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View Full Version : Fixing the 3e monk - 4e style



neonchameleon
2013-02-07, 12:18 PM
As is about as non-controversial as it's possible to get, the 3.X monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) has issues. And the 4e one rocks quite hard. Not especially a master at combat (but certainly no slouch), the 4e monk is a master of mobility. They won't win a head to head fight with a fighter unless they get really lucky, but they are wire-fu masters, able to run up the walls, and beat up archers and spellcasters while the fighter's still looking at the wall.

I'd therefore propose the following changes to the 3.5 Monk as fixes.

Basics
BAB: Monks get full BAB. Of course.
Skills: 6+Int. (They need more - actually I'd bump them to 8 and the rogue to 10 or 12).

Solving MAD
Precision Strike: When using a monk weapon or unarmed a monk may use wis or dex instead of strength for to hit and damage rolls.
Hardened Body: A monk may use strength instead of either Dex or Wis for their AC bonus and instead of Con for their Fort save

That cuts down the number of stats a monk needs and provides options for the wrinkly old master who never appears to move. They still are only about a rival for rogues. Still MAD - two stats for AC and no armour allowed. But it's now two stats and con rather than three so it's not as extreme.

Solving enchantments
Iron Hands: A monk may enchant their fists as weapons or their skin as armour. When using a specialist monk weapon that weapon uses the Monk Unarmed Damage damage value.

(Enchant the Monk itself - or don't lose damage by using a physical weapon)

Solving Flurry
Signature Strike: A monk may make a Signature Strike as a standard action at -2 to hit. They do this as a standard action which may be taken at any point during their move action (as for Spring Attack). As their Signature Strike they may make one of the following attacks although they may not repeat the strike they made the previous round:

Power Fist: Make the attack roll as normal but the Monk gets any or all of the following benefits to the attack. If the monk has the Stunning Fist feat they may expend a use of Stunning Fist. If they have the Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, or the Improved Bull Rush feats they may make a contest as normal for those feats in addition to doing damage.
Flurry of Blows: The monk makes two standard attacks (three at L6, four at L11, five at L15; only monk levels or specific prestige class levels qualify). Any of these may be trips, disarms, or bull rushes.
Spinning Attack: The monk makes a single attack against each enemy in reach - either a standard attack or a trip, disarm, or bull rush. A level 11 monk may do this twice.


Solving Movement
A monk gains additional Trained Movement whenever they take a move action - trained movement replaces a Monk's Unarmoured Speed Bonus and is 10ft faster. It also gains utilities as the Monk gains levels.
Level 1: A Monk as part of Trained Movement may run up or along walls.
Level 3: A Monk as part of Trained Movement may leap horizontally. They may also walk across substances like snow, rice paper, or even water as long as they only use trained movement to do so,
Level 5: A Monk as part of Trained Movement may leap any combination of vertically or horizontally.
Level 7: A Monk at this level may walk on air as long as they only use their trained movement while they do so. They need to be touching the ground to use their regular movement.
Level 9: A Monk at this level may walk through exclusively magical structures such as Walls of Force as a part of their trained movement as long as they do not end their movement inside them. This gives them no special knowledge of what is on the other side.
Level 11: A Monk at this level may walk through both physical and magical structures as long as they do not end their movement inside them.
Level 13: A Monk may extend their trained movement to any willing creatures they are touching.
Level 15: All movement for a Monk this level counts as trained movement.
L17: A Monk may cross planes and dimensions as for Plane Shift.
Level 19: A Monk may extend their trained movement to unwilling creatures they either touch or hit unless the target makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + ½ the monk’s level + the monk’s Wis modifier). (Yes, this does mean that a level 19 Monk can punch mooks through walls or into the floor at will).

Feats: A Monk may take Improved Bull Rush as a bonus L3 feat.

Would this be enough to fix the Monk? Note that nowhere have I made them ignore Attacks of Opportunity - so a fighter is meant to be able to pulverise them if the fighter gets close. What they specialise in is getting close to the enemies who really don't want them anywhere near and doing things those enemies don't want. And I'm trying to keep it classic 3.5 style - and aiming for Tier 3. I don't think there's anything game breaking in there but the monk is good at what they do.

neonchameleon
2013-02-08, 09:09 AM
Hmm... Tweaks:

Level 8: Freedom of Movement. A Monk at this level and above always counts as if they were under the influence of a Freedom of Movement spell. (It was a boring level anyway)

Ki Focus: A monk ignores a number of points of DR up to their monk level when attacking unarmed or with a monk weapon. This ability replaces the Ki Focus ability.

Honed Reflexes: A monk reduces the falling damage they take by 1d6 every two full levels. They also gain their monk level as a bonus to balance and tumble checks. A character who can walk on water naturally takes no penalty for balancing or tumbling on a slippery surface. This ability replaces the Slow Fall ability.

This leaves dead levels

Level 10: Etherial Strike A level 10 monk does full damage to insubstantial and etherial creatures.

Level 14: Caught in the act As a swift action a monk with this ability who moves through a square that someone teleported or plane shifted out of the previous round may follow them and end up in a square adjacent to their destination.

Level 18: Empty Mind Mind Blank whenever the Monk wishes.

SilverLeaf167
2013-02-10, 08:42 AM
I really like this and am interested to see this converted into an actual table with concrete mechanics.

Would this be enough to fix the Monk? Note that nowhere have I made them ignore Attacks of Opportunity - so a fighter is meant to be able to pulverise them if the fighter gets close. What they specialise in is getting close to the enemies who really don't want them anywhere near and doing things those enemies don't want. And I'm trying to keep it classic 3.5 style - and aiming for Tier 3. I don't think there's anything game breaking in there but the monk is good at what they do.
Why are you worried about attacks of opportunity? If you're talking about "unarmed attacks provoking AoOs", Improved Unarmed Strike already invalidates that problem.

Zilzmaer
2013-02-10, 10:04 AM
Why are you worried about attacks of opportunity? If you're talking about "unarmed attacks provoking AoOs", Improved Unarmed Strike already invalidates that problem.

Moving out of a threatened square provokes. Of course, with their fast movement and increased skill points, Tumble makes that a non-issue, too.

Edit: Always-on Freedom of Movement at level 8 is really powerful. A lot of monsters rely on their ability to grapple, and making monks immune for more than half their career seems iffy to me. Perhaps only for (level)rounds/day?

SilverLeaf167
2013-02-10, 10:12 AM
Moving out of a threatened square provokes. Of course, with their fast movement and increased skill points, Tumble makes that a non-issue, too.

Edit: Always-on Freedom of Movement at level 8 is really powerful. A lot of monsters rely on their ability to grapple, and making monks immune for more than half their career seems iffy to me. Perhaps only for (level)rounds/day?
I think that, instead, a boost on grapple (and maybe Escape Artist?) checks in general would be in place, since monks are supposed to be very good at that but tend to fall a little short. Maybe you could also allow them to make some sort of opposed Escape Artist check to treat spells as if under FoM?

holywhippet
2013-02-10, 06:13 PM
What are you trying to fix the monk compared to though? Other martial classes or all other classes?

The thing with 4E is that all classes essentially work the same way in combat for the most part. They all have the same restrictions with at will, encounter and daily powers. They just vary with how many targets they can hit, side effects, damaged caused etc.

This resulted in a fairly well balanced system where no classes stand head and shoulders above the others.

3E is not that kind of system - casters have limited spell slots but get progressively stronger magic available to them. Fighter types on the other hand can keep attacking at full strength ad infinitum (unless something happens to them) but they never get as much damage output (short of some serious rules abuse). That is supposed to be the balance between the two - limited slots but powerful vs. unlimited attacks but less powerful.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-02-10, 06:20 PM
Hmm. Intriguing. Kind of reminds me of my Speedster base class. Some thoughts:

Make the 1/day abilities Wisdom modifier/day instead.
Perhaps have a scaling bonus to the "movement" skills-- say, add your Monk level to Balance, Climb, Jump, Swim, and Tumble checks?
I think I saw someone recently suggest letting the monk enchant himself in a similar style to the soulknife, both for weapons and armor...

CarpeGuitarrem
2013-02-10, 07:07 PM
We don't need to fix the monk 4E style.

We need to fix it Oppa Gangnam Style.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-02-10, 07:39 PM
We don't need to fix the monk 4E style.

We need to fix it Oppa Gangnam Style.

http://tromoticons.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/facepalm.jpg?w=420