Playing in new Campaign, advice appreciated

[DragonSinged]

Hello Playgrounders!

I've played in more than a few 3.5 games, and GM'd for 4 or 5, but it's been a while since I've played - maybe a year or two.
Anyways, I recently talked a friend of mine into running a campaign (yes!), and I thought I'd try playing something from the Tome of Battle.
A player in a game I was running once played a Crusader, and it looked fun, and the book itself seemed pretty well-balanced to me, so I recently went out and bought it, and am finding myself very intrigued by the versatility of the Swordsage.
Really, the 50 teleports starting at level 3 are what caught my attention. Also greater invisibility? Ok, only for one turn, but still, pretty badass.

So anyways, the dude that's running the game isn't really allowing a whole lot of books, but I think I can talk him into letting me use the Tome of Battle. Other than that, and Core, oh and Forgotten Realms books (as that's where the campaign's taking place), I can't really count on anything else. I'll update when I know more on that side of things.
(I also don't know much about the Forgotten Realms, never played a FR game before, or read the books. I know the gods are more active, but not much else.)


ANYWAYS.

So I've been reading up on Swordsage. The GM I think frowns on anything that looks too much like it might involve min-maxing, so I'm gonna try to keep it somewhat simple, probably just Swordsage 1-20. We're starting at level 4.
I want to be able to put out some damage in battle, but I also want to keep up with those cool utility abilities - teleports, invisibilities, things that have use outside of battle, etc.

I keep seeing people mentioning TWF (which I've never used before), but I'm not sure how viable that is with SS 1-20? I get that it's pretty feat-intensive, usually, and it seems like Swordsage's sometimes need 1 hand free for some of their maneuvers, anyways?

I'm also not really sold on playing a Human. I mean, I play one of those in real life all the time, why would I want to play one in D&D?
On the other hand, though, they seem like they're (mechanically) just a solid race that keeps being mentioned. Swordsage's already have a feat tax with Adaptive Style, so that free feat is hard to turn up.
Also on that note, I'd really like to avoid flaws and whatnot, I don't think that would fly with this GM.

Oh, other characters in the game so far (that I know of), will be a Sun-elf Duskblade and a (probably) half-elf bard.

Alright, ok, I'm rambling a bit.

tl;dr

Could you please help me with some advice for putting together a level 4 Swordsage? Notes on Equipment, Race, and feats are especially appreciated.


Also, would anyone actually care to read a journal on the happenings of the campaign, if I were to post one when it's started? The game won't be running until March.

Thanks very much for any help!

~DragonSinged

EDIT: A couple more notes, because I haven't gone on enough already:

I'm assuming until I hear otherwise that we're working with point-buy stats.
Also, the GM is at least a little bit old-school - he's the type to randomly roll loot in front of the group at the table after the end of an encounter, and I don't think he's too afraid of killing off characters. Let me know if there's any other info I've forgotten!

[Amnestic]

I believe this is the latest attempt at a Swordsage Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=259783).

If you're bored of Humans, why not Strongheart Halfling? It's a Forgotten Realms Halfling which nabs the bonus feat from humans in exchange for their bonus to saves.

Other than that, just peruse the Handbook - got decent info there.

[tiercel]

The handbook link is an excellent place to start.

You can certainly cherry-pick the schools to get the maneuvers and stances you think are coolest/most useful, and there's no reason not to. Chances are over the build of your character you'll wind up concentrating more on one or two schools (if nothing else to meet prereqs of higher-level maneuvers), and this will be determined in part by the way you want your character to "feel"...

Desert Wind -- Human Torch (ok, Desert Wind isn't ALL about fire.. but a lot is)
Diamond Mind -- Kwai Chang Caine, grasshopper. (very much "serene monk" feel, and you will max out your Concentration score hard)
Setting Sun -- judo master (throws, battlefield control)
Shadow Hand -- ninja (very stealth/rogue in feel, plus Shadow Blade lets you leverage a high dex all the more)
Stone Dragon -- Bruce Banner (though note: text at beginning of Stone Dragon warns that maneuvers require you to stand on the ground)
Tiger Claw -- Wolverine, bub (aggressive TWF fighting, you will max out your Jump score)

It's worth checking some of the fighting-style feats (like Shadow Blade, mentioned above) if you are going to spend a fair amount of your time in one school's stances or using its maneuvers.

It's worth cherry picking a few maneuvers simply for out-of-combat awesomeness that surpasses even their in-combat utility (most notably, Shadow Jaunt letting you *BAMF* 50' at-will teleport even if it does need LoS/LoE, Mountain Hammer ignoring hardness means you can at least slowly, but eventually, destroy any object you put your weapon/fists to... locks.... chests... doors... walls.. mountainsides...).

[danzibr]

If it's not too late I would suggest throwing in some Warblade and Master of Nine. You'll get the maneuvers a bit later but you get many more readied and known.

[DragonSinged]

@Amnestic: I did not know Strongheart Halflings were a FR Race, I will definitely check them out. Do they have a 30 move speed?
I've seen that handbook, it's unfortunate that there doesn't seem to be a complete SS handbook anywhere. All of them seem to be only partially done. :smallannoyed:


@tiercel: I think I've got a pretty good grasp on the maneuvers, though I might be a little worried that I won't end up taking enough strikes. I really like a lot of the utility maneuvers, I might have trouble letting go of some of them. As far as the feats, I don't know whether I'll end up spending a lot of time in one stance/discipline, or whether I'll be switching around a lot.

@danzibr: While I have played a fair amount of D&D, I almost always just go single-class, none of the groups I'm in are super into optimization, which is one of the reasons I was thinking SS 1-20. Think you (or someone) could give me a bit of a run-down on what the advantages of throwing in some Warblade & Mo9 would be, and what that would look like, build-wise, if the character is starting at level 4?


Thanks for the replies!

[DMVerdandi]

@Amnestic: I did not know Strongheart Halflings were a FR Race, I will definitely check them out. Do they have a 30 move speed?
I've seen that handbook, it's unfortunate that there doesn't seem to be a complete SS handbook anywhere. All of them seem to be only partially done. :smallannoyed:


@tiercel: I think I've got a pretty good grasp on the maneuvers, though I might be a little worried that I won't end up taking enough strikes. I really like a lot of the utility maneuvers, I might have trouble letting go of some of them. As far as the feats, I don't know whether I'll end up spending a lot of time in one stance/discipline, or whether I'll be switching around a lot.

@danzibr: While I have played a fair amount of D&D, I almost always just go single-class, none of the groups I'm in are super into optimization, which is one of the reasons I was thinking SS 1-20. Think you (or someone) could give me a bit of a run-down on what the advantages of throwing in some Warblade & Mo9 would be, and what that would look like, build-wise, if the character is starting at level 4?


Thanks for the replies!

If you want some suggestions, I suggest you use the unarmed swordsage.
It gives you some monk abilities on top of the swordsage ones.
As for feats, possibly picking up Intuitive Attack, then power attack.
(Allows you to main wisdom as your primary stat which gives you your bonus to attack AND ac.)
From there, probably superior unarmed strike and adaptive style.

[DragonSinged]

If you want some suggestions, I suggest you use the unarmed swordsage.
It gives you some monk abilities on top of the swordsage ones.
As for feats, possibly picking up Intuitive Attack, then power attack.
(Allows you to main wisdom as your primary stat which gives you your bonus to attack AND ac.)
From there, probably superior unarmed strike and adaptive style.

Eh, I've played a monk in the past (Dvati monk, actually, it was quite a bit of fun) and have no particular desire to play an unarmed character at this point. Intuitive attack I have heard about, that's in... complete adventurer? I'm trying to keep this character confined to as few books as possible, but I'm going to ask the GM about that feat, and an item I read about that's in the.. Tome of Magic, I think? Umbral Collar or some such, apparently quite good for helping with sneaky-ness, though part of me can't help but think that gaining Hide in Plain Sight from an item is a little cheesy.

[danzibr]

Well, I can't get really specific because I don't know the material too well, but say for example you go Swordsage 8 and then Warblade 1. Your Warblade initiator level is 8/2+1=5 and so you can start off with a third level maneuver or two. It's especially cool the other way around (like Warblade 8/Swordsage 1) so you can grab some of those cool Swordsage maneuvers.

Plus if you've planned out your Swordsage 1-20 you'll probably come across several levels where there aren't any maneuvers you really want. Throwing in some Warblade (or hey, Crusader) livens it up a bit.

Then when you do get to higher levels and want all those awesome maneuvers you can take a level of Mo9 or 2. They get a lot of maneuvers and stances known, relative to other classes anyway.

[tiercel]

@tiercel: I think I've got a pretty good grasp on the maneuvers, though I might be a little worried that I won't end up taking enough strikes. I really like a lot of the utility maneuvers, I might have trouble letting go of some of them. As far as the feats, I don't know whether I'll end up spending a lot of time in one stance/discipline, or whether I'll be switching around a lot.

I wouldn't worry about the discipline feats until and unless you are feeling like you really want to identify strongly with one over another then.

You're right about the strikes though -- part of it will depend on your/your DM's playstyle, how long a typical combat is, since your strikes (or boosts) are your bread and butter for actually dealing damage/status effects. You probably want to have at least 3 strikes or offensive boosts readied at any one time so that you can do something "cool"/effective almost every round of a 4-5 round combat. If your combats typically run longer, you might have to keep even more strikes readied; if your combats typically run MUCH longer, than losing one full-round action to Adaptive Style and refresh doesn't hurt so much.

(At least with Adaptive Style, you can switch to more "utility" and then swap back in a combat load when you feel like you need it.)

[Kuulvheysoon]

Well, I can't get really specific because I don't know the material too well, but say for example you go Swordsage 8 and then Warblade 1. Your Warblade initiator level is 8/2+1=5 and so you can start off with a third level maneuver or two. It's especially cool the other way around (like Warblade 8/Swordsage 1) so you can grab some of those cool Swordsage maneuvers.

Plus if you've planned out your Swordsage 1-20 you'll probably come across several levels where there aren't any maneuvers you really want. Throwing in some Warblade (or hey, Crusader) livens it up a bit.

Then when you do get to higher levels and want all those awesome maneuvers you can take a level of Mo9 or 2. They get a lot of maneuvers and stances known, relative to other classes anyway.

Just be sure to take Swordsage at first level - that x6 skills at first level is awesome.:smallwink:

[DragonSinged]

I wouldn't worry about the discipline feats until and unless you are feeling like you really want to identify strongly with one over another then.

You're right about the strikes though -- part of it will depend on your/your DM's playstyle, how long a typical combat is, since your strikes (or boosts) are your bread and butter for actually dealing damage/status effects. You probably want to have at least 3 strikes or offensive boosts readied at any one time so that you can do something "cool"/effective almost every round of a 4-5 round combat. If your combats typically run longer, you might have to keep even more strikes readied; if your combats typically run MUCH longer, than losing one full-round action to Adaptive Style and refresh doesn't hurt so much.

(At least with Adaptive Style, you can switch to more "utility" and then swap back in a combat load when you feel like you need it.)

That actually sounds like a good rule of thumb, keeping at least 3 strikes ready for combat, thanks. I also hadn't considered that adaptive style means I shouldn't have to keep utility maneuvers readied all the time.

Does anyone know of any good examples of warblade/SS/Mo9 builds that don't use a whole bunch of other books? Whenever I try to find any example builds, they inevitably involve 5 other books, 2 flaws, and only actually involve maybe 2 levels of SS, on top of all the ranger & rogue levels & whatnot. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Also, regarding weapons, as a Swordsage, is it very important to use a 1-handed weapon? I know that at least some of the maneuvers/stances require one hand free to use, does anyone with experience playing a SS know if that comes up in active play?
On that note, does anyone have any suggestions for ideal SS weapons?

[DragonSinged]

Just be sure to take Swordsage at first level - that x6 skills at first level is awesome.:smallwink:

I noticed that it says that, does anyone know whether that's just a typo? Has it been mentioned in any official FAQ's or Errata or anything? I mean, if it's intentional, I'll take it :smalltongue: but it seems to me like that must be a typo.

[Story]

Even if they forgot to errata it, it's obviously a typo. Noone would actually play with that.

[tiercel]

The official WotC errata for ToB is FUBAR (it got corrupted with a copy of the Complete Mage errata and never fixed).

To clarify what Story said, EVERY class grants its total skill points x4 at character level 1; without any particular justification, it is ridiculous that Swordsage would grant x6 unlike any other base class, ever, when it seems like a simple typo that results from the class getting a base 6 skill points/level.

As for SS weapons, I'd suppose it depends on whether you are planning on taking any TWF (mostly Tiger Claw) maneuvers, for the whole light/one-handed/two-handed thing. As far as a specific weapon goes, just make sure that you have taken at least one maneuver at 1st level from a discipline with preferred weapons that include whatever weapon you want to take Weapon Focus for.

Are there really that many specific maneuvers that require a free hand? Because in general, about the only advantages of having a free hand are (A) climbing (and still fighting) (B) disarming someone and claiming the disarmed weapon with the free hand rather than letting it fall to the ground and (C) fighting with a one-handed weapon and using the other hand for somatic spell components (though there is some support for the position that at least a buckler can be used on the "casting hand", much less two-handed weapons and casting, not that you probably care if you aren't multiclassing into casting with your swordsage).

The thing about ToB is that most of the time your real impact is coming from your maneuvers, not your base weapon. (It's why some people just go with the Unarmed Swordsage variant.) In general, I prefer to use SOME weapon rather than IUS just because a weapon gives you another "slot" to spend your WBL on (buying special abilities onto your weapon of choice, not to mention MIC weapon crystals, etc).