Can an Ego score of 142 be beaten?

[pwykersotz]

So, I got a god-like character to create a psionic equivalent of the Vest of the Archmagi (MiC 145). Given the nature of the NPC, the item has mental stats up the whazoo and a powerful special purpose. All totaled, it has an Ego score of 142.

Currently, I'm level 20, Spell-to-Power Erudite 15 / Arch-Psion 5. Feats are a non-issue, the GM allows the purchase of feats for 10k exp a pop, and I have a pool of 200k sitting around.

In case you can't tell, this is a very high power campaign, but there are some small restrictions. No infinite loops, and for flavor reasons in the world, no Tome of Battle. Also, most location specific boosts will do no good, like planar touchstones or that hole that grants Iron Will. I also have very little access to Mind Switch shenanigans, and while I can do limited Greater Metamorphosis abuse, I won't retain anything from it when I revert back. I also will be making the save on this things terms, so I won't have time to manifest anything other than an immediate action.

My current Will save with my powers boosting it is 48.
12 class / 10 wis mod / 5 enh Cloak of Resistance / 6 insight Defensive Precog (or 20 if I MoP) / 1 misc

Is this surmountable before epic?

[Spuddles]

Try using a lillitu from FC1.

[Telonius]

Never thought too much about this one, but would a Psionic Mind Blank be able to do it? It lasts a day, so you'd just have to keep renewing it. (Which you'd probably be doing anyway).

[Flickerdart]

Never thought too much about this one, but would a Psionic Mind Blank be able to do it? It lasts a day, so you'd just have to keep renewing it. (Which you'd probably be doing anyway).
For bonus points, Extend it, so there's no moment where it's down.

[silverwolfer]

Threaten to dip it in mud, and make it dirty, see if it submits to you after that.

[Douglas]

1) Learn Contingency, if you haven't already
2) Buy a Ring of Spell Storing
3) Get a cleric friend to cast Surge of Fortune into the ring
4) Cast Contingency (Surge of Fortune), set to trigger when an ego contest occurs
5) When you conflict with your item, expend the spell as an immediate action to get an automatic natural 20

Tada, your modifier no longer matters for this.

The down side is that you'll need to get another casting of Surge of Fortune and redo the Contingency every time it gets used. It might be worth seeing if you can talk your DM into letting you spend a feat or two to use spell-to-power on a divine spell instead of arcane. Then you could learn Surge of Fortune yourself and not be dependent on the cleric buddy and ring any more.

[pwykersotz]

The Lilitu is a great idea, but based on experience my GM will rule that I am already using the item. It dominating me won't fall under his idea of that ability. I'll keep that one in mind though...

As for the Mind Blank, he might go for it, but without a contestation, I probably would receive no benefits from the item.

I can probably arrange the Surge of Fortune. I'll just have to be careful about using it. Our game uses the rules for bonuses/penalties for nat 20's/1's, so forcing those gets a little...well, the game wouldn't be quite as fun.

Any other ideas would continue to be welcomed.

[Analytica]

It's problematic, it just says a Will save DC = EGO, so immunities do not really help. Either find some way to accept its dominance or find some way to make any Will save. Check whether it's when donning it or every which when?

[Godskook]

The down side is that you'll need to get another casting of Surge of Fortune and redo the Contingency every time it gets used. It might be worth seeing if you can talk your DM into letting you spend a feat or two to use spell-to-power on a divine spell instead of arcane. Then you could learn Surge of Fortune yourself and not be dependent on the cleric buddy and ring any more.

Assuming powers can be put into rings of spell-storing and/or there's a psionic equivalent, he can simply use Wish to get the Surge of Fortune casting.

[Magnera]

Cast Wish and wish for it to submit before your will. Easy!

[nedz]

Lets see:
This is about Will save optimisation, obviously.

You have already done the standard tricks and have got it to +48, and you're 96 short. I think you are going to be a supermodel.

This old thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) may help, but there are limits. What are your stats anyway ?

[Spuddles]

Would Schism work? I believe if you fail a will save with schism up, you lose the schism. Can't be arsed to look it up atm.

The complete book of eldritch might, from malhavoc press, probably has something in there that would help you.

[pwykersotz]

My current stats with +5 inherents across the board and full +6 enhancement gear are: Str 25, Dex 26, Con 35, Int 49, Wis 30, Cha 35.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, my suggestion is slightly different.

Tome of Battle has a Maneuver which lets you make a Concentration check in place of a Will save. Getting a use-activated item of that maneuver means you only need to optimize the Concentration check. Getting a custom item of circumstance bonus to a skill check is cheap at the price, and an Item Familiar lets you effectively increase your ranks by 50%.

After all, if a Truenamer can optimize a skill to be able to hit the ridiculous DCs required, you shouldn't have too many problems.

[Fyermind]

OP said no Tome of Battle. If you can find a way to suffer no penalties from a failed will save (reactive immunity to failing a will save perhaps?) you can take 20 outside of combat.

Also, if you find the right casters, you can get most spells as arcane spells (dragons can cast off the entire cleric list as arcane sorcerer spells as well as many domains and the entire druid list (child of eberron ftw).

[Urpriest]

Cast Wish and wish for it to submit before your will. Easy!

Somehow I don't think an item of arbitrary DM-screw can be foiled by using a spell in a way that explicitly invites additional DM-screw.

That said, one aspect of this idea is valid: you need to change the item's point of view. How are its saving throws? Perhaps you could hit it with Mindrape, or something similar.

[nedz]

Er, that should work — except that the OP said and for flavour reasons ... no Tome of Battle

Is there any other way of getting Will as a skill check ?

Ed: Swordsaged Ninja'd (I guess no TOB here either)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So wait... Spell-to-power Erudites with Greater Metamorphasis abuse is on the table, but not ToB? :smallsigh:

Seriously, what does this item bring to the table that you would *NEED* it that badly for? By level 20, as an STP Erudite, you are well beyond mere gear considerations.

[herrhauptmann]

So, I got a god-like character to create a psionic equivalent of the Vest of the Archmagi (MiC 145).

Ok, I see nothing wrong with that.


Given the nature of the NPC, the item has mental stats up the whazoo and a powerful special purpose. All totaled, it has an Ego score of 142.

What is the nature of this NPC?
Why does he want to make an item intelligent if it's going to fight you every step of the way? Why would you want this item if it's going to fight you?

What are the consequences of a failed ego check?
Item stops working for while, or item takes over?
Protection from Evil/good/law/chaos should stop it from taking over. Extending+persisting that spell should be a LOT easier than extending a mindblank.

[Ravens_cry]

Something tells me that a DM that making a DC that most characters would only make in, on average, 20 times, basically DC 'screw you!', would not welcome tricks that that defeat his plot guardrails magic item.

[Coidzor]

Something tells me that a DM that making a DC that most characters would only make in, on average, 20 times, basically DC 'screw you!' would not welcome tricks that that defeat his plot guardrails magic item.

Well if that's the case the solution is simple, social engineering.

[Ravens_cry]

Well if that's the case the solution is simple, social engineering.
All D&D problems can be solved with social engineering.:smallamused:

[Ernir]

What is the item's personality like? Is getting Ego-enslaved by it a Very Bad Thing?

[Jane_Smith]

Id use the disjunction on it just to see the dm's jaw shatter the floor. :smallamused: Or take that that feat that lets you "disenchant" any magic item to fuel new objects you craft.

[Jack_Simth]

Id use the disjunction on it just to see the dm's jaw shatter the floor. :smallamused: Or take that that feat that lets you "disenchant" any magic item to fuel new objects you craft.
That is an Artificer class feature, Retain Essence.

I'm not sure if there's a feat for it anywhere, but, well... the Spell to Power Erudite can just Simulacrum one up, no?

[shaikujin]

You can designate it as your item familiar.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm

Under "Sapience" it says:
The item familiar also gains an Ego score. This last score should not come into play very often—an item familiar is completely loyal to its master, unless its master radically changes alignment or one or the other is affected by some strange compulsion.



As long as you do not radically change alignment (so gradual change is fine?), or affected by some strange compulsion (get immunity?), there shouldn't be any cause to call for a personality conflict check.

[elonin]

There is a section for the item familiar feat that mentions inherited items. The item doesn't really become yours until your ego becomes higher than the item anyway.

Just how opposed is the ego to your alignment? If it is close maybe you can live with it like the railroad device it is.

[shaikujin]

Isn't that section specifically for a character inheriting an existing item familiar from another character (that died)?

Seeing that the OP has commissioned an NPC to create the item for the OP, I believe the inheriting rules do not come into play in this case.

[pwykersotz]

To answer the question of how bad it will be...not too bad. My character is lawful evil aligned, though a recent temporal flux has given him an alternate history that has left him True Neutral. Time will snap back in a couple games, restoring his previous alignment.

The NPC is technically chaotic good, though the item will end up being Neutral with slight good tendencies. I don't expect a ton of fighting, since my character's evil is subtle and longterm, and he'll often do good works to keep up appearances, hopefully keeping the item passive.

The item is also not supposed to be complete GM screw. The GM had plot ideas and I accidentally fell into them with this idea, and an uber item was born. I am intrigued to play out this event as it lies.

That being said, there is the unfortunate possibility of interests conflicting at the wrong time, and I want to be prepared. The GM also likes to play intelligent items as strong-willed and often abrasive, so I expect the item to be a jerk...I just want a few options to put it in its place. Think of it as an arms race against the GM, just on friendly terms. Thus, my desire to beat the save legitimately, and hesitation to use Nat 20's too much.

The item familiar thing has merit, though loyal to me might be loyal in the way that the king's greatest warrior turns on him because clearly he's working against his own interests and just needs a few events "corrected". That being said, I love that idea most so far.

And ToB isn't banned for being OP, it's just not in the world that was initially set up. There's lots of ridiculousness to go around, as you can tell.

[elonin]

Isn't that section specifically for a character inheriting an existing item familiar from another character (that died)?

Seeing that the OP has commissioned an NPC to create the item for the OP, I believe the inheriting rules do not come into play in this case.

I'm bringing up the item familiar text because it seems applicable to this discussion. If the item creator is much higher level than the pc then it may only partially go along with helping the new owner even if handed over willingly.

In my mind the main problem with re-rolls and one time boosts is that depending on how much the item has a problem with what is happening is how often it could force checks.

[shaikujin]

I'm bringing up the item familiar text because it seems applicable to this discussion. If the item creator is much higher level than the pc then it may only partially go along with helping the new owner even if handed over willingly.


Ahh I see.

The way I see this, when the NPC Psion hands over the item, it's still not an item familiar yet. So there's no inheritance rules in place.

Once the OP possess the item (this is a pre-req for the feat), he then picks up the Item Familiar feat to bond this item. Only at this point does it become an item familiar.

From this point on, if the OP pass on this item to another character (say a replacement or heir), that's when the inheritance rules come into play.



Other notes should the OP's DM try to impose a personality check during unfortunate times:
1) Unlike normal intelligent items, the item familiar shares a special bond with the character
2) It costs a feat to establish this bond. Feats are precious (though Item Familiar is actually one of the stronger feats)
3) An item familiar gains it's owner's alignment and will gradually change to match it. So sooner or later, there will be no conflicts. Subject to any special purpose though
4) The Neutral alignment of the item isn't really in direct conflict with Lawful Evil in any case
5) The balancing factor is that if the item is lost or destroyed, you will lose XP and any invested skills/spells

Best to use the justifications sparingly though. If the DM is using it as a plot device for a well planned scenario, it's kind of disheartening for a him to see an entire plot unraveled too easily.