Knowledge Devotion and Knowledge: Local

[Diarmuid]

My group hasnt really used KD much in the past and while discussing it recently we got a little stuck with the usage of the feat with regards to "Humanoids".

Curious how other DM's rule this application of the Feat.

Does a single Knowledge: Local skill get used for any humanoids no matter their origin?

Do you need the K:Local skill for where the fight is taking place.

Do you need the K:Local skill for the origin region for your target?

Just curious to get a broader opinion base to help my group figure what's going to work best for us.

[Big Fau]

The Forgotten Realms campaign setting enforces the idea of using different Knowledge (Local) skills for different regions, but I've always found that annoying. While people can be very different, Knowledge Devotion doesn't really care about culture so much as it cares about physiology and other surface details.

[Mnemnosyne]

If you're using separate Knowledge: Local for each region (which makes sense), it's my opinion that you should add up the total ranks in all of these sub-knowledges, for the purpose of identifying humanoids. I don't pay too much attention to the origin regions of targets, most of the time, unless they're extraordinarily rare creatures.

At the very least, any humanoids that can be found in more than one area should have the ranks devoted to those areas added together for the purpose of identification. After all, the species is the same no matter where you encounter them. So, if you're fighting an elf, then any knowledge: local for any area that elves can be found in, at all, counts (this is probably pretty much every area that exists). If you're fighting a Locathah, it might be fair to say that your Knowledge: Local (Anauroch) doesn't count, because there aren't any Locathah in Anauroch.

[Pechvarry]

If you're using separate Knowledge: Local for each region (which makes sense), it's my opinion that you should add up the total ranks in all of these sub-knowledges, for the purpose of identifying humanoids.

To a maximum of character level +3.

I had a player suggest that his ranks were in Knowledge: Local (right here), and that Knowledge: The Planes is just Knowledge: Local (all).

[Diarmuid]

I dont see anywhere in the feat description where it specifies that your knowledge is about the physiology of the creatures as opposed to knowing their tactics, tendencies, weaknesses, or anything else that might give you an edge while fighting them.

Stacking the skills seems pretty ridiculous as it circumvents the max ranks for skills that is likely intended to be a limiting factor for the check. Consider a 1st level character with 4 ranks in 4 different local skills. That character would end up with something like +18-20 depending on Int which seems a bit much.

I think I understand the issue now. FR changes the basic function of the K: Local skill by forcing a choice of region. Non setting specific D&D has no such distinction, so K:Local as a single skill applies no matter where you are.

Maybe it's just that I play a lot of FR, but that seems...very unrealistic to me.

[Story]

Under standard rules, there is only a single Knowledge Local skill which applies everywhere. If you're houseruling that, you'll have to figure out the differences yourself.

[Toliudar]

IMO, Knowledge (Local) is a crappy name. All other knowledges are about a branch of knowledge, and most can be roughly mapped onto some kind of branch of science or humanities (at least, closely enough that it puts my brain at ease). But knowledge local, seems to suggest a broad range of knowledge about a particular, if poorly defined, area. Taken literally, it would seem to subsume all the other knowledges for a geographic region. If I have knowledge local for Waterdeep, wouldn't I know about the history, architecture, nobility, geography etc of the place?

Instead, I tend to use Knowledge Local as a kind of 'sociology' knowledge. You understand how people interact, and can better predict how humanoids will react in certain situations. For Knowledge Devotion, you then get better at figuring out how humanoids will react in combat. Still lame, but a tiny bit less so.

[Deophaun]

Maybe it's just that I play a lot of FR, but that seems...very unrealistic to me.
Unrealistic, perhaps. But FR's method makes the skill pretty much useless if your group actually travels.

[Unusual Muse]

The way I look at it, Knowledge (Planes) gives you knowledge about any creature from any plane, despite the fact that each plane is a unique "region" with its own cultures, etc. If Kn(P) is treated as a universal knowledge of creatures of Type: Outsider, then Kn(L) should also be treated as universal knowledge of creatures of Type:Humanoid. If you start breaking one of them down into "regions," you have to break them all down.

[Diarmuid]

I wouldnt say useless, I would say more realistic.

If it is indeed meant to know local customs, where to buy the best goods, etc for a given area...the same roll shouldnt really be applicable in your home town compared with a place you've literally never visited before.

Less blanket usable...sure, but useless no. In our group it's one of the more common skills to get picked up when on leveling, especially if the party has spent a decent amount of time in a given area over the last level.

[Unusual Muse]

I wouldnt say useless, I would say more realistic.

If it is indeed meant to know local customs, where to buy the best goods, etc for a given area...the same roll shouldnt really be applicable in your home town compared with a place you've literally never visited before.

Less blanket usable...sure, but useless no. In our group it's one of the more common skills to get picked up when on leveling, especially if the party has spent a decent amount of time in a given area over the last level.

The same rationale could also be applied to Knowledge(Planes)... just because you know the local customs of Arboria doesn't mean you know jack about how things work on Mechanus. This is a more realistic approach, but it definitely complicates things immensely.

[Deophaun]

I wouldnt say useless, I would say more realistic.

If it is indeed meant to know local customs, where to buy the best goods, etc for a given area...the same roll shouldnt really be applicable in your home town compared with a place you've literally never visited before.
As I said, useless.

And no, gather information tells you where to buy the best goods. That's the skill you're looking for. Knowledge (Local) is, like all Knowledge skills, academic learning. You might know the custom, but you know it because you saw that one National Geographic special, not because you've actually lived there for any appreciable time. Otherwise, considering how few NPCs actually have Knowledge (Local) on their list, the people who live in those areas would be ignorant of the custom. Which means that they'll be very confused when you try to apply your Knowledge (Local) check.

[Big Fau]

I wouldnt say useless, I would say more realistic.

If it is indeed meant to know local customs, where to buy the best goods, etc for a given area...the same roll shouldnt really be applicable in your home town compared with a place you've literally never visited before.

Less blanket usable...sure, but useless no. In our group it's one of the more common skills to get picked up when on leveling, especially if the party has spent a decent amount of time in a given area over the last level.

This is a game where your devotion to the concept of Knowledge grants you greater skill at stabbing things. Realism took Exit 137 a few hundred miles back.

[Diarmuid]

As I said, useless.

And no, gather information tells you where to buy the best goods. That's the skill you're looking for. Knowledge (Local) is, like all Knowledge skills, academic learning. You might know the custom, but you know it because you saw that one National Geographic special, not because you've actually lived there for any appreciable time. Otherwise, considering how few NPCs actually have Knowledge (Local) on their list, the people who live in those areas would be ignorant of the custom. Which means that they'll be very confused when you try to apply your Knowledge (Local) check.

Ok, well you nitpicked one of my terms (where to buy best goods) but that doesnt completely refute my whole statement.



Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)


Customs is clearly listed as something covered by the skill per RAW. Those same locals can make untrained checks to know anything that a DC 10 would get them so it's not like they wouldnt know anything about the places they live in.

@Fau : Forgive me if I can realistically justify that studying an enemy could give bonuses related to fighting them. I'm pretty sure this is a time honored tradition used by most militaries and by just about any sporting team when facing a particular opponent.

Anyway, this is getting pretty far off the topic. I was hoping more people might have a well thought out houserule they use for this topic considering how popular FR is and how widespread the use of this feat seems to be on the board. Thanks all for the thoughts, guess my group and I will keep working out how to best rule the topic.

[Fouredged Sword]

This is why I have removed that knowledge from my games. We use Knowledge Arcane for arcane spellcasters, Martial Lore for martial characters and skill monkeys, and religion for divine casters. It just made more sense that way. If you have class levels, this allows a player to guess a class/level for the monster they are looking at as a separate check to the one that they are guessing the nature of the monster itself.

The party Warblade may not know that the ogre is an ogre, but he can tell he has skills as a crusader becuse of his knowledge (martial lore) and can guess that he has at least 2 HD from class levels in that class. The party wizard can tell the ogre has zero arcane caster class levels with knowledge arcane.

[Slipperychicken]

Knowledge: (Local) would be more accurately called Anthropology or Knowledge (Anthropology). We covered this a while ago. Maybe I'll dig up the thread sometime.


Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)


Definition of anthropology

: the science of human beings; especially : the study of human beings and their ancestors through time and space and in relation to physical character, environmental and social relations, and culture

[Diarmuid]

SC - Thanks for that, that does make sense.

Do you have any thoughts on how to properly apply the skill as it exists in FR (where you have to choose a Region for each iteration of the skill) with regards to Humanoids for the Knowledge devotion feat?

[Deophaun]

Customs is clearly listed as something covered by the skill per RAW. Those same locals can make untrained checks to know anything that a DC 10 would get them so it's not like they wouldnt know anything about the places they live in.
Which means so can the person who's never been there before in their life.

You are in a strange situation where, if you need to hit a DC of 11 or above to know the custom, then it's not a custom, because the people living there don't know it. Everything must be DC 10 or below, which makes investing ranks pointless.

[Slipperychicken]

SC - Thanks for that, that does make sense.

Do you have any thoughts on how to properly apply the skill as it exists in FR (where you have to choose a Region for each iteration of the skill) with regards to Humanoids for the Knowledge devotion feat?

If Knowledge: (Local) can cover creatures as physically and culturally distant as Gnomes and Orcs, it should work across continents. I'd say use the highest regional knowledge for Knowledge Devotion.

[Mnemnosyne]

Stacking the skills seems pretty ridiculous as it circumvents the max ranks for skills that is likely intended to be a limiting factor for the check. Consider a 1st level character with 4 ranks in 4 different local skills. That character would end up with something like +18-20 depending on Int which seems a bit much.
Yes, I forgot to mention a limit, as Pechvarry rightfully discerned; even adding together several versions of it, I would probably cap it at level +3, so that a level 1 character can't just dump all their ranks into Knowledge: Local and get massive knowledge checks on humanoids.

So, add up all ranks from any area where those particular humanoids can be found at all, up to a maximum of level +3. Given the relatively short list of humanoids, and the fact that most of them can be found in most areas, it's probably easiest to assume that an area does contain any particular humanoid, unless there's a strong reason for thinking it doesn't, like aquatic creatures in the Anauroch. This allows the player to diversify in Knowledge skills without hurting their Devotion check.

[Pechvarry]

Anyway, this is getting pretty far off the topic. I was hoping more people might have a well thought out houserule they use for this topic considering how popular FR is and how widespread the use of this feat seems to be on the board. Thanks all for the thoughts, guess my group and I will keep working out how to best rule the topic.

2nd response of the thread. My 1st post gives you the simplest fix possible.

EDIT: Is it a swordsage if there's a 5 hour gap? Silly not refreshing all day.

[tadkins]

Someone devoted to knowledge could make it a point to quickly find out about as much of a new place as they can, making the skill somewhat relevant if they have to travel.

[Coidzor]

Does a single Knowledge: Local skill get used for any humanoids no matter their origin?

Yes. Unless you're playing in Forgotten Realms or possibly straight 3e rather than 3.5/3.X there's only Knowledge: Local by RAW, not Knowledge: Local (Region/City).


Do you need the K:Local skill for where the fight is taking place.

No, that doesn't make any sense how you'd know about orcs in City A while not knowing an orc from a handsaw in City B. It's *silly* even by the standards of D&D rules oversights.


Do you need the K:Local skill for the origin region for your target?

No. This one is potentially more reasonable, but only if the races arose in nice little neat boxed-in-areas and mostly just stay in those nice little neat and segregated boxes.


I dont see anywhere in the feat description where it specifies that your knowledge is about the physiology of the creatures as opposed to knowing their tactics, tendencies, weaknesses, or anything else that might give you an edge while fighting them.

OTOH, a half-orc raised amongst, say, Goliaths is going to have different tactics and tendencies and weaknesses as a combatant as opposed to physiologically than a half-orc raised as an orc or a human or a half-orc. And yet would still be covered by knowledge: local despite acting like a Goliath, culturally and in terms of training.

[TuggyNE]

Customs is clearly listed as something covered by the skill per RAW. Those same locals can make untrained checks to know anything that a DC 10 would get them so it's not like they wouldnt know anything about the places they live in.

That's really a poor line of argument; as Deophaun mentioned, that doesn't make any distinction between locals, well-read strangers, and clueless tourists. Worse, attempting to use circumstance bonuses to checks won't help; the DC is the problem, not the check result. What's more, most orcs (for example) won't be able to make that DC 10 reliably anyway (-1 Int modifier, anyone?), so orcs would essentially have no customs at all.

What you can do is stuff circumstance modifiers to the DC itself, rename the skill (perhaps Knowledge: Sociology or Knowledge: Society or Knowledge: Civilization or something), allow certain untrained checks at higher DCs, and rework the DC framework so that some bits of information are at DC 5 or even lower. I believe all of these are reasonable patches to the rules.

[Diarmuid]

Yes. Unless you're playing in Forgotten Realms or possibly straight 3e rather than 3.5/3.X there's only Knowledge: Local by RAW, not Knowledge: Local (Region/City).

I completely neglected to include the fact that my group primarily plays in FR, so we're using the regional variant for K:Local which is the crux of where the confusion comes in.

Sorry for leaving that crucial bit out of the OP.

[Gavinfoxx]

First, get a list of Humanoid typed creatures that you WANT to deal extra damage to. There aren't that many Humanoids in the system.

Then, ask your GM to place the creatures in the various FR regions, as far as Knowledge Local goes.

Then take a rank in each relevant Knowledge Local.

[Shook_One]

I completely neglected to include the fact that my group primarily plays in FR, so we're using the regional variant for K:Local which is the crux of where the confusion comes in.

So, in order to make use of the Knowledge: Local aspect of Knowledge Devotion, are you suggesting that a character would need Knowledge: Local (every-region-in-Faerun-taken-individually)? That seems excessive. What happens when non-humans have different home regions? Example: The Great Rift, The Smoking Mountain and Turmish are all home regions for gold dwarves; which knowledge would you need in order to apply Knowledge Devotion to a gold dwarf?

The Knowledge: Local skill governs humanoids, according to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm) - that seems simple enough, no?

[Gavinfoxx]

Example: The Great Rift, The Smoking Mountain and Turmish are all home regions for gold dwarves; which knowledge would you need in order to apply Knowledge Devotion to a gold dwarf?

Any one of those gets you Gold Dwarf, I guess.