3.5 DM ?: Monster Advancement by HD/Levels/CR

[Adept_Scholar]

I am currently working on fluctuating creature CRs (decreasing and increaing) and would like to know from others who are experienced in this sort of thing if the below looks correct:

Demon-Bebilith (Outsider: +1 every 2 HD as per Table 4-4 on pg. 294 in 3.5 M.M.)
Huge:
12 HD=10 CR
13 HD=10 CR
14 HD=11 CR
15 HD=11 CR
16 HD=12 CR
17 HD=12 CR
18 HD=13 CR
Gargantuan:
19 HD=13 CR*
20 HD=14 CR
21 HD=14 CR
22 HD=15 CR
23 HD=15 CR
24 HD=16 CR
25 HD=16 CR
26 HD=17 CR
27 HD=17 CR
28 HD=18 CR
29 HD=18 CR
30 HD=19 CR
31 HD=19 CR
32 HD=20 CR
33 HD=20 CR

*Would there be an additional +1 bump to CR at this point since the monster moved from huge to gargantuan as per Table 4-4 on pg. 294 in the 3.5 M.M. ("Size Increase to Large or Larger")? Or would this only pertain to a creature moving from medium-size to large or larger? The creature's main abilities (poison and web) benefit from a larger size/higher CON score which would typically be increased by 1 every 4th HD anyway. Also, would the +1 CR shown on the Table for ability scores based upon an elite array be applied only once? For example, (as per pg. 7 in the 3.5 M.M.) determining a bebilith's racial ability adjustments (the example bebilith described in the manual) would be:

STR 28-10=+18 racial adjustment
DEX 12-10=+2 racial adjustment
CON 26-10=+16 racial adjustment
INT 11-11=+0 racial adjustment
WIS 13-11=+2 racial adjustment
CHA 13-11=+2 racial adjustment

So, the HD 12/CR 10 bebilith in the manual with an elite array (15,14,13,12,10,8) would look something like:

STR 15+18=33
DEX 13+2=15
CON 14+16=30
INT 8+0=8
WIS 12+2=14
CHA 10+2=12

Would this only increase the monster's initial CR by 1 (10 to 11) or every CR bump at an increased 2 HD afterwards?

Now as far as advancing a creature by class levels, let's take a look at an aranea's ability scores and racial adjustments:

STR 11-11=+0 racial adjustment
DEX 15-11=+4 racial adjustment
CON 14-10=+4 racial adjustment
INT 14-10=+4 racial adjustment
WIS 13-11=+2 racial adjustment
CHA 14-10=+4 racial adjustment

The 3.5 M.M. (pg. 7) suggests that a non-elite array (13,12,11,10,9,8) be used when advancing a creature by an NPC class. Since araneas advance by levels rather than by HD, I can only assume that the example aranea in the book is actually a 1st level NPC (for it makes sense to me that every aranea within a colony/society would be at least a 1st level commoner), so it's abilities would look more like:

STR 8+0 racial adjustment=8
DEX 13+4 racial adjustment=17
CON 12+4 racial adjustment=16
INT 10+4 racial adjustment=14
WIS 9+2 racial adjustment=11
CHA 11+4 racial adjustment=15

Now let's say an aranea decided to train towards becoming a sorcerer rather than stay a commoner, adept, etc. We would then apply the elite array in place of the original non-elite array:

STR 8+0 racial adjustment=8
DEX 15+4 racial adjustment=19
CON 14+4 racial adjustment=18
INT 13+4 racial adjustment=17
WIS 10+2 racial adjustment=12
CHA 12+4 racial adjustment=16

This would lead to an aranea which was a 4 HD (3 monster+1 sorcerer)/6 CR (4 original+1 sorcerer+1 for elite array)* creature (1st level NPC class: Adept/1st level PC class: Sorcerer). (Note that I did not add the HD for being a 1st level NPC to its 3 HD of monster since I assume that it is supposed to be at least a 1st level NPC and one level of NPC does not add to its CR at any rate). Anyway, getting back to Table 4-4, I assume that when it says below the table in reference to *adding +1 CR to a monster based upon an elite array: "Do not apply this increase if you advance a monster by class levels. (Monsters advanced by class levels are assumed to use the elite array), that this +1 to CR is only applied once to creatures who advance by associated class levels (similar to where an elite array is either applied once or multipe times to the above bebilith)?

I know the post is long and realize determining an exact approprite CR is not necessarily a solid science, yet I am working on the monsters within my world and want to make sure I have appropriate formulas down for future reference. (And hopefully such a post would perhaps be of use to other newer D.M.s who are interested in engaging in similar pursuits). :smallsmile:

[Yora]

CR isn't really a result of the bare numbers. Much more important is how the individual traits of a creature complement each other and how broad it's abilities and defenses are. Some things become extremely powerful if you scale them up, others barely benefit from it at all. It's always best to take the finished creature and compare it to average characters of different levels to see where it fits best.

[Urpriest]

snip

You're mostly right on the bebilith. The increase in CR for a size increase is only if it goes from Medium to Large, since that's a much bigger qualitative change relative to the average PC. Huge to Gargantuan means bigger numbers, but it's still "much bigger than a PC", which seems to be the guideline.

The elite scores boost is a one-time thing. Once you give it elite scores, each CR should be one higher.



The 3.5 M.M. (pg. 7) suggests that a non-elite array (13,12,11,10,9,8) be used when advancing a creature by an NPC class. Since araneas advance by levels rather than by HD, I can only assume that the example aranea in the book is actually a 1st level NPC (for it makes sense to me that every aranea within a colony/society would be at least a 1st level commoner)

Nope! The example Aranea is simply an Aranea. Only 1hd creatures automatically start with class levels, and even then except humanoids they can keep their racial hit dice.



Now let's say an aranea decided to train towards becoming a sorcerer rather than stay a commoner, adept, etc. We would then apply the elite array in place of the original non-elite array:

STR 8+0 racial adjustment=8
DEX 15+4 racial adjustment=19
CON 14+4 racial adjustment=18
INT 13+4 racial adjustment=17
WIS 10+2 racial adjustment=12
CHA 12+4 racial adjustment=16

This would lead to an aranea which was a 4 HD (3 monster+1 sorcerer)/6 CR (4 original+1 sorcerer+1 for elite array)* creature (1st level NPC class: Adept/1st level PC class: Sorcerer). (Note that I did not add the HD for being a 1st level NPC to its 3 HD of monster since I assume that it is supposed to be at least a 1st level NPC and one level of NPC does not add to its CR at any rate). Anyway, getting back to Table 4-4, I assume that when it says below the table in reference to *adding +1 CR to a monster based upon an elite array: "Do not apply this increase if you advance a monster by class levels. (Monsters advanced by class levels are assumed to use the elite array), that this +1 to CR is only applied once to creatures who advance by associated class levels (similar to where an elite array is either applied once or multipe times to the above bebilith)?


4HD is correct. It's only CR 5, the elite array is automatically included when you add class levels (associated or nonassociated) at no increase to CR. And as said before, the Adept levels are completely nonexistent.

As for CR not being an exact science, I would argue that it is: there are specific rules giving specific CRs, and CRs determine how much XP the party gets for overcoming challenges. What sort of monster to pit against which party is what isn't an exact science, and should be relatively independent of CR.

[Adept_Scholar]

Nope! The example Aranea is simply an Aranea.

I noticed it said it didn't have an NPC class, yet it didn't make sense to me how an intellectual creature could just be a "monster" within an assumed "class-based" society (since they advance by class levels) without being at least a commoner. :smalltongue:


It's only CR 5, the elite array is automatically included when you add class levels (associated or nonassociated) at no increase to CR.

Well, let's say that we take the example aranea from the manual at face value: a HD 3/CR 4 creature with a standard ability array (STR 11, DEX 11, CON 10, INT 10, WIS 11, CHA 10 before racial modifiers). Now let's advance it to a first level sorcerer: HD 4/CR 5; however, you say that the elite array is automatically included, yet its abilities would still be at the standard array shown above unless you went and assigned the elite array as representation of the added sorcerer level. Do they not include a +1 to CR for this assignment because they assume you will do this automatically when you add the sorcerer level?


And as said before, the Adept levels are completely nonexistent.


NPC classes are always non-associated levels according to the 3.5 M.M., so every two added would increase the CR by 1 (until they equal the creature's original HD); for example, a 4th level adept aranea would be: 7 HD (3 monster+4 adept)/6 CR (4 monster+2 adept) or a 2nd level adept/1st level sorcerer aranea would be: 6 HD (3 monster+2 adept+1 sorcerer)/6 CR (4 monster+1 adept+1 sorcerer), correct?

[ksbsnowowl]

You're mostly right on the bebilith. The increase in CR for a size increase is only if it goes from Medium to Large, since that's a much bigger qualitative change relative to the average PC. Huge to Gargantuan means bigger numbers, but it's still "much bigger than a PC", which seems to be the guideline.


Ehem...


Increasing Size
Generally, increasing a monster’s size increases its combat effectiveness. Large creatures gain increased Strength, reach, and other benefits. Apply this modifier if you increase a creature beyond Medium and in conjunction with any other increases.

Got an increase from Medium to Huge? Apply the +1 CR modifier for Med -> Large in conjunction with the +1 CR modifier for Large -> Huge.

[Urpriest]

Ehem...



Got an increase from Medium to Huge? Apply the +1 CR modifier for Med -> Large in conjunction with the +1 CR modifier for Large -> Huge.

That's...not what that says. "In conjunction with any other increases" means it stacks with CR increases due to increasing hit dice, elite array, etc. It doesn't mean it stacks with itself, especially since that quote specifically refers to Large creatures and Medium creatures.




I noticed it said it didn't have an NPC class, yet it didn't make sense to me how an intellectual creature could just be a "monster" within an assumed "class-based" society (since they advance by class levels) without being at least a commoner. :smalltongue:


It's not a "class-based" society. They advance by character class, but most don't advance at all. If you had racial hit dice, would you take levels of commoner? Also, remember, aranea don't really have a society anyway, they're typically loners.



Well, let's say that we take the example aranea from the manual at face value: a HD 3/CR 4 creature with a standard ability array (STR 11, DEX 11, CON 10, INT 10, WIS 11, CHA 10 before racial modifiers). Now let's advance it to a first level sorcerer: HD 4/CR 5; however, you say that the elite array is automatically included, yet its abilities would still be at the standard array shown above unless you went and assigned the elite array as representation of the added sorcerer level. Do they not include a +1 to CR for this assignment because they assume you will do this automatically when you add the sorcerer level?


That's the point. When you assign the sorceror level, you automatically also assign the elite array, at no additional CR cost. It's not them assuming you'll do it, it's what you are told by the rules to do.



NPC classes are always non-associated levels according to the 3.5 M.M., so every two added would increase the CR by 1 (until they equal the creature's original HD); for example, a 4th level adept aranea would be: 7 HD (3 monster+4 adept)/6 CR (4 monster+2 adept) or a 2nd level adept/1st level sorcerer aranea would be: 6 HD (3 monster+2 adept+1 sorcerer)/6 CR (4 monster+1 adept+1 sorcerer), correct?

Note that while the rules say that all NPC class levels are non-associated, it's more consistent with the CR-ing of the NPC section of the DMG to assume that they always begin non-associated, but become associated when they equal racial hit dice like other classes do. Otherwise you get some silly results, like an Aranea Adept 20 being only CR 14. Under that interpretation, an Aranea 4th level Adept would still be CR 6, anyway, so whichever way you interpret that text that example is correct.

Your example with sorceror levels is correct.

[Adept_Scholar]

It's not a "class-based" society. They advance by character class, but most don't advance at all. If you had racial hit dice, would you take levels of commoner? Also, remember, aranea don't really have a society anyway, they're typically loners.

What about in reference to the Azer? They are shown as advancing by class and having a society format, so would not the example creature shown in the 3.5 manual be a 1st level NPC? :smallconfused:

[Urpriest]

What about in reference to the Azer? They are shown as advancing by class and having a society format, so would not the example creature shown in the 3.5 manual be a 1st level NPC? :smallconfused:

The best way to think about it is that Commoner stands in for racial hit dice for races without racial hit dice, like humans. The only creatures that are automatically 1st level NPCs are ones with zero or one racial hit die.

Think about it like this. If you're an Azer with no NPC levels, you've already got two hit dice with 8+Int skill points, and class skills that include Appraise and Craft. You've also got +2 BAB and proficiency with Martial Weapons. Since your society is largely focused on crafting and warfare, you already have all the baseline skills you need. You are basically already both a 2nd level Expert and a 2nd level Warrior, and a little better than both. The vast majority of Azers simply are this way (see the organization entry). They don't have the NPC array, and they don't take NPC classes, because they don't really need either to have a baseline level of competence. An Azer who simply grows up in Azer society already knows everything that a human or dwarf might learn over the course of an apprenticeship.

[Adept_Scholar]

I see where you are coming from. Upon reading the entry of Azer society, it mentions Azer nobles which triggers "aristocrats" in my mind; thus the assumption NPC classes would be present. I can see now how adding a level of commoner to an Azer wouldn't make much sense, not only from a standpoint of making the creature tougher, but also from a fictional standpoint of why an Azer would advance to commoner; for are not all Azers depicted as being pretty much "commoners" within their society already (other than the possible noble/aristocrat Azers noted above)? With that being said, what I am probably going to do is scratch the commoner and adept NPC classes for this creature, but include the more compatible NPC classes (aristocrat, warrior, & expert) as these make more sense to me. (An Azer who picks up a single level of warrior, for example, is not stronger than one who picks up said level of fighter (not quite talented enough), yet obviously picking up the few perks of being a level one warrior makes it better than remaining a "commoner" 2 HD Azer. :smallwink:

[ksbsnowowl]

That's...not what that says. "In conjunction with any other increases" means it stacks with CR increases due to increasing hit dice, elite array, etc. It doesn't mean it stacks with itself, especially since that quote specifically refers to Large creatures and Medium creatures.


Look at the chart.


Size increased to Large or larger +1 to CR

The +1 CR bump occurs each time you increase in size above Medium.

[Urpriest]

Look at the chart.


The +1 CR bump occurs each time you increase in size above Medium.

No. You only increase to "large or larger" once, no matter how many size categories you gain. Once you are large you are already "large or larger", and cannot again increase to "large or larger".

[TuggyNE]

The +1 CR bump occurs each time you increase in size above Medium.

The point of that is that a Large creature advancing to Huge (and going up in size for the first time) gets +1 CR; similarly for other sizes. However, subsequent size changes don't add as much.