Bro, you're bleeding... (Heal Skill Fix)

[LordErebus12]

Heal skill is broken... almost useless. Time to fix it (to the player's dismay)

For those with half health or lower (bloodied), begin losing one hit point each round, until you receive a successful heal check to stop all that bleeding.

If you attempt to perform a full round action, or a movement and standard action, you instead lose 1 hit point per level.

(you're gonna bleed out faster)

Special: perhaps those in a rage do not begin suffering hp lose until they reach the end of the rage.

[LordErebus12]

im thinking this should apply to all creatures with a con score...

[Deviston]

This is relevent to my interests.

I think that's a wonderful fix. Makes the skill needed (which it never has been). I also propose my fix for magical healing that is instituted in my DM's campaigns.

When you are above 50% hp, magical healing works normal. When you are below that mark, every 3 points of healing only restores 1 hit point. When you are below 25% the ratio is 5 to 1. This represents healing magics having to work harder to heal more grevious wounds. Thought that might be something you would be interested in and was on topic.

[Rakoa]

This is interesting. It isn't as much a Heal fix as it is a combat alteration which makes Heal more necessary. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[LordErebus12]

its enough so that hiring two or three healers for each adventure might be a large boon.

[LordErebus12]

When you are above 50% hp, magical healing works normal. When you are below that mark, every 3 points of healing only restores 1 hit point. When you are below 25% the ratio is 5 to 1. This represents healing magics having to work harder to heal more grevious wounds. Thought that might be something you would be interested in and was on topic.

hmm, might be too much, though...

[Deviston]

The function of it is to encourage healing in combat. If you can kill the enemy but get down to let's say 30%, you are now expending more resources to heal up. However, if you're party healer (or whatever) heals a little earlier, the fights lasts a few rounds longer possibly making it more interesting and lethal for other members.

It also makes them WANT to heal after a fight, get the good ratio in just in case. This means more per days expended and the next fight (if it even comes at all) a little more dangerous (fewer per days left).

It also makes a fight much more lethal than "oh im at 7 hp, whatevs, cleric get over here and patch this up chop chop". You could even say "with a successful heal check, the ratio for healing below 50% is 2:1 for the next healing spell; 4:1 below 25%. For every 20 points you beat the dc, the ratio improves" or something like that, to once again make heal more useful.

[LordErebus12]

The function of it is to encourage healing in combat. If you can kill the enemy but get down to let's say 30%, you are now expending more resources to heal up. However, if you're party healer (or whatever) heals a little earlier, the fights lasts a few rounds longer possibly making it more interesting and lethal for other members.

It also makes them WANT to heal after a fight, get the good ratio in just in case. This means more per days expended and the next fight (if it even comes at all) a little more dangerous (fewer per days left).

It also makes a fight much more lethal than "oh im at 7 hp, whatevs, cleric get over here and patch this up chop chop". You could even say "with a successful heal check, the ratio for healing below 50% is 2:1 for the next healing spell; 4:1 below 25%. For every 20 points you beat the dc, the ratio improves" or something like that, to once again make heal more useful.

its a lot to remember, though. its almost too much to bother with, imo (though i really do like how it scales based on the wounds)

imagine the wounds on a troll's rend...

[Deviston]

Luckily you don't have to remember anything, just write it down like every other rule.

As for how it scales on the wound, takes more magical effort to mend a nearly lopped of leg than just the outer quarter inch of the whole thing. Whatever the excuse, it makes the game a lot more... difficult. Less of a walk in the park.

[LordErebus12]

agreed, lol

[Deviston]

As an after thought, I realize it puts the difficulty of the game into the PLAYER'S hands. Should the player seek difficulty, he waits to heal, should he want to ensure survival, heals sooner rather than later. I wonder how long it will take the player to notice this...

[LordErebus12]

As an after thought, I realize it puts the difficulty of the game into the PLAYER'S hands. Should the player seek difficulty, he waits to heal, should he want to ensure survival, heals sooner rather than later. I wonder how long it will take the player to notice this...

trial and rerolling character

[Grod_The_Giant]

Be warned that rules like these tend to have the most effect on the mundane melee types, AKA the archetype most disliked by the rules.

If you want to make the Heal skill more relevant, increase the amount you can do with it, rather than introducing unnecessary penalties. Let it recover more hit points. Let it remove conditions. Heck, make the skill required somehow for magical healing-- perhaps your CL with healing spells is based on your ranks in the skill. But let's not make life harder for the classes 3.5 already hates the most.

[LordErebus12]

Be warned that rules like these tend to have the most effect on the mundane melee types, AKA the archetype most disliked by the rules.

If you want to make the Heal skill more relevant, increase the amount you can do with it, rather than introducing unnecessary penalties. Let it recover more hit points. Let it remove conditions. Heck, make the skill required somehow for magical healing-- perhaps your CL with healing spells is based on your ranks in the skill. But let's not make life harder for the classes 3.5 already hates the most.

meh, melee types are meat shields, thats the whole point.

I do agree, the heal skill should be able to heal way more hit points.

[Deviston]

NOOOOOO!! Be warned! Ye be stepping into the country known as "Power Creep"! Letting it heal actual hit points is no bueno. However, setting magical healing to be tied to the Heal skill does sound nice.

I've always been a fan of "Temporary Healing" via Heal skill. Say you make a healing check of 25, old boy is temporarily healed of 10 hp. If you take no damage before you get the natural healing from sleep, those temps turn to real haled hp. Should old boy take 3 points of real damage before sleeping, they take their 3 of course, and double that (up to total temp healed points) in temp healed points aka 6.

[Grod_The_Giant]

meh, melee types are meat shields, thats the whole point.
If we accept this premise, your fix for a minor aspect of the game (one crappy skill) is causing problems for a large portion of the game (all melee types). That's suboptimal.

[LordErebus12]

If we accept this premise, your fix for a minor aspect of the game (one crappy skill) is causing problems for a large portion of the game (all melee types). That's suboptimal.

i disagree, its more realistic. (i realize the irony of what i just said)

and i agree with:

"I've always been a fan of "Temporary Healing" via Heal skill. Say you make a healing check of 25, old boy is temporarily healed of 10 hp. If you take no damage before you get the natural healing from sleep, those temps turn to real healed hp."

[Grod_The_Giant]

i disagree, its more realistic. (i realize the irony of what i just said)

And all together now, what's the biggest obstacle that mundane classes have to deal with when competing against magic uses?

It's not realistic.

[LordErebus12]

And all together now, what's the biggest obstacle that mundane classes have to deal with when competing against magic uses?

It's not realistic.

yup, its the name of the game, and you ARE mundane... them's the breaks...

now if you were a fighter with ranks in UMD, you wouldnt suck so bad. But thats a problem with the fighter, they are drastically underpowered.

[Yora]

New Feat:

Ain't got no time to bleed
Prerequisite: Con 13
Benefit: You automatically stop bleeding after 1 round.

:smallbiggrin:

[Grod_The_Giant]

yup, its the name of the game, and you ARE mundane... them's the breaks...

now if you were a fighter with ranks in UMD, you wouldnt suck so bad. But thats a problem with the fighter, they are drastically underpowered.

The idea is usually to try and make the bad parts better, not worse. But whatever floats your boat. (Also, this type of system is a problem for anyone getting hit a lot, regardless of how good or bad their class is)

[LordErebus12]

New Feat:

Ain't got no time to bleed
Prerequisite: Con 13
Benefit: You automatically stop bleeding after 1 round.

:smallbiggrin:

YES!!! SWEET! i knew all those feats came in handy for something!

[bobthe6th]

This will cause no end of TPKs among first level characters. Seriously, when is a first level character not below half HP at the end of the day? Unless you are assuming one character per party member is spending an action to fix them.

The first level fighter? Has to have some one standing behind him patching him up... or he dies. Seriously, 10+2-4 HP?

This isn't a heal skill fix. This is a combat variant that screws everyone. Healers now have to spend every action spaming Heal checks, as heal spells arn't going to be worth it in combat until heal comes along.

My suggestion? Let the heal spell heal 2xrank as a standard action once per 4 rounds, and add checks to fix other aliments. If you want resource managment to be a thing, make it require a healers kit. Make cure X wounds allow to heal without a kit, and add xd8 to the amount healed.

[Deviston]

OR! Or, and hear me out on this bob, it would cause players to play smarter rather than "ok so I'm going to... attack it". Maybe they will use defensive combat, or attempt to find an alternate means to defeat the encounter. The blade guy may be force to take up his bow/xbow/throwing ax or more. Long story short, when a sword in the gut is... well, dangerous, perhaps the player will play intelligently and learn a thing or two.

A fighter is a combat specialist, a trained warrior who can use any means nearby to ensure the extension of their life. A fighter isn't a barbarian after all.

[LordErebus12]

Im inclined to agree with Deviston on this one.

I always hated having low hp at low levels, especially if its the fighter.

Fighter Fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14682711&postcount=1)

[bobthe6th]

So what about the barbarian? Or the knight? or the Duskblade? Or the Warblade? Or the Crusader? These are getting stuck with a massive debuff if they do their job and stab nasties in the face with a sword. Yes they will take measures to mitigate hits, but they will still get hit. Unless you start making all fighters invincible, they will be down to half HP in a balanced fight unless a cleric spam heals them. So he pulls out his bow... and the oponent reaches him and stabs him anyway? Or are we talking about the exciting fights as the party kites all their oponents?
When you know the variant means that a warblade is going to exclusively use a bow to avoid getting attacked... you are doing it wrong.

Once again, this isn't a heal fix. Heal is still a bad skill, as having it means you will be spending your action more often then not stopping bleeding. So you have to just hire some experts to fix you up... mid combat. Or die screaming, more often then not. So, you are left with the choices of kite everything, or have a squad of docters following you around! That won't ruin the atmosphere of a dungeon at all!

Really, this fix ain't helping. It needs a proper fix, or to be left to rot.

[LordErebus12]

So what about the barbarian? Or the knight? or the Duskblade? Or the Warblade? Or the Crusader? These are getting stuck with a massive debuff if they do their job and stab nasties in the face with a sword. Yes they will take measures to mitigate hits, but they will still get hit. Unless you start making all fighters invincible, they will be down to half HP in a balanced fight unless a cleric spam heals them. So he pulls out his bow... and the oponent reaches him and stabs him anyway? Or are we talking about the exciting fights as the party kites all their oponents?
When you know the variant means that a warblade is going to exclusively use a bow to avoid getting attacked... you are doing it wrong.

Once again, this isn't a heal fix. Heal is still a bad skill, as having it means you will be spending your action more often then not stopping bleeding. So you have to just hire some experts to fix you up... mid combat. Or die screaming, more often then not. So, you are left with the choices of kite everything, or have a squad of docters following you around! That won't ruin the atmosphere of a dungeon at all!

Really, this fix ain't helping. It needs a proper fix, or to be left to rot.

Bob, chill, you made your point. but if you apply the rule (with Yora's feat), its only a minor obstacle, making players think smarter, avoiding more nasty enemies, unless properly supplied.

As always, this is a DM's decision to run with it, and all players should be in agreement before such a rule is added. its not for everyone, but it adds a fundamental rule to it. wounds bleed and are dangerous if left alone.

[LordErebus12]

it would help the crusader, honestly... with the furious counterstrike.

[bobthe6th]

No, it just means his already limited HP is now shrinking faster then before.

My point was this is broken... and that got shrugged off with a "they can just avoid combat!" Which, as I endeavored to point out with the quoted post, was poor reasoning.

And Yoras feat is, tautologically a feat. those tend to be limited for anything that isn't a fighter till levels high enough to shrug off the bleed damage. So now it is a feat tax. Yay?

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Hrrm.

So, the heal skill as an option for healing is pretty weak, but... it's just a skill, it's not like there aren't plenty of underpowered skills. Comparing it to magical healing is a little bit like comparing Acrobatics with a flight spell.

I'd go with a lazy fix for the healing skill itself (double whatever it does now), but also say that "Healing" is basically the same as "Knowledge: Medicine." So, it's also useful for forensics, identifying diseases, poisons, etc.

If you liked, you could go even farther- "Knowledge: Medicine" is a lot like "Knowledge:Anatomy of 90% of the Things We're Currently Stabbing". So, I could see it working for things like Knowledge Devotion, etc.

[Dienekes]

If you want to make Heal checks worth a damn, how about we stop screwing over the guys that were already weak and instead mess with the things that are already overpowered?

How about we have Heal checks that can take away conditions like Stunned, Fatigued, Dazed, Deafened, Ability Damage, and so on?

[LordErebus12]

If you want to make Heal checks worth a damn, how about we stop screwing over the guys that were already weak and instead mess with the things that are already overpowered?

How about we have Heal checks that can take away conditions like Stunned, Fatigued, Dazed, Deafened, Ability Damage, and so on?

this i like.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

How about we have Heal checks that can take away conditions like Stunned, Fatigued, Dazed, Deafened, Ability Damage, and so on?

I'll second this. Actually, I could also see Heal being used to give people a second save against a lot of ongoing effects - even mental ones. Like talking someone through a bad drug trip, except instead of a bad drug trip, it's being possessed by a demon.

...huh. Those are actually more similar than I was thinking.

[LordErebus12]

I'll second this. Actually, I could also see Heal being used to give people a second save against a lot of ongoing effects - even mental ones. Like talking someone through a bad drug trip, except instead of a bad drug trip, it's being possessed by a demon.

...huh. Those are actually more similar than I was thinking.

ability damage... physical therapy/psychiatry, anyone?

[FreakyCheeseMan]

ability damage... physical therapy/psychiatry, anyone?

Makes sense.

The only problem with this is, the system wasn't built to support it. So, there are some spell effects that it makes sense that mundane healing could fix - but there are others that are clearly magical, and only magical healing should have a chance at. The problem is, there's no clear delineation between these - so, you're either gonna have mundane heal checks used for ridiculous things ("And if I just apply a little pressure to the third joint... There! You're not a rabbit anymore!"), or we're gonna have players and DMs arguing about it nonstop.

[Dienekes]

Ehh, I don't think it's that big of a problem. There shouldn't just be a get rid of Condition check each one should be a different roll at a different difficulty. Getting rid of someones Fatigue shouldn't be as hard as getting rid of a Stun for instance.

If it bothers you so much, don't let the obviously magic conditions like Polymorph be on the list of conditions that can be Healed away.

[LordErebus12]

Ehh, I don't think it's that big of a problem. There shouldn't just be a get rid of Condition check each one should be a different roll at a different difficulty. Getting rid of someones Fatigue shouldn't be as hard as getting rid of a Stun for instance.

If it bothers you so much, don't let the obviously magic conditions like Polymorph be on the list of conditions that can be Healed away.

Ive always had this belief that the heal check is also a knowledge check, in itself.

DC 20: Medusa's blood can restore a petrified foe if mixed with powdered pine needles.

Get to it, fighter, kill that Medusa so we can cure the wizard.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Ive always had this belief that the heal check is also a knowledge check, in itself.

DC 20: Medusa's blood can restore a petrified foe if mixed with powdered pine needles.

Get to it, fighter, kill that Medusa so we can cure the wizard.

Really, I think that having it be a knowledge check makes Heal a good skill, already. Certainly better than, say, Knowledge: Nobility.

(Incidentally, I always replace Knowledge: Nobility with Knowledge: Politics. It's much more effective.)

[Deviston]

I actually still love the original idea, WITH adding the other things. Essentially making the Heal check a "Doctor" check, which is probably what it was meant to be.

And bob... your uh, fervor, is admirable but in the end there are different views. I PERSONALLY find fighters to be too strong, but then I always expect them to play intelligently.

[ScrambledBrains]

I PERSONALLY find fighters to be too strong, but then I always expect them to play intelligently.

Not to...jump to bob's defense, but how?

How can a fighter play intelligently against something which can fly, if he can't, for example? Or something that can go invisible at a moment's notice and he doesn't have Blind-Fight or any other way to counter it? Or something with DR his weapon can't penetrate? Or something which could easily beat him in a straight up fight?

Look, you can have an intelligent fighter, Roy is proof of that, but intelligence only goes so far without the class features to back it up.

[LordErebus12]

How can a fighter play intelligently against something which can fly, if he can't, for example? Or something that can go invisible at a moment's notice and he doesn't have Blind-Fight or any other way to counter it? Or something with DR his weapon can't penetrate? Or something which could easily beat him in a straight up fight?


Because it isnt his archetypal role in the party... he is a shield, that is all. yes, he can hold his own, but he's not meant for DPS, magical flight, etc.

BUT!

Thats where my variant of the fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271033) comes in... he can alter select feats on the fly to utilize all the necessary bonus that we enjoy in feats, but never seem to have at the right time. Better skill selection and extra skills helps the versatility and extra hp keeps him up.

makes the fighter like 30% better than before, without adding thousands of new abilities to clutter it up with. (plus it follows the theme in which it was meant)

also, simply taking use magical device ranks as a fighter can give you a huge edge in the magic department.

if you have trouble with fighting flying foes, yell at the wizard, its his job to prep these spells.

[Dienekes]

That means the Fighter is still only as good as the wizard he has with him. While at lower levels and optimization a Fighter can be fine, but eventually if played intelligently the enemies can just pass right past him. Now if this has never happened in your group, that is awesome. You're not playing at the optimization level as others here, which is just fine, and don't let anyone say it isn't. But, if you ever go see the power levels at play in a moderately optimized high level Druid, Cleric, or Wizard, or some of the more magically oriented high level monsters, you'll see that the Fighter, even with a bunch of added HP just can't compete.

[LordErebus12]

That means the Fighter is still only as good as the wizard he has with him. While at lower levels and optimization a Fighter can be fine, but eventually if played intelligently the enemies can just pass right past him. Now if this has never happened in your group, that is awesome. You're not playing at the optimization level as others here, which is just fine, and don't let anyone say it isn't. But, if you ever go see the power levels at play in a moderately optimized high level Druid, Cleric, or Wizard, or some of the more magically oriented high level monsters, you'll see that the Fighter, even with a bunch of added HP just can't compete.

no, but a fighter who finds himself in a bind, fighting invisible foes, can suddenly have blindfighting, or a fighter with dodge and mobility can suddenly learn spring attack for a few rounds, or even suddenly delivers a stunning fist out of the blue. etc

its all in your planning and skill with fighters, they have faults, yes, all classes do. which is why each party member relies on each other for support. no one is a one man army. be you wizard or fighter or cleric or rogue... find yourself alone, and you're dead.

[Zale]

no, but a fighter who finds himself in a bind, fighting invisible foes, can suddenly have blindfighting, or a fighter with dodge and mobility can suddenly learn spring attack for a few rounds, or even suddenly delivers a stunning fist out of the blue. etc

its all in your planning and skill with fighters, they have faults, yes, all classes do. which is why each party member relies on each other for support. no one is a one man army. be you wizard or fighter or cleric or rogue... find yourself alone, and you're dead.

While that's true for lower levels, at high levels a Wizard is more or less capable of dealing with anything a Fighter could deal with. And more.

Fighting? (I incapacitate everything now.)

Social Encounter? (Charm, Charm, Charm)

Scouting? (Flight, Divination, Summoning)

What role can can your, or any, Fighter fill that a Wizard can't through some sort of magical means?

[bobthe6th]

and he is going to be backing on miss chances... mirror image, displacment... stuff so that he will have a much higher chance of dodging. AC is nice, but most balanced encounters will still hit you a lot. Most things don't have miss chance mitigation.

[LordErebus12]

While that's true for lower levels, at high levels a Wizard is more or less capable of dealing with anything a Fighter could deal with. And more.

Fighting? (I incapacitate everything now.)

Social Encounter? (Charm, Charm, Charm)

Scouting? (Flight, Divination, Summoning)

What role can can your, or any, Fighter fill that a Wizard can't through some sort of magical means?

blame the magic system, lol. we are working with something beyond the realm of muscle and steel.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

So, for the larger issue of Wizards vs. Fighters... Wizards are brokenly high, fighters are (by Raw, without special items) brokenly low. Getting them onto the same tier just isn't gonna happen.

The good news is, Balance isn't the same as Fun. Fighters can attract a different sort of player than Wizards - less bookkeeping, and your actions are less important, so you have some more flexibility in terms of roleplaying, etc.

When it comes to fighter fixes, I'd focus less on fixing the fact that they're too limited, and just try to make them more fun. I think the OP's fix might actually be a pretty good start for that - more flexibility, ability to have a few more skills to contribute in off-hours, ability to string together a few extra feats when the situation calls for it...

Don't get me wrong, balancing fighters and mages is a noble goal... I just don't see it happening within the existing framework. That sort of balance will have to wait for a new edition, or be found in a different system.

[LordErebus12]

So, for the larger issue of Wizards vs. Fighters... Wizards are brokenly high, fighters are (by Raw, without special items) brokenly low. Getting them onto the same tier just isn't gonna happen.

The good news is, Balance isn't the same as Fun. Fighters can attract a different sort of player than Wizards - less bookkeeping, and your actions are less important, so you have some more flexibility in terms of roleplaying, etc.

When it comes to fighter fixes, I'd focus less on fixing the fact that they're too limited, and just try to make them more fun. I think the OP's fix might actually be a pretty good start for that - more flexibility, ability to have a few more skills to contribute in off-hours, ability to string together a few extra feats when the situation calls for it...

Don't get me wrong, balancing fighters and mages is a noble goal... I just don't see it happening within the existing framework. That sort of balance will have to wait for a new edition, or be found in a different system.

i agree totally.

EXCEPT: your actions are totally important. a wrong move could leave an ally open to death. which will kill you in the long run.

[Dienekes]

blame the magic system, lol. we are working with something beyond the realm of muscle and steel.

And that is more or less why Fighters can't have nice things. They're stuck in the realm of muscle and steel. Even though by all accounts they've surpassed it and become demi-gods. At 20th level a Fighter can go for a swim in a bed of lava, and deals enough damage to break apart a castle. They are beyond the realm of muscle and steel, and have been for a good, long time.

[LordErebus12]

And that is more or less why Fighters can't have nice things. They're stuck in the realm of muscle and steel. Even though by all accounts they've surpassed it and become demi-gods. At 20th level a Fighter can go for a swim in a bed of lava, and deals enough damage to break apart a castle. They are beyond the realm of muscle and steel, and have been for a good, long time.

good point... that lava is good for exfoliation

[Amechra]

20th level fighters can also take a good nap and remove most of their wounds.

Actually, that is kind of a neat idea... Fighters add their BAB to their level and to their ability scores for certain out of combat things (so they can carry several tons without strain at high levels, they can sleep off mortal wounds, they can run for an hour straight at full tilt, they can hold their breath for ages, and so on and so forth.)

While it doesn't add new things, it helps make certain things impressive in an organic manner, and other neat things can be added later.

[bobthe6th]

But back to the subject at hand.

As has been noted, the mundane is "broken low."
Any combat variation like the proposed heal skill disperpotionetly effects mundane.
Therfore, this varient widens the already wide power gap, and so is broken.

[LordErebus12]

But back to the subject at hand.

As has been noted, the mundane is "broken low."
Any combat variation like the proposed heal skill disperpotionetly effects mundane.
Therfore, this varient widens the already wide power gap, and so is broken.

especially in low magical worlds. Perhaps it should only be used in high level games?

[bobthe6th]

Or make it a fatigue thing... but bleed out rules also boost rocket tag...

I think the answer is this would require a massive system retool, which is what I want to do at some point.

I say just make it a knowledge skill, and at most make rank -3 the caster level for healing spells. These make the skill semi requiered, and also let it be as useful as like knowledge arcana.

[Kane0]

How about adding a real healing kit to use the heal skill with.
A healing kit is a bunch of regular and alchemical first aid supplies wrapped up into a nice bundle.
Using a heal kit to restore HP or ability damage requires an hour of uninterrupted work. This can be performed during a standard 8 hour rest period.
Using a heal kit to remove a temporary condition requires a full round action provoking attacks of opportunity.

- When healing HP you heal HP equal to your Heal Check result
- When healing a ability damage you heal an amount equal to your heal check divided by 10.
- When removing a temporary condition your Heal check must beat the DC of the effect that bestowed the condition originally. If there was no saving throw then the attempt fails.

Masterwork healing kits give a +1 to heal checks, and magical healing kits can be found that have additional benefits.

Hows that?

[FreakyCheeseMan]

How about adding a real healing kit to use the heal skill with.
A healing kit is a bunch of regular and alchemical first aid supplies wrapped up into a nice bundle.
Using a heal kit to restore HP or ability damage requires an hour of uninterrupted work. This can be performed during a standard 8 hour rest period.
Using a heal kit to remove a temporary condition requires a full round action provoking attacks of opportunity.

- When healing HP you heal HP equal to your Heal Check result
- When healing a ability damage you heal an amount equal to your heal check divided by 10.
- When removing a temporary condition your Heal check must beat the DC of the effect that bestowed the condition originally. If there was no saving throw then the attempt fails.

Masterwork healing kits give a +1 to heal checks, and magical healing kits can be found that have additional benefits.

Hows that?

I could live with that. There would need to be a set list of temporary conditions, of course, or possibly a rule that some conditions needed a magical healing kit to fix - sort of like how some monsters need a magical weapon to hurt.

[Deviston]

Flying? Throw a net/hide until the threat is forced to come down to you to find you.
Invis? Paint/water/glitter for god's sakes. Fabulous? Yes, but fabulous and no longer invis.

People are so very attached to the "KILL IT" mentaliity, they forget they can run away for exmaple, or perhaps (heaven's forbid) ask for help. The fighter most likely won't win versus a fully charge wizard, but then why should he need to? Let's say perhaps your party doesn't have another wizard to keep him occupied, couldn't you hire a little boy to throw rocks at the wizards window every hour throughout the night? Fella doesn't get a good night sleep and has fewer spells to contend with. Maybe he even elects to slip poison into the food of a loved one of the wizard for him to have to deal with that issue. Or sneak in somehow and snatch away the spell book.
There are a million and one ways to handle a situation. A DM who only allows the "British infantry walking side by side directly toward the enemy" tactic is a DM you shouldn't be playing with anyway.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Flying? Throw a net/hide until the threat is forced to come down to you to find you.
Invis? Paint/water/glitter for god's sakes. Fabulous? Yes, but fabulous and no longer invis.

People are so very attached to the "KILL IT" mentaliity, they forget they can run away for exmaple, or perhaps (heaven's forbid) ask for help. The fighter most likely won't win versus a fully charge wizard, but then why should he need to? Let's say perhaps your party doesn't have another wizard to keep him occupied, couldn't you hire a little boy to throw rocks at the wizards window every hour throughout the night? Fella doesn't get a good night sleep and has fewer spells to contend with. Maybe he even elects to slip poison into the food of a loved one of the wizard for him to have to deal with that issue. Or sneak in somehow and snatch away the spell book.
There are a million and one ways to handle a situation. A DM who only allows the "British infantry walking side by side directly toward the enemy" tactic is a DM you shouldn't be playing with anyway.

Wrong thread?

[Deviston]

Nope. If you have read the whole thread, you'll see it's on topic. People say that the fighter can't take a kick in the pants like some of the suggested healing fixes because the fighter is low brow. However, a fighter is only low brow if people play him like a video game auto attacker. If the fighter plays like what a fighter is (a master of combat strategy and maneuver) then the healing fixes won't be an issues.

However, most people just run it and swing pointy things and call themselves a fighter. If they do that every fight, sure, these healings fixes are more like nerfs.

Edit: The fighter isn't bad because the fighter is bad. The fighter is bad because players/DM's are bad.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sorry, my bad. It's been a while, and I didn't realize you were jumping back so many posts. Anyway:

The fighter isn't bad because the fighter is bad. The fighter is bad because players/DM's are bad.

That's the... Oberani fallacy? Something like that. You can't claim that a class is good because a player can be clever. Throwing rocks at the wizard's window to keep him awake? Splashing paint around to take care of invisible creatures? Roleplaying and thinking your way past challenges? Yeah, that's good playing. But such tactics are irrelevant to a discussion of a specific class, because they're not class-specific. You can have fun and use clever tactics with any class. But some classes provide more tools-- skills, spells, class abilities, what have you-- for clever players to use than others.

In any case, let's not get into a "is the fighter a good class" argument here. That's not the issue in question. The issue is that in an attempt to revitalize a near-useless skill (Heal), the OP introduced a mechanic which causes undue difficulty for every single class in the game.

Worse... it's an objective fact in 3.5 that spellcasters have more potential power- in any sense of the word- than melee. For the purposes of this ability, they have more ways to avoid being hit (illusions, buffs, summons, mobility spells, and so on) than mundane classes. Particularly mundane classes who are designed to get up-close and personal with monsters-- fighters, paladins, barbarians, and their ilk. Particularly given how often monster attack outstrips unoptimized AC.

[Deviston]

"The issue is that in an attempt to revitalize a near-useless skill (Heal), the OP introduced a mechanic which causes undue difficulty for every single class in the game."

Undue is in the eye of the beholder. As I see it (and I'm assuming the OP) it makes more sense. IE taking out undue ease attributed to "game-isms".

"3.5 that spellcasters have more potential power- in any sense of the word- than melee"

If they have their full night rest, if they are unhindered when casting, if they (wizard) have access to their book, if they (cleric) haven't done some innocuous thing to offend their deity, if they if they if they. Casting is easy peasy under the perfect circumstances. But when would a battle/fight/duel have perfect circumstances? Rarely I would think, once again unless the DM/player is herp derp enough to allow that. The concept of "ok I have swiped at you and now I'll just sit here while you cast death lotus at me hur dur pur" is what most of the "balance" conversations seem to be based on.

That being said, when nuances are taken into account, the Heal skill revamp proposed by me or the OP makes a lot more sense. Obviously just my opinion, but once again we know what people say about opinions...

[LordErebus12]

at any rate, arguing the overall fairness of classes wasnt the point of my OP. I thought to add a new level of difficulty and one that made the healers more important (opposite to the norm, as some would argue).

I did say that the players would dislike it, but its global effect. a major detriment to everything within the world, except regenerating creatures like trolls, that added a more realistic aspect to an otherwise unrealistic world. (high level humans swimming in lava, spells flying through the air, etc...)