OOTS #868 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Agnostik]

Nergal will eat your soul, Belkar. :smallfrown:

[Drakeburn]

Nergal will eat your soul, Belkar. :smallfrown:

Does Belkar even have a soul? :smalltongue:

BTW: Yay for the new comic!

[Wyntonian]

I tried to make an "If it fits, I sits" joke related to Belkar and reptilian heads, but it's not coming to me. My apologies.

[Codyage]

Silly Belkar, looks like we are in for more shenanigans!

[theinsulabot]

you know, a while back roy said belkar was going to be the responsibility of someone in long black robes and a large scythe.


missed it by thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat much.

[Commander672]

On the one hand, epicly experienced wizard vs a mere ranger.

On the other hand: Melee range.

[Giggling Ghast]

Well, it was nice knowing you, Belkar.

I wish I had a Tartarus pug. :smalltongue:

[Grimly Feendish]

Now what will Malack do? He doesn't have anything particular against Belkar and the LG is supposed to be following the OoTS to the Gate, not trying to kill them.

[fergo]

This is... not going to end well :smalleek:.

For Belkar, at least. To be fair, Malack might well be the more sympathetic character :smallbiggrin:.

[pendell]

Huzzah!

Well, that's a dramatic setup. I can't wait to see how it turns out.

Mano-a-mano duel between Belkar and the cleric .. hrm, I think Belkar can take him if he gets a surprise round.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Quorothorn]

I await the next strip with great anticipation.
This gonna be good.

[theinsulabot]

I just noticed it looks like scruffy is trying to warn belkar in panel 10

[fergo]

Now what will Malack do? He doesn't have anything particular against Belkar and the LG is supposed to be following the OoTS to the Gate, not trying to kill them.

But of course Belkar will almost certainly try and kill him, even if Malack doesn't attack first.

...Right?

[super dark33]

If these were only stairs....

i warned you about wheelchair stairs bro!
I told you dog!

[GnomeGninjas]

On the one hand, epicly experienced wizard vs a mere ranger.

On the other hand: Melee range.

He's a cleric, not a wizard.

[Don Ohnic]

Brilliant!

The Lizgreaper approaches...

[Marnath]

Now what will Malack do? He doesn't have anything particular against Belkar and the LG is supposed to be following the OoTS to the Gate, not trying to kill them.

He might not be hostile to the OoTS, but I doubt Belkar is going to give the situation any thought so I predict that Malack will have to kill him in self-defense.

[denthor]

There is something very wrong that Belkar would be happy to V!! Oh, well I hope it is a good fight.

[Giggling Ghast]

Brilliant!

The Lizgreaper approaches...

Do fear the Lizgreaper?

[HUMVEE Driver]

Frack! I think this is more character development for Belkar! Really, does he need it? Stick me on the side that says 'no'. Though I suppose he is due...

Personally, I think things may be gearing up for The Death of Belkar. And his possible redemption. Good, though - it means the story is progressing. Eventually we are going to get to comic #1,000, and it's no stretch to assume big things will happen there.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Yeah, I guess we didn't see this one coming. So the real question is, "does Malack have any non-lethal save-or-dies prepared?"

[Shred-Bot]

All right!

Is it just me or does Malack look sort of cuddly there? At the very least he seems content to be wandering the empty, trapped pyramid.

Also... would Malack and Belkar even recognize each other? They haven't had much face-to-face time at all.

[Barsoom]

Huzzah!

Well, that's a dramatic setup. I can't wait to see how it turns out.

Mano-a-mano duel between Belkar and the cleric .. hrm, I think Belkar can take him if he gets a surprise round.How can he possibly get a surprise round? In the last panel, he's speakingto Mr. Scruffy while Malak is right around the corner. I think that pretty much ruins all chances of surprise, unless Malak has gone deaf since we last saw him.

If anything, it's Malak who's supposed to get the surprise round. Belkar knows someone's coming, but doesn't know it's a hostile.

[Thlayli]

I for one am thrilled that we are getting new comics with some frequency! The thumb is hopefully rehabbing nicely.

[RedWarrior0]

you know, a while back roy said belkar was going to be the responsibility of someone in long black robes and a large scythe.


missed it by thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat much.

Just waiting for Malak's staff to be a Rod of Turning Into a Giant Scythe.

[Cuthalion]

Oo. I like. I think they probably won't fight, due to the fact that Malack's pals have deserted him (Hah, pun) and Belkar probably doesn't recognize him.

[Zubrowka74]

Is that really an Yngwie Malmsteen reference in the title ?

[Welf]

I didn't see that coming. This will be awesome :smallbiggrin:

[Trixie]

The suspense in the air, it kills :smallcool:

Yes, I know, kind of lame pun >_<

[Morty]

At least Belkar will die knowing that he finally made a succesful Listen check.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Hmm... Time for Belkar to Cash in His Chips? We all know Belkar is going to die before the end of the comic, but darned few NPCs can actually take the Belkster down.

Malak is one of the few, but he doesnt have any reason to, except in self-defense. If Belkar dies right now, it will be self inflicted...

[factotum]

Now what will Malack do? He doesn't have anything particular against Belkar and the LG is supposed to be following the OoTS to the Gate, not trying to kill them.

Er, so what were they trying to do outside when they were dropping Vitriolic Spheres, Flame Strikes and other such goodness on them? As for Malack not having anything against Belkar, I'm sure he doesn't have anything against Durkon either but he still demanded that he be the one who gets to kill him.

Given this meeting and Belkar's ominous final sentence (which I think is alluding to the fact that Roy knows Belkar is due to die soon), I reckon this is curtains for Belkar...and not before time, frankly, let's hope the murderous little git gets everything that's coming to him!

[t209]

I have a bad feeling about this! Zombie belkar!

[Snails]

Welcome to undeath, little buddy!

[Gift Jeraff]

Without any other Linear Guilder watching, Malack might actually want to keep Belkar alive, being an enemy of Nale and all.

Though Belkar might ultimately decide that killing Malack would be in his best interests.

[theinsulabot]

The suspense in the air, it kills :smallcool:

Yes, I know, kind of lame pun >_<


nono, you are thinking of harm. or possibly slay living. or maybe...well, you see where I am going with this.

[LuPuWei]

But who shall unleash upon whom? :smalleek:

[Commander672]

He's a cleric, not a wizard.

Frankly, I see no difference except one's more medic-oriented.

[Firemeier]

Is that really an Yngwie Malmsteen reference in the title ?

No, it's a reference to back when they were getting horses and Belkar wanted a badass riding dog to "unleash the fury" but got a wiener dog instead. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0140.html) And now he's sorta kinda "riding" the hellhound.

[WindStruck]

Yes, all chihuahua are pandemonium chihuahua...

In fact, I think all DOGS are some sort of "infernal destroyer" that can choose to specialize in: furniture, shoes, stuffed items such as pillows or plushies, or any misc object (including WALLS) for that matter.

[Forikroder]

this is bad news for Tarquin he was relying on Malack to cure the kobold

i wonder if the kobold is out of commision (and likely to remina that way) because Belkar is about to get killed so his evil opposite is unnecesary...

also i wonder how serious Malack is going to take this, Tarquin thought Belkar was just for comedy purposes so Malack may not see him as a real fighter

[CarpeGuitarrem]

OH SNAP. :smalleek:

[ReaderAt2046]

Woot! New Comic!

[Nettlekid]

I predict no battle. There's probably going to be a few lines where Belkar attacks Malack thinking he's a giant kobold, and when it's cleared up Belkar will lose interest. Except in martial prowess Malack is more powerful than Belkar in every way (and even that could be rectified with a simple Divine Power.) If Belkar attacks wildly, I predict a quick Hold Person and then Malack will stop to think about the situation. Malack is quite clearly Neutral, not Evil, like he was saying to Durkon about his god. He's not going to attack anyone he randomly finds. What's more, he is deeply opposed to working with Nale and in fact he is against harming the OotS at all, as far as I see. He has no reason to dislike them, and he is friends with Durkon. With Nale not around and no reason to pretend to be allies (yes, I think Tarquin and Malack are planning to backstab Nale at the end of this, based on a few choice remarks made between the two of them) then Malack will act fairly and rationally, working to his greater end and that of his friend Tarquin. I predict that Malack and Belkar will either find Vaarsuvius or in some other way determine that the genocide in Girard's temple is Vaarsuvius' fault, and Belkar may have a shocking moment of "Wow, I thought I was Evil, but that's...something else." This might lead to the Oracle's prediction not of Belkar's death, but when the Oracle mentioned offhandedly that Belkar was going to somehow cause Vaarsuvius' death ("And as for the elf-"). Belkar's death may follow not long after. But Malack and Belkar won't kill each other now.

[suszterpatt]

After such an ominous setup, one thing is certain.


The next strip will cut away to someplace else.

[Onyavar]

Wait... Belkar made a Listen check???

Wait... did Malack made his Listen check???

Isn't "Listen" a wisdom-based ability, so that Malack has more of it than Belkar?

[Forikroder]

I predict no battle. There's probably going to be a few lines where Belkar attacks Malack thinking he's a giant kobold, and when it's cleared up Belkar will lose interest. Except in martial prowess Malack is more powerful than Belkar in every way (and even that could be rectified with a simple Divine Power.) If Belkar attacks wildly, I predict a quick Hold Person and then Malack will stop to think about the situation. Malack is quite clearly Neutral, not Evil, like he was saying to Durkon about his god. He's not going to attack anyone he randomly finds. What's more, he is deeply opposed to working with Nale and in fact he is against harming the OotS at all, as far as I see. He has no reason to dislike them, and he is friends with Durkon. With Nale not around and no reason to pretend to be allies (yes, I think Tarquin and Malack are planning to backstab Nale at the end of this, based on a few choice remarks made between the two of them) then Malack will act fairly and rationally, working to his greater end and that of his friend Tarquin. I predict that Malack and Belkar will either find Vaarsuvius or in some other way determine that the genocide in Girard's temple is Vaarsuvius' fault, and Belkar may have a shocking moment of "Wow, I thought I was Evil, but that's...something else." This might lead to the Oracle's prediction not of Belkar's death, but when the Oracle mentioned offhandedly that Belkar was going to somehow cause Vaarsuvius' death ("And as for the elf-"). Belkar's death may follow not long after. But Malack and Belkar won't kill each other now.
Malack knows Belkar is part fo the OoTS unless Malack plans to double cross Tarquin, or the imps final words made him worry hell kill Belkar

[DaveMcW]

As for Malack not having anything against Belkar, I'm sure he doesn't have anything against Durkon either but he still demanded that he be the one who gets to kill him.

"I alone shall handle the dwarf." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html)

"We agreed Brother Thundershield was not to be harmed!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html)

Doesn't sound like he wants Durkon dead.

[Forikroder]

"I alone shall handle the dwarf." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html)

"We agreed Brother Thundershield was not to be harmed!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0847.html)

Doesn't sound like he wants Durkon dead.

he wants durkon dead by his hand as a form of respect

[CoffeeIncluded]

I hope Belkar's got his will updated. Or not, it might benefit the party more that way.

[Solse]

Remember Elan's "lizgreaper" comment?

[Marnath]

Wait... Belkar made a Listen check???

Wait... did Malack made his Listen check???

Isn't "Listen" a wisdom-based ability, so that Malack has more of it than Belkar?

He gets a better bonus to it from wisdom, but he probably lacks the actual skill ranks to do much listening. Although Belkar hasn't taken many ranks either.

[Gift Jeraff]

I don't get where the idea that Malack is significantly more powerful than the OOTS comes from. His attempts to kill [who he thought was] his hated enemy have involved Blade Barrier, Harm, and Quickened Inflict Moderate Wounds. Nothing too impressive.

[Forikroder]

I don't get where the idea that Malack is significantly more powerful than the OOTS comes from. His attempts to kill [who he thought was] his hated enemy have involved Blade Barrier, Harm, and Quickened Inflict Moderate Wounds. Nothing too impressive.

everyone just completely obsessed with Tarquin and his party and think there all epic level

[Once a Fool]

On the one hand, epicly experienced wizard vs a mere ranger.

On the other hand: Melee range.

Malack is neither epic, nor wizard. What he is is a high-level death cleric who is known to use a harm + quickened inflict moderate wounds one-two punch.

And Belkar isn't wielding any weapons at the moment.

Edit=Ninja'd!

[Snails]

I don't get where the idea that Malack is significantly more powerful than the OOTS comes from. His attempts to kill [who he thought was] his hated enemy have involved Blade Barrier, Harm, and Quickened Inflict Moderate Wounds. Nothing too impressive.

We do not know for certain.

Malack and Tarquin appear to have a relationship of mutual respect and are long time time fellow travelers (party members). That suggests (but does not prove) they are of very similar level -- that is how it tends to work in D&D, FWIW.

Tarquin is provably two or more levels higher than Durkon, and can hold his own for a few rounds against all the melee attacks the Order can dish out.

Does that mean Malack is 2+ levels higher than Belkar? Perhaps. It is a decent guess, isn't it?

[crimsonjoe]

You know, Belkar might not run into Malack if he knew where to go to rejoin the party.

He "shouldacheckedamap" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html).

[Forikroder]

We do not know for certain.

Malack and Tarquin appear to have a relationship of mutual respect and are long time time fellow travelers (party members). That suggests (but does not prove) they are of very similar level -- that is how it tends to work in D&D, FWIW.

Tarquin is provably two or more levels higher than Durkon, and can hold his own for a few rounds against all the melee attacks the Order can dish out.

Does that mean Malack is 2+ levels higher than Belkar? Perhaps. It is a decent guess, isn't it?

2 levels is probably a good estimate, and that doesnt put him as significantly more powerful Belkar is in the best possible situation to take down Malack, hes in melee range will probably get first initiative, can hide in the labyrinth and find Malack much more easily then Malack can find him

think of how Belkar solo'd Miko

[theinsulabot]

I don't get where the idea that Malack is significantly more powerful than the OOTS comes from. His attempts to kill [who he thought was] his hated enemy have involved Blade Barrier, Harm, and Quickened Inflict Moderate Wounds. Nothing too impressive.

harm and inflict critical wounds would quite possibly kill belkar. if it didn't he wouldnt have much HP left. I am betting on a destruction though, to prevent him from being raised. the fact that belkar just ran into someone who almost certainly has destruction, a spell that wrecks havok with resurrection attempts, alone, right around his prophecy date strikes me as rather suggestive.

[Forikroder]

harm and inflict critical wounds would quite possibly kill belkar. if it didn't he wouldnt have much HP left. I am betting on a destruction though, to prevent him from being raised. the fact that belkar just ran into someone who almost certainly has destruction, a spell that wrecks havok with resurrection attempts, alone, right around his prophecy date strikes me as rather suggestive.

Belkar is lost in a labyrinth, even if he died to the hellhound he almost certainly wouldnt get a rez

[Snails]

Wait... Belkar made a Listen check???

Wait... did Malack made his Listen check???

Isn't "Listen" a wisdom-based ability, so that Malack has more of it than Belkar?

Belkar gained some degree of competence due to the efforts of Mr. Scruffy -- observe the concerned pawing. It could be Alertness gained from an Animal Companion. Or Mr. Scruffy could easily have a Listen as high as +10, and simply alerted Belkar.

[NotScaryBats]

Do you guys really think its a forgone conclusion that they will fight to the death? I'm not so sure. In fact, I think there will be laughing and cookies and cakes by the end of 869!

I'm an optimist!

[Snails]

2 levels is probably a good estimate, and that doesnt put him as significantly more powerful Belkar is in the best possible situation to take down Malack, hes in melee range will probably get first initiative, can hide in the labyrinth and find Malack much more easily then Malack can find him

think of how Belkar solo'd Miko

Good points.

I strongly suspect (but do not know) that Belkar has immense Favored Enemy bonuses against humans -- such an advantage is unlikely to exist here.

That said, if it came down to martial skill, I would bet on Belkar. But Malack can just suck up damage for 2-3 rounds without breaking a sweat. He gets three or four shots with Hold Person.

As already pointed, the Harm + Quickened Inflict trick is likely to work if things look bad for the lizard. I would bet a large amount of money Malack has that exact combo on hand with the intention of eventually using it on Nale. Obviously he would use it to save his own skin, if it were necessary.

[theinsulabot]

Belkar is lost in a labyrinth, even if he died to the hellhound he almost certainly wouldnt get a rez


belkar's body being lost is pretty unlikely, remember, the maze is pretty crappy without the illusions. maybe its possible if the gate blew before they had a chance to find him, but a destruction (or disintegrate if malak knows it) slams the door shut

[Kish]

this is bad news for Tarquin he was relying on Malack to cure the kobold

i wonder if the kobold is out of commision (and likely to remina that way) because Belkar is about to get killed so his evil opposite is unnecesary...
Do you really think it hasn't already been 1d10 minutes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holyWord.htm)?

[Tragak]

Good points.

I strongly suspect (but do not know) that Belkar has immense Favored Enemy bonuses against humans -- such an advantage is unlikely to exist here.

Actually, the popular theory for his most-invested favored enemy seems to be reptilians.

For the kobolds.

[jidasfire]

Well, of all the "Belkar is doomed!" moments in the comic, this is probably the first one I consider credible. Malack has a pretty solid level advantage, not to mention better magic items and a likely nasty spell repertoire. In any prolonged and straightforward battle, Belkar is toast. That said, Belkar is sneaky when he has to be, and Malack is the least murderous of the Linear Guild, so I don't consider it a foregone conclusion by a long shot. Indeed, even if it comes to a fight, Malack may simply knock him out and take him hostage. It's too early to say for sure, but even I must admit it doesn't look good.

[Forikroder]

Good points.

I strongly suspect (but do not know) that Belkar has immense Favored Enemy bonuses against humans -- such an advantage is unlikely to exist here.

That said, if it came down to martial skill, I would bet on Belkar. But Malack can just suck up damage for 2-3 rounds without breaking a sweat. He gets three or four shots with Hold Person.

As already pointed, the Harm + Quickened Inflict trick is likely to work if things look bad for the lizard. I would bet a large amount of money Malack has that exact combo on hand with the intention of eventually using it on Nale. Obviously he would use it to save his own skin, if it were necessary.

the biggest problem in the comic id say is "how is Roy supposed to beat Xykon" we might get a hint of how thatll happen if Belkar fights Malack


belkar's body being lost is pretty unlikely, remember, the maze is pretty crappy without the illusions. maybe its possible if the gate blew before they had a chance to find him, but a destruction (or disintegrate if malak knows it) slams the door shut

ya its so crappy a high level ranger is completely unable to find his way around...

its still a very effective labyrinth, the OoTS was just able to mainly bypass it


Do you really think it hasn't already been 1d10 minutes?

if Tarquin thought the effects would wear off so quickly he wouldnt have wasted his oitment so id say it wont follow the rules so closely

[Snails]

Actually, the popular theory for his most-invested favored enemy seems to be reptilians.

For the kobolds.

Ah. I like that hypothesis.

[Kish]

the biggest problem in the comic id say is "how is Roy supposed to beat Xykon" we might get a hint of how thatll happen if Belkar fights Malack

ya its so crappy a high level ranger is completely unable to find his way around...

You mean a proverbially bad tracker, who has the Track feat as a class feature, 0 ranks in Survival, a Wisdom penalty, and can find a bandit camp as long as he's looking for a strip club?


if Tarquin thought the effects would wear off so quickly he wouldnt have wasted his oitment so id say it wont follow the rules so closely
Four one-sentence paragraphs. Four insupportable assertions.

[The Pilgrim]

So, how many nanosecodns will Belkar last against Malack? Specially with his abysmal wisdom score.

[Forikroder]

You mean a proverbially bad tracker, who has the Track feat as a class feature, 0 ranks in Survival, a Wisdom penalty, and can find a bandit camp as long as he's looking for a strip club?

hes a good tracker as long as he wants to be and he definently wants to find his way back


Four one-sentence paragraphs. Four insupportable assertions.

if the effects would wear off max 10 minutes after the holy word, why would tarquin bother even healing them? there not going to catch up to the OoTS in less then 10 minutes with the lead the OoTS gained, especially since Tarquin would wait for Malack before continuing its jsut a waste of resources to fix something that wouldnt be an issue

[theinsulabot]

hes a good tracker as long as he wants to be and he definently wants to find his way back


no, no he isn't. there is a reason even he acknowledged miko was a better tracker then him.

[Forikroder]

no, no he isn't. there is a reason even he acknowledged miko was a better tracker then him.

he tracked the Chimera well until he got bored and forgot about it

point is between him and Mr.Scruffy theyll be able to run circles around Malack and display good hit and run tactics

[Kish]

hes a good tracker as long as he wants to be
You go right on slamming your head against that brick wall, Forikroder.


if the effects would wear off max 10 minutes after the holy word, why would tarquin bother even healing them?

The one character he used the Keoghtum's Ointment solely or primarily to heal from the effects of the Holy Word, is Zz'dtri. For Nale, it was the whole "nearly dead from being stabbed by an incompetent tracker" thing. You'd want to tell the wizard who just teleported you to safety, "I consider saving a single dab of Keoghtum's Ointment worth more than you getting your hearing back right away, so suck it up and wait for the spell to wear off"? I regret to inform you that I think Tarquin's leadership strategy is better than yours.

[runeghost]

Haven't seen anyone else toss this out yet so I will: we now have a high level cleric we know can raise undead (and who has been speculated to be a vampire) about to go toe to toe with the Belkster very close to his "last breath" date. I think the odds for Undead Belkar just went waaay up.

[Sunken Valley]

When you go into the archive page, 867 is still listed both at the top and side bar as most recent. Someone might want to change that.

[Forikroder]

You go right on slamming your head against that brick wall, Forikroder.

The one character he used the Keoghtum's Ointment solely or primarily to heal from the effects of the Holy Word, is Zz'dtri. For Nale, it was the whole "nearly dead from being stabbing by an incompetent tracker" thing. You'd want to tell the wizard who just teleported you to safety, "I consider saving a single dab of Keoghtum's Ointment worth more than you getting your hearing back right away"? I regret to inform you that I think Tarquin's leadership strategy is better than yours.

Tarquin is fluent in drow sign language so his alck of hearing wouldnt change anything and i doubt Tarquin gave him some oitment just to be a nice guy

and i was more reffering to the Kobold, Tarquin specifically said that the oitment wouldnt heal everything on him so theyd ahve to wait for Malack to come heal him even though its possible the effects would wear off (or be nearly worn off) by the time they even met Malack

im not saying the effects definently wont wear off but id say theres a good chance they wont so easily


When you go into the archive page, 867 is still listed both at the top and side bar as most recent. Someone might want to change that.

i think tis jsut you, shows up properly for me

[Clistenes]

Belkar isn't going to try to fight Malak. He's going to make him snap and lash against Nale. Just think the incredibly hurtful things he will tell him about his alliance with the murderer of his children.

[Subzero008]

This battle is going to be like trying to hit an annoying fly. Basically, it takes ONE hold person, then Belkar's finished. However, it will take quite an effort to actually hit Belkar with any of Malack's lethal repertoire.

[Agnostik]

Belkar isn't going to try to fight Malak. He's going to make him snap and lash against Nale. Just think the incredibly hurtful things he will tell him about his alliance with the murderer of his children.I find that highly unlikely. Character development notwithstanding, Belkar is really not the type to manipulate anyone into doing anything. He's simply not smart enough for that. The only two ways he can make other people do what he wants are:

a) threats of physical violence;
b) being so painfully dumb that the other party backs down and lets him have his way just to preserve their own sanity.

On the other hand, it's easy to imagine Belkar unwittingly saying something that will convince Malack to back down. As for knowingly "pushing Malack's buttons", fat chance of that...

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Forikroder]

I find that highly unlikely. Character development notwithstanding, Belkar is really not the type to manipulate anyone into doing anything. He's simply not smart enough for that. The only two ways he can make other people do what he wants are:

a) threats of physical violence;
b) being so painfully dumb that the other party backs down and lets him have his way just to preserve their own sanity.

On the other hand, it's easy to imagine Belkar unwittingly saying something that will convince Malack to back down.

most likely scenario is they fight for a while and then something happens taht convinces one of them to leave

its kinda odd that Malack is wandering around like this though he should have been able to find his way back to the main room pretty easily it was never mentioned that there was any brainching corridors and i find it unlikely he fell for one of those traps

[Clistenes]

I find that highly unlikely. Character development notwithstanding, Belkar is really not the type to manipulate anyone into doing anything. He's simply not smart enough for that. The only two ways he can make other people do what he wants are:

a) threats of physical violence;
b) being so painfully dumb that the other party backs down and lets him have his way just to preserve their own sanity.

On the other hand, it's easy to imagine Belkar unwittingly saying something that will convince Malack to back down. As for knowingly "pushing Malack's buttons", fat chance of that...

Oh, he won't do it because it's the intelligent thing to do, it will do it for the lulz.

EDIT: Hey! I'm an orc now! Sweet!.

[orrion]

harm and inflict critical wounds would quite possibly kill belkar. if it didn't he wouldnt have much HP left. I am betting on a destruction though, to prevent him from being raised. the fact that belkar just ran into someone who almost certainly has destruction, a spell that wrecks havok with resurrection attempts, alone, right around his prophecy date strikes me as rather suggestive.

Er, if Malack had Destruction, why wouldn't he have used that on Nale? Does he suddenly care more about Nale's ability to be raised?

[Forikroder]

Er, if Malack had Destruction, why wouldn't he have used that on Nale? Does he suddenly care more about Nale's ability to be raised?

this was discussed to death a while ago harm+quickened inflict wounds is the safer combo then a save or die

[Solara]

I've only recently started reading the comic again after a looong hiatus...I wandered off somewhere around the time Roy and Belkar got arrested, but decided to pick up from V's deal with the fiends to refresh my memory on everything.

I had just caught up and was bemoaning the fact there were no more new comics to read, when lo and behold, this one pops up!

I have to say, from being the character who's entire 'thing' was being an amusingly twisted but one-note little psychopath who never changed even when everyone around him was having major character arcs, Belkar has had some subtle but amazing character development lately. It's almost adorable how much he seems to genuinely want to try and earn the rest of the team's (and especially Roy's) approval now, but it's sad too because I have a feeling it's far too late, the rest of them will never realize he's actually changed and by how much.

I'm really hoping the encounter with Malack here doesn't end horribly for either one of them...if Belkar can prove he can encounter and even get along with another sentient being without resorting to murder it will just...rip holes in the fabric of reality. (More of them, I mean.)

[Solara]

Er, so what were they trying to do outside when they were dropping Vitriolic Spheres, Flame Strikes and other such goodness on them?

He wasn't trying to kill anyone with those though, and killing anyone now would still be against the plan. The whole idea is to let the good guys find the Gate and then swoop in and take it from them, remember?

[Anarion]

So, we've got Malack about to meet Belkar (assuming the Giant doesn't mock our pathetic anticipation with a cutaway panel:smalltongue:), Roy and Co. by a majorly important door, V off who knows where having shortcut through a wall, and Tarqin/Nale still outside, maybe?

It seems this bit of the arc is going to become one of those multi-branch paths that end up all converging together again at the critical moment.

[theNater]

Er, so what were they trying to do outside when they were dropping Vitriolic Spheres, Flame Strikes and other such goodness on them?
Prodding them, so they wouldn't "just stand around talking until they fill up like eight pages with speech balloons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html)".

As for Malack not having anything against Belkar, I'm sure he doesn't have anything against Durkon either but he still demanded that he be the one who gets to kill him.
Malack said he gets to be the one who handles Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html). We know it's important to watch precise wording for Tarquin, it's plausible that the same is true for Malack.

[orrion]

this was discussed to death a while ago harm+quickened inflict wounds is the safer combo then a save or die

It also caps Malack at having access to 6th level spells. Destruction is 7th.

[Forikroder]

It also caps Malack at having access to 6th level spells. Destruction is 7th.

no it doesnt because theres good reasons for malack to not use destruction

especially since he seems to want to use Nales skull at least as interior decoration


I've only recently started reading the comic again after a looong hiatus...I wandered off somewhere around the time Roy and Belkar got arrested, but decided to pick up from V's deal with the fiends to refresh my memory on everything.

I had just caught up and was bemoaning the fact there were no more new comics to read, when lo and behold, this one pops up!

I have to say, from being the character who's entire 'thing' was being an amusingly twisted but one-note little psychopath who never changed even when everyone around him was having major character arcs, Belkar has had some subtle but amazing character development lately. It's almost adorable how much he seems to genuinely want to try and earn the rest of the team's (and especially Roy's) approval now, but it's sad too because I have a feeling it's far too late, the rest of them will never realize he's actually changed and by how much.

I'm really hoping the encounter with Malack here doesn't end horribly for either one of them...if Belkar can prove he can encounter and even get along with another sentient being without resorting to murder it will just...rip holes in the fabric of reality. (More of them, I mean.

ya.... no

the only change in belkar is he started loving Mr. Scruffy got a TAD bit more good and tried to pretend to be a good party member

[Caex]

Hm, Belkar can't pick up their scent over the stench of those corpses. Is it possible that Malack has some of those divine gifts left over?

[Forikroder]

Hm, Belkar can't pick up their scent over the stench of those corpses. Is it possible that Malack has some of those divine gifts left over?
those all got sent into Roy as fodder Belkar could smell the corpses from the entrance to the windy cavern so the smell would have completely filled there tomb by now

[rewinn]

This could go many ways, but considering that Malack is intrinsically wiser than Belkar (an admittedly low bar) I predict that Malack will try to con Belkar into accompanying him.
After all, they are both alone and lost in a dungeon. They can always kill each other later. Belkar doesn't know it was Malack who flame-striked the party, but Belkar *does* know Malack hates Elan and Elan is somewhere in the pyramid.
An alliance is logical, given Belkar's lack of knowledge.

[Forikroder]

This could go many ways, but considering that Malack is intrinsically wiser than Belkar (an admittedly low bar) I predict that Malack will try to con Belkar into accompanying him.
After all, they are both alone and lost in a dungeon. They can always kill each other later. Belkar doesn't know it was Malack who flame-striked the party, but Belkar *does* know Malack hates Elan and Elan is somewhere in the pyramid.
An alliance is logical, given Belkar's lack of knowledge.

malack hats nale not elan an alliance is not logical since both of them know that the other person if part of the team that there trying to kill

if it was roy.... there might be an alliance, if it was durkon there could be an alliance if it was elan thered definently be an alliance

but its BELKAR hell either try to kill Malack and leave no way he teams up with Malack

[SlyJohnny]

I love that not many of us are assuming Belkar will win this.

As much as I would love to see another teamup of unlikely comrades in the new feel-good comedy of the year, my guess is that Belkar will attack, and Malack will Dominate him :(

Later, he'll wind up attacking the Order and getting killed, possibly V in the process :/

[Auron]

I love the reference in the title: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0140.html. :smallsmile:

[Tragak]

That can't POSSIBLY have been on purpose.

I love it :smallsmile: Just don't tell Mr. Scruffy Belkar used to be a dog person :smallwink:

[DaggerPen]

Yeah, I guess we didn't see this one coming. So the real question is, "does Malack have any non-lethal save-or-dies prepared?"

Isn't that an oxymoron? :P

(But I know what you meant.)

At any rate- oh man. That's just a little bit ominous. I really like Malack, and I've grown surprisingly fond of Belkar. I hope they won't fight, even though the omens are not good.

[Tannhaeuser]

Actually, what interests me is what is going to happen to Mr. Scruffy. Will he attack Malack, and if so, would Malack condescend to catticide? And if Belkar does purchase an agricultural estate, will the Scruffster try to avenge him, attempt to inform the rest of the Order, wander off with no plot-relevant intention, or remain pining by the body?

What does fate have in store for Mr. Scruffy?

[B. Dandelion]

So, we've got Malack about to meet Belkar (assuming the Giant doesn't mock our pathetic anticipation with a cutaway panel:smalltongue:), Roy and Co. by a majorly important door, V off who knows where having shortcut through a wall, and Tarqin/Nale still outside, maybe?

It seems this bit of the arc is going to become one of those multi-branch paths that end up all converging together again at the critical moment.

That's what I've been guessing for a while... that the teams would keep getting fractured and wind up encountering each other in odd combinations, until we hit the big showdown.

I didn't guess at Belkar/Malack though...

What I really really hope is that Team Evil gets in on the divide-and-wander routine. If they show up before the other teams are reunited, it seems like they'd almost have to get split up, or else the story would end pretty quickly as the fully-assembled TE just curbstomps the individual fractured party remnants. (Although really Xykon could probably do that by himself to anyone he came across, but Redcloak and tMitD might not.)

[Silverraptor]

You're right. No way Belkar saw this one coming.:smalltongue:

[Finagle]

Has anyone noticed that BOTH parties are split at the moment? They're both missing two members. I bet Belkar + lizgreaper parley, find V, and then discover the Gate themselves while both 'official' parties blunder around the dungeon.

[dtilque]

Also... would Malack and Belkar even recognize each other? They haven't had much face-to-face time at all.

None at all, as far as I can remember. The only time they've been in the same place at the same time was when the Order was leaving the palace. There's two panels in OotS0818 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0818.html) where they're both on scene, but don't talk to each other at all.

[Caex]

those all got sent into Roy as fodder Belkar could smell the corpses from the entrance to the windy cavern so the smell would have completely filled there tomb by now

Yeah, that seemed like the likeliest option, but the alternative was an interesting option to raise. Looking back at the evidence, Roy killed five in one awesome sweep (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html), which would be consistent with Malack animating six (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0856.html) and losing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0857.html) one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0858.html) in a pit trap. Still, we saw that there were at least twenty (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0841.html) mummies to work with, so it is possible that there were some in reserve or which were animated later. That being said, the six we saw being destroyed or dropped into a pit were consistent with the ones we saw animated, and Malack has been wandering around in a maze and thus it's unlikely he got the chance to go back and animate more.

Long story short, you're probably right.

[Solara]

ya.... no

the only change in belkar is he started loving Mr. Scruffy got a TAD bit more good and tried to pretend to be a good party member

Why is he still bothering to pretend when there's no one else around?

Also, I appreciate that you probably worship Thor or something but seriously man, you might want to lay off posting until you sober up.

[Snails]

no it doesnt because theres good reasons for malack to not use destruction

especially since he seems to want to use Nales skull at least as interior decoration


Agreed.

It is fairly likely that Malack has Destruction prepared as the domain spell from Death, but turning Nale to dust makes animating him for the lulz more arduous.

I would be rather surprised if Malack were merely 12th level or less. Besides reasons already stated (above), the fear Malack seems to inspire in Nale and Sabine suggest someone of greater spellcasting heft.

[Jay R]

Before everybody writes Belkar's obituary here, it's worth remembering that Vaarsuvius is around someplace near.

[Forikroder]

Why is he still bothering to pretend when there's no one else around?

Also, I appreciate that you probably worship Thor or something but seriously man, you might want to lay off posting until you sober up.

the most you could take out of this strip is hes annoyed that his attempts arent working, he still killed a guard in cold blood, stole the bread from fellow prisoners, completely ignored Roys orders to act inconspicous so tehy dont wind up in the arena, showed obvious distaste at Roys orders to break out and enage the linear guild e.t.c

(oh and had Mr. Scruffy do diarea in the mouth of a living Kobold who was being mentally dominated)

[snikrept]

Noooooooo stay safe Malack!

Belkar has way more plot armor than you !

[Forikroder]

Noooooooo stay safe Malack!

Belkar has way more plot armor than you !

acutally we know Belkar is going to die, but Malack still has his kids to avenge and durkon to meet

[The Shadow]

Did... Did Belkar just make a Listen check?!

Also, I agree with Solara. While nobody in their right mind would argue that Belkar is anything but evil, he has certainly grown. It is kind of endearing that he actually cares what the group thinks, even when nobody's looking. Notice that not only does he want to impress Roy, but in panel 7 he doesn't want the rest of the group to 'totally freak'. (I grant that panel 8 blunts the impact of that a fair bit, but still. :))

[Forikroder]

Did... Did Belkar just make a Listen check?!

Also, I agree with Solara. While nobody in their right mind would argue that Belkar is anything but evil, he has certainly grown. It is kind of endearing that he actually cares what the group thinks, even when nobody's looking. Notice that not only does he want to impress Roy, but in panel 7 he doesn't want the rest of the group to 'totally freak'. (I grant that panel 8 blunts the impact of that a fair bit, but still. :))

i took panel 8 more as if hes gotten completely bored of the groups overeactions (in his mind at least) to his deeds

and i think its less anting to impress roy then wanting to inflate his ego, hes probably feeling underapreaciated since he hasnt actualyl dont anything helpful since....

i guess the ant slave trader guys...

and before then it would have been whatever assistance he offered the resistance

[Chaotic Queen]

Okay, I know Tarterus is the Greek version of Hell, and Pandemonium is the Final Fantasy version of Hell, but what's Abyssal?

[Caex]

Okay, I know Tarterus is the Greek version of Hell, and Pandemonium is the Final Fantasy version of Hell, but what's Abyssal?

Pandemonium is also the evil-leaning chaotic plane of the outer planes in the standard D&D cosmology, with the Abyss being the full chaotic evil plane. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Outer_Planes_(3.5e_Environment))

[Throknor]

Haven't seen anyone else toss this out yet so I will: we now have a high level cleric we know can raise undead (and who has been speculated to be a vampire) about to go toe to toe with the Belkster very close to his "last breath" date. I think the odds for Undead Belkar just went waaay up.

I was thinking the same thing, though maybe not 'way' up.

[Gift Jeraff]

Okay, I know Tarterus is the Greek version of Hell, and Pandemonium is the Final Fantasy version of Hell, but what's Abyssal?

He's referencing D&D cosmology.
The Nine Hells = Lawful Evil afterlife
Tarterus = Neutral Evil with Chaotic tendencies
Pandemonium = Chaotic Neutral with Evil tendencies
The Abyss = Chaotic Evil

[Kinneus]

So is Belkar gonna die already, or what?

[brionl]

Before everybody writes Belkar's obituary here, it's worth remembering that Vaarsuvius is around someplace near.

Meaning what? That Vaarsuvius is going to cheer Malack on? You don't really think he'd intervene to save Belkar, do you?

[Cerlis]

Meaning what? That Vaarsuvius is going to cheer Malack on? You don't really think he'd intervene to save Belkar, do you?


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html

Yea....Vaarsuvius totally isnt the most likely member of the party to come to Belkar's aid.

[natrl20]

daaaamn brionl you just got smoked.

[VanIsleKnight]

Belkster NOOOOOO :( not now, not yet! I don't want you to dieeeee. ;_;

[137beth]

Wait, who shot the arrows? Was it a trap? Probably, Malak can't use a bow, and the arrows were orange, so it wasn't Haley.

[Nimrod's Son]

Is that really an Yngwie Malmsteen reference in the title ?
Considering all Rich's music references so far have been to hugely popular classic rock like the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Queen and Led Zeppelin, I think the chances of him deliberately referencing an obscure '80s hair-metaller in the death-throes of his career are slim to none. Particularly since Belkar's first mention of "unleash the fury" in regards to riding dogs was strip 140, which came out six months before the Malmsteen album.

If it's a reference to anything in pop culture, it'd be the 2000 movie Road Trip, which catapulted the phrase into the public consciousness to a certain degree, but even then I'd be inclined to think of it more as a coincidence than a deliberate nod.

[Math_Mage]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html

Yea....Vaarsuvius totally isnt the most likely member of the party to come to Belkar's aid.

He isn't. V is probably the least likely of the five to aid Belkar. The best that can be said of their relationship is that their animosity has largely been restricted to 'trivial' pranks. Each of the other four has, if not a positive experience with Belkar, at least some positive experiences--or, with Elan and Durkon, simply a Good-natured desire to help someone, even Belkar. The scene you linked is meant to illustrate how much V detests Miko.


Wait, who shot the arrows? Was it a trap? Probably, Malak can't use a bow, and the arrows were orange, so it wasn't Haley.

Mr. Scruffy steps on an arrow trap in panel 2.

[Killer Angel]

Ouch.
Belkar did a nice job with the hellhound; excellent reflexes and improvisation.
But now, things are decisely different...

[Gamgee]

Yes! Comic is so good, I've missed it. It's so meaty and tasty in the amount of story it brings. Those gag a day webcomics simply can't compare. As the mindflayers sees food this is my turkey dinner.

Edit
Awesome picture with the big G. So lucky to have met him. Have some cool shades. :smallcool:

[Chantelune]

Frankly, I see no difference except one's more medic-oriented.

d4 vs d8 hp for starters ? Cleric are more likely to survive on their own than wizard, especially when not prepared to fight. If Malack were a wizard, he would have little to no chance to survive long enough to cast a protective spell if took by surprise by Belkar. Being a medic, he'll be able to take on the first round and depending on his total hp, might be able to fully respond the next round while a wizard would need to set up his defenses prior to fight back.

So no, it's not just a medic oriented wizard. :smalltongue:

[SinsI]

Wait... Belkar made a Listen check???
Isn't "Listen" a wisdom-based ability, so that Malack has more of it than Belkar?

I'd argue that it is an example of Belkar failing it - his ears detected the noise, but his low Wisdom made him misinterpret the source.

[Ave]

With this title, i see no peaceful outcome.
I wonder who will be more furied, Belkar or Scruffy.

[Boogastreehouse]

you know, a while back roy said belkar was going to be the responsibility of someone in long black robes and a large scythe.


missed it by thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat much.


Brilliant!

The Lizgreaper approaches...

Y'know, that really is the sort of clever foreshadowing of which Rich is clearly capable. Two grim reaper comments... huh...

Also, Malack has stated quite clearly that he is normally against creating undead. Really been making kind of a point of it, actually. Even if the references mentioned above are just coincidences rather than intentional foreshadowing, Malack's unwillingness to raise a character from the dead was probably established for all the people here that insist beyond all logic that Belkar is going to become some kind of undead-plant-golem-creature that doesn't eat cake.

[Mike Havran]

Heh. I never saw this coming. Excellent twist, Giant!

I have no idea how this should go. My guess will be that Belkar attacks on sight, but what then? Malack dying now would feel strange, Belkar dying would feel strange as well, and that they can make some sort of compromise is even less imaginable.

If Belkar could somehow willingly cooperate with Malack, I'll admit he has grown.

[warmachine]

I love that Belkar's bouncing changed direction by 90 degrees to follow the ramp rather than straight on and over the edge. Once again, Physics is locked in a padded room screaming for the death of catgirls.

[ManuelSacha]

Holy... word!

That was a twist I didn't expect.
I fear for Belkar, now.

[Roland Itiative]

I'd argue that it is an example of Belkar failing it - his ears detected the noise, but his low Wisdom made him misinterpret the source.
He interpreted the source well enough. He even deduced the sound came from a robed person, not just any person. There would be just no way to tell from sound alone the difference between Malack and V walking (unless Malack really doesn't have feet, in which case he could be able to notice the lack of proper footsteps).

Anyway, I don't think there will be a long combat here. Belkar will likely go all Belkar the moment he notices who he's dealing with, but Malack will probably just immobilise him and find out a way to use his new prisoner for his own advantage (which might involve screwing over Nale, despite Tarquin's orders to not do anything).

[elros]

I'm just amazed Belkar passed a listen test!

I also love how we have a meeting of the two characters with the most interesting alignments. Malak is evil but noble, and Belkar is evil but "trying to be more reasonable." Is it possible that these two team up instead of fight? That would be an epic plot twist!

[Adeptus]

Noooooooooooooooooo! Belkar! :eek:

[Burner28]

Oh no! Belkar is done for!:smalleek:

[3d6]

On the one hand, epicly experienced wizard vs a mere ranger.

On the other hand: Melee range.

I don't believe Malack stands a chance.

After all, Belkar is not alone, and his feline sidekick has already proven his worth against spellcasters. The only question remaining is: "How much of Malack will Mr. Scruffy leave for Belkar to finish?"

[Chantelune]

I also love how we have a meeting of the two characters with the most interesting alignments. Malak is evil but noble, and Belkar is evil but "trying to be more reasonable." Is it possible that these two team up instead of fight? That would be an epic plot twist!

We don't know for sure that Malak is evil. During his conversation with Durkon, he implied that he might be neutral instead of evil, though he might have lied. And he was out of range of the holy word, though that wouldn't even prove him to be evil as it target all non-good character.

So he might very well be neutral instead of downright evil :p

[Jay R]

I'm just amazed Belkar passed a listen test!

"Only when it's funny."
- R. Rabbit

Meaning what? That Vaarsuvius is going to cheer Malack on? You don't really think he'd intervene to save Belkar, do you?

Right now, while berating himself or herself for giving in to evil temptations?

Yes, actually.

Besides, V has always unambiguously fought for the party in the presence of a mutual enemy.

The wizard has never tried to kill Belkar, as proven by the fact that Belkar is alive. The effects of V's attacks on Belkar while uncomfortable, have been well within the predicted parameters for the experiment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html).

[Incom]

Am I the only one that thinks these two might just be able to get along? I mean, Malack is the cleric of a god of death, and Belkar is rather fond of killing people...


If these were only stairs....

i warned you about wheelchair stairs bro!
I told you dog!

Bahahahahaha. Just started reading Homestuck like a week ago.

[Torrasque]

Yet another "Belkar is in this comic, this must be when he dies" ramblings :P

Why would this be the time? I see no reason for it, using what we have already seen in the comic.

If we examine the situation with in comic knowledge, then we have two characters about to meet, who has no real reason to kill each other.

Belkar has no reason to want to kill malak, apart from his psychotic tendencies, obviously (malak is a valid target for him to kill within the bounds of his faked character growth), but he has no specific hate against him, as he have had with so many others he has lashed out irrationally at. And this would indeed be lashing out irrationally.
On the other hand he has many reasons to not want to attack Malak. First he has no weapons and will consider himself outgunned untill he can rectify that. We have seen many times in comic that Belkar will not attack random people, when the risk of getting killed is larger. This is afterall how he joined the Order in the first place. We have also seen him give himself up to the authorities, implying that it has happened many times before.
So from Belkars point of view, i see it most likely that he will try to avoid confrontation, within reasonable provocation.

Malak has no motivation to kill Belkar either. What we have seen of his personal motivations, he has only shown himself as a calm nonviolent creature (barring extreme provocation from Nale). He has even shown himself as a gentle creature in his interactions with Durkon. Please not that i do not claim he necessarily IS a gentle creature, but we have not seen him act to the contrary yet.
His professional motivation is more of importance though, as he has shown to suppress his personal motivation for this (not killing Nale). Here he wants to rule the continent along with Tarquin, BUT it has in no way been shown how they plan to accomplish that with regards to the gate. In fact what we have seen has pointed to them wanting to keep the Order alive and finding the gate.
So i see no reason why he would want to kill Belkar either, barring provocation.

If we look at the subject from an storyteller perspective, then i don't see a reason for this to be the death time either. Malak is right now reduced to what is essentially a wandering monster for Belkar. It is an opponent he has had no interactions with, and it would give nothing to the story, to simply have Belkar die alone and unnoticed deep in a maze, by the hands of an enemy that probably doesn't even know his name. There might then be later revelations story wise that makes it significant, but from what we have of knowledge right now, this would make for a pretty lame protagonist death.

In short, i see not a single reason why this should be Belkars time of death. In a story arc as complex as this one, the "next few weeks" might be hundreds of strips, so there is a LONG while before time is definately up.

[Zubrowka74]

Wait, who shot the arrows? Was it a trap? Probably, Malak can't use a bow, and the arrows were orange, so it wasn't Haley.

It is a trap. It's trigered by Mr Scruffy, you can clearly see it when he's running down the path.


Considering all Rich's music references so far have been to hugely popular classic rock like the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Queen and Led Zeppelin, I think the chances of him deliberately referencing an obscure '80s hair-metaller in the death-throes of his career are slim to none. Particularly since Belkar's first mention of "unleash the fury" in regards to riding dogs was strip 140, which came out six months before the Malmsteen album.

Yeah, but one reference doesn't exclude another. Multi-level cultural (self)references galore! I just really mentioned it because just before checking the site and seeing the comic I was reading about the incident that lead to the album's title. And face it, decadent hair metal shredders from the 80s are funny as is.

[Peelee]

he wants durkon dead by his hand as a form of respect

Or he wants to ensure Durkon doesn't die at all, by having explicit instructions to everyone else to leave him alone. Remember, Malack said, "We agreed Brother Thundershield was not to be harmed," NOT "We agreed Brother Thundershield would die by my hand alone."

[King of Nowhere]

If malak really has a low CON score as he said, then belkar may stand a good chance of killing him before he can react. malak also has no armor.

My money however is on a sort of team up. both of them don't have much in common with the rest of their team, and both of them are more focused with getting out of there than with fighting each other.

[brionl]

Right now, while berating himself or herself for giving in to evil temptations?

Yes, actually.

Besides, V has always unambiguously fought for the party in the presence of a mutual enemy.

The wizard has never tried to kill Belkar, as proven by the fact that Belkar is alive. The effects of V's attacks on Belkar while uncomfortable, have been well within the predicted parameters for the experiment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html).

OK, the angst thing might be a point.
But Vaarsuvius shouldn't have any reason to see Malack as a mutual enemy. He knows Malack, and could seem him as a victim of Belkar's unprovoked attack. Which is the most likely scenario to lead to a fight between them. This would at least lead Vaarsuvius to hesitate before jumping in.

[Forikroder]

I love that Belkar's bouncing changed direction by 90 degrees to follow the ramp rather than straight on and over the edge. Once again, Physics is locked in a padded room screaming for the death of catgirls.

if you look at the panel where hes wondering what ramp he came from youll notice there all tunels, so the ramp he bounced down probably only looked like it was over a bottomless pit with no walls because it would be too awkward to show the walls and how he bounced down


OK, the angst thing might be a point.
But Vaarsuvius shouldn't have any reason to see Malack as a mutual enemy. He knows Malack, and could seem him as a victim of Belkar's unprovoked attack. Which is the most likely scenario to lead to a fight between them. This would at least lead Vaarsuvius to hesitate before jumping in.

why do people seem to think the Order is completely unable of understanding who there enemy is?

V knows what Malack looks like and reconizes Malack as Tarquins partner, V knows Tarquin is evil and will asume Malack is evil by association

if V sees Malack he will realise that Malack is here for the Gate

same with the Belkster hes not so stupid that he cant figure out Malack isnt here because he got lost on a walk


Or he wants to ensure Durkon doesn't die at all, by having explicit instructions to everyone else to leave him alone. Remember, Malack said, "We agreed Brother Thundershield was not to be harmed," NOT "We agreed Brother Thundershield would die by my hand alone."

he said that because option 2 is alot more wordy then option one

he made it clear in the Palace that he had no qualms killing Durkon is actually a bit angry at Durkons deception

remember from his point of view Durkon purposely befriended him to steal information from him and everything he did was a lie


Yet another "Belkar is in this comic, this must be when he dies" ramblings :P

Why would this be the time? I see no reason for it, using what we have already seen in the comic.

If we examine the situation with in comic knowledge, then we have two characters about to meet, who has no real reason to kill each other.

Belkar has no reason to want to kill malak, apart from his psychotic tendencies, obviously (malak is a valid target for him to kill within the bounds of his faked character growth), but he has no specific hate against him, as he have had with so many others he has lashed out irrationally at. And this would indeed be lashing out irrationally.
On the other hand he has many reasons to not want to attack Malak. First he has no weapons and will consider himself outgunned untill he can rectify that. We have seen many times in comic that Belkar will not attack random people, when the risk of getting killed is larger. This is afterall how he joined the Order in the first place. We have also seen him give himself up to the authorities, implying that it has happened many times before.
So from Belkars point of view, i see it most likely that he will try to avoid confrontation, within reasonable provocation.

Malak has no motivation to kill Belkar either. What we have seen of his personal motivations, he has only shown himself as a calm nonviolent creature (barring extreme provocation from Nale). He has even shown himself as a gentle creature in his interactions with Durkon. Please not that i do not claim he necessarily IS a gentle creature, but we have not seen him act to the contrary yet.
His professional motivation is more of importance though, as he has shown to suppress his personal motivation for this (not killing Nale). Here he wants to rule the continent along with Tarquin, BUT it has in no way been shown how they plan to accomplish that with regards to the gate. In fact what we have seen has pointed to them wanting to keep the Order alive and finding the gate.
So i see no reason why he would want to kill Belkar either, barring provocation.

If we look at the subject from an storyteller perspective, then i don't see a reason for this to be the death time either. Malak is right now reduced to what is essentially a wandering monster for Belkar. It is an opponent he has had no interactions with, and it would give nothing to the story, to simply have Belkar die alone and unnoticed deep in a maze, by the hands of an enemy that probably doesn't even know his name. There might then be later revelations story wise that makes it significant, but from what we have of knowledge right now, this would make for a pretty lame protagonist death.

In short, i see not a single reason why this should be Belkars time of death. In a story arc as complex as this one, the "next few weeks" might be hundreds of strips, so there is a LONG while before time is definately up.


Belakr was his weapons you can see him clearly holding them while hes rolling down

and i can give you one big reason for both of them to fight

for Belkar: Malack is trying to take the Gate hes trying to defend, hes shown that hes trying to make the Party start thinking of him as a useful member and even better then finding V would be capturing one of there enemies

for Malack: he knows the Order is trying to protect the gate and any opportunity to reduce there fighting strength would be best

its possible Malack doesnt want a fight, but if he lets Belkar go then almost certainly he plans to double cross Tarquin at some point

[SteveDJ]

Or he wants to ensure Durkon doesn't die at all, by having explicit instructions to everyone else to leave him alone. Remember, Malack said, "We agreed Brother Thundershield was not to be harmed," NOT "We agreed Brother Thundershield would die by my hand alone."

Indeed, just a couple frames before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html), Malack didn't want anything to do with being part of a new Linear Guild.

I think an alliance is quite possible.

[Cynric]

After the constant theories about how and when Belkar dies, I reeealllly hope that it is something so left-field that it both confuses and infuriates.

[Jay R]

OK, the angst thing might be a point.
But Vaarsuvius shouldn't have any reason to see Malack as a mutual enemy. He knows Malack, and could seem him as a victim of Belkar's unprovoked attack. Which is the most likely scenario to lead to a fight between them. This would at least lead Vaarsuvius to hesitate before jumping in.

I'm not convinced that Vaarsuvius needs much reason.

Now can we PLEASE resume saving the world? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html)

[Chantelune]

he said that because option 2 is alot more wordy then option one

he made it clear in the Palace that he had no qualms killing Durkon is actually a bit angry at Durkons deception

remember from his point of view Durkon purposely befriended him to steal information from him and everything he did was a lie



But when he agreed to join, the way he asked to be the one to kill Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html) didn't sound at all like he was holding a grudge. He said Durkon deserved the honor to be kill by him (a fellow cleric), despite his minor deception. Not the kind of speech you'd expect from someone angry and thinking he's been betrayed and used.

I don't say that Malack won't kill Durkon, though he doesn't seem quite eager to do so.

My view on that matter is that up to right now, anything goes. Malack might be up to his word and really try to kill Durkon or he might try to spare him, maybe by faking his death or something like that (or maybe even killing him to raise him afterward, when Tarquin is not looking.)

We'll probably won't know for sure until they cross path.

[Kish]

After the constant theories about how and when Belkar dies, I reeealllly hope that it is something so left-field that it both confuses and infuriates.
You want to be infuriated?

[Peelee]

he said that because option 2 is alot more wordy then option one

....you really think one extra word makes it "alot more wordy?" Or two syllables, if you want to count by how long it would take to actually say it? This isn't Z or V we're talking about here. This isn't an "ain't nobody got time for that" scenario. It's one word longer, and completely different connotations.

he made it clear in the Palace that he had no qualms killing Durkon
Source, please?

is actually a bit angry at Durkons deception
He was also a big angry and Tarquin's double standards regarding priorities (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html). Note the lack of attacking, followed by a rational discussion. This does not appear to be a man (well, lizard) who screams, "you passively deceived me in some small manner? DEATH BE UPON YOU!"

EDIT: Yes, he certainly seems to be quite frothy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html). Though I'd describe it more as "indifferent curiosity" than "quite angry."

remember from his point of view Durkon purposely befriended him to steal information from him
What information?

and everything he did was a lie
He was in an adventuring party and not alone. That instantly makes his every action a lie? Should Malack no longer believe he's a cleric? That Durkon isn't even a dwarf, and just had on a very convincing disguise?

[the_tick_rules]

Belkar vs. lizard boy? Start taking bets.

[Kish]

He was in an adventuring party and not alone. That instantly makes his every action a lie? Should Malack no longer believe he's a cleric? That Durkon isn't even a dwarf, and just had on a very convincing disguise?
I have no clue why Forikroder's windmill is that Malack hates Durkon. Beyond that, I suppose, it makes for a less complex situation than Malack's attitude toward Durkon being any more complex, if one considers that to have value in and of itself.

[Forikroder]

He was also a big angry and Tarquin's double standards regarding priorities. Note the lack of attacking, followed by a rational discussion. This does not appear to be a man (well, lizard) who screams, "you passively deceived me in some small manner? DEATH BE UPON YOU!"

you missing the 2 HUGE differences in scenario, Tarquin is his partner who hes been working with for a while to achieve a goal

Durkon is a stranger who he now knows was activing lieing to him and is in the way of that goal

there is actually no reason for Malack to spare Durkon sure there frends but if hes willing to ignore the death of his childresn (at least temporarily) for bussiness hes willing to kill a friend he only knew for 2 days, especially since taht friend was keeping secrets from him


I have no clue why Forikroder's windmill is that Malack hates Durkon. Beyond that, I suppose, it makes for a less complex situation than Malack's attitude toward Durkon being any more complex, if one considers that to have value in and of itself.

im not saying Malack hates Durkon im jsut saying that there not such fast friends that Malack will have a problem killing him

[Snails]

But when he agreed to join, the way he asked to be the one to kill Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html) didn't sound at all like he was holding a grudge. He said Durkon deserved the honor to be kill by him (a fellow cleric), despite his minor deception. Not the kind of speech you'd expect from someone angry and thinking he's been betrayed and used.

When it comes to Malack and Tarquin, we need to be extremely literal -- they do not dissemble, but they do deceive*.

"I alone shall handle the dwarf."

Malack is not revealing his intentions for Durkon, only that it is his responsibility, and the others need to lay off Durkon (or else).

* Strictly speaking, it is not proven that Malack has ever been deceptive. But I do have a nice bridge, slightly used...

[Snails]

im not saying Malack hates Durkon im jsut saying that there not such fast friends that Malack will have a problem killing him

Hard to say. In some fashion, Malack and Durkon seem to find each other philosophic kin. That might be more important than friendship or blood to Malack.

FWIW, I have doubts that death is Malack's intention. There are many other possible fates.

[Forikroder]

Hard to say. In some fashion, Malack and Durkon seem to find each other philosophic kin. That might be more important than friendship or blood to Malack.

FWIW, I have doubts that death is Malack's intention. There are many other possible fates.

not really, Tarquin wont want Durkon alive and able to bring in reinforcements or warn the elves for instance that Tarquin jsut got a WMD plus Durkon knows about Tarquins plan for the continent (or at least Tarquin has to assume Durkon does) so Durkon knows to much to make Durkon an enemy then let him live

[St Fan]

I love that Belkar's bouncing changed direction by 90 degrees to follow the ramp rather than straight on and over the edge. Once again, Physics is locked in a padded room screaming for the death of catgirls.

Or else... there is no "edge" at all, the ramp is always enclosed between walls, except they're not shown for the sake of the viewers to better see Belkar's tumble in all its glory, as is strongly implied by the view of the bottom of the ramp in panel 9.

[Mister Non PC]

First, Belkar isn't about to die here. The Giant is not going to kill off his funniest, most compelling character in a small corridor of a dungeon with no witnesses (other than a mute cat), well before the end of the quest. Can you see how anti-climactic his death would be?

It's just not the right time in the story. The Giant is a much better writer than that.

When (or IF) Belkar ever dies, it's going to be in the middle of an epic battle, with pages of build up, and within view of at least half of the OOTS, and probably the LG too. When Belkar dies there will be irony, treachery, and/or a major plot twist/reveal/or something I'm not even able to articulate.

I'm convinced from a literary standpoint, that the only characters in the tale who have a chance of killing Belkar are Xykon, Red Cloak, or The Monster in the Darkness. Perhaps Nale. Belkar is not going to fall to a character introduced only 150 pages ago.

Second, this encounter is not Belkar v. Malach. Mr. Scruffy is on Belkar's side, so it's a two to one fight. Cats hate reptiles, and Mr. Scruffy loves the Belkster.

I don't think anyone is about to die here, but if they do, I'd bet on Belkar to soon be sporting a new lizard skin hat.

[Forikroder]

First, Belkar isn't about to die here. The Giant is not going to kill off his funniest, most compelling character in a small corridor of a dungeon with no witnesses (other than a mute cat), well before the end of the quest. Can you see how anti-climactic his death would be?

It's just not the right time in the story. The Giant is a much better writer than that.

When (or IF) Belkar ever dies, it's going to be in the middle of an epic battle, with pages of build up, and within view of at least half of the OOTS, and probably the LG too. When Belkar dies there will be irony, treachery, and/or a major plot twist/reveal/or something I'm not even able to articulate.

I'm convinced from a literary standpoint, that the only characters in the tale who have a chance of killing Belkar are Xykon, Red Cloak, or The Monster in the Darkness. Perhaps Nale. Belkar is not going to fall to a character introduced only 150 pages ago.

Second, this encounter is not Belkar v. Malach. Mr. Scruffy is on Belkar's side, so it's a two to one fight. Cats hate reptiles, and Mr. Scruffy loves the Belkster.

I don't think anyone is about to die here, but if they do, I'd bet on Belkar to soon be sporting a new lizard skin hat.

Malack is actually a couple levels over him and simply a stronger class so the odds are in Malacks favour

i agree on most of your points except the importance your placing on Belkars death its entirely possible he dies to the linear guild, not right now but it could happen

IMO he dies because of Mr. Scruffy either Mr. Scruffy gets killed or Belkar dies trying to save him

[Chantelune]

Sometime, a simple death is more dramatic than something heroic and complex. Especially when everybody expect that death to occur in some grand way.

[Mister Non PC]

Malack is actually a couple levels over him and simply a stronger class so the odds are in Malacks favour...


If The Giant strictly followed the game logic of levels and class strength, this tale would have been over the minute Xykon entered the scene. OOTS has thus far followed the malleable rules of great story telling, rather than slavishly obeying the rules of gaming.

The Giant isn't playing a game here, he's writing an EPIC TALE.

[Forikroder]

If The Giant strictly followed the game logic of levels and class strength, this tale would have been over the minute Xykon entered the scene. OOTS has thus far followed the malleable rules of great story telling, rather than slavishly obeying the rules of gaming.

The Giant isn't playing a game here, he's writing an EPIC TALE.

based on a game

when you have one side who can throw around magic and the other side with 2 daggers its not that hard to tell who has the upper hand

[Glich]

Nergal will eat your soul, Belkar. :smallfrown:

sounds like a light snack at best

[Forikroder]

sounds like a light snack at best

at least it will be cold and refreshing

[ReaderAt2046]

Wait, who shot the arrows? Was it a trap? Probably, Malak can't use a bow, and the arrows were orange, so it wasn't Haley.

Definitely a trap, you can see Mr. Scruffy step on the trigger plate the panel before.

[Morty]

Conveniently enough, the Giant explained his approach to game balance in the story a while ago:


No, it was more like my way of acknowledging the prevailing popular opinion about D&D game balance--that single-class spellcasters are ultra-powerful compared to other characters--and then saying that game balance doesn't matter in my story, that Durkon isn't going to to just walk all over Nale because he's a cleric.

So I was communicating the way I expected the audience would perceive it, then I began the process of abolishing that perception.

(I bolded the most relevant part)

With that in mind, I still think Belkar's death at Malack's hand is not impossible. To say that it won't happen involves making far too many assumptions and completely misunderstanding what "dramatically appropriate" means.

[Snails]

From a story logic perspective, Malack wins.

Belkar may be able to kick Nale's tush in a simple brawl, but Nale has shown that he can easily own Belkar in a fair fight with simple magic.

Also consider that Malack makes the Sabine + Nale duo shiver in their boots.

Nale > Belkar
Malack > Nale + Sabine
implies
Malack > Belkar

It is not quite a foregone conclusion because
Malack > Belkar + Mr. Scruffy?

Seems like a good guess that Sabine > Mr. Scruffy, so YES.

[Forikroder]

From a story logic perspective, Malack wins.

Belkar may be able to kick Nale's tush in a simple brawl, but Nale has shown that he can easily own Belkar in a fair fight with simple magic.

Also consider that Malack makes the Sabine + Nale duo shiver in their boots.

Nale > Belkar
Malack > Nale + Sabine
implies
Malack > Belkar

It is not quite a foregone conclusion because
Malack > Belkar + Mr. Scruffy?

Seems like a good guess that Sabine > Mr. Scruffy, so YES.
in 90% of scenarios i would agree but Belkar will probably get to act first, AND hes in the perfect scenario to use his anti-miko strategy so id say the odds are 50/50 but most likely Belkar takes an opportunity to exit stage left

i think something BIG is gonna happen though, these 2 wouldnt meet in such a way without some reason and i dont think its to kill Belkar i think Malack has a reason for wandering around the Labyrinth like this

[ti'esar]

Conveniently enough, the Giant explained his approach to game balance in the story a while ago:



(I bolded the most relevant part)

With that in mind, I still think Belkar's death at Malack's hand is not impossible. To say that it won't happen involves making far too many assumptions and completely misunderstanding what "dramatically appropriate" means.

Wasn't that meant to be primarily about character tiers?

[rewinn]

malack hats nale not elan an alliance is not logical since both of them know that the other person if part of the team that there trying to kill

if it was roy.... there might be an alliance, if it was durkon there could be an alliance if it was elan thered definently be an alliance

but its BELKAR hell either try to kill Malack and leave no way he teams up with Malack

OK, when typing I got Nale mixed up with Elan. That happens a lot in this comic.

Now, are you interested in addressing the real issue: what are the character's motivations?

Am I the only one that thinks these two might just be able to get along? I mean, Malack is the cleric of a god of death, and Belkar is rather fond of killing people....

If Belkar knows anything about Malack (possibly from a party briefing on the way to Windy Canyon) it is that Malack hates Nale. So it's very reasonable for Belkar to propose a temporary alliance with Malack.

If we know anything about Malack, it's that he acts wisely. Yes, he hates Nale with good reason, but he's willing to suspend his justified rage for long-term goals. So it's very reasonable for Malack to propose a temporary alliance with Belkar.

Against that, neither gains much from killing the other: some XPs, a little loot, but nothing that is worth the risk of death when there's bigger fish to fry.

First, Belkar isn't about to die here. The Giant is not going to kill off his funniest, most compelling character in a small corridor of a dungeon with no witnesses (other than a mute cat), well before the end of the quest. Can you see how anti-climactic his death would be?

Also true. Belkar's death should be related to his character development, not from failing a saving throw.

[Caex]

Malack is actually a couple levels over him and simply a stronger class so the odds are in Malacks favour

i agree on most of your points except the importance your placing on Belkars death its entirely possible he dies to the linear guild, not right now but it could happen

IMO he dies because of Mr. Scruffy either Mr. Scruffy gets killed or Belkar dies trying to save him

... or maybe the Snarl will take him out. That would certainly complicate any effort to revive him.

[martianmister]

Roy and Haley already implied that they're not gonna resurrect Belkar, no matter what.

[ranagrande]

Belkar can't die yet anyway. He still has to save Hinjo's life again first.

[Forikroder]

Roy and Haley already implied that they're not gonna resurrect Belkar, no matter what.

i dont think so, i think Roy was saying if Belkar started going beserk they could run out the clock

saying tehy wont rez him no matter what is going too far


Now, are you interested in addressing the real issue: what are the character's motivations?

id say for Malack its greed, maybe he likes security


no matter how you slice it, Belkar is standing between him and his end goal of ruling the continent (well hes standing in the way of him and an artifact that will significantly speed up the comletion of said goal)

he knows Belkar is part of the OoTS, he knows that the OoTS is defending the gate

he has literally no reason to let Belkar leave unless for some reason he thinks hes unable to kill Belkar or has some sort of ulterior motive

and belkar likes to kill and killing malack is perfectly within his current plan of "try to pretend to be a useful party member"




If Belkar knows anything about Malack (possibly from a party briefing on the way to Windy Canyon) it is that Malack hates Nale. So it's very reasonable for Belkar to propose a temporary alliance with Malack.

and if Belkar paid any attention at all to there last fight hed know that Malack already teamed up with Nale to come take the gate, what do you think hes gonna pay more attention to, a fight or some briefing by Roy

hell i wouldnt be surprised if Roy doesnt even bother filling Belkar in on anything

[ReaderAt2046]

From a story logic perspective, Malack wins.

Belkar may be able to kick Nale's tush in a simple brawl, but Nale has shown that he can easily own Belkar in a fair fight with simple magic.

Also consider that Malack makes the Sabine + Nale duo shiver in their boots.

Nale > Belkar
Malack > Nale + Sabine
implies
Malack > Belkar

It is not quite a foregone conclusion because
Malack > Belkar + Mr. Scruffy?

Seems like a good guess that Sabine > Mr. Scruffy, so YES.

Actually, it was Durkon+Malack>Sabine+Nale, which is a different kettle of fish.

[delta639]

Given the Giant's penchant for toying with reader expectations, I'm definitely hoping that the next strip doesn't involve the Belkar/Malack fight that most everyone is expecting.

It's not impossible, certainly, but Malack seems unlikely to aggress unless Belkar provokes him first. And I don't think the two of them have ever interacted onpage before, so as has been mentioned, the motivation for a fight doesn't seem all that great here.



If Belkar knows anything about Malack (possibly from a party briefing on the way to Windy Canyon) it is that Malack hates Nale. So it's very reasonable for Belkar to propose a temporary alliance with Malack.

If we know anything about Malack, it's that he acts wisely. Yes, he hates Nale with good reason, but he's willing to suspend his justified rage for long-term goals. So it's very reasonable for Malack to propose a temporary alliance with Belkar.

Against that, neither gains much from killing the other: some XPs, a little loot, but nothing that is worth the risk of death when there's bigger fish to fry.


I'd add that Belkar almost certainly knows Malack to be Tarquin's ally, at least, and that might be more than enough reason to attack him (not to mention that Belkar does just like killing and tends to require little motivation for it, even with character development.) So I'll agree with Forikroder on that point if few others. Additionally, I think Belkar's the party member least likely to propose an alliance (honestly, has he ever chosen a non-violent means of resolving a situation? Jenny excepted.)

As for Malack, while I'm very doubtful that his driving motivation here is greed, and a major goal of his at the moment would be killing Nale, his longstanding friendship with Tarquin shouldn't be underestimated. To me Malack seems less dedicated to the continent shadow-ruling plan than, say, Tarquin himself is, but he was still a member of Tarquin's party who decided to undertake it in the first place. And since Malack does know Belkar to be a member of the OOTS, and in the way of Tarquin's grab for the gate (not to mention an obstacle to the mission's end when Malack hopes to kill Nale), he might simply try and eliminate Belkar as that sort of obstacle. Durkon's the only member of the OOTS I think Malack would have actual qualms with killing, potential Lawful Neutrality aside.




First, Belkar isn't about to die here. The Giant is not going to kill off his funniest, most compelling character in a small corridor of a dungeon with no witnesses (other than a mute cat), well before the end of the quest. Can you see how anti-climactic his death would be?

Also true. Belkar's death should be related to his character development, not from failing a saving throw.
Regardless, seconding both of these. If there is a confrontation here, I doubt it'll end with anyone dying.

[allenw]

In short, i see not a single reason why this should be Belkars time of death. In a story arc as complex as this one, the "next few weeks" might be hundreds of strips, so there is a LONG while before time is definately up.

Belkar's last words, "There's no way he ever saw THIS one coming!", (speaking about Roy), are dramatically pointless unless they're irony, referring to the fact that Roy has known about Belkar's eventual demise for almost a year now. Therefore, Rich wants and expects us to believe that Belkar is about to die.
Rich has probably wanted and expected us to believe this before, of course (see Evisceratus. (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Evisceratus)) But I don't think it's a bluff this time.

I've said it before, and I may not have to say it again: Belkar will become Malack's undead replacement-child (whether or not Malack, and/or his original children, are/were undead).

[137beth]

Definitely a trap, you can see Mr. Scruffy step on the trigger plate the panel before.

Oh...oops, I missed the obvious clue:smallbiggrin:
Anyways, I think Belkar may well die soon, but might continue in the story in some form or another.

[Gift Jeraff]

Belkar's last words, "There's no way he ever saw THIS one coming!", (speaking about Roy), are dramatically pointless unless they're irony, referring to the fact that Roy has known about Belkar's eventual demise for almost a year now. Therefore, Rich wants and expects us to believe that Belkar is about to die.
Rich has probably wanted and expected us to believe this before, of course (see Evisceratus. (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Evisceratus)) But I don't think it's a bluff this time.

I've said it before, and I may not have to say it again: Belkar will become Malack's undead replacement-child (whether or not Malack, and/or his original children, are/were undead).

Malack is "normally against that sort of thing" and only animated the mummies because he saw the abundance of such a rare resource as a divine gift.

[oppyu]

i dont think so, i think Roy was saying if Belkar started going beserk they could run out the clock

saying tehy wont rez him no matter what is going too far
"Pretty soon, Belkar's fate will be someone else's problem. Someone bony with a black robe and a big scythe. Until then, we do what we can to keep him pointed at the bad guys."
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)
Unless the Oracle pops in or something and says 'Without Belkar alive for the final gate, the world will end", I think they're planning to leave Belkar in the ground.

[theNater]

"Pretty soon, Belkar's fate will be someone else's problem. Someone bony with a black robe and a big scythe. Until then, we do what we can to keep him pointed at the bad guys."
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)
Unless the Oracle pops in or something and says 'Without Belkar alive for the final gate, the world will end", I think they're planning to leave Belkar in the ground.
They're planning on Belkar staying in the ground, which is not quite the same thing. As long as Belkar is playing Employee of the Month, he's a valuable asset. Failing to Raise him, should the opportunity exist, would be silly.

However, there are any number of things that could keep the Order from being able to Raise Belkar. It could be something as mundane as not having enough diamonds, something as exotic as him being entirely unmade by the Snarl, or something in between. The Oracle's statements may well imply an insurmountable obstacle, and Roy is certainly smart enough to be aware that sometimes you can't fight fate.

[Morty]

Wasn't that meant to be primarily about character tiers?

Possibly, but since the argument here is that Belkar is a melee fighter against a cleric and therefore is sure to lose, it applies perfectly.

[theinsulabot]

It won't be they don't have enough diamonds, at least, not at this juncture, since darken noted they have enough diamonds for one more resurrection. It's one of the things that lead me to believe belkar was due for a destruction from the lizreaper (shaddup, it sounds better then lizgreaper) as opposed to a slay living.

[Bulldog Psion]

I doubt either of them will die at this point, either, but things have been known to come out of left field in this comic, so I won't completely discount it. :smallwink:

Whatever happens, I'm eager to see it in action!

[Jay R]

"Pretty soon, Belkar's fate will be someone else's problem. Someone bony with a black robe and a big scythe. Until then, we do what we can to keep him pointed at the bad guys."
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)

Well, someone in a black robe just showed up...

[Forikroder]

"Pretty soon, Belkar's fate will be someone else's problem. Someone bony with a black robe and a big scythe. Until then, we do what we can to keep him pointed at the bad guys."
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html)
Unless the Oracle pops in or something and says 'Without Belkar alive for the final gate, the world will end", I think they're planning to leave Belkar in the ground.

haley asked "what do we do if we cant control him" and then roy answered run out the clock

if Belkar continues being a model party member and helping them out then tehy raise him when possible

if he somehow has a ligitmate change of heart thent ehyd raise him even if it would be very hard

of course Belkar is not going to have a ligitmate change of hart, but i doubt hes going to betray them so im putting my money on circumstance prevent raising him

[theNater]

It won't be they don't have enough diamonds, at least, not at this juncture, since darken noted they have enough diamonds for one more resurrection. It's one of the things that lead me to believe belkar was due for a destruction from the lizreaper (shaddup, it sounds better then lizgreaper) as opposed to a slay living.
They may need to Raise somebody else before Belkar dies. Alternately, they may need to Raise Belkar from a Slay Living now, and then be out of diamonds when he dies again a week from now. Availability of diamonds is still a concern.

[Forikroder]

They may need to Raise somebody else before Belkar dies. Alternately, they may need to Raise Belkar from a Slay Living now, and then be out of diamonds when he dies again a week from now. Availability of diamonds is still a concern.

if they run out of diamonds they can jsut stuff him in a bag until they get more though

[factotum]

They may need to Raise somebody else before Belkar dies. Alternately, they may need to Raise Belkar from a Slay Living now, and then be out of diamonds when he dies again a week from now. Availability of diamonds is still a concern.

Or alternatively alternatively, they might not have a cleric who *can* raise Belkar--Durkon is supposed to die as well before they get to Kraagor's gate, after all.

[Parse]

I love that the title is "Unleash the Fury" - Belkar finally gets a riding hound!



Momentarily

[Purgatorius]

I am actually doubting that Belkar will recognise Malack.
The only time they were at the same place at the same time was directly before the Order left the palace on the flying carpet, comic 818 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0818.html). If you look at Belkar, you see that he has his back turned to Malack all the time.

We have also seen at other (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html) occasions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html) that Belkar is notoriously bad at remembering peoples' names. He could be equally bad at remembering people at all, that he hasn't even looked at.

Of course, it is possible that the rest of the Order told him about Malack off-panel on the travel to Windy Canyon. But it is also possible that they told him, but he wasn't listening.

This could be the reason to why Mr Scruffy is trying to warn him – Mr Scruffy has met Malack and knows exactly who he is.

Malack, on the other hand, knows well that there is a halfling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html) in the Order.

[rewinn]

... Malack seems unlikely to aggress unless Belkar provokes him first. ....

Yes. Malack is wise. He doesn't know squat about the pyramid, except that he's alone in it. Starting a fight is pointless at this time; you're certainly right to point out he's very loyal to Tarquin's ally, but the party is Nale's, not Tarquin's; Malack won't betray his friend, but wouldn't he have a good day if he could escort Belkar to Nale?

One point: It's not likely that Belkar knows Malack came with Nale/Tarquin, since B was hiding up in the ceiling before the ambush and M was at the back of the party when the trap wall blocked the way.

Well, we'll see. Maybe Mr. Scruffy will intervene at a key moment; he's already shown great ability in disrupting spellcasters.


Belkar's last words, "There's no way he ever saw THIS one coming!"....

:elan: No! Never say that! That's something you say just before you get a very bad surprise!!!!

[Forikroder]

I am actually doubting that Belkar will recognise Malack.
The only time they were at the same place at the same time was directly before the Order left the palace on the flying carpet, comic 818 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0818.html). If you look at Belkar, you see that he has his back turned to Malack all the time.

We have also seen at other (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html) occasions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html) that Belkar is notoriously bad at remembering peoples' names. He could be equally bad at remembering people at all, that he hasn't even looked at.

Of course, it is possible that the rest of the Order told him about Malack off-panel on the travel to Windy Canyon. But it is also possible that they told him, but he wasn't listening.

This could be the reason to why Mr Scruffy is trying to warn him – Mr Scruffy has met Malack and knows exactly who he is.

Malack, on the other hand, knows well that there is a halfling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html) in the Order.

remember when Nale was pretending to be Elan? Belkar can remember people by scent as well, and remember the frames arent the entire story people move around between frames and figut around so if you think that the entire time Belkar was in Malacks company he enver once looked at him youd be mistaken

Belkar has a bad memory for a random encounter and a one night stand but if its a dangerous enemy hell remember him

[JackRackham]

I don't think Belkar is going to die here. Why? Because everyone seems to expect it and The Giant has done a good job thus far of being very tough to predict.

[FujinAkari]

I don't think Belkar is going to die here. Why? Because everyone seems to expect it and The Giant has done a good job thus far of being very tough to predict.

"Everyone" has expected it EVERY ENCOUNTER since the prophesy happened. Its getting rather annoying :P

[sam79]

"Everyone" has expected it EVERY ENCOUNTER since the prophesy happened. Its getting rather annoying :P

Well, like a stopped clock, 'everyone' is bound to be right sooner or later! Personally I think Belkar will meet his end during a showdown with Team Evil, and that if someone dies in the next strip or two, it'll be Malak.

[KyrtFurey]

Well, like a stopped clock, 'everyone' is bound to be right sooner or later! Personally I think Belkar will meet his end during a showdown with Team Evil, and that if someone dies in the next strip or two, it'll be Malak.

I dunno.

Thing is, this is about the first time I've got the feeling that the conditions are right for Belkars death. None of the other times where he might have died ever gave that feel...

The setup here just strikes me as getting everythign into place.

Belkar has left the rest of the party.
He is alone, about to meet a high level cleric for an "enemy" unit.
Most damning? That last line of his. It's tempting fate too much ;)

[sam79]

The setup here just strikes me as getting everythign into place.

Belkar has left the rest of the party.
He is alone, about to meet a high level cleric for an "enemy" unit.
Most damning? That last line of his. It's tempting fate too much ;)

True enough; that line is pretty suggestive. But it could just be our author playing with our expectations! I still don't think this encounter is plot-heavy enough to warrant the death of such a major character. I think it will be slightly...dissappointing for either of these characters to die in an obscure corridor of the dungeon.

[theNater]

if they run out of diamonds they can jsut stuff him in a bag until they get more though
Getting more is probably not difficult for a party the level of the Order. However, Probability has been known to sneak into a back alley and service Drama as would a copper-piece harlot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html), so we can't conclusively rule it out.

That said, I don't expect being out of diamonds to be a permanent issue for the Order, though it may delay them until some other factor renders Belkar permanently unrecoverable.

Or alternatively alternatively, they might not have a cleric who *can* raise Belkar--Durkon is supposed to die as well before they get to Kraagor's gate, after all.
Yes, not having a cleric who is both willing and able would be another one of the many things that could keep the Order from being able to Raise Belkar. It is one separate from running out of diamonds, however, which makes me wonder why you chose to quote the post you did.

remember when Nale was pretending to be Elan? Belkar can remember people by scent as well, and remember the frames arent the entire story people move around between frames and figut around so if you think that the entire time Belkar was in Malacks company he enver once looked at him youd be mistaken

Belkar has a bad memory for a random encounter and a one night stand but if its a dangerous enemy hell remember him
Belkar met Malack once, out-of-doors, for a few minutes, on friendly terms. This is rather significantly different than his time with Nale prior to that recognition.

Also note that Belkar is having a hard time smelling anything over the stench of corpses; he may not be able to smell Malack well enough, even if he has sufficient familiarity.

On the other hand, Malack does make a rather striking visual(albino lizardfolk in black robes!), so even a few offhand glances at Malack could suffice. It's really up in the air right now whether Belkar will recognize Malack or not.

[ti'esar]

True enough; that line is pretty suggestive. But it could just be our author playing with our expectations! I still don't think this encounter is plot-heavy enough to warrant the death of such a major character. I think it will be slightly...dissappointing for either of these characters to die in an obscure corridor of the dungeon.

It's almost certainly the author playing with our expectations. This is too random an encounter to be a dramatically satisfying end for Belkar, and not random enough of one to be a deliberately non-dramatic/random death.

[davidbofinger]

It's almost certainly the author playing with our expectations. This is too random an encounter to be a dramatically satisfying end for Belkar, and not random enough of one to be a deliberately non-dramatic/random death.

True, but--

How carefully have we analysed the oracular statements? There's all sorts of quibble room in them. He says Belkar will die, he says Belkar will be the responsibility of someone with black robes and a scythe, it's not inevitable that these things happen at the same time. The Giant could be planning on burning one of the less important predictions on this scene, while retaining the meaty bits for a climax.

[Nimrod's Son]

Yeah, but one reference doesn't exclude another.
It kinda does. Rich is just reusing a phrase he first used before Malmsteen used it. That doesn't make it a reference any more than Malmsteen was himself referencing OotS.


And face it, decadent hair metal shredders from the 80s are funny as is.
I for one do not find this strip any funnier just because it shares a title with an Yngwie Malmsteen album. Your mileage may vary and all that.

[Shadebolt]

I was right!

[Mike Havran]

I am actually doubting that Belkar will recognise Malack.
The only time they were at the same place at the same time was directly before the Order left the palace on the flying carpet, comic 818 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0818.html). If you look at Belkar, you see that he has his back turned to Malack all the time.

We have also seen at other (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html) occasions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html) that Belkar is notoriously bad at remembering peoples' names. He could be equally bad at remembering people at all, that he hasn't even looked at.

Of course, it is possible that the rest of the Order told him about Malack off-panel on the travel to Windy Canyon. But it is also possible that they told him, but he wasn't listening.

This could be the reason to why Mr Scruffy is trying to warn him – Mr Scruffy has met Malack and knows exactly who he is.

Malack, on the other hand, knows well that there is a halfling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html) in the Order.

I agree with this. It is probable that Belkar won't recognize Malack. But what then? He will consider him as one of the pyramid's guardians (or some random encounter), and attack immediately...

I think at this point, both of them have enough plot armor to survive, so the most probable scenario is that they won't fight at all.

[SteveDJ]

haley asked "what do we do if we cant control him" and then roy answered run out the clock

if Belkar continues being a model party member and helping them out then tehy raise him when possible

if he somehow has a ligitmate change of heart thent ehyd raise him even if it would be very hard

of course Belkar is not going to have a ligitmate change of hart, but i doubt hes going to betray them so im putting my money on circumstance prevent raising him

Suppose Belkar does die here, and then does get raised. How to keep the prediction intact? Well, maybe the act of raising him from the dead does cause a change in Belkar -- maybe he changes his NAME!

Thus, Belkar has "drawn his last breath" -- but new-name goes on! :smallbiggrin:

[Shadebolt]

partial sarcasm on*
Can you believe it? Belkar finally gets to unleash the fury he's always wanted to, but he doesn't realize it! :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin:
partial sarcasm off*

I was right! Yay! :smalltongue:

[Kish]

Suppose Belkar does die here, and then does get raised. How to keep the prediction intact? Well, maybe the act of raising him from the dead does cause a change in Belkar -- maybe he changes his NAME!

Thus, Belkar has "drawn his last breath" -- but new-name goes on! :smallbiggrin:
Because every time the Oracle predicted Belkar's death, he said the name Belkar, never saying that the death was going to happen to The Halfling or Your Friend.

[Forikroder]

Well, like a stopped clock, 'everyone' is bound to be right sooner or later! Personally I think Belkar will meet his end during a showdown with Team Evil, and that if someone dies in the next strip or two, it'll be Malak.

Malack has plot armour till he meets durkon


Getting more is probably not difficult for a party the level of the Order. However, Probability has been known to sneak into a back alley and service Drama as would a copper-piece harlot, so we can't conclusively rule it out.

That said, I don't expect being out of diamonds to be a permanent issue for the Order, though it may delay them until some other factor renders Belkar permanently unrecoverable.

possible, but if they ever get hold of the body they can stuff it in a bag and then they have YEARS to gather enough diamonds

[Jay R]

It's almost certainly the author playing with our expectations.

Form the Oracle's announcement to the present, and on until Belkar's death, every risk Belkar takes will be "playing with our expectations" in that sense. The author can't prevent it.


This is too random an encounter to be a dramatically satisfying end for Belkar, and not random enough of one to be a deliberately non-dramatic/random death.

Random? Exactly how many things had to break exactly right to get Belkar into a solo encounter with a cleric of a god of death, in the aforementioned black robe, from an opposing team, who has already complained about merely toying with the OotS, immediately after a fight between the teams, with the cleric not knowing if his party has been defeated or captured?

What is it going to take for you to see the hand of fate - An actual oracle predicting Belkar's death? A pyramid full of mummies? (We're all out of 200 foot flaming letters.)

And I have no idea how random or dramatically satisfying an encounter will be, until I see the actual encounter. Its emotional value will be provided by the conversation, just as I had no idea how important Tarquin's conversation with Elan would be. (On a rooftop no less. Exquisite.)

[No, I'm not convinced that this is the one, though it wouldn't surprise me if it was. But nothing in the story is random. Rich is not rolling dice; he's telling a story.]

[Forikroder]

Form the Oracle's announcement to the present, and on until Belkar's death, every risk Belkar takes will be "playing with our expectations" in that sense. The author can't prevent it.



Random? Exactly how many things had to break exactly right to get Belkar into a solo encounter with a cleric of a god of death, in the aforementioned black robe, from an opposing team, who has already complained about merely toying with the OotS, immediately after a fight between the teams, with the cleric not knowing if his party has been defeated or captured?

What is it going to take for you to see the hand of fate - An actual oracle predicting Belkar's death? A pyramid full of mummies? (We're all out of 200 foot flaming letters.)

And I have no idea how random or dramatically satisfying an encounter will be, until I see the actual encounter. Its emotional value will be provided by the conversation, just as I had no idea how important Tarquin's conversation with Elan would be. (On a rooftop no less. Exquisite.)

[No, I'm not convinced that this is the one, though it wouldn't surprise me if it was. But nothing in the story is random. Rich is not rolling dice; he's telling a story.]

its random becuase there was no foreshadowing or evidence of any sort to hint that Belkar and Malack would meet here nor were either side trying to meet the other one both were just wandering around and happened to meet

[factotum]

its random becuase there was no foreshadowing or evidence of any sort to hint that Belkar and Malack would meet here nor were either side trying to meet the other one both were just wandering around and happened to meet

I really don't see why that should mean that Belkar won't die here. Not every encounter has to be an epic battle on the castle walls, and not every death has to have a meaning beyond "His luck ran out that day".

[Forikroder]

I really don't see why that should mean that Belkar won't die here. Not every encounter has to be an epic battle on the castle walls, and not every death has to have a meaning beyond "His luck ran out that day".

i never said that all i said was this was a random encounter i had no further meaning by that he said this encounter was not random and i corrected him

[theNater]

I really don't see why that should mean that Belkar won't die here. Not every encounter has to be an epic battle on the castle walls, and not every death has to have a meaning beyond "His luck ran out that day".
Every death of a major character generally should have some meaning, even if that meaning is "bad stuff sometimes happens for no apparent reason". That's part of good storytelling.

For this comic in particular, are there any deaths of named characters that don't have some meaning beyond one character's luck running out? Even Solt Lorkyug and Samantha got deaths that were meaningful to us as the audience, although they probably didn't recognize the significance.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Regarding the possibility of Vaarsuvius intervening: Remember, V does not know Tarquin and Malack are hostile. Remember, V freaked out before the fight upstairs - the last time he saw either of them was before they set out for Giraud's Gate. While he'd be suspicious of Malack (as he has no good known reason to be their), he wouldn't assume he's hostile just because he appears to be an enemy of an Order Member - methinks his days of doing that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html) are long over.

Also, less-sympathetic protagonist brawler vs more-sympathetic antagonist caster? this reminds me of something... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0369.html)

Go the distance, Malack! Go the distance!

[Emmit Svenson]

I've got my own theory about where the Malak storyline is going--the endgame is Durkon returning to his homeland as an undead creature, racing against the Order of the Stick to get to the final gate.

If I'm correct, Malak's main motivation is to get to Durkon and turn him. How he reacts to Belkar will be informed by that motive. He might try to dupe him into helping; he might try to quest him into helping; he might try to charm him with his gaze; he might attempt to kill him and raise him.

I'm of the opinion that Belkar's main favored enemy is reptilians--kobolds and, yes, lizardfolk. He might also have undead as a favored enemy, which would cover, oh, say, a lizardman ghoul high priest of Nergal.

But we've seen what Belkar can do. We've seen comparatively little of what Malak can do. I think this encounter will establish Malak's badass credentials.

[FujinAkari]

For this comic in particular, are there any deaths of named characters that don't have some meaning beyond one character's luck running out?

Trigak. :P

[AgentofHellfire]

Actually, it was Durkon+Malack>Sabine+Nale, which is a different kettle of fish.


Durkon was also involved in that battle, but it was Malack who nearly killed Nale on his first turn of involvement.

So I would think Malack's value there would be much greater than Durkon's.

[ti'esar]

True, but--

How carefully have we analysed the oracular statements? There's all sorts of quibble room in them. He says Belkar will die, he says Belkar will be the responsibility of someone with black robes and a scythe, it's not inevitable that these things happen at the same time. The Giant could be planning on burning one of the less important predictions on this scene, while retaining the meaty bits for a climax.

Er, the "black robes and scythe" bit was Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) reflecting on the prophecy, not anything the Oracle actually said.

And I'm actually not sure what the rest of your point is.


Form the Oracle's announcement to the present, and on until Belkar's death, every risk Belkar takes will be "playing with our expectations" in that sense. The author can't prevent it.

To a certain extent, yes. But I think this is a little more obviously meant to provoke that reaction then, say, all that stuff about how Kilkil was sure to killkill Belkar.


Random? Exactly how many things had to break exactly right to get Belkar into a solo encounter with a cleric of a god of death, in the aforementioned black robe, from an opposing team, who has already complained about merely toying with the OotS, immediately after a fight between the teams, with the cleric not knowing if his party has been defeated or captured?

That's... exactly my point, actually, and I'm baffled as to why you're wording it as if you think it's some kind of refutation. Unlike a lot of people who keep going on about "dramatic appropriateness", I think it's possible that Belkar could die in an utterly random sort of way, but this encounter isn't random. In fact, if there's any one reason why I doubt Belkar will die in this encounter, it's how blatant the hand of the author has been in setting it up.

[Xacal]

So is Belkar gonna die already, or what?

I almost feel like the prophecy's going to be subverted in some way, just because we've seen it coming for so long.

[Kish]

And yet people have been predicting it being subverted since a week before it was made.

[Forikroder]

That's... exactly my point, actually, and I'm baffled as to why you're wording it as if you think it's some kind of refutation. Unlike a lot of people who keep going on about "dramatic appropriateness", I think it's possible that Belkar could die in an utterly random sort of way, but this encounter isn't random. In fact, if there's any one reason why I doubt Belkar will die in this encounter, it's how blatant the hand of the author has been in setting it up.

ya because we knew that Malack was wandering around in the labyrinth before the final frame of the altest chapter...

if Belkar dies here it would be with 0 foreshadowing it would be completely random

if you asked ANYONE when last chapter was released if Belkar would die because hed get lost and chance upon Malack everyone would say no because theres no reason to think that Malack or belkar would get lost and happen across each other

[Kish]

if you asked ANYONE when last chapter was released if Belkar would die because hed get lost and chance upon Malack everyone would say no
Everyone would say, "Who or what is Malack?" actually.

[Forikroder]

Everyone would say, "Who or what is Malack?" actually.

i dont get it i spelled his name right i dont understand how your mocking me

[oppyu]

i dont get it i spelled his name right i dont understand how your mocking me
When the last chapter was released, Malack had not been introduced yet. So people would be asking "who is this character you claim kills Belkar?"

[Forikroder]

When the last chapter was released, Malack had not been introduced yet. So people would be asking "who is this character you claim kills Belkar?"

Malacks first apearence was in 718 so he was intodices exactly 150 chapters ago...

[FujinAkari]

Malacks first apearence was in 718 so he was intodices exactly 150 chapters ago...

No. He was introduced 150 STRIPS ago. The last chapter was in Don't Split the Party and ended before the party had even made it to the Western Continent.

By the way, this post contains four sentences, not four chapters, in case that isn't clear.

[Forikroder]

No. He was introduced 150 STRIPS ago. The last chapter was Don't Split the Party and ended before the party had even made it to the Western Continent.

By the way, this post contains four sentences, not four chapters, in case that isn't clear.

no that was the last BOOK if you look at #867 youll see Roy agrees with me

[FujinAkari]

no that was the last BOOK if you look at #867 youll see Roy agrees with me

While it is very likely that there is a chapter between now and the end of Don't Split the Party, we do not know where they lie. Therefore, the last confirmed chapter is at the very end of the last published book.

[Jay R]

That's... exactly my point, actually, and I'm baffled as to why you're wording it as if you think it's some kind of refutation. Unlike a lot of people who keep going on about "dramatic appropriateness", I think it's possible that Belkar could die in an utterly random sort of way, but this encounter isn't random. In fact, if there's any one reason why I doubt Belkar will die in this encounter, it's how blatant the hand of the author has been in setting it up.

You originally said, "This is too random an encounter..." I was refuting that. You are now saying "...this encounter isn't random,", as if that was your original position.

I agree with your new position that it isn't random. I was refuting your old position that it was too random.

[Jay R]

if Belkar dies here it would be with 0 foreshadowing it would be completely random

"0 foreshadowing"? If that were true, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Belkar's death was foretold by a prophesy in comic #572, so it's been foreshadowed for about a third of the entire story.


if Belkar dies here it would be with 0 foreshadowing it would be completely random

"0 foreshadowing"? If that were true, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Belkar's death was foretold by a prophesy in comic #572, so it's been foreshadowed for about a third of the entire story.

[Forikroder]

"0 foreshadowing"? If that were true, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Belkar's death was foretold by a prophesy in comic #572, so it's been foreshadowed for about a third of the entire story.

it was foreshadowed that he would die at some point in the comic

it was not foreshadowed at all taht he would meet malack in an underground labyrinth and they would fight and belkar would get killed

[Kish]

...Okay. You're using "chapter" to mean "strip."

With that understanding, I would like to revise my response.


if you asked ANYONE when last [strip] was released if Belkar would die because hed get lost and chance upon Malack everyone would say no
No, I wouldn't. I'd shrug and say, "Maybe, let's wait and see."

I imagine I'm not the only one who wouldn't find the idea particularly implausible had someone predicted it when the most recent strip was #867. I will, however, predict with pretty much complete certainty that whatever your response to this is, it will not acknowledge that your extremely fragile claim that EVERYONE would say no is already disproven whether anyone above and beyond me chimes in to say they wouldn't have said that or not.

[theNater]

Trigak. :P
I'm slightly tempted to argue that Trigak's death was to provide a springboard for some jokes, or to act as a red herring for Eugene's prophecy, but I can't really do that in good faith. Therefore, I concede the point; characters in OotS do sometimes die just because their luck ran out.

[Forikroder]

...Okay. You're using "chapter" to mean "strip."

With that understanding, I would like to revise my response.

No, I wouldn't. I'd shrug and say, "Maybe, let's wait and see."

I imagine I'm not the only one who wouldn't find the idea particularly implausible had someone predicted it when the most recent strip was #867. I will, however, predict with pretty much complete certainty that whatever your response to this is, it will not acknowledge that your extremely fragile claim that EVERYONE would say no is already disproven whether anyone above and beyond me chimes in to say they wouldn't have said that or not.

i suppose some people might have but what i meant by everyone was the vast vast majority of people and anyone who would have rpedicted it would have done so without any evidence or reason to predict it

[jere7my]

i suppose some people might have but what i meant by everyone was the vast vast majority of people and anyone who would have rpedicted it would have done so without any evidence or reason to predict it

At least two people predicted it in the comments for the last strip. E.g.:


My guess as to what happens is Belkar encounters Malack who is outraged to see Belkar killing his missing hellhound, slays him and raises him as a kill-happy undead abomination

[ti'esar]

And, while not naming Malack specifically, quite a few more people predicted that riding off on the hellhound would lead - in one way or another - to Belkar's death.

[Math_Mage]

if Belkar dies here it would be with 0 foreshadowing it would be completely random

Keep in mind that if Malack does kill Belkar as a result of this encounter, it doesn't have to play out as a random death. You're assuming nothing happens between Belkar encountering Malack, Belkar fighting Malack, and Malack killing Belkar.

Either way, depending on how generally you interpret bony figures in black capes with scythes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html), we have potential foreshadowing. So '0 foreshadowing' is incorrect regardless.

[Jay R]

it was foreshadowed that he would die at some point in the comic

it was not foreshadowed at all taht he would meet malack in an underground labyrinth and they would fight and belkar would get killed

Right. Which means that there was some foreshadowing, but not 100% foreshadowing.

That means "0 foreshadowing" was incorrect.

[Forikroder]

And, while not naming Malack specifically, quite a few more people predicted that riding off on the hellhound would lead - in one way or another - to Belkar's death.

people say that every time something happens, hell if belkar ever took a bath people would be saying that he would slip and break his neck


Keep in mind that if Malack does kill Belkar as a result of this encounter, it doesn't have to play out as a random death. You're assuming nothing happens between Belkar encountering Malack, Belkar fighting Malack, and Malack killing Belkar.

Either way, depending on how generally you interpret bony figures in black capes with scythes, we have potential foreshadowing. So '0 foreshadowing' is incorrect regardless.

it would be near impossible for enough to happen during the fight to overshadow the fact that they met by complete chance like that

also the bony figure in black cape with scythe was Roys statement


Right. Which means that there was some foreshadowing, but not 100% foreshadowing.

That means "0 foreshadowing" was incorrect.

there was 0 foreshadowing that Belakr would meet Malack like they did

i just want to point out that personally i dont actually care how random the encounter is, i doubt Belkar is going to die here but i do think its possible

its jsut annoying that people are calling this meeting anything but random

[Kish]

also the bony figure in black cape with scythe was Roys statement

You don't quite grasp what foreshadowing is, do you?


there was 0 foreshadowing that Belakr would meet Malack like they did
I wonder how, in your view, it would be possible to have anything but 0% or 100% foreshadowing. Given that you will apparently not acknowledge anything as foreshadowing except an explicit, detailed statement of exactly what will happen, made by a being with the power to predict the future (which wouldn't be foreshadowing, as such, at all actually).

i suppose some people might have but what i meant by everyone was the vast vast majority of people
And what you should have said instead of "everyone," Forikroder, was, "I, Forikroder."

This vast tide of agreement with you that you claim is insupportable.

[oppyu]

there was 0 foreshadowing that Belakr would meet Malack like they did
Isn't there? Belkar and Malack headed to the same location in search of the same item. Both men were split from their party, and are now wandering the pyramid alone. And it so happens that both men wander into each other.

That's about the same level of foreshadowing there was that Roy would leap onto a flying dragon to try and fight an epic-level undead sorcerer in hand-to-hand combat, or that Belkar would become frustrated and use the Oracle as a magical dagger repository.

[FujinAkari]

there was 0 foreshadowing that Belakr would meet Malack like they did

Belkar hasn't met Malack yet.

Moreso, I do not understand why you think there -must- be foreshadowing. Was Samantha's death foreshadowed? What about the captain of the CPPD? Hell, what about Roy?

[Forikroder]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0861.html

just reread 861 where Malack saids he plans to find a way around the obstruction so there is some foreshadowing that theyll meet (though its still fairly random that they did meet and seems like everyone else forgot taht line as well)

i took Tarquins assumption that Malack would meet them above ground (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html) as it being some sort of protocal among them but seems like Malack assumed taht the LG would prevail and he should be trying to find his own way through


Moreso, I do not understand why you think there -must- be foreshadowing. Was Samantha's death foreshadowed? What about the captain of the CPPD? Hell, what about Roy?

the captain of the CPPD and Samantha were pointless side characters, even if they didnt die theyd never show up again so giving them a meaningful death is pointless

and Roys death was pretty obvious by the time he decided to jump onto a dragon to fight Xykon 1v1

[FujinAkari]

i took Tarquins assumption that Malack would meet them above ground (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0863.html) as it being some sort of protocal among them but seems like Malack assumed taht the LG would prevail and he should be trying to find his own way through

Tarquin explicitly says that won't happen until Malack realizes they've fled.


the captain of the CPPD and Samantha were pointless side characters, even if they didnt die theyd never show up again so giving them a meaningful death is pointless

Rich, and the forums, disagree with you. Samantha was considered a major, recurring villainess by the majority of people and there as a lot of shock when Rich killed her off. He discusses this and the reasons for it in NCftPB.


and Roys death was pretty obvious by the time he decided to jump onto a dragon to fight Xykon 1v1

Incorrect. Roy was foreshadowed to SURVIVE due to the 'booty talisman.'