Kill THIS character. (3.PF Gestalt) [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Morcleon

2013-02-08, 08:05 PM

Doesn't Gate have a Will save or Reflex save? If so, unless the DC is in high-triple digits, it's a pass.

Also, Fly is accessible via racial druid casting. Find a way to get bludgeoning with ranged attacks and I'll be surprised. (AC is also 125.)

Gate
Conjuration (Creation or Calling)
Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, XP; see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: See text
Duration: Instantaneous or concentration (up to 1 round/level); see text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Nope! :smallbiggrin:

30th, Getsalt, And anything open?
I throw my Awesome Dragon at her, Inferndyim, Who can, as a free Action, Deal over 2k Damage.
I would like to see that.

Toss in a psion who uses burrowing power and swarm of crystals to deal unresistable damage with impunity. :smallamused:

ngilop

2013-02-08, 08:05 PM

can we use the same interpretations of the rules you have used?

Thump

2013-02-08, 08:08 PM

Yep. You may indeed use those interpretations (though I'm not quite sure what they are at the moment, quite scatterbrained because I'm working on a bunch of unrelated stuff).

Also, doesn't it say in the description that the transportation functions as plane shift, which does allow a Will save for unwilling subjects?

As for the Swarm of Crystals; Fast Healing 48 says hello, as well as DR 10/bludgeoning and good or 10/cold iron.

Jack_Simth

2013-02-08, 08:08 PM

Undead autopass the Fort save.Yes, which is a very silly bug in the game of the interaction between undead and the positive energy plane. RAW-legal, though.

But OK. The character has no obvious method by which to dispel stuff, and very poor perception for the level.

So:
30th level Gestalt, you said?

Side A: Sorcerer-10/Loremaster-10/Master Transmorgifist-10
Side B: Cleric-30 (just because).

Takes Practised Spellcaster(Sorcerer), Alternative Source Spell, Reserves of Strength, Extend Spell, Automatic Quicken Spell, Automatic Maximize Spell, a couple copies of Multispell. Shapechange + The Master Transmorgifist Capstone to turn into a Zodar (Fiend Folio) with the added benefit of the Ocean Giant (Monster Manual II)'s Bludgeoning Immunity. Outright immunity to everything for the next 300 minutes (and can recast if needed, and can use the Cleric side + Alternative Source Spell... or was that Southern Magician? Ah well, that thing that lets you treat arcane as divine or vice-versa... and DMM(Persistent Spell) to make it last a full 24 hours).

The Sorc then proceeds to use Reserves of Strength on quite a few Quickened Maximized Hail of Stone spells on you. Soak 120 damage, no save, no SR, untyped per swift action. Probably about five swift actions a round, for the next dozen rounds (it's just a bunch of 1st level spells and soaking some damage to which the caster is immune). Oh yes, and standard actions too. So soak ... 720 damage/round while you're waiting for the caster's buffs to run out before you can actually *do* anything. And the Sorc can cast True Seeing and Greater Blindsight (Spell Compendium) if needed.

Morcleon

2013-02-08, 08:10 PM

Yep. You may indeed use those interpretations (though I'm not quite sure what they are at the moment, quite scatterbrained because I'm working on a bunch of unrelated stuff).

Also, doesn't it say in the description that the transportation functions as plane shift, which does allow a Will save for unwilling subjects?

As a mode of planar travel, a gate spell functions much like a plane shift spell, except that the gate opens precisely at the point you desire (a creation effect)...

"Much like" != "functions as". If it allowed a save for that it would be "Saving Throw: see text", not "Saving Throw: None".

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-08, 08:11 PM

Also, doesn't it say in the description that the transportation functions as plane shift, which does allow a Will save for unwilling subjects?

It says it functions "like" Planeshift, not "as".

Edit: Dangit. Swordsaged while typing; the worst of all Swordsages.

Carth

2013-02-08, 08:12 PM

Do you have any method of teleportation, etherealness, etc? Otherwise someone can just use undermaster to bury you, frostfell to turn the dirt around you into everfrost, and then take you home and put you in a refrigerated trophy room. Casting invisibility on the everfrost to make sure that everyone gets a good look at you. The trophy room would have supernatural forbiddance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/forbiddance.htm), so once you make it in there you're trapped.

Thump

2013-02-08, 08:12 PM

Yes, which is a very silly bug in the game of the interaction between undead and the positive energy plane. RAW-legal, though.

But OK. The character has no obvious method by which to dispel stuff, and very poor perception for the level.

So:
30th level Gestalt, you said?

Side A: Sorcerer-10/Loremaster-10/Master Transmorgifist-10
Side B: Cleric-30 (just because).

Takes Practised Spellcaster(Sorcerer), Alternative Source Spell, Reserves of Strength, Extend Spell, Automatic Quicken Spell, Automatic Maximize Spell, a couple copies of Multispell. Shapechange + The Master Transmorgifist Capstone to turn into a Zodar (Fiend Folio) with the added benefit of the Ocean Giant (Monster Manual II)'s Bludgeoning Immunity. Outright immunity to everything for the next 300 minutes (and can recast if needed, and can use the Cleric side + Alternative Source Spell... or was that Southern Magician? Ah well, that thing that lets you treat arcane as divine or vice-versa... and DMM(Persistent Spell) to make it last a full 24 hours).

The Sorc then proceeds to use Reserves of Strength on quite a few Quickened Maximized Hail of Stone spells on you. Soak 120 damage, no save, no SR, untyped per swift action. Probably about five swift actions a round, for the next dozen rounds (it's just a bunch of 1st level spells and soaking some damage to which the caster is immune). Oh yes, and standard actions too. So soak ... 720 damage/round while you're waiting for the caster's buffs to run out before you can actually *do* anything. And the Sorc can cast True Seeing and Greater Blindsight (Spell Compendium) if needed.

AC 125 says hello.

@Morcelon;

Damn, looks like you got me there. Though it's positive energy, don't undead react badly to that unlike living creatures? It should say something like Will save or destroyed, or 5 damage/round instead of Fast Healing. (It's not there, but any DM that I know would change that.)
@Carth: Dimension Door says hello, plus 7th-level racial druid casting (which should have some sort of burrow spell in there)

Vaern

2013-02-08, 08:13 PM

I see an undead creature that appears to have no turn resistance or immunity listed on her character sheet. Any appropriate-leveled cleric with access to the Sun domain or the Disciple of the Sun feat should be able to make quick work of that.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-08, 08:13 PM

@Morcelon;

Damn, looks like you got me there. Though it's positive energy, don't undead react badly to that unlike living creatures? It should say something like Will save or destroyed, or 5 damage/round instead of Fast Healing. (It's not there, but any DM that I know would change that.)

As I've pointed out twice, going on thrice now, by RAW, a Positive Dominant plane has no adverse effects on Undead.

Edit:

@Vaern: Pathfinder rules nerfed Turn Undead.

Morcleon

2013-02-08, 08:14 PM

AC 125 says hello.

No attack roll required says hello. :smallwink:

@Morcelon;

Damn, looks like you got me there. Though it's positive energy, don't undead react badly to that unlike living creatures? It should say something like Will save or destroyed, or 5 damage/round instead of Fast Healing. (It's not there, but any DM that I know would change that.)

Nah. Positive energy never states that it hurts undead. :smalltongue:

Tanuki Tales is right, though. The positive energy plane doesn't work. Gate her into the Abyss or something. Let the demon princes take care of her. :smallamused:

Carth

2013-02-08, 08:16 PM

@Carth: Dimension Door says hello, plus 7th-level racial druid casting (which should have some sort of burrow spell in there)

Well, in that case it more or less locks in a dweomerkeeper as being required for my method, they could supernaturally dimensionally anchor you, using surge of fortune to get a 20 on the attack roll.

Thump

2013-02-08, 08:17 PM

As I've pointed out twice, going on thrice now, by RAW, a Positive Dominant plane has no adverse affects on Undead.

Which by RAW, whoever wrote that forgot what happens with such, and probably should have an errata somewhere. If there's not...

idfk.

@Morcelon

Doesn't Hail of Stone have this description?

You create a rain of stones that deal damage to creatures and objects they strike.
Make a ranged attack roll (not ranged touch) against every creature and relevant object in the spell's area.
Your bonus for this attack roll is equal to your caster level plus your relevant ability modifier (Intelligence for wizards or Charisma for sorcerers).
A successful hit deals 1d4 points of damage per caster level, to a maximum of 5d4.
Material Component: A piece of jade worth at least 5 gp.

Also, @Vaern, we're using Pathfinder and 3.5 material, with pathfinder classes and rules as base, with other 3.5 material being used. A 3.5 cleric could do it, but not a Pathfinder cleric (due to saves being allowed).

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-08, 08:19 PM

Well, in that case it more or less locks in a dweomerkeeper as being required for my method, they could supernaturally dimensionally anchor you, using surge of fortune to get a 20 on the attack roll.

Your method is BFR though, not killing her.

Morcleon

2013-02-08, 08:20 PM

Which by RAW, whoever wrote that forgot what happens with such, and probably should have an errata somewhere. If there's not...

idfk.

@Morcelon

Doesn't Hail of Stone have this description?

You create a rain of stones that deal damage to creatures and objects they strike.
Make a ranged attack roll (not ranged touch) against every creature and relevant object in the spell's area.
Your bonus for this attack roll is equal to your caster level plus your relevant ability modifier (Intelligence for wizards or Charisma for sorcerers).
A successful hit deals 1d4 points of damage per caster level, to a maximum of 5d4.
Material Component: A piece of jade worth at least 5 gp.

Also, @Vaern, we're using Pathfinder and 3.5 material, with pathfinder classes and rules as base, with other 3.5 material being used. A 3.5 cleric could do it, but not a Pathfinder cleric (due to saves being allowed).

Nope! :smallbiggrin:

More like, create stones that deals 1d4 per CL damage (maximum 5d4) to creatures and objects within area.
Material Comp: 5 gp.

Thump

2013-02-08, 08:20 PM

Your method is BFR though, not killing her.

Quick dumb question; what does BFR stand for?

@Morcelon

This is the Underdark spell, or a different version? I'm being slightly confused by this, as I checked dndtools.eu, and that's the one that came up, and it said it had an attack roll. If it is indeed the case in your favor, then that would work.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-08, 08:21 PM

Quick dumb question; what does BFR stand for?

Battlefield Removal.

It's probably more a comic book term/versus debate term though for the most part.

Morcleon

2013-02-08, 08:22 PM

Quick dumb question; what does BFR stand for?

@Morcelon

This is the Underdark spell, or a different version? I'm being slightly confused by this, as I checked dndtools.eu, and that's the one that came up, and it said it had an attack roll. If it is indeed the case in your favor, then that would work.

I'm using the complete arcane version. If you google d&d hail of stone, it should be the second result. :smalltongue:

Felyndiira

2013-02-08, 08:22 PM

Doesn't Hail of Stone have this description?

You don't want to use the ones in the FR Campaign Setting books or Oriental Adventurers. Those are much older.

The Complete Arcane and Spell Compendum versions do not require attack rolls. It's one of the few spells that allows absolutely no defense against it whatsoever. (It does require 5 GP of material components, though, which is like nothing when we're talking about level 30).

Otherwise, since you're using 3.5 sources with pathfinder, can we toss in the 3.5 versions of some spells, like Holy Word?

EDIT: Swordsages and their swift action shadow posts =x.

silverwolfer

2013-02-08, 08:23 PM

http://imageshack.us/a/img12/6840/churchsignub.jpg

Carth

2013-02-08, 08:24 PM

Your method is BFR though, not killing her.

Well, the point at which you're imprisoned under my circumstances makes killing trivial.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-08, 08:24 PM

Otherwise, since you're using 3.5 sources with pathfinder

He said he's using Pathfinder rules as base, with 3.5 stuff not already covered allowed in.

Edit:

@Carth: Then describe how you kill her? :smallconfused:

Thump

2013-02-08, 08:27 PM

He said he's using Pathfinder rules as base, with 3.5 stuff not already covered allowed in.

Edit:

@Carth: Then describe how you kill her? :smallconfused:

That is what I said.

Also, got a good laugh out of the picture.

Looks like there's not too many weaknesses, I just have to see if they're used. (If Proud Tortoise is reading this, she's dead in the water already.)

They are there, though.

@Felyndyriia and Morcelon

Thank you for clarifying that for me.

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-08, 08:29 PM

You don't want to use the ones in the FR Campaign Setting books or Oriental Adventurers. Those are much older.

The Complete Arcane and Spell Compendum versions do not require attack rolls. It's one of the few spells that allows absolutely no defense against it whatsoever. (It does require 5 GP of material components, though, which is like nothing when we're talking about level 30).

Otherwise, since you're using 3.5 sources with pathfinder, can we toss in the 3.5 versions of some spells, like Holy Word?

EDIT: Swordsages and their swift action shadow posts =x.

I believe there is a 2nd level druid spell that reduces damage caused by stone to nonlethal damage. Earthen grace, Spell Compendium. The nymph spellcasting should grant it, and the undead are immune to nonlethal, so I think hail of stone is unlikely to work, at least more than once.

Carth

2013-02-08, 08:29 PM

@Carth: Then describe how you kill her? :smallconfused:

Given that we have all the time in the world, she'll eventually roll a 1 on supernatural PAO. She'll turn into a fish, and suddenly be required to breath water or die.

Vaern

2013-02-08, 08:33 PM

Also, @Vaern, we're using Pathfinder and 3.5 material, with pathfinder classes and rules as base, with other 3.5 material being used. A 3.5 cleric could do it, but not a Pathfinder cleric (due to saves being allowed).
Curse you, Pathfinder mechanic changes. You've foiled my plans once again.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-08, 08:34 PM

Given that we have all the time in the world, she'll eventually roll a 1 on supernatural PAO. She'll turn into a fish, and suddenly be required to breath water or die.

That'll work.

Just be careful on which type of Fish you select unless you plan to cast PaO a second successful time.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-02-08, 08:34 PM

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-08, 08:35 PM

Of course, the whole issue is irrelevant. You're Epic. That means Epic Spell Seeds. That means you simply lose. DC: Arbitrary SR: go ahead and try, effect: Arbitrary amount of damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/destroy.htm).

Are Epic spells allowed for this exercise though? Since Pathfinder doesn't have Epic Magic and all.

Morcleon

2013-02-08, 08:37 PM

That'll work.

Just be careful on which type of Fish you select unless you plan to cast PaO a second successful time.

Irrelevant. She is now a fish. Kill it with a big stick or something. :smalltongue:

Thump

2013-02-08, 08:38 PM

Metamagic stacking on Hail of Stones type spells which do not permit SR, do not have a save, and do not require an attack roll is probably the easiest way to beat it. Might take a couple of turns, but Spell Matricies et al is able to crank out a truly insane number of them per turn.

Yanno, aside from crap like Ice Assassins, Mindraping deities, and other such nonsense.

Of course, the whole issue is irrelevant. You're Epic. That means Epic Spell Seeds. That means you simply lose. DC: Arbitrary SR: go ahead and try, effect: Arbitrary amount of damage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/destroy.htm).

Mindraping doesn't work on her, unfortunately. I also remember; Can you beat a +33 initiative with ease with these builds? Otherwise yer gonna get speed-blitzed and more than likely take an average of 15 to 25 negative levels, no save without any sort of death ward or immunities.

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-08, 08:39 PM

Given that we have all the time in the world, she'll eventually roll a 1 on supernatural PAO. She'll turn into a fish, and suddenly be required to breath water or die.

So I think this can be solved by tacking on some lycanthropy. The shapechanger subtype should allow her to revert to her natural form as a standard action. I'm looking at the PHB polymorph and PAO, so if those have been errata'd substantially, this fix might not work.

ngilop

2013-02-08, 08:41 PM

well its a mix of PF rules OR 3.5 rules wherein it suits the character in question the best.

SO I never really thought about the turn undead,
but

It be easy enough to take out an abomination of nature just by being like 5th or 6th level and being a diplomancer

but enough of that time to go all in

won't need to be gestalt I think..

EDIT WHILE still writing
I was trying to look up the monster that is immortal ( the Muruspawn abomination) only to find that a built similar but waaaay more streamlined that the one i was attempting is already in existance.

Tleilaxu_Ghola brings you The Terminator (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19861610/TGs_Pun-Pun_Challenger:_34;The_Terminator34;_(Finalized))

(dang i wish i was this good at optimizing LOL)

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-08, 08:43 PM

Irrelevant. She is now a fish. Kill it with a big stick or something. :smalltongue:

It matters if she's a fish that won't suffocate for the few hours a single PaO buys you.

And as a Fish, she still has her entire suite of abilities that aren't attached to her Undead typing or humanoid form.

And actually...since PaO copies Greater Polymorph and in this case would copy Beast Shape IV, she never loses the Undead type in the first place. So you only get an Undead fish that still has all her powers that are not connected directly to her humanoid form.

Huzzah for Pathfinder nerfing Polymorph. I guess.

Morcleon

2013-02-08, 08:43 PM

Mindraping doesn't work on her, unfortunately. I also remember; Can you beat a +33 initiative with ease with these builds? Otherwise yer gonna get speed-blitzed and more than likely take an average of 15 to 25 negative levels, no save without any sort of death ward or immunities.

+33 Init?

Let's go with...

+6 (Dex) +5 (warning weapon) +2 (initiative weapon) +2 (eager weapon) +2 (belt of battle) +4 (Imp Init) +5 (nerveskitter) = +25

...hmm... -.-

+25 (moment of prescience) = +50

Ah, there we go... Get a ring of anticipation (roll init twice, take better result), and you'll have to roll 19 higher than me. :smallwink:

It matters if she's a fish that won't suffocate for the few hours a single PaO buys you.

And as a Fish, she still has her entire suite of abilities that aren't attached to her Undead typing or humanoid form.

And actually...since PaO copies Greater Polymorph and in this case would copy Beast Shape IV, she never loses the Undead type in the first place. So you only get an Undead fish that still has all her powers that are not connected directly to her humanoid form.

Huzzah for Pathfinder nerfing Polymorph. I guess.

No, it's irrelevant because you can just kill the fish like a normal fish.

...I think. Maybe? :smallconfused::smalltongue:

Carth

2013-02-08, 08:45 PM

So I think this can be solved by tacking on some lycanthropy. The shapechanger subtype should allow her to revert to her natural form as a standard action. I'm looking at the PHB polymorph and PAO, so if those have been errata'd substantially, this fix might not work.

There's an extent to which that works, but as pointed out:

Irrelevant. She is now a fish. Kill it with a big stick or something. :smalltongue:

It's not likely she's going to get that standard action in time, twinned celerity gives a a couple opportunities to just cast destruction on the fish, or something. Without class abilities to jack up saves, there's basically no chance the fish survives, is there? I didn't look at how those high saves are obtained.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-08, 08:46 PM

No, it's irrelevant because you can just kill the fish like a normal fish.

...I think. Maybe? :smallconfused::smalltongue:

Nope, she has the shape of a normal fish.

Anything that isn't given by her gear or requires her to be humanoid, she still has.

Thump

2013-02-08, 08:47 PM

+33 Init?

Let's go with...

+6 (Dex) +5 (warning weapon) +2 (initiative weapon) +2 (eager weapon) +2 (belt of battle) +4 (Imp Init) +5 (nerveskitter) = +25

...hmm... -.-

+25 (moment of prescience) = +50

Ah, there we go... Get a ring of anticipation (roll init twice, take better result), and you'll have to roll 19 higher than me. :smallwink:

Hrm... even with 720 or so damage in a round, do you have any kind of protection from negative energy or fire? Or super high AC? Even if you're immune to the physical damage, you're at risk from potentially being almost instagibbed due to negative levels hitting all your spells and caster-level and such.

Thump

2013-02-08, 08:48 PM

There's an extent to which that works, but as pointed out:

It's not likely she's going to get that standard action in time, twinned celerity gives a a couple opportunities to just cast destruction on the fish, or something. Without class abilities to jack up saves, there's basically no chance the fish survives, is there? I didn't look at how those high saves are obtained.

They're ALL class abilities (save 33 points from being a Nymph). Even without, they're still all 70-plus saves.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-08, 08:49 PM

They're ALL class abilities (save 33 points from being a Nymph). Even without, they're still all 70-plus saves.

How many abilities does she have that rely on either gear or having a humanoid shape, by the by?

Carth

2013-02-08, 08:51 PM

Actually, it looks like PF made PAO (mimicking baleful polymorph) even worse for her. If you fail the second save, you immediately get the mental ability scores of the creature you turn into. So the dweomerkeeper could just wait for that to happen.

She doesn't have celerity capabilities right? That's the only assumption that's needed for her to be imprisoned in the first place.

Thump

2013-02-08, 08:52 PM

How many abilities does she have that rely on either gear or having a humanoid shape, by the by?

Pretty much none. Ninja grants Wis to AC (converted to CHA), Oracle grants DEX being replaced by CHA to AC (no limit since not wearing armor), Antipaladin grants CHA to saves, and feats grant basically CHA to all saves. (Steadfast Determination uses CON for Will saves, but since I don't have a CON score, it's replaced by Charisma. Also, DM ruled that since I'm immune to anything that needs a FORT save, I don't fail on a 1 on will saves.)

Morcleon

2013-02-08, 08:53 PM

Hrm... even with 720 or so damage in a round, do you have any kind of protection from negative energy or fire? Or super high AC? Even if you're immune to the physical damage, you're at risk from potentially being almost instagibbed due to negative levels hitting all your spells and caster-level and such.

Energy immunity (fire). Ring of Negative Protection. The first grants immunity to fire damage, the second makes you unable to gain negative levels.

As for AC, let's go with a monk's belt (with ascetic mage), a battledancer dip, and the spell sirine's grace, you get (assuming a +25 Cha, which is reasonable, considering your +33) an additional +80 AC. Now get greater luminous armor (+8), shield (+4) and an amulet of nat armor +5 (+5), (with the aformentioned +6 Dex) and you've given your caster an AC of 113.

And that's without things like displacement and greater mirror image... :smallwink:

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-08, 08:56 PM

Actually, it looks like PF made PAO (mimicking baleful polymorph) even worse for her. If you fail the second save, you immediately get the mental ability scores of the creature you turn into. So the dweomerkeeper could just wait for that to happen.

Yeah, selecting to mimic Baleful is the better move, though I wonder if you use PaO duration or Baleful's in that regard.

Edit:

Actually, what is her Will save and what's the DC to beat it?

tyckspoon

2013-02-08, 08:56 PM

Thought I had something (Limited Wish "I automatically hit" -> Antimagic Ray, disabling her spells and Supernatural abilities, including pretty much everything she's using to get Cha to various things. From there it's a relatively simple matter of burning her down with any of the known means of attacking people inside an AMF) but on checking Antimagic Ray permits a Will save for some silly reason.

Hmm.. (Pathfinder) Arcane Archer using Imbue Arrow to launch a Quickened AMF and then volley-shooting her into dust? I'm not sure just how many of Riruka's defenses this removes, but it's a pretty good number- I know the Cha-to-AC from Nymph and Oracle are suppressed, as well as Cha-to-saves from Nymph and Antipaladin, so that's -66 AC and saves (well, I suppose the Oracle one would just make her revert to using Dex instead of Cha, but her Dex is nothing special.)

Thump

2013-02-08, 09:00 PM

okay, I give here.

Can't do anything against this swarm of better optimization.

:smallwink:

Carth

2013-02-08, 09:07 PM

okay, I give here.

Can't do anything against this swarm of better optimization.

:smallwink:

The only thing I've seen lately that's stood up well against an open call to kill it is that thing that relied on turning into a protean. It worked, though in the process it amusingly made its whole premise moot, as it was supposed to be about a fighter beating casters, though the fact that it won didn't have anything to do with its class levels. Though I didn't follow that thread closely, stuff might have been able to beat it, even in spite of its author's tendency to make every possible tortuous rule interpretation go in their favor.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-02-08, 09:18 PM

Venusaur

2013-02-08, 09:21 PM

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-08, 09:23 PM

Ummm... this is an epic wizard. He doesn't need to be physically present. Anything from Chain of Eyes to Astral Projection. Or, Epic Seed: Divination. Not targeting her, of course, in case she has Mind Blank, but targeting the area in which she currently resides.

Also, I said Mindraping deities, not mindraping her. You know, Summon Bigger Fish type spell.

I reiterate, there's no Epic Magic in Pathfinder, so I don't think it's on the table.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-02-08, 09:26 PM

I reiterate, there's no Epic Magic in Pathfinder, so I don't think it's on the table.

Neither is ToB, yet it is being used in the character... your point?

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-08, 09:28 PM

Neither is ToB, yet it is being used in the character... your point?

No rules in Pathfinder supersede the concept of Tome of Battle though. Pathfinder's Magic system supersedes 3.5's Magic system, so until Thump says he's allowing Epic Magic, it's not an option.

Immabozo

2013-02-08, 09:30 PM

I have a non gestalt level 28 character that might be able to kill her with 16 vorporal attacks per round, and an AC of 100. Your to hit is to low to hit me save on a crit, and confirmed on a nat 20. I would have many more rolls per round than you and odds are a I will crit you first, with a vorporal attack.

Making the character gestalt, along with optomizing him more than I have would put me well withing hitting you with every attack, every time, except on a 1. 16 attacks per round with an average damage of 500 (before gestalt) and one crit kills you, He'll kick your rear end any day of the week

Coidzor

2013-02-08, 09:31 PM

I reiterate, there's no Epic Magic in Pathfinder, so I don't think it's on the table.

We're using Pathfinder base rules set and then 3.5 for everything not covered.

Unless Pathfinder specifically denied the existence of Epic Magic in its rules set, then Epic Magic is a fair suggestion. Well, not fair, but...

Battleship789

2013-02-08, 09:31 PM

Does Riruka have SR? I can't see it on the stat block anywhere, so I assume that is a no. With that in mind:

Sorcerer 18 with Rapid Metamagic and Sanctum Spell as feats. Foresight, Celerity, Greater Arcane Fusion and Magic Missile/Hail of Stone/Orb of Force as spells. A casting of True Seeing or an item that gives True Seeing constantly is probably needed to see Riruka.

Precast Foresight. In combat, Celerity -> Greater Arcane Fusion -> Sanctum Greater Arcane Fusion loop for infinite Magic Missile/Hail of Stone/Orb of Force (only Orb of Force requires a Greater Arcane Fusion, the others can be done with a normal Arcane Fusion.)

Going with infinite Magic Missiles does infinite force damage, with no save or attack roll required. Infinite Hail of Stone does infinite untyped damage, again no save/attack roll. Infinite Orb of Force attacks an infinite number of times, auto-hitting on a 20, which results in an (technically smaller number of) infinite number of hits doing infinite damage, no save/SR.

Stupidly cheesy, but there you go.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-08, 09:32 PM

Unless Pathfinder specifically denied the existence of Epic Magic in its rules set, then Epic Magic is a fair suggestion. Well, not fair, but...

Assuming Thump allows it. Which would be ridiculous since everyone and their granny knows that Epic Magic is basically Pun-Pun Lite.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-02-08, 09:34 PM

Assuming Thump allows it. Which would be ridiculous since everyone and their granny knows that Epic Magic is basically Pun-Pun Lite.

So is template-stacking to mimic the Emerald Legion. If you're going to play in the deep end, best bring your bat-shark-repellent.

Jack_Simth

2013-02-08, 09:36 PM

AC 125 says hello.
Irrelevant. It's not a touch attack. It's an area spell. Normally caps at 5d4, but that's what Reserves of Strength is for.

Which by RAW, whoever wrote that forgot what happens with such, and probably should have an errata somewhere. If there's not...

idfk.

@Morcelon

Doesn't Hail of Stone have this description?

You create a rain of stones that deal damage to creatures and objects they strike.
Make a ranged attack roll (not ranged touch) against every creature and relevant object in the spell's area.
Your bonus for this attack roll is equal to your caster level plus your relevant ability modifier (Intelligence for wizards or Charisma for sorcerers).
A successful hit deals 1d4 points of damage per caster level, to a maximum of 5d4.
Material Component: A piece of jade worth at least 5 gp.Nope. See the Spell Compendium, page 108-109. Neither save nor SR nor Attack roll. It's a small area, though. Reserves of Strength pops the cap off the spell.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-08, 09:37 PM

So is template-stacking to mimic the Emerald Legion. If you're going to play in the deep end, best bring your bat-shark-repellent.

That's a logic jump right there. Asking to break apart a tough PC, even approaching Tarrasque-Lite levels of durability, does not automatically give license or even warrant bringing in a universe buster to do the job.

Coidzor

2013-02-08, 09:42 PM

Assuming Thump allows it. Which would be ridiculous since everyone and their granny knows that Epic Magic is basically Pun-Pun Lite.

Epic play is pretty ridiculous, yeah.

That's a logic jump right there. Asking to break apart a tough PC, even approaching Tarrasque-Lite levels of durability, does not automatically give license or even warrant bringing in a universe buster to do the job.

It definitely does give license if they don't put some kind of limitation on the request. Carte blanche is as carte blanche does.

If he didn't want it discussed he's had plenty of opportunity to say so since it came up and amend the OP anyway.

Thump

2013-02-08, 09:43 PM

Just to make things clear; Pathfinder rules override 3.5 rules, as do their classes (unless it's alternate class versus base class, such as ninja vs ninja or samurai vs samurai, depends what you want.). Anything not in pathfinder that is in 3.5 such as ToB or spells from Complete Arcane and the like (e.g. Hail of Stones, which I got stuff cleared up about earlier) is a go.

Epic Magic is a no-go, seeing as it is indeed Pun-Pun Lite.

I was expecting more realistic stuff and not cheese (I wasn't thinking about being Tarrasque Lite when I made this, it was more of just watching too much anime and getting the idea of making a badass character that says no to swords and most magic.). Admittedly, most of it isn't cheese, but infinite loops are. I'm going off what was set up in the game I'm going to run this character in (it's in the PbP section.)

Also, what's Emerald Legion?

Coidzor

2013-02-08, 09:45 PM

Epic Magic is a no-go, seeing as it is indeed Pun-Pun Lite.

Fair enough.

I was expecting more realistic stuff and not cheese

You're asking for more realistic stuff rather than cheese to fight your cheese? At ECL 32? Really? That's the tack you want to take? :smallconfused:

The Emerald Legion is more or less unkillable legions of bad news. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587)

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-08, 09:48 PM

It definitely does give license if they don't put some kind of limitation on the request. Carte blanche is as carte blanche does.

If he didn't want it discussed he's had plenty of opportunity to say so since it came up and amend the OP anyway.

That's why I said "automatically". There are plenty of ways to attempt to kill her that don't require using "DM Fiat-3".

Thump

2013-02-08, 09:51 PM

Fair enough.

You're asking for more realistic stuff rather than cheese to fight your cheese? At ECL 32? Really? That's the tack you want to take? :smallconfused:

ECL 30*.

I realize now I flubbed in wording. I wasn't expecting infinite loops/Celerity/variants (the entire line is kind of broken IMO) or such, is what I meant. Didn't mean to come off as rude/conscending or anything that I don't know the word for right now, but yeh.

Newcomers, please read the rest of the thread before posting (It just gets irritating to repost or have to have someone else do it.)

It looks like that this character is basically vulnerable to no-save-no-SR spells or anything that can immobilize her, similar to Alex Mercer (Prototype).
Maybe boosting initiative would help just to be able to act first, or scrying protection to take away a Wizard's element of scry-and-die.

Coidzor

2013-02-08, 09:51 PM

That's why I said "automatically". There are plenty of ways to attempt to kill her that don't require using "DM Fiat-3".

Well, good thing that's not what happened then, isn't it? :smallconfused: It was originally an aside after a fair bit of discussion, and the person making the aside was discussing a legitimate tactic anyway.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-02-08, 09:52 PM

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-08, 09:57 PM

Well, good thing that's not what happened then, isn't it? :smallconfused: It was originally an aside after a fair bit of discussion, and the person making the aside was discussing a legitimate tactic anyway.

Which is fine and dandy. I was just pointing out how Epic Magic wasn't necessarily even an option to begin with, since Thump had made it specific that he was using Pathfinder rules as the base for everything being discussed here, which should preclude Epic anything.

But, that was a gray area that's since been clarified as not being a viable option.

Thump

2013-02-08, 09:58 PM

Eh, someone already posted the arbitrary damage spam from about level 16 or so which I referred to in my original post. Really, you honestly don't expect this?

Plus, I still don't see Immunity to Fear, and if I recall correctly, Intimidate is explicitly called out as NOT mind-affecting in Pathfinder. So there's still the Takahashi method of lockdown. HD check, DC: Yea Right. Heck, my level 13 Takahashi could practically lock you down. You don't want to know what a level 30 gestalt one with Pathfinder stuff can do. Oh, and since it isn't a saving throw, a natural 20 doesn't auto-succeed.

Aren't Undead immune to fear? Nope, they aren't. At least, sentient ones aren't.

Same thing for my character, though; She also has a +91 to Intimidate, with the same feats.

wait... wouldn't that lock down pretty much any caster without immunity to fear?

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-02-08, 10:00 PM

ECL 30*.

I realize now I flubbed in wording. I wasn't expecting infinite loops/Celerity/variants (the entire line is kind of broken IMO) or such, is what I meant. Didn't mean to come off as rude/conscending or anything that I don't know the word for right now, but yeh.Well, you see... when you start stacking templates that normally can't be stacked... the kid gloves kinda come off.

Besides... you're stacking Dryad on top of HOW many iterations of Evolved Undead... and yet Celerity is cheese? Looks like we have two VERY different definitions of the term.

It looks like that this character is basically vulnerable to no-save-no-SR spells or anything that can immobilize her, similar to Alex Mercer (Prototype).
Maybe boosting initiative would help just to be able to act first, or scrying protection to take away a Wizard's element of scry-and-die.

Plenty of ways to bypass scry protection. I was operating under the assumption that you had Mind Blank always on. And there's no way you're going to actually get to go first against any kind of caster. They just have too many ways of going first. Heck, a simple "Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack" means that even if you go first, they still go first.

Heck, dropping a few Necklace of Fireballs and dropping a few more Delayed Blast Fireballs ought to blow her up. All done within a Time Stop. Sure, you'll make all of your Reflex saves... but I don't see Evasion on the sheet anywhere. Half of ten thousand damage is still five thousand damage.

Aren't Undead immune to fear? Nope, they aren't. At least, sentient ones aren't.

Same thing for my character, though; She also has a +91 to Intimidate, with the same feats.

wait... wouldn't that lock down pretty much any caster without immunity to fear?

Doesn't have Imperious Command, which is the big one. Or a way of Intimidating plus doing anything in the same round to keep it on perma-lockdown.

Thump

2013-02-08, 10:47 PM

Well, you see... when you start stacking templates that normally can't be stacked... the kid gloves kinda come off.

Besides... you're stacking Dryad on top of HOW many iterations of Evolved Undead... and yet Celerity is cheese? Looks like we have two VERY different definitions of the term.

Plenty of ways to bypass scry protection. I was operating under the assumption that you had Mind Blank always on. And there's no way you're going to actually get to go first against any kind of caster. They just have too many ways of going first. Heck, a simple "Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack" means that even if you go first, they still go first.

Heck, dropping a few Necklace of Fireballs and dropping a few more Delayed Blast Fireballs ought to blow her up. All done within a Time Stop. Sure, you'll make all of your Reflex saves... but I don't see Evasion on the sheet anywhere. Half of ten thousand damage is still five thousand damage.

Doesn't have Imperious Command, which is the big one. Or a way of Intimidating plus doing anything in the same round to keep it on perma-lockdown.
Nymph. 20 levels of a class to gain Undead = can get Evolved Undead.
11th level feat; Imperious Command. Cornugon Smash at 7th level. Immunity to fire through Universal Energy Immunity ring.

Sixteen iterations of it because I got bored of trying to find class combos and realized just how much stat ups it would give. Less class features and no casting in exchange for SLAs, stat ups, and AC ups. Don't see how it's cheese compared to Celerity, which in itself is broken with Foresight-Celerity-Timestop which is basically cheese (Never surprised, so you can act, cast Greater Celerity and interrupt the other guy's turn, and Timestop and deal ten googleplex damage. Search up epic d&d party vs alex mercer, and you'll see exactly why it's so broken.) in it's own right.

Battleship789

2013-02-08, 10:48 PM

ECL 30*.

I realize now I flubbed in wording. I wasn't expecting infinite loops/Celerity/variants (the entire line is kind of broken IMO) or such, is what I meant. Didn't mean to come off as rude/conscending or anything that I don't know the word for right now, but yeh.

Newcomers, please read the rest of the thread before posting (It just gets irritating to repost or have to have someone else do it.)

It looks like that this character is basically vulnerable to no-save-no-SR spells or anything that can immobilize her, similar to Alex Mercer (Prototype).
Maybe boosting initiative would help just to be able to act first, or scrying protection to take away a Wizard's element of scry-and-die.

If you throw in this line,

I want to see just how many ways there are to kill this admittedly almost-invincible character.

expect shenanigans.

For being a level 30 gestalt character, the character really isn't that threatening, to be honest. She uses a basic charger build with some Charisma synergy. The only thing that is even relatively impressive for a level 30 gestalt character is her saves and to a lesser extent, AC/HP, which requires dubiously legal template stacking for it to be as useful as it is. (Without the Evolved Undead stacking, her Charisma is 44, which drops her saves by 48 each, her AC by 48, her Initiative by 16, and her HP by 480, greatly reducing her defenses. Additionally, it drops her Strength to 28, which impacts her offensive capabilities.)

She has no great immunities/defenses from the build itself (other than the saves/AC/HP, only WBL related), has very few ways to set up her charge attacks (limited to straight line charges at ground/jump level only), and practically nothing to offset various defenses (miss chance, mirror images, flying, invisibility, etc.)

Thump

2013-02-08, 11:04 PM

Nymph. 20 levels of a class to gain Undead = can get Evolved Undead.
11th level feat; Imperious Command. Cornugon Smash at 7th level. Immunity to fire through Universal Energy Immunity ring.

Sixteen iterations of it because I got bored of trying to find class combos and realized just how much stat ups it would give. Less class features and no casting in exchange for SLAs, stat ups, and AC ups. Don't see how it's cheese compared to Celerity, which in itself is broken with Foresight-Celerity-Timestop which is basically cheese (Never surprised, so you can act, cast Greater Celerity and interrupt the other guy's turn, and Timestop and deal ten googleplex damage. Search up epic d&d party vs alex mercer, and you'll see exactly why it's so broken.) in it's own right.

Add in the Nymph's racial casting, and you get Fly. Ring of True Seeing is something I should have added, thanks for reminding me. (Not actually sarcastic here.)

Was just requoting that since I got ninja'd onto the last page.

Battleship789

2013-02-08, 11:17 PM

Add in the Nymph's racial casting, and you get Fly. Ring of True Seeing is something I should have added, thanks for reminding me. (Not actually sarcastic here.)

Was just requoting that since I got ninja'd onto the last page.

Ah, thanks. Still, that Fly is pretty easy to dispel with CL 7...

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-08, 11:51 PM

Ah, thanks. Still, that Fly is pretty easy to dispel with CL 7...

Nope, it's either CL 8 or CL 30, depending on how you want to look at it. Nymphs say they cast spells as 7th level Druids, but their stat-block gives them a CL of 8. They have 8 hit dice, which shows that the CL is tied into hit dice and not "cast as X level of Class Y".

I'm still looking for any Dev rulings on whether it's total HD or RHD though.

Thump

2013-02-09, 12:25 AM

Nope, it's either CL 8 or CL 30, depending on how you want to look at it. Nymphs say they cast spells as 7th level Druids, but their stat-block gives them a CL of 8. They have 8 hit dice, which shows that the CL is tied into hit dice and not "cast as X level of Class Y".

I'm still looking for any Dev rulings on whether it's total HD or RHD though.

Hang on, I'm going off the Nymph from 3.5, because the LA made calculating stuff easier. Are you telling me that nymphs may have druid casting equal to CR or half HD plus CHA? Because both of those seem to match up for formulas in this.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-09, 01:00 AM

Hang on, I'm going off the Nymph from 3.5, because the LA made calculating stuff easier. Are you telling me that nymphs may have druid casting equal to CR or half HD plus CHA? Because both of those seem to match up for formulas in this.

No, I'm not saying the bolded.

In Pathfinder, the Nymph is a CR 7 creature with 8 HD. If you use Pathfinder's "Monsters as PCs" rules, the Nymph is equal to a 7th level character out of the gate. What isn't specific if its Caster level is only attached to its racial hd or its total hd.

Thump

2013-02-09, 01:05 AM

No, I'm not saying the bolded.

In Pathfinder, the Nymph is a CR 7 creature with 8 HD. If you use Pathfinder's "Monsters as PCs" rules, the Nymph is equal to a 7th level character out of the gate. What isn't specific if its Caster level is only attached to its racial hd or its total hd.

...That makes even less sense.

If it has 8 HD, and then its WIS modifier is +3, wouldn't that also total to 7?

I have no bloody idea how they calculated this stuff...

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-09, 01:27 AM

...That makes even less sense.

If it has 8 HD, and then its WIS modifier is +3, wouldn't that also total to 7?

I have no bloody idea how they calculated this stuff...

I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say, sorry.

Thump

2013-02-09, 01:47 AM

I'm trying to figure out how they calculated the casting that the nymph gets. In both 3.5 and Pathfinder, they have 7th-level druid casting, and the only common thing I'm finding in general calculations would be...

In 3.5, racial casting abilities tend to be based off Charisma, like spell-like abilities, more often than not. With this assumption, I would take half their HD (half of 6 HD is 3), and add their Charisma modifier, which is 4, to get seven, which happens to be related to the seventh-level druid casting.

In Pathfinder, however, they are based correctly off of the right attributes (Dragons with cleric casting base off of WIS, if they have sorcerer casting it goes off of Charisma, etc...), though to figure out how they calculate the level of casting, I have no idea other than the same formula; Take half the hit dice and add the right modifier. In this case, since it's druid casting, it is WIS-based. Thus, half of the Nymph's 8 RHD is four, plus the +3 modifier from having a 17 wisdom is again, seven, which holds the same number as the effective druid level for casting.

I'm trying to figure out if this is how it was made, and if it would advance any further if the RHD or modifier was increased...

i'm rambling now. I need to sleep.

tyckspoon

2013-02-09, 01:54 AM

It's not 'calculated'. The 3.5 Nymph has 7th-level casting because somebody decided it would be cute to have a CR 7 creature casting as a 7th level character (nevermind that 7th level Druid casting would be at least CR 7 all on its own without the other assorted benefits Nymphs get.. but there's no point complaining about CR, we already know it's best guesses at the best of times.) The Pathfinder Nymph, then, likely has 7th level casting for no other reason than that the 3.5 version had it, and there was no compelling reason to change it. I would be curious why they felt the Nymph needed an HD bump and a significantly higher Charisma, but that's not related to the spellcasting.

Sheogoroth

2013-02-09, 01:56 AM

Can you teleport someone to the surface of the sun?

Thump

2013-02-09, 01:59 AM

i don't even know.

http://rlv.zcache.com/stop_overthinking_the_solutions_to_problems_card-p137166492358446871envwi_400.jpg

i probably should just listen to that.

tyckspoon

2013-02-09, 02:41 AM

Can you teleport someone to the surface of the sun?

Yes, but I'd be surprised if you can find a way to do it that doesn't allow a save, so this is basically just a variation on the 'spam save-or-dies and hope she rolls a 1/transport her to somewhere hostile' plan. Also, as an Undead creature with Fire Immunity, Riruka is likely in no actual danger from being sent to the sun, and can (eventually) bring herself back home with her Nymph based spellcasting. She'll probably have a few more layers of Evolved Undead by the time she gets back.

Thump

2013-02-09, 02:57 AM

Xerxus

2013-02-09, 05:22 AM

How many of your abilities are (SU) supernatural?

Kelb_Panthera

2013-02-09, 05:27 AM

Doesn't Gate have a Will save or Reflex save? If so, unless the DC is in high-triple digits, it's a pass.

Also, Fly is accessible via racial druid casting. Find a way to get bludgeoning with ranged attacks and I'll be surprised. (AC is also 125.)

I haven't read the whole thread, but RotW has bludgeoning arrows. So ranged bludgeoning damage is a thing.

A comment on the evolved undead stacking: undead have a chance to evolve once a century. By stacking it sixteen times you're either declaring that your character is absolutely not less than 1600 years old or that DM fiat allowed you to have it at a much accelerated rate.

Immabozo

2013-02-10, 02:03 PM

Technically, if going at 120ft per round, she could make it from the Sun to Earth in ~50 years of nonstop walking, or 10 years of nonstop sprinting through space... depends how that would work, though. If she kicked an asteroid with a 60 STR, the lack of air resistance could speed that up even more.

This is assuming that the vacuum of space doesn't instantly pull you apart. Undead or not, your bones still have air inside them, there is a giant cranial cavity where your brain used to be/whats left of it still is, there could easily be air trapped in a joint. So the sun may not kill you, but the vacuum might.

Then there is the gravity issue. Good luck escaping that with less than a rocket. So you might not be dead, but living at the center of the sun for all eternity, you are dead to everyone else. And you might just kill yourself.

Spuddles

2013-02-10, 09:22 PM

Your perception score is only +40.

Class: small race with trickery & domain.

Item: vorpal anything.

A level 10 character auto passes your perception check: +15 (Divine Insight insight) + 13(ranks/pf bonus) + 8 (size, with potion of reduce) + 10 (forestfold, circumstance) +5 (distracting shadows, penalty) +2 (MW tool) + 4 (dex) + 15 (item familiar, stealthy, skill focus) +10 (camouflage, circumstance), +10 (item, competence) + 8 (collar umbral metamorphosis, untyped) = You cannot detect me while I charge you (that is a hide check of +100, btw).

Use Darklight to create an area to hide in. The collar gives me Hide in Plain Sight.

I use two surge of fortunes (cast prior to engaging while hiding, following you), followed by charging you in the surprise round (standard action) and drawing (more than +1 BAB, drawn as part of movement) my vorpal whatever. Thanks to the darkness spell on my weapon, I can hide in the concealment (part of movement). Then I attack you, discharging the first surge of fortune to treat my attack roll as a natural 20, followed by discharging my second to confirm the crit.

Snicker snack.

Immabozo

2013-02-11, 12:35 AM

Any character with high initiative and a bow and this arrow.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/s720x720/522630_10150900661888625_829178624_12894060_157796 545_n.jpg

Muktidata

2013-02-11, 01:00 AM

Thump

2013-02-11, 09:23 AM

Is this an impressive character? I'm pretty sure most Iron Siege characters would trounce it. AC is completely useless at level 30. Negative levels? Hahaha.

I think it might be a greater challenge to make a level 30 gestalt that can't kill that character.

Well, how is it useless? It says "no" to anyone trying to melee or ranged or touch, only Reflex saves can fail on a one, complete immunity to any kind of energy (save force), and will demolish anyone unprepared.

Note how Scrying and Greater Scrying have "will save negates".

Riruka says "no" to scry 'n die wizards, any kind of melee, ranged or w/e short of falling objects that weigh more than 66,000 pounds, anything relying on Combat Maneuvers (won't work anyways).

The level 10 character forementioned can't afford the Vorpal sword, as it would cost 72,000 gold, and the WBL is only 62000 for that. Until level 14 or so, it's not even affordable because of the fact that he can't have one item that makes up 50% of his WBL or more.

Amnestic

2013-02-11, 09:59 AM

Thump

2013-02-11, 10:06 AM

So you can only be killed by someone 1/2 your level, not 1/3rd? :smalltongue:

Admittedly, I should find a way to give her immunity to crits so that doesn't happen.

:P

Darth_Versity

2013-02-11, 12:19 PM

Is this character immune to Force damage in any way? I can see its immune to Energy but cant see anything stopping force effects.

If not, Sorcerer with Rapid Metamagic, Sanctum Spell and Arcane Fusion and cast an infinite set of magic missles. Ignores AC and Saves and can cause as much damage as needed.

(Sorry if this is already mentioned, lot of pages and little time)

Spuddles

2013-02-11, 01:06 PM

The level 10 character forementioned can't afford the Vorpal sword, as it would cost 72,000 gold, and the WBL is only 62000 for that. Until level 14 or so, it's not even affordable because of the fact that he can't have one item that makes up 50% of his WBL or more.

There is no hard rule that you can't have an item worth more than 1/2 your WBL. Regardless, non-epic item optimization easily kills your character. Using scrolls to get vorpal effect & an artificer, it's probably possible to get a sub-level 10 kill without gestalt.

A similar build would use a piece of paper with Explosive Runes cast on it 10,000 times, a safety pin, a sleight of hand check, and a targeted dispel magic cast at CL5 using Arcane Mastery.

Thump

2013-02-11, 02:27 PM

There is no hard rule that you can't have an item worth more than 1/2 your WBL. Regardless, non-epic item optimization easily kills your character. Using scrolls to get vorpal effect & an artificer, it's probably possible to get a sub-level 10 kill without gestalt.

A similar build would use a piece of paper with Explosive Runes cast on it 10,000 times, a safety pin, a sleight of hand check, and a targeted dispel magic cast at CL5 using Arcane Mastery.

True that. I thought that there was a hard rule on it, but upon searching I found no such rule, so it turned out a house rule.

So it looks like explosive runes could do that to just about anything without regeneration. So, upon fixing the sheet I made a few changes to it. Does it look like a viable build?

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-11, 02:56 PM

Riruka isn't a vampire though, so cutting her head off has no detrimental effect.

Thump

2013-02-11, 03:06 PM

Riruka isn't a vampire though, so cutting her head off has no detrimental effect.

Waht?
She's an intelligent undead, but cutting her head off should still kill her. She loses sight, hearing and smell....
If only regeneration didn't need a con score.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-11, 03:38 PM

Waht?
She's an intelligent undead, but cutting her head off should still kill her. She loses sight, hearing and smell....
If only regeneration didn't need a con score.

Nope.

This potent and feared ability allows the weapon to sever the heads of those it strikes.

Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent's head (if it has one) from its body. Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off. A vorpal weapon must be a slashing melee weapon. If you roll this special ability randomly for an inappropriate weapon, reroll.

Bolded relevant text.

Riruka mechanically suffers not an ioata for losing her head. And since negative energy fills all the necessary functions, her senses would be the same too (albeit attached to her severed head most likely).

Xerxus

2013-02-11, 03:56 PM

Vorpal is the weirdest enchantment. Why wouldn't my sword lop off heads on a crit anyway? Do I need some special magic for the neck, or what is it?

Morcleon

2013-02-11, 03:58 PM

Vorpal is the weirdest enchantment. Why wouldn't my sword lop off heads on a crit anyway? Do I need some special magic for the neck, or what is it?

Because a critical hit is just a particularly vital strike. It doesn't necessarily indicate an auto-kill. Vorpal just makes it an auto-kill.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-11, 04:08 PM

Morcleon

2013-02-11, 04:10 PM

No, the true weird thing about the Vorpal enchantment is that it beheads in the first place. The original vorpal sword never specifies what it is exactly capable of, just that it makes a "Snicker Snack" sound and was a weapon potent enough to kill the Jabberwocky in one swing.

If you read the poem carefully, it's actually four strokes. :smallwink:

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-11, 04:13 PM

If you read the poem carefully, it's actually four strokes. :smallwink:

And there's my memory showing. :smallsigh:

But yeah, otherwise my point stands. The vorpal sword/blade has nothing to show that it wasn't just a magic sword (if it even was so).

Morcleon

2013-02-11, 04:15 PM

And there's my memory showing. :smallsigh:

But yeah, otherwise my point stands. The vorpal sword/blade has nothing to show that it wasn't just a magic sword (if it even was so).

Yep. Vorpal really had no meaning until D&D made it into a decapitator.

Amnestic

2013-02-11, 04:20 PM

Riruka mechanically suffers not an ioata for losing her head. And since negative energy fills all the necessary functions, her senses would be the same too (albeit attached to her severed head most likely).

Score one for the Pathfinder Dysfunctional Rules collection, I guess?

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-11, 04:25 PM

Score one for the Pathfinder Dysfunctional Rules collection, I guess?

Dysfunctional how?

They copied it word for word from 3.5's text on the Vorpal enchantment.

Besides, it makes sense anyways. Undead creatures don't need to eat or breathe or sleep and are animated by negative energy. Negative energy allows them to function perfectly regardless of what condition their body is in (like an intelligent skeleton being able to talk and run, regardless of missing a voice box or muscles) and means they don't even normally carry disease and don't rot away.

So what's wrong with the logical conclusion of them losing their head doing nothing? If negative energy and not the body is the important bit, you can just sew or glue it back on.

Amnestic

2013-02-11, 04:37 PM

Dysfunctional how?

They copied it word for word from 3.5's text on the Vorpal enchantment.

Besides, it makes sense anyways. Undead creatures don't need to eat or breathe or sleep and are animated by negative energy. Negative energy allows them to function perfectly regardless of what condition their body is in (like an intelligent skeleton being able to talk and run, regardless of missing a voice box or muscles) and means they don't even normally carry disease and don't rot away.

So what's wrong with the logical conclusion of them losing their head doing nothing? If negative energy and not the body is the important bit, you can just sew or glue it back on.

Suffering no mechanical penalty for lacking a head doesn't seem like a dysfunction to you? No comments on perception, disruption of negative energy or ability to control the body?

I mean, does that extend to other body parts too? If the head still works and it can still perceive, could say...a limb work seperately? Could we get a Thing (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/51/149890243_d06208bb80.jpg) situation? Could you pop out a (rotten) eyeball, tape it to your (disconnected) hand and send that scuttling ahead to scout for you?

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-11, 04:46 PM

Suffering no mechanical penalty for lacking a head doesn't seem like a dysfunction to you? No comments on perception, disruption of negative energy or ability to control the body?

Seeing as the explanation we have for the animating force of Undead in d20? Not really.

I mean, does that extend to other body parts too? If the head still works and it can still perceive, could say...a limb work seperately? Could we get a Thing (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/51/149890243_d06208bb80.jpg) situation? Could you pop out a (rotten) eyeball, tape it to your (disconnected) hand and send that scuttling ahead to scout for you?

Just because negative energy automatically "patches the holes" so to speak doesn't mean you'd have control over how it does its business.

Amnestic

2013-02-11, 04:48 PM

Just because negative energy automatically "patches the holes" so to speak doesn't mean you'd have control over how it does its business.

It allows sensory transfer and control (speaking, comprehension, moving your eyes to look at things) for heads - why wouldn't it do the same for limbs?

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-11, 04:54 PM

It allows sensory transfer and control (speaking, comprehension, moving your eyes to look at things) for heads - why wouldn't it do the same for limbs?

What you're describing is a conscious control over the animating force of negative energy, when negative energy acts more as an autonomic force.

Amnestic

2013-02-11, 05:15 PM

What you're describing is a conscious control over the animating force of negative energy, when negative energy acts more as an autonomic force.

Are there rules to support that? And if it acts as an autonomic force, wouldn't that mechanically hinder the character if it loses the head? The player would then lose personal control over either the body or the head while the 'other part' would be controlled by...I dunno, the DM, to represent the "autonomic Negative Energy", until they were re-attached to allow them to assume direct control?

This is, I admit, something of a tangent, but it still relates to the effectiveness of vorpal weapons on intelligent non-vampire undead, so I consider it relevant.

Alex Star

2013-02-11, 05:37 PM

Before I say something that gets people upset what is the purpose of this exercise? I mean it's obviously not my thing but it has some sort of appeal to someone so what is that?

Thump

2013-02-11, 05:44 PM

Before I say something that gets people upset what is the purpose of this exercise? I mean it's obviously not my thing but it has some sort of appeal to someone so what is that?

I made this thread to figure out exactly what WOULD kill my character, and also to see some of the funnier stuff, though cheesy stuff is, well... cheese.

It also helped me patch holes in the sheet, and clarified a couple of things for me. I left the thread for dead two days ago, and I came back today and saw it started getting more replies, so I decided to patch some holes as well.

:smalltongue:

Alex Star

2013-02-11, 05:51 PM

I made this thread to figure out exactly what WOULD kill my character, and also to see some of the funnier stuff, though cheesy stuff is, well... cheese.

It also helped me patch holes in the sheet, and clarified a couple of things for me. I left the thread for dead two days ago, and I came back today and saw it started getting more replies, so I decided to patch some holes as well.

:smalltongue:

Oh... okay... then I suppose I'd use a Copy Machine.

I'd take your character sheet here, put it in the Copy Machine, and have Riruka fight an exact copy of herself. Assuming this is to the death.. one of them eventually dies from attrition. Doesn't matter which, either way it turns out the Riruka as built is dead.

Morcleon

2013-02-11, 05:53 PM

Oh... okay... then I suppose I'd use a Copy Machine.

I'd take your character sheet here, put it in the Copy Machine, and have Riruka fight an exact copy of herself. Assuming this is to the death.. one of them eventually dies from attrition. Doesn't matter which, either way it turns out the Riruka as built is dead.

Nah. Use a copy machine, then optimize the feats and equipment much better. :smalltongue:

Alex Star

2013-02-11, 05:57 PM

Nah. Use a copy machine, then optimize the feats and equipment much better. :smalltongue:

LOL see.. lucky rolls could result in even a lesser optimized character winning.

I'd prefer putting the situation together in such that regardless of how the battle ends the result is achieved.

I suppose that's bending the spirit of the competition to declare myself the winner if I have two identical Rirukas fight to the death and I announce that I win if I'm successfully able to predict that at the end Riruka will be dead.

But I for some reason don't feel that it "bends" the spirit any more than builds like this do.

Thump

2013-02-11, 05:58 PM

Nah. Use a copy machine, then optimize the feats and equipment much better. :smalltongue:

Is there anything you guys could suggest right off the bat? I want her to be able to hit stuff, tank blows (have a ridiculous high AC and keep enemies locked down) and chew bubblegum while doing so. (Acutally, I think neither Riruka could win on a 1V1, simply because the damage is fast healed all the time and DR takes care of more. Fire immunity takes care of fire damage, and negative levels... do they heal undead, or not do anything?).

It looks pretty good to me, but it is probably woefully unoptimized to you guys.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-11, 06:21 PM

Are there rules to support that?

There are no mechanical rules to represent how Undead function outside of what their type says they do or do not get or what their creature entry specifically mentions. So if you have an intelligent skeleton, there is no mechanics to explain how it is able to speak.

And if it acts as an autonomic force, wouldn't that mechanically hinder the character if it loses the head?

There are no mechanics to explain what happens to a character when they lose a limb, especially since there are very few rules concerning their loss in the first place. The optional Called Shots rules sort of approach this, but Undead are immune to several things concerning Called Shots. The Vorpal enchanment also approaches this and says that non-Vampires aren't effected by the loss of their head.

The player would then lose personal control over either the body or the head while the 'other part' would be controlled by...I dunno, the DM, to represent the "autonomic Negative Energy", until they were re-attached to allow them to assume direct control?

This really falls into the gray areas of the fluff and DM fiat.

Personally? I'd rule that in the case of non-fatal destruction of a limb or body part of an Undead would result in an incorporeal replacement occupying the same space, created by the negative energy that animates it. As soon as it is subjected to the same amount of negative energy as it was dealt to lose the limb/body part, it would regenerate. But again, this is my personal approach.

This is, I admit, something of a tangent, but it still relates to the effectiveness of vorpal weapons on intelligent non-vampire undead, so I consider it relevant.

Not really. The Vorpal enchantment is cut and dry on how it affects Riruka by RAW.

Morcleon

2013-02-11, 06:32 PM

Is there anything you guys could suggest right off the bat? I want her to be able to hit stuff, tank blows (have a ridiculous high AC and keep enemies locked down) and chew bubblegum while doing so. (Acutally, I think neither Riruka could win on a 1V1, simply because the damage is fast healed all the time and DR takes care of more. Fire immunity takes care of fire damage, and negative levels... do they heal undead, or not do anything?).

It looks pretty good to me, but it is probably woefully unoptimized to you guys.

Replace Endurance, Run, Epic Speed and Imp Crit (falchion) with better feats. Check out this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7044115)

Change out +6 Falchion to +1 Valorous (+1) Keen (+1) Speed (+3) Transmuting (+2) Diamond Mind (+1) Magebane (+1) Life-Drinking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#lifeDrinker) (+18,000 gp) Sudden Stunning (+2000 gp) Falchion. It costs 220,000 gp, and is so much better.

Spend money on Strongarm Bracers, Ring of Sequester, Sparring Dummy of the Master, Slippers of Battledancing. :smallbiggrin:

Thump

2013-02-11, 06:54 PM

Replace Endurance, Run, Epic Speed and Imp Crit (falchion) with better feats. Check out this thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7044115)

Change out +6 Falchion to +1 Valorous (+1) Keen (+1) Speed (+3) Transmuting (+2) Diamond Mind (+1) Magebane (+1) Life-Drinking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#lifeDrinker) (+18,000 gp) Sudden Stunning (+2000 gp) Falchion. It costs 220,000 gp, and is so much better.

Spend money on Strongarm Bracers, Ring of Sequester, Sparring Dummy of the Master, Slippers of Battledancing. :smallbiggrin:

Why the Strongarm Bracers? Wouldn't 32 fire damage versus anything not immune be better than 5 damage all the time?

Morcleon

2013-02-11, 06:58 PM

Why the Strongarm Bracers? Wouldn't 32 fire damage versus anything not immune be better than 5 damage all the time?

Because, for a x1.5 price modifier on the cheaper item, you can get both! :smallbiggrin: Magic item stacking. Pricing goes as follows:

Highest Price Item- (Standard Price)
2nd Highest Price Item and any others- (Standard Price * 1.5)

If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character's body, the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection 2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.

Thump

2013-02-11, 07:12 PM

Because, for a x1.5 price modifier on the cheaper item, you can get both! :smallbiggrin: Magic item stacking. Pricing goes as follows:

Highest Price Item- (Standard Price)
2nd Highest Price Item and any others- (Standard Price * 1.5)

Ahh, okay. Noted a few things though;

A: I don't have any levels of Monk, just one level of Ninja, so the sparring dummy doesn't work.

B: Doesn't the Battledancing Slippers only function with one handed weapons for CHA replacing STR/Dex to attacks and damge?

C: I'm not sure what Magebane, Diamond Mind and Transmuting do. Explain in PM if not able to here please?

Morcleon

2013-02-11, 07:17 PM

Ahh, okay. Noted a few things though;

A: I don't have any levels of Monk, just one level of Ninja, so the sparring dummy doesn't work.

B: Doesn't the Battledancing Slippers only function with one handed weapons for CHA replacing STR/Dex to attacks and damge?

C: I'm not sure what Magebane, Diamond Mind and Transmuting do. Explain in PM if not able to here please?

A. You have a +33 Cha. Get a 1/2 rank in UMD, and you're fine with making the DC 21 UMD check required.

B. ...right you are. >.< If you keep a medium sized weapon, you could do 1H with Strongarm Bracers.

C. Magebane is bane, but for anyone who can cast spells or use SLAs. So basically, everyone. :smalltongue:
Diamond Mind gives you a +1 to attack if you know a Diamond Mind maneuver, and a +3 when you actually use the maneuver.
Transmuting allows you to, upon striking an enemy with DR, to automatically bypass all DR of that enemy on subsequent attacks.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-11, 07:39 PM

Transmuting allows you to, upon striking an enemy with DR, to automatically bypass all DR of that enemy on subsequent attacks.

No, it changes the weapon to be a type that bypasses their DR at the beginning of your next turn. If they have multiple DR on the first hit, what you said is true, but if they gain or lose any, you need to hit them again to deal with this. This lasts for 10 rounds or until you hit something with different DR.

Morcleon

2013-02-11, 07:42 PM

No, it changes the weapon to be a type that bypasses their DR at the beginning of your next turn. If they have multiple DR on the first hit, what you said is true, but if they gain or lose any, you need to hit them again to deal with this. This lasts for 10 rounds or until you hit something with different DR.

Yeah, what he said. :smalltongue:

I don't have my books with me right now, so I was running off memory... -.-

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-11, 07:43 PM

Yeah, what he said. :smalltongue:

I don't have my books with me right now, so I was running off memory... -.-

Hehe, we're just even now. :smallwink:

:smalltongue:

Morcleon

2013-02-11, 07:54 PM

Hehe, we're just even now. :smallwink:

:smalltongue:

...oh, it's on, Tanta, it's on... :smallamused:

Acanous

2013-02-11, 08:05 PM

5 pages and nobody's brought up Tainted Scholar?
Necropolitan Tainted Scholar. Let's put it on an Elf chassis to start with just for the bonus to spell penetration.
Control Undead. DC 1,796,454,382.
Truespell, Moment of Prescience, improved spell penetration. So yeah. You now belong to this character.

A Tainted Scholar could just kill you from level 14 on, with any save-or-lose spell that's SR: No and a DC of "Impossible".

Thump

2013-02-11, 08:21 PM

Spuddles

2013-02-11, 08:21 PM

One of your biggest weaknesses is having things sneak up on you. Pick up the feat lifesense. That mitigates it somewhat. Look in LM.

You should probably pick up a source of freedom of movement. Heavy Fort is cheap enhancement at your level, though I am not sure how much you get out of it.

A spellguard armorspike or ten, to protect vs disjunction, might be a good idea. Cant remember if spellgaurd protects from aoe. It's in a fr book. Is your AC considered monk ac? Can you wear a buckler for the enhancements, or some gnomish twist cloth?

Carth

2013-02-11, 08:24 PM

How in the name of...?

Tainted scholars (Heroes of Horror) use a variant system, where instead of using their casting stat, they use their taint score. Living creatures suffer drawbacks from high taint scores, but if you become undead you suffer no drawbacks for a high taint score. This allows you to get an arbitrarily high taint score, which is equivalent to an arbitrarily high casting stat in terms of the spells per day and save DCs it creates.

The Shadowmind

2013-02-11, 08:27 PM

Would this work?
Binder 30//Factotum 11/Truenamer 19.
Grab a Legacy weapon with the Cunning Property.
Have The Bronze God and the Cephalopocalypse bound as the epic vestiges.
Teneberous for the flicker. Use the Bronze God for Quickened Forcecage, then Cephalopocalype for a Sphere of Annihilation him in the cage, end.
The Truenamer is for spell rebirth, fast healing, and bits here and there.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-11, 08:29 PM

Morcleon

2013-02-11, 08:32 PM

I'm not that familiar with Binder (at least those two vestiges) and Truenamer...but ouch. Killed by a Truenamer.

Truenamer. Chain-gate solars. :smalltongue:

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-11, 08:45 PM

Truenamer. Chain-gate solars. :smalltongue:

Didn't the other thread about that bring up that you can't actually chain-gate Solars and that Titans are the better choice since they get Gate as an SLA?

The Shadowmind

2013-02-11, 08:47 PM

Truenamer. Chain-gate solars. :smalltongue:

This one couldn't do that since that comes at lvl 20, and getting factotum 11 was needed to negate SR/DR. The truenamer comes in for the reverse Spell rebirth when combined with Cunning surge, rips the target of many of their buffs and then boosting skills should not be a problem.

Binder is the meat of the build, but Tkhaluuljin "the Cephalopocalypse" is the main attack, being able to summon that minor artifact that makes things deader then dead.
Truenamer has lots of interesting tricks, but they suffer from bad mechanics and coming to late most of the time.

Carth

2013-02-11, 08:48 PM

Didn't the other thread about that bring up that you can't actually chain-gate Solars and that Titans are the better choice since they get Gate as an SLA?

Truenamers stupidly get gate with no EXP cost even for calling. So they don't need to chain gate. They can just cast gate themselves, as much as they want.

Morcleon

2013-02-11, 08:49 PM

Truenamers stupidly get gate with no EXP cost even for calling. So they don't need to chain gate. They can just cast gate themselves, as much as they want.

Yeah, but chain-gating and at-will is faster than just at-will. :smalltongue:

Thump

2013-02-11, 09:05 PM

I'm not that familiar with Binder (at least those two vestiges) and Truenamer...but ouch. Killed by a Truenamer.

Actually, Forcecage=Reflex save in Pathfinder. Reflex save +106 says bite me unless you're a tainted scholar necropolitan.

Initiative of +33 says hello, and 120ft/round * 2 = 240ft charge while flying.

Better have a good AC there, friend.

Jack_Simth

2013-02-11, 09:37 PM

Any character with high initiative and a bow and this arrow.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/s720x720/522630_10150900661888625_829178624_12894060_157796 545_n.jpg
Do note that the lightest of the Bags of holding - at least in D&D 3.5 - is 15 pounds, and is "about 2 feet by 4 feet in size". Kinda hard to build your arrow, unless it's maybe the head for a balistae bolt. You might be able to make it work with a Handy Haversack, but you're still looking at a fair number of pounds and a really big head on your "arrow". Oh yes, and you'll need a suitable bow to keep it from landing head-first at your feet....

The Shadowmind

2013-02-11, 09:46 PM

Actually, Forcecage=Reflex save in Pathfinder. Reflex save +106 says bite me unless you're a tainted scholar necropolitan.

Initiative of +33 says hello, and 120ft/round * 2 = 240ft charge while flying.

Better have a good AC there, friend.

He wins initiative: +10 from Binder 20, Pact Augmentation +4 more from lvl 28 Binder. The Bronze God now doubles this to +28.
Then we add Int and Dex to the from Factotum, which so that is another +10~+15. No spells/powers/etc have been used yet.

He is also faster than you. 150ft fly speed(perfect) before add any other buffs from "Tkhaluuljin". Then the no save slow/haste Utterance. The Ward of Peace Utternace can give him time to get into position and prevents all direct attack for 5 rounds(a superior version of Sanctuary, if shorter duration, no save)
He could also Forcecage himself, and use it as a shield. Or could just knock you out of the sky with utterance Greater Seek the Sky reverse(no save). Or ready an action for the charge then summon the Sphere on in front of himself.

Adding in Amun-her Khepeshef "Desecrated Scion" for Delay Death, and Mass heal means with the mass of immunities gained from the Binder class then the vestiges, killing him is difficult.

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-11, 09:59 PM

Ok, I honestly have no clue who these vestiges being mentioned are and I don't remember them being in Tome of Magic. Can someone enlighten me?

The Shadowmind

2013-02-11, 10:08 PM

Ok, I honestly have no clue who these vestiges being mentioned are and I don't remember them being in Tome of Magic. Can someone enlighten me?

There are the epic vestiges that were posted on a wizard articles that got removed during the 4th edition purge.

A copy of the page has been saved on this site: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9589080&postcount=6

Tanuki Tales

2013-02-11, 10:20 PM

There are the epic vestiges that were posted on a wizard articles that got removed during the 4th edition purge.

A copy of the page has been saved on this site: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9589080&postcount=6

Ah, thanks.

Thump

2013-02-11, 10:59 PM

He wins initiative: +10 from Binder 20, Pact Augmentation +4 more from lvl 28 Binder. The Bronze God now doubles this to +28.
Then we add Int and Dex to the from Factotum, which so that is another +10~+15. No spells/powers/etc have been used yet.

He is also faster than you. 150ft fly speed(perfect) before add any other buffs from "Tkhaluuljin". Then the no save slow/haste Utterance. The Ward of Peace Utternace can give him time to get into position and prevents all direct attack for 5 rounds(a superior version of Sanctuary, if shorter duration, no save)
He could also Forcecage himself, and use it as a shield. Or could just knock you out of the sky with utterance Greater Seek the Sky reverse(no save). Or ready an action for the charge then summon the Sphere on in front of himself.

Adding in Amun-her Khepeshef "Desecrated Scion" for Delay Death, and Mass heal means with the mass of immunities gained from the Binder class then the vestiges, killing him is difficult.

Ring of Sequestering for moving undetected (says no to true seeing), wait for any of your buffs to expire. All she has to do is hit you with at least two attacks and your strongest Truenamer/Factotum class abilities poof. Failing that, she stays like that and waits for you to sleep. She also has the advantage of being able to scry on you; You can't scry on her due to will saves being arbitrarily high.

180ft fly speed, also. Forgot to add that in.

@One final thing; If she hits you (and she will), she makes an Intimidate check. If she passes (unless she needs triple-digits, she will), yer cowered for a round.

Also still have 1m left of WBL.

Jyton

2013-02-12, 12:22 AM

Traps.

Almost everyone seems to ignore/underestimate the usefulness of traps.

We need a trap that Riruka can't get out of, that does 1,200 damage.

From the SRD

{table=head] Trap CR | Base Craft (Traps) DC

1-5|20

6-10|25

11-15 | 30

16+ | 35[/table]

So for crafting purposes we can ignore the Trap's CR, since we know the craft DC will be 35. That's easy.

We're going to use a Never Miss, Mechanical trap.

Now,

{table=head] Miscellaneous Features | Trap CR Modifier

Never miss |
+2[/table]

And;

{table=head] Damage | CR Modifier

Average Damage | +1 per 10 points of average damage If designed to hit more than one [br]target, multiply this value by 2.[/table]

And;

{table=head] Perception DC|CR Modifer
15|–1
16–20|—
21–25|+1
26–29|+2
30 [b]or higher|+3[/table]

So our never miss, undetectable, 1,200 damage trap (note that a trap that always does 1,200 damage has an average damage of 1,200, and you don't have to use dice when you're choosing how much damage the trap you're building deals,) is going to cost 125,000 gold ([1200/10 + 3 + 2]for a CR of 125, which is then multiplied by 1,000). It'll take almost two and a half years to build, but that doesn't matter since our target is undead anyway. This nets you a garbage smasher with no off switch, all perfectly RAW.

If we wished, we could decide that this trap of ours has no reset, in which case it would cost a mere 62,500 gold and be done in 63 weeks, a little more than a year.

Addendum: If you're not a fan of the "never miss" approach, you could instead substitute a reflex save of, say, 10,000 for a +3 CR Modifier.

The Shadowmind

2013-02-12, 12:36 AM

Ring of Sequestering for moving undetected (says no to true seeing), wait for any of your buffs to expire. All she has to do is hit you with at least two attacks and your strongest Truenamer/Factotum class abilities poof. Failing that, she stays like that and waits for you to sleep. She also has the advantage of being able to scry on you; You can't scry on her due to will saves being arbitrarily high.

180ft fly speed, also. Forgot to add that in.

@One final thing; If she hits you (and she will), she makes an Intimidate check. If she passes (unless she needs triple-digits, she will), yer cowered for a round.

Also still have 1m left of WBL.
I'll make him a warforged then so no sleeping.
He could also have a ring of sequester as well, and the universal energy immunity ring.
Immunities:Fear, Mind-effecting, energy-drain, negative levels, fatigue, exhaustion, ability damage and drain, energy drain, death spells, magical death effects, and negative energy effects. Mind-blank(so blocks scrying)
Selective:Immune to special attacks and abilities of undead that cause fear, disease, paralysis, or poison.
Do you have darkstalker or a way to block blindsight, tremorsense?

Spuddles

2013-02-12, 01:11 AM

Starmantle Cloak, BoED. DC15 reflex save to take half damage from a weapon attack. Combine with evasion for total immunity to chumps with sticks.

If you wanted to use spells instead of items, go with the 7th level spell that has the same effect the cloak is based on. There's also iron guard. Immunity to non metal weapons. It's not DR, so transmuting weapons do nothing.

Repel Wood/Repel Metal & Stone offer no save prevention of bringing any such item near, though it would take a little bit of manipulation to set the spells up.

You also have no protection from disjunction or greater dispel magic, and the caster level on your items is rather low. It would be quite easy to turn them off, which means you lose energy immunity. Then just hit you with a persisted ocular creeping cold (energy sub to acid). You take a cumulative 1d6 damage a round for 24 hours. Fort save for half. Do you have mettle?

Would this work?
Binder 30//Factotum 11/Truenamer 19.
Grab a Legacy weapon with the Cunning Property.
Have The Bronze God and the Cephalopocalypse bound as the epic vestiges.
Teneberous for the flicker. Use the Bronze God for Quickened Forcecage, then Cephalopocalype for a Sphere of Annihilation him in the cage, end.
The Truenamer is for spell rebirth, fast healing, and bits here and there.

You are gonna wanna use the sphere before the forcecage because forcecage breaks LoE.

Thump

2013-02-12, 01:28 AM

Starmantle Cloak, BoED. DC15 reflex save to take half damage from a weapon attack. Combine with evasion for total immunity to chumps with sticks.

If you wanted to use spells instead of items, go with the 7th level spell that has the same effect the cloak is based on. There's also iron guard. Immunity to non metal weapons. It's not DR, so transmuting weapons do nothing.

Repel Wood/Repel Metal & Stone offer no save prevention of bringing any such item near, though it would take a little bit of manipulation to set the spells up.

You also have no protection from disjunction or greater dispel magic, and the caster level on your items is rather low. It would be quite easy to turn them off, which means you lose energy immunity. Then just hit you with a persisted ocular creeping cold (energy sub to acid). You take a cumulative 1d6 damage a round for 24 hours. Fort save for half. Do you have mettle?

You are gonna wanna use the sphere before the forcecage because forcecage breaks LoE.

Undead are immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save.

Morcleon

2013-02-12, 01:30 AM

Undead are immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save.

Tack on the Irresistible metamagic feat. It no longer allows a save. :smallwink:

Thump

2013-02-12, 01:38 AM

Tack on the Irresistible metamagic feat. It no longer allows a save. :smallwink:

And WHAT level spell is it going to turn out to be?

Creeping Cold is either 2nd or 3rd, Persisted is +5, Ocular is +4 (I think don't quote me on this), and Irresistible was either 5 or 7... can't bloody remember.

Morcleon

2013-02-12, 01:40 AM

And WHAT level spell is it going to turn out to be?

Creeping Cold is either 2nd or 3rd, Persisted is +5, Ocular is +4 (I think don't quote me on this), and Irresistible was either 5 or 7... can't bloody remember.

Creeping Cold is 2nd, Persist is +6, Ocular is +2, Irresistible is +4. Using DMM Persist, and Practical/Easy Metamagic for Irresistible, it ends up a 7th level. :smallbiggrin:

Thump

2013-02-12, 01:47 AM

Creeping Cold is 2nd, Persist is +6, Ocular is +2, Irresistible is +4. Using DMM Persist, and Practical/Easy Metamagic for Irresistible, it ends up a 7th level. :smallbiggrin:

F*** DMM...

It looks like that for someone to kill her, they have to know who she is, what she can do, and how to exploit weaknesses.

Sounds like the Playgrounders to me. :smallamused:

Anyone who doesn't know what she is, though... on a scale of 1 to 10, how screwed would they be?

Morcleon

2013-02-12, 01:52 AM

F*** DMM...

It looks like that for someone to kill her, they have to know who she is, what she can do, and how to exploit weaknesses.

Sounds like the Playgrounders to me. :smallamused:

Yep! :smallwink:

Anyone who doesn't know what she is, though... on a scale of 1 to 10, how screwed would they be?

Assuming low-medium optimization, they're pretty much dead unless they can run away. With higher levels of optimization, it gets progressively easier to just throw stuff at her until she dies. I've got multiple epic characters (some not even gestalt) that could take her out with some effort.

Carth

2013-02-12, 01:55 AM

F*** DMM...

It looks like that for someone to kill her, they have to know who she is, what she can do, and how to exploit weaknesses.

Sounds like the Playgrounders to me. :smallamused:

Anyone who doesn't know what she is, though... on a scale of 1 to 10, how screwed would they be?

Any character using the burial tactic I first described would probably open with it regardless of who they were facing, as it's likely to work against 99% of foes. WotC greatly underestimated undermaster's ability to turn move earth into a standard action, thus allowing millions of cubic feet of earth to be moved as a standard action.

tyckspoon

2013-02-12, 01:56 AM

F*** DMM...

It looks like that for someone to kill her, they have to know who she is, what she can do, and how to exploit weaknesses.

Sounds like the Playgrounders to me. :smallamused:

Anyone who doesn't know what she is, though... on a scale of 1 to 10, how screwed would they be?

Well, if you're using the utterly broken version of Irresistible Spell, there's *lots* of ways to at least disable her (it was errata'd later on to merely make it a tougher save DC, but you're talking about obscure errata for a source that is mostly notable only for the one thing anyway). Just go back through the thread and look at any post that says 'this would work if you can find a way through the saves' and apply Irresistible to it.

Spuddles

2013-02-12, 04:00 AM

And WHAT level spell is it going to turn out to be?

Creeping Cold is either 2nd or 3rd, Persisted is +5, Ocular is +4 (I think don't quote me on this), and Irresistible was either 5 or 7... can't bloody remember.

Good catch on the fort save. It's rather strange how much being undead makes you immune to, like being encased in acid for 24 hours. I supposed undead sorcerer bloodline and an extended persisted irrisistable dance. Every day. Forever.

There are at least a dozen methods of mitigating metamagic adjustment. And since this is epic, you could just take epic spell capacity for higher level slots.

It should be noted that ocular spell requires a wish or surge of fortune to reliably land.

F*** DMM...

It looks like that for someone to kill her, they have to know who she is, what she can do, and how to exploit weaknesses.

Sounds like the Playgrounders to me. :smallamused:

Anyone who doesn't know what she is, though... on a scale of 1 to 10, how screwed would they be?

It really depends on the degree of optimization and what the antagonists are going to be. If they're vanilla beasties like proteans and abominations, then many fights will either be stalemates, or take forever to resolve, as you both ineffectually tickle each others' hundreds of hit points.

A high level caster that gets irritated with her shenanigans can just contact other planes/knowledge religion & nature check to realize she's evolved undead stacking charisma on nymph & paladin/manifest hyperconciousness.

Basically, as a level 30 spellcaster, you are used to running into stuff with sr: all, ac: untouchable, and saves: never gonna give you up. You've been dealing with that stuff since level 15; maybe level 1 if you made the mistake of bringing a bard to the tome off horrors.

Against virtually anything with as much optimization put into spells as you put into charisma, at your level, there's no reason they should even be remotely at risk. As soon as they realize your only offense is a lot of swings and your defense is having ac & saves about 20 levels higher than what it should be, your opponents just leave. Maybe they come back, maybe they don't. But notice that all my builds either involve things that are petty cash to an ecl 30 creature or involve feats that can easily be shuffled/psy reformed around. Specific tactics can bring your character down, not specific builds.

All said, though, I don't think anything that wants to use melee on you is going to have much luck. Mundanes are hosed by you having way too much ac, hp, and saves. Interestingly, con stacking gets you similar results- unbeatable ac.

As an aside, a few years ago I was playing with a similar charisma build, ecl 20, no gestalt, but used gloura instead of nymph. Lower ecl and qualified me for sublime chord. It's a solid defensive trick, but it precludes a lot of offense and still leaves you open to some really nasty stuff.

Suddo

2013-02-12, 12:59 PM

Thump

2013-02-12, 01:35 PM

Are we allowed flaws because I'd like to win without spell casting (or at least without it being the focus of the build).

Edit: Just as suggestions to your build. Get mettle. this can easily be done with a 1 level dip in Pious Templar (Complete Divine). I forget where it is but Tabard of Valor gives you mettle (or improved mettle) when at 50% HP. Evasion or Evasion like effects are often useful to.
And where are you getting Pounce from... Is that 1 Whirling Frenzy Pounce Barbarian at the end of your build. And if that's the case we can use ACF from 3.5 even if the abilities are completely different?
Oh and I assume 2 Pathfinder traits are allowed.
You're CMD is: 62? (10+30+16+6) Somethings you have a bonus to.
Oh and I see we are not using the suggested rules for Epic BAB (I'll assume saves too)
I also assume Dvati and leadership are out.
Flaws: No.

Epic BAB and such: Pathfinder with 3.5 content allowed.

Dragon Magazine stuff isn't allowed unless said content is easily accessible otherwise.

I didn't use traits on this, and yes, ACF from 3.5 is allowed. As for Mettle, it's largely unneeded, since anything that needs a Fort save has no effect on her, and most Will-save provoking abilities are also as such due to immunity to mind-affecting effects.

So it looks like Riruka is doing what is intended so far in terms of with enemies and such. Spellcasters will have to encounter her first hand to figure out her base abilities before researching it more... something they may or may not survive, depending on what their course of actions are. Melee enemies are basically done, and such.

I didn't take Gloura instead of Nymph, simply for the flavour. I don't like the butterfly wings and weird looks. Also, 7th level druid casting > 7th or 9th level bard casting.

Suddo

2013-02-12, 01:37 PM

Flaws: No.

Epic BAB and such: Pathfinder with 3.5 content allowed.

Dragon Magazine stuff isn't allowed unless said content is easily accessible otherwise.

Okay so out the window with most easy forms of power builds. I'll be back in a day or so hopefully (I'm at work at the moment).

Carth

2013-02-12, 01:40 PM

Flaws: No.

Epic BAB and such: Pathfinder with 3.5 content allowed.

Dragon Magazine stuff isn't allowed unless said content is easily accessible otherwise.

I didn't use traits on this, and yes, ACF from 3.5 is allowed. As for Mettle, it's largely unneeded, since anything that needs a Fort save has no effect on her, and most Will-save provoking abilities are also as such due to immunity to mind-affecting effects.

So it looks like Riruka is doing what is intended so far in terms of with enemies and such. Spellcasters will have to encounter her first hand to figure out her base abilities before researching it more... something they may or may not survive, depending on what their course of actions are. Melee enemies are basically done, and such.

I didn't take Gloura instead of Nymph, simply for the flavour. I don't like the butterfly wings and weird looks. Also, 7th level druid casting > 7th or 9th level bard casting.

Would you be immune to the damage from maw of chaos? I'm pretty sure it'd be trivial to come up with a character that could do 1200 damage with maw of chaos at level 30, a strategy that would also work against 99% of enemies (IE, not a strategy specific to you, as with burial).