Assault Crossbow - Am I Crazy?

[pbdr]

So, I wanted to add a Malazan flavored assault crossbow capable of shooting alchemical bolts. This is what I came up with. It's a crossbow, so I don't have it as an exotic weapon as of yet, but I could change that.

The difficulty is going to be finding one (most likely taken from a military corpse) and finding the alchemical bolts. Carrying it in the setting is going to be difficult as well (it will attract unwanted attention).

Basically, I'm wondering if this is way out of balance. The damage is high, but you get a -2 to hit (always) and can only shoot 1/3 rounds (1/2 with a feat). The characters would have no chance of getting one before 5th level and they are spell caster poor (just one warlock a ranged ranger and 2 tanks) so don't have much area effect capacity.

Any suggestions to make it better?

Assault Crossbow

The Assault Crossbow is a projectile weapon of military origin. It is essentially a larger heavy crossbow (weight 20 lb), with two spanning arms to throw a single bolt. The weapon is difficult to handle, and a medium creature takes a -2 penalty to hit with this weapon and it cannot be wielded by a smaller sized creature. It takes two full rounds to span and load. The Rapid Reload feat reduces the load time to 1 round. There is a special feat called Assault Crossbow Specialist (requires training) that allows the character to dismantle and reassemble the crossbow into an easily transportable form (2 minutes) and reload in 1 round, plus carry alchemical bolts more safely.

Normal bolts do 2d8, with range of 160' and cost 5 gp, 1 lb.

Alchemical Bolts (40' and 2.5 lb.) (250 gp each, extra on black market) are specially designed hallow Assault Crossbow bolts that hold an explosive alchemical mixture. They are extremely difficult to find and controlled/illegal. The explosive bolt does 1d6 piercing damage plus an additional 2d6 explosive damage to the target and all within 5’ (DC 14 reflex for half damage, no save to a hit target). If not properly stored there is a chance that these can explode under certain circumstances.

Thanks!

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Certainly doesn't sound over powered to me... maybe a little under, even, given the low fire rate. I'd allow it.

[bross]

As it stands this seems like its simply a Heavy Crossbow (repeating?) thats been advanced a size category. The only difference is the damage would be a 2d6 not 2d8 and then the bolts you describe exist somewhere I forget which book.

All in all I agree that its not overpowered.

[Chained Birds]

How much will is cost to put a Cusser on one of these? :smallamused:

[Deophaun]

Must... resist... mentioning... pistol grips... collapsible stocks... rail mounts...

...can you get an arrow suppressor for it? Damn!

Yeah, there's nothing broken here. Most crossbows are actually underpowered as you can't take advantage of iterative attacks. Once you get a military weapon that takes multiple rounds to reload, you're looking at a crew served weapon. This thing is going to be operated more like a small ballista than a crossbow. Any army employing these is going to have at least a two-man team, because equipping two people with two such weapons is a waste of resources. That means that the weapon should be built with that assumption in mind. For starters, it's going to have a tripod or mount of some kind carried by the second member to eliminate the size penalty. It's not like you're going to be moving anywhere when reloading it anyway.

The range is its nicest feature, but unlikely to see much play. Making the alchemical bolts illegal is probably an overreach. The weapon doesn't strike me as attractive for a PC just by the stats. Throw on a 250 gp ammunition tax and the complications arising with authority, and this becomes more trouble than it's worth from a player's perspective.

[pbdr]

Throw on a 250 gp ammunition tax and the complications arising with authority, and this becomes more trouble than it's worth from a player's perspective.

Not for the PC in my game unfortunately. They have tendency to let their inner anarchist show while gaming....

[Ravens_cry]

Remember, When Mister Safety Catch Is Not On, Mister Crossbow Is Not Your Friend.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I thought this was gonna be a crossbow like the ones in The Last Story. :smallannoyed:

[Squirrel_Dude]

It doesn't sound broken. More like a light ballista in 3.5 terms. The loading time might be a little long though because it is the exact same as that of a ballista and does less damage.


1 thing though: A ballista only has an effective range of 120 ft, so you have a portable crossbow that somehow out-ranges a siege weapon?

[DMVerdandi]

This is actually pretty bad...
For 8 more damage, it is far slower and less reliable than a heavy repeating crossbow. Hardly worth it.

It's too slow to be tactical at all. Instead perhaps look at crafting a wonderous item for a repeating crossbow case.
Maybe using the spells shrink item as a foundation, allow it to shoot any type and size of arrows, and be loaded with like... 100 rounds of ammunition.

Add flaming,flaming burst,and thunderous to the crossbow itself and you got yourself a nice shotgun

[Gavinfoxx]

This exists in the game already. A Crossbow called the "Prodd" is capable of launching alchemical things. Dragon Magazine #349.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Once you get a military weapon that takes multiple rounds to reload, you're looking at a crew served weapon. This thing is going to be operated more like a small ballista than a crossbow. Any army employing these is going to have at least a two-man team, because equipping two people with two such weapons is a waste of resources. That means that the weapon should be built with that assumption in mind. For starters, it's going to have a tripod or mount of some kind carried by the second member to eliminate the size penalty. It's not like you're going to be moving anywhere when reloading it anyway.


Actually... that sounds kinda awesome. Repeating crossbow that has to be set up to fire, but have excellent stats/range once it is. Probably don't want to make two players carry it, but still... it could be fun. If nothing else, it'd be fun to face.

[The Glyphstone]

So, it's Sergeant Detritus's Piecemaker?

[FreakyCheeseMan]

So, it's Sergeant Detritus's Peacemaker?

Sadly, no.

Also, wasn't it spelled Piecemaker?

[The Glyphstone]

Sadly, no.

Also, wasn't it spelled Piecemaker?

YEah, it was. Fixed.

[icefractal]

Not overpowered - in fact, not usable as a primary weapon at all. Pretty much anything that has a round+ loading time - unless it's extremely effective - is going to suck if you actually try to fire it repeatedly in battle. However, it can be useful as a "fire once at the start, then drop it and switch to sword" weapon, which is how early pistols were often used IRL.


For comparison, let's consider how powerful it would need to be for a 1-round reload time to be effective in combat. Obviously, this would need to scale with level, but for the moment we'll consider a 6th level Fighter. We'll make this the most favorable conditions by assuming the character in question has only 10 Strength, so composite longbows aren't a factor:

BAB +6, Longbow +1, Rapid Shot => 3d8+3 per round, so 33 damage over two rounds. The crossbow's damage is front-loaded, which is an advantage, so we'll settle for a bit less damage total. The fact that some of the longbow attacks are at a lower BAB is (IMO) canceled out by the fact that you can split the damage up, and also are less vulnerable to something like Deflect Arrows or Mirror Image.

Crossbow: 8d6, so with a +1 version it would be 29 damage. Close enough. However, even at 8d6, it's a pretty specialist weapon - only people who don't have extra sources of damage (like Rangers, Rogues, people with high Strength, etc.) would want to use it repeatedly. On the other hand, it makes a really potent first strike.

Which brings up a problematic point with "reload"-type abilities - if you make them strong enough to use repeatedly, they'll be super-effective when used a single time, or with a minion to do the reloading. "Charge-up" abilities where you pay the action cost up front (like the Assassin's Death Attack) are easier to balance - although again, you have to really beef them up to be worth it.


TL;DR - it's fine, if anything you should bump up the damage a bit, but still don't expect people to use it every round as opposed to an "opening shot" basis.

[8wGremlin]

What about a custom magic item of Launch Object (level 1 spell)
It's what I use to fire alchemical and poisons

very long range...

[TuggyNE]

When I saw the title, I was thinking you were coming up with some sort of DDO-style "load and then burst fire" crossbow, which would be pretty unrealistic (and maybe a bit unbalanced). This isn't really an "assault" crossbow; it's more of a "crossbow-style hand cannon", or something, and as thoroughly mentioned, its long reload times kill its usefulness quite thoroughly. D&D is not kind to any sort of slow sniper fire; ranged weapons require lots and lots of attacks to be generally useful.

[DMVerdandi]

This is actually pretty bad...
For 8 more damage, it is far slower and less reliable than a heavy repeating crossbow. Hardly worth it.

It's too slow to be tactical at all. Instead perhaps look at crafting a wonderous item for a repeating crossbow case.
Maybe using the spells shrink item as a foundation, allow it to shoot any type and size of arrows, and be loaded with like... 100 rounds of ammunition.

Add flaming,flaming burst,and thunderous to the crossbow itself and you got yourself a nice shotgun

LAWL...
I just got the Arms and Equipment guide for 3.5 and just found out that the very thing I suggested exists down to the T.

It's called "quick loading" and is a weapon enchantment.
It allows 100 bolts to be loaded, use of alternate rounds at will, and for a move action to reload a regular heavy crossbow.
When used on a repeating crossbow, reloading becomes a free action.
And it's only +2. DAMN!

All my want.

[Answerer]

Arms and Equipment guide for 3.5
The Arms & Equipment Guide is 3.0 material. Most of it is still RAW-legal in 3.5, but not all DMs allow it.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why does NO ONE want to use the Prodd? Seriously... this already exists... no need to reinvent the wheel, people!

[Answerer]

Because most people don't own that particular issue of Dragon?

[3drinks]

LAWL...
I just got the Arms and Equipment guide for 3.5 and just found out that the very thing I suggested exists down to the T.

It's called "quick loading" and is a weapon enchantment.
It allows 100 bolts to be loaded, use of alternate rounds at will, and for a move action to reload a regular heavy crossbow.
When used on a repeating crossbow, reloading becomes a free action.
And it's only +2. DAMN!

All my want.

*Hijacks idea and researches in the A&E guide for ideas for his Orc battalion.*

Seriously, thank you, this gives me just what I need to equip my Orcs with for my PCs to handle.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well I homebrewed this some time ago...

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1441.0

[Ravens_cry]

So, it's Sergeant Detritus's Piecemaker?
My thoughts exactly, see above.:smallamused:

[Kuulvheysoon]

So, it's Sergeant Detritus's Piecemaker?

You sir, have just won this thread.

Stay frosty, friend. Yes, that was a reference to Discworld trolls getting smarter in the cold.