. I could have overlooked the obvious of course, but i wonder:

Any psionic items that lets me use Metapsionics? Kind of like a metamagic rod for psi?According to magic/psionics transparency, items that could conceivably affect psionics DO affect psionics. So buy yourself some metamagic rods and have at it.

[Norin]

Not sure how that would fly in Faerun where psionics are not part of the Weave. Any input?

[Psyren]

According to magic/psionics transparency, items that could conceivably affect psionics DO affect psionics. So buy yourself some metamagic rods and have at it.

Sadly, that doesn't work. All metamagic rods actually do is let you use the associated metamagic feat - and those feats do nothing to psionic powers. For example, a Rod of Quicken doesn't let you "cast a spell as a swift action" - it lets you use Quicken Spell.

[meemaas]

That sounds like something we should suggest to Dreamscarred Press for new items. Never even thought about it until now.

[Norin]

This means i am "stuck" with applying a maximum of 2 metapsionic effects to my power through expending both mine and my psicrystals focus? (as a psion)

[meemaas]

Just about. There's an occasional class feature that might help. Namely, in the case of pathfinder psionics, the Psicrystal imprinter.

It allows you to manifest the power as a full round action through your psicrystal, and apply (only) one of four specific metapsionic feats to the power.

Although there is a feat in the pipeline for Ultimate Psionics that should allow you to add more options to that.

[subject42]

That sounds like something we should suggest to Dreamscarred Press for new items. Never even thought about it until now.

Dreamscarred Press actually debated metapsionic rods early in the development of the Pathfinder material, but decided against them due to how horrifically unbalancing metamagics tend to get, as well as the fact that psionics aren't just spellpoints.

[meemaas]

You learn something new every day. Go figure i wouldn't know that though. I've only really jumped on the psionics bandwagon in the past 6 months or so, since they released Psionics Expanded.

[Psyren]

Agreed, even with "only" two foci, metapsionics are fine as-is. Casters don't need any more help imo :smalltongue:

Another way to get a third focus is with the Planar Vanguard PrC from Mind's Eye. It's 3.0, but all the prereqs are still in 3.5, and it's 9/10 manifesting.

[meemaas]

Same with Psicrystal Imprinter for Pathfinder. Its capstone is to give the Psicrystal a focus of its own, that stacks with and is independent of one granted by Psicrystal Containment. Better yet, the crystal can focus that one with its own actions instead of yours.

[Norin]

Thanks for all the help so far. (::) <--- psicrystal cookie for you! ;)


would this be a wrong place to ask for some general psion build advice btw? I have some feats and such set up an wonder if im on the wrong path or not.

[meemaas]

Personally, the only wrong path for a psion is having a 9 or lower into score.

[Psyren]

Have you read Saeomon's handbook? Most of my recommendations/advice would just mirror what's in that. (In particular, there's a list of threats in there that every primary caster should have an answer to that I find very helpful in all my builds, not just psionic ones.)

[Norin]

Have you read Saeomon's handbook? Most of my recommendations/advice would just mirror what's in that. (In particular, there's a list of threats in there that every primary caster should have an answer to that I find very helpful in all my builds, not just psionic ones.)

Yeah, i have, and i love it. :smallbiggrin:

Say, if i want to manifest powers with a bit of "jedi or sith" flavour, would a Kineticist be my best bet?

I'm thinking to (extend?) Inertial Armour, use Psionic Fly or Levitate, blast some Energy bolt\missile\push with the Electricity or Sonic energy type, Telekinetic Manouver\Thrust\Force, etc.

If i overchannel and augment these things i could do some pretty impressive looking things with my mind when i gain some levels.

This would of course be more of a caster than melee flavoured char, or else i should probably go for PsiWar i guess.

If i make this char id be starting at 6th lvl i think.
Feat selection could be something like this for up to mid level:



Psion 1 - Psionic body, Psicrystal Affinity (bonus), Improved init (Human. Is this worth it?)
Psion 2
Psion 3 - Psicrystal Containment (For that sweet second focus. Do i need this as early as this?)
Psion 4
Psion 5 - Overchannel
Psion 6 - Talented
Psion 7
Psion 8
Psion 9 - Empower Power
Psion 10 - Psionic Meditation (For that nice quick focus gain)
Psion 11
Psion 12 - Extend Power (Should i take this earlier to use on buffs?)
Psion 13
Psion 14
Psion 15 - Feat and Bonus Feat
Psion 16
Psion 17
Psion 18 - Feat
Psion 19
Psion 20 - Bonus Feat



Any suggestions?

Stat wise i max my int and every level stat up goes here, get 13 wis and at least 14 con, the rest is not very important i guess. Maybe some dex for a bit of reflex and AC.

As far as items goes i'm thinking a Cognizance Crystal with as much PP storage i can afford and still be able to grab some other mundane things.

[Rubik]

As far as items goes i'm thinking a Cognizance Crystal with as much PP storage i can afford and still be able to grab some other mundane things.Ignore cognizance crystals. They're horrifically overpriced and don't recharge without you charging them. Try some pearls of power. They do. That, or some +1 manifesting arrows for +5 pp each, for a very low price.

[Norin]

Pearls of Power, as in the well known arcane\divine spellcaster item?
-If so, i'm not sure thay work for psions in Faerun.

-If not, where can i find manifester versions that give me PP?

[Rubik]

Pearls of Power, as in the well known arcane\divine spellcaster item?
-If so, i'm not sure thay work for psions in Faerun.

-If not, where can i find manifester versions that give me PP?Once again, the psionics/magic transparency rules. It even lists those explicitly.

And if you can't use a metamagic rod because it gives you a metaMAGIC feat, just take the magic mantle. It explicitly makes magic and psionics identical, even more so than regular transparency. If you can't figure out the pp/spell slot conversion rate, then perhaps D&D isn't the game for you.

[Psyren]

If i make this char id be starting at 6th lvl i think.
Feat selection could be something like this for up to mid level:



Psion 1 - Psionic body, Psicrystal Affinity (bonus), Improved init (Human. Is this worth it?)
Psion 2
Psion 3 - Psicrystal Containment (For that sweet second focus. Do i need this as early as this?)
Psion 4
Psion 5 - Overchannel
Psion 6 - Talented
Psion 7
Psion 8
Psion 9 - Empower Power
Psion 10 - Psionic Meditation (For that nice quick focus gain)
Psion 11
Psion 12 - Extend Power (Should i take this earlier to use on buffs?)
Psion 13
Psion 14
Psion 15 - Feat and Bonus Feat
Psion 16
Psion 17
Psion 18 - Feat
Psion 19
Psion 20 - Bonus Feat



Any suggestions?

Yes:

1) You don't really need psicrystal containment until after you get some metapsionics, so get those first. Do get your psicrystal early (the initiative/save/skill bonus is invaluable at low levels), but hold off on the others - it's silly to have two foci early on and no use for either of them.

2) Overchannel and Talented, if you want them at all, should come very early - level 1 or close to it if you can. A Talented Overchanneled power can 1-shot a nasty enemy without hurting you, and potentially save your bacon in a bad situation. Remember that blasting is only effective if it isn't taking you multiple rounds to kill a monster, because a monster at 1 HP is just as dangerous as one at full. What's more, Talented will apply to all your powers at low levels.

2) You need a lot of psionic feats to make Psionic Body worthwhile, and metapsionic feats don't count by RAW. I would just stick with Vigor and get something else with that feat slot.

3) Improved Initiative is always worth it, though you might be able to hold off on it early on and pick it up later. It even stacks with a Nimble Psicrystal for +6 before stats and buffs.

4) Get Extend before Empower. Empower isn't crucial, get it if you feel like it but other MP feats are more generally useful (see below.)

5) You should try to get Linked Power and Metapower. Get Quicken Power as well.

6) Plan on 2-3 Expanded Knowledges for useful powers. If you want to be a Kineticist, you'll want Metamorphosis and Astral Construct at a minimum (the latter gives you and the rest of the party lots of other utility like disposable flankers, flying/swimming mounts etc) and consider other beneficial powers like Teleport and Plane Shift.



As far as items goes i'm thinking a Cognizance Crystal with as much PP storage i can afford and still be able to grab some other mundane things.

Remember that you can only pay for powers out of one source at a time. This makes cognizance crystals less useful. I'd pick up a Torc of Power Preservation first.


Pearls of Power, as in the well known arcane\divine spellcaster item?
-If so, i'm not sure thay work for psions in Faerun.

-If not, where can i find manifester versions that give me PP?

Pearls of Power function as cognizance crystals of the appropriate level. It's unclear whether you have to manually charge that version or whether they refresh every day for you like they do for spellcasters, so check with your DM.



And if you can't use a metamagic rod because it gives you a metaMAGIC feat, just take the magic mantle. It explicitly makes magic and psionics identical, even more so than regular transparency. If you can't figure out the pp/spell slot conversion rate, then perhaps D&D isn't the game for you.

Note that "super-transparency" is not the only possible reading of the Magic Mantle thanks to the parenthetical statement accompanying it, so this too is a DM call.

If it is allowed, you will need a class dip or to be an Egoist (True Healer ACF) to gain access to mantles as a Psion. Or simply switch to (Mantled) Erudite.

[Norin]

Once again, the psionics/magic transparency rules. It even lists those explicitly.

And if you can't use a metamagic rod because it gives you a metaMAGIC feat, just take the magic mantle. It explicitly makes magic and psionics identical, even more so than regular transparency. If you can't figure out the pp/spell slot conversion rate, then perhaps D&D isn't the game for you.

Haha, that last bit there was nice.

No, what i am saying is that things are a bit different when it comes to psionics in Faerûn, and i'm curious as to how transparent it actualy is. A pearl of power, designed for a spellcaster, will manipulate or use the weave in a way. Psionic manifesting, is not using the weave. See?

Thanks for being nice about it though. :smallwink:

[Norin]

Yes:

1) You don't really need psicrystal containment until after you get some metapsionics, so get those first. Do get your psicrystal early (the initiative/save/skill bonus is invaluable at low levels), but hold off on the others - it's silly to have two foci early on and no use for either of them.

2) Overchannel and Talented, if you want them at all, should come very early - level 1 or close to it if you can. A Talented Overchanneled power can 1-shot a nasty enemy without hurting you, and potentially save your bacon in a bad situation. Remember that blasting is only effective if it isn't taking you multiple rounds to kill a monster, because a monster at 1 HP is just as dangerous as one at full. What's more, Talented will apply to all your powers at low levels.

2) You need a lot of psionic feats to make Psionic Body worthwhile, and metapsionic feats don't count by RAW. I would just stick with Vigor and get something else with that feat slot.

3) Improved Initiative is always worth it, though you might be able to hold off on it early on and pick it up later. It even stacks with a Nimble Psicrystal for +6 before stats and buffs.

4) Get Extend before Empower. Empower isn't crucial, get it if you feel like it but other MP feats are more generally useful (see below.)

5) You should try to get Linked Power and Metapower. Get Quicken Power as well.

6) Plan on 2-3 Expanded Knowledges for useful powers. If you want to be a Kineticist, you'll want Metamorphosis and Astral Construct at a minimum (the latter gives you and the rest of the party lots of other utility like disposable flankers, flying/swimming mounts etc) and consider other beneficial powers like Teleport and Plane Shift.


1: True enough. I just stuffed it in there because i'm not starting at 1st lvl, just to have it covered. Might as well take it later when i actualy have some metapsi to use it on.

2: I counted +int to hp at 1st + 12hp at lvl 10. I guess it's a bit of a waste compared to Vigor.

3: Yeah, i like to go first (especially on casters) and that nimble personality was on my mind too. ;)

4: Extend seems to give me alot of mileage on the ac\dr\etc buffs.

5: Linked power was interesting. Metapower looks decent too... just got no idea what power to stick it to. Quicken, got to love being quick! Of course i need that.

6: Thanks. Is kineticist even up my alley fluffwise for that kind of character? Or would another dicipline be better?



Remember that you can only pay for powers out of one source at a time. This makes cognizance crystals less useful. I'd pick up a Torc of Power Preservation first.

Pearls of Power function as cognizance crystals of the appropriate level. It's unclear whether you have to manually charge that version or whether they refresh every day for you like they do for spellcasters, so check with your DM.

Good points, thanks.

[Psyren]

It's very, very poorly defined just how psionics is different from magic in Faerun. Each manifester is their own Weave, but the only mechanical benefit to that is that Mystra can't turn off their powers if she feels like it.

In Faerun, psionics still rely on the Weave to affect the world. So AMF and dead magic areas - holes in the Weave - will still affect them, as will spell resistance. In short, transparency.

As for Pearls of Power, they work for you by RAW; justify it however you need to. Maybe the specific method of their construction makes them ideal for storing psionic energy, maybe psions just learned how to bend some items designed for mages to their own purposes in a world where spellcasters outnumber manifesters significantly. It's not explained, nor does it ultimately matter.

[Norin]

It's very, very poorly defined just how psionics is different from magic in Faerun. Each manifester is their own Weave, but the only mechanical benefit to that is that Mystra can't turn off their powers if she feels like it.

In Faerun, psionics still rely on the Weave to affect the world. So AMF and dead magic areas - holes in the Weave - will still affect them, as will spell resistance. In short, transparency.

As for Pearls of Power, they work for you by RAW; justify it however you need to. Maybe the specific method of their construction makes them ideal for storing psionic energy, maybe psions just learned how to bend some items designed for mages to their own purposes in a world where spellcasters outnumber manifesters significantly. It's not explained, nor does it ultimately matter.

That explains it a bit better, thanks for being patient with a psionic n00b.

Both me and my current DM\group never dabbled alot in psionics so this is all a bit new to us. We have alot of experience between us with other casters both divine and arcane though, but me and a fellow player is trying to learn this stuff now and it all looks very good to me thus far.

I think i love psionics. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

5: Linked power was interesting. Metapower looks decent too... just got no idea what power to stick it to.

Can't go wrong with Astral Construct. Synchronicity, Dimension Hop, Energy Stun, even Vigor - anything you plan on manifesting in every combat, that can benefit from metapsionics and that can be augmented in some way is a good choice.



6: Thanks. Is kineticist even up my alley fluffwise for that kind of character? Or would another dicipline be better?

Kineticists are like Evokers - unnecessary. Psions can blast just fine no matter what their discipline is. (PF changed this though, making Kineticists much more worthwhile.)

I can't comment on your fluff as you didn't really tell me what it is.

[Norin]

Fluff - I mentioned sort of a force user. A jedi or sith maybe. Not a warrior\swordsman type, but more of a caster version.

Edit, i should probably not hijack this thread as much as ive done lately. :P

[Psyren]

Fluff - I mentioned sort of a force user. A jedi or sith maybe. Not a warrior\swordsman type, but more of a caster version.

Edit, i should probably not hijack this thread as much as ive done lately. :P

Oh right, you did mention that. Well, the "move things with my mind" powers (TK Thrust, Force and Maneuver) are all on the general list, so you don't need to be a Kineticist for that reason either. And then Energy Cone can mimic Force Lightning, Suggestion can do the Mind Trick etc.

As far as a hijack, I think the questions were pretty simple/general, but if you feel more comfortable starting a thread you could do that too.

[Clericzilla]

So while making a Warforged Psion and Ardent my friend and I came across the feat "Rapid Metabolism".

If you give this to a Warforged (or really anything else that doesn't heal naturally) then do they gain anything from it? The way I see it...

Option A (1): The Warforged has no natural healing. You replace "0" natural healing with what the feat gives you which is "the standard healing rate + double constitution bonus". This standard healing is not the race's (warforged) but the general rule of 1 hp/character level.

Option A (2): The Warforged has no natural healing. You replace "0" natural healing with what the feat gives you which is "the standard healing rate + double constitution bonus". This standard is the is the warforged standard healing rate "0".

Option B: The Warforged has no natural healing. This means that it isn't so much "0" as it is the inability to use this feature. You have nothing to give up to gain the use of this feat and therefore you can't take this feat (well you can but it does you no good).

Was this ever addressed in one of the supplemental book or perhaps an errata?

[Yora]

I think option B seems to be the most likely. I think that's how such situations are usually handled.

Another question: If I give a create psi-like abilities, can it automatically augment all its psi-like powers to any power point cost no greater than its manifenster level, even though it doesn't actually have or pay power points?

[subject42]

Another question: If I give a create psi-like abilities, can it automatically augment all its psi-like powers to any power point cost no greater than its manifenster level, even though it doesn't actually have or pay power points?

I can't speak for 3.5, but in Pathfinder all psi-like abilities are assumed to be augmented to their maximum point:



When a creature uses a psi-like ability, the power is manifested as if the creature had spent a number of power points equal to its manifester level, which may augment the power to improve its damage or save DC.

[Cog]

I can't speak for 3.5, but in Pathfinder all psi-like abilities are assumed to be augmented to their maximum point:
That's true in 3.5. You can sort of tease it out from the wording in the SRD stuff, but I think CPsi made it explicit.

[AmberVael]

I think option B seems to be the most likely. I think that's how such situations are usually handled.

Another question: If I give a create psi-like abilities, can it automatically augment all its psi-like powers to any power point cost no greater than its manifenster level, even though it doesn't actually have or pay power points?


That's true in 3.5. You can sort of tease it out from the wording in the SRD stuff, but I think CPsi made it explicit.

It's quite explicit in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.


All creatures with psi-like abilities are assigned a manifester level, which indicates how difficult it is to dispel their psi-like effects and determines all level-dependent variables (such as range or duration) the abilities might have. When a creature uses a psi-like ability, the power is manifested as if the creature had spent a number of power points equal to its manifester level, which may augment the power to improve its damage or save DC. However, the creature does not actually spend power points for its psi-like abilities, even if it has a power point reserve due to racial abilities, class levels, or some other psionic ability.
For example, a creature that manifests mind thrust as a 5th-level manifester effectively spends 5 power points on the power, and therefore deals 5d10 points of damage and adds 2 to the save DC of the power.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Regarding the PF Wilder:

Do the temporary hit points from the Hardened Body ability (the improved surge bond of Warrior's Surge) stack with each other? For example, if I manifest Defensive Precognition as a swift action, and then manifest Astral Construct in the same round, and I successfully Wild Surge both, do I gain the temporary hit points twice over (so 10 temporary hit points, if I normally would have gained 5)?

Do the temporary hit points from the Hardened Body stack with the hit points gained from the Vigor power? Example: I cast Vigor as a 5th-level manifester, surged to 7th, for 35 temporary hit points. With Hardened Body, this would grant 40 temporary hit points, if it stacks. If Hardened Body stacks with itself, when I manifest Expansion next round with a successful surge, my temporary hit points expands to 45, correct?

Finally: What happens to surging euphoria when you gain it multiple times? I'm assuming the bonus does not stack (it's a typed--morale--bonus from the same source), but does the duration refresh with each successful surge? If so, how does this affect Hardened Body? (Expecially if it stacks--does this refresh the duration for all instances of Hardened Body's hit point gain, or does the timer only reset for the newest iteration, or...?)

[Psyren]

Temp HP never stack in Pathfinder - you use only the highest value (and the duration associated with that value's effect.) So double-surging as a Warrior would only give you 5 temp HP (or whatever value your Surge Bonds had gotten you up to.) Vigor can of course get you to rather high amounts of temp HP.

Surging Euphoria's duration will indeed refresh whenever used.

[Norin]

The power desc is a bit vague on the "Object" part of Time Hop except the weight of said object. It states alot about how the "subject" affected by time hop works.

Is there some errata about only being able top time hop unworn/unattended objects?

Example: Can i time hop away someone's full plate armour and energy push them away so the armour reappears unworn at the hop's duration end? Or even the mighty orc barabarian's greataxe?

[Psyren]

I don't see why you couldn't; it would be no different than, say, zapping their armor away with the Teleport Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportObject.htm) spell. The only real safety attended items have is their owner's saving throw/SR.

[Yora]

Is it an error in the SRD, or is there indeed no charm power in Pathfinder?

[Anyr]

Is it an error in the SRD, or is there indeed no charm power in Pathfinder?

Neither; It's simply been renamed (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/e/empathic-connection).

[Psyren]

Is it an error in the SRD, or is there indeed no charm power in Pathfinder?

There is - DSP renamed the various "X, Psionic" spells to have unique, more 'psionics-y' sounding names. While it adds some neat flavor, it can sometimes make it difficult to find an old power whose wording may have changed. In this instance, the power you are looking for (Charm) is now called Empathic Connection. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/e/empathic-connection)

I actually did the legwork on this in my handbook - for each renamed power, it points to its updated version, and even calls out which "new" powers are renamed versions of old ones if you're searching in reverse. So for example, if you look in my Powers section under C, you would find "Charm, Psionic," and it would tell you the updated name; or if you looked under E for Empathic Connection, you'll see where I point out that this is in fact Psionic Charm.

Note that WotC actually did this in 3.5 a little bit - for instance, they point out that Psionic Grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/greasePsionic.htm) is actually known to some Psions as Ectoplasmic Sheen. DSP simply applied it to every power with similar nomenclature.

[Da'Shain]

As the thread seems pretty general purpose, and I'm interested but don't feel competent to judge the class without playing it first, I thought I'd ask here: what are people's impressions of Pathfinder's Cryptic class? It's making me think strongly of Spiral Jacobs from China Mieville's book Iron Council, which has me itching to try it out.

EDITED because I failed a spot check on a mention of Cryptic before in this thread ... but I'd still be interested to hear of anyone who's played one and how it stacks up.

[Psyren]

Haven't actually played it yet but it seems a solid T3 to me. It has more offensive power than a Psychic Rogue, which will lead you to focus on Int a bit more and thus offset the reduced skillpoints it gets. they get Int to damage thanks to Eldritch Blast Disrupt Pattern so they can much more easily dump Str, for instance, and Vigor helps them get by with low Con too; not only that, but they have a power that lets them full-attack with DP for massive amounts of damage on the cheap.) 4+Int is rather low for a skillmonkey but with all the bonuses they can get between their powers, insights and their psicrysta) they can generally end up on par with the 6+Int ones. Getting HiPs out of the box is very nice as well, and they get it much earlier than Rangers and even Assassins do. Their raw utility for any party is hard to top as well (how many rogues do you know that can cast Moment of Prescience or Hypercognition?)

As I pointed out in my Psyrogue guide, psionics and sneakiness go together quite well. Note though that all their powers have a visual display they can't suppress, so it's a good idea to hide before doing anything too overt like charming the guards.

[The Random NPC]

I'm starting a campaign with a friend who would like to play a Pyrokineticist. He is concerned about fire immune creatures, and would like to grab the metamagic feat Searing Spell. Is there a psionic version of that feat, and if not, do you have any advice on making a metapsionic version of Searing Spell?

[Psyren]

I'm starting a campaign with a friend who would like to play a Pyrokineticist. He is concerned about fire immune creatures, and would like to grab the metamagic feat Searing Spell. Is there a psionic version of that feat, and if not, do you have any advice on making a metapsionic version of Searing Spell?

Metapsionics wouldn't help anyway because none of the Pyro's abilities are powers.

I would instead refer him to a different element (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e) that enemies are unlikely to be able to resist (Sonic, Electricity and Acid are all good choices.)

[The Random NPC]

Huh, I'd forgotten that was a thing. Thanks!

[J-H]

What's the advantage of Metaconcert, anyway? +1 manifester level for being in a group, big whoop. More PP? You can still only manifest 1-2 times per round, and you're giving up multiple sets of actions to do so.

[Psyren]

What's the advantage of Metaconcert, anyway? +1 manifester level for being in a group, big whoop. More PP? You can still only manifest 1-2 times per round, and you're giving up multiple sets of actions to do so.

http://dvdmedia.ign.com/dvd/image/article/116/1160093/captain-planet-and-the-planeteers-season-one-20110406000829012_640w.jpg

That's why :smalltongue:

Okay, more serious answer.

If you think it's not a very great power, you'd be right, but not for the reasons you think. First, you are not actually giving up actions with Metaconcert, you are gaining them; the entity gets its own actions to manifest with, AND the members of the concert can still manifest powers on their own/full attack/fire a crossbow/read a book etc. Second, you have a potential +9 untyped to the save DCs of its powers - great for cracking the high saves of a troublesome boss. It also lets you divide up XP costs among the whole party, great if you're Wishing (RR'ing) for something that might benefit the whole party, such as reviving a dead friend or precision-plane-hopping the group. And last but not least, it shines quite well with the Erudite - it knows every single power they know, and can manifest them without reducing any of their UPD.

So all that is great - but unfortunately the power just isn't practical in combat, because it takes 10 rounds to get out. This is doable if you're about to kick down the door to the BBEG's sanctum, not so useful if you get ambushed. So it's primary purpose then becomes utility, and even then, only the xp division is really worthwhile from that standpoint.

It also isn't clear whether the entity can benefit from your feats (e.g. metapsionics), your items, your buffs, whether the entity itself can be buffed etc. It's just very poorly defined and you'll have to hash out a lot of this stuff with your DM.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

So all that is great - but unfortunately the power just isn't practical in combat, because it takes 10 rounds to get out. This is doable if you're about to kick down the door to the BBEG's sanctum, not so useful if you get ambushed. So it's primary purpose then becomes utility, and even then, only the xp division is really worthwhile from that standpoint.


Which makes it an excellent candidate for Linked Power, if you allow the interpretation which would call for Metaconcert to be manifested immediately during the next round (as always, your mileage may vary).

[Psyren]

Which makes it an excellent candidate for Linked Power, if you allow the interpretation which would call for Metaconcert to be manifested immediately during the next round (as always, your mileage may vary).

Is that one in your handbook? Seems like there's quite a few powers that could go with that trick now that I think about it.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Is that one in your handbook? Seems like there's quite a few powers that could go with that trick now that I think about it.

You know, I don't think it is. I've been meaning to get back to that, as it needs some tending. A project for tomorrow, I think.

Anything with a long manifesting time would be an obvious choice, frankly, but I bet there are a few that would be particularly nice, using that interpretation of Linked Power.

[Rubik]

Synchronicity is an excellent one, even at 1 pp. Or less, with Metapower.

[Norin]

Control Object indicates that i can attempt to animate a lock and make it unlock.

The wording is "You can use this power on a nonmagical lock, making it move in such a way as to attempt to unlock itself"

Attempting...

Further it says that if another character is attempting a open lock skill check they get +4 to the check if i animate the lock.

The part about "attempting" to unlock itself, is that in reference to the +4 bonus the other char gets, or does the power desc leave it up to DM's discretion to rule on if the lock opens or not - if i use only control object and no skillmonkey help?

[Psyren]

The part about "attempting" to unlock itself, is that in reference to the +4 bonus the other char gets, or does the power desc leave it up to DM's discretion to rule on if the lock opens or not - if i use only control object and no skillmonkey help?

Someone else has to be trying to open the lock; it will not unlock by itself. (You need Psionic Knock for that.)

[Norin]

Ah! But of course. Thanks for clearing that up.

I found the wording a bit odd in the Control Object desc. Maybe it was just my own clouded mind that made it look odd though.

[123456789blaaa]

Does Cognition Theifs Telepath power selection work the same way as the Ardents power selection?

[Psyren]

Does Cognition Theifs Telepath power selection work the same way as the Ardents power selection?

You mean that your ML determines what you can learn? Yes, it has a clause that is very similar to that of the Ardent. ("She can choose any power from the list that she would be able to manifest.")

[Zombimode]

A question concerning experiences with a certain power in play:

Has anyone, players or DMs, made experiences with the 2nd level Seer power Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sensitivitytoPsychicImpressions.htm) being used in play?

On paper, this looks like a really cool non-combat spell. In the right adventure it can be quite powerful and can provide vital information as well as color and depth to the setting.
Except, of course, someone has to provide all the extra information and since you can cast it pretty much anywhere this spell could get quite daunting for the DM.

Any experiences or tips regarding this power?

[Yora]

I want to use pathfinder psionics but don't want to bother with psionic talents. The SRD says that some powers have been changed into talents but does not have the original versions of the powers.
Is there any difference between 1st level powers and talents, except the option to use psionic focus instead of 1 power point?

[meemaas]

Nome at all. The powers that have been changed to talents were originally 1st level powers, with a cost of one. All you need do is remove the psionic focus clause and you are good to go. Do be warned that in that case, a large number of the talents were never first level powers, but that shouldn't hinder your usage of them.

A few first level powers had a talent augment that allowed you to expend focus to manifest them like talents, but I think we removed that augment while we were updating them. If you can't find it in the power itself, I know psyrens psionics guide lists which ones had it.

Edit: to be clear, psionic talents simply require maintaining focus to use

[Psyren]

A question concerning experiences with a certain power in play:

Has anyone, players or DMs, made experiences with the 2nd level Seer power Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sensitivitytoPsychicImpressions.htm) being used in play?

On paper, this looks like a really cool non-combat spell. In the right adventure it can be quite powerful and can provide vital information as well as color and depth to the setting.
Except, of course, someone has to provide all the extra information and since you can cast it pretty much anywhere this spell could get quite daunting for the DM.

Any experiences or tips regarding this power?

You can describe it just as the power does: "you see great battles, beautiful weddings, somber funeral processions etc., flash through your mind as you concentrate." If the manifester is in the wrong place (i.e. not plot-related) you can then just say "nothing you glimpse here appears to be relevant to your quest." That should suffice if your players want to scan every square inch of the city until they find the spot you wanted them to find.

Alternatively, if you're good at improvising, you can seed in a totally different plot hook if your PC is in the wrong place - even if you don't have anything fleshed out at the time. For example: "one image stands out in your mind, as clear to you as the campsite you woke in this morning - a furtive, ratlike man wearing filthy rags, carrying an amulet that appears to blaze like the noonday sun. You see him glance around, as though for pursuit, before scrabbling at the ground - having dug a shallow hole with his now bloody fingernails, you see him drop his glinting treasure into the dirt. It would be safe here, safe from them, but he didn't anticipate you." If the PC decides to dig it up, have the amulet be there, but look completely different from your vision - tarnished, broken and without value. Having planted the seed of a mystery, you can then worry about the details of the hook later. The PC will undoubtedly hang onto it anyway, and you can then spin a whole new adventure out of the item after that day's session; they might even forget they're carrying it, which can cause all kinds of amusement for you once you come up with strange occurrences/coincidences that can start happening around the Seer or her friends. (Or better yet, the PC might throw it away, thinking it has no value - you can use that to make a story too.)

Many DMs don't like Divinations because they attempt to "solve the plot" - psionic ones are unique in that they don't come from any specific entity, so you can literally show anything you want without worrying about a particular agenda. You don't have to consider whether the god of secrets would want to help his followers solve a mystery, or whether a good god would lead his cleric to an evil artifact without warning him about its true nature. You can simply reveal and conceal whichever details you feel like with no thought to agency or agenda.


I want to use pathfinder psionics but don't want to bother with psionic talents. The SRD says that some powers have been changed into talents but does not have the original versions of the powers.
Is there any difference between 1st level powers and talents, except the option to use psionic focus instead of 1 power point?

meemaas covered this one, but I do have one thing to add - if you manifest a power as a talent, typically this prevents you from augmenting it or using metapsionics with it. So if you, say, want to use the Identify function of Detect Psionics, you'll have to pay the base cost of the power along with the augment.

Talents are fun though, there's no reason not to allow them. After all, the other spellcasters in PF are running around with infinite cantrips and having a ball.

[Yora]

Talents are fun though, there's no reason not to allow them. After all, the other spellcasters in PF are running around with infinite cantrips and having a ball.
I don't want those either. :smallbiggrin:

While PF has some good ideas, there is way too much rules creep to an already overcrowded game.

[TopCheese]

I don't want those either. :smallbiggrin:

While PF has some good ideas, there is way too much rules creep to an already overcrowded game.

Plus there are some cantrips that should never ever be at-will.

Detect Magic
Create Water

These two are the biggest culprits.

Q: I just picked up complete psionics but have yet to read it. Is it official that any powers changed in this book overides expanded psionic handbook? Or is it that you can take either as long as the DM doesn't say anything?

[tyckspoon]

Q: I just picked up complete psionics but have yet to read it. Is it official that any powers changed in this book overides expanded psionic handbook?

Yes, as official printed material Complete Psionic updates any material that was re-printed in it and therefore overrides any previous version of those powers; the Comp. Psi versions are the ones you would be expected to use in an 'official' game just like any other book errata. For a personal game, ask your DM which he wants to use- if you've been using the XPH versions of the powers so far and have not experienced any problems with those, he will probably agree that the C. Psi versions are unwarranted nerfs.

[Psyren]

Plus there are some cantrips that should never ever be at-will.

Detect Magic
Create Water

These two are the biggest culprits.

For the first, why? :smallconfused: You can permanency/incarnate it, or get it on an item; so it's already possible to get infinite-use DM/DP in 3.5. You could even just dip Warlock/DFA for it. It's hardly broken.

For the second, PF updated it so that any water you make disappears after one day, so no making a drinkable lake for your summer home. That should curb the worst exploits. (I would have made it an hour, personally, but it's still really nice that a wizard/cleric/druid can remove a lot of the danger from your desert trek.)



Q: I just picked up complete psionics but have yet to read it. Is it official that any powers changed in this book overides expanded psionic handbook? Or is it that you can take either as long as the DM doesn't say anything?

Officially? Yes, but if you guys don't use the book then it won't come up. Unlike actual errata, you have to pay for CPsi, so nobody can assume you have it after all.

[Da'Shain]

So I really cannot wait to play a Cryptic, to the point that I'm going to buy my DMs a copy of Psionics Expanded so that they'll allow it (they don't like using stuff on the SRD that they can't look up in a book themselves). Looking over one of their insights, though, I'm thinking it might be that one of those abilities needs to be rewritten.

Steal Pattern (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/cryptic/cryptic-insights) states that, by making a touch attack and succeeding on a ML check DC 11+Target's ML or HD, a cryptic can shut down one of a target's Sp, Ps, or Su abilities (or psionic tattoo) for one minute, and gain one use of the ability stolen. It lists no number of uses per day, like many other Insights do. The way I read that, a cryptic with multiple attacks per round can attempt this multiple times per round (since a touch attack does not have to be a standard action), every round, ad infinitum, until essentially all of a creature's abilities are shut down. Am I incorrect?

Reading into it even further, on this page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers) under special abilities, it states that "The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability". Now, the one limitation placed on this Insight by the text is that "Powerful abilities like a creature with a spell-like ability of wish cannot be stolen in this fashion", so I think shutting down a character's entire ability to manifest for 1 minute is probably right out as a similarly powerful ability, but could you use this to essentially make another manifester unable to manifest a specific power for one minute and gain knowledge of it yourself for one use? And since they're supposed to lose one "daily use of the ability", would they also lose the power points necessary to manifest it?

[Psyren]

The way I read that, a cryptic with multiple attacks per round can attempt this multiple times per round (since a touch attack does not have to be a standard action), every round, ad infinitum, until essentially all of a creature's abilities are shut down. Am I incorrect?

Your mistake here is that Steal Pattern is supernatural - all supernatural abilities take a standard action unless otherwise stated. So no, you won't get iterative "pokes" here. (The touch attack is part of the standard action to activate this ability.)



Reading into it even further, on this page (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers) under special abilities, it states that "The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability". Now, the one limitation placed on this Insight by the text is that "Powerful abilities like a creature with a spell-like ability of wish cannot be stolen in this fashion", so I think shutting down a character's entire ability to manifest for 1 minute is probably right out as a similarly powerful ability, but could you use this to essentially make another manifester unable to manifest a specific power for one minute and gain knowledge of it yourself for one use?

You could steal one power, yes. Whether you have to pay for it yourself is unclear (see below.)



And since they're supposed to lose one "daily use of the ability", would they also lose the power points necessary to manifest it?

It sort of makes sense that you would steal the PP to go with it, but by strict RAW powers have no daily limit. Yes, they're limited by PP, but that's not strictly the same thing as uses/day. So it's up to the DM if you get the ammo to go with the gun.

[Da'Shain]

Your mistake here is that Steal Pattern is supernatural - all supernatural abilities take a standard action unless otherwise stated. So no, you won't get iterative "pokes" here. (The touch attack is part of the standard action to activate this ability.)Ah, okay, thanks for pointing that out. So it's still very powerful, but at least it's not happening multiple times per round.

Side question on this and a readied action: if a DM ruled that a red dragon's immunity to fire is a Su ability (which I'd be willing to bet most DMs would; in my mind, at least, immunity to an element should only be Ex when you're dealing with an elemental or something similar), could you, with a readied action, Steal a Red Dragon's fire immunity as it breathes fire, simultaneously making yourself immune to the breath weapon and making the dragon take damage from it? Or would the cone of fire technically begin outside the dragon's mouth?


You could steal one power, yes. Whether you have to pay for it yourself is unclear (see below.)

It sort of makes sense that you would steal the PP to go with it, but by strict RAW powers have no daily limit. Yes, they're limited by PP, but that's not strictly the same thing as uses/day. So it's up to the DM if you get the ammo to go with the gun.I actually wasn't even considering whether the Cryptic gained those PP or not; I was only thinking about whether the target lost power points, so that you could just keep on Stealing a Psion's high level powers and cripple both their manifesting ability and their PP reserve.

[Psyren]

Side question on this and a readied action: if a DM ruled that a red dragon's immunity to fire is a Su ability (which I'd be willing to bet most DMs would; in my mind, at least, immunity to an element should only be Ex when you're dealing with an elemental or something similar),

Gonna stop you right here; True Dragon immunities are indeed Ex, at least in Pathfinder.

Readying an action to steal (ability) in response to (observable action) should be fine in general though.



I actually wasn't even considering whether the Cryptic gained those PP or not; I was only thinking about whether the target lost power points, so that you could just keep on Stealing a Psion's high level powers and cripple both their manifesting ability and their PP reserve.

Well, keep in mind you have to pass the ML check (and land the touch) to get anything. Even at perfectly even levels with a guaranteed hit, he still has the edge 55/45, and every round you're spending on that is a round you're not actually attacking.

Also, remember that psionics is not like magic - "level" is not what determines power. Even if you steal all of a high-level psion's top-level powers, he can still fry you with an Energy Ray, pop your brain like a melon with Mind Thrust, reduce you to a drooling husk with Ego Whip or beat you to a pulp with an Astral Construct. Your best bet is to use this ability like a Spellthief would, i.e. when you have backup.

[Da'Shain]

Gonna stop you right here; True Dragon immunities are indeed Ex, at least in Pathfinder.Well that's ridiculous, but alright, them's the rules (that will be houseruled in games I run).


Well, keep in mind you have to pass the ML check (and land the touch) to get anything. Even at perfectly even levels with a guaranteed hit, he still has the edge 55/45, and every round you're spending on that is a round you're not actually attacking.

Also, remember that psionics is not like magic - "level" is not what determines power. Even if you steal all of a high-level psion's top-level powers, he can still fry you with an Energy Ray, pop your brain like a melon with Mind Thrust, reduce you to a drooling husk with Ego Whip or beat you to a pulp with an Astral Construct. Your best bet is to use this ability like a Spellthief would, i.e. when you have backup.Why 55/45? If I'm 5th level and the Psion is 5th level, that means the DC to steal a power is 16; I succeed with an 11 or higher, which is 50/50.

And of course I didn't see this as a 1v1 trick; I see it as an awesome support/control trick, and possibly giving the Cryptic the ability to do damage to a different point reserve than HP. If I'm draining 5 of his PP every other round, that's still one less round he can nova in, assuming he survives that long.

[Psyren]

Well that's ridiculous, but alright, them's the rules (that will be houseruled in games I run).

Not really; it's a physical quality. Dragons are magical, yes, but I would find it sillier that a red dragon in an AMF could suddenly burn to death or a white dragon in an AMF would freeze in the snow.



Why 55/45? If I'm 5th level and the Psion is 5th level, that means the DC to steal a power is 16; I succeed with an 11 or higher, which is 50/50.

Indeed, my bad on the math. Still, a 50/50 shot to do anything at all at melee range while he is (no doubt) lashing out at you for all he's worth doesn't strike me as the best strategy.

Unless, as previously stated, you can do this while he is preoccupied with someone/something else.



And of course I didn't see this as a 1v1 trick; I see it as an awesome support/control trick, and possibly giving the Cryptic the ability to do damage to a different point reserve than HP. If I'm draining 5 of his PP every other round, that's still one less round he can nova in, assuming he survives that long.

Remember that you don't actually get the PP by RAW. Powers are technically unlimited use (even though they are limited by other means), so he wouldn't actually lose "a daily use." Powers don't have daily uses, strictly speaking; you can sort of measure them that way but they still don't fit that definition from a rules standpoint.

[Da'Shain]

Not really; it's a physical quality. Dragons are magical, yes, but I would find it sillier that a red dragon in an AMF could suddenly burn to death or a white dragon in an AMF would freeze in the snow.Agree to disagree, then. If a dragon's breath weapon is magical in nature, I see no reason why its immunity to the breath weapon's element isn't.


Remember that you don't actually get the PP by RAW. Powers are technically unlimited use (even though they are limited by other means), so he wouldn't actually lose "a daily use." Powers don't have daily uses, strictly speaking; you can sort of measure them that way but they still don't fit that definition from a rules standpoint.I'd argue that PP absolutely are daily use, since they have a "daily limit," are regained by resting and can only be regained in this way once per day, but you're right, that's not strict RAW.

[Last Laugh]

I have some questions about PF psionics if anyone wants to answer them.

What level does psychic warrior learn path powers at? In particular minor metamorphosis, and if you could tell me why that would be great.
(minor metamorphosis appears on 3 power lists, twice as a level 1, once as a level 2. I can't find anywhere in the psychic warrior text that says which one I choose.)

The Adaptive Warrior PrC looks interesting, but I am having difficulty figuring out what it actually does. The abilities of the class seem to be tied to changing requirements at each step.

Examine technique says you can examine any creature, and you may examine up to class level in creatures. Is this only one creature per action? Also every single ability based on this one must be used with in one minute of using examine fighting technique, which has no duration, should examine fighting technique have a duration?

The main class ability Examine Fighting Technique cuts out after you expend focus, while other abilities say "as long as you maintain focus" (which is a good deal stronger IMO) how broken is it to change "until you expend focus" to "as long as you maintained focus" throughout the class?
(this changes a few things, like accelerated combat which requires you expend focus to use it (and give up your main class ability))

Ultimately this class looks pretty cool, and could make a really awesome disarm focused spy, but, to me it has lots of inconsistent wording and lots of restrictions on abilities. Is counter-synergy a thing? Because the adaptive warrior deactivates his primary ability to use some of his secondary abilities.

[Stouts]

The main class ability Examine Fighting Technique cuts out after you expend focus, while other abilities say "as long as you maintain focus" (which is a good deal stronger IMO) how broken is it to change "until you expend focus" to "as long as you maintained focus" throughout the class?
(this changes a few things, like accelerated combat which requires you expend focus to use it (and give up your main class ability))


Having abilities that require you to maintain focus vs expend it is an intentional balancing mechanic. While maintaining focus you get small but reliable bonuses, and you're offered the chance to sacrifice those (temporarily) by expending your focus in order to do something you really want right now. Changing that so that you always have both the small and the big bonuses seems pretty broken to me.

[meemaas]

I have some questions about PF psionics if anyone wants to answer them.

What level does psychic warrior learn path powers at? In particular minor metamorphosis, and if you could tell me why that would be great.
(minor metamorphosis appears on 3 power lists, twice as a level 1, once as a level 2. I can't find anywhere in the psychic warrior text that says which one I choose.)



The Psychic Warrior gets his path powers as first level powers. Irregardless of what level they are on any list. You don't choose which level you get, you simply get the most beneficial.

[Psyren]

@Da'Shain:

Agree to disagree, then. If a dragon's breath weapon is magical in nature, I see no reason why its immunity to the breath weapon's element isn't.

I would say that innately magical creatures have physical qualities that don't rely on external magical forces to function. Just as an elemental doesn't disappear in an AMF or a golem shut down in one, so too would I expect a dragon's immunity to continue functioning in one. After all, they are subtyped to that element; that goes beyond mere environmental conditioning. A red dragon could live comfortably in a volcano.



I'd argue that PP absolutely are daily use, since they have a "daily limit," are regained by resting and can only be regained in this way once per day, but you're right, that's not strict RAW.

But you can regain them with e.g. Bestow Power or Psychic Vampire too, and powers themselves can be powered with cognizance crystals. Then you get into cost reducers like a Torc or class features like Wild Surge, and ultimately, it's just not as clear-cut as "manifester X has Y power points, therefore he has Z uses per day of 5th-level powers."



The Adaptive Warrior PrC looks interesting, but I am having difficulty
figuring out what it actually does. The abilities of the class seem to be tied to changing requirements at each step.

Basically, you study creatures and can counter their fighting style (gain bonuses against them) and later copy their feats, proficiencies and physical skill checks. This can be used on enemies to turn their tactics against them, or on allies to give the party additional chances to succeed at a given task.



Examine technique says you can examine any creature, and you may examine up to class level in creatures. Is this only one creature per action? Also every single ability based on this one must be used with in one minute of using examine fighting technique, which has no duration, should examine fighting technique have a duration?

It says "any creature in line of sight" - so yes, you can examine multiple creatures with one use of thise ability (limited by your class level.)



Ultimately this class looks pretty cool, and could make a really awesome disarm focused spy, but, to me it has lots of inconsistent wording and lots of restrictions on abilities. Is counter-synergy a thing? Because the adaptive warrior deactivates his primary ability to use some of his secondary abilities.

Nah, it's fine: don't forget that you can maintain a second focus in your psicrystal, allowing you to get both an "expend" and "maintain" benefit simultaneously.

[Kred]

Elan's trance ability.
Will she regain PP after 4 hour of trance?

[Rubik]

IrregardlessI don't know that word, and it's not in my dictionary. What does that mean?

[meemaas]

Yea yea, i like the word. Don't give me flak for using it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't know that word, and it's not in my dictionary. What does that mean?

It's a fairly common mispronunciation of "regardless."

I assumed this was a genuine question because of the lack of blue for sarcasm.

[Psyren]

Elan's trance ability.
Will she regain PP after 4 hour of trance?

By RAW, yes.

[NamelessNPC]

What's your opinion on the tactician (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/tactician)? It has medium bab and 9th level powers, but the class features seem so weak. And the high level powers too.
Does anyone have any experience playing one?

[Psyren]

Eh, I'm not a big fan simply because they're a gish in a can that gets 9ths. I didn't really see the need for a Psywar with Wish. A martial class with a collective is a great niche though.

I liked them better as Divine Mind 2.0 with the various auras like they were in Beta.

[silverwolfer]

How good is the Unibody creature for a player, and how good/bad is the spectral savant template?

[meemaas]

Eh, I'm not a big fan simply because they're a gish in a can that gets 9ths. I didn't really see the need for a Psywar with Wish. A martial class with a collective is a great niche though.

I liked them better as Divine Mind 2.0 with the various auras like they were in Beta.

Are you talking about the Exemplar? I thought that class was the one that was in progress before the Dread came.

Disclaimer: I may be mistaken, of course. But i think thats it.

[Psyren]

Are you talking about the Exemplar? I thought that class was the one that was in progress before the Dread came.

Yeah I think that was it. I remember it being pretty martial-focused so I thought it became the Tactician. Anyway, like I was saying - I appreciate the niche for an offensive/martial collective-user but I just feel like it steps on the Psywar's toes a little too much.


How good is the Unibody creature for a player, and how good/bad is the spectral savant template?

I would say the Unbodied is worth 4 LA. You lose 9ths, but you don't really need those anyway, and buying off a single LA gets them back to you. An Unbodied Telepath with Practiced Manifester is able to keep up with a level 8 party just fine.

Spectral Savants are terrible - imagine a Lich that cannot regain spell slots and must instead melee (or bargain) with other psionic creatures to be able to do anything. And you have no phylactery (at least, not without Astral Seed.) At least they built the "good lich" option in from the start, but even then falling is pretty easy.

[meemaas]

Yeah I think that was it. I remember it being pretty martial-focused so I thought it became the Tactician. Anyway, like I was saying - I appreciate the niche for an offensive/martial collective-user but I just feel like it steps on the Psywar's toes a little too much.

Yea, the Exemplar was the precursor to the Dread. They scrapped it, i believe, because it seemed a bit too dull. I never really look at the Tactician as a fully martial class, and when i play it i tend to use it in a support role only. That said, maybe we should lobby DSP to see the Exemplar in a future project. It looked like a fun support class, and i still have a copy of its information because i wanted to try it out in the right environment.

[Yora]

An idea I am pondering:

In a PF game in which all spellcasting is refluffed psionic powers, would the mechanics of psicrowns work to represent special powers granted by a demon or spirit in exchange for the characters services? It would work just like a magic items in all respects, except that it does not occupy any item space and could not be taken away. Since I am not very familiar with psicrowns, would there be any complications with this?

I brewed up these six pacts using the idea. Did I calculate everything right?
This ignores the normal minimum caster level requirements and aura strength and schools are different. There is no added cost for not occupying an item slot included in the calculations.

Pact of Fire, Lesser
Aura faint elemental magic; CL 4th
Slot —; Value 2,400 gp; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
This pact provides 10 spell points, It allows the use of the following spells:
• Ray of Fire (1st level)
• Cone of Flames (2nd level)
Recharge: Cost 4 sp, Gain 1 sp

Pact of Fire, Greater
Aura moderate elemental magic; CL 7th
Slot —; Value 16,800 gp; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
This pact provides 40 spell points, It allows the use of the following spells:
• Ray of Fire (1st level)
• Cone of Flames (2nd level)
• Fireball (3rd level)
Recharge: Cost 7 sp, Gain 4 sp

Pact of Fire, True
Aura strong elemental magic; CL 10th
Slot —; Value 48,000 gp; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
This pact provides 100 spell points, It allows the use of the following spells:
• Ray of Fire (1st level)
• Cone of Flames (2nd level)
• Fireball (3rd level)
Recharge: Cost 10 sp, Gain 10 sp

Pact of Life, Lesser
Aura moderate creation magic; CL 6th
Slot —; Value 3,600 gp; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
This pact provides 20 spell points, It allows the use of the following spells:
• Cure wounds (1st level)
• Restoration (2nd level)
Recharge: Cost 6 sp, Gain 2 sp

Pact of Life, Greater
Aura moderate creation magic; CL 8th
Slot —; Value 16,000 gp; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
This pact provides 40 spell points, It allows the use of the following spells:
• Cure wounds (1st level)
• Restoration (2nd level)
• Remove Affliction (2nd level)
Recharge: Cost 8 sp, Gain 4 sp

Pact of Life, True
Aura strong creation magic; CL 11th
Slot —; Value 22,000 gp; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
This pact provides 40 spell points, It allows the use of the following spells:
• Cure wounds (1st level)
• Restoration (2nd level)
• Remove Affliction (2nd level)
Recharge: Cost 11 sp, Gain 11 sp

[Psyren]

An idea I am pondering:

In a PF game in which all spellcasting is refluffed psionic powers, would the mechanics of psicrowns work to represent special powers granted by a demon or spirit in exchange for the characters services? It would work just like a magic items in all respects, except that it does not occupy any item space and could not be taken away. Since I am not very familiar with psicrowns, would there be any complications with this?

Psicrowns do take up a slot (headband/phylactery.) Were you perhaps thinking of psychoactive skins? Those are slotless and would fit more with demonic possession/augmentation. You could even tweak them so the skins themselves determine which one is active (rather than the PC.)

[Yora]

No, the skins just provide passive benefits. What I am aiming for is giving casters access to more powers and allowing noncasters to gain access to some powers.
Psicrowns have the nice side effect of scalling with the user and allowing to use spell points as appropriate to the situation, instead of being stuck with serveral x/day SLAs.

[Dusk Eclipse]

There are some skins that give powers, for exaple the psychoactive skin of the proteus grants ML 7 metamorphosis at will.

[Psyren]

As Dusk pointed out, there are active-use Skins - if you want a slotless item that's the way to go.

Psicrowns are basically staves, that take up the headband slot. Unless you tweak the rules a bit, non-manifesters can't use them, just like noncasters can't use staves. (Without UPD anyway.)

Headband items that are more universal are the Third Eyes.

[Kred]

Are there any psionic books or books with powers/feats (3.5) compilation?

[Yora]

Only the Complete Psionics, which mostly consists of new material, but also include a couple of things that were copied from other books, I think.

There is no universial compendium for all powers and psionic feats from all books.

[Kred]

Soulbound Weapon
Can i choose Spiked Chain weapon to call?

[Rubik]

Soulbound Weapon
Can i choose Spiked Chain weapon to call?There are no restrictions on what weapon or kind of weapon you can call with the soulbound weapon ACF, so long as it's made from standard materials, so yes.

[Matticussama]

This is more of a fluff/opinion question I suppose, but this is the best place for it. =D As background, I am the DM for my group's D&D 3.5 game.

I absolutely love Psionics and prefer its mechanics over that of the traditional casting classes. However, most of the players in my group never even look twice at the system; either it doesn't fit their concept of what D&D "should" be (one player in particular) or they just haven't bothered with it before (the rest).

What is the best way to introduce Psionics to my group and try to nudge them into giving it a try? My goal is to perk their interest in the Psionic system without seeming too heavy-handed about it. I've started by introducing more NPCs who use Psionics, the occasional psionic item that can be used by non-psions, and a recurring villain in my game is a (psionic) Aboleth.

Since there are many people in this thread who are quite knowledgeable about Psionics, I thought that perhaps someon might have run into this before with their group(s). I would certainly welcome any feedback or ideas.

[Yora]

If you want to show how cool psionics can be, you have to do exactly that. Throw some psychic warriors and wilders at them, who do some of the more impressive stuff, like using Mental Leap and Up the Walls, or doing fun stuff with body equilibrium and wild surging telekinetic thrust.

Crunchy question: With one level of psion and practiced manifester (taken as the 1st level bonus feat), you can give any character 3 powers known and a manifester level of 5th, which is quite cool.
But he still only has 4 power points. Any way to beef that up to a more practical 10 or so, other than taking Psionic Talent three times?

Also, psionic talent seems to really suck! If a psion 10 takes it 4 times, he still only increases his daily PP from about 100 to 114. That's like 3 or four low-intensity powers per day.

[Matticussama]

Thanks for the reply, Yora! I'll definitely look more into those abilities, and other ones that are more cinematically impressive. Any additional suggestions for powers that are nice and "showy" for the sake of narration are most welcome. =D

[meemaas]

If you want to show how cool psionics can be, you have to do exactly that. Throw some psychic warriors and wilders at them, who do some of the more impressive stuff, like using Mental Leap and Up the Walls, or doing fun stuff with body equilibrium and wild surging telekinetic thrust.

Crunchy question: With one level of psion and practiced manifester (taken as the 1st level bonus feat), you can give any character 3 powers known and a manifester level of 5th, which is quite cool.
But he still only has 4 power points. Any way to beef that up to a more practical 10 or so, other than taking Psionic Talent three times?

Also, psionic talent seems to really suck! If a psion 10 takes it 4 times, he still only increases his daily PP from about 100 to 114. That's like 3 or four low-intensity powers per day.

Well. You do get bonus PP based on your manifester level, so that helps. Otherwise, the only option I can think of involves the ring of psionics from pathfinder. Which treats your key ability as higher for the sake of bonus PP

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you want to show how cool psionics can be, you have to do exactly that. Throw some psychic warriors and wilders at them, who do some of the more impressive stuff, like using Mental Leap and Up the Walls, or doing fun stuff with body equilibrium and wild surging telekinetic thrust.

Crunchy question: With one level of psion and practiced manifester (taken as the 1st level bonus feat), you can give any character 3 powers known and a manifester level of 5th, which is quite cool.
But he still only has 4 power points. Any way to beef that up to a more practical 10 or so, other than taking Psionic Talent three times?

Also, psionic talent seems to really suck! If a psion 10 takes it 4 times, he still only increases his daily PP from about 100 to 114. That's like 3 or four low-intensity powers per day.

There is a wondrous location in CPsi (Earth node I think) that gives you 5 extra PP per day lasting for a year, it cost between 3 and 5 k GP IIRC.

[Yora]

I think this also might be a good situation to get a coignance crystal. Since manifester level is only 5th, you can get a bunch of 3pp and 5pp ones relatively cheap.

Do you get more bonus power points if your manifester exceeds 20th, or do you always keep calculating bonus pp like a 20th level manifester?

[Ernir]

Do you get more bonus power points if your manifester exceeds 20th, or do you always keep calculating bonus pp like a 20th level manifester?

You keep getting bonus PP according to the normal formula, even though the table stops at manifester level 20.

See here: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/index.htm#thePowerPointReserve)

How To Determine Bonus Power Points
Your key ability score grants you additional power points equal to your key ability modifier × your manifester level ×½. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Power Points shows these calculations for class levels 1st through 20th and key ability scores from 10 to 41.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

I was looking for a second prestige class for my Shaper/Constructor and bumped into the Phenotype impressionist (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/phenotype-impressionist). Fusing constructs (at level 5) is good. Very good. Too good, actually. But that's okay, just don't tell my DM :smallwink:.

I am a bit boggled by the molding and reshaping of constructs.
-The construct gains enhancement bonuses to Str and Dex, that's nifty.
-The construct gains new movement modes, but loses his old ones.
-The construct loses his natural attacks and gains those of the new form, but also gets a -4 penalty on attacks with them due to not being proficient. Aside from Hydra-related sillyness, this is a bad thing. 3 slam attacks and a tail slap works fine for me.
-The construct also loses his ex and su abilities, as well as his (racial) feats and low-light vision and darkvision.

This strikes me as a weird deal. Do the menu choices come before or after the transformation? The way I have been reading it, they come before and are all lost (as well as DR and senses) in exchange for some ability increases and perhaps a size modification. That's not very impressive. On the other hand, if they come *after*, this ability becomes very very good (and one can make a case for them coming after the transformation, as the menu abilities the Shaper chooses at some point are not generic for all Astral constructs and therefore arguably not 'racial').

Does anyone have any experience with this class, or perhaps can enlighten me on how I should read this ability?

[Shaynythyryas]

Do you get more bonus power points if your manifester exceeds 20th, or do you always keep calculating bonus pp like a 20th level manifester?

From SRD : NO EPIC BONUS POWER PROGRESSION
Epic psionic characters do not gain additional bonus power points above 20th. They may still gain more power points as their key ability score increases.

[Dusk Eclipse]

From SRD : NO EPIC BONUS POWER PROGRESSION
Epic psionic characters do not gain additional bonus power points above 20th. They may still gain more power points as their key ability score increases.

I think it means that at your class based PP cap at 343 at Psion 20. If you took Psion 21 you wouldn't get extra PP from your Psion level; but you would following the formula posted above.

[Yora]

Interestingly, in 3.5e you get bonus power points from your ability scores for Class Level, in PF it's by manifester level.
So in 3.5e, Practiced Manifester does not get you more bonus power points, but in Pathfinder it does.

Edit: Actually it's a case of table contradicting the description. Table says class level, formula manifester level.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

From SRD : NO EPIC BONUS POWER PROGRESSION
Epic psionic characters do not gain additional bonus power points above 20th. They may still gain more power points as their key ability score increases.


I think it means that at your class based PP cap at 343 at Psion 20. If you took Psion 21 you wouldn't get extra PP from your Psion level; but you would following the formula posted above.

The XPH states pretty clearly that the formula runs up to level 20 and that it stops for epic level characters and that the only way to get more PP is to increase your main manifesting stat.

[Rubik]

From SRD : NO EPIC BONUS POWER PROGRESSION
Epic psionic characters do not gain additional bonus power points above 20th. They may still gain more power points as their key ability score increases.The answer is clearly to multiclass. If you start out as a psion you still gain pp for going wilder, even if you're above level 20. Then you enter a PrC that grants you advantages you can use on your psion powers, along with as many ML boosters as you can find. Such as metamind. Metamind + Practiced Manifester is pretty amazing in epic, once you hit the capstone.

Otherwise, illithid savant gets you the metamind capstone in 3 levels.

[Yora]

Combining Metamind with Practiced Manifester is a bit cheesy, though.

100% RAW, but I'm quite sure that wasn't what the creator of the feat had in mind.:smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Epic psionic characters do not gain additional bonus PP for having a higher ML than 20. The bonus table (and the formula) effectively stop at 20. (However, the contribution to the formula from your key ability modifier is uncapped.)

The idea is that you would instead use multiple selections of Improved Manifestation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedManifestation) to increase your PP instead, by 19 each. This is more effective than attempting to get the same increase via raising your KAM via the "Great X" feats (like Great Intelligence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greatIntelligence)) because every two of those will only give you 10 extra PP, as opposed to the 38 from IM. (They do have other benefits though, such as passively raising your DCs, affecting skill checks etc.)

[Renen]

Can someone tel me how dorjes are made?

Bonus question: Break down the recharge trick for me. Just so I understand exactly how it works, in-case the GM asks.

[Psyren]

Can someone tel me how dorjes are made?

Just like you'd make a wand, except you typically use a slender crystal shard (or a crystal chunk) instead of a shaft of wood.

The specific details are here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/creatingPsionicItems.htm#creatingDorjes)



Bonus question: Break down the recharge trick for me. Just so I understand exactly how it works, in-case the GM asks.

...Which one?

[Vaz]

Ardent with Substitute Mantles

How does this work work with regards to power limitation? As an ardent you can only take secondary mantles with less or equal powers than your primary, so if you take the ACF and max out available powers (up to 10), then can you take any ardent?

Practised Manifester and Ardent - how does it work?

[Renen]

...Which one?

Pretty much any. Perhaps the least cheesiest, or the least expensive?

[Psyren]

Ardent with Substitute Mantles

How does this work work with regards to power limitation? As an ardent you can only take secondary mantles with less or equal powers than your primary, so if you take the ACF and max out available powers (up to 10), then can you take any ardent?

Not sure what you're asking here. Your max powers from mantles are 21 anyway, so 10 powers in each of your primary mantles already almost covers that. The idea, if sub mantles is allowed, is simply to choose your primary mantle themes such that those two cover almost everything you need. (For instance, you could choose Time and Freedom - thematically covering just about every defensive, action economy and movement power you could want - then use EK to pick up one-offs like a blasty power or Astral Construct.)



Practised Manifester and Ardent - how does it work?

For the most part, like it does for everyone else. the only difference is that Ardents don't have a maximum power level that is fixed to class level (like other manifesters do.) Rather, their maximum power level - beyond 1st - is dependent on their manifester level instead. So you can multiclass with an Ardent with much greater freedom than with other manifesting/casting classes, because you aren't delaying their progression by doing so; raising your ML allows you to jump back to where you should be by character level.

[Psyren]

Pretty much any. Perhaps the least cheesiest, or the least expensive?

Well, they're all pretty cheesy. You're best off not springing any of these on your DM mid-session and merely chatting about it first.

Anyway, there's the Earth Power one, the Wilder one, at least two for Incarnum, the Affinity Field one, the Cerebremancer/StP Erudite one, the Psychic Theurge one, the Metamind one... Which one caught your eye?

[Renen]

Hopefully ill be playing an erudite a human or Kalashtar. Which method is least costly (feat wise and such)

[Psyren]

Hrm... "Cheapest" is still difficult to quantify - some cost multiple feats, but require no items. Some require a mix. Some cost neither feats nor items, but cannot be done until mid-high levels.

Wilder is probably the cheapest as it can be done at level 7 with minimal investment. Wild Surge 3 gets you 4 PP at a cost of 3PP, plus losses due to potential enervation (0.15 * 7 = 1.05.) This effectively costs more than you get back using binomial theory, but a simple Torc of Power Preservation from the XPH/SRD or Enervation Endurance Feat (or both) puts you back in the black.

The Earth Power method is next as it applies to any psionicist. This costs two feats and a Torc (three if you want to speed it up.) The feat lets you expend focus to reduce the cost of a power by 1 - combine with a Torc and you are gaining 2 PP for every 1 you spend on Bestow Power targeting yourself. Your feet must be touching the earth to use this, but a common trick here is to put dirt in your shoes. If your DM has issues with this though, you can use your feet slot for something else, like Incarnum.

Speaking of Incarnum, there are two tricks here: Psycarnum Infusion + Azure Talent, or Psycarnum Infusion + Midnight Augmentation. These involve using PI to treat the companion feat as though filled to capacity. The former isn't clear if you can do this more than once, but the latter is beyond reproach. These do, however, require Incarnum to be allowed in your games.

The others require higher levels and multiclassing to pull off. I think there may be a trick with Metapower though.

[Renen]

Ways to use time hop.
I see people completely in love with that power. Can someone outline the uses of the spell?

[AmberVael]

Ways to use time hop.
I see people completely in love with that power. Can someone outline the uses of the spell?

1) Make yourself completely disappear for a while. Need to be gone? Be gone!
2) Move stuff out of the way. Got a trapped/locked door? Poof. It's gone. And it appears back in place with all of its parts intact and untouched, which is all the more amusing to play around with.
3) Get rid of an enemy. It isn't exactly the best, but it can be a sort of low power save or lose effect. Getting kicked out of combat for several turns is not great- and with augmentation, you can hit several people. Not bad for a 3rd level power.
4) Delay something bad on an ally or object. Is someone diseased/poisoned/bleeding out or what not, but you're all busy battling off Fire Breathing Chihauhau's? Time Hop them to safety while you sort out a solution!

It's just a multi-use power that is still pretty decent at in combat usage. With cleverness, you can use it for all sorts of things.

[Psyren]

A couple that weren't mentioned:

5) Save an ally: Bob the Fighter took a nasty hit and he's bleeding out. That mean ogre looks all set to CdG, or maybe Bob's just at -9 and the cleric is entangled on the far side of the room. Just Hop Bob out of there until you can end the combat, and gather 'round to heal him afterward.
5b) Time Hop stops the clock, so you can also use it to save a dead ally with the time-sensitive Psionic Revivify, suffering none of the usual penalties to being raised.
6) Mass Hide: The party's about to be discovered by that patrol! There's no place to hide and the cleric sucks at stealth anyway! No time to climb everyone into a rope trick either! Well, how about we all just come back to the timestream later when they've walked by. Nothing at all can detect you because you're literally not there.
6b) Escape: Yell "TELEPORT!" right before time hopping and the BBEG might think you're gone. He might even blow a Trace Teleport (or True Seeing) trying to find you, before angrily going out to command the search party. Then you reappear right where you left and rifle through his underwear drawer for the macguffin. May want to suppress your displays with this one.

A use that definitely needs special mention is on objects. Not just obstacles like doors - you can target anything under the weight limit. That charging berserker? Hop his weapons and armor away so the monk can school him properly. That sneak attacking archer with untouchable AC giving you fits? Hop his bow. The ritual scroll the evil cleric is reading from? His will save will likely be high, but it's doable. That important gem the master thief is about to get away with? Yoink.



3) Get rid of an enemy. It isn't exactly the best, but it can be a sort of low power save or lose effect. Getting kicked out of combat for several turns is not great- and with augmentation, you can hit several people. Not bad for a 3rd level power.

Most importantly, it's a will-save-or-lose - and one of the few in the game that isn't mind-affecting. So you can 'hop away all the enemy BSFs and GCs, leaving their squishy casters all alone and ready to be flanked/grappled. Hop away the necromancer's shambling minions. Hop away the evil druid's animal companion, or those monstrous plants he summoned up. Hop away a rival psion's astral construct before it can grapple you. And so on.

[Rubik]

1) Make yourself completely disappear for a while. Need to be gone? Be gone!
2) Move stuff out of the way. Got a trapped/locked door? Poof. It's gone. And it appears back in place with all of its parts intact and untouched, which is all the more amusing to play around with.
3) Get rid of an enemy. It isn't exactly the best, but it can be a sort of low power save or lose effect. Getting kicked out of combat for several turns is not great- and with augmentation, you can hit several people. Not bad for a 3rd level power.
4) Delay something bad on an ally or object. Is someone diseased/poisoned/bleeding out or what not, but you're all busy battling off Fire Breathing Chihauhau's? Time Hop them to safety while you sort out a solution!

It's just a multi-use power that is still pretty decent at in combat usage. With cleverness, you can use it for all sorts of things.All of this, plus it's good for knocking out things like mounts, which tend to have worse saves (and arguably much worse Wisdom scores) than their riders. A fighter designed as a mounted charger loses a good chunk of his viability once his mount is gone. That, and you can use it to sunder and dismantle things without actually damaging them -- Time Hop a chain link out of that chandelier to make the whole thing crash down on your foes; Time Hop the bolts in the hinges to the adamantine door so you can take the door with you with minimal fuss; Time Hop the spears in the spear trap away so YOU can bypass it, while the war party following you has to deal with it once the duration runs out.

Plus, you can't Dispel something that doesn't exist in the time stream, so that's a whole new layer of potential interesting.

[Psyren]

I'm not so sure about time hopping the chains out of chandeliers. That's getting into "what counts as an object/creature territory" and next thing you know you're time-hopping various atoms/molecules out of someone's body, or teleporting people in half. That way lies a degree of madness the rules aren't necessarily equipped to handle.

[Rubik]

I'm not so sure about time hopping the chains out of chandeliers. That's getting into "what counts as an object/creature territory" and next thing you know you're time-hopping various atoms/molecules out of someone's body, or teleporting people in half. That way lies a degree of madness the rules aren't necessarily equipped to handle.I imagine that if it's sunderable, you can Time Hop it. Can you sunder a chain link? If so, you can target it, and thus, Time Hop.

[Psyren]

I imagine that if it's sunderable, you can Time Hop it. Can you sunder a chain link? If so, you can target it, and thus, Time Hop.

Fair enough, but I never saw mention about sundering the bolts in a hinge before anywhere either...

[Rubik]

Fair enough, but I never saw mention about sundering the bolts in a hinge before anywhere either...I sundered a bolt the other day. It was rather rusted, but it broke right in half when I hit it with a hammer.

[Psyren]

I sundered a bolt the other day. It was rather rusted, but it broke right in half when I hit it with a hammer.

And you could freely* chop someone's limbs off IRL too, but I was talking about in the game rules :smalltongue:


*consequences notwithstanding

[Rubik]

And you could freely* chop someone's limbs off IRL too, but I was talking about in the game rules :smalltongue:


*consequences notwithstandingIf all else fails, just sunder/Time Hop the hinges themselves. Either/or.

Of course, you could always save the limbs for later, if you're hungry.

[Psyren]

Hinges I'm okay with, because there are other examples of them being specifically targetable by spells (e.g. Phantom Trap.) My point was merely that we have to draw the line somewhere (or else go all the way down to atoms being targetable) so the text of existing spells/powers is as good a place as any.

In other worsd, I merely haven't seen bolts, screws and other components being called out as legal targets in the context of being part of a larger construction anywhere. But there could be existing spells I'm unaware of that do make this fine a distinction.

[Shaynythyryas]

Combining Metamind with Practiced Manifester is a bit cheesy, though.
100% RAW, but I'm quite sure that wasn't what the creator of the feat had in mind.:smallbiggrin:

Practiced Manifester is as beasty as Chaos Music or the Vest of Legends for a bard, and I think it was well intended tu put half-ML classes to a semi-top ML. The only limit is the hit dice and not any sum of psionic class level : as far as i'm concerned, it's freaking powerful but i'd allow it.

---

Is there a way to protect yourself from a Psionic Dispel ?

[Psyren]

Is there a way to protect yourself from a Psionic Dispel ?

The same way you'd protect yourself from a magical one - having a high caster level. In addition, various anti-dispel magic items - such as a Ring of Enduring Arcana - will also work vs. psionic dispels. (And note that a psion can craft this ring too, using the rules in MiC.)

Also, there's this. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispellingBuffer.htm)

[Shaynythyryas]

The same way you'd protect yourself from a magical one - having a high caster level. In addition, various anti-dispel magic items - such as a Ring of Enduring Arcana - will also work vs. psionic dispels. (And note that a psion can craft this ring too, using the rules in MiC.)

Also, there's this. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dispellingBuffer.htm)

My DM uses the "Psionics are differents" rule, so everything that works vs magic : ruled out. But the Dispelling Buffer sounds awesome !

---

If any power manifested on yourself can affect your psycristal, it means you can automorph it too, right ?
So if your psycristal get damaged, can you automorph into a living form that can heal itself (like a troll or anything with a healing ability), so that your psycristal would get his hps back ?

(context : yes, a regular psion has access to psionic repair, but as a wilder, the power choice is crucial and if any can be replaced, than it should)

[Psyren]

My DM uses the "Psionics are differents" rule, so everything that works vs magic : ruled out. But the Dispelling Buffer sounds awesome !

Anything that raises your manifester level will help too. For instance, if a Wilder uses wild surge or a psion uses overchannel before manifesting some buffs, they will all be harder to dispel because they will have a higher ML than normal.



If any power manifested on yourself can affect your psycristal, it means you can automorph it too, right ?
So if your psycristal get damaged, can you automorph into a living form that can heal itself (like a troll or anything with a healing ability), so that your psycristal would get his hps back?

(context : yes, a regular psion has access to psionic repair, but as a wilder, the power choice is crucial and if any can be replaced, than it should)

Yes, you can share Metamorphosis (if you know it) with your psicrystal, and since Regeneration and Fast Healing are Ex abilities it will gain them from the form you turn it into.

[Kred]

What is the point of using Cobalt Power (from icarnum)? To get +3 point of damage?

[Yora]

That beats Weapon Specialization.

[JusticeZero]

What's the comparative power, playability, and broken(in either/both directions)-ness of the different SRD psi systems out there, for a basic psion character? So far i'm looking at using 3.5 SRD core to start with, as it's easily available, and the PF SRD site is a pseudo-unreadable mess of bad formatting and covering ads.

[Psyren]

What is the point of using Cobalt Power (from icarnum)? To get +3 point of damage?

Not really psionics-related, but this feat appears to help mitigate the attack penalty due to power attack. It gives an insight bonus to attack (otherwise difficult for martial classes to get) as well as providing an additional bonus to damage.


What's the comparative power, playability, and broken(in either/both directions)-ness of the different SRD psi systems out there, for a basic psion character? So far i'm looking at using 3.5 SRD core to start with, as it's easily available, and the PF SRD site is a pseudo-unreadable mess of bad formatting and covering ads.

A psion is comparable in power to a sorcerer in both 3.5 and PF. Psionics in general is a bit more balanced because of manual scaling and inability to stack metamagic. However, psionics does have more ways to recover/transfer "spell slots" than magic does. PF has done away with almost all of these tricks, but has a higher base power level than 3.5 all the same.

[meemaas]

What's the comparative power, playability, and broken(in either/both directions)-ness of the different SRD psi systems out there, for a basic psion character? So far i'm looking at using 3.5 SRD core to start with, as it's easily available, and the PF SRD site is a pseudo-unreadable mess of bad formatting and covering ads.

Not to be intrusive. But what do you think is wrong with the formatting for the PFSRD?

While I can't do anything about the ads, I'd like to hear your complaints about the formatting so we can improve upon it. Especially within the psionics section.

[Yora]

Because of all the boxes on most pages, the length of lines often varries a lot over a single page. Which is not really that good looking. It appeara rather cluttered, especially when you have lots of very long boxes with the actual text being squeezed to lines of 5 or 6 words.
Like this page, for example (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats).

Still does the job, but it does look more confusing that it needs to be.

[meemaas]

Because of all the boxes on most pages, the length of lines often varries a lot over a single page. Which is not really that good looking. It appeara rather cluttered, especially when you have lots of very long boxes with the actual text being squeezed to lines of 5 or 6 words.

If you point out a few pages ill see what I can do.

A lot of it though may not actually be that easy to fix, because Google website design can be very annoying to work with.

Edit: that feats page is a work in progress. We aren't able to dedicate all our tike to it, but we are looking at cleaning up the psionics section. I personally hope to replace that listing with a table like in the general feats section and so on.

[JusticeZero]

Not to be intrusive. But what do you think is wrong with the formatting for the PFSRD?
While I can't do anything about the ads, I'd like to hear your complaints about the formatting so we can improve upon it. Especially within the psionics section.
The material is organized in narrow columns which do not behave well on narrow screens. I don't mind the presence of ads, but the implementation here is horrible. Tall banner ads appear covering up sections I want to read or click on. This tall ad cannot be moved out of the way; the expected 'close' button turns it into a Google apology that fills and blocks the same area. Attempts to scroll sideways leaves this ad still blocking the column. Attempts to resize the scale to hopefully make the column move caused the columns to break and overlap each other.

The material appears to be organized with a tree logic under a logic that does not fit any usage patttern that I use. Left side column was organized under a cryptic logic and hugely long.

Now to go to a specific page, in this case http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes Link inside of the psionics page I opened to a sale on a book was cut off by text on the bottom edge. (There is a button there, I think, but I cannot see what it says.) Window on top "Subpage listing" partly overlaps left column. Then there is a generall fluff description of psionics as a whole, followed by a list which duplicates part of the subpage listing, and which is brief, making the seperate floaty box of the subpage menu seem a bit odd.

The tree organization was both tall and very overwhelming. No need for a seperation of 'who we think is clicking on the link'. Fluff about psi in general is best left in the summaries and basic rules for psi in general; when I get to the page on a certain class, I want the relevant info for that class to be there.

Third party material is linked to in numerous places with the non-descriptive "3rd Party ___" at the bottom of many lists. Psionics materials are not linked in this fashion but are relegated to a seperate list waaaaaay down in the deep whitespace.

On my desktop with a huge monitor that I have not been able to get at today, the arrangement would just look a bit byzantine and quirky. On my netbook, my portrait monitor that I use to read PDFs, or god forbid my smart phone, much of the site is completely unusable.

[meemaas]

It looks like a lot of your complaints are with how the website shows up on a narrower screen, such as that on a smartphone, right? Unfortunately, there isn't much we can do about it until we get the time to completely reorganize the section.

I've checked on multiple devices just now, to see if i can see the same things you see, but i don't seem to be having that problem with ads overlapping the page and so on.

The subpage listings are currently up there, as opposed to other references, because there's only two of us working on that specific section, and we haven't had the time to really put it back up to standards, its part of my to-do list to get the pages usable without them.

As for the separate section, psionics was given its own full section because the psionics are designed as a full on system that does not exist in pathfinder otherwise. Most, although not all, third party publishers expand only on the rules that Paizo has published, while the psionics rules are completely theirs and OGL. Mixing the section into the site like the rest of the third party material would have been counterproductive to making the system playable. It is at the bottom because the paizo rules have to come first, and there's nothing we can really do about that.

I apologize that you find the website a pain to deal with, although, it becomes more readable on a mobile device if you scroll all the way to the bottom and select "view as desktop"

It may be that a lot of your complaints come from the mobile version of the website, and if that turns out to be the case, i'll be sure to voice a concern about it to see what we can do about it.

[Rubik]

Is there a way to protect yourself from a Psionic Dispel ?In Savage Species there's a feat called Supernatural Transformation. If you take the Magic Mantle via the Don Mantle feat (with Tap Mantle as the prereq), take a level in ardent/mantled wilder/mantled psywar/mantled erudite, or eat the brain of one of those via illithid savant, and then take Supernatural Transformation (Psionics), you gain all the advantages of having your manifesting be supernatural, including being undispellable, not provoking AoOs, and having a ML equal to your HD.

[JusticeZero]

It looks like a lot of your complaints are with how the website shows up on a narrower screen, such as that on a smartphone, right? I've checked on multiple devices just now, to see if i can see the same things you see, but i don't seem to be having that problem with ads overlapping the page and so on.Open Firefox. Shrink the width of the window down to something narrow such as you might expect to be limited to on a monitor with seriously limited resolution like a portrait monitor.

Open the main page. The vertical banner will drop onto those columns somewhere inconvenient, and stay there. If sufficiently narrow, that floaty window I mentioned will overlap the leftmost topic bar as well. I just tested this on my Win 7 computer with FF19.0, after fighting with it on two computers running Linux (Bodhi, latest) running latest Firefox. The smartphone is using xScope for a browser and had similar (even more hideous because of the tiny monitor) problems.

[Rubik]

I'm fairly sure discussion of Pathfinder's horribly put-together website would be better served elsewhere.

[meemaas]

Open Firefox. Shrink the width of the window down to something narrow such as you might expect to be limited to on a monitor with seriously limited resolution like a portrait monitor.

Open the main page. The vertical banner will drop onto those columns somewhere inconvenient, and stay there. If sufficiently narrow, that floaty window I mentioned will overlap the leftmost topic bar as well. I just tested this on my Win 7 computer with FF19.0, after fighting with it on two computers running Linux (Bodhi, latest) running latest Firefox. The smartphone is using xScope for a browser and had similar (even more hideous because of the tiny monitor) problems.

I see what you mean now. I'll bring that up when i get a chance, but a possible quick fix for it could be to zoom out of the browser window. I'm on Windows 8, so i'm not sure this suggestion is a feature of it, since i didn't learn about it until after upgrading. But you can use Control and =, or Control and - to zoom in and out of your browser window, and that adjusts the bar just as much as the screen does.


I'm fairly sure discussion of Pathfinder's horribly put-together website would be better served elsewhere.

I'll admit it should be. But it started from a topic on the psionics section of said website, so it is "technically" on subject. I'll admit it has been sidetracked from that section, but i'm just looking at the feedback to try and help the site.

[Rubik]

I'll admit it should be. But it started from a topic on the psionics section of said website, so it is "technically" on subject. I'll admit it has been sidetracked from that section, but i'm just looking at the feedback to try and help the site.Consider starting a new thread?

[Shaynythyryas]

Moving back to the question thread...

When you Share Pain with your Psicrystal, does he reduce the half of damage he takes with his natural hardness ?

[Rubik]

Moving back to the question thread...

When you Share Pain with your Psicrystal, does he reduce the half of damage he takes with his natural hardness ?All forms of hp damage are reduced by hardness, according to the description for hardness: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#hardness)


Hardness

Each object has hardness—a number that represents how well it resists damage. Whenever an object takes damage, subtract its hardness from the damage. Only damage in excess of its hardness is deducted from the object’s hit points (see Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points; Table: Substance Hardness and Hit Points; and Table: Object Hardness and Hit Points).There are no general exceptions to this rule. The exceptions are specifically pointed out in the abilities that overcome it, such as the psionic [sonic] powers and the Mountain Hammer maneuver.

[Nettlekid]

I apologize if this has been asked before, but a quick scan makes me think it hasn't.

You know the Psionic Save Game trick, right? Where you manifest Forced Dream on your Psicrystal, Mass Time Hop it hours into the future with a Status on it, and when it gets back it checks to see if you're dead and if so, it activates the Forced Dream and brings time back to just before it jumped? It's a great trick, but one thing has often bothered me. The Psicrystal is the one who's reverting time, and it has less than 6 seconds as it comes out of the Time Hop to make up its mind about whether it will do so. It's not going to have an intelligent view of the situation, all it can do is RESTART: YES or NO. So when it chooses YES and you get time warped back to where you were...how do you know that you did? To you, you just seem like you're about to manifest Mass Time Hop on your Psicrystal. Even if it stops you and tells you that it just reset time because you died, it won't know why you died and neither will you, so you'll just make all the same mistakes again, probably. Is there any way so that you know what happened in the lost timeline?

[Psyren]

I apologize if this has been asked before, but a quick scan makes me think it hasn't.

You know the Psionic Save Game trick, right? Where you manifest Forced Dream on your Psicrystal, Mass Time Hop it hours into the future with a Status on it, and when it gets back it checks to see if you're dead and if so, it activates the Forced Dream and brings time back to just before it jumped? It's a great trick, but one thing has often bothered me. The Psicrystal is the one who's reverting time, and it has less than 6 seconds as it comes out of the Time Hop to make up its mind about whether it will do so. It's not going to have an intelligent view of the situation, all it can do is RESTART: YES or NO. So when it chooses YES and you get time warped back to where you were...how do you know that you did? To you, you just seem like you're about to manifest Mass Time Hop on your Psicrystal. Even if it stops you and tells you that it just reset time because you died, it won't know why you died and neither will you, so you'll just make all the same mistakes again, probably. Is there any way so that you know what happened in the lost timeline?

There is one change - you'll have lost the power points necessary to manifest forced dream the first time. So when you reload, and notice your PP are gone, you'll know whatever you were going to try didn't work. And that's if your DM rules you don't retain anything.

[Propagandalf]

I've got a PF psionic feat question:

Are the Body Fuel and Mind Over Body feats an effective way to recover Powerpoints in a pinch at low levels?

How fast do they lose their steam as you level up? (For example does a wand of Lesser Restoration provide a way to regain your pp the easy way at mid levels? A costly way, sure, but usable if you really need it?)

[Rubik]

I've got a PF psionic feat question:

Are the Body Fuel and Mind Over Body feats an effective way to recover Powerpoints in a pinch at low levels?

How fast do they lose their steam as you level up? (For example does a wand of Lesser Restoration provide a way to regain your pp the easy way at mid levels? A costly way, sure, but usable if you really need it?)Using two feats and losing a point of Con are not worth gaining 2 power points.

[Xervous]

If you have psicrystal containment and (your psicrystal gets feats and) the psicrystal has wild talent, is the psionic focus it produces with its own actions usable by the Psionic character whose psicrystal it is?

[Yora]

How fast do they lose their steam as you level up? (For example does a wand of Lesser Restoration provide a way to regain your pp the easy way at mid levels? A costly way, sure, but usable if you really need it?)
No. Body Fuel causes ability burn. Mind over Body is the only thing I know that can increase the rate at which you recover from ability burn other than natural healing. Lesser restoration does not heal the damage from ability burn.

[Psyren]

I've got a PF psionic feat question:

Are the Body Fuel and Mind Over Body feats an effective way to recover Powerpoints in a pinch at low levels?

How fast do they lose their steam as you level up? (For example does a wand of Lesser Restoration provide a way to regain your pp the easy way at mid levels? A costly way, sure, but usable if you really need it?)

As Rubik said, Body Fuel is generally not worth it. Note that it actually burns all three physical stats at once to give you 2 PP.

The wand won't work to speed things up, as ability burn cannot be magically healed.


If you have psicrystal containment and (your psicrystal gets feats and) the psicrystal has wild talent, is the psionic focus it produces with its own actions usable by the Psionic character whose psicrystal it is?

The problem here is that Psicrystal Containment prevents your crystal from focusing itself, even if it has the ability to do so. This is more specific than the general rule that creatures with a power point reserve can meditate to gain focus.

[Xervous]

Does a feat that specifically says the psicrystal can regain its own psionic focus (i.e. psychic meditation) override Psicrystal Containment's prohibition?

also, if I manifest power X linked to Y on bob who is standing on the other side of the room, and before my next turn, I but not bob are put within the radius of an anti psionic field, does power Y go off? And is this considered as me manifesting power Y?

additionally.

i manifest X linked to Y at bob, I move, the place where I was is covered in an Anti psionic field. does y go off?

[ddude987]

Does a feat that specifically says the psicrystal can regain its own psionic focus (i.e. psychic meditation) override Psicrystal Containment's prohibition?

also, if I manifest power X linked to Y on bob who is standing on the other side of the room, and before my next turn, I but not bob are put within the radius of an anti psionic field, does power Y go off? And is this considered as me manifesting power Y?

additionally.

i manifest X linked to Y at bob, I move, the place where I was is covered in an Anti psionic field. does y go off?


one you intend to manifest in this round, and one you intend to manifest in the next round

You manifest X and intend to manifest Y. Intend: "to have in mind as something to be done or brought about." Therefore you are ready to manifest the next power.


you do not need to spend any of your actions or power points next round to manifest the linked power.

you...manifest the linked power. It specifically says you manifest the linked power.

[Psyren]

Note that you don't have to make any decisions about a power (targeting, area, effect etc.) until after you finish manifesting it. So when you manifest this turn's power, if your original target is somewhere (like an AMF) that would make it impossible to target them, you can target someone else.

However, your linked power will still target the same person as the first one.


Does a feat that specifically says the psicrystal can regain its own psionic focus (i.e. psychic meditation) override Psicrystal Containment's prohibition?

PC is still more specific because it specifically mentions psicrystals. If you don't have the feat then it could probably focus itself... but then you would be unable to use that focus anyway.

[Xervous]

Still, where is the second power coming from? Where you were standing last round (like repeat spell), where you are now?

And what of the "taking no actions to have the power take effect"? At face value that simply means any and all manifesting times are disregarded, but would that put a longer delay (than the one round from linked power) on such powers that have long casting times?

[Psyren]

Still, where is the second power coming from? Where you were standing last round (like repeat spell), where you are now?

And what of the "taking no actions to have the power take effect"? At face value that simply means any and all manifesting times are disregarded, but would that put a longer delay on such powers that have long casting times?

Linked Power is not the most well-defined metapsionic feat. Some of this may come down to your DM's preference.

Anyway, I would say the linked power comes from wherever you happen to be on the following round. You don't have to spend actions or PP, but you're still manifesting the linked power.

Not sure what you mean by "longer delay." All the manifesting time for LP is done up front, on the first turn.

[ddude987]

Linked Power is not the most well-defined metapsionic feat. Some of this may come down to your DM's preference.

Anyway, I would say the linked power comes from wherever you happen to be on the following round. You don't have to spend actions or PP, but you're still manifesting the linked power.

Not sure what you mean by "longer delay." All the manifesting time for LP is done up front, on the first turn.

So you manifest both powers the first turn? It seemed to say you manifest them on the turn they occur but manifesting the second power takes no actions.

[Xervous]

So all costs would be paid on the first action.

does this make 1 round psionic genesis work?

[Psyren]

So you manifest both powers the first turn? It seemed to say you manifest them on the turn they occur but manifesting the second power takes no actions.

No, I said the manifesting time is done all on one turn. The actual manifesting i.e. the powers coming out is done on separate turns.

This is why I said the feat is confusing :smalltongue:

[TuggyNE]

So, XPH introduced ability burn, right? And a few powers and feats use it, but not very many, because it's pretty serious. Because of that, I'm not quite sure how it's supposed to be used, in a system sense; how does it play out in practice, what sorts of things should reasonably inflict it, how else would you adapt it?

I guess this is sort of a homebrewing/houseruling philosophy question.

[Yora]

The reason is that the penalty of Body Fuel could be negated with a simple lesser restoration spell. And all psionic rules seem pretty adamant about never letting manifesters recharge their power points in any other way but resting. If Body fuel were to deal ability damage, potions of lesser restoration would effectively become mana potions for a character with the feat.


If a character takes Expanded Knowledge to learn a power that is on his own power list, but at a lower level on another power list, would he still have to pay the lower power point cost and therefore have more pp left for augmentation?
Since it takes a feat, I don't see any problem this would cause.

Say a psion 5 takes Expanded knowledge to learn biofeedback, but from the psychic warrior list. Manifesting the power would be 1 pp and he could augment with 3 pp to get DR 3/-.
Normally, a psion 5 would have to spend 3 pp to manifest the power and not have enough pp to augment it.

[Psyren]

If a character takes Expanded Knowledge to learn a power that is on his own power list, but at a lower level on another power list, would he still have to pay the lower power point cost and therefore have more pp left for augmentation?
Since it takes a feat, I don't see any problem this would cause.

Say a psion 5 takes Expanded knowledge to learn biofeedback, but from the psychic warrior list. Manifesting the power would be 1 pp and he could augment with 3 pp to get DR 3/-.
Normally, a psion 5 would have to spend 3 pp to manifest the power and not have enough pp to augment it.

You would pay the lower cost, yes. Your psion could even pick it up with Hidden Talent (the 1st-level version) and not have to wait until 3rd level.

[Rejusu]

So since the question "Do Psicrystals get feats?" is one already well-trodden. I'll ask the question "Should they get feats?". And assuming no feat leech shenanigans which feats are actually useful on them?

I mean considering you're spending a feat on what should really be a class feature I don't think it's particularly bad to rule that they get feats. Provided of course there's nothing too cheesy in there.

By the way, for anyone not familiar with the topic my understanding on why they get feats is here:
Essentially since unlike Familiars (who have HP equal to 1/2 their masters regardless of actual hit die) Psicrystals advance in hit die (as their hit die is explicitly stated as 1/2 their masters). What this means is that they advance as any other creature would when they gain hit die, and this includes feats (but not skill ranks, as these are specifically stated to be equal to their masters with a few exceptions).

[Psyren]

It depends on the power level of the campaign really. Most manifesting classes are strong enough without it though.

Note that this loophole was plugged in Pathfinder, for what it's worth, so DSP at least thought they didn't.

[Rubik]

The reason is that the penalty of Body Fuel could be negated with a simple lesser restoration spell. And all psionic rules seem pretty adamant about never letting manifesters recharge their power points in any other way but resting. If Body fuel were to deal ability damage, potions of lesser restoration would effectively become mana potions for a character with the feat.Actually, ability BURN can't be healed by any way but resting. You could PREVENT the burn through some means (such as the Psychic Bastion feat, from Hyperconscious, which gives you ability depletion resistance 3/-), but that's not the same thing.


Essentially since unlike Familiars (who have HP equal to 1/2 their masters regardless of actual hit die) Psicrystals advance in hit die (as their hit die is explicitly stated as 1/2 their masters).Actually, they gain HD at the same rate as their masters do, meaning a 12th level psion has a 12th level psicrystal.

I'd say they should gain feats (in 3.5, at least), since it makes them less of a liability. There's a reason why no wizard actually keeps their familiar around. They're too much of a liability. Feats can make them much harder to kill, which is exactly what you want for a companion.

After all, animal companions and such gain feats, and nobody has a problem with that.

[Rejusu]

Actually, they gain HD at the same rate as their masters do, meaning a 12th level psion has a 12th level psicrystal.

You know, I completely misread the stat block earlier. What's funny is I thought the half HD was strange because I could have sworn it was full HD progression. I fail at literacy it seems.


I'd say they should gain feats (in 3.5, at least), since it makes them less of a liability. There's a reason why no wizard actually keeps their familiar around. They're too much of a liability. Feats can make them much harder to kill, which is exactly what you want for a companion.

After all, animal companions and such gain feats, and nobody has a problem with that.

Yeah honestly I can't see it making them that much better than they already are. And as I said you have to spend a feat on them in the first place. I also don't really know which feats would make them much better anyway.

[Rubik]

Yeah honestly I can't see it making them that much better than they already are. And as I said you have to spend a feat on them in the first place. I also don't really know which feats would make them much better anyway.Any psionic feat you can use with Feat Leech. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/featLeech.htm)

Anything that could conceivably be used with Metamorphosis. (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm)

Mindsight, and Lifesense.

Wild Cohort. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)

And possibly Leadership, if you boost its Cha.

UMD/UPD-focused feats, so your psicrystal can utilize dorjes and wands.

Oh, and ranged feats for this. (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyConversion.htm)

There are lots of nice feats out there for a psicrystal, yes.

[Rejusu]

Any psionic feat you can use with Feat Leech. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/featLeech.htm)

Anything that could conceivably be used with Metamorphosis. (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm)

Mindsight, and Lifesense.

Wild Cohort. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a)

And possibly Leadership, if you boost its Cha.

UMD/UPD-focused feats, so your psicrystal can utilize dorjes and wands.

Oh, and ranged feats for this. (www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyConversion.htm)

There are lots of nice feats out there for a psicrystal, yes.

A lot depend on how lactose intolerant your DM is though. I was thinking more along the lines of what would fly in most games. Also Mindsight requires that your DM rule that the Psicrystals Telepathic Speech counts as the Telepathy special quality that forms the prereq for Mindsight.

EDIT: Looking at Lifesense as well it doesn't seem much better than the Psicrystals regular sight (which already works in darkness) unless you rule that it overcomes invisibility and etherealness. Plus considering 13 Cha is a prereq and Psicrystals only have 10 it seems like it'd require too much investment anyway.

Something like Darkstalker might be nice though. There's no prerequisites and it'd turn your Psicrystal into a more proficient scout.

[TuggyNE]

The reason is that the penalty of Body Fuel could be negated with a simple lesser restoration spell. And all psionic rules seem pretty adamant about never letting manifesters recharge their power points in any other way but resting. If Body fuel were to deal ability damage, potions of lesser restoration would effectively become mana potions for a character with the feat.

Well, yes. But, for example, why does psychofeedback use ability burn*? And are there logical places it should be used for other things?

*Also: that's my submission for worst power ever.


Actually, ability BURN can't be healed by any way but resting. You could PREVENT the burn through some means (such as the Psychic Bastion feat, from Hyperconscious, which gives you ability depletion resistance 3/-), but that's not the same thing.

I think Yora was (partially) answering my question about the philosophy of ability burn, rather than the specific earlier question about the mechanics of Body Fuel.

[Psyren]

Well, yes. But, for example, why does psychofeedback use ability burn*?

That one should be obvious - it's so you can't pump a stat by 20 and then use restoration to undo all the ability damage you took to another score, then repeating until you have +20 (untyped) to all your physical stats.


*Also: that's my submission for worst power ever.

I agree it's not good, but there are far worse out there in my opinion. One situational use is to pump your Con before attempting to throw off a nasty disease or some negative levels at bedtime (if there's no cure handy.)


And are there logical places it should be used for other things?

Pathfinder psionics puts it to good use; as you know, PF doesn't have XP costs, which left many 3.5 powers like Psychic Chirurgery and Metafaculty bereft of a balancing mechanic. For most, negative levels and ability burn were used as substitutes, allowing them to maintain the PF no-XP-cost philosophy while preventing such powers from being spammable.