OOA and threatening

[Harugami]

If you need to be threatening squares adjacent to you for them to get an attack of opportunity whats to prevent me from rolling a child witch or oracle with only touch attacks and no weapons. If she is a child(no armor maybe a hello kitty backpack and a dress) she wont seem threatening and if her magic is strong enough I could maim or disorient an opponent easily if I were to slight of hand this attack she would still seem like a rather nonthreatening character and as long as an opponent isn't of the evil alignment they would have no reason to attack me(seeing how I have nothing of value). So whats to stop me from skipping around the battlefield maiming people via touch of idiocy or command words of throw weapon up?

[andromax]

Threatening in D&D(or rather, Threatened Squares) means that you don't have to move to attack someone in a particular square. If you are unarmed and aren't proficient fighting unarmed you don't threaten. The enemy in the square next to you holding a great axe still threatens his adjacent squares, independent of what squares you threaten.

[Duke of Urrel]

If you need to be threatening squares adjacent to you for them to get an attack of opportunity whats to prevent me from rolling a child witch or oracle with only touch attacks and no weapons.

If you're able to make a touch attack, it's because your open hand holds a magical charge, which qualifies you as armed, even if you are otherwise weaponless.


If she is a child(no armor maybe a hello kitty backpack and a dress) she wont seem threatening and if her magic is strong enough I could maim or disorient an opponent easily

I think you could play that trick once, but then your opponent would surely be wary of you, I think, no matter how innocent you look!


if I were to slight of hand this attack she would still seem like a rather nonthreatening character and as long as an opponent isn't of the evil alignment they would have no reason to attack me(seeing how I have nothing of value). So whats to stop me from skipping around the battlefield maiming people via touch of idiocy or command words of throw weapon up?

I don't know how it works to make an attack with Sleight of Hand skill (but I don't know everything). I think your clever disguise may enable you to make surprise attacks against unsuspecting creatures who don't know you, but not against wary creatures that you have already attacked before. Sleight of Hand skill can enable you to perform nonviolent actions without being noticed, but no creature can fail to notice being targeted by harmful magic.

[andromax]

If you're able to make a touch attack, it's because your open hand holds a magical charge, which qualifies you as armed, even if you are otherwise weaponless.


It's kind of a moot point, because he she (avatar?) has a misconception of what 'threatening squares' means.

[BowStreetRunner]

A Threatened Square (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Threatened-Squares) is a square into which you can make a melee attack. If you are unarmed, you generally do not threaten any squares. However, holding a touch attack spell counts as being armed.

[Harugami]

If a magics duration is instant and I make a sleight of hand check to poke him activating the spell at the moment of contact I would say its fairly nonthreatening until the spell resolves not sure how the whole fighting bit happens I always heal and when I'm dming its mostly taken care I trust the party not to screw me over or cheat. Reading that over its kinda pitiful for the 2 years I have been playing

[andromax]

If a magics duration is instant and I make a sleight of hand check to poke him activating the spell at the moment of contact I would say its fairly nonthreatening until the spell resolves not sure how the whole fighting bit happens I always heal and when I'm dming its mostly taken care I trust the party not to screw me over or cheat. Reading that over its kinda pitiful for the 2 years I have been playing

I understood maybe 1/4 of that. Masking a touch spell with sleight of hands is not a generally legal use of sleight of hands. Perhaps you know that.

[Duke of Urrel]

I think, Harugami, that you and the rest of us have different concepts in mind when we use the word "threatening."

Andromax and BowStreetRunner are both speaking of the tactical threat that you pose to other combatants, not because of your appearance or even your intention, but merely because of your ability to make mêlée attacks into game squares next to yours.

But I think you are more interested in whether your appearance seems threatening to observers, and whether this may enable you to take them by surprise when you suddenly attack them. In my opinion, this trick should depend more on Disguise skill (if you're wearing a disguise) than upon Sleight-of-Hand skill (which in my experience isn't used for attacking at all). If you're not wearing a disguise, maybe it's Bluff skill that you need to use to act innocent until the moment you make a mêlée touch attack and discharge a spell.

It can be very tricky, even for an experienced dungeon master, to decide when combat begins and everybody needs to roll initiative dice. I would say that if an innocent-looking child secretly packing harmful magic smiles at you, you get only one chance to make a Sense Motive check against her Bluff check. If you fail, you're surprised, and she gets to make a mêlée touch attack against you (maybe with an attack bonus awarded by the dungeon master for her cleverness or your gullibility). But if you succeed, you're wary of her, and you both roll initiative dice to see who acts first.

[BowStreetRunner]

You can only make an attack of opportunity if you are already actively threatening a square when an enemy in that square performs an action that provokes an attack of opportunity. If you aren't threatening them when they take the action, then they simply don't provoke at attack of opportunity from you.

From the SRD: "An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you."

So the enemy needs to

Take an action that would normally provoke an attack of opportunity,
take that action in a square that you threaten,
and of course, take the action while you still haven't used up all of your attacks of opportunity for the round.

If any of those conditions aren't satisfied, no AoO occurs.

[Ranting Fool]

If she is a child(no armor maybe a hello kitty backpack and a dress) she wont seem threatening and if her magic is strong enough I could maim or disorient an opponent easily

If I were to ever put in a cute little child with a hello kitty backpack (or some such) the people I play with would be MASSIVELY afraid and worried that she is some sort of daemon princes about to destroy the world!.... You know I'm tempted to throw this in somewhere just to see them freak out trying to detect evil / thoughts / sense motive.

[Harugami]

So threatening isn't what I think it is but I can use bluff to get them to think my party is after me and when they turn their backs command one to lie prone and jam my hand through the one guys back pull out his spine and then command the other to eat it. Alignment wise this sort of deal would work as long as they aren't evil right? I figured as long as I have no weapons or anything of value on me I wouldn't really be a target for anyone of any alignment so I could get away with this tactic until I gain a reputation for it or fail to kill someone who then alerts others.

[Duke of Urrel]

...and when they turn their backs command one to lie prone and jam my hand through the one guys back pull out his spine and then command the other to eat it.

Speaking reflexively from the standpoint of a dungeon master, I'd say that firstly, the command to "lie prone" exceeds the word limit of every Command spell that I know. However, I think you could use the word "fall" to achieve the same effect. Secondly, "jamming your hand through some guy's back" to "pull out his spine" is not something that you can just do (certainly not with a Sleight of Hand check) unless you're an assassin with the ability to make a death attack (and even then, I think you'd just sever the spine, not pull the whole thing out).


Alignment wise this sort of deal would work as long as they aren't evil right?

Sure, as long as you yourself ARE Evil. Feeding a victim's spine to another enemy? I think you enjoy over-the-top cruelty just a little too much to qualify as merely Neutral.


I figured as long as I have no weapons or anything of value on me I wouldn't really be a target for anyone of any alignment so I could get away with this tactic until I gain a reputation for it or fail to kill someone who then alerts others.

True enough, but as soon as somebody survives your assassination attempt and you do get that reputation, you'll become a target for lots of creatures, of various alignments – unless they are all (justifiably) scared senseless at the sight of you. I'm inclined to agree with Ranting Fool on this. Nobody who knows your character will ever look at "Hello Kitty" the same way again.

[andromax]

and then command the other to eat it.

Oh man, you're just gonna give away a perfectly good spine?!


Alignment wise this sort of deal would work as long as they aren't evil right?
If it would work on non-evil creatures it would certainly work on evil creatures. If we're talking about dominate person or the like, it would probably get a separate save to avoid become a cannibal as this is usual against one's nature. How are you commanding them to do such terrible things?


I think you enjoy over-the-top cruelty just a little too much to qualify as merely Neutral.

I know! This thread got pretty funny. I'm getting a Battle Royale/Hunger games vibe from the OP.

[Harugami]

well the evil alignment says you destroy innocent life as opposed to good which stats you protect it and when I say lie prone I meant the word magic command which has fall as a word you can use. as a witch class I was thinking of eventually getting cook people Cook People (Su): The witch can create fabulous spells by cooking an intelligent humanoid creature in her cauldron, either alive or dead. Using this hex creates one meal or serving of food of the witch’s choice, typically a delicious stew or a dough suitable for cookies, pastries, or other desserts. Cooking the victim takes 1 hour. Eating the food provides one of the following benefits for 1 hour: age resistance, bear’s endurance, bull’s strength, cat’s grace, eagle’s splendor, fox’s cunning, neutralize poison (instantaneous), owl’s wisdom, remove disease (instantaneous). Alternatively, the witch can shape the dough into a Small, human-like creature, animating it as a homunculus for 1 hour. The witch must have the cauldron hex to select this hex. Using this hex or knowingly eating its food is an evil act. which would make it easier to feed the party, I think making the word magic command (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power/effect-words/simple-order) go from first to third lvl says I can use any command words so "eat this" would count right? or maybe complex order (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power/effect-words/complex-order) would be better suited to the task if I could find a way to trick him. I never have been one to fight fair or even use weapons but I love command and healing magic so all I need now is leaden fist to punch a hole in him via called shots or maybe some sort of improved nat weapon for witches claw thingy nails I think its called.

[Duke of Urrel]

well the evil alignment says you destroy innocent life as opposed to good which stats you protect it and when I say lie prone I meant the word magic command which has fall as a word you can use. as a witch class I was thinking of eventually getting cook people which would make it easier to feed the party, I think making the word magic command go from first to third lvl says I can use any command words so "eat this" would count right? or maybe would be better suited to the task if I could find a way to trick him. I never have been one to fight fair or even use weapons but I love command and healing magic so all I need now is leaden fist to punch a hole in him via called shots or maybe some sort of improved nat weapon for witches claw thingy nails I think its called.

Ah, you're using Pathfinder rules! My apologies. My knowledge of what you can and cannot do is limited to D&D version 3.5.

[Harugami]

From what I understand most of 3.5 carries over even though it is based off 3.75 specifically(or so I've been told) I just assumed most of the base rules carried over because it would make sense that simple stuff like command words and OOA would carry over for the sake of not starting from scratch. sorry for misleading you if I did though.

[BowStreetRunner]

In PF, the allowable command words are

approach
drop
fall
flee
halt

Each has a very specific mechanic that describes exactly what it does. That's it. All of the creative options to use other words have been removed.

[Harugami]

In PF, the allowable command words are

approach
drop
fall
flee
halt

Each has a very specific mechanic that describes exactly what it does. That's it. All of the creative options to use other words have been removed.

Boost: This wordspell can use any target word. Boosting this effect word increases its level by 3.
how does this bit work then can I say eat is the word I want to use?
Complex order on the other hand I could say swallow this thing or use beguiling gift(witch spell makes them immediately use whatever you give them ie eat item or drink potion)

[Douglas]

Boost: This wordspell can use any target word. Boosting this effect word increases its level by 3.
how does this bit work then can I say eat is the word I want to use?
That sounds like it's from the words of power (www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power) system, which is completely different and separate from the Command (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/command) spell. Boost, as a Word in that system, is a modifier that you can apply to other Words from the same system. It has no interaction whatsoever with normal spells like Command.

Edit: And I see that Command (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power/effect-words/simple-order) is also a Word in the Words of Power system. Applying Boost means you can combine it with any of these (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power/target-words) instead of being forced to use only this one (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power/target-words/selected). It does not in any way change the options for what commands you can give.

As for the original issue about attacks of opportunity, I think you got things backwards: when you do something that provokes an attack of opportunity from someone else, whether he gets a free attack depends on whether he threatens you, not whether you threaten him. "Threaten" being defined as "capable of making a melee attack against the relevant square with a currently wielded weapon".

Pretending to be a child, etc., might convince an enemy to voluntarily decide to not take advantage of the opportunity, but that is entirely a roleplaying matter, not a rules mechanic.

[Harugami]

That sounds like it's from the words of power (www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/words-of-power) system, which is completely different and separate from the Command (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/command) spell. Boost, as a Word in that system, is a modifier that you can apply to other Words from the same system. It has no interaction whatsoever with normal spells like Command.

As for the original issue about attacks of opportunity, I think you got things backwards: when you do something that provokes an attack of opportunity from someone else, whether he gets a free attack depends on whether he threatens you, not whether you threaten him. "Threaten" being defined as "capable of making a melee attack against the relevant square with a currently wielded weapon".

Pretending to be a child, etc., might convince an enemy to voluntarily decide to not take advantage of the opportunity, but that is entirely a roleplaying matter, not a rules mechanic.

I under stand boost and simple order are 2 separate words but how do they work together it says something about picking any target word, does that mean I can use this as a cone or line attack or does it mean I can use other command words like eat or dance?

[Douglas]

Every Word spell is a combination of, at a minimum, one effect Word and one target Word. By default, the Simple Order effect Word can only be combined with the Selected target Word. If you boost it, you can use any target Word you want instead.

Yes, this means a boosted Simple Order can be cast as a Line, Cone, Burst, Barrier, or even Personal if you want to get silly. It does nothing to change the options for what the effect actually does, just who it affects.

[Harugami]

that's actually much cooler then I initial though it was, cone of drop and fall in a line sounds way more fun then eat your buddies spine.