Hiding: how DOES it work?

[TuggyNE]

Normally, I like to think I have a fairly solid grasp of not only the literal rules, but how to use them sensibly — at least in Core.

Unfortunately, my understanding of the Hide rules appears to be somehow lacking, and every time I think I might have it, another mention crops up in Simple Q&A or somewhere else, and I realize I still don't quite seem to get it.

So, scenarios:

You are quietly sitting in a tree with branches and what-not around you, getting ready to make a nice Plunging Shot at a hapless target 65' away. You wish to remain unseen to avoid return fire. How many attacks can you make in a full-round action, assuming BAB 6 and Rapid Shot, and what checks do you roll at what penalties, if any?
Hypothesis A: 1 attack, 1 Hide check at -20.
Hypothesis B: 3 attacks, 3 Hide checks at -20.



Your quest for stabbity death has led you to a 20' town wall at night with guards at intervals. Unfortunately, there's about 30 feet of open space between the nearest bush and the foot of the wall, and there's a gibbous moon. What checks must you make, and what penalties, assuming a base movement of 30'?
Hypothesis A: Hide as normal to get to the bush, Hide -5 to get to the wall in a single move action, Hide as normal while climbing, Climb DC 25.
Hypothesis B: Can't be done without special abilities.



Seeking the ultimate in cheap thrills, you make your way into the Duke's castle, and there cosh him repeatedly from ambush. How can this be?
Hypothesis A: Hide as normal to get in ambush position, Hide -20 after each non-lethal sneak attack.
Hypothesis B: Can't be done without special abilities.



Low on health and short on sense, you endeavor to flee the Duke's infuriated guards. "Look! An obvious distraction!" you shout, and slip into a side passageway when the clods turn their heads. How long does this take?
Hypothesis: A standard action and a move action.


Special bonus: what penalty do you take if using Travel Devotion to move up to your speed as a swift action while Hiding?

Explain, if possible, the rules basis for these, why a given interpretation is the only workable one, and the reason this makes sense (or doesn't). Use pictures if necessary. :smallwink:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Normally, I like to think I have a fairly solid grasp of not only the literal rules, but how to use them sensibly — at least in Core.

Unfortunately, my understanding of the Hide rules appears to be somehow lacking, and every time I think I might have it, another mention crops up in Simple Q&A or somewhere else, and I realize I still don't quite seem to get it.

So, scenarios:

You are quietly sitting in a tree with branches and what-not around you, getting ready to make a nice Plunging Shot at a hapless target 65' away. You wish to remain unseen to avoid return fire. How many attacks can you make in a full-round action, assuming BAB 6 and Rapid Shot, and what checks do you roll at what penalties, if any?
Hypothesis A: 1 attack, 1 Hide check at -20.
Hypothesis B: 3 attacks, 3 Hide checks at -20.Hypothesis A is correct. The situation couldn't be construed as anything other than sniping, the rules for which clearly state that you can make one ranged attack then hide as a move action.




Your quest for stabbity death has led you to a 20' town wall at night with guards at intervals. Unfortunately, there's about 30 feet of open space between the nearest bush and the foot of the wall, and there's a gibbous moon. What checks must you make, and what penalties, assuming a base movement of 30'?
Hypothesis A: Hide as normal to get to the bush, Hide -5 to get to the wall in a single move action, Hide as normal while climbing, Climb DC 25.
Hypothesis B: Can't be done without special abilities. Neither is entirely correct. You would take a net -35 penalty; -5 for moving more than half your speed, and -5 for each 5 feet of open ground per the hide expansion in CAd on page 101; if the DM rules the gibous moon is bright enough to afford no concealment on that open ground. If the DM rules that the moon is dim enough that concealment is maintained due to the area being bathed in shadowy illumination, then it's only -5.

Presuming that the wall offers cover from the watchers above, you don't need to hide at all until you approach the top and move from total concealment to concealment. Then it would be made with no penalty unless you're doing some serious quick-climbing. The lack of concealment relative to the ground outside the wall makes it impossible to hide from anyone that might see you from below, unless the gibous moon only offers shadowy illumination.




Seeking the ultimate in cheap thrills, you make your way into the Duke's castle, and there cosh him repeatedly from ambush. How can this be?
Hypothesis A: Hide as normal to get in ambush position, Hide -20 after each non-lethal sneak attack.
Hypothesis B: Can't be done without special abilities. You must begin and end your turn with concealment to remain hidden. If the duke is adjacent to where you're concealed, you can make each attack at a -20 penalty to avoid anyone nearby spotting you as you brain him. The duke himself automatically discerns your location unless you have HiPS.

If the duke is not within reach of your hiding spot, you'll need some way of moving before and after the attack and you'll take the -5 per 5ft of open ground you have to cover to avoid being seen by bystanders but the duke himself will have been observing you from the moment he was struck and will know exactly where you are unless you have HiPS. Without HiPS, only total concealment during the entire turn can protect you from being spotted by the duke.




Low on health and short on sense, you endeavor to flee the Duke's infuriated guards. "Look! An obvious distraction!" you shout, and slip into a side passageway when the clods turn their heads. How long does this take?
Hypothesis: A standard action and a move action.This is correct.



Special bonus: what penalty do you take if using Travel Devotion to move up to your speed as a swift action while Hiding? Hiding while moving is part of the action of moving. It functions in the same manner regardless of whether that movement is a result of a full-round, standard, move, swift, or immediate action.


Explain, if possible, the rules basis for these, why a given interpretation is the only workable one, and the reason this makes sense (or doesn't). Use pictures if necessary. :smallwink:

I can clarify if any of these don't make sense.

Remember that being hidden is relative. If someone is observing you, you can't hide from that character but you can still hide from any other character that isn't. If being plainly visible to any single observer made hiding impossible, CAd's rules for hiding in a crowd simply couldn't function at all since you're always in someone's field of vision.

[ericgrau]

1. A
2. B
3. A, if you have a ranged weapon. Otherwise B. A melee weapon requires hide in plain sight, and often spring attack, so you can return to hiding.
4. Yeup

There were similar FAQ examples and snipe is also an example. All involve attacking then blowing a move action to hide at a -20.

Triggers required to hide:
(a) you must have partial cover or partial concealment
(b) you must not be observed during the attempt
(c) it must be done as part of movement
Various special abilities negate (a) and/or (b), but usually not (c).

Conceptual explanation:
(a) You must have something to hide behind. If you dash across a 30 foot corridor with no obstacles and someone is watching that corridor, you flat out fail to avoid detection. There's just no way. If you have total cover or total concealment then you don't need to roll any checks because you aren't seen anyway.
(b) If someone sees you jump behind a bush, where you have partial concealment, he easily knows exactly where you went. Because the bush is only partial concealment, he easily sees you as well. Nobody needs to roll a check to figure it out, you're caught. If, however, you can break his constant watch you can hide. For example getting temporary total cover or total concealment like a smoke stick or a wall. Or with a distraction (bluff check + a standard action, plus IMO a roleplayed explanation).
(c) Picture yourself standing still and not hidden. Then you don't move at all. Are you hidden now? Of course not. You must move. If you attack, you also are not hidden regardless of whether or not you used to be hidden. You must move again. Yes a swift action form of movement like travel devotion should work.

[Duke of Urrel]

I hate to muddy the waters even more, but here are my views.


You are quietly sitting in a tree with branches and what-not around you, getting ready to make a nice Plunging Shot at a hapless target 65' away. You wish to remain unseen to avoid return fire. How many attacks can you make in a full-round action, assuming BAB 6 and Rapid Shot, and what checks do you roll at what penalties, if any?

Hypothesis A: 1 attack, 1 Hide check at -20.

Hypothesis B: 3 attacks, 3 Hide checks at -20.

This may be a minority view, but I'll accept hypothesis B. As an alternative to sniping, you can make a Hide check at –20 every time you shoot, just before you make your attack roll. If your Hide check beats all Spot checks, you remain hidden after your attack and can attack again as an unseen attacker, that is, just as if you were invisible, adding the same +2 bonus and treating every target as flat-footed. As soon as an enemy's Spot check beats your Hide check, you lose the +2 bonus with respect to this enemy, but every enemy is still flat-footed until the first time he or she acts. Even if no enemy spots you, every one can estimate your location by tracing your ranged attacks back to their source, but this doesn't enable any enemy to shoot back.

When you snipe, you don't bother to hide while you attack, but you try to hide again after you attack. I allow you to do this only if it's possible for you to move five feet. The reason is that being seen while you attack enables every enemy to pinpoint your location, and if you hide again without moving, every enemy assumes that you're still where you were when you were last seen. This means that even if an enemy fails to spot you (despite the –20 penalty on your Hide check), he or she still pinpoints your location and can shoot back with only a 50% miss chance. To avoid this outcome, you must move at least five feet to hide. Fortunately, since you must take a move action to snipe anyway, it's not impossible to move five feet and hide in another part of the tree. Indeed, if you're really keen to remain hidden at the end of your turn, sniping is a better option than attacking three times and making an opposed Hide check at –20 each time.

There's even the "mixed option" of both hiding while you attack (once only) and moving to hide after you attack if your first Hide check fails, but both Hide checks are at –20.


Your quest for stabbity death has led you to a 20' town wall at night with guards at intervals. Unfortunately, there's about 30 feet of open space between the nearest bush and the foot of the wall, and there's a gibbous moon. What checks must you make, and what penalties, assuming a base movement of 30'?

Hypothesis A: Hide as normal to get to the bush, Hide -5 to get to the wall in a single move action, Hide as normal while climbing, Climb DC 25.

Hypothesis B: Can't be done without special abilities.

I belong to those DMs who rule that the light of a gibbous moon is too bright for you to hide in by itself. However, if you are lucky and your side of the town wall lies at least halfway in the shadow of the moonlight, you can try to hide while crossing the 30-foot no-man's land without any special ability. Even if the shadow reaches only 15 feet across the gap, you can make it that far in one move without adding a –5 penalty to your Hide check. (I allow you to hide while moving from one place of cover or concealment to another, even if you're completely exposed in between.) Then you can make a second Hide check to move the rest of the way. If you prefer, you can move the whole distance to the wall and accept the –5 penalty. I require you to move silently as well (whenever you're within 50 feet of someone who is being quiet), and your Move Silently checks add the same penalty as your Hide checks.

I agree with Kelb_Panthera that the wall is likely to provide you with total cover when you're still at the bottom, so that when you start climbing, you need only Move Silently skill, not Hide skill to avoid being noticed. However, at some point in your climb (maybe about halfway), you reduce your cover from total to normal, and at that point, you must make a Hide check. Probably, you need to do this when you're about halfway up. So I'd say that with two Climb checks, two Move Silently checks, and one Hide check, you reach the top of the wall.


Seeking the ultimate in cheap thrills, you make your way into the Duke's castle, and there cosh him repeatedly from ambush. How can this be?

Hypothesis A: Hide as normal to get in ambush position, Hide -20 after each non-lethal sneak attack.

Hypothesis B: Can't be done without special abilities.

This seems doable, even without special abilities, but it's not easy. Sneak-attacking doesn't require you to be unseen for as long as you attack; it only requires your victim to be flat-footed throughout. So you need only to remain hidden, beating every Spot check the duke makes, until you're close enough to charge at him, or until the unwary duke comes within reach of your mêlée attack. (Easier said than done.) Even if you manage this, you get only one sneak attack before you and the duke both must make initiative checks. When you sneak-attack the duke, you probably no longer have any cover or concealment from him (or you left it behind when you charged at him), which means that you cannot make a Hide check here while charging or attacking, not even with a –20 penalty (unless you have a special ability to hide without cover or concealment). However, since the duke is surprised, he's still flat-footed when you attack. Since you are no longer hidden, you lose the +2 attack bonus for being unseen, but you may get one by charging. And if you hit, you deal sneak-attack damage, of course.

If the duke wins the initiative, he is no longer flat-footed when his next turn begins. Assuming that you no longer have cover or concealment, you cannot hide again unless you can hide in plain sight. However, if the duke loses the initiative, he's still flat-footed when your next turn begins, and you can take a full-attack action, with which you can deal sneak-attack damage as many times as you can attack and hit. The duke is flat-footed until the first time he acts, so if you're both stealthy and lucky, you may easily knock him senseless, even if he has quite a few Hit-Points.


Low on health and short on sense, you endeavor to flee the Duke's infuriated guards. "Look! An obvious distraction!" you shout, and slip into a side passageway when the clods turn their heads. How long does this take?

Hypothesis: A standard action and a move action.

Your hypothesis is correct. However, the rules state (as a "general guideline") that when you hide after creating a diversion, you can travel no more than one foot for every rank you have in Hide skill. Your Hide check also adds –10. Being able to hide in plain sight makes this task a lot easier, because you don't have to create a diversion and can simply hide, taking two move actions if you need them to reach the nearest place of cover or concealment.


Special bonus: what penalty do you take if using Travel Devotion to move up to your speed as a swift action while Hiding?

Not having specific knowledge of this ability, I'll yield to Kelb_Panthera on this one.

[TuggyNE]

Thanks for the well-thought-out replies so far; sorry for derping out on this thread for a couple days.


Hypothesis A is correct. The situation couldn't be construed as anything other than sniping, the rules for which clearly state that you can make one ranged attack then hide as a move action.

So, essentially this is a case where the existence of a specific option silently invalidates the general option? I don't like it all that much, but it might be defensible.


Neither is entirely correct. You would take a net -35 penalty; -5 for moving more than half your speed, and -5 for each 5 feet of open ground per the hide expansion in CAd on page 101; if the DM rules the gibous moon is bright enough to afford no concealment on that open ground. If the DM rules that the moon is dim enough that concealment is maintained due to the area being bathed in shadowy illumination, then it's only -5.

Fair enough, and the CAdv note is good to know.


You must begin and end your turn with concealment to remain hidden. If the duke is adjacent to where you're concealed, you can make each attack at a -20 penalty to avoid anyone nearby spotting you as you brain him. The duke himself automatically discerns your location unless you have HiPS.

How does he do that? (Either the square you're in, or pinpointing your location.)


Conceptual explanation:
(a) You must have something to hide behind. If you dash across a 30 foot corridor with no obstacles and someone is watching that corridor, you flat out fail to avoid detection. There's just no way. If you have total cover or total concealment then you don't need to roll any checks because you aren't seen anyway.

I don't buy this; if someone is having to watch a fair chunk of the area, it's possible (if only by luck) to evade their direct scrutiny and peripheral vision. Sufficient skill (read: superhuman Hide bonuses, but nothing else) should make this quite practical.

Of course, D&D Hide/Spot doesn't make any particular attempt to model "how wide a field of view do you need to scan".


(c) Picture yourself standing still and not hidden. Then you don't move at all. Are you hidden now? Of course not. You must move. If you attack, you also are not hidden regardless of whether or not you used to be hidden. You must move again.

I'm not entirely convinced that you have to move out of your square to Hide (actually I'm not convinced at all, except that by RAW it seems probable), and I'm not quite sure why attacking must auto-reveal your location, even to the person you're attacking. Obviously, it should generally be quite easy to spot someone who attacks you in melee, but even there, proper use of misdirection and precise timing could allow you to keep them guessing where you're attacking from, if there's enough difference in skill.


I hate to muddy the waters even more, but here are my views.

Since the waters are already well and thoroughly muddied (hence my starting this thread), this isn't a problem. :smallwink:


This may be a minority view, but I'll accept hypothesis B. As an alternative to sniping, you can make a Hide check at –20 every time you shoot, just before you make your attack roll. If your Hide check beats all Spot checks, you remain hidden after your attack and can attack again as an unseen attacker, that is, just as if you were invisible, adding the same +2 bonus and treating every target as flat-footed. As soon as an enemy's Spot check beats your Hide check, you lose the +2 bonus with respect to this enemy, but every enemy is still flat-footed until the first time he or she acts. Even if no enemy spots you, every one can estimate your location by tracing your ranged attacks back to their source, but this doesn't enable any enemy to shoot back.

When you snipe, you don't bother to hide while you attack, but you try to hide again after you attack. I allow you to do this only if it's possible for you to move five feet. The reason is that being seen while you attack enables every enemy to pinpoint your location, and if you hide again without moving, every enemy assumes that you're still where you were when you were last seen. This means that even if an enemy fails to spot you (despite the –20 penalty on your Hide check), he or she still pinpoints your location and can shoot back with only a 50% miss chance. To avoid this outcome, you must move at least five feet to hide. Fortunately, since you must take a move action to snipe anyway, it's not impossible to move five feet and hide in another part of the tree. Indeed, if you're really keen to remain hidden at the end of your turn, sniping is a better option than attacking three times and making an opposed Hide check at –20 each time.

There's even the "mixed option" of both hiding while you attack (once only) and moving to hide after you attack if your first Hide check fails, but both Hide checks are at –20.

That actually makes sense (common and RAW, seemingly) of all the penalties and options involved. Well done.


I require you to move silently as well (whenever you're within 50 feet of someone who is being quiet), and your Move Silently checks add the same penalty as your Hide checks.

Wait, what? Do you mean the same penalties for moving at different speeds? That makes sense. However, there shouldn't be any special penalty for moving between spots of cover, for size, etc.


So I'd say that with two Climb checks, two Move Silently checks, and one Hide check, you reach the top of the wall.

Fair enough, although I left out Move Silently in a (vain) attempt to simplify things.


This seems doable, even without special abilities, but it's not easy. Sneak-attacking doesn't require you to be unseen for as long as you attack; it only requires your victim to be flat-footed throughout. So you need only to remain hidden, beating every Spot check the duke makes, until you're close enough to charge at him, or until the unwary duke comes within reach of your mêlée attack. (Easier said than done.) Even if you manage this, you get only one sneak attack before you and the duke both must make initiative checks. When you sneak-attack the duke, you probably no longer have any cover or concealment from him (or you left it behind when you charged at him), which means that you cannot make a Hide check here while charging or attacking, not even with a –20 penalty (unless you have a special ability to hide without cover or concealment). However, since the duke is surprised, he's still flat-footed when you attack. Since you are no longer hidden, you lose the +2 attack bonus for being unseen, but you may get one by charging. And if you hit, you deal sneak-attack damage, of course.

If the duke wins the initiative, he is no longer flat-footed when his next turn begins. Assuming that you no longer have cover or concealment, you cannot hide again unless you can hide in plain sight. However, if the duke loses the initiative, he's still flat-footed when your next turn begins, and you can take a full-attack action, with which you can deal sneak-attack damage as many times as you can attack and hit. The duke is flat-footed until the first time he acts, so if you're both stealthy and lucky, you may easily knock him senseless, even if he has quite a few Hit-Points.

Interesting. I guess that fixes my problems with, logically, being able to misdirect someone for a bit to keep sneak attacking them, though it does so in a weird way.


Being able to hide in plain sight makes this task a lot easier, because you don't have to create a diversion and can simply hide, taking two move actions if you need them to reach the nearest place of cover or concealment.

Assuming, of course, you have one of the versions that lets you Hide while observed; apparently not all of them do?

[Scow2]

While it's not by the rules in the Night Scenario, I'm in the GM camp that if players can be shanked by not declaring where they're looking, so should NPCs. However, it would require some heavy houseruling to cover a course of action that the rules can't model to allow for sane stealth-based gameplay without having to resort to HipS's overkill.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yes, if Hide was confusing, the various versions of HiPS and how exactly that ability functions are not exactly intuitive.

I ran a shadar-kai ranger/rogue in the last campaign I DM'd, and I was so glad she was an NPC so I could just gloss over combat that she was involved in somewhere over there, away from the party.

There are at least two versions of HiPS that I have heard discussed:

- Shadowdancer: somehow, this is superior.

- Dark Template (Tome of Magic): this one seems much more limited, though again, I'm not really sure how.

I think there have been many threads on this before, as I even remember posting on one. Is it thread necromancy if we just cut and paste or link to stuff from old threads?

Hide is implicitly not going to work smoothly as long as Spot is not well thought out.

By the by, at high levels with a very fast speed, or with movement op, Hide can get pretty silly. Limited to half speed when speed is over 150' isn't much of a limitation. Enough speed and you can pretty much move in from beyond a critters Spot range.

Invisible Spell phantom stag, anyone? Man, so weird that this stuff actually might work....

[Duke of Urrel]

Assuming, of course, you have one of the versions that lets you Hide while observed; apparently not all of them do?

I think every version of the Hide in Plain Sight ability allows you to try to hide even while you're being observed, without having to create a diversion. However, there are still two other things to consider:

1. Do you have the right kind of cover or concealment nearby to make a Hide check? The two versions of Hide in Plain Sight that I know of are (a) the extraordinary kind that 17th-level rangers have and (b) the supernatural kind that assassins and shadowdancers have.


The former (a) depends on the 13th-level ranger's Camouflage ability and works only in all-natural surroundings, though no actual cover or concealment is required.

The latter (b) requires no concealment exactly where you are, but you must be within 10 feet of a shadow in order to make a Hide check.

2. Unless you move at least five feet when you hide in plain sight, I rule that anybody who spotted you before is going to assume that you're still in the place where you were last seen. If you don't move when you hide, everybody who spotted you before pinpoints your location after you hide, even if your Hide check beats all Spot checks. If you do move at least five feet when you hide, then enemies who fail to spot you also don't know where you are, which is after all an important part of being hidden.

Hiding in plain sight can have the weird effect of making you effectively invisible with respect to some enemies, but visible to others. I'm still in the process of working out the details.


I think there have been many threads on this before, as I even remember posting on one.

Most certainly. I've been there, too. This is a topic that interests me.


Hide is implicitly not going to work smoothly as long as Spot is not well thought out.

Amen to that!

Incidentally, there's a thread a few days old still lurking somewhere that discusses the topic of whether Spot or Listen skill is more important. I commented that it really depends on the DM. If the DM has Spot and Listen checks worked out, Hide and Move Silently checks can be dealt with more sensibly. My point was that it's always Spot checks that should provoke Hide checks, not the reverse; and it's always Listen checks that should provoke Move Silently checks, not the reverse. Otherwise, if you're not careful, you risk making someone more likely to be seen or heard because he or she is trying to use stealth.

[Phelix-Mu]

Urghh....

This just brings up how much I'm not aware of regarding active vs. passive Spot and Listen checks.

It makes sense that a guard on duty is at least passively looking and listening, and an alert guard probably devotes as much of his round as possible to looking/listening (allowing for movement if he's doing that too). If you are sneaking around someone that is trying to be alert, then Hide/Move Silently should probably be made.

I have been spared players that are both playing stealth oriented characters and that are rules mavens. Thank my lucky stars. My current way of doing things is not at all well-defined, more of just common sense finessing my way through encounters (usually works, but when it doesn't, things get awkward fast).

Thanks to Tuggyne for bringing this confusing area of the rules up for discussion. Any clarification is much appreciated.

[lsfreak]

If you're still unsure due to differing viewpoints, you could always copy the questions into the Q&A thread and get Curmudgeon's super-strict-RAW reading of it. I'm pretty sure his interpretation is that you can take a -20 while full attacking and it's a single roll, but the clause about ranged attacks under Action means you have to snipe with ranged attacks and can't hide during a full attack. But I don't remember for sure.

Hiding clearly isn't written... clearly. If I thought the authors knew what they were doing, I'd make a joke about how they went meta and hid Hide.

[BobVosh]

There are at least two versions of HiPS that I have heard discussed:

- Shadowdancer: somehow, this is superior.

- Dark Template (Tome of Magic): this one seems much more limited, though again, I'm not really sure how.

I know Rangers have the best HiPS. It doesn't have the shadow limitation of the shadowdancer, and is an ex ability. That said 17 levels of ranger typically isn't worth in it any level of optimization.

[TuggyNE]

While it's not by the rules in the Night Scenario, I'm in the GM camp that if players can be shanked by not declaring where they're looking, so should NPCs. However, it would require some heavy houseruling to cover a course of action that the rules can't model to allow for sane stealth-based gameplay without having to resort to HipS's overkill.

Unless you bring in facing rules (actually, even if you do), you probably have to assume there's at least some chance someone isn't currently looking where you are. Exactly what that chance is a lot harder to figure out in the abstract, though.


The latter (b) requires no concealment exactly where you are, but you must be within 10 feet of a shadow in order to make a Hide check.

Also, I seem to recall that there's a HiPS version that works without shadows but not in natural daylight. Or something.


2. Unless you move at least five feet when you hide in plain sight, I rule that anybody who spotted you before is going to assume that you're still in the place where you were last seen. If you don't move when you hide, everybody who spotted you before pinpoints your location after you hide, even if your Hide check beats all Spot checks. If you do move at least five feet when you hide, then enemies who fail to spot you also don't know where you are, which is after all an important part of being hidden.

By which you mean they (believe they) know which square you're in? That's probably fine.


My point was that it's always Spot checks that should provoke Hide checks, not the reverse; and it's always Listen checks that should provoke Move Silently checks, not the reverse. Otherwise, if you're not careful, you risk making someone more likely to be seen or heard because he or she is trying to use stealth.

Yeah, that would be … most unfortunate.


If you're still unsure due to differing viewpoints, you could always copy the questions into the Q&A thread and get Curmudgeon's super-strict-RAW reading of it. I'm pretty sure his interpretation is that you can take a -20 while full attacking and it's a single roll, but the clause about ranged attacks under Action means you have to snipe with ranged attacks and can't hide during a full attack. But I don't remember for sure.

The thread was originally inspired by several of his answers, actually.

Unfortunately, they weren't entirely clear RAW-wise, and made no apparent common sense at all. Furthermore, they seemed to contradict the way I thought things worked, and in weird ways.

[only1doug]

IMO the best form of HiPS is a feat + 1 level dip combo,

Blend into shadows (Drow of the Underdark) gives HiPS as a free action, without any need for cover or concealment as long as you are within 10' of an area of magical darkness (requires darkness as a spell like ability, uses 1 usage of a darkness spell like ability)
Warlock level 1 taking Darkness Invocation (darkness as a spell like ability infinite times / day).
A second level of Warlock would give you Devils sight, the ability to see through magical darkness (and normal darkness) which will negate the miss chance granted by darkness if you want it, or use the first level spell Ebon Eyes.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Succesfully hiding from someone is functionally equivalent to being invisible to that person.

When an invisibile character strikes an enemy in melee, that enemy instantly knows which square the attack came from. He has observed an attacker in that square.

Since you're hiding, but not actually invisible or otherwise totally concealed, the enemy discerning your square results in him looking right at you. Your presence and position are now known and you're being observed making it impossible to continue hiding from him unless you have HiPS.

[Duke of Urrel]

I originally posted a summary of my house rules here, but I've withdrawn it, because it needs more work.