Why Aren't Psions Tier 1? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Rektro

2013-02-07, 04:16 PM

So I've been DMing for maybe 6 - 8 months now, playing 3.5e originally and we'd add some books here and there and eventually found the dyslexic studios character sheets, which I said that any book on there was fair game to play. One of my players picked up the psion because of his obsession with using Psychic powers and his odd fantasies about Jean Grey (xmen).

Anyways, Whenever the party encounters ANYTHING, it seems like the psion has a solution. In fact, we started calling it a "i've got a power for that" (apple joke). But its becoming old now, and i've grown tired of making campaigns where psions can just telekenetically do all sorts of mumbo jumbo to avoid everything just because.

His psion also has really high constitution so he's far from frail, and i'd say 8/10 times he rolls a 20, on anyones dice, hes just extremely, and irritatingly lucky, but thats not the main concern. I'm more concerned with maybe we're playing them wrong or something.

TL;DR
--> Why are Psions not in Tier 1? Why aren't they anywhere near as good as wizards? Why do they seem to be able to do everything and anything? What makes them really bad?

Second, Shorter question: Should Psions ever be mingled with the core classes? Ever? It seems like they should not.

andromax

2013-02-07, 04:17 PM

Quite simply because they only have a limited number of spells powers known.

Why aren't they anywhere near as good as wizards? Why do they seem to be able to do everything and anything? What makes them really bad?

Why aren't they anywhere near as good as wizards?

You're getting the distinction between T1 and T2 confused. Psions can break the game as thoroughly as wizards can, just not in every conceivable instance.

Why do they seem to be able to do everything and anything?

They are limited, and it sounds like you need to figure out this Psions weaknesses because he will have some.

What makes them really bad?

Get ahold of his power list and post it up here and we can help you.

Second, Shorter question: Should Psions ever be mingled with the core classes? Ever? It seems like they should not.
Absolutely.. if you allow wizards, clerics, druids, sorcs, or whatever then psions fit in nicely.

I'm guessing that your troubles arent the fault of the Psion, and are more to do with a rather clever player.

Mithril Leaf

2013-02-07, 04:20 PM

Rektro

2013-02-07, 04:20 PM

Quite simply because they only have a limited number of spells powers known.

It still feels like their number of powers known is a large amount. and feels larger than that of sorcerers. Theyve got crazy good blasting powers. can pump up the DC on powers that shouldnt ever need to be pumped. healing abilities, and miscellaneous things for no good reason.

Rektro

2013-02-07, 04:23 PM

Are you properly limiting the number of power points they can spend per power? Also making sure they have the proper number of powers known? They are in fact the definition of tier two as is. Remember that a well played and optimized tier two is better than a modestly played tier one.

When we first started I trusted he knew what he was doing with the psion because the last class he played was a wizard. Which in my oppinion they are similar. Not the same, but similar. after I saw the first time he wasnt keeping track of his powers I had corrected that and said that these were the only ones he could cast. and he understood. but he still has a crazy amount of power points. Somewhere around 150 power points at level 11. due to I believe 24-26~ Intelligence.

I try to keep track of him and the only thing I've found effective was to throw some psion killers in the campaign, which just made him find new ways to be effective.

foolofsound

2013-02-07, 04:23 PM

Rektro

2013-02-07, 04:28 PM

What is the party composition outside of the Psion? If you're using mostly or all non-casters, the Psion is going to dominate pretty much every situation for which he has an applicable power.

Last it was...

Psion lvl 10
Cleric lvl 10
Barbarian lvl 10
Beguiler lvl 9
Duskblade lvl 10
Occasionally my buddy came over and he was a Paladin. Lvl 9.

And the psion was hitting twice as hard as the barbarian, healing himself for far more than the cleric ever could, crowd controlling better than the beguiler, and had more health than all of him due to his crazy 24 in Constitution.

I made all of them roll for their stats and he got 2 18's and a 16. Yes I watched his rolls. everyone else had around 1 18. and alright stats everywhere else.

Mithril Leaf

2013-02-07, 04:28 PM

Chilingsworth

2013-02-07, 04:32 PM

Also, on asking if they should be mixed with core classes:

Doesn't the fact that they're in the SRD, and not listed as a "varriant rule" make them a core class?:smallconfused:

Rektro

2013-02-07, 04:35 PM

Ashtagon

2013-02-07, 04:35 PM

When we first started I trusted he knew what he was doing with the psion because the last class he played was a wizard. Which in my oppinion they are similar. Not the same, but similar. after I saw the first time he wasnt keeping track of his powers I had corrected that and said that these were the only ones he could cast. and he understood. but he still has a crazy amount of power points. Somewhere around 150 power points at level 11. due to I believe 24-26~ Intelligence.

I try to keep track of him and the only thing I've found effective was to throw some psion killers in the campaign, which just made him find new ways to be effective.

Psion level 11 has a base of 106 power points. With 26 Intelligence, that's an extra 44 power points, for 150 total. I'm kind of curious how he boosted it that high by that level though.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm

Power Point Limit

Some powers allow you to spend more than their base cost to achieve an improved effect, or augment the power. The maximum number of points you can spend on a power (for any reason) is equal to your manifester level.

Hope you've been enforcing this one. It's the one most people tend to miss, because the rule is hidden away.

Also, double check his powers known. 22 powers of max 6th level doesn't mean they can all be 6th level. It's still got to be a valid build at every intermediate level. Since tehre;'s no retraining, that means, at best (higher level powers could be swapped for lower level ones):

level 1: 3
level 2: 5
level 3: 5/2
level 4: 5/4
level 5: 5/4/2
level 6: 5/4/4
level 7: 5/4/4/2
level 8: 5/4/4/4
level 9: 5/4/4/4/2
level 10: 5/4/4/4/4
level 11: 5/4/4/4/4/1

Finally, note which of the six specialities he chose. That affects his class skills list, and also prevents access to some of the more interesting psionic powers. Make sure he isn't choosing powers he should be able to access.

Khosan

2013-02-07, 04:36 PM

Also, on asking if they should be mixed with core classes:

Doesn't the fact that they're in the SRD, and not listed as a "varriant rule" make them a core class?:smallconfused:

Core (I think) typically refers to things found in the Player's Handbook. Psions come from elsewhere, but were put on the SRD for whatever reason.

Big Fau

2013-02-07, 04:36 PM

Also, on asking if they should be mixed with core classes:

Doesn't the fact that they're in the SRD, and not listed as a "varriant rule" make them a core class?:smallconfused:

It just means that Psionics is OGC. It doesn't mean they are Core.

Rektro

2013-02-07, 04:37 PM

Also, on asking if they should be mixed with core classes:

Doesn't the fact that they're in the SRD, and not listed as a "varriant rule" make them a core class?:smallconfused:

My mistake, I keep the mindset that anything thats not PHB MM and DMG is basically an expansion pack.

EDIT: after seeing the next post I'm going to stick with what I originally said.

Rektro

2013-02-07, 04:39 PM

Psion level 11 has a base of 106 power points. With 26 Intelligence, that's an extra 44 power points, for 150 total. I'm kind of curious how he boosted it that high by that level though.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm

Hope you've been enforcing this one. It's the one most people tend to miss, because the rule is hidden away.

I'll take a look at the rule. but I'm glad to be getting some good responses so quickly.

He had a base of 18 intelligence, added 1 at level 4 and 1 and level 8, and managed to bag a +6 circlet of intelligence. (A horrid.. horrid mistake by letting someone experiment in being a DM since I will soon be deploying overseas)

foolofsound

2013-02-07, 04:41 PM

Last it was...

Psion lvl 10
Cleric lvl 10
Barbarian lvl 10
Beguiler lvl 9
Duskblade lvl 10
Occasionally my buddy came over and he was a Paladin. Lvl 9.
And the psion was hitting twice as hard as the barbarian, healing himself for far more than the cleric ever could, crowd controlling better than the beguiler, and had more health than all of him due to his crazy 24 in Constitution.

Is your barbarian using a particular optimized gimmick, or just rage+full attack? If the latter, it's no wonder that the psion is outperforming him; the duskblade probably is too, unless he is poorly constructed. Is the beguiler making full and clever use of his illusions, and does he have decent DCs on them? Is the cleric primarily a healbot? I ask these questions because it sounds to me as though your psion player is a more experienced optimizer that the rest of your party, and that is more to blame that actual class' power.

I made all of them roll for their stats and he got 2 18's and a 16. Yes I watched his rolls. everyone else had around 1 18. and alright stats everywhere else.
That's why I insist on point buy. People with bad luck feel resentful of the people with good luck.

tyckspoon

2013-02-07, 04:41 PM

Psion lvl 10
Cleric lvl 10
Barbarian lvl 10
Beguiler lvl 9
Duskblade lvl 10
Occasionally my buddy came over and he was a Paladin. Lvl 9.

And the psion was hitting twice as hard as the barbarian, healing himself for far more than the cleric ever could, crowd controlling better than the beguiler, and had more health than all of him due to his crazy 24 in Constitution.

:smallconfused: Psionic healing kind of sucks. I'm not too surprised by the other things, especially if the player has more system mastery than the other players, but if the rules are being applied correctly he shouldn't outheal actual healing spells (possible exception: he's using Hostile Empathic Transfer to dump his wounds on enemies. That can cause a pretty hefty HP swing, but it's an attack power and is subject to all the usual defenses that involves. Possibly also using Vigor for chunks of temp HP, but that's not real healing either and has a pretty short duration.)

Anyr

2013-02-07, 04:41 PM

Could you possibly post this Psion's list of known powers? It might help us to understand what's going wrong here.

andromax

2013-02-07, 04:41 PM

....

Psion lvl 10
Cleric lvl 10
.....

And the psion was hitting twice as hard as the barbarian, healing himself for far more than the cleric ever could....

I'm sorry this is not saying that the Psion is too powerful, this is saying that the barbarian sucks and the cleric isn't doing it right.

If you can't get the rest of the party to pick up their weight and decide to go low OP for your campaign, then the easiest thing to do is limit which powers the Psion can take. Just work with him on which powers you think are too powerful for your campaign and have him pick different ones.

Ashtagon

2013-02-07, 04:44 PM

I'll take a look at the rule. but I'm glad to be getting some good responses so quickly.

He had a base of 18 intelligence, added 1 at level 4 and 1 and level 8, and managed to bag a +6 circlet of intelligence. (A horrid.. horrid mistake by letting someone experiment in being a DM since I will soon be deploying overseas)

I edited my post after you quoted it, to note that the powers he has chosen may need examining.

Savith9

2013-02-07, 04:48 PM

Are you properly limiting the number of power points they can spend per power?

This is a valid point I have seen some psions that run a muck simply because they arn't properly limiting the points for a power. The last time I played one I gave my DM a headache with how I was using the powers, one of the powers fate link quickly became my signature as I started to carry pets to fate link someone to followed by crushing the pet or even fate link someone attacking me to myself and this quickly stoped anyone from wanting to hit me however I also had to be cautious about how I used it.

Rektro

2013-02-07, 04:49 PM

Is your barbarian using a particular optimized gimmick, or just rage+full attack? If the latter, it's no wonder that the psion is outperforming him; the duskblade probably is too, unless he is poorly constructed. Is the beguiler making full and clever use of his illusions, and does he have decent DCs on them? Is the cleric primarily a healbot? I ask these questions because it sounds to me as though your psion player is a more experienced optimizer that the rest of your party, and that is more to blame that actual class' power.

That's why I insist on point buy. People with bad luck feel resentful of the people with good luck.

My most recent attempt to remedy this is using a point buy system, I told everyone that I'm telling everyone to use a point buy system now to make up for my friends very good rolls.

The party had started playing D&D together, At the same time, for the first time.

The cleric is a healbot yes, but any time the psion gets damaged, after combat he tells the cleric he doesnst need the healing and heals himself.
The barbarian is charging, raging, leap attacking, power attacking, Pounce isnt allowed in this game only because I restricted it to certain rule books.

The duskblade, Not gonna lie, No matter how many times I tell her to arcane channel she still hasnt gotten it through her head so that makes complete sense.

The beguiler was shotty at first, but I sat down with him and showed him how to pump up his DC's to uh.. I wanna say 26ish? And tries to crowd control to his best. mostly keeping dangerous enemies distracted and blinded while the rest of the party picks off the little ones then gangs the big guy.

If you have any advice on anything I should be telling them to do, aka barbarian should be using ________, and duskblade needs to arcane channel (for real). Beguiler I'm pretty sure is swapping to a sorcerer (told them they could since I just restricted some books. I'll make a post stating the campaign they're in right now.

andromax

2013-02-07, 04:49 PM

(possible exception: he's using Hostile Empathic Transfer to dump his wounds on enemies.
Yeah, is he even a Telepath?

SowZ

2013-02-07, 04:52 PM

My mistake, I keep the mindset that anything thats not PHB MM and DMG is basically an expansion pack.

EDIT: after seeing the next post I'm going to stick with what I originally said.

The Clerics best thing is not healing, actually. The Clerics best things are buffing, summoning, some great save-or-lose/no save-lose, and overall flexibility coming from knowing their entire spell list. If your Cleric is focusing on healing, he won't feel as useful.

As far as blasting goes, Psions aren't that great at it. They aren't terrible, but damage isn't really their shtick. How is he pumping out that much damage?

Anyway, I've played Psions and they are absolutely power houses and change the game a lot. But I've also found they are shut down a lot easier than a Wizard. There are plenty of situations where a Psion is just not very useful.

Rektro

2013-02-07, 04:55 PM

Yes, He may only spend a total of 11 power points on his powers right now due to his manifester level of 11. I enforced that from the beginning because I triple checked to make sure a level 4 psion couldnt blast his way through a really powerful boss in one shot.

The campaign they are in now is as follows, and I will post reasons for why I did what I did.

Books allowed: Players Handbook 1 and 2. Psionic Handbook and Extended Psionic.

(Wanted to restrict the books to limit class combination and other Cheesy things that I've seen them attempt)

Feats are on a voting system from any book, the players pick those together as a group when they find a feat that the barbarian would love to have, or the beguiler, etc.

40 point buy system: Reason I did this is because the other classes are much more MAD than the Psion is. Yes it gives him an excuse to have high Intelligence and Constitution but had I made it any lower and EVERYONE would have thrown a little fit because they all got decent rolls.

I made Magic Items more rare to find and since theyre all at level 10-ish they better start crafting their own things.

Feats at every two levels (starting this sunday) (Also trying to slowly drag them into pathfinder because I feel like that has something to offer them, theyve never experienced outside of 3.5e)

Metamagic feats from any book, so long as theyre explicitly metamagic. and most combat feats (cant think of an example, but things like Knockback-ish, to help the melee characters feel more useful)

I'm sure a lot of those rules make a lot of you uneasy but I'm still tweaking the system to try to find something that makes them all a little more balanced.

Rektro

2013-02-07, 04:56 PM

Yeah, is he even a Telepath?

Psychokeneticist. No.

Hes a Blaster in his Psychokeneticist areas. but his other powers he finds things that would be handy at all times.

Ashtagon

2013-02-07, 04:57 PM

Rektro

2013-02-07, 04:58 PM

The Clerics best thing is not healing, actually. The Clerics best things are buffing, summoning, some great save-or-lose/no save-lose, and overall flexibility coming from knowing their entire spell list. If your Cleric is focusing on healing, he won't feel as useful.

As far as blasting goes, Psions aren't that great at it. They aren't terrible, but damage isn't really their shtick. How is he pumping out that much damage?

Anyway, I've played Psions and they are absolutely power houses and change the game a lot. But I've also found they are shut down a lot easier than a Wizard. There are plenty of situations where a Psion is just not very useful.

Could you give an example on what might take down a Blaster Psion? His saves are pretty good, sadly, and has a lot of powers to just use them in certain situations just right.

In a generic dungeon crawl he excels in 90% of the areas. I'll gladly post the powers he has once I get home.

Yora

2013-02-07, 04:59 PM

Yeah, is he even a Telepath?

With the Expanded Knowledge feat, he does not have to.

Rektro

2013-02-07, 05:00 PM

Regarding rulebooks: If you are playing by 3.0 rules, use Psionics Handbook. If you are playing by 3.5 rules, use Expanded Psionics Handbook. The two versions aren't really compatible, since so much got revised.

We use all rules regarding Psions in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Didnt realize until after I told them that Psionics handbook was 3.0 material. I've never touched psions in my life, nor do I really like them.

Question: Couldnt find the ruling, didnt look too hard though because I've been busy with work, but does a PsychoKeneticist get all of those powers once he reaches the appropriate level? Kinda like a Cleric's Domain? Or does he have to select those?

Ashtagon

2013-02-07, 05:00 PM

Psychokeneticist. No.

Hes a Blaster in his Psychokeneticist areas. but his other powers he finds things that would be handy at all times.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powerList.htm#psionDisciplinePowers

If he's a Psychokeneticist, then every power listed as being specifically for another discipline is on his banned list. Which includes empathic transfer. So how is he healing himself?

Body adjustment is a 3rd level power, so 5 pp heals 1d12, or 11 pp heals 4d12 hp. Other than that, I don't know. Doesn't seem that cheap for him to be doing it every fight.

Savith9

2013-02-07, 05:00 PM

It still feels like their number of powers known is a large amount. and feels larger than that of sorcerers. Theyve got crazy good blasting powers. can pump up the DC on powers that shouldnt ever need to be pumped. healing abilities, and miscellaneous things for no good reason.

Make sure you look at his power list as some of the powers can not do anything if the target is unwilling, has a low intell or no mind. Most of the blasting powers they can get are useless vs skeletons and creatures that are similar for example theres a power that expells air from the targets lungs and is fairly vicious but if the creature doesn't breathe or have lungs it cant be done.

Yora

2013-02-07, 05:01 PM

It's not banned, he just has to get it with a feat.

andromax

2013-02-07, 05:01 PM

With the Expanded Knowledge feat, he does not have to.

Assuming he took the feat instead of having just been using the power regardless. OP already pointed out he is prone to making mistakes.

tyckspoon

2013-02-07, 05:04 PM

As far as blasting goes, Psions aren't that great at it. They aren't terrible, but damage isn't really their shtick. How is he pumping out that much damage?

Energy Missile and Energy Stun are pretty good powers, especially pre-Complete Psionic reprint nerfing. Not up to the bar of a fully optimized artillery Wizard or Sorcerer, but out of the box they deal better damage than wizard spells, to multiple targets, at better save DCs. A manifestation of one of them likely does as much damage as a single hit from the Barbarian, especially if he doesn't have a way to throw a really high value Power Attack and still hit effectively.

Rektro

2013-02-07, 05:04 PM

If you can't get the rest of the party to pick up their weight and decide to go low OP for your campaign, then the easiest thing to do is limit which powers the Psion can take. Just work with him on which powers you think are too powerful for your campaign and have him pick different ones.

Working with him is a little bit of a hassle, only because he is extremely stubborn and doesnt find it fair that I would have to knock powers off of his list if I'm not going to go to the beguilers list and knock off confusion and dominate, and if I'm not gonna knock rage off the barbarian, and take away the good things from the other classes, until basically what we have is a bunch of monks without the bonus to damage or flurry, which is horrid.

Mithril Leaf

2013-02-07, 05:09 PM

Rektro

2013-02-07, 05:09 PM

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powerList.htm#psionDisciplinePowers

If he's a Psychokeneticist, then every power listed as being specifically for another discipline is on his banned list. Which includes empathic transfer. So how is he healing himself?

Body adjustment is a 3rd level power, so 5 pp heals 1d12, or 11 pp heals 4d12 hp. Other than that, I don't know. Doesn't seem that cheap for him to be doing it every fight.

He uses body adjustment and thats only when he DOES get hit, which, as a DM if I'm using unintelligent creatures I try to be very smart about not making the oozes say "oh a psion durpy dur lets kill him off first" because I dont think oozes feel that way. Now when I send out a gang of thugs, thugs notice hes a blaster, and get on his tail, and just trip him and make sure he cant manifest anything without having a high concentration.

Now he cant have anything from another specific Discipline without expanded knowledge however if its on his psion/wilder powers list he can have it even if hes not a nomad or etc correct? like psychokeneticist with body adjustment. yes?

Rektro

2013-02-07, 05:12 PM

A psychokinetist without some sort of recharge trick and no Magic of Eberron should only be doing fairly reasonable damage. I'd recommend upping the number of encounters per day and strictly monitoring his power point usage. Bleed him dry a bit. You're probably encounting a 5 minute work day where he spends all his power points in a very short amount of time.

Another question on top of that. As a DM I've never had to stop them from resting because they never run around and bleed themselves dry after a good 5 - 8 encounters. Usually because the cleric is super smart about who to heal and carries a couple weak wands incase of minor injuries, and the barbarian is the only one who really gets hit, barbarian, duskblade, and occasionally the cleric.

when they rest should I just annoy them with random encounter after random encounter? They've been smart when they do need to rest in a dungeon and set up thick barricades and block themselves off. Sure they waste time doing it but doesnt really hurt them.

Rektro

2013-02-07, 05:15 PM

Energy Missile and Energy Stun are pretty good powers, especially pre-Complete Psionic reprint nerfing. Not up to the bar of a fully optimized artillery Wizard or Sorcerer, but out of the box they deal better damage than wizard spells, to multiple targets, at better save DCs. A manifestation of one of them likely does as much damage as a single hit from the Barbarian, especially if he doesn't have a way to throw a really high value Power Attack and still hit effectively.

Energy Missile, Energy Ball, and Mind Thrust?

Those are his 3 favorite blasting spells that he uses, Balls to clear little guys out of a room, Missles to spread damage to bigger guys, and Mind Thrust?? To smash one guys face open.

I know he also has Psychic Crush, Death Urge and Temporal Acceleration?

Yora

2013-02-07, 05:17 PM

They key in such cases is to confront them with situation where time is an issue. If they can complete the task in one afternoon or a week, they can easily take all the time in the world. Managing daily resources does become relevant only if they have to get certain things done within hours or a day and they simply can't affort to take an 8 hour break. Because by that time the villains would have already finished doing whatever the PCs were ment to prevent from happening.

Energy Missile can hit every target only once, unlike magic missle, which can have multiple missiles hit the same target.

Savith9

2013-02-07, 05:17 PM

He uses body adjustment and thats only when he DOES get hit, which, as a DM if I'm using unintelligent creatures I try to be very smart about not making the oozes say "oh a psion durpy dur lets kill him off first" because I dont think oozes feel that way. Now when I send out a gang of thugs, thugs notice hes a blaster, and get on his tail, and just trip him and make sure he cant manifest anything without having a high concentration.

Now he cant have anything from another specific Discipline without expanded knowledge however if its on his psion/wilder powers list he can have it even if hes not a nomad or etc correct? like psychokeneticist with body adjustment. yes?

Wilder gets free range choice of powers if i remember correctly and they can also pump their spells a bit more than strait psions and that what makes the multi classing between them nice psion gets more powers while wilder gets more points and lets you pump more

andromax

2013-02-07, 05:18 PM

Working with him is a little bit of a hassle, only because he is extremely stubborn and doesnt find it fair that I would have to knock powers off of his list if I'm not going to go to the beguilers list and knock off confusion and dominate, and if I'm not gonna knock rage off the barbarian, and take away the good things from the other classes, until basically what we have is a bunch of monks without the bonus to damage or flurry, which is horrid.

Then talk to him frankly how he should let other players have a chance to shine before you goes all crazy with his powers.

He sounds like he Novas quite a bit, ie spends power points all willy-nilly. If I were you I would set up a scenario where after he spends the majority of power points and its time to rest, you interrupt their sleep (dispel his psychoportive shelter) get him to cast more powers, rinse and repeat till he's out of power points. You'll probably need to start keeping track of his power point expenditure in your notes.

When he's out of power points he can start wishing he had let the Barbarian hit things with his axe.

Rektro

2013-02-07, 05:21 PM

Then talk to him frankly how he should let other players have a chance to shine before you goes all crazy with his powers.

He sounds like he Novas quite a bit, ie spends power points all willy-nilly. If I were you I would set up a scenario where after he spends the majority of power points and its time to rest, you interrupt their sleep (dispel his psychoportive shelter) get him to cast more powers, rinse and repeat till he's out of power points. You'll probably need to start keeping track of his power point expenditure in your notes.

When he's out of power points he can start wishing he had let the Barbarian hit things with his axe.

hm... Sounds a little cruel but maybe I'm just too nice of a DM. I'll see what I can do from this point, Just make them go sleep crazy, let him try to take all the glory and I'll secretly keep track of his power points until he's drained. and then I'll let everyone else have a turn to shine. and if he keeps up this willy nilly power crazy blasting lifestyle I'll keep that up. I'll try more time crunch quests as well. Thank you. That helps a ton.

Yora

2013-02-07, 05:24 PM

Wilder gets free range choice of powers if i remember correctly and they can also pump their spells a bit more than strait psions and that what makes the multi classing between them nice psion gets more powers while wilder gets more points and lets you pump more
No, Wilders can take powers only from the basic psion list or from the disciplines with the expanded knowledge feat. Also, they don't get any more power points, only their wild surge. But wild surge only allows to go a bit beyond the manifester level and since psion and wilder manifester levels don't stack, such a character wouldn't even be able to manifest at a higher level than a single classes one.

Ashtagon

2013-02-07, 05:24 PM

...

Now he cant have anything from another specific Discipline without expanded knowledge however if its on his psion/wilder powers list he can have it even if hes not a nomad or etc correct? like psychokeneticist with body adjustment. yes?

That's pretty much it.

I'd be very interested in seeing his build before commenting further.

One cheap (and possibly underhand) way to knock back his power is to ban the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and just use the original 3.0e Psionics Handbook. You'd need to update some of the skills to 3.5e standards though. That book has different rules for what powers can be chosen, and more importantly, makes psioncs MAD to a ridiculous degree (and psionic combat is ugh).

andromax

2013-02-07, 05:28 PM

hm... Sounds a little cruel
It's not cruel at all. It's a simple tactic that bad guys would certainly use.

Ashtagon

2013-02-07, 05:31 PM

Yora

2013-02-07, 05:32 PM

One cheap (and possibly underhand) way to knock back his power is to ban the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and just use the original 3.0e Psionics Handbook. You'd need to update some of the skills to 3.5e standards though. That book has different rules for what powers can be chosen, and more importantly, makes psioncs MAD to a ridiculous degree (and psionic combat is ugh).
That sounds a bit drastic. All psionic rules before XPH were just terrible and awful, and often highly broken as well. I don't think it would help at all, only make things much much worse for anyone involved.

Rektro

2013-02-07, 05:33 PM

That's pretty much it.

I'd be very interested in seeing his build before commenting further.

One cheap (and possibly underhand) way to knock back his power is to ban the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and just use the original 3.0e Psionics Handbook. You'd need to update some of the skills to 3.5e standards though. That book has different rules for what powers can be chosen, and more importantly, makes psioncs MAD to a ridiculous degree (and psionic combat is ugh).

Once I get home I'll be posting his stats just incase anyone ones to take another peak at them, but unfortunately that wont be for a couple hours. so Check back in 2 hours and 20 minutes from now and his stuff will be posted.

Psyren

2013-02-07, 05:43 PM

Oh, that +6 Intelligence item he has? Reveal it to be an artifact as part of a campaign arc, the destruction/disposal of which is essential to complete the quest. And have his deity thank him for being its custodian and guarding it from the gribblies intent of abusing its power.

If you're going to take it away then I agree, make an adventure out of it, though to be honest it's not too far off from his WBL at that level anyway so you could just leave him with it and skimp on the treasure (or at least the psion-specific treasure) for awhile.

One cheap (and possibly underhand) way to knock back his power is to ban the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and just use the original 3.0e Psionics Handbook. You'd need to update some of the skills to 3.5e standards though. That book has different rules for what powers can be chosen, and more importantly, makes psioncs MAD to a ridiculous degree (and psionic combat is ugh).

By all that is holy, do not do this.

Now he cant have anything from another specific Discipline without expanded knowledge however if its on his psion/wilder powers list he can have it even if hes not a nomad or etc correct? like psychokeneticist with body adjustment. yes?

Correct, Body Adjustment is a general power and thus all psions have access to it, regardless of discipline chosen.

Rektro

2013-02-07, 05:51 PM

I probably wont take away his item only because a lot of the other characters have items close to it. I'll just be skimpy on the treasure until it evens out. You guys have been more helpful than you know. I'm sure I'll find ways to knock the psion down a couple pegs without it looking suspicious.

Ashtagon

2013-02-07, 05:51 PM

If you're going to take it away then I agree, make an adventure out of it, though to be honest it's not too far off from his WBL at that level anyway so you could just leave him with it and skimp on the treasure (or at least the psion-specific treasure) for awhile.

A circlet +6 Intelligence is 36,000 gp by RAW. Level 11 WBL chart says he has 66,000 gp of items. However, the earliest level at which he could gain 36,000 gp worth of item in a single level is level 14. So he shouldn't be able to have that circlet for another three levels.

Yora

2013-02-07, 05:55 PM

Rektro

2013-02-07, 05:57 PM

Rektro

2013-02-07, 05:58 PM

But he could easily afford a +4 one and I think for that small difference it's not worth getting into the trouble of taking away the best magic items from players.
Also, power points doesn't really seem to be the source of the problem at hand.

Its less power points and more versatility.

Another question. How does the spell knock work? Does it automatically open locked doors? Or is there a roll for it?

Ashtagon

2013-02-07, 06:00 PM

Our campaign levels up pretty fast. Itll maybe be another 5 sessions when theyre 13.

That said, if you run the game with magic item shops, restricting magic item power levels by WBL (as opposed to total value of all magic items) is pretty much impossible anyway.

Rektro

2013-02-07, 06:01 PM

That said, if you run the game with magic item shops, restricting magic item power levels by WBL (as opposed to total value of all magic items) is pretty much impossible anyway.

That is true.. you wouldnt happen to know of a shop generator would you?

Twilightwyrm

2013-02-07, 06:08 PM

I assume you've tried sending things with Spell/Power Resistance? (Not sure what level of magic/psionic transparency you have going on) Even if he is only failing his roll 1/4 times, it would seem he tends to expand maximum power points every time he manifests, meaning that each failed roll will hurt all the more.
If so, there are a number of things you can throw at him. Githyanki are renowned for their psionic disrupting "Silver Swords", so having the party fight some of those guys might help (if you can get one within melee range of him). Because he is a kineticists, his main focus will be blasting things. Have the party face a group of monster that rely heavily on illusions (Hag Covens are a favorite of mine) and assault them with illusory threats. This serves the duel purpose of giving the beguiler some time to shine, since the beguiler can attempt to then counter the foe with his own illusions (illusion battles can become pretty spectacular), and even the barbarian and dusk blade may well be more helpful, as their ability to swing at multiple targets, unlimited times, becomes more useful in playing illusion minesweeper than a psion that has to expend PP every time he wants to blast a potential threat (hell, even the cleric may be more useful here).
You could also start using more ambushes and poisons. Foes that attack quickly to poison you, then run, are both thematic, and more importantly, make the cleric's ability to heal off ability damage far more valuable, an ability the psion cannot easily replicate. Further, the Duskblade and Barbarian are likely to have high Fort saves and HP, making them better able to shrug off repeated poison attempts. As a rule, I find I agree with many on this site, that creating challenges to handicap specific players isn't an advisable strategy to employ when DMing. However, your party should expect to face a variety of challenges in their adventures, and if in this case the psion is less able to easily handle them, well that is to be expected. Don't attempt to cripple him so he can't do anything, but don't throw straightforward encounter after straightforward encounter at him, as these would appear to be the things he can handle best. If your doing it right, he'll appreciate the challenge, and everyone else with appreciate both the new and interesting encounters, as well as their ability to have some spotlight.

Ashtagon

2013-02-07, 06:09 PM

That is true.. you wouldnt happen to know of a shop generator would you?

The only workable solution to the magic item store issue is to eliminate magic item shops from the setting entirely, with a possible exception for potion vendors (not scroll vendors - they represent easy spell books for wizards).

The occasional vendor may have a limited number of items for sale. Figure this as if the vendor was a character of level equivalent to the average party level, determine his inventory of magic items randomly to the limit of his WBL, and that's all that's for sale. If the party waits for new items to come in stock, refresh his entire stock after one month. Finding one (and only one) magic item vendor in a metropolis should be a given. Smaller communities have (population/25000) % chance of having one vendor.

Any NPC able to use items will buy them, so PCs can still continue to dispose of unwanted magic items.

Psyren

2013-02-07, 06:09 PM

A circlet +6 Intelligence is 36,000 gp by RAW. Level 11 WBL chart says he has 66,000 gp of items. However, the earliest level at which he could gain 36,000 gp worth of item in a single level is level 14. So he shouldn't be able to have that circlet for another three levels.

As Yora said, really not that big a deal. WBL is a guideline and if the players end up with more swag than the table suggests then it's as easy as the OP throttling the pipeline until they're back in check.

You can even keep the monsters challenging by having their gear be mundane, but they pack a lot of consumables (which they eat prior to ambushing the PCs.)

Yora

2013-02-07, 06:12 PM

Psyren

2013-02-07, 06:56 PM

While waiting for the full character sheet, I highly suspect the main issue being that the party simply mostly runs into rooms with lots of targets to deal damage to until they run out of hp. And in that situation, a kineticist is the undisputed king of the game. In a competetion who can deal the most damage in the shortest amount of time, there would be very few characters who could compete with that.
The key is to not have the game revolve too much around such encounters.

Encounters/day is the other key consideration. Psions can open up fights at full bore without fear, because they can burn low-level "slots" to cast higher. They never have to worry about unused weaker spells at the end of the day, nor do they have to worry about using their big guns early and only having weaker abilities later for a possibly greater threat. So if you have few encounters (or weaker ones) in a given day, Psions won't be as challenged as they can go all out, then rest.

Bonzai

2013-02-07, 07:12 PM

My Advice?

1. Talk to the other players individually and ask them if they are having fun, and enjoying their characters. If the players are having a good time, then it really doesn't matter if the Psion is doing the heavy lifting.

2. Try and add in more role play to the game, so that it's more driven by character than stats. Then it really doesn't matter as much if the Psion is knocking people over left and right in actual combat, so long as everyone is relevant and contributing to the story as a hole.

3. Instead of trying to shackle the Psion down and handicap him, which only makes the player feel like you are singling him out and picking on him (which lets face it, you are), try and bring the other players up to par. You meantioned that you restricted some books, and that could be an issue. If the Barbarian isn't keeping up, then maybe you really should consider letting him get that pounce, which would boost him up considerably. Allowing all the "Completes" would go a long way toward expanding the Cleric's options. With the Beguiler, I have a house rule that you may like. In the Player Handbook 2, Warmages get an alternative class feature that replaces their advanced learning class feature with a feature called Eclectic learning. This lets them learn any one spell from the Wiz/Sorc list that is at least one lvl lower than the highest one they know. I allow Beguilers and Dread Necro's to take this as well, since it's the same class feature. It gives them some flexability, and allows the party to have some staple spells....like teleport and such.

4. In all games that I DM, I have gone to a 32 point buy system, and we ignore loot period, unless it is story or quest relavent. At each level up, they get the gold that the Wealth by lvl table indicates, and provided they are in propper place to spend it, they can do so however they see fit. Why? I wanted to take luck out of the equasion. Everyone gets the same access to stats and gear. They don't have to rely on random loot tables or rolls. There is no argueing over loot, back stabbing, or inane money grabbing ploys (like yanking all the nails out of building so that they could be sold for extra cash). Its just assumed that they loot and are rewarded as they go. It makes for a lot less book keeping, games run smoothly, and the players are more than happy with it. In fact, most of the dms in the group have switched to something similar.

5. Don't do this all the time, but every once in a while push the party's endurance. Psions are brutal when allowed to nova, but what happens after he's blown his load? If you allow reserve feats, then this makes things easier. The Barbarian is good as long as he is healed, so let the cleric take the healing reserve feat, and they can go all day. Same with the beguiler and duskblade. A couple of sessions where the Psion runs out of power points from going super saiyen every combat and then pushing forward, may cause him to hold back a bit and keep a reserve just in case.

Thats my advice. Hope it helps!

Rektro

2013-02-07, 07:30 PM

Sheet will be posted in probably 20 minutes. On my way home now

In regards to roleplaying he does the most out of everyone. Trying to telepathically convince people and things a bard should be doing. I usually tell him that all the npcs give him a funny look and tell him to speak with his mouth.

My wife just sent me a list of the powers he wrote down and it looks like im going to have to sit down with him and redo his powers. He hasnt updated it since his last two levels [we had a dnd weekend with lots of play time] and after this I think his versatility will drop exponentially. But I will still post the stats just for everyones sake. Be back soon

Rektro

2013-02-07, 08:03 PM

Str 8
Con 20
Dex 12
Int 26
Wis 10
Cha 8

Race : gnome

Nimble hero psicrystal

Saves: fort +10
Ref +7
Will + 11

AC only 14.
FF 13
Touch 11

Initiative +5

Powers are messed up. But ill post them anyways
Energy ray

Mind thrust
energy ray
Energy push
Swarm crystal
Telepathic projection
Concussion thoughts
Hostile intent
Energy missile
Control air
?????? Cant read it.
Energy bolt
Energy wall
Body adjustment
Energy retort
Energy burst
Energy wall
Share pain
Light vision?
Death urge
Psychic crush
Retrieve?
Temporal acceleration

A few of those he should be given for free for being a keneticist so im sure he has a couple more in his head that he uses but I dont know. But since we started enforcing things if its not on his sheet thats too bad.

Spuddles

2013-02-07, 08:35 PM

If you've got a past wizard playing a psion with a solid intelligence bonus, then yeah, he'll probably have read the handbook and therefor know the best powers. Again make sure he can only use a max of his manifester level on powers. Your party make just be lower tiered or you may be simply underestimating tier 2. They are just as powerful as tier one but can't simply from one day to the next be able to totally remake themselves to suit the encounter for free.

Psy Reform let's you rebuild your psion in 15min for a trivial amount of xp. In all but the most theoretical discussions (and once you get there, everyone has n+1 everything, anyway), psions function as T1.

Make sure you look at his power list as some of the powers can not do anything if the target is unwilling, has a low intell or no mind. Most of the blasting powers they can get are useless vs skeletons and creatures that are similar for example theres a power that expells air from the targets lungs and is fairly vicious but if the creature doesn't breathe or have lungs it cant be done.

Actually psions are great at blasting. Energy ray, swarm of crystals, energy missile, energy current, crystal shard all scale well and offer good/no saves. The flexibility in damage type is really useful, too.

They're better out of the box blasters than arcane casters, and optimized, they're probably on par if not better blasters.

I probably wont take away his item only because a lot of the other characters have items close to it. I'll just be skimpy on the treasure until it evens out. You guys have been more helpful than you know. I'm sure I'll find ways to knock the psion down a couple pegs without it looking suspicious.

Just be skimpy on psion treasure. The t4 should still be getting good loot. It's alright to have them a little over geared, especially because they're being shown up by the psion.

Encounters/day is the other key consideration. Psions can open up fights at full bore without fear, because they can burn low-level "slots" to cast higher. They never have to worry about unused weaker spells at the end of the day, nor do they have to worry about using their big guns early and only having weaker abilities later for a possibly greater threat. So if you have few encounters (or weaker ones) in a given day, Psions won't be as challenged as they can go all out, then rest.

DMing for psions in real play can be tricky because of this. They're so damn resource & action efficient. The prepared T1 casters are pretty easy to deal with if you can get them to prep the wrong spells. In many cases, they'll prep the wrong spells all on their own!

The Glyphstone

2013-02-07, 08:39 PM

A few of those he should be given for free for being a keneticist so im sure he has a couple more in his head that he uses but I dont know. But since we started enforcing things if its not on his sheet thats too bad.

Psions never get 'free' powers. They still have to spend Powers Known to get powers off their exclusive list, it's just a list that only they are allowed to choose from without using feats on Expanded Knowledge.

Kalaska'Agathas

2013-02-07, 08:49 PM

Psions never get 'free' powers. They still have to spend Powers Known to get powers off their exclusive list, it's just a list that only they are allowed to choose from without using feats on Expanded Knowledge.

Unless they acquire them via Psychic Chirurgery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm).

Rektro

2013-02-07, 08:55 PM

Psions never get 'free' powers. They still have to spend Powers Known to get powers off their exclusive list, it's just a list that only they are allowed to choose from without using feats on Expanded Knowledge.

That makes so much sense. I skimmed over that. Whoops.

tyckspoon

2013-02-07, 09:13 PM

If he commits to that as his Powers Known list, I don't think you have too much to worry about- more than half of it is I Do HP Damage powers, and the ones that aren't shouldn't be a huge issue, just remember to read what the powers actually do and don't necessarily rely on what he *says* they do- a lot of spell and power descriptions have fairly detailed rules that make a huge difference to their strength. (For example, Detect Hostile Intent only senses active aggression- it'll spoil an ambush if they're close enough, but it won't tell you what's on the other side of a door that you haven't opened yet. Unless it happens to be a prepared and ready ambush, I guess.) Plan out a few encounters that can't be easily defeated by exploding it with magic and he should look less intimidating (they don't necessarily have to be non-combat. Something with significant Spell Resistance would give him trouble, since the only thing he has that is SR: No is Swarm of Crystals, which doesn't do very good damage.)

I noticed Share Pain on his list. Is he using that to funnel damage into his Psicrystal? If so, make a note of this, from the info on Psicrystals under Psions:

The owner and psicrystal cannot share powers if the powers normally do not affect creatures of the psicrystal’s type (construct).
Constructs cannot be fixed by Body Adjustment. In order to fix any damage to his psicrystal, he'll have to acquire Psionic Repair Damage.

sreservoir

2013-02-07, 09:45 PM

Constructs cannot be fixed by Body Adjustment. In order to fix any damage to his psicrystal, he'll have to acquire Psionic Repair Damage.

nothing in particular about constructs seems to prohibit healing effects from taking effect.

tyckspoon

2013-02-07, 09:51 PM

Construct Type trait:

Cannot heal damage on their own, but often can be repaired by exposing them to a certain kind of effect (see the creature’s description for details)

Psicrystal critter entry, Construct Traits block:

It cannot heal damage, but it can be repaired.

Body Adjustment:

You take control of your body’s healing process, curing yourself of 1d12 points of damage.

Anything that 'heals' will not work on most Constructs. There is a mechanical difference between 'heal' and 'repair' in this context.

Psyren

2013-02-07, 09:52 PM

Psicrystals can't heal on their own, but they can be healed just fine.

TuggyNE

2013-02-07, 09:55 PM

nothing in particular about constructs seems to prohibit healing effects from taking effect.

Fluffwise, body adjustment seems predicated on natural healing (which constructs do not have), but there is unfortunately no specific RAW connection. It's plausible that it wasn't intended to work on psicrystals, but it doesn't seem to be worded tightly enough for that.

Also, shared vigor.

foolofsound

2013-02-07, 09:56 PM

Psy Reform let's you rebuild your psion in 15min for a trivial amount of xp. In all but the most theoretical discussions (and once you get there, everyone has n+1 everything, anyway), psions function as T1.

If nothing else, I suggest that you ban Psychic Reformation; it allows Psions to act as more flexible wizards, something no GM needs.

Kalaska'Agathas

2013-02-07, 09:58 PM

If nothing else, I suggest that you ban Psychic Reformation; it allows Psions to act as more flexible wizards, something no GM needs.

I wouldn't say that it allows greater flexibility than the stock Wizard. A Wizard doesn't need to spend XP to prepare different spells.

And it's not exactly hard for a Wizard to get access to it, in any case.

J-H

2013-02-07, 10:01 PM

Share Pain on a psicrystal is usually preceded by Vigor for a very large pool of temporary HP.

There are a couple of really, really easy ways to disable this guy.
1) He's small and weak. Grapple or Ray of Enfeeblement should both disable him.
2) He's got 8 Cha. 1 to 3 Ego whips should knock him out.
3) Counter with magic: Dispel his buffs, use acid/solid/death fog, ectoplasmic shambler, etc. The Barbarian doesn't care about dispel nearly as much as the low-AC psion does... especially if Dispel is followed by a full attack from the caster's archer buddy (using a Splitting bow).

sreservoir

2013-02-07, 10:02 PM

If nothing else, I suggest that you ban Psychic Reformation; it allows Psions to act as more flexible wizards, something no GM needs.

its duration is quite similar to the amount of time a wizard would take to prepare previously unprepared slots from a spellbook anyway. psychic reformation is far more interesting for its metagame effects than anything else.

Anyr

2013-02-07, 10:04 PM

Powers are messed up. But ill post them anyways

Indeed they are. Here's a cleaner list of the ones I could figure out:

1st: Energy Ray, Mind Thrust, Telempathic Projection?
2nd: Concussion Blast? Control Air, Energy Missile, Detect Hostile Intent? Energy Push, Share Pain
3rd: Body Adjustment, Energy Bolt, Energy Burst, Energy Retort, Energy Wall
4th: Death Urge
5th: Psychic Crush
6th: Retrieve, Temporal Acceleration

This is a bizarre selection, to say the least. The number of known powers is wrong (or at least unusual) for every single power level. Some have too few, and some have too many, but all are questionable. There are also other oddities, like the way he has both Retrieve and Temporal Acceleration; Normally that would require at least 12 levels of Psion. I'm also at a loss as to how he has 'healing better than a cleric', when the only healing power he possesses is Body Adjustment. All in all, it seems that your problems stem from sloppy bookkeeping (or outright cheating) on the player's part, rather than the psionics system itself.

andromax

2013-02-07, 10:05 PM

-snip-

The absence of Vigor from that list is shocking.

Also, the fact that he has so many different blasting spells is amusing. This power list is weak.

Energy wall is probably the most versatile, with temporal acceleration being the most powerful.

Body adjustment is just so far beyond weak in comparison to vigor you should be happy that's all he's using to heal.

You just need to keep tabs on his power point usage to make sure he's not going over. This build is very poorly optimized.

It's not like he's using schism & anticipatory strike which is where psions get really powerful.

Rektro

2013-02-07, 10:20 PM

The absence of Vigor from that list is shocking.

Also, the fact that he has so many different blasting spells is amusing. This power list is weak.

Energy wall is probably the most versatile, with temporal acceleration being the most powerful.

Body adjustment is just so far beyond weak in comparison to vigor you should be happy that's all he's using to heal.

You just need to keep tabs on his power point usage to make sure he's not going over. This build is very poorly optimized.

It's not like he's using schism & anticipatory strike which is where psions get really powerful.

I guess it was just him lying about his powers.
Oh well. Atleast I got some good options for helping keep him out of the spotlight. Thanks everyone.

Anyr

2013-02-08, 12:29 AM

I guess it was just him lying about his powers.
Oh well. Atleast I got some good options for helping keep him out of the spotlight. Thanks everyone.

In future, you might want to insist on keeping a current list of his powers in front of you during the game. It would also be prudent to personally learn the details of what those powers can (and can't) do, rather than relying on the player's apparently untrustworthy information.

Kalaska'Agathas

2013-02-08, 12:49 AM

I guess it was just him lying about his powers.
Oh well. Atleast I got some good options for helping keep him out of the spotlight. Thanks everyone.

Before accusing him of lying, I'd approach him with a discussion about how the powers work. He may have misunderstood how they work, no duplicity intended.

Spuddles

2013-02-08, 12:55 AM

Indeed they are. Here's a cleaner list of the ones I could figure out:

1st: Energy Ray, Mind Thrust, Telempathic Projection?
2nd: Concussion Blast? Control Air, Energy Missile, Detect Hostile Intent? Energy Push, Share Pain
3rd: Body Adjustment, Energy Bolt, Energy Burst, Energy Retort, Energy Wall
4th: Death Urge
5th: Psychic Crush
6th: Retrieve, Temporal Acceleration

This is a bizarre selection, to say the least. The number of known powers is wrong (or at least unusual) for every single power level. Some have too few, and some have too many, but all are questionable. There are also other oddities, like the way he has both Retrieve and Temporal Acceleration; Normally that would require at least 12 levels of Psion. I'm also at a loss as to how he has 'healing better than a cleric', when the only healing power he possesses is Body Adjustment. All in all, it seems that your problems stem from sloppy bookkeeping (or outright cheating) on the player's part, rather than the psionics system itself.

I'd like to note that psions can pick any power they want to know upon leveling up, so long as they are capable of manifesting powers of that level. A 20th level psion, for instance, could have all his powers as first level powers.

Ashtagon

2013-02-08, 01:03 AM

Str 8
Con 20
Dex 12
Int 26
Wis 10
Cha 8

Str 8 (10 base, -2 race)
Con 20 (18 base, +2 race)
Dex 12
Int 26 (18 base +6 item, +2 level)
Wis 10
Cha 8

Nothing too out of place. With his low Strength, might want to check on his encumbrance if he hasn't paid for a bag of holding

Race : gnome

Nimble hero psicrystal

Nimble: +2 initiative.
Hero: +2 Fortitude save.

psicrystals can only have ONE personality type, not two or more. Also, do note that it requires a feat to have a psicrystal at all. Also, if he uses share pain with his crystal or it gets damaged otherwise, he has no way to repair it by himself with the abilities noted so far.

Saves: fort +10
Ref +7
Will + 11

fort +10 (+3 level, +5 Constitution, +2 psicrystal)
Ref +7 (+3 level, +1 Dexterity)
Will + 11 (+7 level, +0 Wisdom)

His Reflex and Will saves are too high, unless there's something not noted. Also, he needs to decide which of the two personality modifiers his crystal has.

AC only 14.
FF 13
Touch 11

Initiative +5

AC only 14 (+1 Dexterity)
FF 13
Touch 11
Initiative +5 (+1 Dexterity, +2 crystal)

Assuming the remaining +3 AC comes from equipment, do note he is not proficient with any armour by default.

Note sure where the +5 initiative comes from. Should only be +3 or +1, depending on which feature he settles on for his crystal.

Powers are messed up. But ill post them anyways
Energy ray

Mind thrust
energy ray
Energy push
Swarm crystal
Telepathic projection
Concussion thoughts
Hostile intent
Energy missile
Control air
?????? Cant read it.
Energy bolt
Energy wall
Body adjustment
Energy retort
Energy burst
Energy wall
Share pain
Light vision?
Death urge
Psychic crush
Retrieve?
Temporal acceleration

A few of those he should be given for free for being a keneticist so im sure he has a couple more in his head that he uses but I dont know. But since we started enforcing things if its not on his sheet thats too bad.

Bear in mind he should have a maximum of 5/4/4/4/1 powers.

level 1 (3): energy ray, mind thrust, telempathic projection
level 2 (6): energy push, swarm of crystals, detect hostile intent, energy missile†, control air†, share pain
level 3 (6): energy bolt, energy wall, body adjustment, energy retort, energy burst, energy wall
level 4 (1): death urge
level 5 (1): psychic crush
level 6 (2): retrieve, temporal acceleration

† denotes a power on the kineticist list. These still count against his total limit of 22 powers allowed at his level.
The energy ray power was listed twice.
I'm assuming "swarm crystal" was "swarm of crystals".
I'm assuming "telepathic projection" was "telempathic projection".
I'm assuming "hostile intent" was "detect hostile intent".

The following three items couldn't be identified as specific psionic powers:

concussion thoughts
?????? Cant read it.
light vision

Of these, the L2 and L3 powers could be legitimate totals, assuming he chose to take a lower level power in place of a higher level one. There is no way he could legitimately obtain the L6 powers.

Psyren

2013-02-08, 01:03 AM

Anyr

2013-02-08, 01:05 AM

I'd like to note that psions can pick any power they want to know upon leveling up, so long as they are capable of manifesting powers of that level. A 20th level psion, for instance, could have all his powers as first level powers.

Indeed; That's why I included the '(or at least unusual)' caveat in my statement. Assuming this power list is incomplete, most of it could technically be legal.

Spuddles

2013-02-08, 01:10 AM

And be capable in a 20th level encounter to boot :smalltongue:

I love this system!

iYo tambien!

Indeed; That's why I included the '(or at least unusual)' caveat in my statement. Assuming this power list is incomplete, most of it could technically be legal.

I know you know, I just wanted to clarify for OP.

Str 8 (10 base, -2 race)
Con 20 (18 base, +2 race)
Dex 12
Int 26 (18 base +6 item, +2 level)
Wis 10
Cha 8

Nothing too out of place. With his low Strength, might want to check on his encumbrance if he hasn't paid for a bag of holding

Nimble: +2 initiative.
Hero: +2 Fortitude save.

psicrystals can only have ONE personality type, not two or more. Also, do note that it requires a feat to have a psicrystal at all. Also, if he uses share pain with his crystal or it gets damaged otherwise, he has no way to repair it by himself with the abilities noted so far.

Bear in mind he should have a maximum of 5/4/4/4/1 powers.

level 1 (3): energy ray, mind thrust, telempathic projection
level 2 (6): energy push, swarm of crystals, detect hostile intent, energy missile†, control air†, share pain
level 3 (6): energy bolt, energy wall, body adjustment, energy retort, energy burst, energy wall
level 4 (1): death urge
level 5 (1): psychic crush
level 6 (2): retrieve, temporal acceleration

† denotes a power on the kineticist list. These still count against his total limit of 22 powers allowed at his level.
The energy ray power was listed twice.
I'm assuming "swarm crystal" was "swarm of crystals".
I'm assuming "telepathic projection" was "telempathic projection".
I'm assuming "hostile intent" was "detect hostile intent".

The following three items couldn't be identified as specific psionic powers:

concussion thoughts
?????? Cant read it.
light vision

Of these, the L2 and L3 powers could be legitimate totals, assuming he chose to take a lower level power in place of a higher level one. There is no way he could legitimately obtain the L6 powers.

Light Vision is probably "My Light", Concussion thoughts is probably concussive blast.

And you can get two personalities in a psicrystal with a feat.

Ashtagon

2013-02-08, 01:21 AM

And you can get two personalities in a psicrystal with a feat.

Probably. Where's his feat list? I tend to assume nothing has been chosen unless explicitly stated as being chosen.

He should have three bonus psionic feats, plus four feats from his level. Two of the implied feats chosen are Psicrystal and Improved Psicrystal.

Also, as before, I edited my post after you quoted it.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-02-08, 01:23 AM

I'd like to note that psions can pick any power they want to know upon leveling up, so long as they are capable of manifesting powers of that level. A 20th level psion, for instance, could have all his powers as first level powers.

No they couldn't - there's not enough 1st level powers for that!

Nimble: +2 initiative.
Hero: +2 Fortitude save.

psicrystals can only have ONE personality type, not two or more. Also, do note that it requires a feat to have a psicrystal at all. Also, if he uses share pain with his crystal or it gets damaged otherwise, he has no way to repair it by himself with the abilities noted so far.

And you can get two personalities in a psicrystal with a feat.

You can get it with a feat? Interesting - I thought that the only ways were the Kalashtar/Changeling Psion racial sub levels.

Bogardan_Mage

2013-02-08, 01:25 AM

Concussion thoughts
Could that be Conceal Thoughts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/concealThoughts.htm) or Concussion Blast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/concussionBlast.htm)?

Light vision?
Might be Elfsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/elfsight.htm) (as in "low-light vision") or My Light (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/myLight.htm). Probably not Darkvision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/darkvisionPsionic.htm), but who knows?

Rubik

2013-02-08, 01:32 AM

Regarding rulebooks: If you are playing by 3.0 rules, use Psionics Handbook. If you are playing by 3.5 rules, use Expanded Psionics Handbook. The two versions aren't really compatible, since so much got revised.Oh god. Even if you're using 3.0, use the EXPANDED Psionics Handbook. The XPH is more compatible with 3.0 than the Psionics Handbook is.

Don't EVER use the 3.0 book. E-V-E-R.

Spuddles

2013-02-08, 01:33 AM

Rubik

2013-02-08, 01:41 AM

One of the rare places in D&D where this sort of hyperbole is warranted.My post was entirely hyperbole-free.

Don't use the PsH. It's baaaaad.

SowZ

2013-02-08, 02:22 AM

Could you give an example on what might take down a Blaster Psion? His saves are pretty good, sadly, and has a lot of powers to just use them in certain situations just right.

In a generic dungeon crawl he excels in 90% of the areas. I'll gladly post the powers he has once I get home.

A blaster psion really is not the most optimal type of psion. His blasting shouldn't be much harder to counter than, say, a wizards blasting or a sorcerers. But you can pick the right enemy types to seriously hamper any utility and crowd control he has.

Morcleon

2013-02-08, 02:37 AM

A blaster psion really is not the most optimal type of psion. His blasting shouldn't be much harder to counter than, say, a wizards blasting or a sorcerers. But you can pick the right enemy types to seriously hamper any utility and crowd control he has.

Considering that psions get to pick from four of the energy types on the fly, yes, it does make his blasting harder to counter. Of course, you could just throw another psion at him, who has energy adaptation or something. :smallcool:

ahenobarbi

2013-02-08, 02:42 AM

A blaster psion really is not the most optimal type of psion. His blasting shouldn't be much harder to counter than, say, a wizards blasting or a sorcerers.

Well actually it can be (a little). If you know wizard doesn't memorizes only acid- and fire- blasting spells you can send enemy that can laugh at them. Psion powers generally let you pick what energy type they use on the fly.

Ashtagon

2013-02-08, 02:53 AM

Oh god. Even if you're using 3.0, use the EXPANDED Psionics Handbook. The XPH is more compatible with 3.0 than the Psionics Handbook is.

Don't EVER use the 3.0 book. E-V-E-R.

One of the rare places in D&D where this sort of hyperbole is warranted.

I consider this an unfair criticism of the 3.0e Psionics Handbook. It is quite a well-written book, from a proof-reading, spelling, and grammar perspective, unlike, say, Tome of Battle (IHS anyone?) and Tome of Magic (nearly all of it). It just happens to be a rather convoluted way to make a tier 6 full caster, which not many people fully appreciate.

SowZ

2013-02-08, 03:00 AM

Well actually it can be (a little). If you know wizard doesn't memorizes only acid- and fire- blasting spells you can send enemy that can laugh at them. Psion powers generally let you pick what energy type they use on the fly.

Yeah, I've thought of that. But all that means is they are better at overcoming DR and energy resistance and such. That shouldn't push them into a totally unstoppable range.

Morcleon

2013-02-08, 03:00 AM

I consider this an unfair criticism of the 3.0e Psionics Handbook. It is quite a well-written book, from a proof-reading, spelling, and grammar perspective, unlike, say, Tome of Battle (IHS anyone?) and Tome of Magic (nearly all of it). It just happens to be a rather convoluted way to make a tier 6 full caster, which not many people fully appreciate.

From a readability and wording standpoint, it's quite nice. But the fact that the mechanics tend to be far more confusing than the XPH combined with the whole "tier 6" thing makes most people enjoy using the XPH far more.

It is quite possible to make a tier 6 full caster. Play a wizard, but don't buy a spellbook. :smalltongue:

Yeah, I've thought of that. But all that means is they are better at overcoming DR and energy resistance and such. That shouldn't push them into a totally unstoppable range.

Of course not. But considering that very few monsters have significant resistances to more than three energy types means that the psion can just pick the one that isn't resisted (sonic, anyone?:smallsmile:).

And when you're pumping out some 10d6 crystal shards, DR becomes nigh-meaningless... :smalltongue:

Spuddles

2013-02-08, 03:09 AM

A blaster psion really is not the most optimal type of psion. His blasting shouldn't be much harder to counter than, say, a wizards blasting or a sorcerers. But you can pick the right enemy types to seriously hamper any utility and crowd control he has.

If just going with out of the box, mostly core/XPH blasting, a psion is much better.

Energy Ray, Crystal Shard, Energy Missile, and Energy Current get you:
CL damage in sonic, electricity, cold, fire, non-typed, ability to ignore SR/saves, target reflex, target fort, target multiple enemies, 20-30% more damage, and great damage return per power point over time (energy current).

With overchannel, you can eke out even more damage. The only down side is power point efficiency.

Compare that with having to use magic missile fireball, lightning bolt, cone of cold, and fireball. Even though you can get 15d6 with cone of cold for a fifth level slot (a psion requires the equivalent of an 8th level slot), you are stuck with cone shape, reflex targeting, and cold damage. I suppose a maximized cone of cold gets you a flat 90 points of damage while an average psion power manifested with 15pp only gets you ~67 damage.

ahenobarbi

2013-02-08, 03:12 AM

It is quite possible to make a tier 6 full caster. Play a wizard, but don't buy a spellbook. :smalltongue:

Even better Start with INT 10, increase to 11 @ lvl 8, 12 @ lv 16, 13 @lvl 20.

Lupus753

2013-02-08, 03:16 AM

Spuddles

2013-02-08, 03:16 AM

You don't even have to go that far. Just pick spells that don't do anything, like knock and identify.

Legend has it that a foolish knave did so bitterly complain about the awesome power of those who control others with their own mind. Especially when thou wilt compare it to the balanced and moderately powered individuals noted in the core books. But a wise sage saw through his weak argument and showed him the majesty of the divine healer and the one in tune with nature. Thus, the legend of the 'CoDzilla' was born.

What I'm saying is that gamers have overestimated the Psion for a long time.

It requires a certain play style and level of systems mastery for this to be the case.

Though it sounds like OP's problem player may be cheating a wee bit, in general, spontaneous casters don't get enough love on the internet.

Internet discussions of D&D are "I shot you! nuh-uh! yuh-huh!" arguments turned up to 11, so of course the class that has access to the most guns, etc., is going to look best. Classic Shrodinger's wizard.

In actual play where you don't get 20 levels to work with, a RAWtarded DM, perfect information, and as much buff time as you like, prepared casters often fall short of their expected power.

Manifesters, like martial adepts, come with a lot of out of the box power, and the advantage of things that sound cool also work pretty well.

Morcleon

2013-02-08, 03:22 AM

Legend has it that a foolish knave did so bitterly complain about the awesome power of those who control others with their own mind. Especially when thou wilt compare it to the balanced and moderately powered individuals noted in the core books. But a wise sage saw through his weak argument and showed him the majesty of the divine healer and the one in tune with nature. Thus, the legend of the 'CoDzilla' was born.

What I'm saying is that gamers have overestimated the Psion for a long time.

Indeed they have. But then you get the StP Erudite, who gets all the psionic tricks and the arcane/divine ones too. :smallamused:

Psionics is somewhat better at breaking the action economy, though. Twin synchronicity linked to synchronicity, persistent temporal acceleration, etc... :smallbiggrin:

Dimers

2013-02-08, 03:33 AM

Norin

2013-02-08, 03:54 AM

Well actually it can be (a little). If you know wizard doesn't memorizes only acid- and fire- blasting spells you can send enemy that can laugh at them. Psion powers generally let you pick what energy type they use on the fly.

A sorcerer (or Warmage.. eww) with rapid metamagic and (multiple) energy substitution feat(s) can do it too i suppose.

Albeit not as fexible and quite more feat-heavy than a Psion.

Morcleon

2013-02-08, 03:56 AM

A sorcerer (or Warmage.. eww) with rapid metamagic and (multiple) energy substitution feat(s) can do it too i suppose.

Albeit not as fexible and quite more feat-heavy than a Psion.

Yeah, but that burns away at minimum two feats for some not-really flexibility. If you want that level of flexibility as a sorcerer, use shadowcraft mage with heighten spell and earth spell. :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

Psyren

2013-02-08, 09:55 AM

No they couldn't - there's not enough 1st level powers for that!

There are 51 in CPsi alone, so yes, they could.

It is quite possible to make a tier 6 full caster. Play a wizard, but don't buy a spellbook. :smalltongue:

Eidetic Spellcaster, tattooed spells... ah crap, I'm T1/T2 again. :smalltongue::smalltongue:

Yeah, I've thought of that. But all that means is they are better at overcoming DR and energy resistance and such. That shouldn't push them into a totally unstoppable range.

They're not unstoppable, IF you have enough encounters per day. If you don't, they will end up slagging the battlefield and then going to bed eventually.

Rektro

2013-02-08, 11:30 AM

I may be a little late to the game, here, but ...

AC 14?! He doesn't even have anything that gives monsters a miss chance? I can tell you very quickly what to do to make this psion less of a battle-god: put an enemy next to him and full-attack.

Killing him is not the problem. Id just toss 5 psion killers and something quick to deal with the barbarian. Its the fact that he had a power for everything inside and outside of combat. Getting past traps because he never had to be anywhere near a door to bust it open.

I sat down with him and made his sheet much better in regards to following of rules. His characters versatilitu shot down quickly. So thats good. And hero is for will saves I thought. Mightve mixed up some books again.

Rektro

2013-02-08, 11:37 AM

Matter of factly, I helped him rebuild his character from the start, watched his spell choices. Helped him pick feats. Now hes just a blaster really. Overchannel, metamagics, the works. Now a question is what is a good way to get rid of a dorje for combat? A monk could snatch that during an ambush I guess. Correct? If im gonna make things last longer and power drain him I should remove that from him yes?

Toliudar

2013-02-08, 12:56 PM

In my opinion, taking away a character's toys is a particularly un-fun way to challenge them. If the dorje is a tool he's using all the time, the problem will take care of itself because he'll burn through uses and it'll be gone.

I don't understand your point about 'killing him is not the problem'. If you're never putting him in jeapardy, he's never having to apply power points or powers to defense and so consequently has more power and actions to deal with offense. You don't need to metagame to put a 'hang back and blast' psion at risk. Incorporeal enemies in the walls. Attackers from multiple sides. Mobile and invisible archers. Tucker's kobold style assaults. He has no way to teleport, fly, survive underwater, or hurt a golem, as far as I can tell.

SowZ

2013-02-08, 01:01 PM

There are 51 in CPsi alone, so yes, they could.

Eidetic Spellcaster, tattooed spells... ah crap, I'm T1/T2 again. :smalltongue::smalltongue:

They're not unstoppable, IF you have enough encounters per day. If you don't, they will end up slagging the battlefield and then going to bed eventually.

Thing is, while Psions have more flexible individual powers, they have a much lower number of spells known. So the DM can prepare against a Psion better than a Wizard or a Divine Caster. Unless the DM actually looks at his players spells prepared each day, which I don't. I think it is unfair.

Story

2013-02-08, 04:41 PM

Don't Wizards normally prepare their spells during gameplay? Having the DM check over it every day would slow things down a lot.

Admittedly, you'll usually be preparing the same things every day, or preparing one of a general set of lists.

The Glyphstone

2013-02-08, 04:44 PM

Unless they acquire them via Psychic Chirurgery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm).

Strictly speaking, that's not 'free'. XP is an extremely unpredictable resource because of how many different ways groups handle it/dish it out.

Mongrel

2013-02-08, 05:00 PM

I'm a little late here too, but because no one has mentioned this yet I figured I'd bring it up: remember that Pyrokineticist does not contribute to the manifester level of the character. This means that if he's a level 11 psion/pyro he cannot spend 11 power points on a single power. The most he would be able to spend is 10 (if he were a 10 Psion/1 Pyro). I assume he probably has more Pyrokineticist levels than that since you can start taking that class at level 5 or 6 if I remember correctly.

Also:

AC 14?! He doesn't even have anything that gives monsters a miss chance? I can tell you very quickly what to do to make this psion less of a battle-god: put an enemy next to him and full-attack.

Frankly, I'm surprised that a character with a 14 AC has survived to 11th level at all 0.o

Greenish

2013-02-08, 05:08 PM

There are 51 in CPsi alone, so yes, they could.Shame on you, no one should be forced to acknowledge the existence of that book.

Morcleon

2013-02-08, 05:09 PM

Shame on you, no one should be forced to acknowledge the existence of that book.

CPsi is good if you ignore the power nerfs. :smallwink:

Tar Palantir

2013-02-08, 05:49 PM

Frankly, I'm surprised that a character with a 14 AC has survived to 11th level at all 0.o

One of my players has an 11th level melee fighter with AC 9.

Kuulvheysoon

2013-02-08, 06:05 PM

There are 51 in CPsi alone, so yes, they could.

Damn, you're right (and I counted 52. Odd). And they could even spend all their feats/bonus feats on Expanded Knowledge to get more first level powers not on their list.

I bow to your psychic (psionic?) might.

HC Rainbow

2013-02-08, 06:07 PM

I'm a little late here too, but because no one has mentioned this yet I figured I'd bring it up: remember that Pyrokineticist does not contribute to the manifester level of the character. This means that if he's a level 11 psion/pyro he cannot spend 11 power points on a single power. The most he would be able to spend is 10 (if he were a 10 Psion/1 Pyro). I assume he probably has more Pyrokineticist levels than that since you can start taking that class at level 5 or 6 if I remember correctly.

Also:

Frankly, I'm surprised that a character with a 14 AC has survived to 11th level at all 0.o

uhm... Isnt pyrokineticist a discipline?

tyckspoon

2013-02-08, 06:10 PM

uhm... Isnt pyrokineticist a discipline?

Psychokineticist is a discipline; it has most of the Energy (X) powers in it. Pyrokineticist is the PrC that specializes in hitting things with a fire-whip (and some other stuff, but the fire-whip is the most useful one.) AFAIK the character Rektro has been asking about is the first one, not the second.

HC Rainbow

2013-02-08, 06:20 PM

Psychokineticist is a discipline; it has most of the Energy (X) powers in it. Pyrokineticist is the PrC that specializes in hitting things with a fire-whip (and some other stuff, but the fire-whip is the most useful one.) AFAIK the character Rektro has been asking about is the first one, not the second.

OH my mistake, I guess I had those mixed up as well. I dont know too much about psions so...

Mongrel

2013-02-08, 06:56 PM

Psychokineticist is a discipline; it has most of the Energy (X) powers in it. Pyrokineticist is the PrC that specializes in hitting things with a fire-whip (and some other stuff, but the fire-whip is the most useful one.) AFAIK the character Rektro has been asking about is the first one, not the second.

Oh, I suppose I may have misread somewhere in the thread too, considering I didn't see any mention of any of the Pyrokineticist's class abilities...Is this guy just a straight Psion or does he have Pyrokineticist levels?

Hiro Protagonest

2013-02-08, 07:07 PM

CPsi is good if you ignore the power nerfs. :smallwink:

So basically, it's good until you decide to download the errata for it.

The only good thing I can recall WotC errata doing is giving Scouts Disable Device. Then they turned around in the exact same section and made it so you couldn't play your horse archer skirmisher.

Morcleon

2013-02-08, 07:09 PM

So basically, it's good until you decide to download the errata for it.

The only good thing I can recall WotC errata doing is giving Scouts Disable Device. Then they turned around in the exact same section and made it so you couldn't play your horse archer skirmisher.

I was referring to things like the astral construct limit of one at a time, the energy missile DC nerf, the rule that metacreativity powers that deal a certain damage type don't bypass the DR that they normally would, and similar.

lord_khaine

2013-02-08, 07:21 PM

I was referring to things like the astral construct limit of one at a time, the energy missile DC nerf, the rule that metacreativity powers that deal a certain damage type don't bypass the DR that they normally would, and similar.

I dont considder this a nerf, but the errata of a stupid typing mistake in line with the number of skillpoints a swordsage gains at level 1.

Morcleon

2013-02-08, 07:26 PM

I dont considder this a nerf, but the errata of a stupid typing mistake in line with the number of skillpoints a swordsage gains at level 1.

Swordsage skill points is rather obviously a typo.

If you compare the energy missile augment text...

For every additional power point you spend, this power’s damage increases by one die (d6) and its save DC increases by 1.

...with, say, the energy ball augment text...

For every additional power point you spend, this power’s damage increases by one die (d6). For each extra two dice of damage, this power’s save DC increases by 1.

...I find it hard to see how it could be a typing mistake. It seems rather deliberately different.