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Zanthy1

2013-02-09, 03:18 PM

Hello! This is a continuation of the thread found here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270414

Titled "Theoretical Question."

This is the edited and revised idea I had come up with.

All Change has Consequence

Your mid-level adventuring party has made it through the Lich’s lair in the Dark Forest, slaying the vile beast and smashing his Phylactery into tiny shards of glass. In his study, you come across what appears to be a book, that upon picking up magically opens up to a page and grows brightly, and before you can react all the writing on the pages vanish and you are informed mentally that you have been given a great Power, one that allows you the Change reality, and that all actions have Consequences.

What just happened is you were granted a special ability that allows you to Change reality almost anyway you see fit (DM discretion). However, after each use you are reduced to 1hp and it cannot be restored for 1 hour (temporary hit points given before use are removed as well, any given after are halved)

In addition, you roll a d100. On a 1-15 nothing happens to you, on a 16-50 a minor consequence occurs, on a 51-80 a medium consequence occurs, on a 81-98 a major consequence occurs, on a 99-100 the Ultimate consequence occurs.

All Consequences relate to what the Change was. However, the severity of the Consequence is randomly determined by the rolling of the d100. A minor Consequence would be something mildly encumbering, like the loss of sight in 1 eye for a week, or a penalty on certain rolls for a short amount of time, or permanently changing the color of your hair. A medium Consequence would be a step up, whereas a major would be a lot more permanent damage towards things, such as an arm disappears, you lose some hp of of your base hit points, you forever lose a spell per day from a level. The Ultimate Consequence is total annihilation. Your body and all possessions are obliterated and turned to absolute nothingness, your soul is shredded, there is absolutely nothing left except for the memories people have of you. Logistics wise, whatever Change you enact occurs first, and after it has resolved then the Consequence is rolled.

There are modifiers that alter your Consequence roll. The first time you use it, the modifier is a simple +0. It increases by 1 for each use. In addition, each level of consequence increases the modifier. Minor adds +2, Medium adds +3, Major adds +4. For example, the first time you use the power, you roll a 40. This incurs a minor Consequence and adds a total of +3 to your next roll. These modifiers are permanent

In all decisions, the DM has the final say. He or she is not required to allow every Change the player comes up with, but if the DM does veto something then the situation is treated like nothing happened, it was as though the player never tried. Upon receiving the power, the DM must explain out of game to the Player the full extent of this power, specifically about the Consequence system, however it is up to the DM how much those Player’s Characters will know.

Please give me feedback! Would you use this?

Thanks!

tiercel

2013-02-09, 09:57 PM

My initial gut reaction is "Deck of Many Things" meets "The Monkey's Paw."

At which point I would seriously consider casting modify memory to forget having ever found it.

...reading more carefully, it looks like wish-twisting is a bit less likely but (A) I'd still be curious/concerned about what exactly a Change could accomplish (it sounds as if it might range well beyond the power of a standard wish) and (B) I'd have to be really freaking desperate to ever use it, given that there is a (small but nonzero) chance that every time I do use the Power, it could obliterate my presumably otherwise immortal soul.

In a world where the afterlife is known and objectively proven to be true, that latter point is a pretty major consideration.

...actually, come to think of it, if I am Evil (and yet rational) and know that I'm Evil and that my soul is inexorably headed for a hot place anyway, I'd be a lot more likely to use the Power, figuring if the Consequence isn't too bad I can use the Power to take over the world, and if I do get oblivion, it's probably still better than an eternity in the Hells/Abyss/Gehenna.

If I'm Good and striving for an eternity of paradise though, I'm only pushing The Button if I'm being a Big Damn Hero with no other choice to save the world, sort of thing.

Amphetryon

2013-02-09, 10:05 PM

I wouldn't use it, and the only Character I've had that might had INT and WIS each below 6, so he wouldn't know better and wouldn't be able to see the potentially horrible consequences.

TuggyNE

2013-02-09, 10:22 PM

I'd try to figure out how to pass it on to the next poor sucker, like the lich probably did with an overly-complicated scheme to ensure someone would (temporarily?) kill him.

Barring that, I'd save it for a rainy day, where "rainy day" means "I'm going to die and have my soul eaten anyway".

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-09, 10:40 PM

Definitely a rainy day kind of item. Smart/wise people recognize that all power has price, and that the most secure power is that which you accomplish through your own talents. Relying on the tenuous, if world shattering, reality alter is poor logic, since if it was useful once (whatever the circumstance), something will eventually happen later and the easy route will still be there, the risk only marginally greater, it's acceptance as a solution still viable. Basically, classic slippery slope.

If I want to sacrifice stuff for power, I'll burn experience to power one of the many spells in the game that give awesome effects with a clearly defined, predictable price (at least as far as mechanics is concerned, addiction to magical solutions is still addiction).

That said, a more chaotic character with less forethought might deem this a good way to accomplish x or y, no muss no fuss.

You really need to outline the exact scope of change possible. Otherwise someone could do something like eliminate all magic from the world, rendering those that still have this Power god-like beings. Or you could wish for the Power to vanish from existence, rather poor loophole for a Monkey's Paw-type effect, and being slightly unfair to other characters that might not have gotten to use the Power yet.

Amnestic

2013-02-09, 10:41 PM

So I get an Alter Reality Ex ability, but it's completely subject to DM whim. In addition, it drops me to 1HP for an hour along with an 18% chance of permanent disfigurement (be it physical, mental or ability-wise) and a 2% chance of instant annihilation where I don't get an afterlife? Those chances increase drastically with every use of the ability too.

Not unless I really hated that character I wouldn't. Just ain't worth the risk.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-02-09, 10:51 PM

Hmm... I'm reminded of the three wishes from Planescape: Torment.

Past that, it'd all depend on the sadism of the DM. I've had DMs before to whom the rational reaction to getting a wish would be to fall on your knees and beg him to please, please not make you wish for anything.

Seriously, that guy was a sadist.

"I wish for a sword."
"Okay, a sword appears, it's sticking out of your chest. You die."
"I wish I had a sword in my hand."
"Okay, a sword appears, it's stabbed straight through your hand. And your chest. You die."
"I wish a sword would appear 10 feet away from me."
"Okay, a sword appears 10 feet about your head, falls down, stabs you in the head and kills you. You die."
"I wish a sword would appear 10 feet away from me, not more than 30 degrees above my head, and with no momentum relative to myself or the planet."
"Okay, a sword appears in the ground 10 feet beneath you. A lizardman steps out of the forest and attacks you with a trident. Don't you wish you had a sword now?"

But, if the DM were reasonable and the power was powerful enough, I'd probably make some pretty significant changes. Starting with the cosmology.

Milo v3

2013-02-09, 11:35 PM

Phelix-Mu

2013-02-09, 11:58 PM

In older editions of the game, the wish description gave the DM considerably more room to creatively interpret wish requests, whether to the detriment of the player or not. It was generally implied that poorly-worded wishes were likely to not quite do what the player/pc had intended, in ways either small or spectacular. DMs that handed out wishes and then effectively took them away weren't entirely uncommon back then.

In 3e, this kind of behavior on the part of the DM is not at all called for. There are much more legit ways to cut a pc down to size, not to mention more subtle and interesting ways to challenge/nearly kill/probably kill him or her, in the more current editions.

Invader

2013-02-10, 12:58 AM

I still wouldn't use it mostly because of wording like this:

"A medium Consequence would be a step up, whereas a major would be a lot more permanent damage towards things, such as an arm disappears, you lose some hp of of your base hit points, you forever lose a spell per day from a level".

A medium consequence seems like it could be a pretty broad array of things, likewise I see a huge difference between "you lose an arm" and "you permanently lose "some" hit points.

The whole penalty system seems kind of not well thought out and arbitrary and you need to be more clear on the consequences. If I lose an appendage can I get it back as easy as finding a regeneration spell or as a drawback to getting the wish is it gone forever with no chance of getting it back. If I lose "some" hit points, it could range anywhere from 2- all the hit points ever.

Morcleon

2013-02-10, 01:19 AM

Logistics wise, whatever Change you enact occurs first, and after it has resolved then the Consequence is rolled.

"...I wish that the Consequence due to this and any other subsequent changes made by me to always be treated as if I had rolled a 1, regardless of any other influence, including but not limited to deific powers, wish, miracle, DM fiat, and anything that is seen, by me, as DM fiat."

There is practically no reason I would use this, unless the DM allowed the above Change, or if I found a way to constantly force the dice to roll 1-15.

Everything is far too nebulous. Making a table with the possible consequences listed out would be nice so that better critique can be given. :smallsmile:

Hmm... I'm reminded of the three wishes from Planescape: Torment.

Past that, it'd all depend on the sadism of the DM. I've had DMs before to whom the rational reaction to getting a wish would be to fall on your knees and beg him to please, please not make you wish for anything.

Seriously, that guy was a sadist.

"I wish for a sword."
"Okay, a sword appears, it's sticking out of your chest. You die."
"I wish I had a sword in my hand."
"Okay, a sword appears, it's stabbed straight through your hand. And your chest. You die."
"I wish a sword would appear 10 feet away from me."
"Okay, a sword appears 10 feet about your head, falls down, stabs you in the head and kills you. You die."
"I wish a sword would appear 10 feet away from me, not more than 30 degrees above my head, and with no momentum relative to myself or the planet."
"Okay, a sword appears in the ground 10 feet beneath you. A lizardman steps out of the forest and attacks you with a trident. Don't you wish you had a sword now?"

But, if the DM were reasonable and the power was powerful enough, I'd probably make some pretty significant changes. Starting with the cosmology.

"I wish for a sword that appears in my hand in such a way as follows the spirit of the wish, which is defined by me (currently the spirit of the wish is that the sword will not negatively impact me nor anyone through the manner in which it appears, and will appear in such a way that it is being wielded by me) and may be changed at any point by me, even retroactively, regardless of any circumstances." :smallbiggrin:

Zanthy1

2013-02-10, 02:49 AM

[QUOTE=Morcleon;14684287]"...I wish that the Consequence due to this and any other subsequent changes made by me to always be treated as if I had rolled a 1, regardless of any other influence, including but not limited to deific powers, wish, miracle, DM fiat, and anything that is seen, by me, as DM fiat."

There is practically no reason I would use this, unless the DM allowed the above Change, or if I found a way to constantly force the dice to roll 1-15.

Everything is far too nebulous. Making a table with the possible consequences listed out would be nice so that better critique can be given. :smallsmile:/QUOTE]

I didn't make a table because the Consequence is related to the Change made. If you change the way a wall is shaped, say to add a door that had not previously been there, then a possible minor consequence is that the door is really small, a medium would be that there is a door, but it is locked super tight with traps. A major consequence would be that the door is locked, with traps, and whoever owns the wall suddenly feels the urge to inspect a particular area with an entourage of guards.

The point about it being up to the DM is so that people cannot Change everything, like eliminating Consequence rules and such, or switching from 3.5 to pathfinder. This power is meant to be present but not used often, and thus if they can cheat the system and use it as often as possible without a Consequence, the whole purpose is defeated. The DM discretion is meant to veto certain actions. However, as mentioned (although admittedly not super duper clearly) that if the DM vetoes a Change, the player can just do something else. A vetoed Change doesn't even fizzle, it just doesn't happen. It would be like asking the DM a question out of game, and if he says "yes you can do that, roll the die" then it happens in game. If the DM says "no that is not allowed, try again" then literally play doesn't proceed. It is still that players turn, no actions have been used yet. DM vetoing is not meant to save the BBEG, it is meant to check the creative genius that all DnD players posses to try and get around the rules.

Morcleon

2013-02-10, 03:02 AM

I didn't make a table because the Consequence is related to the Change made. If you change the way a wall is shaped, say to add a door that had not previously been there, then a possible minor consequence is that the door is really small, a medium would be that there is a door, but it is locked super tight with traps. A major consequence would be that the door is locked, with traps, and whoever owns the wall suddenly feels the urge to inspect a particular area with an entourage of guards.

The point about it being up to the DM is so that people cannot Change everything, like eliminating Consequence rules and such, or switching from 3.5 to pathfinder. This power is meant to be present but not used often, and thus if they can cheat the system and use it as often as possible without a Consequence, the whole purpose is defeated. The DM discretion is meant to veto certain actions. However, as mentioned (although admittedly not super duper clearly) that if the DM vetoes a Change, the player can just do something else. A vetoed Change doesn't even fizzle, it just doesn't happen. It would be like asking the DM a question out of game, and if he says "yes you can do that, roll the die" then it happens in game. If the DM says "no that is not allowed, try again" then literally play doesn't proceed. It is still that players turn, no actions have been used yet. DM vetoing is not meant to save the BBEG, it is meant to check the creative genius that all DnD players posses to try and get around the rules.

In which case you should have stated that the consequence is related to the change. From what is currently written, it just seems like a random penalty for doing this.

Perhaps the severity of the change affects the possible severities of the consequence?

Also, what are you aiming for with this power? Basically, in an idealized world, what should the PCs be using this for?

Kornaki

2013-02-10, 04:30 AM

So if I wish for a door there are equal odds of me getting a usable door and getting TPKed by a major consequence? :smallconfused:

I guess the moral of the story is don't waste it making a door, but still

Zanthy1

2013-02-10, 09:38 AM

In which case you should have stated that the consequence is related to the change. From what is currently written, it just seems like a random penalty for doing this.

Perhaps the severity of the change affects the possible severities of the consequence?

Also, what are you aiming for with this power? Basically, in an idealized world, what should the PCs be using this for?

Honestly this was just an idea I had randomly and wanted to see if I could make it into something. Ideally the PCs should be using this in dire situations, not necessarily a last resort, but certainly near the end of resorts they have remaining. Ideally PCs wouldn't use it for things like making items or getting gold, or stat boosting, however I know that PCs will use it how they please, and I am curious to see how it turns out. I plan on implementing it into something to see how it works in actual game play, because in theory it could be absolutely crazy.

@kornaki, those were simply off the top of my head ideas, using it to create a door, especially when they really need a door, is something that I would consider a good use of this Power. What I am trying to do with the Consequences is have them directly relate to the Change made, only the severity of the Consequence is random. There would be a chance of having uber bad stuff happening to you each time you use it, but thats a risk that could really enhance the actual gaming experience. A note: Most Consequences will probably not result in a TPK, because the Consequences are targeted at the user. But as with all actions in DnD, there is always chance that something will kill you.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-02-10, 09:40 AM

"I wish for a sword that appears in my hand in such a way as follows the spirit of the wish, which is defined by me (currently the spirit of the wish is that the sword will not negatively impact me nor anyone through the manner in which it appears, and will appear in such a way that it is being wielded by me) and may be changed at any point by me, even retroactively, regardless of any circumstances." :smallbiggrin:

We eventually ended up with something like that. Then, we just had to contend with the Invisible Pink Lizards.

They were horrifying.

Amnestic

2013-02-10, 10:04 AM

Ideally the PCs should be using this in dire situations, not necessarily a last resort, but certainly near the end of resorts they have remaining.

This is something which has a chance to wipe you from existence. It doesn't just kill you, it burns your character sheet right then and there. Death in D&D can be cured. You'll eat a penalty, sure, but you can be cured. Mid-high level players may even have contingency plans set up to guarantee this happening (associates who will attempt divinations and then resurrections if you don't check in every X [period of time], for example).

Sure, it's only 2% chance at annihilation at first, but that in and of itself is enough to make sure it'll almost never see use by me.