We never FIGHT spellcasters

[sambouchah]

None of the DMs I know make spellcasters villains or allow us to fight them at all. It makes my role as the caster/manifester utterly boring. How can I convince a DM to throw in some casters instead of just dead magic zones(which neither understands)?

Thanks, Sam

[Hiro Protagonest]

One does not simply fight a wizard...

[Nerd-o-rama]

Tell him to stop being lazy.

[Newoblivion]

Ask him? Or at list tell him to inform the players what kind of campaign he is running. So players won't make rogues for an undead heavy story.

I personally always include something that somehow makes players use their character's powers. Otherwise you just make their characters feel worthless.

[sambouchah]

One does not simply fight a wizard...


Tell him to stop being lazy.

Jade Dragon, well is combat or duel better?

And they both feel they are not being lazy(despite that they are both lazy) so I don't think it would phase them

[Amphetryon]

Why is it boring to play a caster if you aren't directly combating other spellcasters?

[enderlord99]

I have a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wqTpHhaKtL8) for you!

[ArcturusV]

I think he was referring to the fact that any Wizard with his salt is not just going to go, "Okay, Spell Fisticuffs, NOW!" and fight you. You won't even see the wizard. You'll just run into all the **** he sends at you and Arcane Doom he levels on you from miles (If not Planes) away.

Unless it's low level. In which case it's really just the balance that is throwing off the DM. So you probably weren't going to run into one at level 1 or 2 because even at level 1/2... a wizard can just DECIMATE an encounter.

Unless you get lazy. Be a dumbass. And say things like "you're ambushed by 3 level 1 wizards. Each wizard has only one spell prepared, magic missile."

Which makes no sense because no first level wizard would go into battle like that. They'd have Color Spray, or Charm Person, or Sleep, etc.

And honestly if all the mage you are fighting does is throw out two Fireballs, a few Acid Arrows, and a few Magic Missiles (So it doesn't horribly unbalance the ONLY encounter the enemy has to account for, against the PCs, so spell mongering doesn't come into play, you have to kinda choose a suboptimal evocation mage)... it's not that interesting. I mean colorwise, it's cool. Having fireballs, Lightning Bolts, etc, going on are great Special Effects and Flavor for a scene... but not mechanically interesting. And generally kinda weak.

If he plays his enemy wizards intelligently? You're not going to have much of a chance. Particularly with Tactical Supremacy as NPCs often have. That's why you typically don't see a lot of Mage/Cleric enemies. And when you do they are usually bosses.

[Flickerdart]

Caster NPCs don't have to be ultra-paranoid superwizards. Hell, even putting together a regular run of the mill Sorcerer can be a ton of work if he only shows up once and then dies. In this case, pre-mades are your friends. I recommend the Fiend Folio's ethergaunts, who are powerful casters with pretty decent default lists. For human foes, the fixed list casters (Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage) are an easy choice, and each one takes a different approach to defeat. Beguilers have to be fought with dispels and divinations, Dread Necros are best opposed with anti-undead necromancy spells, and Warmages should be counterspelled or warded against using protective abjurations.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think he was referring to the fact that any Wizard with his salt is not just going to go, "Okay, Spell Fisticuffs, NOW!" and fight you. You won't even see the wizard. You'll just run into all the **** he sends at you and Arcane Doom he levels on you from miles (If not Planes) away.

I was trying to make a joke (it's practically a meme), but yeah, this, even on lower op. I have no idea why fighting a spellcaster would consist of the other guys fighting minions while you two go "Scorching Ray!" and "Magic Missile!" at each other. Or why that would be particularly interesting for you.

[sambouchah]

I think he was referring to the fact that any Wizard with his salt is not just going to go, "Okay, Spell Fisticuffs, NOW!" and fight you. You won't even see the wizard. You'll just run into all the **** he sends at you and Arcane Doom he levels on you from miles (If not Planes) away.

Unless it's low level. In which case it's really just the balance that is throwing off the DM. So you probably weren't going to run into one at level 1 or 2 because even at level 1/2... a wizard can just DECIMATE an encounter.

Unless you get lazy. Be a dumbass. And say things like "you're ambushed by 3 level 1 wizards. Each wizard has only one spell prepared, magic missile."

Which makes no sense because no first level wizard would go into battle like that. They'd have Color Spray, or Charm Person, or Sleep, etc.

And honestly if all the mage you are fighting does is throw out two Fireballs, a few Acid Arrows, and a few Magic Missiles (So it doesn't horribly unbalance the ONLY encounter the enemy has to account for, against the PCs, so spell mongering doesn't come into play, you have to kinda choose a suboptimal evocation mage)... it's not that interesting. I mean colorwise, it's cool. Having fireballs, Lightning Bolts, etc, going on are great Special Effects and Flavor for a scene... but not mechanically interesting. And generally kinda weak.

If he plays his enemy wizards intelligently? You're not going to have much of a chance. Particularly with Tactical Supremacy as NPCs often have. That's why you typically don't see a lot of Mage/Cleric enemies. And when you do they are usually bosses.

We're all coming up on seventh level in our main campaign. And in our other campaign I did manage to swipe a staff of Healing off of a cleric in a city(by murdering him) but that wasn't the campaign that I would like to fight casters in.

And on top of it in the other campaign we have an Artificer(wizard with all kinds of crafts because we didn't know about the real class. we are dumbasses) a ranger and a cleric.

And I am one of the few in my group who grasps Psionics and magick fully. Everyone else's understanding is relatively low. They make mages who use fog cloud and the blind fighting feat til level 20, which gets old fast.

[Slipperychicken]

Why is it boring to play a caster if you aren't directly combating other spellcasters?

Because you basically auto-win against level-appropriate beatsticks if you know what you're doing.

[Leon]

None of the DMs I know make spellcasters villains or allow us to fight them at all. It makes my role as the caster/manifester utterly boring. How can I convince a DM to throw in some casters instead of just dead magic zones(which neither understands)?

Thanks, Sam

You don't, you let the DMs run what they want as a game and adapt to it.
That you are a Caster/Manifester is not dependent on having a Caster Foe.

[Amphetryon]

Because you basically auto-win against level-appropriate beatsticks if you know what you're doing.

There are all sorts of things to do with casters - and other enemies, for that matter - besides direct confrontation that do not create an auto-win scenario, in my experience.

[ArcturusV]

That and if you did get a spellcaster enemy? It's not going to duel you. What typically happens is instead of an arcane duel or the like... the enemy spellcaster just messes up as much of the party as possible and turns the odds from an even fight, to something like one wizard (minus some spells) and all his allies, against the few who made their checks.

[Ernir]

Could be worse. You could be playing a Spellthief. :smalltongue:

[sambouchah]

You don't, you let the DMs run what they want as a game and adapt to it.
That you are a Caster/Manifester is not dependent on having a Caster Foe.

I understand it's not dependent on caster foes but when all we fight is human warriors and the very occasional dragon or troll things get boring and magic becomes a non essential in a fight. At this point my Wizards and clerics have become such Swordsman who have the option of spellslinging if only it is desperately needed. And on top of our only encountering bandits and soldiers we encounter friendly Maguses on a very VERY regular basis. Which makes me feel that there are only Good aligned casters in the world. And that is unrealistic.

An aberration or two would make it more than bearable and add something cool to the game.

[sambouchah]

Could be worse. You could be playing a Spellthief. :smalltongue:

Just saw this! Caleb(our current main DM) doesn't allow anything outside PHB for starting characters:smallfrown: And Chuck(our alt. DM, and the fun one to be honest) allows anything as long as there is no LA above +1, but doesn't appreciate anyone's choices and makes a campaign that makes our class features useless.

[Krobar]

A smart wizard is a very formidable enemy. He'll research you first, figure out your strengths and weaknesses, and fully exploit them at the worst possible moment.

Be careful what you ask for - you just might get it.

[sambouchah]

A smart wizard is a very formidable enemy. He'll research you first, figure out your strengths and weaknesses, and fully exploit them at the worst possible moment.

Be careful what you ask for - you just might get it.

Hell I'd love that!

[Last Laugh]

And on top of our only encountering bandits and soldiers we encounter friendly Maguses on a very VERY regular basis. Which makes me feel that there are only Good aligned casters in the world. And that is unrealistic.

You could become the first evil wizard, problem solved!

[Eric Scott]

If you really want to fight casters and you only encounter friendly mages, turn Evil and then attack them... If they want to live they will have to fight back.

[enderlord99]

Just saw this! Caleb(our current main DM) doesn't allow anything outside PHB for starting characters:smallfrown: And Chuck(our alt. DM, and the fun one to be honest) allows anything as long as there is no LA above +1, but doesn't appreciate anyone's choices and makes a campaign that makes our class features useless.

Try... play-by-post..?

[White_Drake]

Have you considered asking your DM, rather than seeking commiseration from a random group of people on the Internet?

[Squirrel_Dude]

I think he was referring to the fact that any Wizard with his salt is not just going to go, "Okay, Spell Fisticuffs, NOW!" and fight you. You won't even see the wizard. You'll just run into all the **** he sends at you and Arcane Doom he levels on you from miles (If not Planes) away.

Unless it's low level. In which case it's really just the balance that is throwing off the DM. So you probably weren't going to run into one at level 1 or 2 because even at level 1/2... a wizard can just DECIMATE an encounter.

Unless you get lazy. Be a dumbass. And say things like "you're ambushed by 3 level 1 wizards. Each wizard has only one spell prepared, magic missile."
Do they leap out of the bushes wielding quarterstaves?


On Topic: rofflestomp opponents until he is forced to bring out bigger guns?

[Answerer]

Just saw this! Caleb(our current main DM) doesn't allow anything outside PHB for starting characters:smallfrown: And Chuck(our alt. DM, and the fun one to be honest) allows anything as long as there is no LA above +1, but doesn't appreciate anyone's choices and makes a campaign that makes our class features useless.
You have terrible DMs; I'd sooner not play than play with either. Wouldn't even be a hard choice.


You don't, you let the DMs run what they want as a game and adapt to it.
Wow, that- to be polite, I could not disagree more vehemently nor more strongly recommend anyone and everyone to not follow that advice.

[Seharvepernfan]

Wow, that- to be polite, I could not disagree more vehemently nor more strongly recommend anyone and everyone to not follow that advice.

His tone does sound kinda like "You'll sit down, eat your brocolli, and like it!", but I can't say that I really disagree. Which is more reasonable:

1. The DM adapting his entire prepared world/campaign/rules/whatever around what one player (arbitrarily or not) decides he'd like to play.

Or...

2. The player adapting his character concept/playstyle to what the DM offers.

I'm not saying that a DM should never bend, but it's so much more reasonable for the player to bend to the DM than the other way around.

I have to agree with Leon here. It's like places where pedestrians have right of way: it's retarded. A driver has to pay attention to all kinds of stuff; speed/road conditions/precipitation/all the various road signs, turns, other cars, and so on, in addition to all the pedestrians, and has to stop his multi-thousand pound vehicle moving at many times walking-speed, whereas a pedestrian can just stop walking and wait for the car to go by.

[Sith_Happens]

occasional dragon or troll

I suppose it's too much to assume that your DMs know to not play a dragon like a troll? Because a dragon can very much be a worthy fight for a caster if it fights smart.

[ArcturusV]

Heck, if the Dragon is played like it has the... 15.. 18... 21 Intelligence, etc, it has... it should just up and mess up any spellcaster. I mean they cast spells as a Sorcerer. Take a few instances of Dispel Magic. Burn out the wizard of useful spells or disenchant useful transmutations and such like Fly. Then all the Dragon has to do is stay in the air, laugh as the Ranger does 1d8 +3 damage or so and it's meanwhile breath weaponing you for a lot more. But most people don't do stuff like that. Dragons get dumbed down... a lot. To the point where people see fighting them as routine rather than the death challenge it should be.

[Flickerdart]

Take a few instances of Dispel Magic.
Waste of spells. Dragon caster levels are so ridiculously low that even if they had the slots to spare, the chance of successful dispel would be almost nil.

Dragon spells should always be used to buff or BFC. For directly offensive action, you have the rest of the dragon.

[hoverfrog]

My players (all first) just got to "fight" a first level sorcerer and his warrior cronies. They saw through his Change Self deception and didn't attack him directly so his Shield was useless. As DM I got to play this frightening giant of a man who ordered the party to surrender (in a bit of a squeaky voice for his size) and then to flee before his might. He had two spells that were any use and a reasonable Bluff skill. Clever role play and some good Sense Motive rolls let the party calm the situation down and some risky charging into the sorcerer's home by a party rogue saved the day.

In a few levels the party might face wizards and sorcerers with more powerful spells at their disposal. All will give me, the DM, a chance to role play and impress. I'm not going to "win" any encounters though I may defeat the party a few times. The point is I have fun with my NPCs and a DM who refuses to use spellcasters is missing out on part of the fun.

How do you fix this?

I'd suggest for new PCs to include rich back stories involving mages and other spell casters so as to encourage the DM to introduce them. Perhaps the new Bard made an enemy of an order of arcane casters or the Barbarian has angered the local Druid circle.

How about starting your own wizard guild or holy order? Affiliations are good like that. Some of the recruits will assuredly turn out bad and you'll have to hunt them down to let them form rival groups.

[Darius Kane]

Re-roll character.
Alternatively quit the group.

[Xeno426]

Unless you get lazy. Be a dumbass. And say things like "you're ambushed by 3 level 1 wizards. Each wizard has only one spell prepared, magic missile."

Which makes no sense because no first level wizard would go into battle like that. They'd have Color Spray, or Charm Person, or Sleep, etc.

Somebody's been watching "Counter Monkey". :smallbiggrin:

Wizards and the like are best as reoccurring bosses; they have the means to make an escape and the nature of their abilities mean they don't generally mix it up directly with the enemy.

Let an enemy like that get away a few times and when the party finally kills the bugger it's going to be extremely satisfying.

For everyday fire support, alchemists (if you're playing PF) are a good substitute, I think.

[Shining Wrath]

Ask your lazy DM's why they have never read Robert Howard or Lovecraft, where good guys dealing with nasty evil spellcasters is par for the course.

[Eldariel]

This sounds like a normal problem with new DMs who use by-the-book monsters and just create encounters as a sort of on-the-spot with no environmental factors taken into account and enemies are always naked with no equipment and pre-cast magicks.

It should change as they get more experienced. You could also help them along, maybe even DM a game yourself with a bit more advanced encounter design just to give them an idea of what's going on. Or point them towards some internet resources or any such.


Of course, worst case scenario they're simply not putting any hours into the campaign design outside the game sessions themselves in which case the easiest way to get a reasonable experience is probably asking them to run a module. Which might also serve as at least an introduction to the finer aspects of designing D&D campaigns; what they could be doing.

[Leon]

Wow, that- to be polite, I could not disagree more vehemently nor more strongly recommend anyone and everyone to not follow that advice.

That's your choice then - much as staying with a game that is not suiting your needs is. Everyone else can make up their own minds.

[beforemath]

It's really hard to include the right amount of stupid with your NPC spellcasters so they don't kill your party right out (or kill the party's good time, at least). It's indimidating, especially to a novice DM.

An intelligent caster is probably going to start combat on his own terms (which can include the Fly and/or Invisibility spell). Combine that with the maximum range of some of his spells (plus a 3000 gp Extend Spell rod), and you've got a group of annoyed PCs.


Long range (400' + 40'/level):

Silent Image (1)
Minor Image (2)
Acid Arrow (2)
Pyrotechnics(2)
Sleet Storm (3)
Fireball (3)
Major Image (3)

Snapdragon Fireworks (1)
Ash Storm (3)


Medium range (100' + 10'/level):

Magic Missile (1)
Fog Cloud (2)
Glitterdust (2)
Web (2)
Daze Monster (2)
Flaming Sphere (2)
Hypnotic Pattern (2)
Blindness/Deafness (2)
Scare (2)
(Spectral Hand (2))
Dispel Magic (2)
Stinking Cloud (3)
Hold Person (3)

Stone Call(2)
Create Pit (2)
Spiked Pit (3)
Aqueous Orb (3)

Boiling Blood (2)
Steal Voice (2)
Distracting Cacophony (3)
Marionette Possession (3)
Vision of Hell (3)

Spontaneous Immolation (2)


Also, there are a lot of spells that hurt PCs more than NPCs. For example, a wand of Blindness/Deafness means a lot more in an NPC Rogue's hands than a PC's.

On the other side of the encounter, a Pathfinder arcane caster has around 33-39 hp at level 7. A D&D caster has fewer. Your caster villain can really die in a hurry if you err on the side of "stupid."


It takes a lot of learning to hit that sweet spot inbetween boring and deadly, and if you want your DM's to get there, you're probably going to have to sit them down and spend some time educating them on strategy. If they're not interested in learning, then the best you can do is start using your caster smarts and hope they emulate you.

[Slipperychicken]

A driver has to pay attention to all kinds of stuff; speed/road conditions/precipitation/all the various road signs, turns, other cars, and so on, in addition to all the pedestrians, and has to stop his multi-thousand pound vehicle moving at many times walking-speed, whereas a pedestrian can just stop walking and wait for the car to go by.

Well, pedestrians don't usually need to worry about accidentally slaughtering innocents when going for a stroll. And what, was your car not equipped with break pedals? If you couldn't stop your vehicle, I suspect you'd have bigger problems than pedestrians getting in your way. As a guy who needs to cross several busy streets a day, right-of-way is a godsend; if drivers didn't stop to let me by, I'd probably be waiting around for 15 minutes at a time for all the cars to zip through.

[Novawurmson]

This sounds like a normal problem with new DMs who use by-the-book monsters and just create encounters as a sort of on-the-spot with no environmental factors taken into account and enemies are always naked with no equipment and pre-cast magicks.

It should change as they get more experienced. You could also help them along, maybe even DM a game yourself with a bit more advanced encounter design just to give them an idea of what's going on. Or point them towards some internet resources or any such.


Of course, worst case scenario they're simply not putting any hours into the campaign design outside the game sessions themselves in which case the easiest way to get a reasonable experience is probably asking them to run a module. Which might also serve as at least an introduction to the finer aspects of designing D&D campaigns; what they could be doing.

This is exactly what I came here to say. I'm assuming your DM is a new DM? When you're a new DM, it's overwhelming: Even if you're only using the PHB, that's 11 classes to keep track, plus a boatload of feats, skills, items, and especially spells.

Not sure for 3.5, but the PF core rule book seems like it's about 30% spells. It's much quicker easier to make a Fighter with Toughness and Weapon Focus than to read over the 41 level one spells in the phb to cobble together a Wizard. While Wizards have one of the highest optimization ceilings, they also have one of the lowest optimization floors (yeah, Fireball! Who needs a weird spell like Haste?). Then you get to things like caster level, duration, casting time, HD restrictions, and lots of other things that beginning DMs (like I once was) are often completely clueless about, and it just seems like a much better cost/benefit ratio to pull a monster from the MM than to try to sort through so much.

Remember that feeling the first few times you played 3.5? My second character ever was a half-elf monk. The optimizer in me cringes now, but the idea that I could punch someone in the face by rolling a dice was magical to me. The same thing happens as a beginning DM: Just being able to say "A bandit attacks!" and it happens (at least in the minds of your players) is an incredible novelty. From then, you can move on into "A troll attacks!" to "A troll appears, but it doesn't attack - it wants help with the evil wizard who stole her children!" to "The world waits with bated breath as the troll armada sails against the massed forces of the necromancer Kar'Thun, whose twisted experiments on the young of the world to harvest soul energy have granted him power that will take the greatest of heroes to fight!"

[Answerer]

Well, pedestrians don't usually need to worry about accidentally slaughtering innocents when going for a stroll. And what, was your car not equipped with break pedals? If you couldn't stop your vehicle, I suspect you'd have bigger problems than pedestrians getting in your way. As a guy who needs to cross several busy streets a day, right-of-way is a godsend; if drivers didn't stop to let me by, I'd probably be waiting around for 15 minutes at a time for all the cars to zip through.
Yeah, ultimately I felt I didn't need to respond because I felt he basically made my argument for me.

[Seharvepernfan]

Well, pedestrians don't usually need to worry about accidentally slaughtering innocents when going for a stroll. And what, was your car not equipped with break pedals? If you couldn't stop your vehicle, I suspect you'd have bigger problems than pedestrians getting in your way. As a guy who needs to cross several busy streets a day, right-of-way is a godsend; if drivers didn't stop to let me by, I'd probably be waiting around for 15 minutes at a time for all the cars to zip through.

Well, my reply to that is; "Boo-hoo."

[TuggyNE]

Well, my reply to that is; "Boo-hoo."

That's why we have traffic laws instead of letting everyone do their own thing. :smalltongue:

[Guizonde]

warning, i haven't read beyond the 3rd post:

at the op: want my dm? all we get are casters! and to make matters worse, i'm banned from playing magebanes (and other specialist antimagic classes)... something about me hating magic, and my dm being a magic-lover. but hey, he's the dm, and he's a stickler for concentration checks, so yelling insults at the enemy caster does distract him-her-it. it works sometimes.

i would recommend you look into the guides posted here into turning your caster into the funnest class you can play, or you could always ask to reroll (i don't recommend that). have you tried asking your dm why you don't get casters as enemies? i know i don't like throwing casters at my players because i'm a newbie dm and i don't know how to build a good caster. it could be due to inexperience

[DigoDragon]

A smart wizard is a very formidable enemy. He'll research you first, figure out your strengths and weaknesses, and fully exploit them at the worst possible moment.

Doesn't have to be a wizard. Any smart enemy will research the party first and exploit weaknesses. There's nothing more satisfying as a DM than having a human fighter BBEG take down both veteran wizards in the party. :smallbiggrin:


As for not having enemy spellcasters, see if the DMs are just not comfortable with running NPC spellcasters. Maybe they just need a little support to grasp the basic design of one. Help them put an evil wizard together and then let them behind the wheel between sessions to practice with you.

This was the situation with our current GM running a Shadowrun game. As the party spellcaster, I noticed there weren't any enemy casters getting sent our way, so I helped him get aquainted with magic in Shadowrun. After a few practice sessions between the actual games, he's not doing to bad, occasionally pitting a decent caster against the party.

[Story]

Remember that feeling the first few times you played 3.5? My second character ever was a half-elf monk. The optimizer in me cringes now, but the idea that I could punch someone in the face by rolling a dice was magical to me.

I can't really say I do, since I read so much about D&D online before playing it (especially on these forums) and my first character is an optimized Wizard. But I do still have trouble preparing spells sometimes due to a lack of practical experience (fortunately Glitterdust and Web work on almost everything).

[Krobar]

Doesn't have to be a wizard. Any smart enemy will research the party first and exploit weaknesses. There's nothing more satisfying as a DM than having a human fighter BBEG take down both veteran wizards in the party. :smallbiggrin:


As for not having enemy spellcasters, see if the DMs are just not comfortable with running NPC spellcasters. Maybe they just need a little support to grasp the basic design of one. Help them put an evil wizard together and then let them behind the wheel between sessions to practice with you.

This was the situation with our current GM running a Shadowrun game. As the party spellcaster, I noticed there weren't any enemy casters getting sent our way, so I helped him get aquainted with magic in Shadowrun. After a few practice sessions between the actual games, he's not doing to bad, occasionally pitting a decent caster against the party.

True. But casters make it easy. I once ran a 2nd edition game where an enemy wizard approached the party's Leomund's Secure Shelter in the middle of the night, used a wall of force to seal the door, and started throwing fireballs (wand) down the chimney until the screaming stopped. Then he hit them with a Cloudkill too, just for good measure.

The party averaged 15th level, and the enemy wizard was 10th level and all by himself.

It's amazing how badly you can mess up a party by waiting until most of them are asleep, and think they're safe.

[Story]

Shouldn't the first Fireball have at least woken them up? I don't know about 2nd ed, but 15th level casters should have at least some spells left, even at the end of the day.

[Krobar]

Shouldn't the first Fireball have at least woken them up? I don't know about 2nd ed, but 15th level casters should have at least some spells left, even at the end of the day.

It did wake them up. But the STONE BUILDING was sealed shut with a Wall of Force. The spellcasters were out of their higher level spells, and didn't have teleport or blink available, and they were taking damage anyway (interfering with spellcasting worked differently in 2nd edition-it was much easier to disrupt casters back then).

They ticked off a smart wizard, who sent lots of things after them and depleted their spells for the day, then finished them off in the middle of the night.

Don't feel bad for the party though. They had it coming. Lol.

[Pandoras Folly]

My buddy in nola is evil. I asked him what his main enemy was going to be in his next campaign.......Tucker's Kobols with Wizards.

[Story]

Tucker's Kobolds are easy for a prepared mid level party. It's only a trap for players used to "I charge into the room and hit everyone with my sword". Of course, adding casters to the mix is nasty if they're optimized or played intelligently.