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Squark
2013-02-07, 01:29 PM
So, since this is a general RP thing, as opposed to really being system-specific, I figured this was probably the best place for it. Anyway, last night was the first session of an Edge of the Empire Campaign. We're going through the intro game's module as sort of a tutorial, but with our own characters. I'm playing a Han Solo-ish sort of character- Self-reliant smuggler who doesn't depend on anyone but himself and his own superstitions, with the opportunity for character development down the road. A bit Cliche, perhaps, but I thought it'd work well here.

So, anyway, the adventure opens with the party ducking into a cantina to escape pursuit. For the most part no real problem here- One of the characters bluffed his way into getting paid by the bartender to "protect the bar from the shakedown," but hey, I'm playing a smuggler- We did keep the Gamorreans from killing anyone, although we did end up doing some minor property damage. Still, no real problem at this point- We get paid, and the bartender tips us off on a way to get off planet by stealing a slaver's ship. Again, still not a problem for my character. Anyway, we head to the junkshop to get the part the ship needs before it can enter hyperspace. Junk dealer only has one part, and it's on reserve for the captain of the ship. A quick bluff check on my part, and he believes we're part of the crew come to pick up the part... But here's where things went sour. The part hasn't been paid for yet, and it's not cheap. We can certainly pay the 700 credits- It's a fair chunk of change (starting credits were 500 credits each), but several players took options that let them get additional starting credits, so we've got like 2000 credits on hand. But, the rest of the party's unhappy with this. So, plans are drawn up involving killing him to get the money back, framing the astromech droid, and the like. While my Character's trying to argue against leaving a trail of bodies behind us, one player takes matters into his own hands, and the next thing we know, one of the wookiees has become an axe-murderer. And of course, thoughts now go towards looting the junk shop.

Now, here's the issue. I'm fine with morally ambiguous characters, and I probably would have been fine if our bounty hunter had put a gun to the dealer's face and robbed the place or something. And it's one thing if my character's shooting Hutt lackies in self-defense- Those Gamorreans had probably crushed more than a few skulls in the service of the local Hutt, so my character's fine with that. But now we've just cut down a businessman who's only crime (as far as we know) is kicking a rather surly astromech droid.

So, I guess my issue is I wasn't expecting this sort of approach to game, so I created a fast talking, quick witted scoundrel, only to find the rest of my party is... Well... a bunch of thugs, instead of the rag-tag bunch of misfits I was expecting. And, frankly, it's frustrating, because in all honesty my Character should be freaking out right about now, but I don't want to be seen as a stick in the mud or something, especially since the University's Gamer's Association is my main social outlet.

So, does anyone have any tips on how to handle this?

Friv
2013-02-07, 02:21 PM
Well, I figure you've got four options, each of which depends a lot on the game you're in.

1) Portray your character as unused to that sort of violence, but have him slowly be corrupted by the other players. Play it up a little, act appalled without actually opposing anyone. Slowly become more violent as the game goes on. See if anyone notices that your arguments against violence get weaker each time it comes up, and your chances of starting violence go up.

2) Change your character such that he doesn't hate that kind of violence, only the chances of getting caught. Make him be as bad as the rest of the group, but a fast-talker because he's a bit of a coward at heart and talking people down means not getting shot in the face.

3) (Only if the group is cool with this, mind you) Be appalled, but privately. Start trying to turn the group against each other, ideally ending in a massive shoot-out where all the violent thugs kill each other and you walk away. Obviously just bailing is no good - these guys are hardened killers and you know too much. If there is even the slightest chance that this is going to cause serious OOC anger, though, do not do it.

4) Inform the group OOC that you didn't realize the style of game you were going for, and that you want to change your character to fit it better. Have your character bail on the party because he's now horrified of them, make a new character who is more in line with what they want, allow the GM to have the old character return as an antagonist down the road.

KillianHawkeye
2013-02-07, 02:33 PM
I completely agree with Friv's assessment of the situation.

As an alternative for turning the other PCs against one another, you could be waiting around for an opportunity to leave them high and dry within reach of the appropriate authorities.

Grod_The_Giant
2013-02-07, 02:42 PM
Friv does indeed cover most of the main points. The question about which option you take depends on whether or not you, as a player and a person, are a fan of that kind of playstyle. If you are, then options 1 and 4 are good. If you're not... you need to have an OOC talk with your friends about the direction the game seems to be taking.

Squark
2013-02-07, 02:57 PM
Given the group, I think the second option or perhaps a combination of the third and fourth option is probably the best. I could try playing my character as the soft face of the group who deplores violence out of self-preservation, or I could talk with the GM about the possibility of my character pulling a double cross (He knows the group better than me, so he also is a better judge of how that would go over).


EDIT: Sent the GM an e-mail about possible options. Thanks for the help everyone.

Ozfer
2013-02-07, 05:32 PM
Personally I'd go with Killian's idea, but again, make sure the group is ok with this. Additionally, you could try to minimize casualties along the way.

Squark
2013-02-07, 11:08 PM
Haven't gotten a definitive answer yet from the GM, but I'm probably going to keep the character. I'll work it out with him as to whether my character is subtly working against the party, or if I recast myself as the "slightly less bad cop" in our negotiations- "Now, you see, my friend, I like you. But my wookiee associates here? They don't. And I'm afraid the one on the right is getting rather bored, and I know for a fact he carries some truly... terrifying tools of surgery. I'd hate for things to get out of hand, but... Well, I'm sure we can come to an agreement that will benefit us all, right?"

Slipperychicken
2013-02-07, 11:37 PM
So, does anyone have any tips on how to handle this?

Well, first off, welcome to the wonderful world of RPG murder-hobos! Allegedly-Good-aligned PCs who slaughter indiscriminately and will gladly sell their beloved relatives into slavery for fistful of cash are aplenty here. Players to whom "roleplaying" is the means by which additional cash is extracted from NPCs without killing them. Such gaming groups are the very reason which alignment axes and karma systems exist; as a thin red line to make PCs shrug prior to delving to depths of moral horror which would make war-criminals blink.

Whether you approve or not, your group will certainly loot the shop and pawn the stuff before stealing the slaver-ship.

I once got my gaming group to back down from killing a shopkeeper and looting the shop by convincing them the authorities would be onto us. That was almost enough -I needed some good Grapple rolls too, to prevent the Drow from running out with an axe. Throwing the shopkeep some cash to keep him quiet also helped.

Jay R
2013-02-08, 12:04 AM
It's a Star Wars campaign?

Wave your fingers and say, "You do not want to kill the shopkeeper."

"You want to go home and rethink your life."

The Glyphstone
2013-02-08, 12:10 AM
It's a Star Wars campaign?

Wave your fingers and say, "You do not want to kill the shopkeeper."

"You want to go home and rethink your life."

"You think you're some kind of Jedi? I'm a PC. Mind tricks don't work on me. Only money (or XP)."

Slipperychicken
2013-02-08, 12:33 AM
"You think you're some kind of Jedi? I'm a PC. Mind tricks don't work on me. Only money (or XP)."

Well, according to KotOR, people (or at least Selkath judges) can develop resistances to mind-tricks. So maybe the PCs hit each other enough times that they become immune.

Thrawn4
2013-02-08, 06:08 AM
I would like to add a suggestion that I call 3b:
You can be privately appalled, but for some reason (sure the DM can help you here) you still have to work with them which is why you keep your doubts to yourself. Maybe you all have some goal in common, albeit for different reasons, and it is reasonable for you to stick with them for the greater good. You are a rag-tag guy who never enjoyed some fancy privileges, so you have to put up with the thugs you are given.

Squark
2013-02-08, 08:48 AM
Oh, they looted the store (Could have been worse- In the end, all they stole was the part we needed, and the lockbox under the counter. Well, and the Astromech droid, but in all honesty, it wanted to come anyway). Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't end up turning spaceport control into a slaughterhouse. At this point, my character is stuck with them for the moment, since we are on the run from the local crime boss (And hiding in the desert is probably not an option).

On alignment systems- Edge of the Empire does not have one. Would DS points have made my fellow players think again? I don't know.

Slipperychicken
2013-02-08, 11:46 AM
On alignment systems- Edge of the Empire does not have one. Would DS points have made my fellow players think again? I don't know.

You could try embracing it and/or shaming the other players for being total murder hobos.

Alejandro
2013-02-08, 11:57 AM
It sounds like you have immature or disinterested players. But my guess can be way off, not having any first hand experience. But really, does your independent minded smuggler want to have his whole career shot down because he has a rap for aiding and abetting sociopathic murderers?

KillianHawkeye
2013-02-08, 12:36 PM
It sounds like you have immature or disinterested players. But my guess can be way off, not having any first hand experience. But really, does your independent minded smuggler want to have his whole career shot down because he has a rap for aiding and abetting sociopathic murderers?

I don't think this is really a maturity issue.

Some people play the game to weave an interesting story of drama and intrigue. Others play it for hack-and-slash and to get XP and loot. Sounds like the OP just has a difference in play-style.

Thrysierius
2013-02-08, 12:54 PM
You could try embracing it and/or shaming the other players for being total murder hobos.

Murder hobos, still makes me giggle every time.

I had a group that was like this in college. I played a wandering cleric. What I ended up doing was secretly tipping off the local authorities and having them still attack me (but doing more sub-dual than I KEEEL YOU damage).

Your character should freak out, and rightfully so. When you do though, just tell them you don't want to get caught and you're afraid of jail time. Being a Scoundrel I'm going to assume you have Deception and Use Computer trained. A good Use Computer check and you could leave digital bread crumbs for the fuzz to follow. If you're trained in Mechanics, you could combine it with Use Computer to reprogram that Astromech into doing it for you.

*EDIT* There's also nothing from stopping to to alerting the authorities of a heist ahead of time later on. Leaving a trail of bodies WILL cause the locals to take notice. You'd have to jump systems all the time to avoid this for very long.

Alejandro
2013-02-08, 01:05 PM
You're bad at reading, Thryserius. ;) They aren't playing Saga, they're playing Edge of the Empire. Your advice is valid though.

Usually, I find that the more a player wants to resolve a not-I-got-attacked situation with random murder, the less mature they are. I could name at least two occurrences of this in my own group.

Friv
2013-02-08, 01:47 PM
Personally I'd go with Killian's idea, but again, make sure the group is ok with this. Additionally, you could try to minimize casualties along the way.

The reason I wasn't going to suggest Killian's idea is that players are more likely to be okay with PvP than with one player basically turning them over to the GM to be killed. A game where a group of criminals betray and murder one another, and no one benefits, is a lot more thematic and likely to lead to fun even if everyone is dead than a game where one player pits himself against every other play and brings a large group of NPCs in on his side.

Squark
2013-02-08, 02:11 PM
Edge of the Empire is a bit harder to pick up a wide variety of skills for. I've got basic training in mechanics and no computer skills at this juncture. I do have some XP floating around, so I can start boosting my mechanical skills for this, though.

Maturity wise... Well, this is a bunch of college guys, but I don't know exactly. I get the feeling an, "Everyone out for themselves" Manipulation isn't going to work, especially considering the IC/OOC issues we had with the party planning the murder (GM: "Uh... Are you guys saying this in character?"). Doesn't help we're in a basically lawless area at the moment, though.

Think I'm going to play this by ear after talking with the GM.

Narren
2013-02-08, 02:13 PM
It might be hard to tell so soon into the campaign, but what do you think is guiding their actions? Are they playing a group of thugs and killers that take what they want? Or are they just not playing...anything?

I compare it to playing a video game. When I play Skyrim, I'm not really role-playing. I'll help people in distress and yada yada, but I'm also looting every lockbox I see, and stealing what I can if I can do so without getting caught. And I'll play the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood missions, just because they're in the game.

But I feel that when you're playing a table top RPG with other players, role-playing and consistency become much more important.

Slipperychicken
2013-02-08, 02:29 PM
I compare it to playing a video game. When I play Skyrim, I'm not really role-playing. I'll help people in distress and yada yada, but I'm also looting every lockbox I see, and stealing what I can if I can do so without getting caught. And I'll play the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood missions, just because they're in the game.


Personally, after the first two Thieves Guild missions, I heard someone say off-hand that "if only someone would go down and kill all of them". I realized the Thieves Guild was just a bunch of thugs terrorizing ordinary people, so I went to kill them since the guard wouldn't. I tried on repeated occasions against their corrupt matron-lady and the guild itself. The game said they were unkillable and I couldn't renounce my membership, so I quit the game soon afterward for being so railroady.

Harkoth
2013-02-08, 02:41 PM
As a player, it is no fun playing with a bunch of people who think roleplaying is simply choosing slash or pierce based on your mood. Sometimes the party just needs a little guidance and they remember roleplaying is more fun than video game style looting.

As a DM, when the players want to turn in to bloodthirsty thugs... there are consequences. Big ones. This shopkeeper should turn out to be the brother-in-law of the biggest crime boss in that whole galaxy. The next guy they murder will be the son-in-law of a very high ranking military commander or rebellion or whatever authority has the potential to make life hard. And, of course, somehow these big guys learn of the crimes and who committed them. It's the same way you train a puppy not to crap on the floor. A loud sound and a hard enough whack to be uncomfortable before tossing outside. Once the players spend enough time outside in the cold, they'll figure out on their own that skills will get them farther than murder and plunder, and they'll probably start having more fun too.

Friv
2013-02-08, 03:59 PM
As a player, it is no fun playing with a bunch of people who think roleplaying is simply choosing slash or pierce based on your mood. Sometimes the party just needs a little guidance and they remember roleplaying is more fun than video game style looting.

As a DM, when the players want to turn in to bloodthirsty thugs... there are consequences. Big ones. This shopkeeper should turn out to be the brother-in-law of the biggest crime boss in that whole galaxy. The next guy they murder will be the son-in-law of a very high ranking military commander or rebellion or whatever authority has the potential to make life hard. And, of course, somehow these big guys learn of the crimes and who committed them. It's the same way you train a puppy not to crap on the floor. A loud sound and a hard enough whack to be uncomfortable before tossing outside. Once the players spend enough time outside in the cold, they'll figure out on their own that skills will get them farther than murder and plunder, and they'll probably start having more fun too.

I cannot stress how awful this advice is. Your players are not puppies and you are not their benevolent overlord.

If you have problems with your group's gamestyle, Harkoth, you talk to them about it OOC, you don't turn the game into a morass that no one is entertained by.

KillianHawkeye
2013-02-08, 09:19 PM
I cannot stress how awful this advice is. Your players are not puppies and you are not their benevolent overlord.

If you have problems with your group's gamestyle, Harkoth, you talk to them about it OOC, you don't turn the game into a morass that no one is entertained by.


I completely agree with Friv's assessment of the situation.

I figured it would be faster to just quote myself. :smallbiggrin:

Narren
2013-02-09, 02:14 AM
I cannot stress how awful this advice is. Your players are not puppies and you are not their benevolent overlord.

If you have problems with your group's gamestyle, Harkoth, you talk to them about it OOC, you don't turn the game into a morass that no one is entertained by.

I also find it a bit unrealistic that every person they victimize just so happens to be connected to someone powerful, AND those powerful people know who the PC's are and what they did "somehow."

Sometimes, the players WANT to play some blood thirsty thugs, and that can be a fun campaign.

Slipperychicken
2013-02-09, 03:00 AM
I also find it a bit unrealistic that every person they victimize just so happens to be connected to someone powerful, AND those powerful people know who the PC's are and what they did "somehow."


They actually are. That "someone" is the police, or whoever is in charge of keeping the peace. Anyone who has an interest in maintaining commerce is now the PCs enemy.

The cops hear about a gang of heavily-armed-and-dangerous lunatics running around whacking shopkeeps, they're going to come down on them like a ton of bricks. That is, pull out all the stops and send in the most elite badasses in the force, while swarming them with officers. If that fails, they call in the regional militia, then the military-grade SpecOps badasses.

It makes sense for the cops to be strong; they have to take down every other punk, gang, and psychopath who disturbs the law. If they were such pushovers, the state couldn't function.

They also investigate the murder, and track the PCs down. They can expect a response much quicker (1d4 days?) if the PCs weren't smart about it (left prints all over the body from looting it, shoemarks at the crime scene, stray hair, blood, etc). Obviously, before lethal force, they ask for surrender (and if the PCs do surrender, the damning evidence against them sentences them pretty much immediately, for 25-to-life at least, if not death sentence).

Squark
2013-02-09, 09:42 AM
To a point, yes, but we're in a town that makes Mos Eisley look like a great place to raise a family.

On the topic of players and police- I'd say its fine for the player's actions to have reasonable consequences, but actively screwing them over is crossing the line.

And power wise... If the players want to play a bunch of bloodthirsty thugs, the authorities should be powerful, but they're ultimately meant to be defeated, after all.

Scow2
2013-02-09, 10:40 AM
To a point, yes, but we're in a town that makes Mos Eisley look like a great place to raise a family.

On the topic of players and police- I'd say its fine for the player's actions to have reasonable consequences, but actively screwing them over is crossing the line.

And power wise... If the players want to play a bunch of bloodthirsty thugs, the authorities should be powerful, but they're ultimately meant to be defeated, after all.If it's such a town - why is a businessman with access to such wealth so vulnerable that a bunch of thugs could just up and kill him for his wares? Surely he'd have bodyguards or autoturrets.

And Authorities shouldn't be designed to be "Meant to be defeated" - Although they should still 'play by the rules'.

Squark
2013-02-09, 12:10 PM
If it's such a town - why is a businessman with access to such wealth so vulnerable that a bunch of thugs could just up and kill him for his wares? Surely he'd have bodyguards or autoturrets.

And Authorities shouldn't be designed to be "Meant to be defeated" - Although they should still 'play by the rules'.

Because A) It's an introductory adventure (And thus supposed to be forgiving), and B) If I had to guess, he's mostly relying on protection money paid to the local Hutt. Except said Hutt is already out to kill us, so... And it's not like he was rich- This was a junk shop after all.

And on authorities... depends on the campaign and the narrative you're going for. In some campaigns, the Police are just another flavor of enemies alongside Different Gangs.

KillianHawkeye
2013-02-09, 03:47 PM
If it's such a town - why is a businessman with access to such wealth so vulnerable that a bunch of thugs could just up and kill him for his wares? Surely he'd have bodyguards or autoturrets.


If I had to guess, he's mostly relying on protection money paid to the local Hutt. Except said Hutt is already out to kill us, so... And it's not like he was rich- This was a junk shop after all.

I have to agree with Squark. Watto's shop in The Phantom Menace didn't have any security to speak of, either. If Qui-Gon had been a violent murder-hobo, that scene would have ended very differently (and the movie would only have been half as long).

Alejandro
2013-02-10, 12:17 AM
Oh, it had security; it's the social contract. Especially in a place like Tatooine where there isn't a lot of room for randomly wasting lives. If you just start murdering people, the town as a whole will eventually turn on you as a group, because you're a public menace. It doesn't matter how rough or 'bad' the place is, people still want to stay alive and to have stores to trade at.

Hopeless
2013-02-10, 06:34 AM
Because A) It's an introductory adventure (And thus supposed to be forgiving), and B) If I had to guess, he's mostly relying on protection money paid to the local Hutt. Except said Hutt is already out to kill us, so... And it's not like he was rich- This was a junk shop after all.

And on authorities... depends on the campaign and the narrative you're going for. In some campaigns, the Police are just another flavor of enemies alongside Different Gangs.

Oh trust me if thats the adventure I think it is you needn't worry about them killing every npc you come across as quite a few of them should be indispensible to your PCs and more than a few they'll have problems killing without reprisals!.

Do not read if you're running characters in the Edge of the Empire Beginner Box Game!
Oh have they met the Stormtroopers yet?:smallwink:

Hopeless
2013-02-10, 06:37 AM
I have to agree with Squark. Watto's shop in The Phantom Menace didn't have any security to speak of, either. If Qui-Gon had been a violent murder-hobo, that scene would have ended very differently (and the movie would only have been half as long).

As I recall Watto owed money well more money after the pod race ended since he bet against Anakin with the Hutts but at least one or more of them would have noticed but until the Jedi supplement comes out we'll never know if that action would have sent a Jedi to the dark side enough that it would have meant Darth Maul was actually the good guy in the first movie!:smallbiggrin:

KillianHawkeye
2013-02-10, 09:06 AM
As I recall Watto owed money well more money after the pod race ended since he bet against Anakin with the Hutts but at least one or more of them would have noticed but until the Jedi supplement comes out we'll never know if that action would have sent a Jedi to the dark side enough that it would have meant Darth Maul was actually the good guy in the first movie!:smallbiggrin:

Using punctuation would greatly help me understand what the heck you just tried to say.... :smallsigh:

Squark
2013-02-10, 10:58 PM
Going with the "My character is also a scumbag, but a different kind of scumbag" route. Less potential to alienate the other guys later. Besides, I've got a great idea for a con to get us into the spaceport. Now, to find two pairs of binders/some shock collars for our wookiees. :smallamused: