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Amaril
2013-02-08, 02:32 PM
Hey everybody. I find myself in a position to ask for some assistance from the playground, and I have faith you folks will be able to give me some good advice.

So, essentially, I'm currently playing with a group I really like (I'm a wizard in an adapted FR-Golarion hybrid world, but that's beside the point). The other players have been pretty cool so far, as has our DM. The only problem is a fairly minor one, but one which is kinda bugging me, which is that our DM tends to go a little too easy on us. We've blown through every combat so far with only one injury (although we're only 2nd level, so there's plenty of time for that to change), and although my character isn't intended to be particularly combat focused at this level, I do feel like the game is missing some of the lethality I've come to expect from 3.5/Pathfinder. Additionally, I have a suspicion that this tendency may extend to the campaign narrative as well, in that I can't imagine anything bad really happening to our characters to provide emotional growth and motivation for adventuring.

For example, one of the NPCs who features prominently in the story is my character's father and mentor, and narrative convention dictates that one of two things happen to him--either a) he dies, thus prompting me to seek revenge on his killer, or b) he gets kidnapped, forcing me to head off and rescue him. Those are the kinds of character-building catastrophes that I think are almost an essential part of a story, but which I'm worried the DM may ignore altogether.

My question is this--how can I communicate to the DM without offending him that I'd enjoy a bit more of a challenge from the campaign (both narratively and mechanically) and do so without making the other players mad at me if they find out I'm responsible for making things more difficult for them? Also, if I mention to the DM that I enjoy more challenging games and he responds, and this does bother the other players, am I a bad group member for speaking up? Any advice you can offer would be a great help, I'm sure.

Tengu_temp
2013-02-08, 02:38 PM
If you want specific plothooks, don't be afraid to ask the DM for them.

As for the difficulty part, ask the other players what do they think about the game's overall difficulty. If there's more people who think it's too easy, you could ask the DM together. If you're the only one who's bothered by it and everyone else prefers it this way, then I'm afraid you'll have to just suck it up.

nedz
2013-02-08, 03:16 PM
Some games run in easy mode I'm afraid, try mentioning your thoughts to the group and see what the consensus is.


For example, one of the NPCs who features prominently in the story is my character's father and mentor, and narrative convention dictates that one of two things happen to him--either a) he dies, thus prompting me to seek revenge on his killer, or b) he gets kidnapped, forcing me to head off and rescue him. Those are the kinds of character-building catastrophes that I think are almost an essential part of a story, but which I'm worried the DM may ignore altogether.

Maybe your DM is going to be unconventional ?
I can think of a couple of hundred ways I could use such an NPC.

Harkoth
2013-02-08, 04:02 PM
At 1st/2nd level, in probably any RPG, sometimes encounters feel 'softball', but they were just a crit or two away from a complete beatdown. Off the top of my head, for instance, in the D&D 4e Monster Manual, one of those starter goblins goes berserk when bloodied and hits hard enough to drop a 1st lvl char in one hit. It's tricky. And a little luck this way or that. So, maybe your DM wasn't 'going too easy', but the rolls were. In the end, regardless what path you choose, a decent amount of game falls on the roll of the die... in theory, anyway.

You could still ask the other players, but don't do it in an undermining kind of way. You don't want to be essentially crap-talking the DM or attempting to bias the players against the DM or campaign. Some of the other players may have felt near-death experiences that you didn't, even if they didn't take any heavy damage. Or they might have had more fun for other reasons (maybe the adventure utilized more of their skills?).

Regardless, it is clear that you didn't have as much fun as you would have liked. Don't be afraid to come up with some suggestions for the DM that would make the game more to your liking and present them in a positive manner. Be sure to include genuine compliments about what you do like about the campaign when providing suggestions for what could be better!

Kelb_Panthera
2013-02-08, 04:24 PM
Have you considered that he perhaps is overcompensating for the excessive lethality of the lowest levels of play and intends to amp up the difficulty another level or two?

nedz
2013-02-08, 04:51 PM
It is also possible that he's still gauging the strength of the party.

If he gets it wrong, and it's too hard, then you have a TPK — so erring on the side of weak is safer. Low levels are very swingy too.

Slipperychicken
2013-02-08, 04:56 PM
Just ask him about turning the difficulty up. If you guys are even remotely chill, it shouldn't be a problem.


He might be easing off partly because he really didn't want a TPK in the first few sessions to kill the game.

Amaril
2013-02-08, 06:10 PM
Thanks guys :smallsmile: It has occurred to me that the game has only seemed easy because he's taking it slow to start with, and that's what I'm hoping is the case. And the campaign is still flippin' awesome. Regardless of whether I ultimately decide to voice any concern, I'd hold off on it until I'd established more of a continuous pattern.

Or it might just be that our rogue and monk powergamed insanely and can one-shot any enemy we've faced so far with a single attack. Not much I can do about that, though.

SgtCarnage92
2013-02-08, 07:40 PM
Can you give examples of encounters that he's run so we can figure out WHY things are too easy?

Perhaps it is due to the dice, which has happened to me as a GM on a number of occasions.

Perhaps the players and GM aren't at the same optimization level. Which can lead to the party breezing through encounters that would normally be tougher for a lower-op party. I've had to up my game as a GM because of players who are way more high-op than I am.

The complexity of the encounter design can have something to do with it too. Is he just throwing monsters at you in straight up fights...or is he having them fight in territory that best compliments their abilities? Is he making effective use of cover, and terrain to make the encounters more interesting and generally speaking more challenging.
On whose terms are the fights taking place? If you've managed to make all the fights happen on your terms, they should be easier, if they are on the monsters terms (so they have time to prepare and know the area better) then they should have an advantage. Is he using a monsters full suite of abilities or just using the attack rolls? (I had a GM who did this to us and it irritated me enough that i left the game)

At the end of the day, the biggest question I have for you is how experienced is your GM? If he's new, he may not know what to do with narrative and even encounter challenge and he'll get better with experience.

Jay R
2013-02-09, 10:11 AM
For example, one of the NPCs who features prominently in the story is my character's father and mentor, and narrative convention dictates that one of two things happen to him--either a) he dies, thus prompting me to seek revenge on his killer, or b) he gets kidnapped, forcing me to head off and rescue him. Those are the kinds of character-building catastrophes that I think are almost an essential part of a story, but which I'm worried the DM may ignore altogether.

"dictates"? Your idea of literary structure is too limited.

Frodo's mentor Bilbo lives to the end of the story, and sails off to Valinor with Frodo, at age 131.

D'Artagnan's father gives him advice in the first scene, and is never seen or heard from again.

There is no single plot element that must occur. And very often, DMs will ignore any backstory that they themselves didn't write.

The real issue is that you don't feel any suspense. First, talk to the other players. If they agree with you, then tell the DM that it would be more fun if you felt more threatened. But make sure the rest of the group agrees with you before doing so.

huttj509
2013-02-09, 02:15 PM
It would not be a bad idea to discuss the matter. There can be some very different philosophies of play involved, even when using the same system.

Is the goal the mutually-created story, which might require character continuity? I'm in a L5R campaign like that. DM doesn't aim to kill characters unless they're really asking for it (did you just split off alone to chase that blood magic user down a string of alleys?) or the dice really don't go their way. Basically, to aid narrative continuity, random player death is turned way down.

Is the goal a tactical challenge? In those cases "the dice fall as they may" tends to be strongly in play, and every fight might involve creative use of terrain and resources to survive. I've played some DnD 2E like this.

Different styles of play can be system agnostic. They can also all be fun. Just not when you're expecting one and the DM's expecting another.

Amaril
2013-02-09, 03:48 PM
It definitely seems like this campaign is favoring a continual narrative arc over tactical challenges, which I completely understand as a motivation to keep characters alive. That said, I think the challenge of engaging and exciting combat adds a lot to the narrative drama of a story if it's done well.

I'm pretty sure our DM is very experienced, but this is the first time he's DM'd for our group (we had him as a player before). I don't really know whether he just likes to start out easy and build things up later, or whether he really does tend to make things pretty safe for the entire game--my concern is that if it turns out to be the latter, and that starts really detracting from the fun of the campaign (which it hasn't yet), I want to be able to approach the issue in the most understanding and co-operative way possible.

In terms of the actual encounters we've had so far, I guess it's true that most of them were pretty thoroughly on "our terms". The first combat we had was against some stirges that ambushed us in an attic, and that was the only fight in which any of our party members have been injured so far--the few we've had since then were pretty much entirely initiated, and planned beforehand, by us. Now that I think about it, I guess we have been making pretty good use of planning and combat strategy, which, combined with the insane power levels of our monk and rogue, might account for most of it.

Also, since our most recent session, I'm starting to get a much better sense of where the story with my character's father is headed, and it's alleviated many of my concerns. I admit, I tend to suffer from a somewhat Elan-like dogmatic adherence to fantasy cliches, and I hadn't really considered the many possibilities that a character like that offers to the story (especially when he was created and written into the campaign entirely by the DM, rather than being my invention).

Jay R
2013-02-10, 10:52 AM
Sounds like things are now going well for you.

You can't judge a book by a single chapter, and for the same reasons, you can't judge a DM's story arc by a single session.

Play, enjoy, evaluate it at the end.

Slipperychicken
2013-02-10, 10:17 PM
Campaign is too easy? Play a Fighter.

If that's too easy? Monk20.

Still too easy? Commoner.

Still easy? Vow of Poverty Commoner.

Even then? VowPov Commoner6/Risen Martyr1/Commoner+X. Play alignment by pure RAW. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13484087&postcount=1)

Amaril
2013-02-10, 10:49 PM
Campaign is too easy? Play a Fighter.

If that's too easy? Monk20.

Still too easy? Commoner.

Still easy? Vow of Poverty Commoner.

Even then? VowPov Commoner6/Risen Martyr1/Commoner+X. Play alignment by pure RAW. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13484087&postcount=1)

The only way I've been able to console myself about the massive overpoweredness of the rogue and the monk in our group is by reminding myself that I'll still be by far the most powerful member of the party once I get a couple more spell levels. I'm not about to give that up :smallbiggrin:

Regardless, I'm not as worried about the difficulty level as I was for a while.

As an aside, I'm thinking of putting my ongoing in-character campaign journal up on the site for everyone in the Playground to enjoy and criticize for literary technique. Any suggestions for what forum category would be best for this?

Amidus Drexel
2013-02-10, 11:23 PM
The only way I've been able to console myself about the massive overpoweredness of the rogue and the monk in our group is by reminding myself that I'll still be by far the most powerful member of the party once I get a couple more spell levels. I'm not about to give that up :smallbiggrin:

Regardless, I'm not as worried about the difficulty level as I was for a while.

As an aside, I'm thinking of putting my ongoing in-character campaign journal up on the site for everyone in the Playground to enjoy and criticize for literary technique. Any suggestions for what forum category would be best for this?

I'd say either here or in the Art and Stuff subforum, depending on whether it's mostly about the campaign or mostly about your writing style.

I'm no good for critiquing, but I do like to read campaign journals.

Amaril
2013-02-10, 11:41 PM
It's mostly about the campaign, so I guess I'll put it up here on another thread. Hope you guys like it once I start that :smallsmile:

Jay R
2013-02-10, 11:44 PM
The only way I've been able to console myself about the massive overpoweredness of the rogue and the monk in our group is by reminding myself that I'll still be by far the most powerful member of the party once I get a couple more spell levels. I'm not about to give that up :smallbiggrin:

I have no advice to give here. I have never once had to console myself about the massive overpoweredness of a monk.

Amaril
2013-02-10, 11:52 PM
I have no advice to give here. I have never once had to console myself about the massive overpoweredness of a monk.
I didn't believe it myself, but it's actually legit. He has something like a +12 attack bonus when unarmed, and he's going for some kind of crazy grappling build he found on the internet. He and the rogue player are definitely power-gamers, but fortunately they're not munchkins--their roleplaying and backstories are both excellent.

Slipperychicken
2013-02-11, 12:26 AM
I have no advice to give here. I have never once had to console myself about the massive overpoweredness of a monk.

Whenever I see them in play next to Tier 3+ characters, they completely dominate the "waste of space" role. But at least their move speed helps set up flanks.

But a spellcaster who plays his cards right can be quite effective at low level combat (I'm looking at you, Sleep and Grease). But if most of the game's challenge lies outside of combat, count yourself very lucky, since spellcasters have the potential to dominate many non-combat interactions. Next level you will have Detect Thoughts, which is invaluable in a world filled with liars.

And if you feel your Wizard is unprepared and underpowered, take Uncanny Forethought. Seriously, that feat is like steroids for Wizards.

Esprit15
2013-02-11, 01:49 AM
Gonna take the side of the many other people who seem to believe that the DM may just be more story oriented than combat oriented for this game, or may be avoiding one bad hit being the end of you. Balancing something being challenging but winnable and challenging because short of bad/good rolls it is unwinnable is a very fine balance. Especially if he is new, I can see this being the case.

Amaril
2013-02-11, 10:21 AM
Whenever I see them in play next to Tier 3+ characters, they completely dominate the "waste of space" role. But at least their move speed helps set up flanks.

But a spellcaster who plays his cards right can be quite effective at low level combat (I'm looking at you, Sleep and Grease). But if most of the game's challenge lies outside of combat, count yourself very lucky, since spellcasters have the potential to dominate many non-combat interactions. Next level you will have Detect Thoughts, which is invaluable in a world filled with liars.

And if you feel your Wizard is unprepared and underpowered, take Uncanny Forethought. Seriously, that feat is like steroids for Wizards.

I definitely don't mean to imply that I haven't felt useful so far. One encounter where we had to take prisoners? Sleep spell, boom, what next? And I'm sort of intentionally building a non-combat character for the beginning of the game, where my character is still a pacifist (I still haven't killed anyone personally), though that'll change somewhat later on.

Also, is that a Pathfinder feat? I'm not familiar with it.

Scow2
2013-02-11, 12:42 PM
I definitely don't mean to imply that I haven't felt useful so far. One encounter where we had to take prisoners? Sleep spell, boom, what next? And I'm sort of intentionally building a non-combat character for the beginning of the game, where my character is still a pacifist (I still haven't killed anyone personally), though that'll change somewhat later on.

Also, is that a Pathfinder feat? I'm not familiar with it.

Looks like it's a stupidly obscure feat from a stupidly obscure splatbook for D&D 3.5

Amaril
2013-02-11, 01:26 PM
Looks like it's a stupidly obscure feat from a stupidly obscure splatbook for D&D 3.5

Guess it's out then, since the primary reason our DM went with Pathfinder instead of 3.5 is because he doesn't like all the ridiculous powergaming that's possible with all the random obscure splatbooks for 3.5.

Of course, as mentioned above, some people will find a way to powergame no matter what the system.

Kelb_Panthera
2013-02-11, 08:15 PM
It's not that obscure. Uncanny forethought is an ACF that replaces the wizard's 5th level bonus feat with the ability to essentially cast some of the spells he knows spontaneously, up to (int) times per day. It's in, I think, complete champion.

Scow2
2013-02-11, 08:19 PM
It's not that obscure. Uncanny forethought is an ACF that replaces the wizard's 5th level bonus feat with the ability to essentially cast some of the spells he knows spontaneously, up to (int) times per day. It's in, I think, complete champion.
Divine Champion only gives Wizards access to Spontaneous Divination, or Domain Access.

Uncanny Forethought's a feat in Exemplars of Evil (I never even heard of that book until I googled the feat), not an ACF, and none of the other high-profile books with ACFs (Dungeonscape, PHB2, Unearthed Arcana) offer it either.

Kelb_Panthera
2013-02-11, 08:26 PM
Divine Champion only gives Wizards access to Spontaneous Divination, or Domain Access.

Uncanny Forethought's a feat in Exemplars of Evil (I never even heard of that book until I googled the feat), not an ACF, and none of the other high-profile books with ACFs (Dungeonscape, PHB2, Unearthed Arcana) offer it either.

My mistake. Got those two confused, what with the similarities. Edit: Uncanny forethought and spontaneous divination that is.

Amaril
2013-02-11, 11:27 PM
Well, as awesome as it sounds, I'm pretty sure it's still out for this campaign. Might look into it for future ones, though. Thanks for the suggestion :smallsmile: