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View Full Version : Squirrel's Cure/Inflict-Spell Fix



mistformsquirrl
2013-02-08, 02:16 PM
This is a quick attempt to make the Cure and Inflict spells more useful and relevant for your average character, largely by drastically increasing their scaling.

Before you read any further, remember that I'm trying to draw these spells up into the realm of actual combat effectiveness. That means considering:

A) How they stack up against equivalent level spells that are competing for those slots. (Yes you can potentially spontaneously cast them, which is nice, but you do have to give up a spell to do it, and thus there's still competition.)

B) Don't just consider the maximum level version of the spell. As huge as you might think 160 potential healing from a level 4 spell is, consider that half of that is completely random. and you can only pull that much healing off potentially at level 20. (Heal, at 150 healed, is guaranteed healing, and has a bunch of negative condition removal too, and also hits it's cap 5 levels earlier.)

C) Don't just compare the spells to blasts - remember that blasting isn't that great as it is and these are Touch range spells.

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That said, I'm very open to criticism; this is just a first draft. My main concern here was putting these spells on a level where you could see casting them IN battle, as opposed to only after battle.

Anyway here's the list:

Cure/Inflict Light Wounds -

1d4+1 per levels, up to a maximum of 5d4+5 at 5th level.

Potentially 25 healing at 5th level.

Cure/Inflict Moderate Wounds -

1d4+2 per level, up to a maximum of 10d4+20 at 10th level.

Potentially 60 healing at level 10.

Cure/Inflict Serious Wounds -

1d4+3 Per Level up to a maximum of 15d4+45

Potentially 105 healing at level 15.

Cure/Inflict Critical Wounds -

1d4+4 per level up to 20d4+80

Potentially 160hp at level 20.


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So there you have it, my quick fix idea for the Cure and Inflict lines of spells.
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HC Rainbow
2013-02-08, 02:32 PM
I love the theory of it, but Cure critical wounds at 20d4 + 80 at level 20, maxed out at 160 points of health
Whereas heal does 10 hp per points per level as you said, cap at 150
However, a maximized cure crit wounds would automatically be a better healing source than Heal, albeit at a slot higher due to maximize spell.

Still, it does seem like a lot of hit points but I do like this system much better than the current one.

All in all, I'd vote yes to put this system in any campaign, and it would give clerics a reason to be using inflict spells.

Great job.

mistformsquirrl
2013-02-08, 03:05 PM
Two things to keep in mind for Maxmized Cure Critical vs Heal - Maximized Cure Critical is what... a level 7 spell? Vs a level 5? And for those extra spell levels you get a whopping 10 points more healing... and lose out on all the condition removal of Heal.

< . .> I just don't see a situation where Maximizing a Cure Critical is going to be a better option than Heal to be honest - by that level 10 HP isn't that big a deal, and a 7th level spell slot is pretty important I'd think.

I'm glad you like it overall though!

HC Rainbow
2013-02-08, 03:56 PM
Two things to keep in mind for Maxmized Cure Critical vs Heal - Maximized Cure Critical is what... a level 7 spell? Vs a level 5? And for those extra spell levels you get a whopping 10 points more healing... and lose out on all the condition removal of Heal.

< . .> I just don't see a situation where Maximizing a Cure Critical is going to be a better option than Heal to be honest - by that level 10 HP isn't that big a deal, and a 7th level spell slot is pretty important I'd think.

I'm glad you like it overall though!

I thought heal was a 6th level spell. Still an extra spell slot or two 10 really isnt worth it. Just feels like the potential with that spell could become ridiculous.

However, like I said before, its a much better system than an 11th level cleric healing 4d6 is kind of pathetic compared to 11d4 + 44. If I was tweaking the campaign I'm running right now I'd definitely make this a rule.

mistformsquirrl
2013-02-08, 04:04 PM
I'm blaming exhaustion - you're right, Heal is a 6th level spell >.<

Jane_Smith
2013-02-08, 04:04 PM
Id also make all cure/inflicts close range spells (25 ft. + 5 ft/2 levels), though require ranged touch attacks unless they target is aware of the attempt and willingly receives it. But that is just me, cause i have always been a fan of the ranged healer from final fantasy, world of warcraft, etc.

ngilop
2013-02-08, 04:08 PM
also heal does a LOT more than just HP healing. it removes blindess, disease, poison insanity and all that goodness.

so i'll keep heal as my main heal go to, not only does it consitianlt out heal the new cure cirtical wounds ( 20d4+80 only averages out to 120-130 HP) and the fact that HP healing is the only thing that does, while i can remove status affects with heal.

HC Rainbow
2013-02-08, 05:33 PM
Id also make all cure/inflicts close range spells (25 ft. + 5 ft/2 levels), though require ranged touch attacks unless they target is aware of the attempt and willingly receives it. But that is just me, cause i have always been a fan of the ranged healer from final fantasy, world of warcraft, etc.

Problem with that is that would make some prestige classes useless. I cant think of the name but theres a cool one that lets clerics use touch attacks at 30 feet, then 60 feet later on, which would be really cool, but if that were a given, then I think clerics would be MUCH more effective which they already are effective, being a full caster that can wear heavy armor with full spellbooks etc.

mistformsquirrl
2013-02-08, 06:01 PM
I intentionally left them as Touch range spells to justify the extreme boost in effectiveness - and it's possible (via PrC or certain alternate class features) to deliver cures at range anyway; so I felt making that inherent to the ability might be a bridge too far < . .> That said, I could easily see a DM allowing someone to add that modification if they still felt heals were too weak.

@ngilop - Right, I wasn't trying to replace Heal or anything hehe; merely making the cure spells actually useful in comparison to what they are (generally, not).

That and you get cures a fair bit sooner than Heal, so there's that.

HC Rainbow
2013-02-08, 06:13 PM
I intentionally left them as Touch range spells to justify the extreme boost in effectiveness - and it's possible (via PrC or certain alternate class features) to deliver cures at range anyway; so I felt making that inherent to the ability might be a bridge too far < . .> That said, I could easily see a DM allowing someone to add that modification if they still felt heals were too weak.

@ngilop - Right, I wasn't trying to replace Heal or anything hehe; merely making the cure spells actually useful in comparison to what they are (generally, not).

That and you get cures a fair bit sooner than Heal, so there's that.

also true.

The thing I really liked about it was not only the dice scaling but how you increased the +1 to a 2, 3 and 4, Which means an 11th level cleric casting Cure Critical Wounds and rolls 1's for days still heals for a pretty nice 44 55? hit points. Its not something to cheer for joy over when you could've gotten more but it helps those of us who cant max dice rolls like a champ.

mistformsquirrl
2013-02-08, 06:29 PM
Yeah that was kind of a random idea I had while trying to figure out how to pull this off. At first I tried just adding a ton of D8s; and then I tried D6s with +1 with the cap going higher for the higher level spells - but ultimately that kept ending up with weird situations where you'd have Cure Light Wounds being nearly as good as Cure Moderate Wounds when you got the latter...

< . .> The extra +s were just kind of a random thought that seemed to work out well when I gave it some thought.

I think it might make for a decent fix to blasting spells as well honestly - halve the die size and add a + bonus of some kind based on the level of the spell. You end up with a similar maximum potential damage, but a more reliable spell overall.

(Ex: Fireball going from 1d6 per level to 1d3+3 per level - both get you a cap of 60, but the latter has a minimum damage of 40 at 10th level, while the other can be as low as 10.)

<. .> But I'm not really that great at math so I want to start small.

HC Rainbow
2013-02-08, 06:34 PM
Yeah that was kind of a random idea I had while trying to figure out how to pull this off. At first I tried just adding a ton of D8s; and then I tried D6s with +1 with the cap going higher for the higher level spells - but ultimately that kept ending up with weird situations where you'd have Cure Light Wounds being nearly as good as Cure Moderate Wounds when you got the latter...

< . .> The extra +s were just kind of a random thought that seemed to work out well when I gave it some thought.

I think it might make for a decent fix to blasting spells as well honestly - halve the die size and add a + bonus of some kind based on the level of the spell. You end up with a similar maximum potential damage, but a more reliable spell overall.

(Ex: Fireball going from 1d6 per level to 1d3+3 per level - both get you a cap of 60, but the latter has a minimum damage of 40 at 10th level, while the other can be as low as 10.)

<. .> But I'm not really that great at math so I want to start small.

The only reason I think it would be bad on a blaster too is how much more effective the magic users will be in these situations. A cleric with your formula will healing much harder than normal, and have more time to blast. And now if the blasters are blasting harder. everythings challenge rating in theory went down a peg or two.

If you did one or the other though it wouldnt hurt the system. but I'd prefer the healing one seeing as if you did it with a scorching ray and someone managed to Crit, that would seriously hurt.

EDIT: On a side note.. it would exponentially increase the effectiveness of higher level spells, so I dont even want to see anyone play with a Disintegrate under your rules. No offense to you, but do the math.. level 20 - 40d3 +6/lvl? (Is my math right?) 6*20=240+120= 360 maximized disintegrate. >_> h'ohboy

And by that logic. You just empowered a Disintegrate and rolled 40 6's. Lmao

mistformsquirrl
2013-02-08, 06:42 PM
>_> I did mention math is not my strong point! lol Point taken <_<

HC Rainbow
2013-02-08, 06:45 PM
>_> I did mention math is not my strong point! lol Point taken <_<

For healing, It works out just fine. It makes healing useful at all times, and not "for the love of all that is holy DO NOT ROLL A 1" and makes it into a celebration. Healing may be powerful now but there are still tactics like Kill the healer and kill spells that just get around that system.

However, to get around a blaster like that, Your only options are spell resistance and kill the blaster. which a smart blaster would find the one without spell resistance and one shot them with a maximized disintegrate. or just take spell penetration and 2 hit most dragons. Lol

peterpaulrubens
2013-02-08, 08:18 PM
I played a character using T.G. Oskar's excellent Retooled Healer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133118) for awhile.

I concluded that the class feature that let touch-range healing spells (Boundless Healing) be used at Close range was one of the most important, if not THE most important, abilities that the class had going for it. There's no point in letting healing keep up with blasting if your healer has to stand next to his targets and the blaster can rain death from 100' away.

I understand the idea of not making prestige classes or feats obsolete, but if your goal is to make in-combat healing useful out-of-the-box, then you need to include some extra range. Otherwise you've given healers a shiny new toy with a label on the side that says "Batteries Not Included".

LordErebus12
2013-02-08, 08:30 PM
Id also make all cure/inflicts close range spells (25 ft. + 5 ft/2 levels), though require ranged touch attacks unless they target is aware of the attempt and willingly receives it. But that is just me, cause i have always been a fan of the ranged healer from final fantasy, world of warcraft, etc.

Healer Savant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14677943&postcount=1)

mistformsquirrl
2013-02-09, 08:21 AM
I played a character using T.G. Oskar's excellent Retooled Healer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133118) for awhile.

I concluded that the class feature that let touch-range healing spells (Boundless Healing) be used at Close range was one of the most important, if not THE most important, abilities that the class had going for it. There's no point in letting healing keep up with blasting if your healer has to stand next to his targets and the blaster can rain death from 100' away.

I understand the idea of not making prestige classes or feats obsolete, but if your goal is to make in-combat healing useful out-of-the-box, then you need to include some extra range. Otherwise you've given healers a shiny new toy with a label on the side that says "Batteries Not Included".

Hrm, giving it some more thought, what about an addendum like this:

"These spells now have (Close) 25ft+5ft/level range. Effects which would normally grant this range instead double it."

So a prestige class, if you're a 3rd level caster, your Cure Light Wounds could reach 40ft naturally - but if you have an ability that would grant it range, it now reaches 80ft naturally.

Reasonable? Too much?

peterpaulrubens
2013-02-09, 05:01 PM
I think that would work fine.