can racial/template mods reduce abilities to less than 1?

[Venger]

so. I am aware of the addendum on int in the PHB about int that if your racial mod or other mods would reduce your int below 3, it stays at 3.

however, I do not know of any such addendum that exists for the other ability scores.

I know that if you have a body, you have a str, if you can move, you have a dex, and if you're alive, you have a con.

but if you overuse races/templates/etc on other abilities, can they get to 0? or do they have a hard limit at 1?

if you duergar (-4 cha), put an 8 in cha, and took some other stuff to minimize your cha (oozemaster, for example, which takes 5 points from cha by the end) what would happen? does you just stop losing cha at 1? once you attain the 8th level of oozemaster, do you lapse into a coma never to awaken until someone puts a cloak of cha or casts eagle's splendor on you?

what about other abilities?

I couldn't find anything about this in the PHB

[Deaxsa]

i'm pretty sure that you just go to 0 in that ability score, and you better hope it is not con, because then you're dead, not just comatose. I mean, if i do something to myself which gives me great power but also harms/weakens me, and my body cannot deal with the damage/weakening, i die. it's that simple.

edit: gives new meaning to the phrase "Too Dumb to Live" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooDumbToLive)

[Venger]

i'm pretty sure that you just go to 0 in that ability score, and you better hope it is not con, because then you're dead, not just comatose. I mean, if i do something to myself which gives me great power but also harms/weakens me, and my body cannot deal with the damage/weakening, i die. it's that simple.

edit: gives new meaning to the phrase "Too Dumb to Live" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooDumbToLive)

do you know where I can find the rule about that?

[Deaxsa]

do you know where I can find the rule about that?

what, you mean other than the fact that if your stats drop to 0, bad things happen? that's like saying that if i take a poison voluntarily, my stat should not drop below 1 because i am doing it to myself. other than here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss), no.

note that it specifies that the ability removal can be from temporary or permanent sources.

edit: i don't think that there is a specific ruling about lowering your stats voluntarily (or involuntarily, if someone is forcing you to do it) because nobody in their right minds does it. and if they do, they should get whatever consequence they deserve, according to the bulletpoints on ability score loss.

[HC Rainbow]

do you know where I can find the rule about that?

This? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#halfOrcs)

I know it says it for Half-Orcs and Intelligence, But doesnt say anything about Charisma..

That is a good question. I'll keep looking into it but if you have a really cool DM he might just rule that that always applies, Otherwise 1 Point of Charisma damage and you'd be down and out for the count.

[Ashtagon]

If you manipulate your character to have a zero in an ability score through a template, your character is either dead (Constitution) or dead for most practical purposes (other scores).

Exception for templates that remove an ability score entirely. "Null" is not zero.

[Curmudgeon]

From page 11 of Player's Handbook:
ABILITY ADJUSTMENTS
Find your character’s race on Table 2–1: Racial Ability Adjustments (see the next page) and apply the adjustments you see there to your character’s ability scores. If these changes put your score above 18 or below 3, that’s okay, except in the case of Intelligence, which does not go below 3 for characters. (If your half-orc character would have an adjusted Intelligence of 1 or 2, make it 3 instead.) So if racial adjustments would make any score (other than Intelligence) below 3, that's okay — even if the character is immediately dead.

[Ashtagon]

From page 11 of Player's Handbook: So if racial adjustments would make any score (other than Intelligence) below 3, that's okay — even if the character is immediately dead.

The PHB only illustrates a limited subset for player consumption. When it was written, it was (naively) believed that players wouldn't want or need to use the templates in the monster manuals.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDrained is relevant.

[jindra34]

Indeed: This covers how ability score adjusts actually work when drawn from monsters: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#abilityScoresforMonsterPCs

[Venger]

what, you mean other than the fact that if your stats drop to 0, bad things happen? that's like saying that if i take a poison voluntarily, my stat should not drop below 1 because i am doing it to myself. other than here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss), no.

note that it specifies that the ability removal can be from temporary or permanent sources.

edit: i don't think that there is a specific ruling about lowering your stats voluntarily (or involuntarily, if someone is forcing you to do it) because nobody in their right minds does it. and if they do, they should get whatever consequence they deserve, according to the bulletpoints on ability score loss.
well, I'm aware of what happens with your stats should they hit 0 from damage/drain (unconscious for mental, paralyze for dex, helpless for str, dead for con) however, racial modifiers or templates are not treated as damage/drain, so I'm not sure where they fall, since they can't be slept off or restored with restoration/heal/etc

This? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#halfOrcs)

I know it says it for Half-Orcs and Intelligence, But doesnt say anything about Charisma..

That is a good question. I'll keep looking into it but if you have a really cool DM he might just rule that that always applies, Otherwise 1 Point of Charisma damage and you'd be down and out for the count.

my thought process exactly. while half-orc has that addendum, it doesn't say it for cha, and other races with int penalties (shifter, gully dwarf, etc) lack it, but I assume that they can't be shunted below a 3 either


If you manipulate your character to have a zero in an ability score through a template, your character is either dead (Constitution) or dead for most practical purposes (other scores).

Exception for templates that remove an ability score entirely. "Null" is not zero.

well, since this is not true for int, the system keeping you at a 3, I was asking if it worked for other scores as well, since there isn't a rule saying it does or does not


EDIT

From page 11 of Player's Handbook: So if racial adjustments would make any score (other than Intelligence) below 3, that's okay — even if the character is immediately dead.

so this in combination with this:


Creatures with any ability score lower than 1 are also not playable

means that races/ templates can reduce a character's ability below 3 (but not int) and if it hits 0, you have to deal with it.

thanks a bunch, everyone

[Crake]

Curmudgeon's post pretty much solved this conundrum, if you're dumb enough to reduce one of your scores to 0, then you're treated as if having a score of 0. Like a stillborn, you're dead on arrival.

[Slipperychicken]

Better hope someone's kind enough to put an ability-enhancer on you, and never take it off. Make the item slotless and surgically-inserted to allow you to survive. You will be completely dependent on it.

It reminds me of this one children's story (not sure if it was for children, but I read it as a child anyway). A young girl always wore a black ribbon around her neck no matter what. Never took it off, and never said why. She even slept wearing it. Nobody had ever seen her without the ribbon, and no-one could say exactly why she kept it on. So she fell in love in a young man, who was, like anyone in his position would be, incredibly curious, but she wouldn't even let him touch the ribbon, nor would she explain. But one day, he decided he would find out, so he took the ribbon right off her neck, undoing it instantly. The girl's head came off, killing her. Turned out the ribbon was keeping her alive the whole time.

[Ellrin]

Wait, how did her neck grow? I mean, a child's neck is far thinner than the neck of a woman of marriageable age.

[TroubleBrewing]

Curmudgeon's post pretty much solved this conundrum, if you're dumb enough to reduce one of your scores to 0, then you're treated as if having a score of 0. Like a stillborn, you're dead on arrival.

I would think this clarifies it further.


Creatures with any ability score lower than 1 are also not playable.

So no, you can't have a guy with a score of 0.

[Slipperychicken]

Wait, how did her neck grow? I mean, a child's neck is far thinner than the neck of a woman of marriageable age.

It is possible to adjust ribbons without removing them. And perhaps the supernatural nature of the ribbon allowed it to grow with her. Or she acquired it near the point in her life when her neck mostly stopped growing. One can only imagine what cruel enchanter would afflict her so (or maybe it's a medical magic; that's the only way she was able to survive some tragic incident).


It's quite moving and prolific, so there are a bazillion (http://tlc.howstuffworks.com/family/scary-stories10.htm) variants (http://www.dallasdancemusic.com/useless-blabber/256562-girl-green-ribbon-around-her-neck.html) of the story (http://home.earthlink.net/~halloween_magenta/v-ribbon.html), with different colors, some have her wearing a scarf instead of a ribbon, etc. None of them explain how or why the woman is so bound to her neck-wear, or how she came to be so cursed. I think that part has to do with the moral: don't bother so much about a woman's affairs, and don't force things on her. If she says it's best you don't do something, you better believe her.

[Ashtagon]

Wait, how did her neck grow? I mean, a child's neck is far thinner than the neck of a woman of marriageable age.

Western Europe and those countries that have adopted its traditions in this regard have a tradition of marrying quite late compared to the rest of the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajnal_line

[HC Rainbow]

It is possible to adjust ribbons without removing them. And perhaps the supernatural nature of the ribbon allowed it to grow with her. Or she acquired it near the point in her life when her neck mostly stopped growing. One can only imagine what cruel enchanter would afflict her so (or maybe it's a medical magic; that's the only way she was able to survive some tragic incident).


It's quite moving and prolific, so there are a bazillion (http://tlc.howstuffworks.com/family/scary-stories10.htm) variants (http://www.dallasdancemusic.com/useless-blabber/256562-girl-green-ribbon-around-her-neck.html) of the story (http://home.earthlink.net/~halloween_magenta/v-ribbon.html), with different colors, some have her wearing a scarf instead of a ribbon, etc. None of them explain how or why the woman is so bound to her neck-wear, or how she came to be so cursed. I think that part has to do with the moral: don't bother so much about a woman's affairs, and don't force things on her. If she says it's best you don't do something, you better believe her.

I feel like that would make a character extremely fun to play. Would give them a severe drawback but its as if their life force is the gem around their neck, a good dm wouldnt abuse that but encourage it.

[Slipperychicken]

I feel like that would make a character extremely fun to play. Would give them a severe drawback but its as if their life force is the gem around their neck, a good dm wouldnt abuse that but encourage it.

I guess it's a matter of taste. To me, having even more binary item-dependency than a Wizard just would be more stressful than fun. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

[KillianHawkeye]

Better hope you never walk into an antimagic field....