Quiet Killing (3.5): How to?

[Duke of Urrel]

Are there rules that determine whether a stealthy killer succeeds in killing quietly? For example, suppose the method is strangulation. That's a pretty quiet method of killing if it's done skillfully enough, but what kind of attack is it? Is it a grappling maneuver, whereby the killer must pin the victim until suffocation ensues, or is it a form of the assassin's death attack? Is a "garrote" described as an exotic weapon somewhere? Finally, what determines how silently the foul deed is done? Does the killer make a Move Silently check?

[Vaz]

Move Silently, plus opposed listen checks by nearby people if you are not able to kill on the first blow as he shouts out, and catch him before he falls to the ground in a clatter, or the sound of metal on metal as an assassination turns into anduel.

[Duke of Urrel]

That's a good start, and seems to suggest several rules right away:

1. You must achieve a quiet approach, using Move Silently skill.

2. Your attack must be a surprise attack, because an alert opponent will not keep quiet. This is a narrower category even than a sneak attack, because you must make the attack by surprise, not merely by flanking.

3. Your surprise attack must hit, not miss or strike solid armor with a loud thump or clang.

4. When you hit, you must prevent your victim from making noise. This is where we leave behind all the written rules that I know.

My general rule for doing things quietly is that there are two methods: (1) Act at half speed and make a Move Silently check, or (2) Act at full speed if slowing down is not an option (such as when you're attacking someone), but add a penalty to the Move Silently check, let's say –5.

What about this? Are there any rules I'm missing or violating here, or are these ideas rules-compatible?

[Telonius]

A scroll of Silence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silence.htm)means never having to say you're sorry.

(Why Silence isn't on the Assassin spell list is beyond me; but 22 is a fairly low UMD check to achieve for a higher-level Rogue or Assassin).

[LTwerewolf]

I had an item of persistent silence that I kept in an antimagic pouch. Pull it out, murder a few folks, put it away.

[ericgrau]

The pin maneuver does in fact let you cover the victim's mouth. If you both got the surprise round (via hide/move silently or magically) and won initiative you could pin a foe before he has a chance to speak. From that point you continue to pin him while dealing grapple damage until he dies.

I know you might want something more reliable, but consider it from the victim's POV. Would you want to be killed so easily and certainly without a chance to respond? Not unless the victim is weaker than the attacker. So this tactic is more for taking out targets who are weaker than you but who might alert several others which would pose more of a threat.

[KillianHawkeye]

What I would really like is a way to snap a guy's neck, since that is the quickest and quietest method of killing somebody in the movies.

[ericgrau]

I think that falls under fluff though, not mechanics. Mechanically neck snapping is either an unarmed strike death attack or an unarmed strike sneak attack.

If you let people stealthily insta-kill with no save regardless of the foe, it gets broken fast. If it only works against weaker foes, then a sneak attack or death attack will handle it.

I suppose the hard part of that is staying quiet with the -20 penalty for making an attack. Either the DM lets it slide for free, you get a +15 move silently item, you get a source of silence, and/or you homebrew a custom feat to reduce the penalty. But if it stacks with the magic item keep that in mind before you make the feat too crazy.

[Phelix-Mu]

Are there rules that determine whether a stealthy killer succeeds in killing quietly? For example, suppose the method is strangulation. That's a pretty quiet method of killing if it's done skillfully enough, but what kind of attack is it? Is it a grappling maneuver, whereby the killer must pin the victim until suffocation ensues, or is it a form of the assassin's death attack? Is a "garrote" described as an exotic weapon somewhere? Finally, what determines how silently the foul deed is done? Does the killer make a Move Silently check?

Pssst.....

Whisper gnomes. From Races of Stone, not only one of the coolest stealth races *evah*, but I believe that they have a racial feat called Silencing Strike that allows them to deliver their racial silence ability with a melee attack, IIRC. Definitely worth checking out. There may be other useful ambush feats in Complete Scoundrel, since there are other status effects that might conceivably silence a person (stunned is coming to mind...I think it prevents all actions by the target, which may include making any kind of voluntary noise). Note ambush feats require sneak attack.

There was a garrote somewhere.... This is a kind of weapon that you would probably be able to improvise as well. Not sure you'd get the nice rules, then, though.

[ksbsnowowl]

3.0's Song and Silence had rules for a garrote.

[Duke of Urrel]

I know you might want something more reliable, but consider it from the victim's POV. Would you want to be killed so easily and certainly without a chance to respond? Not unless the victim is weaker than the attacker. So this tactic is more for taking out targets who are weaker than you but who might alert several others which would pose more of a threat.

I'd like to look at this from both sides, both the killer's and the victim's. What I want to be reliable is the rule – which would determine, preferably without too much complexity, how powerful the killer must be to succeed.

Grappling and pinning are indeed a good basis for rules for a strangulation-based killing. Only two things need to be added to the basic rules for grappling.

Firstly (1): Suppose a tool like a garrotte enables a grappler with the right skill set (an assassin, certainly) to inflict lethal rather than nonlethal damage while grappling, without the usual –4 penalty. So the killing happens simply by Hit-Point loss, as usual.

Secondly (2): Killing quietly requires something extra, because usually even a pinned opponent tries to thrash around. Maybe one Move Silently check at –5 every round would do it.

I agree with your point that this kind of killing requires the victim to be weaker than the attacker. There's nothing "sporting" about murder like this.

[Agent 451]

What I would really like is a way to snap a guy's neck, since that is the quickest and quietest method of killing somebody in the movies.

Heh, reminds me of this top 15 list. (http://www.dorkly.com/article/45885/the-dorklyst-the-15-most-overpowered-weapons-in-videogame-history/page:3) See number one.

[Ravens_cry]

Coup de grâce is easily fluffed like this especially if, as mentioned, you use an unarmed strike.

[Duke of Urrel]

I think that falls under fluff though, not mechanics. Mechanically neck snapping is either an unarmed strike death attack or an unarmed strike sneak attack.

If you let people stealthily insta-kill with no save regardless of the foe, it gets broken fast. If it only works against weaker foes, then a sneak attack or death attack will handle it.

I agree.


I suppose the hard part of that is staying quiet with the -20 penalty for making an attack. Either the DM lets it slide for free, you get a +15 move silently item, you get a source of silence, and/or you homebrew a custom feat to reduce the penalty. But if it stacks with the magic item keep that in mind before you make the feat too crazy.

I didn't notice this part of what you said when I last posted. Yes, –20 is perhaps a better penalty than only –5. This parallels the speed penalties for Hide skill checks. The rules don't say anything about making a Move Silently skill check either while attacking or immediately after attacking (to silence the victim), but it makes sense that it should be –20.

Thanks!

[KillianHawkeye]

Coup de grâce is easily fluffed like this especially if, as mentioned, you use an unarmed strike.

But you can't coup de grace someone that you just snuck up behind. They have to be helpless.


The rules don't say anything about making a Move Silently skill check either while attacking or immediately after attacking (to silence the victim), but it makes sense that it should be –20.

Well -20 is the penalty for trying to Hide while attacking, so it makes sense. It's kinda weird that attacking is omitted from the description of Move Silently.

[Synovia]

Well -20 is the penalty for trying to Hide while attacking, so it makes sense. It's kinda weird that attacking is omitted from the description of Move Silently.
Stabbing someone in the back doesn't really make any noise.

Its almost impossible to say anything while being garrotted.

[Ravens_cry]

But you can't coup de grace someone that you just snuck up behind. They have to be helpless.

Then it's sneak attack on a surprise round. Enough to kill many mooks, but you aren't killing bosses in one hit with this unless you are very, very lucky.

[Phelix-Mu]

Stabbing someone in the back doesn't really make any noise.

Its almost impossible to say anything while being garrotted.

But a fair amount of flailing about is entirely possible while being garroted. There may also be audible blood spray, depending on the sharpness of the wire, the strength of the assailant, and the default violence level of the campaign.

*SORRY, KIDS, CAN'T SHOW THIS!*

[Synovia]

But a fair amount of flailing about is entirely possible while being garroted. There may also be audible blood spray, depending on the sharpness of the wire, the strength of the assailant, and the default violence level of the campaign.

*SORRY, KIDS, CAN'T SHOW THIS!*

Oh, I agree flailing about is definitely a possibility, especially when garrotting someone tends to pull them off their feet.

Audible blood spray though? I've never actually been close to someone being garroted, but I can't see blood spray being any louder than heavy breathing.

[Ravens_cry]

Even heavy breathing might be noticeable if it is unexpected. Humans are good at picking out human sounds. A bunch of flailing and squirming could be pretty noisy, again, especially if it isn't expected.

[Duke of Urrel]

One more thing. Let's say that you can avoid the –20 penalty to Move Silently if your surprise attack drops the victim (that is, reduces the victim to negative Hit-Points) in only one blow. If you achieve that, I'll say that you can make a penalty-free Move Silently check afterward to do the deed quietly. (This doesn't count the Move Silently check you have to make to take your victim by surprise in the first place.)

But if you're grappling with a foe that you're trying to strangle? That would require another Move Silently check for every attack roll you make, and each check would add –20. You'd avoid this penalty only if your first damage roll reduced your opponent to negative Hit-Points, which is not likely unless this opponent is a very poor combatant (such as a first-level commoner) or severely weakened to begin with. I'll stick with the rule that a typical garrotte only removes the –4 attack penalty for inflicting lethal rather than nonlethal damage (unless there's a more official rule somewhere).

Really quickly and quietly killing an evenly matched opponent, with a professional-grade garroting wire, would be an assassin's job, using the death attack and taking advantage of favorable odds, as usual. Maybe this weapon would even work like a dagger, using the same damage die if the death effect failed (because the victim made the Fortitude save).

Thanks for the help!

[Synovia]

Seems a bit punishing to me.

A military garrote (using wire, not rope) kills someone almost immediately. There is no real struggle. Even a rope based garrote tends to immediately crush the larynx and kill the person.

The only time there should be a struggle of any sort is if you fail the initial move silently check.

[ericgrau]

Hmmm I never noticed that the move silently -20 is only for running or charging, not attacking like hide is. I suppose that could make sense. Visually there's no way you can kill the guy without being out in the open, but noise is another matter.

[CTrees]

Seems a bit punishing to me.

A military garrote (using wire, not rope) kills someone almost immediately. There is no real struggle. Even a rope based garrote tends to immediately crush the larynx and kill the person.

The only time there should be a struggle of any sort is if you fail the initial move silently check.

The thing is, that's still basically true at low levels. You can't really push that realism any further, though, without starting to question things like "how is he still running around with a dozen arrows in his chest?" You know, the usually problems of superhuman durability at higher levels. "One shot, one kill" isn't a trope D&D does very well in any form beyond the first few levels, sadly.

[Rogue Shadows]

What I would really like is a way to snap a guy's neck, since that is the quickest and quietest method of killing somebody in the movies.

Quiet, maybe, insofar as the action itself is concerned; quick, however, it is not. Humans are not as easy to kill as movies would have to believe. It takes an awful lot of deliberate effort to snap someone's neck and the human instinct it to try and twist with whatever way it's being wrenched precisely to prevent neck-snapping, making it even harder.


"One shot, one kill" isn't a trope D&D does very well in any form beyond the first few levels, sadly.

I wouldn't really call it sad. One shot, one kill is for mooks and characters with levels in NPC classes.

[Phelix-Mu]

I wouldn't really call it sad. One shot, one kill is for mooks and characters with levels in NPC classes.

And also for unlucky player characters.:smallwink: