Cleric question

[DarkEternal]

Alright, so one of my players is playing a cleric. I know he can make broken and strong characters, but I'm willing to give him a benefit of a doubt here. He made a Church Inquisitor-Cleric, and will go into Divine Disciple(I think that's the name of the class) and Contemplative later on.

I know he won't go into Divine Metamagic, so I'm looking at what he is doing with his other stuff. I know he said he wanted to be a good support character as well, so at the moment(level 6), he's got two tactical feats. One is Mitigating suffering(basically can use restoration at will or something like that), and a Touch of healing(can always bring the partys health up to 50 percent). This doesn't sound too bad, but maybe I'm missing something? He also asked if he can use the rules for Turning undead from Pathfinder, and honestly I'm not able to see it as being much better or worse than the rules from the PHB, so I kind of allowed it for now.

Also, a question: Do divine casters(cleric, archivist) have to pay for spells that have "arcane" components? In this case, Identify. Do they identify things for free because it clearly says that it has arcane components that are worth 100 gold, but no divine components? To me, it makes sense that they have to pay it, but he(and the archivist of the party) argue they don't need to do it since it doesn't speak anything about divine focuses or components.

Also, in the terms of the church inquisitor special ability. At level 3(I think) he gets the ability to be given the chance to disbelieve any illusion when he comes in contact with it. Does this work on Invisibility spells as well? They are glamers, which are basically illusions? And to what level? Superior Invisibility for instance speaks they can't be seen by anything less but True Sight, but does this work in this scenario?

[Mnemnosyne]

Some spells use an arcane material component. This is specified as an arcane material component, meaning anyone casting it as a divine spell does not use the material component, they instead use their divine focus. They tend to say M/DF in the components descriptor, indicating the spell has either a material or a divine focus component. So yes, when casting identify, a divine caster does not need to use a material component.

Other spells have material components even for divine casters, such as Glyph of Warding, which just says M, and its material component is simply listed as 'material component' instead of arcane material component.

Invisibility doesn't offer a will disbelief saving throw. The illusion ability only applies to illusions that do offer such a saving throw, unless it explicitly says it adds a saving throw to spells which would not otherwise offer one, and this ability doesn't.

[HunterOfJello]

Divine spells do not have any arcane material components. If a spell can be cast as both a divine or arcane spell, then the requirements for casting it are then based on what type of spellcaster is casting the spell. Clerics who cast identify (if they have the Magic domain or are a Cloistered Cleric) do not have to pay the arcane material components for the spell since the spell they are casting is not arcane.

[DarkEternal]

Alright. And does the archivist function in the same way, considering he casts like a wizard...but casts divine spells?

[DarkEternal]

Also, now that I read the Inquisitor class feature it doesn't say he disbelieves an illusion, it says:

At 3rd level, the church inquisitor gains the supernatural ability to penetrate illusions and disguises at will. Whenever an inquisitor sees an illusion or disguise spell of any sort, he immediately makes a Will save to see through it. The inquisitor need not interact with or touch the illusion, visual contact is enough to give the Will save.

Meaning, he does not disbelieve it, he sees through whatever the illusion is. So, this can still be argued about ad infinitum if it works against invisibility spells or not.

[LTwerewolf]

Archivists are still casting the spells as divine, so no component.

Also, it only works on illusions and such that even allow a save. No save, no see-through.

[lunchbox201]

man i play a lot of clerics (about 90% of the time) and the groups i have played in have always played with the belief that divine spells are bestowed by the god/belief system and not through the manipulation of nature (i.e. material components destroyed in casting) like their magical counterparts.

I have never liked this particular prestige class as a playable character but they do make great hooks for DMs to guide PCs with and they make for great role playing when played well.

As for Invisibility and the inquisitors it states:
Pierce Illusion (Su): At 3rd level, the church
inquisitor gains the supernatural ability to penetrate
illusions and disguises at will. The inquisitor must
touch an illusion or a creature shrouded in illusion
(such as a change self spell).

The Pc has to touch the illusioned person/object and with the invisibility spell this doesnt count as an attack but if you touch the person i would think you would know where that person is at least for the moment possibly a good opportunity for a grapple attack which would break the invisibility i believe and thus no need for this class feature

[LanSlyde]

man i play a lot of clerics (about 90% of the time) and the groups i have played in have always played with the belief that divine spells are bestowed by the god/belief system and not through the manipulation of nature (i.e. material components destroyed in casting) like their magical counterparts.

I have never liked this particular prestige class as a playable character but they do make great hooks for DMs to guide PCs with and they make for great role playing when played well.

As for Invisibility and the inquisitors it states:
Pierce Illusion (Su): At 3rd level, the church
inquisitor gains the supernatural ability to penetrate
illusions and disguises at will. The inquisitor must
touch an illusion or a creature shrouded in illusion
(such as a change self spell).

The Pc has to touch the illusioned person/object and with the invisibility spell this doesnt count as an attack but if you touch the person i would think you would know where that person is at least for the moment possibly a good opportunity for a grapple attack which would break the invisibility i believe and thus no need for this class feature

Your are incorrect. The ability says he merely needs to observe (see) the illusion/disguise effect. He does not have to touch it.

This also clears up the matter of Pierce Illusion vs invisibility, as their is nothing to observe. Therefore it does not give him the ability to miraculously break someones invisibility just by looking in his general direction.

[DarkEternal]

Since the player is getting in an extremely bitchy mode about this that it ruins his character and that the fluff states blah-blah, I'll think I will let it slide just to end unecessary drama since I really, really hate drama queens.

[LTwerewolf]

I wouldn't if I were you I really wouldn't. Temper tantrums should not be the currency to get what they want. Sometimes one class can't do everything. There's a higher level (5th) spell that solves the issue anyhow.

[LanSlyde]

I wouldn't if I were you I really wouldn't. Temper tantrums should not be the currency to get what they want. Sometimes one class can't do everything. There's a higher level (5th) spell that solves the issue anyhow.

What this guy said. He's a cleric, by default he has exactly 0 reasons to get bitchy. He should be happy with just breaking through that illusory wall by 'looking' at it.

[lunchbox201]

Your are incorrect. The ability says he merely needs to observe (see) the illusion/disguise effect. He does not have to touch it.

This also clears up the matter of Pierce Illusion vs invisibility, as their is nothing to observe. Therefore it does not give him the ability to miraculously break someones invisibility just by looking in his general direction.

wrong is a matter of perspective here the same ability has two completely different mechanics taken from two separate books. I believe the way it is written in the complete divine was adjusted for PCs who whined about just this sort of thing because the original text makes it harder to detect such illusions with out the interaction. the text is not consistent in its game mechanic and it is a tertiary rule that has been dumbed down and changed so PCs are less challenged in their character. I know from personal experience that every player wants to create the strongest character possible for every adventure but all classes have their strengths and drawbacks. Sometimes as a GM you have to tell players to suck it up and play their PC by one rule or the another and make the hard choice for them. with that being said i believe that if a player can make a strong enough argument for one rule over another they should be allowed to play by it, but it has to be a strong argument in this case i would take the rule out of the defenders of the faith over the complete divine because it makes the PC work for the reward instead of just handing it to them. which in my opinion is why we as GMs do what we do, set forth the challenge and let the PCs overcome them.

taken from the complete divine handbook page 27:

Pierce Illusion (Su): At 3rd level,
the church inquisitor gains the supernatural
ability to penetrate illusions
and disguises at will. Whenever an
inquisitor sees an illusion or disguise
spell of any sort, he immediately
makes a Will save to see through
it. The inquisitor need not interact
with or touch the illusion, visual
contact is enough to give the Will
save.

taken from defenders of the faith page 52:

Pierce Illusion (Su): At 3rd level, the church
inquisitor gains the supernatural ability to penetrate
illusions and disguises at will. The inquisitor must
touch an illusion or a creature shrouded in illusion
(such as a change self spell). The inquisitor then makes a
caster level check as if casting dispel magic against the
illusion effect. If he succeeds at this check, the illusion
is immediately dispelled. The church inquisitor’s +4
bonus on dispel checks (the Inquisition domain
granted power) applies to this check as well. In addition,
the inquisitor has a +4 competence bonus on
Spot checks against the Disguise skill.