Belkar vs. Malak : The betting window is open

[pendell]

868 shows a likely confrontation between Malak and Belkar, so maybe it's time to open up the pool: Who's going to win , and in how many rounds?

I put 200 zorkmids on Belkar in ... 5 rounds. I assume he'll get initiative and possibly even surprise. Given this is Belkar, I'll wager he won't hesitate more than a few microseconds before getting all stabbity.

Once in melee range, he should be able to fizzle any of Malaks' really destructive attack spells. So barring some plot shield or whatever, I think Belkar should win this one.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Shred-Bot]

Since frail health/special diet strongly suggests negative con modifier, Malack may very well blow all his concentration checks.

However, Belkar's will save is also quite bad thanks to his ability score penalty, so if anything targeting will doesn't fizzle... he loses.

So I bet 200 Hylian Rupees on Malack in three, via hold person.

[rgrekejin]

Even if they do fight (which they might not), I don't think either one of them is going to kill the other. So, I guess I bet "draw".

[Snails]

Will save effect will be the win. 5 Quatloos on the reptile.

[RaggedAngel]

I'm going to put three dragon eggs, a ring of power, and a bit of string on a nonviolent resolution to the conflict.

A girl can dream, right?

[Ghosty]

What Snails said. Given the warning Malack has, why wouldn't he be the one getting the benefit of surprise over Belkar? It's been a while since "Meet Me in St. Louis," and maybe Belkar's character growth arc has improved his Will score, but I think this fight will be as easy as a Bestow Curse--Quickened Hold Person combo for Malack. Belkar's probably harder to hit with a touch attack than Nale was though.

If Belkar can soak up the first few Will-based 'save or be knocked out' attacks, then the fight'll get interesting.

[Zubrowka74]

The fight wont happen. Malak has no interest in killing the OotS. He will use / strike a deal with Belkar against Nale.

[some guy]

Hm, I'm guessing Belkar has Favored Enemy (humanoids: reptilian) with at least a +4 bonus and with 6 attacks per round that can really add up.
I'm also guessing Malack has a good concentration check (he's seems like the quiet, contemplative kind), and Belkar's will save is quite bad.
I'm also thinking that if Belkar wins initiative he will directly start attacking, but if Malack wins initiave there will be a chance Malack will try for a peaceful solution and Belkar attacking anyway. So, I'm thinking there's a high chance of Belkar landing the first blow.
However, I'm putting 27 pounds of saffron, 3 oxen and 42 square feet of silk on Malack.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Hm, I'm guessing Belkar has Favored Enemy (humanoids: reptilian) with at least a +4 bonus and with 6 attacks per round that can really add up.
Hah! Good point.

Maybe...

This is where we find out that Malack is distantly related to Yukyuk...

[pendell]

Hm, I'm guessing Belkar has Favored Enemy (humanoids: reptilian) with at least a +4 bonus and with 6 attacks per round that can really add up.
I'm also guessing Malack has a good concentration check (he's seems like the quiet, contemplative kind), and Belkar's will save is quite bad.
I'm also thinking that if Belkar wins initiative he will directly start attacking, but if Malack wins initiave there will be a chance Malack will try for a peaceful solution and Belkar attacking anyway. So, I'm thinking there's a high chance of Belkar landing the first blow.
However, I'm putting 27 pounds of saffron, 3 oxen and 42 square feet of silk on Malack.

Given the cool bets, I'm going to increase my bet on Belkar to 15 cubic meters of unobtanium and 3 draws from a Deck of Many Things. Just because I can.



three dragon eggs


What color? The question is important for whether I will simply use the eggs for experiments or wait until they hatch, then sell them on the slave market.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[Ashtagon]

I bet 200 quatloos they come to an arrangement.

[theinsulabot]

I am gonna take one of xykon's longshot bets. 12 grandfather clocks and one hat on malak by way of destruction, followed by him getting disintegrated by V.

[Karoht]

If Belkar gets the drop, my money is on him.
My guess is Malak will Hold Person, and they might have a chat before something happens. This assumes that Belkar does not get the drop on him.

[Sunken Valley]

Who says there will be a fight? Malack's alignment has been deliberately unclear. Maybe they'll ally.

[Kish]

I don't get where Malack's alignment comes in. If he was about to run into Durkon in the hallway, I'd understand that point, but.

He'll ally with Belkar because he's good and...so is Belkar?
He'll ally with Belkar because, being evil, he will...turn against Tarquin?
He'll ally with Belkar because he's secretly Chaotic and has just been waiting for a proper Chaotic Evil potential ally to come along, and it's Belkar's lucky day, he got there before Xykon did?

[Vinsfeld]

Given the title of this strip, maybe if they fight, Belkar will go into barbarian rage mode, getting +2 on will saves. Maybe that will be enough to save him time enough to kill (or incapacitate) Malak.

So I bet 20 gils on Belkar. Although, I don't really want them to fight.

[gerryq]

Except... wasn't there some kind of prophesy regarding Belkar's imminent demise?

By Bayes Theorem, that ups Malak's chances considerably.

[Felyndiira]

I side with gerryq. The oracle's prediction of Belkar - and the fact that Malak is a high-leveld cleric capable of killing someone - factored in, there's a good likelihood that the halfling may no longer need to file with the IRS.

In fact, I am so sure about it, I will bet...this bet.

[theinsulabot]

hey, what are the odds that belkar either gets into a scrap with malak and survives, or somehow evades combat, but then walks into a deathtrap because his spot is so crappy he flubs the roll.

considering belkar's lack of a spot check being a running gag throughout the comic, it would be like belkar's last joke!

[Querzis]

...Malack in One Round. Belkar doesnt have his weapons out, if anything Malack should be the one to get a surprise round not him (though honestly, I dont really see why either of them would get one) and its Belkar. He has no reason to get in a rage (not that a +2 would make such a difference) and his will score is so abysmal he could very well not make the save on a 19. For crying out loud, Malack even got the quickened version of the spell if the first hold person doesnt work! You guys remember Thog being taken out by Durkon in one spell? Pure melee fighter like Thog or Belkar should stay the hell away from cleric at all times. Malack might just as well decide to do a save or die spells which Belkar would most likely fail.

So yeah, I'll bet my Black Armor and the Doomhammer for Malack in 1 rounds. Belkar doesnt stand a chance in a straight up fight.

Mind you, thats only if either Belkar or Malack attack as soon as they see each others, right now they're just bumping into one another, they dont have much reason to fight...although that never stopped Belkar before.

[JSSheridan]

These two find V and the three of them team up to survive the dungeon.

[SterlingAvenger]

50 baked from scrap cookies of the winner choice, that Malak gets the upper hand, V interrupts and stuff happens but Belkar is still still deader than Xykon.

[Starbuck_II]

Even better, I bet 400 Chincilla souls, a taco, and a pretzel that Malak kills Belkar but also revives him so Belkar lives.

[Xacal]

I'll go for a long shot...
Malack and Belkar both kill each other, and then Durkon refuses to raise Belkar due to his (possibly highly suspect) role in Malack's death.

[rewinn]

Ten Buckazoids say Mr. Scruffy intervenes at a critical juncture to keep Malack from finishing off Held Belkar ...

... if Belkar does get Malack into low-hit point territory, the Big M simply Word of Recalls away!

[Sedgewood]

Belkar is a multiclassed ranger/barbarian with an ability score penalty. His will save is all but non-existent. Malak is high enough level to survive at least a couple rounds of stabbing, and we know he has the quicken spell feat. If this is a duel to the death, Belkar has the losing hand.

Personally though, I don't see it going that way. Malak has no idea what happened to any of the others, and he has no animosity toward the Order himself. He's not going to murder Belkar out of hand unless something happens to provoke his wrath.

[Tragak]

He's not going to murder Belkar out of hand unless something happens to provoke his wrath.

Something like: Belkar?

[Crusher]

No surprise, which is a little surprising in a few ways. Belkar apparently detected Malak via his Spot which is horrendous and I assume his Listen is nearly as bad. His Smell (if it were a skill) is pretty good, however, which even with the corpses I'd have thought would have let him notice that the person coming was a lizardfolk rather than an elf.

Additionally, while Malack doesn't seem like the sort to go cross-class to pick up Listen or Spot, he's presumably got a great WIS. As a result, I'd have thought he'd have been the one to spot Belkar (or at least that someone was coming) yet he seems oblivious. In fact, Malack looks surprisingly unconcerned given the circumstances. I think he's got parley with the OotS on his mind.

So, I'm going to bet the Brooklyn Bridge (sold to me this morning by a trustworthy looking gentleman), a case of girl scout cookies and the head of John the Baptist on mutual surprise, then Belkar wins initiative. Attempts to carve the lizard up (and I think if Belkar had a true surprise round he could do it easily. I bet it'd take him at most two rounds of melee to drop Malack, and possibly as few as 1 if he was Raging) but he's got to draw his weapons, giving Malack a chance to get off a Quickened Hold Person, ending the fight.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

The contents of this ordinary-looking sack on Malak winning, but not killing Belkar.


Consider the four options - Belkar wins and kills Malak, Belkar wins and spares Malak, Malak wins and kills Belkar, Malak wins and spares Belkar.

Belkar wins and kills Malak is unlikely for plot armor reasons; Malak is an interesting character, but he hasn't *done* anything yet. So, he won't die until he's better explored as a character.

Belkar wins and spares Malak; Yeah. That'll happen. *sarcastic face*

Malak wins and kills Belkar; unlikely, but better than any of the above. Belkar is probably gonna die sometime, but it's either going to be a lot more random or a lot less meaningless. As of now, everyone's predicting a fight, with a possibility on Belkar dying... so, that's the one thing that won't happen.

Malak wins and spares Belkar; Ding ding, we have a winner. Malak doesn't seem to be into killing for the sake of killing, and "Belkar" is "Useful Pawn" spelled backwards. Plus, by the rules... high level caster. vs. ranger without a will save.

Actually, most likely thing is "None of the above", but I don't think we should be allowed to bet on that without specifics.

[yuffiek]

1) Malak is rather frail (low Con, low Str), is relatively unarmored (probably wearing Robes of Protection of some sort, and he does have some natural armor, but it's not the heavy armor typical of clerics), and while his staff is magical, it's not a great weapon.

2) Malak has been playing the smart villain game with Tarquin for a LOOONG time. He knows when to fight, when to bluff and when to run.

3) He wants to deal with Durkon himself, out of professional courtesy, which means he's likely optimized his spells for dealing with with a heavily armored, slow, but competent melee fighter, NOT the fast bundle of pointy dual-wielding death that is Belkar.

Malak's biggest guns are probably Blasphemy, Disintegrate and/or Destruction, followed by Harm/Quickened IMW.

If it devolves into a fight, which is likely, Malak's only chance of living is to get the first shot in or fire off Word of Recall.

I would however love the irony of Malak casting Blasphemy, having Belkar totally unaffected, but it kills Mr. Scruffles.

Cue <<HALFLING SMASH!!!!>>

[MesiDoomstalker]

I'd like to point out a few things before I place my bet. First: Belkar passed a Listen check. Thats right, passed. A listen. Check. That will factor in to my reasoning as it seems luck is on his side (arbitrary, I know bear with me). Now, looking at how Malack is positioned, it seems he heard Belkar too. This isn't too surprising, Belkar doesn't seem to be whispering or hiding his presence at all. However, looking at his body position, it seems he is deliberately hiding behind the corner to conceal his identity till the last possible second. No part of his body is past the shadow line.

These things in mind, I'm placing 1,000,000 Poke, a bike voucher and a Master Ball on Malack to disable Belkar, go to leave then get mauled, possibly into unconsciousness, by Mr. Scruffy. Concerned for his will search out for Blackwing as a source of food. Of course V will find Mr. Scruffy and may be able to retrace to Belkar's unconscious body and maybe even the Order.

[nonamearisto]

Do keep in mind that Belkar isn't expecting a fight. Malack might be, but Belkar, at the very least, will not be able to have the advantage of surprise. As for who wins/lives/dies, I honestly cannot make a prediction.

[Querzis]

If it devolves into a fight, which is likely, Malak's only chance of living is to get the first shot in or fire off Word of Recall.

So you apparently believe that Belkar can drop Malak in one round. Cause Malak once again only need one round and if you seriously think a cleric, ANY cleric of Malak level doesnt have Hold Person prepared and wont automatically go back to that spell once a melee guy he'd prefer to capture attack him for no reason, then you never played a cleric.

Malak only need one round. His Con, Strength or melee skills are all utterly irrelevant.

And before anyone says «yeah but you're strictly going with D&D rules here, OOTS dont follow those closely» no I'm not. If I was purely following D&D rules, Belkar would have lost litterally all his important fights in the comic. His build is the most crappy build you can possibly make, he should be doing almost no damage whatsoever. But whats important is that it was already established in the comic that belkar has a really crappy will save and we already saw what happen in the comic when a guy with a really crappy will save go up against a spellcaster. Belkar was once defeated by Nale in One round by a level 1 spell for crying out loud!

[Ozfer]

I'll bet all my lembas bread and crunchable birdses on Malack immobilizing Belkar and striking a deal with him.

[Thrillhouse]

My money's on Malack. Also, side-note--have Malack and Belkar ever spoken to each other directly?

[yuffiek]

So you apparently believe that Belkar can drop Malak in one round. Cause Malak once again only need one round and if you seriously think a cleric, ANY cleric of Malak level doesnt have Hold Person prepared and wont automatically go back to that spell once a melee guy he'd prefer to capture attack him for no reason, then you never played a cleric.

Malak only need one round. His Con, Strength or melee skills are all utterly irrelevant.


I didn't say Belkar could drop Malak in one round. I said Malak needs to get the first shot off. Whatever that shot is, Malak is only going to get ONE of them, because the Belkster isn't going to give him a chance to fire off a second spell.

[Gift Jeraff]

I bet a realistic amount of actual currency on V interrupting the fight.

[Querzis]

I didn't say Belkar could drop Malak in one round. I said Malak needs to get the first shot off. Whatever that shot is, Malak is only going to get ONE of them, because the Belkster isn't going to give him a chance to fire off a second spell.

...How exactly is he supposed to stop him from doing whatever the hell he want? Grappling him? Belkar aint much of a grappler. At this level, Belkar need minimum 3 rounds to drop even a guy with low con like Malak. Malak only need one and Belkar has nothing to stop him from casting a spell, at this level succeeding a concentration check is ridiculously easy, especially since Belkar isnt a two-handed weapon fighter like Roy, he rely on speed not single attack damage so his aoe should be pretty crappy. Regardless of Malak con, hes gonna succeed unless he didnt max concentration (and if he didnt, then he shoudnt be a cleric cause that wisdom score must be abysmal.)

And thats, once again, without even counting his quickened spell. Malak win in One Round. Betting all the gold in Orgrimmar on it (like Garrosh is gonna stop me).

[Thrillhouse]

Wait. We have have to factor Mr. Scruffy into this, and his well-documented ability to disrupt spellcasters...

[Crusher]

Well, why are we so sure Belkar couldn't drop Malack in one round?

Lets look at the Belkster. According to the Class and Level Geekery thread, Belkar is level 16, has a STR between 14-18 and is wielding a pair of unspecified magical daggers.

We'll take a low end look and a high end look.

Low End
6 attacks/round (daggers averaging 2/hit beacuse he's unlucky) and we'll say only 4 hit
14 STR
+3 daggers (hard to imagine a level 16 character using anything worse under non-extraordinary circumstances)
no rage

That gives us 2 (dagger) + 2 (STR) + 3 (Magic) = 7 per swing. Assuming 4 hits, we've got 4 x 7 = 28 damage. So 28 damage/round is pretty much the floor for Belkar's offense output. Now lets be a little more generous.

High End
6 attacks/round (daggers averaging 3/hit because he's lucky) and lets say all 6 hit
18 STR
+5 daggers (entirely reasonable for a level 16 character to have a pair of +5 weapons, but we won't make them flaming or anything because they've never been shown as such)
Favored Enemy (I hadn't noticed Rangers get a +2 to Listen and Spot checks against a Favored Enemy, perhaps explaining why he noticed Malack, even if he didn't know it was a Favored Enemy, assuming Lizardfolk are one)
Raging

So now we're looking at 3 (dagger) + 4 (STR) + 5 (Magic) + 2 (Favored Enemy) + 2 (Raging) = 16/swing. 16 * 6 (swings) = 96 damage in one round. *BOOM*

Personally, I think a middle case is more likely and that's likely to be closer to the best case scenario than the worst case. Something like 16 STR/Raging/+4 weapon/no Favored Enemy/2.5 per roll seems likely, and that gives us 11.5/swing. Belkar's total +Hit is going to be quite high and I have trouble seeing him not hit Malack at least 5 times unless Malack is extraordinarily well armored (which he doesn't appear to be).

The middle case gives us 11.5/swing * 5 swings = 57.5 damage/round. Belkar doesn't hit as hard as Roy, but even with his crappy build he's still a pretty high level character and can bring some pain. I suspect that's in the right ballpark for killing Malack.

Lets think about Malack's HP for a second.

Class and Level Geekery has his level pegged at 11+ which isn't super helpful because I'm pretty sure he's higher than 11. They peg Tarquin as being 17+. This requires more assumptions, but I personally think Tarquin is somewhere between 17-19. Higher than OotS but not quite Epic. Lets say he's 18. If he's 18, then Malack is probably 18 as well.

The thread puts Malack's CON at 12 for racial reasons but notes that it has no evidence. Personally I agree with the other posters that its an 8. Special diet, apparently shaky health, etc point to an 8 though its entirely possible he's got something else funky going on (If we hadn't seen him in the daylight I'd be favorable to a suggestion that he's vampire and thus not have a CON score at all).

So, a level 18 Cleric with an 8 CON. He starts with 8. Now, if we go low end, we could say since he's sickly, he might have rolled low on his HP as well. If we assume he averaged a "4" and doesn't have any particular buffs running, that gives him 3 HP per level. 3 * 17 = 51 + 7 (level 1) = 58 HP. Wow, I thought it would be close, but that's closer even than I thought.

However, I suspect he's got more HP than that. Simply having survived to level 18 there's probably some survivor bias going on and he in fact probably rolled high on his HP. If we assume he averaged a "6", then he gets 5 per level. 17*5 = 85 + 7 = 92 HP, plus he's a grizzled veteran/adventurer and likely has survival gear of some sort equipped. Your guess is as good as mine, but some kind of +CON gear doesn't seem unlikely. If he's got a +2 CON item equipped, that gives him another 18 HP, bringing him up to 110.

So, it depends. If Malack has 110 HP, Belkar's not killing him in one round even in his best case scenario (well, I did forget to include crits so it might just be possible). However, even if Malack has a best case scenario for HP, Belkar is a good bet to take him out in 2 rounds in anything but his Low End scenario (unless Malack stops him with a Hold Person, or kills him outright or whatever).

[Querzis]

Lets start with the obvious here, Belkar is small so his daggers do 1d3 damage, not 1d4. Secondly, even if we assume Malak robe arent even actually armor and that he has no other bonus whatsoever to armor except dex, it is entirely possible for him to miss everything but his three first attacks (which he'd indeed have to be really unlucky to miss). And, of course, if those are magic robes which honestly, they most definitly are being a high-level adventurer and high priest of his religion, then Belkar can miss a lot more of those. We wont even get into what other magic Equipment Malack might have (especially considering how many his partner Tarquin has) but yeah, definitly magic robes. Thirdly, get that raging bonus out of there, Belkar has no reason to rage and, since we had a visual indication everytime barbarian raged in the comic, we know Belkar really doesnt do it often either.

Redo your calculations with that if you want which doesnt matter all that much since he still didnt drop him in one round in your calculations. Heres the real only way for Belkar to win this fight: he has to roll 20 on his saves twice and then hope V interupt the fight.

[Aurenthal]

My bet is on the following scenario:
They just bump into each other, greet and continue their respective ways. And I am willing to bet 3 internets, 10 cookies and a smiley face!

[Winter]

Stupid question: Who says this is only Malack and not the entire LG?

Apart from that: If Malack uses a spell that goes on will-saves, Belkar is very probably out. Not to mention basically everyone is out if Malack's Harm hits.

[SowZ]

I don't get where Malack's alignment comes in. If he was about to run into Durkon in the hallway, I'd understand that point, but.

He'll ally with Belkar because he's good and...so is Belkar?
He'll ally with Belkar because, being evil, he will...turn against Tarquin?
He'll ally with Belkar because he's secretly Chaotic and has just been waiting for a proper Chaotic Evil potential ally to come along, and it's Belkar's lucky day, he got there before Xykon did?

Uhh, Belkar is Chaotic Evil and Malack is somewhere between TN and LE?

[factotum]

Uhh, Belkar is Chaotic Evil and Malack is somewhere between TN and LE?

And why should that mean Malack will turn against his oldest friend and companion? Even if you subscribe to the opinion that evil people can't have friends (which is cobblers, IMHO), Malack is on to a good thing staying with Tarquin--I see no reason why he'd choose to give that up.

[The Succubus]

I'll go for a long shot...
Malack and Belkar both kill each other, and then Durkon refuses to raise Belkar due to his (possibly highly suspect) role in Malack's death.

Oooo, I like this theory. Not sure if I'm going to wager my silken purple sash on it but it makes for some delightful dramatic possibilities.

Hmmm. I'll wager a day and night of demonic pleasure on a brief tussle between the two which gets disrupted by Vaarsuvius. One thought does occur - am I right in thinking that Malack and Belkar have never met before?

[Mike Havran]

25 Tomes of Secrets say there won't be any damage dealt when they meet.

[Trixie]

Given the warning Malack has, why wouldn't he be the one getting the benefit of surprise over Belkar?

Failed listen check? :smallconfused:

I can count Clerics putting any points into that on fingers of Umber Hulk.


Pure melee fighter like Thog or Belkar should stay the hell away from cleric at all times. Malack might just as well decide to do a save or die spells which Belkar would most likely fail.

You're talking about your typical minmaxer PC Cleric, not OotS one. Ask Redcloak how trying to tank pure melee (Miko) worked for him. Malack seems frail, making both his HP and concentration rolls bad, not good if your enemy has flurry of attacks with ranger enemy bonuses.

Save or Die? The irony here is, is he expected to face Durkon, he has no Will targeting SoD prepared :smallamused:

Anyway, I like solution from other forum, that Malack kneels before obvious avatar of God of Death, aved by his (un)Holy presence :smallbiggrin:

[Mike Havran]

Failed listen check? :smallconfused:

I can count Clerics putting any points into that on fingers of Umber Hulk.


Belkar was speaking aloud like, three feet away from Malack's position. Even Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html) makes such checks.


Save or Die? The irony here is, is he expected to face Durkon, he has no Will targeting SoD prepared

That's quite an assumption. I think Malack is smarter than this.

[Morty]

I'm never going to cease to be amazed by people who calculate Belkar's damage using D&D rules as if it mattered.

[The Succubus]

I'm never going to cease to be amazed by people who calculate Belkar's damage using D&D rules as if it mattered.

They can sometimes serve as a guideline, especially with regards to things like initiative. But as always, story trumps rules and no-one can predict how a dice rolls in a game. =)

[Adeptus]

I'm going to put three dragon eggs, a ring of power, and a bit of string on a nonviolent resolution to the conflict.

A girl can dream, right?
The Finnish boy would like to tack along with that bet.

I don't want Belkar to die! He's more interesting than ever.

[Hopeless]

868 shows a likely confrontation between Malak and Belkar, so maybe it's time to open up the pool: Who's going to win , and in how many rounds?
I put 200 zorkmids on Belkar in ... 5 rounds. I assume he'll get initiative and possibly even surprise. Given this is Belkar, I'll wager he won't hesitate more than a few microseconds before getting all stabbity.
Once in melee range, he should be able to fizzle any of Malaks' really destructive attack spells. So barring some plot shield or whatever, I think Belkar should win this one.
Respectfully,
Brian P.

Well I'm going to go for the really long shot and say they don't end up fighting but go through a chat where Belkar admits hearing Nale killed Malak's kids and offers to deal with Nale for him if he wants.
Malak will politely refuse but Belkar leads him back to the others forcing Malak to avoid answering whether he's with Nale but will probably admit to Tarquin being nearby even if its Haley pointing that out, outside of his hearing but they'll join up temporarily allowing the order to get past that door and we learn (finally!) what happened when Nale killed his children and we get Elan feel bad for him.

I'm more wondering if they died because of V's epic spell and Malak was excluded because they were adopted and he didn't know?

What would be more shocking, Nale actually responsible and Malak forced to betray his ethics against a friend or discovering they actually died because of V?:smalleek:

[Kish]

When Vaarsuvius suggested adoption, Malack said he was concerned about "not having that, you know, special bond." That would seem to rule out his former children being adopted. (The amazing coincidence in him adopting three children all related to the same black dragon aside.)

I also don't see why Malack would respond to such an offer from Belkar with anything other than gleeful acceptance and requests that Belkar bring him Nale's skull, if Belkar made it as you propose. Malack has made no efforts to pretend that he plans on Nale surviving for much longer, and Belkar focusing his attacks on Nale rather than, say, Malack himself or Tarquin is purely win from Malack's perspective.

[factotum]

I'm more wondering if they died because of V's epic spell

That happened a couple of weeks ago. It seems pretty clear from the way this issue is discussed that Malack's children died a long time ago, probably when Nale first attempted to take over from Daddy and had to run away to the eastern continent.

Also, you don't think Malack and Tarquin might be a bit suspicious if both Tarquin's wife and Malack's children died identical unexplained deaths at exactly the same time?

[theNater]

Given all the traps around, even winning a fight could result in a fatal expenditure of resources. Thus, the smart thing to do would be to team up temporarily, if for nothing else than to have more rolls for the detection of traps. Given that they are on different sides, an agreement(whether tacit or explicit) that finding one team results in the one-sided massacre of the other person is plausible; yet it would still give each one better odds than running around this dungeon alone and cursed(for Belkar) or alone and out of healing spells(for Malack).

It all depends on how fast Malack thinks and talks. Belkar can be persuaded to work in his own long-term self-interest, but this one is complicated enough that I don't think he'll work it out on his own.

[Trixie]

Belkar was speaking aloud like, three feet away from Malack's position. Even Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html) makes such checks.

QED (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) :smallamused:


That's quite an assumption. I think Malack is smarter than this.

Last time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html) when Cleric faced Belkar :smalltongue:

[Mike Havran]

URL="http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html"]QED[/URL] :smallamused:

I think the perspective and mood of the comic has changed a bit from the days of strip #0003. Are you really expecting Malack to fail his listen the way Belkar did there?


Last time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html) when Cleric faced Belkar :smalltongue:
What exactly is your point here? I don't see it. And yes, I think Malack is smarter(wiser) than Tsukiko.

[pendell]

And thats, once again, without even counting his quickened spell. Malak win in One Round. Betting all the gold in Orgrimmar on it (like Garrosh is gonna stop me).


Are you volunteering to fetch the gold from Origammer if it takes Malak to rounds? Or is it up to us to get it from Garrosh? :smallamused:

*Ponders* Y'know that'd be a neat adventure hook. You gamble with an NPC who wagers the Macguffin of Macguffiny. Unfortunately, it's currently held by the evil cultists of doom in the temple of gruesome death. Now it's up to the party to get it if they want to collect on their bet.

----

At any rate , I don't see how alignment factors into it. Belkar has demonstrated a fine impartiality in his willingness to murder chaotic evil goblins, lawful evil hobgoblins something/something gnomes, the Oracle, and anything else that crosses his path. The only thing he hasn't tried to murder on sight is Jenny , the bard, whom he seduced.

So given V's view of Belkar being capable of only two emotions -- hate or lust -- I'm betting on hate and an instakill. The opposite possibility ... a BelkarxMalak ship ...

:smalleek::smallyuk:


Excuse me. I need some brain bleach.

*Several minutes later*.

Feel a little better now, enough so that I can talk without gibbering in mindless insanity.

At any rate, given Belkar's purpose in life is to murder as many sentient creatures and defile their corpses as he can, why WOULDN'T he try to kill Malak on sight?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Coat]

Malack will attempt to talk to Belkar: he has nothing to gain by attacking Belkar, and a chance to find out what happened to the rest of his team, and rejoin them by talking. Plus he has no actual animosity to OOtS, and as they don't know for sure he's part of Nale's team, he could figure them as the best way to find and get close to the Gate.

Belkar will attempt to murder Malack, because Belkar+no witnesses.

Malack will try to deflect the attacks, and try to talk some sense into the halfling. And fail, horribly, because he underestimates just how senseless and brutal the little stabber is.

Belkar will be just about to deliver the final slice to an defenceless pacifistic (former+potential) ally when V, full of newly discovered conscience, will walk out of the darkness, see what is happening, and paralyse, disintegrate and gust of wind Belkar.

My stake is one sense of smug self-satisfaction.

[Morty]

They can sometimes serve as a guideline, especially with regards to things like initiative. But as always, story trumps rules and no-one can predict how a dice rolls in a game. =)

We know that Belkar breaks the rules every time he sticks his daggers into someone, though. Saying that "Belkar is using a pair of daggers so he does this much damage" is rather pointless, since we know he doesn't.

[Winter]

I do not think Belkar will go to violence. He has no specific reason to outright stab Malack and he will be too surprised to act at once.

Belkar will stand a second or five and ask something silly as "What are you doing here?" and that will give Malack the time to start talking, at which point an escalation into violence has passed (at least for that moment).

[Incom]

I bet three Smash Balls that both of them will walk away from this encounter, possibly trading a couple of blows first.

If it does get serious, Malack seems to have the upper hand, but not by enough for me to wager.

[The Succubus]

So given V's view of Belkar being capable of only two emotions -- hate or lust -- I'm betting on hate and an instakill. The opposite possibility ... a BelkarxMalak ship ...

:smalleek::smallyuk:

But just imagine all the things Malak could do with that long slender tail....:smallredface::smallamused:

[Trixie]

I think the perspective and mood of the comic has changed a bit from the days of strip #0003. Are you really expecting Malack to fail his listen the way Belkar did there?

A) That was whole party, not just Belkar, B) *shrug* he might, he might not, but there are multiple precedents to people failing "obvious" checks big time.

Also, I love how Belkar trumps V and Haley in rules knowledge in this strip :P


What exactly is your point here? I don't see it. And yes, I think Malack is smarter(wiser) than Tsukiko.

Point is, unlike what people before you said, that canonically Belkar is one throw away from winning fight with almost every unarmored spellcaster? :smallwink:

Also, Malack, like Tsukiko, can't order his undead to deal with thrown cat unless he wants to tank Mummy Rot DC on his Fort saves.

[sam79]

If it comes to blows; well they are already in melee range, and I think that Belkar and Mr. Scruffy have enough speed and skill about them to prevent Malak casting a lot. A raging barabrian/ranger probably has enough damage potential against an apparently unarmoured and apparently CON-light cleric to finish him in less than a minute.

I'd bet one lizardfolk-skull based accessory on the Belkster and the Scruffinator, though in fact I expect something/someone will intervene to stop this being a fight to the death.

[Tragak]

So now we're looking at 3 (dagger) + 4 (STR) + 5 (Magic) + 2 (Favored Enemy) + 2 (Raging) = 16/swing. 16 * 6 (swings) = 96 damage in one round. *BOOM*

Actually, since Lizardfolk are in the same category as Kobolds (Humanoid: Reptillian), I imagine that the high-end estimates would have his favored enemy bonus as significantly more than +2.

[SowZ]

Belkar may miss some attacks, but his full BAB says he shouldn't miss too many. I also think he may have weapon focus, which explains why he uses two daggers, but that makes a small difference. Point being, Belkar taking out Malack in two full attacks is very reasonable. Especially with Mr. Scruffy throwing a few damage in there.

If he uses his surprise round to rage and wins initiative, Malack only needs to fail one concentration check to lose the fight.

[Shred-Bot]

At any rate, given Belkar's purpose in life is to murder as many sentient creatures and defile their corpses as he can, why WOULDN'T he try to kill Malak on sight?

He might decide that he will get to commit more murders and defile more corpses if he lets this one go. While he is an impulsive psychopath, he's not suicidal and should be able to recognize that a 1-on-1 against a character of (probably) higher level is not necessarily a worthwhile gamble. Given that he and his shoulder devils eventually decided to save Hinjo from the assassin during the battle of Azure City in order to be able to do more slaughtering in the future. And this was before his "character growth".

Of course all this depends on the Belkster having paid enough attention to recognize Malack and remember that Malack is (probably) higher level... and we all know that's not guaranteed.:smallbiggrin:

[Mike Havran]

A) That was whole party, not just Belkar, B) *shrug* he might, he might not, but there are multiple precedents to people failing "obvious" checks big time.

Also, I love how Belkar trumps V and Haley in rules knowledge in this strip :P

I don't think there are any such obvious unattempted failures except that very one strip when it was being spoofed.



Point is, unlike what people before you said, that canonically Belkar is one throw away from winning fight with almost every unarmored spellcaster? :smallwink:

Also, Malack, like Tsukiko, can't order his undead to deal with thrown cat unless he wants to tank Mummy Rot DC on his Fort saves.

Malack can kill Mr. Scruffy with death touch without much trouble.

[SowZ]

I don't think there are any such obvious unattempted failures except that very one strip when it was being spoofed.




Malack can kill Mr. Scruffy with death touch without much trouble.

He doesn't have time. Malack will likely get one spell to cast, two tops unless he uses that first spell to buy himself more time somehow.

[Querzis]

If he uses his surprise round to rage and wins initiative, Malack only needs to fail one concentration check to lose the fight.

Two things, first whats with people and thinking Belkar would get a surprise round? I mean seriously, if anyone get one, it should be Malack but I dont really expect either of them to get one, why the bloody hell would they?

Secondly, if Malak maxed concentration (and as I already pointed out, he'd have to be really dumb not to) he litteraly could succeed those con check with a 1!

Also, seriously, Belkar never raged even once in the entire comic. If he didnt rage in those two big fights earlier why the hell would he now?


He doesn't have time. Malack will likely get one spell to cast, two tops unless he uses that first spell to buy himself more time somehow.

...yes and, as I already pointed out multiple time, he really only need to cast one spell to win the fight (without even getting in his quicken spells). Unless he roll 20, theres no way Belkar is saving on Hold Person.

Once again, frigging Nale owned Belkar with only a level 1 spell. Now he might be my favorite character but I got no illusion on his fighting prowess. Belkar, a guy with virtually non-existant will save is standing right next to a cleric with all their nasty touch spells. All you can do is hope Malack goes for Hold Person instead of any save or die spell.

[Deepbluediver]

...yes and, as I already pointed out multiple time, he really only need to cast one spell to win the fight (without even getting in his quicken spells). Unless he roll 20, theres no way Belkar is saving on Hold Person.

What makes you so certain that Malak has Hold Person prepared? Characters in this comic do not always make the most "logical" choices with regards to preparation or optimization. (see V picking conjuration as a banned school)

[pendell]

*I* think Malak will try the harm + quickened moderate wounds combo that nearly killed nale.

Hold Person requires a saving throw or it fails completely. Malak has no way of knowing what Belkar's save is, or whether he has a magic item or feat specifically protecting against that. You would expect a PC to have some way to protect against any instakill or they don't reach 10th level.

If Malak gets even one of these spells off, I'm guessing there's an 80% chance that's game for Belkar right there. If he gets TWO shots, it's almost certain death. Belkar can't easily roll 20 on his will save twice.

So the way for Belkar to survive is to make sure Malak never gets a chance to cast at all.

Thus, I believe Belkar's optimal strategy is to start the fight by throwing the cat in Malak's face, fizzling his spells the same way Tsukiko was fizzled. Then, while Malak is trying to claw multiple pounds of angry feline off his face, Belkar is cutting out his intestines.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[mucco]

They start fighting, but they realize halfway that Nale would be pretty enjoyable to kill for both, so they ally. While trying to attack Nale, they are both killed by a ruthless and extremely badass show of strength by Tarquin. Then OotS goes super saiyan and while Nale runs like the chicken he is, they overcome an ally-less Tarquin, possibly with a Girard Deus Ex Machina somewhere in the middle.

And MitD. Can't forget MitD.

[Xacal]

Wait a second.
Belkar's comment in the last panel...
"No way [Roy] ever saw this one coming!"
Juxtaposing this to Roy's pre-established knowledge of Belkar's imminent death as per kobold prophecy...
Is Belkar about to fall victim to death-via-irony?

[Acanous]

When is the last time you saw a High-level cleric running around in Robes?

When he's a Cloistered Cleric, that's what.
My money's on Cloistered Cleric with DMM: Persist. Dude probably has all his buffs up, all day long. Belkar won't land a hit, and if he does, it's absorbed by regeneration and negated next round with fast healing.

Of course, this is a comic so it might just be that Malak was exceptionally unprepared today (Despite knowing he'd be going into a dungeon and having to fight high level adventurers).

I really don't see Malak dying to Belkar here, at the least.

[SowZ]

When is the last time you saw a High-level cleric running around in Robes?

When he's a Cloistered Cleric, that's what.
My money's on Cloistered Cleric with DMM: Persist. Dude probably has all his buffs up, all day long. Belkar won't land a hit, and if he does, it's absorbed by regeneration and negated next round with fast healing.

Of course, this is a comic so it might just be that Malak was exceptionally unprepared today (Despite knowing he'd be going into a dungeon and having to fight high level adventurers).

I really don't see Malak dying to Belkar here, at the least.

Belkar has pretty good accuracy. I'd think Malack's buffs won't make Belkar miss. They may, however, mitigate his attacks in some other way.

[Snails]

What makes you so certain that Malak has Hold Person prepared? Characters in this comic do not always make the most "logical" choices with regards to preparation or optimization. (see V picking conjuration as a banned school)

He has 6 or 7 2nd level spell slots and he is hunting a known party of humanoids. It is not a question of optimization. It is a question of whether we should guess that Malack will always make an anti-optimal choice.

Regardless, there are lots of interesting tricks that could win Malack the combat, Hold Person is just the brain dead obvious one. Given Malack's philosophical outlook, Dictum is highly plausible.

[sparkyinbozo]

I'd like to play the long shot and put 100 gp on Xykon showing up and taking them both.

[Querzis]

What makes you so certain that Malak has Hold Person prepared? Characters in this comic do not always make the most "logical" choices with regards to preparation or optimization. (see V picking conjuration as a banned school)

Its not a matter of optimization, its a matter of being a high-level cleric. Most of the level 2 cleric spell are crappy buffs for crying out loud, except for Hold Person and some heals what do you think he possibly could fill all his level 2 spell slot with?

Beside, I just go with hold person because I think Malak would prefer to capture Belkar. Clerics have tons of save or die spell...hell his combo he unleashed on Nale is actually nastier in a way then a save or die, Nale had to roll very close to 20 to not die against that.


Malak has no way of knowing what Belkar's save is, or whether he has a magic item or feat specifically protecting against that.

Belkar is a melee fighter, his will save is pretty much automatically his dump save. Even without Malack knowing his wisdom score or if Belkar would have decided to waste on feat on that, it would still be his dump save. You cant really expect me to believe a guy whos supposed to have as much wisdom as Malack would see a melee halfing fighting with two weapons and then would decide to target his reflex.

[ArlEammon]

Twenty Bars of Gold Pressed Latinum on the divine spell caster of a Death god.


http://imageshack.us/a/img6/9756/quark2376.jpg

[SowZ]

Its not a matter of optimization, its a matter of being a high-level cleric. Most of the level 2 cleric spell are crappy buffs for crying out loud, except for Hold Person and some heals what do you think he possibly could fill all his level 2 spell slot with?

Beside, I just go with hold person because I think Malak would prefer to capture Belkar. Clerics have tons of save or die spell...hell his combo he unleashed on Nale is actually nastier in a way then a save or die, Nale had to roll very close to 20 to not die against that.



Belkar is a melee fighter, his will save is pretty much automatically his dump save. Even without Malack knowing his wisdom score or if Belkar would have decided to waste on feat on that, it would still be his dump save. You cant really expect me to believe a guy whos supposed to have as much wisdom as Malack would see a melee halfing fighting with two weapons and then would decide to target his reflex.

As a ranger, though, he could have Wis pretty pimped out.

[Tragak]

As a ranger, though, he could have Wis pretty pimped out.

But no. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) Not really, no.

[Kish]

As a ranger, though, he could have Wis pretty pimped out.
As Querzis said,

Belkar is a melee fighter, his will save is pretty much automatically his dump save. Even without Malack knowing his wisdom score or if Belkar would have decided to waste on feat on that, it would still be his dump save.
Even if Belkar was Generic Ranger and had a Wisdom of 14 instead of one of 4, his Will save would still be his worst save, because of his class.

[daungli]

As a ranger, though, he could have Wis pretty pimped out.

no, absolutely not see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html)

[SowZ]

But no. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) Not really, no.

I'm not at all trying to argue that Belkar has a positive Wisdom mod. Context. We were talking about what Malack would assume looking at Belkar, so rangers in general. Not Belkars actual Will save.

[Acanous]

But no. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) Not really, no.

Indeed. Belkar's wisdom is provably equal to or less than 12, and no lower than 9 in total. He's gained about 6 levels since then (Give or take, they were 5-6 at the time, are around 12 now) so he could have a Wisdom score of *14* at the highest.

Being a Ranger/Barbarian, which we know for fact, and without any Prestige classing, Belkar's Base will save is +4 if 10th level, +5 if 12th. If he has Iron Will, a Robe of Resistance (Which I believe would have been mentioned, but let's allow it) and the best combination of Ranger/Barb possible to increase will save (which is actually only one barbarian level) he'd be sitting on +15.

Malak, being a high level cleric, likely has save DCs *Starting* at 14, for level 0 spells. That's if he started with NPC array stats and not counting racial mods, if any, to Wisdom.

If Malak is severely unoptimized, Belkar stands a reasonably good chance of winning that fight.

However, characters do not make it through low levels into superpowers that go nation-conquering for fun, by being poorly built and unoptimized.

I believe it should be safe to say that Belkar does not have a robe of resistance or the Iron Will feat (as they would have been previously mentioned. The Giant does not pull out powers as-needed during critical situations, he foreshadows and lampshades very well.), and I also believe he has more than a single level of Barbarian. (Probably 3.) I also do not believe he has been putting points into Wisdom at levelup. He could have a Will save as low as +4 on a lv 12 character.

IF Malak has say, an item of +Wisdom, his save DC on a lv 2 spell could be as high as 20. Optimizing for fighting humanoids, on the Enchantment school, or in many other ways a Cleric can do so, would yeild results of around 25, in a Practical op world.

The OOTs is actually a very low-op world from what we've seen, so I'm willing to assume here that Malak's save DC is 16, and that Belkar's will save is +5.

Still better odds on Malak.

[Kish]

Indeed. Belkar's wisdom is provably equal to or less than 12
Bad start. He said he has a Wisdom penalty. You don't have a penalty at 12.

(And bad continuation; his Wisdom is manifestly catastrophic, not slightly-below-average.)

[OracleofWuffing]

Yyyeah, I'm putting an unidentified somethingorother on V somehow getting involved, and all three of them simultaneously kicking the bucket. Possibly right in front of the rift, just to dramatically salt the wound.

[SowZ]

Indeed. Belkar's wisdom is provably equal to or less than 12, and no lower than 9 in total. He's gained about 6 levels since then (Give or take, they were 5-6 at the time, are around 12 now) so he could have a Wisdom score of *14* at the highest.

Being a Ranger/Barbarian, which we know for fact, and without any Prestige classing, Belkar's Base will save is +4 if 10th level, +5 if 12th. If he has Iron Will, a Robe of Resistance (Which I believe would have been mentioned, but let's allow it) and the best combination of Ranger/Barb possible to increase will save (which is actually only one barbarian level) he'd be sitting on +15.

Malak, being a high level cleric, likely has save DCs *Starting* at 14, for level 0 spells. That's if he started with NPC array stats and not counting racial mods, if any, to Wisdom.

If Malak is severely unoptimized, Belkar stands a reasonably good chance of winning that fight.

However, characters do not make it through low levels into superpowers that go nation-conquering for fun, by being poorly built and unoptimized.

I believe it should be safe to say that Belkar does not have a robe of resistance or the Iron Will feat (as they would have been previously mentioned. The Giant does not pull out powers as-needed during critical situations, he foreshadows and lampshades very well.), and I also believe he has more than a single level of Barbarian. (Probably 3.) I also do not believe he has been putting points into Wisdom at levelup. He could have a Will save as low as +4 on a lv 12 character.

IF Malak has say, an item of +Wisdom, his save DC on a lv 2 spell could be as high as 20. Optimizing for fighting humanoids, on the Enchantment school, or in many other ways a Cleric can do so, would yeild results of around 25, in a Practical op world.

The OOTs is actually a very low-op world from what we've seen, so I'm willing to assume here that Malak's save DC is 16, and that Belkar's will save is +5.

Still better odds on Malak.

Also, he can't cast ranger spells. So that is a Wisdom less than 11.

[Querzis]

I honestly find it funny that people have to refer to that strip to guess Belkar wisdom. Belkar is litterally a walking example of incredibly bad wisdom. But hey, I know people sometimes have a hard time with the three mental stats but him being clever doesnt means he doesnt have absolutely no common sense. Anyway, his will save is +4 maximum.

And putting Malak dc at 16 is incredibly low, even without buffs or magic equipment, just from his wis alone at his level he should be more around 17 (hes definitly not putting those bonus ability point in con) and getting feats, buffs and magic items to increase your dc as a cleric is less OP and more what you're expected to do. What else exactly do you think he bought as magic equipment? Hes quite obviously a pure spellcasting cleric, I highly doubt we're gonna see him attack anyone with his staff.

So yeah, once again, I do not expect belkar to make a will save on anything but a 20.

[Acanous]

I honestly find it funny that people have to refer to that strip to guess Belkar wisdom. Belkar is litterally a walking example of incredibly bad wisdom. But hey, I know people sometimes have a hard time with the three mental stats but him being clever doesnt means he doesnt have absolutely no common sense. Anyway, his will save is +4 maximum.

And putting Malak dc at 16 is incredibly low, even without buffs or magic equipment, just from his wis alone at his level he should be more around 17 (hes definitly not putting those bonus ability point in con) and getting feats, buffs and magic items to increase your dc as a cleric is less OP and more what you're expected to do. What else exactly do you think he bought as magic equipment? Hes quite obviously a pure spellcasting cleric, I highly doubt we're gonna see him attack anyone with his staff.

So yeah, once again, I do not expect belkar to make a will save on anything but a 20.

Erm, with a +4 against DC17, he'd need a 13 to pass, not a 20 o.0

[coineineagh]

50goth on both of them shrieking like little girls, running away and cowering in a corner until Serini shows up!

[allenw]

Wait a second.
Belkar's comment in the last panel...
"No way [Roy] ever saw this one coming!"
Juxtaposing this to Roy's pre-established knowledge of Belkar's imminent death as per kobold prophecy...
Is Belkar about to fall victim to death-via-irony?

This. Very much this.
My bet: I'll wager *two* heads of John the Baptist* that Malack will kill Belkar, and then animate him as some form of Undead; thus fulfilling the "last breath ever" prophesy, and replacing one of Malack's children, while keeping Belkar around to be funny.
I will then nobly refrain from saying "I *told* you so at least a year ago." :smalltongue:

*The smaller one is of him as a child. (http://www.sjc.ox.ac.uk/3775/The%20Head%20of%20St%20John%20the%20Baptist.pdf.do wnload)

[Querzis]

Erm, with a +4 against DC17, he'd need a 13 to pass, not a 20 o.0

...so could you tell me whats the point of quoting my entire comment if you didnt bother reading all of it? Or did you just read the numbers and skipped the rest? As I said, 17 is purely from his normal wis alone, no buffs, magic items, feat or anything. And thinking that a pure spellcaster cleric who doesnt even have armor isnt built toward, you know, actual spellcasting is just silly. At his level, he can easely get himself at almost 30.

And thats not even counting the fact that he can easely just decide to use a level 6 or 7 spell, once again, hold person is just cause I think he'd wanna capture Belkar. I really dont know why everyone who reply to me is focusing purely on the spell I chosed, havent you ever played a cleric? He got lots of spells to win fight in one rounds.

[Charmy]

I think Querzis got his point across pretty iron-clad like 10 posts ago.

I personally do not see them coming to blows. It does not seem in character for Malack to act aggressively without provocation, and Belkar doesn't have any animosity towards Malack either. As much as he loves killing reptiles, I think he also knows a powerful cleric when he sees one.

If the giant surprises me and they did fight for some reason then Malack should win this battle nearly 100% of the time following any kind of standard D&D rules. High level clerics are insanely OP, vs. a truly pathetic melee build with no redeeming qualities.

Sorry belkster, but all my money is on the scaled one.

[Trixie]

Two things, first whats with people and thinking Belkar would get a surprise round? I mean seriously, if anyone get one, it should be Malack but I dont really expect either of them to get one, why the bloody hell would they?

Because Belkar is obviously aware of Malack approaching, while we have no indication opposite is true? :smallconfused:


Secondly, if Malak maxed concentration (and as I already pointed out, he'd have to be really dumb not to) he litteraly could succeed those con check with a 1!

Yes, Cleric with potential Con penalty can easily save DC 25-30 with 15-17 skill ranks on 1. Wait, what?? :smallconfused:


Also, seriously, Belkar never raged even once in the entire comic. If he didnt rage in those two big fights earlier why the hell would he now?

If only he did it fighting spellcasters multiple (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) times already (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html)... :smallamused:


...yes and, as I already pointed out multiple time, he really only need to cast one spell to win the fight (without even getting in his quicken spells). Unless he roll 20, theres no way Belkar is saving on Hold Person.

You argue against Malack being unoptimized. So, according to you, good high level Cleric fighting high level enemy he knows literally nothing about...

Opens fight with 2nd level spell? :smallconfused:

That's extremely good way to get killed due to dozens of ways melee fighters can resist HP at that point, blowing your only chance to do any real damage, unoptimized as it gets and requires colossal doze of Deus Ex Machina first. Ring of Freedom, anyone?


Belkar, a guy with virtually non-existant will save is standing right next to a cleric with all their nasty touch spells.

Touch spell. Exactly. Belkar gets his size modifier, Dex modifier, and deflection bonus. Malack's dex is most likely dump stat. I guess he succeeds on 1, again, like with that DC 30 concentration? :smallconfused:


*I* think Malak will try the harm + quickened moderate wounds combo that nearly killed nale.

If Malak gets even one of these spells off, I'm guessing there's an 80% chance that's game for Belkar right there.

Touch spells, like above. Malack potentially has 45-75% chance of failing to connect them at all.


When is the last time you saw a High-level cleric running around in Robes?

By that standard, only one Cleric in OotS would be not a Cloistered Cleric, again, these are not your overoptimized CoDzillas.


Its not a matter of optimization, its a matter of being a high-level cleric. Most of the level 2 cleric spell are crappy buffs for crying out loud, except for Hold Person and some heals what do you think he possibly could fill all his level 2 spell slot with?

Being high level clerics also means you forget about using anything below level 5-8 in combat, and yes, you devote your 2nd levels to crappy buffs as it's the most efficient way to support your party at that point.

[sam79]

It seems clear that Belkar doesn't stand much of a chance if Malak gets a spell off. But my question is; how likely is that?

Bear in mind that most of my playing experience was in 2nd Ed, in which (if I remember rightly), 1) if you took damage before you cast your spell, you lost your spell and 2) casting clerics tended to take their actions way after dagger-armed DEX-high fighting types (and cats, come to think of it), and therefore a caster in melee range tended to be in big trouble.

I know that in 3.5, 1) works differently, and I think there may be a check you can make to save your spell, based on CON (?). But if Malak has a low CON, and Belkar (+Mr Scruffy) can dish out a respectable amount of damage before Malak's turn each round... my question is, how difficult would Malak's check be?

[Tragak]

So, as far as I can tell, the most likely possibilities are:

1) They don't attack each other (for whatever reason)
2) Whoever goes first wins in round 1 (Malack would have good spells vs. Belkar's terrible to average will saves, but Belkar has lots of attacks, a combat-capable animal companion, and presumably a huge bonus against reptiles)

Does this sound about right?

[lio45]

The contents of this ordinary-looking sack on Malak winning, but not killing Belkar.


Consider the four options - Belkar wins and kills Malak, Belkar wins and spares Malak, Malak wins and kills Belkar, Malak wins and spares Belkar.

Belkar wins and kills Malak is unlikely for plot armor reasons; Malak is an interesting character, but he hasn't *done* anything yet. So, he won't die until he's better explored as a character.

Belkar wins and spares Malak; Yeah. That'll happen. *sarcastic face*

Malak wins and kills Belkar; unlikely, but better than any of the above. Belkar is probably gonna die sometime, but it's either going to be a lot more random or a lot less meaningless. As of now, everyone's predicting a fight, with a possibility on Belkar dying... so, that's the one thing that won't happen.

Malak wins and spares Belkar; Ding ding, we have a winner. Malak doesn't seem to be into killing for the sake of killing, and "Belkar" is "Useful Pawn" spelled backwards. Plus, by the rules... high level caster. vs. ranger without a will save.

Actually, most likely thing is "None of the above", but I don't think we should be allowed to bet on that without specifics.


Your approach, IMO, is the right way of looking at it... we all fully know (or should know, anyway) that Rich isn't going to bother with the numbers and skills that might or might not be on Belkar and Malack's vaguely-defined respective character sheets. In this particular case, the two opposing fighters are close enough in strength that it's basically guaranteed that the actual outcome is going to be purely a matter of plot.

I see more than four options, though. Option #5 = no fight. Option #6 = fight ends with a tie (i.e. fight stops before anyone is defeated).


I'm betting my 20 acres of oceanfront (Sea of Tranquillity) lunar real estate (with deed) that the fighting turns out to be only a skirmish, and stops before anyone's defeated.

[Deepbluediver]

Your approach, IMO, is the right way of looking at it... we all fully know (or should know, anyway) that Rich isn't going to bother with the numbers and skills that might or might not be on Belkar and Malack's vaguely-defined respective character sheets. In this particular case, the two opposing fighters are close enough in strength that it's basically guaranteed that the actual outcome is going to be purely a matter of plot.

I see more than four options, though. Option #5 = no fight. Option #6 = fight ends with a tie (i.e. fight stops before anyone is defeated).


I'm betting my 20 acres of oceanfront (Sea of Tranquillity) lunar real estate (with deed) that the fighting turns out to be only a skirmish, and stops before anyone's defeated.

So what you're saying is, rather than arguing the numbers, we need to be taking bets on who has better plot armor. :smallbiggrin:
(if it comes down to a fight at all)

[Querzis]

Because Belkar is obviously aware of Malack approaching, while we have no indication opposite is true? :smallconfused:

And he think its V, not an enemy. You think hes gonna set up an ambush for V? And really Belkar is talking loudly 5 step away from him, just because he look unconcerned doesnt mean hes not aware of it.


Yes, Cleric with potential Con penalty can easily save DC 25-30 with 15-17 skill ranks on 1. Wait, what?? :smallconfused:

Funny how someone already did the math for that and you didnt even bother checking it. Without the rage or the 1d4 dagger he thought Belkar had, belkar would do around 11 damage on average (and I think he was being too generous on the magic dagger but hey whatever, I'll give you 11). So it would be a dc of 21 on average since you're apparently bad at math. Hes a two weapon fighter, his aoe is crap, he rely on speed. Meanwhile, I have absolutely no idea how you'd get to 15-17 for a guy whos minimum level is 16. With a -1 to con (might be -2 but whatever) he'd get 18 if hes only level 16. So yah, I would be indeed wrong here, he'd get it on a 3, not on a 1. If hes around Tarquin level though (which is quite likely), yeah, on a frigging 1. Aint that great.


If only he did it fighting spellcasters multiple (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html) times already (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html)... :smallamused:

Considering the fact that he didnt spend 10 minutes being useless afterwards, I doubt either were anything else then him being angry. Go look at Thog. THATS a frigging rage. And if he really use rage randomly without us ever getting a visual warning on it then guess what: He already use his rage for the day on Tarquin when he was kicking their ass! Hes not a high level barbarian, he only got one of those a day.

And nevermind what I said earlier about Nale owning him once with a spell, he did that twice. Its just that the second time Belkar coudnt hear him. Forgot about that one.


You argue against Malack being unoptimized. So, according to you, good high level Cleric fighting high level enemy he knows literally nothing about...

Opens fight with 2nd level spell? :smallconfused:

That's extremely good way to get killed due to dozens of ways melee fighters can resist HP at that point, blowing your only chance to do any real damage, unoptimized as it gets and requires colossal doze of Deus Ex Machina first. Ring of Freedom, anyone?

Once again, not sure why everyone get stuck on which spell I chosed but yeah, I do think he open with a spell that target will and I think he wanna capture Belkar so Hold person. And the whole «blowing your chance to do any real damage» thing prove once again you never played a cleric. Cleric dont do damage. They do save or die. Then again, Malack combo he did on Nale is pretty much a save or die, just more inventive. Nale really must have rolled really close to 20 to live through that one.

And one way is not dozens of way. Seriously, thats all you could come up with, one ring out of the hundred a melee fighter could get at this point? Belkar is in a party with a cleric, why the bloody hell would he get a ring to replicate spells he already has access to?


Touch spell. Exactly. Belkar gets his size modifier, Dex modifier, and deflection bonus. Malack's dex is most likely dump stat. I guess he succeeds on 1, again, like with that DC 30 concentration? :smallconfused:

...Hold person is not a touch spell so that whole point is moot. Also, only skills can succeed on a 1, not attacks. And we know that his con and str are both in the negative and you seriously think he dumped dex too? Must have had the crappiest roll at character creation ever.


Touch spells, like above. Malack potentially has 45-75% chance of failing to connect them at all.

Huh no he doesnt. Could do the math for it cause I'm sure its a lot lower then that but as I said, that whole point is moot anyway so who cares.


By that standard, only one Cleric in OotS would be not a Cloistered Cleric, again, these are not your overoptimized CoDzillas.

Redcloak is wearing armor, its just black. Same thing for the cleric who healed Belkar. I do think the High Priest of the Twelves Gods wasnt but hey, minor character and all that.


Being high level clerics also means you forget about using anything below level 5-8 in combat, and yes, you devote your 2nd levels to crappy buffs as it's the most efficient way to support your party at that point.

Yeah no its not. Those buffs dont last long enough (unless, of course, you're cloistered) and you really dont have enough of them to please everybody, if you wanna buff the party, you'd use the Mass version of the spell. And nobody, not just cleric but Wizard or sorcerer, forget Hold Person, its litterally the best way to capture somebody without damaging them or risking to kill them.

[stevem]

In a Belkar v. Malak fight, Malak wins.

On the other hand, I don't think they'll slug it out. Malak has a problem, Nale, and a suspicion that Tarquin won't allow him his revenge. Belkar is an excellent resource to direct against Nale.

If Melkar wanted to ensure Belkar's loyalty, he'll kill him and then raise him as an undead. Which would be interesting.

[Koo Rehtorb]

You know... I could potentially see Malack beating up Belkar and then sparing him as insurance for killing Nale. Perhaps with a Geas or something.

[Snails]

You know... I could potentially see Malack beating up Belkar and then sparing him as insurance for killing Nale. Perhaps with a Geas or something.

Kudos to Koo for offering a non-obvious answer that makes sense.

(Even if I would personally bet against for reasons that are complicated.)

[veti]

You know... I could potentially see Malack beating up Belkar and then sparing him as insurance for killing Nale. Perhaps with a Geas or something.

I like this one so much, I'm going to back it. 200 Ivalice Gil on "Malack recruits Belkie to scrag Nale".

I'll further predict that Tarquin then kills Belkar, because his ego can't stand the thought of someone ganking one of his kids without his permission.

[Xelbiuj]

50,000 kooblars on them chasing each other Benny Hill/Scooby Doo style.

Would be lulzie as hell. Do it Rich!

That would be most hilarious way to have Xykon show up.
Belkar chases Malack into 1 exit.
Then Malack is chasing Belkar out of another.
After they swap a bit and, Xykon could be chasing them both.

[Snails]

I like this one so much, I'm going to back it. 200 Ivalice Gil on "Malack recruits Belkie to scrag Nale".

I'll further predict that Tarquin then kills Belkar, because his ego can't stand the thought of someone ganking one of his kids without his permission.

I would bet on Malack using Belkar as an Ace Up His Sleeve against Nale. Oh, yes.

[Winter]

I would bet on Malack using Belkar as an Ace Up His Sleeve against Nale. Oh, yes.

So, one Geas is incoming? I find that option interesting. If it goes against Nale, Belkar would not even object.

[Snails]

So, one Geas is incoming? I find that option interesting. If it goes against Nale, Belkar would not even object.

There exist possibilities other than Geas. I am inclined to believe that Malack is more subtle than to simply view Belkar as a mammal to be killed, when other possibilities exist.

Tarquin will not directly betray his implied promise, but he might indirectly arrange things such that murdering his son is not an available option to Malack. Plus it is inevitable that Nale and Sabine will move against him. Having a secret ally is very valuable when most of your cards are on the table, and there are three people plotting against you.

Speculation: The next strip will cut away from Belkar. Eventually Belkar just shows up and we do not get to find out (for now) what ensued between Malack and Belkar.

[pendell]

Hmm ... Tarquin and Malak discussed Belkar in 821 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html). Tangentially, but it may give some insight into Malak's view of Belkar.

Also, when Tarquin told Malak leaving Nal alive was a matter of business (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html), am I the only one who smells a player advantage code (http://www.kodt.erikbouchard.com/pac.htm) ? "Business" could be a code word meaning "Work with me for now, we'll betray him later."

Or something like.

It works for players against DM. No reason someone who read the evil overlord list might have some codes for use in talking to fellow adventurers when hostiles or clients* are within hearing range.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

* Given Tarquin's history, the two are probably the same set. -- BDP.

[veti]

Also, when Tarquin told Malak leaving Nal alive was a matter of business (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html), am I the only one who smells a player advantage code (http://www.kodt.erikbouchard.com/pac.htm) ? "Business" could be a code word meaning "Work with me for now, we'll betray him later."

That's hardly a 'code', I'd call that the surface meaning. "Business" implies "we need him right now, but just as soon as that's dealt with, he's all yours". As I see it, that's the only reason Malack accepted it, and Nale understood it exactly the same way (as, of course, Tarquin intended that he should - he's using fear to keep Nale "honest").

I further suspect that Tarquin has no intention of just handing Nale over to Malack when their 'business' is done, but intends to give Nale every opportunity to make a safe getaway. I presume that Malack, knowing Tarquin, knows that too. Only Nale, having the wisdom score of a rabid rhino, is likely to be in the dark as to that layer of betrayal.

[Yendor]

So what is that, a first-round TKO?

[Barsoom]

Pwned like a boss.

[Starbuck_II]

Pwned like a boss.

Technically, Belkar still got first hit in, it just was with his body not his weapon. :smallbiggrin:

[pendell]

Yes. Which means the bet "no damage" is lost, as cosmetic damage was done to Malak if no other.

Congratulations to all who bet on the scaled one, but if it comes to a tie-breaker, I would say Querzis was the winner, as he called not only the winner but the exact number of rounds. You won:


200 zorkmids
200 Hylian Rupees
5 Quatloos
three dragon eggs
a ring of power
a bit of string
27 pounds of saffron
3 oxen
42 square feet of silk
15 cubic meters of unobtanium
3 draws from a Deck of Many Things
12 grandfather clocks
one hat on malak
"my money" (however much that is -- Karoht, post 13)
this bet. (Felyndira post 18)
Black Armor
the Doomhammer
50 baked from scrap cookies of the winner choice
400 Chincilla souls
a taco
a pretzel
the Brooklyn Bridge (sold to me this morning by a trustworthy looking gentleman)
a case of girl scout cookies
the head of John the Baptist
The contents of this ordinary-looking sack
1,000,000 Poke
a bike voucher
a Master Ball
all my lembas bread and crunchable birdses
My money (Thrillhouse)
a realistic amount of actual currency
25 Tomes of Secrets
all the gold in Orgrimmar
one sense of smug self-satisfaction
one lizardfolk-skull based accessory
100 gp
Twenty Bars of Gold Pressed Latinum
unidentified somethingorother
*two* heads of John the Baptist*
"all my money"
20 acres of oceanfront (Sea of Tranquillity) lunar real estate (with deed)
200 Ivalice Gil
50,000 kooblars



Congratulations!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Shred-Bot]

*tears up betting ticket and stomps off, muttering incoherently about the stupid washed-up halfling who couldn't even last 3 rounds screwing up my quinela* :smalltongue:

[Querzis]

Holy crap someone bet a Master Ball? I'm gonna go and try it on Deathwing! I also really like the cookies and I do feel quite a bit of sense of smug self-satisfaction so thanks for that! Even had the right spell (yup, feel so frigging smug right now).

[Starbuck_II]

Holy crap someone bet a Master Ball? I'm gonna go and try it on Deathwing! I also really like the cookies and I do feel quite a bit of sense of smug self-satisfaction so thanks for that! Even had the right spell (yup, feel so frigging smug right now).

What are your plans for the Chincilla souls if I may ask, they are not easy to come by.

[Querzis]

What are your plans for the Chincilla souls if I may ask, they are not easy to come by.

Well I dont have any idea right now but my good friend Vol'jin is really into Voodoo so I'm sure we'll find some use out of them...still dont get what I'm supposed to do with two heads of John the Baptist though.

[Gitman00]

What are your plans for the Chincilla souls if I may ask, they are not easy to come by.

I'm more interested in the 27 pounds of saffron. That stuff is like $16 per gram. :smalleek:

[oppyu]

So... what geniuses put money on Belkar? Because that absolutely did not go your way.

[SlyJohnny]

Gotta say, even though I totally called this from the start, and think you Belkar-backers need to lern2d&d, it's not necessarily over yet. His Harm-quickened-inflict combo provoke AoO's, and a proper coup-de-grace is a full round action.

Malack is discounting Mr Scruffy at his own mortal peril.

[pendell]

So... what geniuses put money on Belkar? Because that absolutely did not go your way.

*I* did, and I started the thread :). My thinking was that the sexy shoeless demigod of war would fight this more like the way he fought Tsukiko, which went his way far more. He's demonstrated a fair amount of cunning (against Miko) and the ability to ruthlessly butcher all kinds of opponents (repeatedly).

So my bet was less on the collection of stats that make up the character and more on the character himself. It was a mistaken bet.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Winter]

Belkar is good when he has time to prepare and evaluate the situation. He had the first with Miko and the second with Tsukiko.
He sucks when he is surprised or does not stop to think in the seconds he has. All he can do is "charge right in", which is what he did here.

Technically, he should have at least a decent Fort Save so has some chances to make those, but against everything that requires a will-save he has lost. Thus, he's expected to do very badly vs. any caster.

[pendell]

So far as I can tell, *three* heads of John the Baptist were bet. How does that work? Was John the Baptist a hydra? Or do you cut off his head, cast resurrect/regenerate to get him alive and a new head, saw it off again, repeat until you've got an adequate number of heads?

Or do you clone three heads of john the baptist in an organ farm?

Or do you go into a many-worlds multiverse, go into three different timelines, kill three different john the baptists while leaving the other timelines intact?

Same many-worlds, but wait until JB has lost his head, then knick it from Salome? Or just buy it from her? After all, what does a teenage girl want with a head anyway?

Or am I over-thinking this?

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[Acanous]

...so could you tell me whats the point of quoting my entire comment if you didnt bother reading all of it? Or did you just read the numbers and skipped the rest? As I said, 17 is purely from his normal wis alone, no buffs, magic items, feat or anything.

As I said earlier, Rich's writing style lampshades magic items of importance. If Malak was carrying around a bunch of +Wis/Plus DC items, there'd have been a panel about it when he was showing Durkon around. Something like the two of them passing a Magic Item display. "What's all that then, lad?" "Oh, just relics from my adventuring days. Sometimes you need more than faith alone to get your point across."

Then, when we saw Malak with Tarquin later, he'd be wearing one of the items (Or more) visibly, to show it's in effect (The giant usually draws items on characters [aside from their standard appearance gear] only if they're important in some way)
That, paired with the relative un-optimized state of the OotSverse leads me to believe that no, Malak was not rocking a >20 DC on his lv 2 spell.

To be perfectly honest, it's HARD to get your DCs above 20 by lv 12, unless you're focusing on one spell, or one spell school. Hold Person is not a spell most would blow 2-4 feats improving.

Conversely, this makes it more likely in the OotSverse XD

[Lorsa]

It's not over yet! And I don't think either of them is going to win, either Malak will change his mind and not kill Belkar or Belkar will get free or someone will intervene and stop their fight prematurely. As Elan would say, the fight is not dramatic enough story-wise for a so important character as Belkar to die (and Malak still has his unresolved issues with Nale). So my bet is on a draw!

[Felyndiira]

Congratulations to all who bet on the scaled one, but if it comes to a tie-breaker, I would say Querzis was the winner, as he called not only the winner but the exact number of rounds. You won:

this bet. (Felyndira post 18)

Objection! Some of us betted against Belkar, ya know :smalltongue:. The only thing Icould have gotten wrong is Belkar dying, and whether he dies or lives is still up in the air (as I didn't specify that he dies next strip). Therefore, I shall not handing over my bet just because someone is more specific.

* Steals 'this bet' back from Querzis *

[pendell]

As I said earlier, Rich's writing style lampshades magic items of importance.

Like when he lampshaded Nale's Wand of enervation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html)?

Honestly, that was the only time in the history of OOTS I've been tempted to cry foul at the author. 'Cause it seems like Nale just pulled that magic item out of his ....

Likewise the magic item Xykon used to protect himself from the effects of his own meteor swarm in 653 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html)

Also, in Start of Darkness, Xykon once again pulled a completely not-lampshaded magic item out of nowhere.

So it appears that magic items are concealed by characters as an ace up their sleeve until such time as they are needed. In the isolated instance of Nale's wand, to the point that watching this strip feels like the old Adam West Batman movies, where they always escaped from the most horrifying death trap because they happened to have just the right gadget on the utility belts, which were then never mentioned again.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Winter]

'Cause it seems like Nale just pulled that magic item out of his ....

Yes, he did. But I fail to see the problem with that. Nale surprised the Order with a new magic item that strongly turns the tide in his favour, that is good for narrative diversity and to keep us our toes and keep it also believeable Nale won that encounter.

The only reason to cry foul is if you apply the D&D rules and ponder where such an item comes from. But those rules do not apply 1:1 to OotS and it is long established that the PCs as well as Team Evil uses spells, powers and items once in a while that would outright break any gaming sessions.
I wonder why you are confuddled/annoyed if Nale is doing that as well (pulling this wand from his... portable hole)? It's within everything we've seen for 100s of strips. I think the power Xykon has shown and Familicide made clear that what happens here might be based on the D&D rules but the limitations and the high-end balance are vastly different.

[Kish]

Actual shown magic items are very light. Magic items with sources are significantly lighter (where did Belkar get magic daggers? Where did Haley get the +3 bow Crystal sundered?). And yet, I'm pretty sure Haley would be freaking out if the Order was as far below the Wealth By Level guidelines as would be indicated if they only had the items they're established as having.

I think it's best to assume, unless otherwise indicated, that the Order drips with magic items just like a completely standard ~level 15 D&D adventuring party, the vast majority of which we'll see when and if they come up and not otherwise.

[Snails]

Power. Is. Power.

If it is not a Wand of Enervation it could easily be some other item or spell or feat. If it is not a Ring of Immunity from Fire, it could easily be some other item or spell.

From the perspective of a D&D Player sitting at the table, the important question is never "Where in the name Thor's balls did he get that item?" The important questions are actually (1) What Power level is this opponent relative to me? (2) What portion of my opponent's total resources are put where?

For Nale, he prized item appears to be a nasty wand. For Xykon one of his prized possessions seems to be an Immunity to Fire item.

These are reasonable options for NPCs of their respective power levels.

It is in the nature of the play of D&D that the powerful NPC will always have one or two surprises like this. One does not bother to question how this could happen. One simply uses this information to help make guesses on where the opponent's weak points lie.

[Gift Jeraff]

What exactly is the difference between Nale's Wand of Enervation and Nale knowing Dimension Door a few strips later?

[Winter]

@Kish: I think (correct me when I am wrong, pendell) the issue is not with Nale having any magic item, but this specific wand which seems very powerful.

Yet, given Nale knows the adventurer group that is his #1 annoyance runs around with two casters (and Elan gets spells as well) it really seems legit he prepares (no matter in what way) to defeat those on his own.

[pendell]

@Kish: I think (correct me when I am wrong, pendell) the issue is not with Nale having any magic item, but this specific wand which seems very powerful.


Not this particular item, no. Just that it would have been nice if it had been established before it was revealed. Chekhov's gun must be shown in the mantlepiece in act 1 before it's fired in act IV. It wouldn't even have to have been this particular wand -- just some clue that he had learned from his previous battles with OOTS and was taking appropriate precautions.

Ironically, I didn't have any complaints about Dimension Door because Nale clearly established earlier in-comic that he valued his own skin over anything else (remember the "how to kill my brother" plan which evaluate the chance of Thog's demise as acceptable , but considered Nale's much lower risk unacceptable). Further , he demonstrated his willingness to prepare escape spells such as Expeditious Retreat earlier in comic, so Dimension Door was a logical choice once he levelled up.

I also wouldn't have had a complaint if this had been a needlessly-overcomplicated Nale scheme, as he's demonstrated the ability to overprepare greatly during his plans. Nale putting together an improvised ambush is out of character for him, I would expect him to make a few mistakes. Not execute as flawlessly as if this was planned for months.

Still, I can't complain much because ultimately the wand didn't change the outcome of the battle. It's just that Nale lost to Malak with the wand when previously the outcome would have been lost to Durkon and Elan. I'd have much stronger grounds for complaint if the wand had a major impact on the story , turning a defeat into victory. Delaying defeat by one or two rounds while giving Malak a chance to show off his skillz is a far less grievous offense.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Snails]

From a D&D Player's POV, I do not see how Wand of Enervation is particularly powerful. It is a fun way to hassle PCs and force the heroes to come up with a Plan B, but usually the PCs can beat the crap out of bad guys with 3rd level spells or lower just fine. The 5th and 6th level spells are nice to have, but I am not exactly helpless if those are all taken away (unless it is late in the day and I have been in many fights already).

[Karoht]

Objection! Some of us betted against Belkar, ya know :smalltongue:. The only thing Icould have gotten wrong is Belkar dying, and whether he dies or lives is still up in the air (as I didn't specify that he dies next strip). Therefore, I shall not handing over my bet just because someone is more specific.
* Steals 'this bet' back from Querzis *It isn't up in the air though. Belkar clearly fell and hit the ground once that Hold Person immobilized him.
:smallwink:

[pendell]

Anyways back to the action. I assume Malak will attempt to coup de grace next round after another free action monologue. This will open up an attack of opportunity from Mr. Scruffy.

That does ... what exactly? I assume Malack can kill a housecat in a very few rounds, not enough for Belkar to recover from being held.

So unless Vaarsuvius wanders in while Malack is distracted, this doesn't bode well for sexy shoeless.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[SowZ]

Not this particular item, no. Just that it would have been nice if it had been established before it was revealed. Chekhov's gun must be shown in the mantlepiece in act 1 before it's fired in act IV. It wouldn't even have to have been this particular wand -- just some clue that he had learned from his previous battles with OOTS and was taking appropriate precautions.

Ironically, I didn't have any complaints about Dimension Door because Nale clearly established earlier in-comic that he valued his own skin over anything else (remember the "how to kill my brother" plan which evaluate the chance of Thog's demise as acceptable , but considered Nale's much lower risk unacceptable). Further , he demonstrated his willingness to prepare escape spells such as Expeditious Retreat earlier in comic, so Dimension Door was a logical choice once he levelled up.

I also wouldn't have had a complaint if this had been a needlessly-overcomplicated Nale scheme, as he's demonstrated the ability to overprepare greatly during his plans. Nale putting together an improvised ambush is out of character for him, I would expect him to make a few mistakes. Not execute as flawlessly as if this was planned for months.

Still, I can't complain much because ultimately the wand didn't change the outcome of the battle. It's just that Nale lost to Malak with the wand when previously the outcome would have been lost to Durkon and Elan. I'd have much stronger grounds for complaint if the wand had a major impact on the story , turning a defeat into victory. Delaying defeat by one or two rounds while giving Malak a chance to show off his skillz is a far less grievous offense.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Chekhovs Gun doesn't really apply, because this isn't that plot relevant. Foreshadowing that Nale would use a magic item that would moderately inconvenience one of the more important, (but non-main,) characters 100 strips earlier would have been overkill.

If Nale somehow had a magic glove that cast touch of Death and he kills Durkon with it, sure, that would be something requiring foreshadowing. This? Not so much.

[SoC175]

Actual shown magic items are very light. Magic items with sources are significantly lighter (where did Belkar get magic daggers? Where did Haley get the +3 bow Crystal sundered?). And yet, I'm pretty sure Haley would be freaking out if the Order was as far below the Wealth By Level guidelines as would be indicated if they only had the items they're established as having.

I think it's best to assume, unless otherwise indicated, that the Order drips with magic items just like a completely standard ~level 15 D&D adventuring party, the vast majority of which we'll see when and if they come up and not otherwise.Indeed. In one of the bonus strips Belkar mentions in a sub-clause that he has just recently thrown his last +1 ring of protection on the trash because the item has become too low level for him.

The order can be assumed to be driping with all passive magic items that never do anything active and thus do not need to be mentioned and are just standard for high level PCs.

[Lorsa]

Anyways back to the action. I assume Malak will attempt to coup de grace next round after another free action monologue. This will open up an attack of opportunity from Mr. Scruffy.

That does ... what exactly? I assume Malack can kill a housecat in a very few rounds, not enough for Belkar to recover from being held.

So unless Vaarsuvius wanders in while Malack is distracted, this doesn't bode well for sexy shoeless.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Well, since Mr. Scruffy is no longer a regular housecat but a Ranger's animal companion and not just any ranger either he can probably do something at least! Considering Belkar's rather high ranger level that "housecat" should be able to do some serios scratching.

[Snails]

From a dramatic point of view, SowZ is correct, one does not need Chekhov's gun foreshadowing for a neat trick that only sort of worked.

The real point of this non-event was to show Durkon dramatically failing to use Mass Death Ward in a manner that would be both non-boring and non-lethal.

From a dramatic overanalysis POV, THAT is a hint that Mass Death Ward will be valuable in a significant battle...we just do not yet know if Durkon will succeed the second time, or fail a second time only to succeed when it really matters. Duhn duhn duhn DUHN!!!

[Mike Havran]

Well, since Mr. Scruffy is no longer a regular housecat but a Ranger's animal companion and not just any ranger either he can probably do something at least! Considering Belkar's rather high ranger level that "housecat" should be able to do some serios scratching.

Mr. Scruffy will have 4 bonus HD at best. I think Malack eats such opponents for breakfast.

[WindStruck]

At this stage in the fight it's like a paradox.

Belkar has like a 1 in a million chance of winning. But by convention that means he WILL succeed! :smalltongue:

Either that or someone else (probably V) will end up changing things. Also, how formidable do you guys think Belkar would be with items that cast freedom of movement and prevented mental compulsion?

[Snails]

Mr. Scruffy will have 4 bonus HD at best. I think Malack eats such opponents for breakfast.

Possibly literally.

[SowZ]

From a dramatic point of view, SowZ is correct, one does not need Chekhov's gun foreshadowing for a neat trick that only sort of worked.

The real point of this non-event was to show Durkon dramatically failing to use Mass Death Ward in a manner that would be both non-boring and non-lethal.

From a dramatic overanalysis POV, THAT is a hint that Mass Death Ward will be valuable in a significant battle...we just do not yet know if Durkon will succeed the second time, or fail a second time only to succeed when it really matters. Duhn duhn duhn DUHN!!!

Good point, since that very same skirmish foreshadowed another spell Durkon was unable to cast which did come into play beautifully later in a style befitting of Chekhov's gun. (Holy Word.)

[Shred-Bot]

Mr. Scruffy will have 4 bonus HD at best. I think Malack eats such opponents for breakfast.


Possibly literally.

Special diet, huh? New crackpot theory: Malack is Alf!

In all seriousness, I could see Belkar getting some kind of circumstance bonus to his will save and escape the holding if Malack tries to kill and/or eat the Scruffinator. Other than that, even with his bonus HD I don't see Mr. Scruffy having a huge impact on the situation.

[Koo Rehtorb]

I bet Malack kills Belkar then Belkar becomes the god of halflings and fights a duel to the death with the Snarl then the comic ends.

[Tragak]

Wow. That wasn't on the list. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0870.html)

[Crusher]

The thread puts Malack's CON at 12 for racial reasons but notes that it has no evidence. Personally I agree with the other posters that its an 8. Special diet, apparently shaky health, etc point to an 8 though its entirely possible he's got something else funky going on (If we hadn't seen him in the daylight I'd be favorable to a suggestion that he's vampire and thus not have a CON score at all).



BUTBUTBUTBUTBUT we've SEEN him in the daylight! He CAN'T be a vampire! Right?

Wish I had included that paragraph in my "bet" post instead of the my Belkar's damage potential post.

So, what kind of vampire could he be? He's literally ignoring Mr Scruffy, so he's got some DR.

[Tragak]

He's literally ignoring Mr Scruffy, so he's got some DR.

Yeah, specifically 10

[Dr. Gamera]

Don't pay out those bets yet -- Belkar can still make a Will save and survive, and versus Hold Person, he gets a Will save each round.

Although, being Belkar, he might need to roll a 20.

[Mike Havran]

Don't pay out those bets yet -- Belkar can still make a Will save and survive, and versus Hold Person, he gets a Will save each round.

Although, being Belkar, he might need to roll a 20.

Won't he get some negative circumstance bonus penalty to his Will save for being distracted because blood is being sucked out of his head?

[Deepbluediver]

BUTBUTBUTBUTBUT we've SEEN him in the daylight! He CAN'T be a vampire! Right?

So, what kind of vampire could he be? He's literally ignoring Mr Scruffy, so he's got some DR.

Some of the other threads mention something called a "Vampire Lord", which can apparently walk about in Sunlight just fine.

(well, not "just fine", they are somewhat weakened, but they don't burst into dust).

[pendell]

870's title is "Death in the Family". I think that's a pretty clear indication that Malkath is bringing belkar into his "family" via death. I'd be very surprised if Belkar is alive the next time we see him. He'll be .. something else. Something like Xykon. All the homicidal tendancies of his worst natured restrained by none of the flesh-and-blood associations or feelings that he had as a living halfling.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Winter]

870's title is "Death in the Family". I think that's a pretty clear indication that Malkath is bringing belkar into his "family" via death. I'd be very surprised if Belkar is alive the next time we see him. He'll be .. something else. Something like Xykon. All the homicidal tendancies of his worst natured restrained by none of the flesh-and-blood associations or feelings that he had as a living halfling.

I'm very eager to see if he snaps just like Xykon due to this. Xykon lost his last strain of humany in becoming undead and I think it is going to the same with Belkar (which Malack might not like at all).

I find it very interesting (have for a long time) that Belkar and Xykon are basically the same character, class and race aside.

[zql]

1) we didn't see him dead yet.
2) guys who spout corny lines like, "I have someone worth fighting for" always win for some weird reason.

[Deepbluediver]

870's title is "Death in the Family". I think that's a pretty clear indication that Malkath is bringing belkar into his "family" via death. I'd be very surprised if Belkar is alive the next time we see him. He'll be .. something else. Something like Xykon. All the homicidal tendancies of his worst natured restrained by none of the flesh-and-blood associations or feelings that he had as a living halfling.

Really? I was much more under the impression that the "family" he was referring to was the OotS. And that Belkar might make a return to said family, but now with some nice new abilities.

Spoiling this bit, because it talks about the origin stories.
Also, Xykon has pretty much always been evil, but I think it got worse after he died, because he lost many of the senses he used to favor (taste, touch, etc) and he has to enjoy things more vicariously. Belkar, on the other hand, was ALWAYS a murder-happy psycho. Perhaps turning undead will give him some new prespective on life.

Assuming Malak leaves him at least a shred of free-will, do you think it's reasonable that having experienced death first-hand, Belkar would not be so eager to visit it upon others?

Maybe if Mr. Scruffy doesn't like the new (and improved!) undead Beklar, he'll have a formative character moment about what some one does to everyone around them.

[Crusher]

I'm very eager to see if he snaps just like Xykon due to this. Xykon lost his last strain of humany in becoming undead and I think it is going to the same with Belkar (which Malack might not like at all).

I find it very interesting (have for a long time) that Belkar and Xykon are basically the same character, class and race aside.

Edit - I don't know how to do the *Spoiler* thing, so I'll just do my best.

*SPOILER BELOW*

Xykon didn't lose the last shred of his humanity by turning into a lich (not that he had much left, or, heck, even to start with). In fact, turning into a lich didn't actually seem to affect Xykon much at all (if anything, the physical boosts and loss of arthritis, etc pain gave him a little more joie de vive).

What stripped Xykon of his little remaining humanity was the loss of a his ability to taste coffee. He was totally fine with the undead thing until he realized he had lost the one thing that actually mattered to him, tasting coffee.

It was indeed a result of becoming a lich, but its a little too indirect (like the Oracle claiming that Belkar killed Roy by giving him the Ring of Jumping. Sure, it was an important part of the process, but Xykon's Meteor Swarm and the fall damage was a *much* larger and more direct cause).

[Kish]

Spoilers are done like this.

[pendell]

I'm very eager to see if he snaps just like Xykon due to this. Xykon lost his last strain of humany in becoming undead and I think it is going to the same with Belkar (which Malack might not like at all).

I find it very interesting (have for a long time) that Belkar and Xykon are basically the same character, class and race aside.


Indeed. It wouldn't surprise me to find that the first thing Belkar does in unlife is to murder Mr. Scruffy, thereby demonstrating that he has lost the last shreds of whatever was not murderous, psychotic, crazed killer in his makeup. Readers of Start of Darkness will note that's pretty much what Xykon did when he found that he'd lost something that was very important to him.



Xykon didn't lose the last shred of his humanity by turning into a lich (not that he had much left, or, heck, even to start with). In fact, turning into a lich didn't actually seem to affect Xykon much at all (if anything, the physical boosts and loss of arthritis, etc pain gave him a little more joie de vive).

What stripped Xykon of his little remaining humanity was the loss of a his ability to taste coffee. He was totally fine with the undead thing until he realized he had lost the one thing that actually mattered to him, tasting coffee.


It wasn't just that, it was that Xykon took pleasure in sensual things, things he no longer had access to as an undead. He doesn't seem to have taken an interest in the things undead have taken as substitutes in other literature (chess, painting, arts) and takes pleasure solely from the death and pain experienced by living beings. It may be that, due to the negative energy powering him, there may be a physical reaction to the pain of others. such a reaction, if it existed at all, would be very addictive and it would require great self-control to do without such "jolts" for the sake of living creatures, which the undead as a rule see no more as fellow beings than the living see them. Xykon never demonstrated any desire to have such self-control.

So he devotes the rest of his existence to getting pleasure from the pain of others.

If Belkar is able to follow some other path in any way at all, it would be serious character development, and make him inalterably different not only from Xykon but from any other villain. But I am not hopeful. The sparks of good were never especially bright in Belkar and it would be a miracle if they survived his conversion to undead monstrosity specifically designed to feed on the living.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Mike Havran]

Indeed. It wouldn't surprise me to find that the first thing Belkar does in unlife is to murder Mr. Scruffy, thereby demonstrating that he has lost the last shreds of whatever was not murderous, psychotic, crazed killer in his makeup.

It would surprise me quite a bit. Xykon is the One and Only, and I don't believe Belkar will go his way. Perhaps Malack will try to teach him how to restrain his urge to commit Evil - and Belkar will have to listen to him, at least initially.

[Winter]

In fact, turning into a lich didn't actually seem to affect Xykon much at all (if anything, the physical boosts and loss of arthritis, etc pain gave him a little more joie de vive).

What stripped Xykon of his little remaining humanity was the loss of a his ability to taste coffee. He was totally fine with the undead thing until he realized he had lost the one thing that actually mattered to him, tasting coffee.

It was very direct.

The coffee-scene is a direct reminder to us what it means to be an Undead Ambomination. It was not about the thing itself, but about what it represents.
That was the moment when Xykon actually realised himself what he DID lose (being alife and a being "as it is supposed to be") and nothing he'll ever gain will make up for that.

It's a very, very common Vampire-trope as well. Belkar is kept "a living being" by the things that do tie him to life. Food. Sex. Booze.
He has lost all of that now. He is in an undead. He'll react similar as Xykon did to that.

Undead (vampires and lichs) are monsters and the difference is that they are not alive anymore. Life is everything that matters and death is supposed to be the end. Cheat that and the universe will stick right in your face what you missed.
Up until Twilight that was what brought the "Horror" into Undeath.

[hamishspence]

Twilight was far from the first to romanticise vampires. Before that there was Interview with the Vampire, and before that there were many more.

[ThePhantasm]

Belkar's reaction to being a vampire will probably be "this sucks."



:smalltongue:

[Winter]

Oh, and Malack the old speech-faker: Did you see how his Undead-Baloon is not wobbly anymore?

[Winter]

Twilight was far from the first to romanticise vampires. Before that there was Interview with the Vampire, and before that there were many more.

Sorry for attacking your Twilight. But the point is the stuff above that line, not that silly afterthought-line.

(And Anne Rice is soooo 90s anway :smallbiggrin:)

[hamishspence]

Never read it actually.

The point being that the horror of undeath has been downplayed for a while.

Didn't Bram Stoker first do it with his Carmilla story?

[Winter]

The point being that the horror of undeath has been downplayed for a while.

I think more that is the part that tends to get ignored. Undead and Vampires are cool for black-wearing, insecure teenagers. Why deal with the entire "actually, they are bad and not cool at all" if they are so free, cool, and sexy?

The World of Darkness has to explain very thoroughly that while the characters you play are pretty cool and powerful... they are still evil and wrong. Because a large part of the audience simply wants to ignore that part.

[Kish]

Carmilla had a standard evil, predatory vampire. But yes, lots of works have done morally-complex vampires; Twilight is one of the most recent and among the worst, largely because the author seems to have imbibed enough older works on the subject to conclude that "good vampire=vampire who doesn't drink human blood," and written an entire family of officially-incredibly-good vampires who are terrible people in every regard except that they don't actually kill. Much.

[Lamech]

special diet strongly suggests negative con modifier, Malack may very well blow all his concentration checks.
About that con score.:smallamused:

Also Belkar's screwed. He just got two (or more?) neg energy levels and is currently grappled and getting his con sucked away. He's not going to overpower the lizard. I do believe he is very soon going to take his last breath.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

What stripped Xykon of his little remaining humanity was the loss of a his ability to taste coffee. He was totally fine with the undead thing until he realized he had lost the one thing that actually mattered to him, tasting coffee.

Belkar's a cook.

[Karoht]

BUTBUTBUTBUTBUT we've SEEN him in the daylight! He CAN'T be a vampire! Right?
Penultimate Penumbra is a 2nd or 3rd level spell in Pathfinder, I'm certain that there is a 3.5 equivilant.

Either that, or he has an invisible umbrella :smalltongue:

[Shred-Bot]

About that con score.:smallamused:

Also Belkar's screwed. He just got two (or more?) neg energy levels and is currently grappled and getting his con sucked away. He's not going to overpower the lizard. I do believe he is very soon going to take his last breath.

Yeah... turns out my "negative modifier" wasn't accurate. (He would use Cha for a concentration check now, right?)

And given size modifiers, vampire strength bonuses and the pre-bite level drain, I agree that he's probably not escaping that grapple (barring V/Team Evil bursting in) even if he does make the will save to un-hold himself.

[Winter]

At the moment I do not really feel like speculating, as it seems to be wrong at the moment.

But how about this:

Malack is not going to pick "anyone" as his new child, he'll pick someone he trusts and calls "friend". Belkar is just a random schmuck to him, while Durkon is a friend. He could keep him while at the very same time fulfill his promise to Tarquin to kill the dwarf.

Thus: Malack will kill Belkar now, but drain & vampirise Durkon instead.

[Hamiltonz]

In the comic thread I predicted thus:

Truly awesome comic. I'm (nearly) speechless.

I predict that there will be a final battle for Belkar. Malak will utter words along the lines of, "If you [fail] to strike me down...". Belkar will fulfill the last remaining part of the prophecy and no longer be a part of this world.

Assuming Malak has been a vampire for more than 100 years and has turned 10 or more vampires himself then we are heading for a grudge match between him and some other ultimate undead baddy. I can't wait. The word "epic" seems too pale and inadequate for the battle that I'm imaging in my head, right now.

Not only will Belkar die but that last act will turn Malak into a Vampire Lord.

Edit: I forgot the bet. One legendary whiffle bat of justice (This adamantium mace menaces with spikes of dwarfen bone)

[Aldrakan]

Malack is not going to pick "anyone" as his new child, he'll pick someone he trusts and calls "friend". Belkar is just a random schmuck to him, while Durkon is a friend.

I think it's also worth pointing out that Belkar and Malack show such a massive dissimilarity in attitude, habits, pleasures and so on that I find it hard to imagine Malack being able to stand him for more than a few hours. I'd expect there to be something of a trial period before he decides to retain a new possible "child" forever.

[Lamech]

Thus: Malack will kill Belkar now, but drain & vampirise Durkon instead.OotPC SpoilerWhen Durkon returns to his homeland he will cause much destruction or something to that effect. Durkon is going to return their while dead. Durkon is coming back as an undead. Malack has said he is finishing the dwarf himself. This is the end for Durkon-the-living-dwarf.