Battlefields

[willpell]

Whenever I run a combat-time encounter for my 3.5 PBP game, I invariably get hung up on the issue of terrain, which seems to be of paramount importance in D&D rules but is almost impossible to deal with easily on a message board. When it's vitally important to know where everything is, how do you keep track? And more importantly, how do you design an interesting battlefield in the first place?

Case in point - in my current scenario, the PC is accompanying a platoon of NPC police on a manhunt in the woods. They've just come within 100 yards of the killer (a Bugbear with levels in Fighter-Feats Rogue), and heard a twig snap. So now I have a battlefield 100 yards wide, and 10 NPCs (the Bugbear, eight Fighters and a higher-level Marshal commanding them), and I need a way of figuring out how much space there is between the trees on average, and dotting the area with configurations of trees and rough ground which have the potential to be tactically interesting. Because without all that detail, this would be an absurdly boring fight; the whole point of it is that the Bugbear, who's used to thinking he's invincible because he's never fought a mage, will cut and run after he takes one or two blasts from my PC. (He then lures the PC into the real fight, when I'll have to come up with another, different and much more important, battlefield of the same approximate size and sort.)

[ArcturusV]

This is a problem I've had myself recently. Running a campaign on Skype, and just... so much of DnD is spatial that I never really realized how bad it was until I suddenly realized I couldn't just roll out my laminated grid and mark it up as needed on the fly.

I know people suggested Maptools to me. I've looked at it, I've tried it. The problem I had with it is that so much prep work has to be done (And I'm slow enough with the program), that I'd have to spend about 12 hours just mapping out a 4 hour session. At best. And it'd be terribly rail roaded because the only locations I'd have mapped out are the ones I planned on using, kinda forcing me to tell players, "Umm... nope. you're going that way."

And my experience playing Maptools campaigns say that's generally how it goes.

So what do I do? I almost didn't run a campaign because I honestly couldn't figure out something to do for it. It more or less depends on how much time I have to put into a session, and how ambitious I am, and if players stick to the path I hope they'll choose (Ha, fat chance of that happening!).

If I know they'll stick to the path, AND I have time to do it? I'll just go rip off a grid image from the Web. Put it up in paint, paint my terrain and features on the grid (Poorly, I am by no means a Computer Artist, something about using a mouse to draw just always makes everything come out terrible for me), and let them get the gist of terrain. Just label the Columns and Rows. When people's turns come up I can just go:

Oti: You're in A6, the Goliath Longspear is in B7, Goliath Axecrusher in C7, and Goliath Brawler in A9.

Now if they don't give me enough time, go off the path, I don't have time in the day (As they expect me to run a session almost every night. Damn you Interwebs convenience!)... I just break out my handy, dandy engineer's pad. Same sort of paper I've been using since I started DnDing decades ago to design dungeons. I'll take about 5 minutes to sketch out the location on the grid, put in logical features. Then just hope my descriptive powers and my player's imaginations are up to the task as I keep track of everyone on my pad.

Oti: There's a rope bridge 30 feet dead ahead of you, spanning a ravine 60 feet wide with a small creek at the bottom, 70 feet from the bridge. The rope bridge is just wide enough that one person can cross it at a time, though it's not well made and will slow you down. Across the bridge, 100 feet away is a Goblin Sharpshooter who is stringing up his bow in a hurry and shouting like crazy in his foul language.

It's worked... okay... so far. There's usually some clarifications like "How many enemies can I catch in one Fireball ideally placed" for example. But we get along and I've never had a player tell me that they didn't know where someone was or "I didn't know I was right up next to the cliff edge!" or something.

[avr]

If you can collect a whole bunch of premade maps and pictures there's at least a chance you'll have something appropriate when some random situation comes up. I haven't had to try to integrate such into maptools or something similar for a PbP tho' so I don't know how hard that step is.

[willpell]

The map coordinates are definitely a good idea. I've a program I can use to build very crude maps for my own use, and then I can name squares for the players' benefit. This will probably have to suffice.

More tips will be gladly appreciated. Is there a good way of scattering terrain hazards about in a way that seems natural (ie not geometrically regular but not completely random either)? About how big and far apart are trees in an average forest anyway?

[ArcturusV]

Kinda depends on climate, tree breeds, age of the forest, if it was cultivated or wild, etc. But generally the spacing is pretty far apart. In an old growth forest you can easily end up with 50 feet between trees... though you'll have a LOT of ferns covering the ground and other ground cover.

[Ashtagon]

I wonder if anyone has ever taken the random map generation rules in the SRD and used that to seed data for a random map generator?

[Techwarrior]

About how big and far apart are trees in an average forest anyway?

Depends on the forest and how deep in it you are. In my area theres three different major groupings of trees. One of them had trees that are about 1 1/2 to 2 feet on diameter, and they're spaced about three feet apart generally. One has trees that are 4-6 feet in diameter, but are generally about 8-12 feet apart. The last one is really a bog, but has a mix of both the above numbers.

Generally trees seen to want about twice as much 'space' as they are in diameter. We typically call it difficult terrain, with cover that can be accessed from any square.

[willpell]

Generally trees seen to want about twice as much 'space' as they are in diameter. We typically call it difficult terrain, with cover that can be accessed from any square.

There's an interesting thought; would never have occurred to me. But I've previously made the assumption that the trees in this forest are generally about square-sized, and it sounds like that's consistent with reality in at least some cases. The difficult terrain approach is probably better for a thinner forest of birches and saplings and such (I'm sure there are other species of tree which are naturally thin and light, but for the life of me birch is the only one I can think of; oaks and maples and elms and other such varieties common in my area are nearly always going to be at least 5 feet across unless they're young).

[ArcturusV]

Alder trees for that one you're having trouble of thinking of. Least around here, it's the common tree for a "young" forest. And Young Forests are much thicker.

Of course a forest set up by Druid Local 315 is probably also going to look a lot different. Probably like some orderly English garden of symmetry and homogeneity, or more like an Elf Forest if they're feeling fancy. If you ever read a fantasy novel, and you look at the description of an "elf forest" that isn't cursed, under bad stewardship, being infested by Gobbos, etc... they are the most unnatural impossible things that could only exist because some elf wizards must devote a ton of time into sculpting it. So never draw inspiration from that unless you want something "unnatural".

[willpell]

I would go for that sort of thing only if the local druids were Lawful (and Elves usually aren't, though I am cool with them having a slightly "off" opinion of what nature should be, as opposed to what it is - the Disney version of Nature as it were, but not to the point of being perfectly symmetrical, that would be too artless).

Alders are young? That's amusing.

[NichG]

At one point I thought about making something like a pack of 20 'complex battlefields', which'd be simple schematic maps in which there are various terrain elements that have associated mechanics. I still think its a good idea but I never finished the project. Conceivably these are things one could just plug into maptool with nearly zero effort given the pregenerated files, so it'd be a useful resource there too.

Some examples:

A canyon map:

http://gildedflask.wikispaces.com/file/view/canyon9.png/


A forest treetops map:

http://gildedflask.wikispaces.com/file/view/forest_treetops.png/


A desert map:

http://gildedflask.wikispaces.com/file/view/painted_desert.png/

[willpell]

While such contributions are appreciated, they and the pre-existing maps in books always make me feel kind of bleah, like I imagine busting them out at the table and all the players going "oh yeah I remember this map, let's all funnel the minions over to this choke point and then isolate the BBEG in that cul-de-sac over there", despite supposedly having never seen this location before. What I really wish existed was a set of combinable elements, like a table you roll twice or thrice on, which will spit out 400 or 8000 possible maps, so you'll never have the same one twice.

[Slipperychicken]

Check out Roll20, or similar services. It's free and lets everyone interact with completely customizable maps (it's shared, kind of like a google doc. Obviously, only the DM gets to create the map itself. Players can move their minis around if they wish) complete with tokens, terrain features, and numerous tools to create maps and roll dice. Get everyone into that, and boom. Problem solved. It even has fog of war, so players only see what you want them to see.

[willpell]

Check out Roll20, or similar services. It's free and lets everyone interact with completely customizable maps (it's shared, kind of like a google doc. Obviously, only the DM gets to create the map itself. Players can move their minis around if they wish) complete with tokens, terrain features, and numerous tools to create maps and roll dice. Get everyone into that, and boom. Problem solved. It even has fog of war, so players only see what you want them to see.

That sounds perfect, got a link?

[Slipperychicken]

That sounds perfect, got a link?

Here ya go. (http://roll20.net/)

[Amphetryon]

While such contributions are appreciated, they and the pre-existing maps in books always make me feel kind of bleah, like I imagine busting them out at the table and all the players going "oh yeah I remember this map, let's all funnel the minions over to this choke point and then isolate the BBEG in that cul-de-sac over there", despite supposedly having never seen this location before. What I really wish existed was a set of combinable elements, like a table you roll twice or thrice on, which will spit out 400 or 8000 possible maps, so you'll never have the same one twice.

Tactically savvy Players can often make sound snap decisions like that, without the preface of "Oh, yeah, I remember this map." In what way would it be better for you (if at all) if they Players made the same sound judgments about how to utilize the terrain if they didn't indicate foreknowledge of the map?

For that matter, if a Character has invested in Knowledge (Geography) or Knowledge (Local) - depending on the nature of the map - "Oh, yeah, I remember this map" isn't necessarily a comment that's out of place for the Character to make, let alone the Player.

[Slipperychicken]

For that matter, if a Character has invested in Knowledge (Geography) or Knowledge (Local) - depending on the nature of the map - "Oh, yeah, I remember this map" isn't necessarily a comment that's out of place for the Character to make, let alone the Player.

Maybe a very high check (DC 45-50?) would allow a PC to intuit geographical features of a place he's never been to before. A similar DC in Know (Architecture and Engineering) or Know (Dungeoneering) could work for man-made structures.