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Jarl
2006-11-08, 06:38 PM
Do identical twins have identical starting ability scores?

-Aside from those increased every fourth level (which I assume represent the character's individual life experiences).

NullAshton
2006-11-08, 06:49 PM
By RAW, both of them would roll 3d6 to find their starting ability scores.

silentknight
2006-11-08, 06:52 PM
I am not aware of any rule that says such a thing, but I would assume that identical twins would have the same stats. Of course, fraternal twins could be different enough to have different stats. Just look at Raistlin and Caramon.

Sugar5
2006-11-08, 06:56 PM
As I am a twin I would say NO!!!!!!!

Me and my brother when we were born weighed a difference of 2 pounds witch is alot. Now we have nothing in common , nothing at all. Im good at math and science and sports and that type of stuff while hes good at reading, english and spelling and not at all good at sports. Now a days i weigh 135 while he weighs like 175-180.

2006-11-08, 06:56 PM
Well, nature versus nurture and all that (and there are better people on this board than me to discuss that), so I'd say they wouldn't necessarily be identical. But they'd probably be pretty close.

NullAshton
2006-11-08, 07:02 PM
*stabs whoever made that stupid nature versus nurture thing. What the crud does that mean anyway?*

Jarl
2006-11-08, 07:02 PM
By RAW, both of them would roll 3d6 to find their starting ability score.

It's an NPC twin to a PC.

-OR IS IT?! (it is)

Thray
2006-11-08, 07:11 PM
I don't think that your starting ability scores are the ones you have at birth. It doesn't really seem like a person's str/con/int are determined so completely right when you're born, unless you're counting the +1/4 levels as a MAJOR difference.

2006-11-08, 07:17 PM
I think the best way to do it in-game is to use the same array of stats, but not necessarily in the same places. The idea being, sort of, that the twin has the same amount of "vital energy" or whatever as the PC, but not necessarily the same strengths and weaknesses.

Just Alex
2006-11-08, 07:21 PM
*stabs whoever made that stupid nature versus nurture thing. What the crud does that mean anyway?*

I think it was Skinner.

oriong
2006-11-08, 07:35 PM
Unless the twins did pretty much the exact same things while growing up (including having the same classes and so on) then there is no reason they should have the same ability scores. You could theoretically argue that Intelligence might be identical (you would be wrong I'm sure), but every other ability score is way too variable. There are plenty of ways to explain why the twins have different scores too. Maybe one twin got sick in youth and was constantly bedridden leaving him shaky, weak, and in poor health (giving him lower strength con and dexterity than his twin). At best you could argue that identical conditions lead to identical scores.

Sactheminions
2006-11-08, 07:45 PM
Should be similar at birth if not necessarily identical. By normal PC starting age, I wouldn't think being twins would mean much to anything except an INT score.

Thomas
2006-11-08, 08:19 PM
Well, nature versus nurture and all that (and there are better people on this board than me to discuss that), so I'd say they wouldn't necessarily be identical. But they'd probably be pretty close.

That's kinda the point. Research in identical twins who've grown up apart from each other often turns up bizarre similarities (such as spouses' names) that seem to speak for nature over nurture. Of course, it also involves notorious fabrication of results, so...

*stabs whoever made that stupid nature versus nurture thing. What the crud does that mean anyway?*

It's a pretty basic concept of developmental psychology, called precisely that in several textbooks? It refers to the contentious issue of whether our natures and abilities are determined more by nature (genetics) or nurture (upbringing and environment).

(It's nurture. Suck on it, "Evil Gene.")

And no, not even the Int score would necessarily be similar. "Intelligence" is determined largely by upbringing. Do you really think the reason african-american students scored lower on IQ tests was genetic stupidity?

Skinner was a behaviorist. I really doubt he paid any attention to nature. His stance was that if you give him a kid, he could make them into a doctor in adulthood without fail. (Don't do it. His son killed himself.) Francis Galton said "nature versus nurture" first, probably.

Gerrtt
2006-11-08, 08:21 PM
As the son of a twin, I can vouch for them being very different in old age.

My mother and her sister are identical twins. They both ended up as teachers too, but my aunt weighs about 180 pounds and my mom weighs about 145 pounds. Also, my aunt suffers from extreme depression and my mom, while also suffering from depression, only has a little (to the extent where she really doesn't have many problems). My aunt though, is a lot less flighty than my mother (who I am not afraid to say is very, very blonde). Where my mom is more interested in early childrens education, my aunt is interested in biology and physics, and teaches (or rather, taught, before her depression became too severe for her to work) at the high school level in both subjects.

I'd say that just because they are twins that they dont have the same stats at all. In fact, most twins I know are pretty different physically. There's usually a taller one. It has to do with consumption of resources while in the womb the consequences of it are a body conditioned for a certain degree of development.

Signmaker
2006-11-08, 08:23 PM
No.

People live their lives they way they want to. One might be an athlete, the other might not be. They might get a +2 on disguise checks impersonating the other, but I don't they the scores should be the same.

2006-11-08, 08:35 PM
Skinner was a behaviorist. I really doubt he paid any attention to nature. His stance was that if you give him a kid, he could make them into a doctor in adulthood without fail. (Don't do it. His son killed himself.)

At least the whole "daughter in a box" thing wasn't really true. Although I really wish it were. So beautiful!

Jack Mann
2006-11-08, 09:31 PM
Skinner, so far as I know, never had a son. It was his daughter who supposedly killed herself (she didn't). He also never made that claim about making a baby into a doctor.

Dr. John B. Watson is the behavioralist you're thinking of.

Tallis
2006-11-08, 10:12 PM
I've known a few sets of identicle twins and they were all different from their twins. I would say that intelligence was the most noticeable difference for most of them.

2006-11-08, 11:56 PM
It's a pretty basic concept of developmental psychology, called precisely that in several textbooks? It refers to the contentious issue of whether our natures and abilities are determined more by nature (genetics) or nurture (upbringing and environment).

(It's nurture. Suck on it, "Evil Gene.")

Well, that all depends.

Consider the following scenario: A mad scientist who wants to determine the precise degree of impact that genetics has on predisposition kidnaps two newborn boys and raises each of them in a barrel, each with the exact same amount and same type of limited contact with him. Now, up until the authorities track him down, the two boys will have exactly the same environment, but different genetics. Obviously, then, any differences between the two will be entirely due to genetics (or chance).

On the other hand, we can consider a scenario in which two identical twins are separated at birth and raised in different households. In this case, the twins have the same genetics (and developed in the same uterine environment, which is also significant) so obviously any differences between the two of them will be entirely due to environment (or chance).

So, in short: The degrees to which heredity and enviornment account for the differences between individials depends on the degrees to which the heredities and environments of the individuals in question differ. Duh, frankly.

Next, consider: Might individuals with different genes react differently to the same environment? Or to put it another way, will the same enviornment sometimes have different impacts on individuals with different genotypes? I think the answer is fairly obviously yes.

In a somewhat similar vein, might the same genes be expressed in different ways in different environments? Once again, I think the answer is clearly yes.

Every person is the product of heredity and environment. For the genes to do anything, they must have an environment to express themselves in. For environment to have an impact, there must first be something for it to impact. How genes are expressed depends on environment, and what impact environment has depends on what genotype it's acting on! It's necessarily a metter of the interplay between nature and nurture.

Or, as I once saw it put: Asking whether our personal characteristics are due more to heredity or environment is like asking whether a rectangle's area is due more to its height or its width.

Fax Celestis
2006-11-09, 12:04 AM
In short, it is not Nature Vs. Nurture, but instead Nature & Nurture.

oriong
2006-11-09, 12:24 AM
I don't think any worthwhile behavioral psychologist ever claims otherwise, the arguement is really over which one is more important, and to what degree one can overcome the other.

For instance, can any child, no matter their genetics be raised in such a way as to excel?

Or, can a child with superior (in theory) genetics suceed despite poor upbringing?

TheOOB
2006-11-09, 12:35 AM
I think that the twins would likely have similar ability score, but not identical unless there are very very young (before much individuality is expressed) or pure random chance.

For example, if one twin naturally has a great con score, the other likely has at least a good one.

Thray
2006-11-09, 02:23 AM
I don't think any worthwhile behavioral psychologist ever claims otherwise, the arguement is really over which one is more important, and to what degree one can overcome the other.

For instance, can any child, no matter their genetics be raised in such a way as to excel?

Or, can a child with superior (in theory) genetics suceed despite poor upbringing?

Consider that children with severe brain damage have been trained to the point where they can function normally, or in some extreme cases, where one person whose brain scans made a doctor believe said person was a vegetable, when in reality they were a neurosurgeon. I don't know about other stats, but intelligence is pretty darn malleable; if a child is trained to think from a very young age.

Pester
2006-11-09, 10:33 AM
Speaking of brain damage, Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) seems to assume that the scores would be the same under normal cirscumstances.

Grey Watcher
2006-11-09, 10:55 AM
I have to agree, the ability scores would be different. Remember, a 1st level Human is already at least 16 or 17 years old (depending on class), by 16 and 17, identitcal twins have evolved distinct sets of abilities. The only way they'd be similar would be if, as has already been mentioned, they had almost always had similar experiences, and even then, there's still likely to be some variant. (Sure they both enjoyed going hunting, but even by age 12, one was already distinctly clumsier than the other).

Telonius
2006-11-09, 11:24 AM
Even identical twins have epigenetic differences. Whenever cells divide, there can be very subtle changes to the genetic structure. And people's cells keep dividing throughout their lives to replace dead cells. The older twins get, the more pronounced these subtle differences can get. (Disclaimer: I work for a scientific journal that published an article on this).

Vital statistics like eye color, height, and hair color would probably be very similar. Not necessarily, though; I've known sets of identical twins where one is a few inches taller than the other. Weight would be very dependent on the individual twin's choices (do they exercise as much as the other? What's their diet like?).

Rex Idiotarum
2006-11-09, 03:25 PM
Let's put it this way, the great wizard Krandor and a monk Larainia hook up, nine months later twins are born. Sadly both Krandor and Larainia succumb to a horrible fate while home, but the kids remain fine. Upon discovery one is sent to his mother's monastery, the other is raised in his father's old Alma mater.

Francis spends his time in the monastery learning discipline and gaining physical stats and is know for his toughness, however he is very smart like his father. He is intrigued by magic, but since the monastery won't let him practice the Arcane arts, he instead tries to find ways to focus his ki in weird ways like spells. He is very comfortable in order and can't handle randomness. He is, like his mother, kind to most people.

Frank is known for his intelligence, but he also posses his mother's fortitude. He likes discipline, and doesn't like the chaos of Men, living ones at least. He seeks to raise armies of the undead. He is intrigued by the only people that seems to fit into his ideal of discipline, Monks. (The Paladins have been very snooty to Wizards) He, like his father, cares ultimatly about himself and his goals over anything else.

You would get limited abilities because of your heritage, (put +2 to an ability than you would otherwise), the rest should be by work. in this example, array their stats as (10,10,12,12,10,10)(apply the +2 bonuses from a point buy, or assign die to show this), then apply modifiers, Francis(14,14,16,12,12,8) his limited contact to people leaves him uncomfortable when talking to people. Frank has (8, 12, 14, 18, 12, 14) he let his body go, but due to his citylife he is much more comfortable when talking to people.
Does this sound good?

The White Knight
2006-11-09, 04:09 PM
At birth? You'd probably have an array of abysmal attribute scores, none of which would exceed 3 (although one could make an arguing case for intelligence and wisdom). Everything after that can be determined by how your youth plays out from there on.

Rex Idiotarum
2006-11-09, 10:27 PM
No, the original array would be applied if they were a completely average commoner. Strait tens except for their borniness.

KIDS
2006-11-10, 06:39 AM
The twins are inclined to have same or very similar ability scores, but not in any way bound to. Growing up, enviroment and a thousand other things have an effect on that. But I am (on one other board) playing a one of two twin sisters (bard & swashbuckler) and we have following stats:

8, 15, 8, 14, 10, 18
8, 17, 10, 14, 8, 16

So far it seems a good match.

Bob_the_Mighty
2007-04-16, 05:33 PM
As I am a twin I would say NO!!!!!!!

Me and my brother when we were born weighed a difference of 2 pounds witch is alot. Now we have nothing in common , nothing at all. Im good at math and science and sports and that type of stuff while hes good at reading, english and spelling and not at all good at sports. Now a days i weigh 135 while he weighs like 175-180.
But you two are fraternal twins, aren't you? Anyways, I'd think that identical twins would probably have identical stats when there young, but there'd probably enough change depending on lifestyle to have different stats even before the first character level.

Bob_the_Mighty
2007-04-16, 05:34 PM
As I am a twin I would say NO!!!!!!!

Me and my brother when we were born weighed a difference of 2 pounds witch is alot. Now we have nothing in common , nothing at all. Im good at math and science and sports and that type of stuff while hes good at reading, english and spelling and not at all good at sports. Now a days i weigh 135 while he weighs like 175-180.
But you two are fraternal twins, aren't you? Anyways, I'd think that identical twins would probably have identical stats when there young, but there'd probably enough change depending on lifestyle to have different stats even before the first character level.

Bob_the_Mighty
2007-04-16, 05:34 PM
As I am a twin I would say NO!!!!!!!

Me and my brother when we were born weighed a difference of 2 pounds witch is alot. Now we have nothing in common , nothing at all. Im good at math and science and sports and that type of stuff while hes good at reading, english and spelling and not at all good at sports. Now a days i weigh 135 while he weighs like 175-180.
But you two are fraternal twins, aren't you? Anyways, I'd think that identical twins would probably have identical stats when there young, but there'd probably enough change depending on lifestyle to have different stats even before the first character level.

Bob_the_Mighty
2007-04-16, 05:39 PM
As I am a twin I would say NO!!!!!!!

Me and my brother when we were born weighed a difference of 2 pounds witch is alot. Now we have nothing in common , nothing at all. Im good at math and science and sports and that type of stuff while hes good at reading, english and spelling and not at all good at sports. Now a days i weigh 135 while he weighs like 175-180.
But you two are fraternal twins, aren't you? Anyways, I'd think that identical twins would have similar scores while they're young, but that there would be significant change based on lifestyle even before a characters first character level.

asqwasqw
2007-04-16, 05:50 PM
I think they would have the same ability scores if they are identical twins, with only minor differences. If the total difference in ability scores is only 4 between races, then you should not have much difference (at most one or two) between identical twins. Fraternal, I have no clue.

Cocktail Umbrellas
2007-04-16, 06:21 PM
Nah... More fun if they're different.

In regards to the whole nature nurture "debate" in psychology, its generally accepted these days that there is no debate, each side contributes in its own way. Of course some aspects are more biological or environmental in nature than others, but because it is nearly impossible to look at either side by itself, there is no real point in trying to figure out the specific amounts that biology or upbringing contributes.

Aaaanywho... if you really wanted to have some fun, why not start them out with the same stats "at birth," seeing as they are identical, and figure out based on environment, so how they were brought up, if they were raised together etc. if they would retain their same stats. Perhaps if one became very ill while young they would have lower (or perhaps even higher) constitution. Perhaps one lived in poverty and didn't have access to books and has lower intelligence... Your call in the end really though ^_~ Have fun!

argentsaber
2007-04-17, 05:39 AM
Just to swing this back to DND twins... Caramon and Raistlin from dragonlance were twins... and while they did have a great many things in common, one could be reasonably certain that ability scores were not amongst them.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-17, 05:48 AM
As I am a twin I would say NO!!!!!!!

Me and my brother when we were born weighed a difference of 2 pounds witch is alot. Now we have nothing in common , nothing at all. Im good at math and science and sports and that type of stuff while hes good at reading, english and spelling and not at all good at sports. Now a days i weigh 135 while he weighs like 175-180.

Are you identical twins?

asqwasqw
2007-04-17, 12:09 PM
Just to swing this back to DND twins... Caramon and Raistlin from dragonlance were twins... and while they did have a great many things in common, one could be reasonably certain that ability scores were not amongst them.

I don't think they were identical twins...

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-17, 09:12 PM
Identical twins would probably have a similar array(Why does Francis have 2 more points than Frank?) to one another.

Note that so-called "time twins"(people born at pretty much identical times of year, month, day) have eerily similar experiences throughout their lives, oftentimes moreso than genetic twins(who would necessarily be born at slightly separated times), up to and including date of death.

Yvian
2007-04-17, 09:21 PM
I would throw my vote that they would be a correlation between the two. I good example would be constitution, which in my mind is correlated to body type. One twin is not going to be small and frail while the other is large and hardy. Genetics do play a role.

The Minnesota Twins Family study has found some weird correlations between twins separated at birth. For example, they tend to belong the same political party. So being a democrat / republican is not strictly nurture but has a nature component to it. Just plain weird.