Help defeating a gamebreaker [PF] (Please Lock)

[ZeroGear]

Alright, this guy has me frustrated and I and turning to you guys for advice.
The long and short of the story:
One of the guys that occasionally joins the group is what we call a Game Breaker, someone who can find ways to create characters with power levels beyond what should be possible. I will admit he does not do this all the time, but there is one character that he made (as just something for a 20th level challenge with access to all printed material) is this stupid lich of his. The thing that gets under my skin is that he claims that it is unbeatable, and I want to really make some build that will prove him wrong.

Here's what I know about the lich (I don't have access to its statistics):
-It is a 20th level diviner lich
-He has his own demiplane from which he manifests into the material plane using astral projection.
-The lich has the feat Thanatopic Spell, which bypasses resistances for his negative energy and level-drain spells
-He has a magic item that lets him use Astral Projection for free once per day
-He has used said magic item to create not only an army of Simulacrums of himself, but has also managed to summon several thousand creatures to protect his demiplane (he claims that every time he creates a projection, it comes into existence with all his gear, including scrolls, and therefore he has access to "free" castings of simulacrum and the other spells on his scrolls)
-His lich has been around for 1000 years.

I will happily ask him more details when I find him, but short of DM fiat, is there any build that can beat this guy?


EDIT:
Just because this keeps coming up:
This is NOT connected to any ongoing campaign. The lich was made for a 20th level one-shot that never came to be. There is not issue with the way the player who made the lich interacts with anyone else, and I am not the DM. The reason I made this thread was because I wanted to prove that there is no way mechanically to make an invincible character.

EDIT 2:
Alright, his thread is starting to go in a direction I don't want it to. While Originally I started this as brainstorming, some people seem to have gotten the idea that I have a problem with the guy who made the lich. I don't. In fact, I respect his ability to come up with everything he used to create this monstrosity. I do, however, have a problem with the mentality of making a blanket statement that it is possible to create a single build that can beat everything else without problem and has no weaknesses. What I am trying to prove by "beating" the lich is that there is always some way to beat any build even if is the single exception to the rule. Don't get me wrong, you guys have come up with some great ideas, but I don't like the idea of having started something that makes someone look bad because they did a great job at making a nearly unbeatable boss. Thank you all, but it is time to lock the thread.

[Spuddles]

Shapechange into a Sarrukh. Give your snake familiar the manipulate for ability. Turn into a scaled one of Toril (kobold will work). Instruct your familiar to give you the manipulate form ability. Go nuts.

[Magnera]

There is one build that I know of, himself.

Pay him to craft you a scroll of wish. Wish yourself to go back into the time where he was just a small boy, make him into a good version of a lich. ( They exist, I promise) Copy all of the techniques that the evil version uses and have the good character do all of it! Then have him battle himself!:smallcool:

[ZeroGear]

Shapechange into a Sarrukh. Give your snake familiar the manipulate for ability. Turn into a scaled one of Toril (kobold will work). Instruct your familiar to give you the manipulate form ability. Go nuts.

Pun Pun is not the answer. He can kill Pun Pun with level drain. And Thanatopic Spell Defeats the purpose of death ward and similar abilities.

[awa]

there is an ability that makes you completely immune to all attacks except from one sources.

energy drain requires a touch attack pun pun can have an arbitrarily high ac.
he can also acquire infinite sr and immunity to rays he cant kill pun pun (if pun pun has the right tricks)

[Arkturas]

Yes, but in using Pun Pun to defeat his build you are sending the exactly wrong message here.

This is not a material problem, this is a communication/expectation problem.

Talk to him, and attempt to understand where he is coming from, and try to get him to understand where you are coming from.

Presumably, other plays are not having fun with him taking the spotlight?




If none of the above, just sick a major god/Lady of Pain on him. You are the DM.

[Spuddles]

Pun Pun is not the answer. He can kill Pun Pun with level drain. And Thanatopic Spell Defeats the purpose of death ward and similar abilities.

Just give yourself the following special quality:
(Ex) Immunity to Thanatopic Spell
You are immune to any spell or effect that is affected by Thanatopic Spell. If you are targeted by the Lich of Terrorspire (or whatever his name is) with a Thanatopic spell, it immediately rebounds and targets him, on all planes, in all realities, as well as all simulacra, clones, and other copies of him.


You really need to read how Pun Pun works.


there is an ability that makes you completely immune to all attacks except from one sources.

energy drain requires a touch attack pun pun can have an arbitrarily high ac.
he can also acquire infinite sr and immunity to rays he cant kill pun pun (if pun pun has the right tricks)

Pun Pun can have arbitrarily anything. Manipulate Form is that good. Why worry about a number for AC when you can have
(Ex) Sucks to Your Assmar
Any time Pun Pun is the target of an effect or within the area of an effect, Pun Pun can prevent the effect by turning the effect into a critical fumble. Roll on the following table to determine what happens:
01-00
The effect fails to do anything at all. If Pun Pun chooses, the source of the effect is removed from existence and the universe (except Pun Pun) forgets about him.

[Zman]

Astral Projection explicitly states your physical body is left behind on the Material Plane.

If he is on the Material Plane and not a Demiplane then he is fair game. Insert unstoppable Scry and Fry etc.

[Muktidata]

Sounds like a fun hunt! You should check into Iron Siege character builds. I'm sure they'd help. Also try the minmax forums?

[ZeroGear]

Just give yourself the following special quality:
(Ex) Immunity to Thanatopic Spell
You are immune to any spell or effect that is affected by Thanatopic Spell. If you are targeted by the Lich of Terrorspire (or whatever his name is) with a Thanatopic spell, it immediately rebounds and targets him, on all planes, in all realities, as well as all simulacra, clones, and other copies of him.


You really need to read how Pun Pun works.

A) Such an ability does not exist
B) He has specifically prepared against Pun Pun
C) We will stop using Pun Pun as a reference, it gets old.


Yes, but in using Pun Pun to defeat his build you are sending the exactly wrong message here.

This is not a material problem, this is a communication/expectation problem.

Talk to him, and attempt to understand where he is coming from, and try to get him to understand where you are coming from.

Presumably, other plays are not having fun with him taking the spotlight?




If none of the above, just sick a major god/Lady of Pain on him. You are the DM.

He is not using the build in any campaign. As a player, and this is out of context of any campaign setting, I want to prove to him that there is always some way to defeat any build and that you cannot prepare for everything. That is why I'm looking for a build he cannot destroy outright (and why I turned to you guys)


Astral Projection explicitly states your physical body is left behind on the Material Plane.

If he is on the Material Plane and not a Demiplane then he is fair game. Insert unstoppable Scry and Fry etc.

He is never on the Material Plane. That is one of the issues I face as his physical body rarely ever leaves the Demiplane. In effect, as far as he has explained it, he casts the spell and treats the Demiplane as a material plane.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Yes, but in using Pun Pun to defeat his build you are sending the exactly wrong message here.

This is not a material problem, this is a communication/expectation problem.

Talk to him, and attempt to understand where he is coming from, and try to get him to understand where you are coming from.

Presumably, other plays are not having fun with him taking the spotlight?




If none of the above, just sick a major god/Lady of Pain on him. You are the DM.

I'd try to go for a compromise - indulge him for this one hurrah, but explain to him that this can't be how games in general go. I'd probably have a one-on-one session to resolve the Lich Crisis, but let him know that either way, you'll want him to play more reasonable characters, in the future.

In my experience, obsessive is obsessive - and the same players who become obsessive about power-gaming, can be just as obsessive about role-play instead.

[awa]

mind rape/loves pain still works as it's not limited by distance or dimension the target of the spell must be living but that doesn't matter for the person taking the damge
edit
he has thousand of copies of himself? use the same trick to get an arbitrary number of mirrors of opposition wish them all into his demi plane now he has to fight an arbitrarily large number of himself and they all know where his phylactery is. repeat as necessary.

alternatively wish the original into a room with the mirrors so the original has to fight all the duplicates him self then the duplicates having all his knowledge wish them selves next to the phylactery then they destroy it.

[Zman]

He is never on the Material Plane. That is one of the issues I face as his physical body rarely ever leaves the Demiplane. In effect, as far as he has explained it, he casts the spell and treats the Demiplane as a material plane.

Astral Prijection specifically states "the Material Plane". With his build it's perfectly appropriate to use RAW against him.

Also, how is he accessing 9th level spells with 4 LA?

[Woodzyowl]

I have found that the easiest solution to things that are "unbeatable" is rule zero. Just saying.

[Magnera]

I still think that if you want to kill him, make him kill himself. Its what I do with every other super powered gamer.

[ZeroGear]

Also, how is he accessing 9th level spells with 4 LA?

Pathfinder doesn't have level adjustments.

Also, maybe I didn't clarify this, but his build is not involved in any campaign. I am also not the DM, and this entire thing was made as a challenge to build overpowered characters.
He is a Gamebreaker in terms of mechanics, not the setting, and built this character for the (never actually started) 20th level evil game that one of the other guys was going to run.

The biggest reason I have for wanting to beat this guy is to prove that no matter how you build something, it can be beaten and you cannot prepare for every possible problem. (I am just not the kind of guy who accepts that things just cannot be done; but I have kinda run out of ideas as to HOW to beat his lich)

[Fable Wright]

Is 3.5e material kosher? If so, get a Githyanki Silver Sword. Wish yourself next to his physical body during a Time Stop, then ready an action to sever the Astral Chord that ties his physical body to his astral one as soon as the time stop ends. This immediately kills him with no save. You now have a week to find his phylactery, and can probably have a contingent Plane Shift to escape the golems guarding him. Hypercognition may help in finding the phylactery.

[Rabble]

There's always imprisonment. He can't end the astral projection while trapped in stasis underground. That or the classic combo of Threnodic sympathy and trap the soul. The fun part of the second option is that he probably qualifies as a "powerful creature from another plane" and therefore will be forced to perform a service for anyone that frees him if he is ever freed. Although if you can find an sphere of annihilation combining that with sympathy and wishing it onto his demiplane could be an interesting solution.

[awa]

pathfinder does not have level adjustment but it's cr works a lot like level adjustment "Treat the monster's CR as its total class levels and allow the characters to multiclass into the core classes. Do not advance such monsters by adding Hit Dice. Monster PCs should only advance through classes."

so since a lich is a cr+2 template he should be a level 18 character still high enough for level 9 spells

[Immabozo]

Planar Sheppard, chosing plane of fire, I think it is. Turn into a djinn, or similar creature. Have a friend wish that any time he would create a copy of himself the following day, it is created a perfect copy, except hostile to him.

Grant said wish.

[Twilightwyrm]

Have you guy's tried attacking his silver cord? Given his penchant for astral projection, I would have imagined attempting this would have been one of the first things to consider.

Have you tried Imprisonment? Unless he just happened to prepare the Freedom spell that day, this doesn't kill him, but does leave him permanently stranded under the earth. It doesn't kill him, so this doesn't cause him to retreat to his body, but prevents him from doing pretty much anything, leaving him stranded and unable to take any action.

Flesh to Stone could also work. It is a spell that technically works on objects, and does not "kill" or "destroy" him for the purposes of either Astral Projection, or the Lich's rejuvination. Also of note, Liches/Undead are no longer immune to polymorph/petrification/etc. Hell you could also follow it up with stone to mud, then mud to stone to turn him into a nice floor tile, content to be walked on by everyone else for the rest of his existence. This has the added benefit of leaving him in the limbless, speechless, but technically still not "destroyed" form if someone ever casts Stone to Flesh on him, as being a Lich he apparently does not need any of his vital organs to survive (debatably, his brain wouldn't be intact either, meaning he may well be entirely unable to take mental actions either).

There are other methods as well, such as the above mentioned killing his body on the material plane, but these seem the most straightforward, so I'd like to know how he is getting around these first.

[Newoblivion]

You can try to Turn Undead him :smalltongue:

[jeanlou]

I would say go with the things he believe he is immune to.

The Immune to Mind affecting is hard to bypass, but can be. Using the suggested adaptation from the Nightspinner class (Complete Mage), you can make an enchanter who bypass the normal Immune to Mind Affecting.

So crank up the DC and dominate him. Now since he thinks enchantments wont be a problem, he wont be prepared for that. After that, it's game over.

Then you can make him do all sorts of non self-destructive things, like command all his simulacrum to commit mass suicide, obliterate all of his gear, and come in person to see his good friend the Nightmare spinner, bringing his phylactery with him.

[Immabozo]

Or shoot him with this arrow.


http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/s720x720/522630_10150900661888625_829178624_12894060_157796 545_n.jpg


Proceed to locate his phylactery and shoot it with another arrow. Hint, it's probably hidden on his demiplane. As a side note, can you destroy a demiplane?

[ZeroGear]

Or shoot him with this arrow.


http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/s720x720/522630_10150900661888625_829178624_12894060_157796 545_n.jpg


Proceed to locate his phylactery and shoot it with another arrow. Hint, it's probably hidden on his demiplane. As a side note, can you destroy a demiplane?

The problem with that are the thousands of AOOs that I'll take from his multitudes of summoned (or bound) creatures the instant i appear on the demiplane.

Also, assume that he has somehow managed to buff his saves to insane levels (40+).
And no, turning does not work.

[Immabozo]

So, I repeat:

Planar Sheppard, chosing plane of fire, I think it is. Turn into a djinn, or similar creature. Have a friend wish that any time he would create a copy of himself the following day, it is created a perfect copy, except hostile to him.

Grant said wish.

[Crake]

Good ol' flesh to stone wins this one. Since he's technically not considered destroyed when he gets turned into stone, he never re-forms with his phylactery. Then just break the statue down and spread the pieces to the far reaches of the planes, preferably leaving some around the bottom of the spire in outland where they're out of magical reach and hey presto, lich is done for. As for the Astral projection sillyness, where he gets infinite uses of his consumables, point out to him nobody likes it when people do that, and if he wants to be like that, then every good clergy in the game also has infinite everything too.

[Kane0]

- Throw him into the River Styx. He may or may not be fished out by a demon/devil/yugoloth
- Send him close enough to the Spire in the Middle of the outlands, then sick a CR 5 or so monster on him.
- Send a few inevitables after him. Maybe use some of Afroakuma's Inevitables if the normal ones are too easy. The more he kills, the more a problem he becomes and the more Inevitables come to get rid of him. He will be hunted all the time everywhere, and he is a caster that needs to sleep no matter how many of him there are.

The best part about all three of those is that being on the Astral Plane won't necessarily save him, as each of those solutions involves being on the outer planes where it is much harder to just Astral out (though still possible).

But then again a lot of places in the outer planes could be lethal to a 20th level caster. Like being in Vecna's private library or some other god's sanctum uninvited for example...

[Immabozo]

lightning from god, 118d20 lightning and divine wrath damage, no resistances, no saves?

[Newoblivion]

Where is the DM in all of this?

Anyway, you can make a Shadow Weave wizard, and then tell him that you challenge him and all of his clones to a dual. Lure him to an anti-magic zone and win. As a shadow weave user you are immune to anti magic zones.

[Carth]

Have you guy's tried attacking his silver cord? Given his penchant for astral projection, I would have imagined attempting this would have been one of the first things to consider.


Unless PF added ways to destroy silver cords, this isn't a particularly viable strategy. Silver swords only are able to destroy cords on the astral plane. Astral dreadnoughts need to have the astral traveler be flat-footed (not likely thanks to foresight), be running away (not likely, they'll just teleport or similar), or be flanked (easy to be immune to in 3.5, not sure about PF). However, because of how PF nerfed polymorph and shapechange, getting ahold of an astral dreadnought to destroy the cord isn't an easy task.

[TypoNinja]

I'm liking the inevitable option.

Sufficiently paranoid wizards are quite hard to kill, however he has limited resources, and astral projection is also a weakness, destroying one will apply 2 negative levels, make him account for every single astral duplication he's produced. Each one is a weakness. Killing him only sends him back to his demi-plane to regenerate, killing astral duplicates stacks negative levels, and you only need a few before he'll be permanently stranded on his own demi-plane. Also it sounds like he's got enough duplicates floating around you might be able to kill him with negative levels.

The solution of course is naturally another sufficiently paranoid wizard, who has the benefit of being on the offense, and cherry picking his preparations to destroy his target. No matter what its easier to design a better weapon than it is to design a perfect defense.

[Ravens_cry]

Good ol' flesh to stone wins this one. Since he's technically not considered destroyed when he gets turned into stone, he never re-forms with his phylactery. Then just break the statue down and spread the pieces to the far reaches of the planes, preferably leaving some around the bottom of the spire in outland where they're out of magical reach and hey presto, lich is done for. As for the Astral projection sillyness, where he gets infinite uses of his consumables, point out to him nobody likes it when people do that, and if he wants to be like that, then every good clergy in the game also has infinite everything too.

Except it's a fort save, and undead are immune to fort saves that don't affect objects.
However, Undead bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/undead-bloodline) sorcerers have a nifty ability. They can affect undead that were once humanoids as humanoids. Have *that* cast Flesh to Stone. Oh dear, that doesn't seem to work, but mind affecting affects do affect undead when cast by an undead bloodline sorcerer, so make him your friend or slave, or some other nasty mind affecting effect. Sure, it's his good save, but it's not his good stat. Just spam till he rolls a 1 at worst.
I don't think we've been told the race of our caster was originally, so it may or may not work.

[TypoNinja]

Except it's a fort save, and undead are immune to fort saves that don't affect objects.
However, Undead bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/undead-bloodline) sorcerers have a nifty ability. They can affect undead that were once humanoids as humanoids. Have *that* cast Flesh to Stone. Oh dear, that doesn't seem to work, but mind affecting affects do affect undead when cast by an undead bloodline sorcerer, so make him your friend or slave, or some other nasty mind affecting effect. Sure, it's his good save, but it's not his good stat. Just spam till he rolls a 1 at worst.
I don't think we've been told the race of our caster was originally, so it may or may not work.

If his saves are so good wouldn't a mailman be the best way to deal with him? Or does mailman not work in PF?

[Carth]

Exactly how good are their saves? My ridiculous geyser caster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14615689&postcount=10), if taken to level 18 and turned into a lich, could force DC 44 will or reflex saves (can target either save with the first strike), unless you can resist the 1 force damage somehow. Failure means you're dazed for 5 rounds, and are then subject to making will saves every round you're still in the radius of the geyser, or else you just continued to be dazed. Which likely means you'll just stay in the geyser, and slowly be worn down by the 1 force damage (and 2d6 fire if you're not immune) every round. With a persist rod, of course, so every time you roll a save, you need to make it twice.

Note that whether they are on a demi plane or the material plane doesn't matter much. By RAW nothing prevents you from simply plane shifting to their demi plane, or using wish to get there if necessary.

[Ravens_cry]

If his saves are so good wouldn't a mailman be the best way to deal with him? Or does mailman not work in PF?
I have no idea what his saves are, but everyone can roll a 1 as long as they aren't out right immune, which undead bloodline potentially negates for mind affecting.

[Aharon]

@Carth
This is incorrect, demiplanes can't be planeshifted into (MotP, AFB so I can't cite the page). The Wish transport function is very broad (from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions), so it would likely work.

@OP
His build is basically an optimized paranoid wizard. From your description, Time Travel seems to be one of the few things he doesn't guard against, so killing him in the past is your best bet. There are other ways (Spirit Binding in conjunction with Trap the Soul, for example), but they rely on 3.5 material and are ressource-intensive (link to a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240054&page=4). There, capturing a 10th level wizard was discussed, but at the level of optimization involved, the level of optimization that was assumed, the actual level doesn't really matter a lot.

[Ravens_cry]

@Carth
This is incorrect, demiplanes can't be planeshifted into (MotP, AFB so I can't cite the page). This is not explicitly overridden by the Wish transport function, but the Wish transport function is very broad (from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions), so it would likely work.
Not sure if the same rule exists in Pathfinder.

In fact, under the Create Demiplane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-demiplane) spell, it explicitly says you can.

[Carth]

Demiplanes are almost always coterminous
planes that are moored to another, major plane
at a single location. Usually the larger plane is
the Material Plane, but portals to a demiplane
can be found on the Astral Plane, the Ethereal
Plane, and any of the Inner or Outer Planes.
Because they ’re so small, demiplanes
have several access restrictions. First, they
can only be accessed from a specific spot on
the larger plane. A demiplane usually has a
portal at a stationary location on the larger
plane. Some demiplanes are coterminous
to multiple planes, and such a demiplane connects to a
specific spot on each of the planes it’s coterminous to.
These demiplanes normally become pathways between
otherwise unconnected planes, or they serve as meet-ing grounds for particular cosmologies. If you create a
cosmology where rival deities need a place to meet
(such as Mount Olympus in Greek myth) or a “land of
the dead” that several deities share, those locations are
probably demiplanes.
Second, characters cannot use plane shiftor similar
spells to travel to or from a demiplane, except at the spe-cific locations where the demiplane is close to its coter-minous plane. These locations usually already have por-tals or natural vortices. But some demiplanes don’t even
have a single portal—such places are often used as pris-ons for powerful creatures.
Demiplanes are not coexistent with the Ethereal
Plane or other Transitive Planes, so spells that require
access to the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, or the
Plane of Shadow do not function (see Chapter 3 for a
list of such spells). Some limited locations may still
have a tenuous connection to the Astral Plane even on
a prison demiplane. Spells that use the Astral Plane
work only within 100 feet of such weak spots, and even
then, such spells are considered impeded (as the
impeded magic trait).
Most links to demiplanes take the forms of established
portals. However, other types of connections are possi-ble, especially shifting borders. Some demiplanes coter-minous to the Material Plane have fog on their borders,
for example, and travelers passing through the mists one
night may find themselves on a demiplane.

Thanks to the bolded sentences it looks like there's a sliver of a possibility for making a demi plane that you can't plane shift to, if (and only if) you choose to port in 3.5 and allow someone to choose whether their demiplane is coterminous with another plane. Wish works regardless, though.

[ahenobarbi]

Wait. Lich is +4LA. So at Effective Character Level 20 the character would have only 16 class levels (tops). So the character wouldn't have access to 9th leel spells as diviner. This is suspicious...

I red this is pathfinder and this was answered.

[ahenobarbi]

Well if the astral body runs into effect suppressing it (like Dead Magic Zone or Antimagic Field) the Astral Projection will not be able to act (it' suppressed). Nor will the original body (the spell didn't end). Then you can take your time destroying the original body.

Also as pointed out by RAW he can only Astral Project from Material Plane. Or you could just cut the silver cord.

[TypoNinja]

I have no idea what his saves are, but everyone can roll a 1 as long as they aren't out right immune, which undead bloodline potentially negates for mind affecting.

Yea but that requires waiting for a critical failure, something that just gets the job done right away (preferably in a surprise round) would be superior.

[Crake]

Except it's a fort save, and undead are immune to fort saves that don't affect objects.
However, Undead bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/undead-bloodline) sorcerers have a nifty ability. They can affect undead that were once humanoids as humanoids. Have *that* cast Flesh to Stone. Oh dear, that doesn't seem to work, but mind affecting affects do affect undead when cast by an undead bloodline sorcerer, so make him your friend or slave, or some other nasty mind affecting effect. Sure, it's his good save, but it's not his good stat. Just spam till he rolls a 1 at worst.
I don't think we've been told the race of our caster was originally, so it may or may not work.

Considering you can cast flesh to stone on a dead body, which is technically an object, it should work on undead.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Alright, this guy has me frustrated and I and turning to you guys for advice.
The long and short of the story:
One of the guys that occasionally joins the group is what we call a Game Breaker, someone who can find ways to create characters with power levels beyond what should be possible. I will admit he does not do this all the time, but there is one character that he made (as just something for a 20th level challenge with access to all printed material) is this stupid lich of his. The thing that gets under my skin is that he claims that it is unbeatable, and I want to really make some build that will prove him wrong.

Here's what I know about the lich (I don't have access to its statistics):
-It is a 20th level diviner lich
-He has his own demiplane from which he manifests into the material plane using astral projection.
-The lich has the feat Thanatopic Spell, which bypasses resistances for his negative energy and level-drain spells
-He has a magic item that lets him use Astral Projection for free once per day
-He has used said magic item to create not only an army of Simulacrums of himself, but has also managed to summon several thousand creatures to protect his demiplane (he claims that every time he creates a projection, it comes into existence with all his gear, including scrolls, and therefore he has access to "free" castings of simulacrum and the other spells on his scrolls)
-His lich has been around for 1000 years.

I will happily ask him more details when I find him, but short of DM fiat, is there any build that can beat this guy?The simulacrums are irrelevant, and he's full of crap about how they work.

Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature.They can't cast spells from scrolls that don't exist. They can only be level 10.


At all times, the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner. It doesn't matter how many he has, if he isn't there then he can't control them.

All that has to happen is for there to be a good cleric with a high knowledge planes/religion. If his lich has been around for 1000 years, then he's famous, and would be a giant draw for adventurers and good-aligned heroes. They'll know that he has a demiplane, and would be able to find a way into it. He's basically unprotected because all those summoned creatures are eventually going to disperse because nothing is casting to continually summon them.

Unless he has his phylactery on him, he's toast.


Also, if someone wants to kill his form on the material plane, that's also going to hurt him. He'll take two permanent negative levels.

[awa]

it works on objects as long as the object is flesh in 3.5
pathfinder it looks like it only works on creatures not objects so an undead would be immune

[Darius Kane]

The only way to win is to not play.

[Acanous]

This isn't hard, people.

Gith Sword. Mind Blank. Persisted Invisibility.

Walk up to him, sever his thread.
He is dead, dead dead dead. No, he doesn't regenerate, no, he doesn't go back to his old body. Your thread is severed, you're gone, the end.

[awa]

if hes level 20 and doesn't have any way to detect invisible creatures he deserves to die.

but i don't think the gith sword works other have mentioned it only cuts the tether if the target is on the astral plane i don't have accesses to my books so i personally have no idea

[jmelesky]

A level 20 Ninja has a very nice ability: they can go invisible to everything, including true seeing. Build her with TWF and give her a nunchaku of disruption, and wail on the lich till it's destroyed. Or TWF + Quick Draw, and a slew of spell storing wakizashi all charged with halt undead or (for greater humiliation) command undead. Not visible means not targetable, so she's safe from immediate retaliation.

The lich will probably shift away before too many rounds have passed (once invisibility purge and true seeing don't work, for example), so maybe send five level 20 ninjas.

Alternately, send, say, 20 level 1 diviner wizards armed with wands of dazing magic missile (caster level 9). They're only 27kgp a pop (easy to buy 20 of them at level 20 WBL), and come with 50 charges. Diviners (like the lich) always act in the surprise round, and out of 100 missiles, the lich is bound to fail at least one of the saves. Now the lich is dazed for a round (undead are immune to stun, but not daze). Repeat. Lich is eternally dazed, takes force damage till dead.

This plan has the unfortunate property of being defeated by a shield spell, but the player didn't mention it as a permanent effect, so there you go. If it is up, 20 wands of dispel magic will help mitigate that problem. Both dispel magic and magic missile are medium range, so the wand squad can be appropriately spaced out to minimize AoE retaliation.

[Ravens_cry]

Considering you can cast flesh to stone on a dead body, which is technically an object, it should work on undead.

Nope. See target: one creature.
I made this mistake myself once, and somehow convinced the DM in my ignorance it worked, but it does not affect undead.

[Morcleon]

Nope. See target: one creature.
I made this mistake myself once, and somehow convinced the DM in my ignorance it worked, but it does not affect undead.

Use Glass Strike. It's like flesh to stone, but turns them to glass and works on undead (because it works on objects too).

[TypoNinja]

The simulacrums are irrelevant, and he's full of crap about how they work.
They can't cast spells from scrolls that don't exist. They can only be level 10.

It doesn't matter how many he has, if he isn't there then he can't control them.

All that has to happen is for there to be a good cleric with a high knowledge planes/religion. If his lich has been around for 1000 years, then he's famous, and would be a giant draw for adventurers and good-aligned heroes. They'll know that he has a demiplane, and would be able to find a way into it. He's basically unprotected because all those summoned creatures are eventually going to disperse because nothing is casting to continually summon them.

Unless he has his phylactery on him, he's toast.


Also, if someone wants to kill his form on the material plane, that's also going to hurt him. He'll take two permanent negative levels.

The simulacrum are illusions yes, but astral projection has a loop hole a mile wide in it that creates a duplicate of you if you use it to travel to another plane physically.

Picture the following. Sit in demi-plane, astral project, travel through the Astral to the Prime Material, manifest there.

There is now a copy of you on the demi-plane sitting there in stasis, while your astral projection just manifested a duplicate of you and your gear.

Now you travel back to your demi-plane by a means other than astral projection and do it again.

The best way to abuse this is to have a bunch of expensive scrolls on your person when you Project, have your astral projection cast them, then end the astral projection. You've gained the benefits of your expensive scrolls (like say wish) without using them up.

[Ravens_cry]

Use Glass Strike. It's like flesh to stone, but turns them to glass and works on undead (because it works on objects too).
There is that, though it's not as vindictive as either using the Undead sorcerer or the metamagic to wrest control of the character from the player with mind affecting effects.

[Morcleon]

There is that, though it's not as vindictive as either using the Undead sorcerer or the metamagic to wrest control of the character from the player with mind affecting effects.

Hit him with an Irresistable Disjunction. :smallamused:

[ZeroGear]

The simulacrum are illusions yes, but astral projection has a loop hole a mile wide in it that creates a duplicate of you if you use it to travel to another plane physically.

Picture the following. Sit in demi-plane, astral project, travel through the Astral to the Prime Material, manifest there.

There is now a copy of you on the demi-plane sitting there in stasis, while your astral projection just manifested a duplicate of you and your gear.

Now you travel back to your demi-plane by a means other than astral projection and do it again.

The best way to abuse this is to have a bunch of expensive scrolls on your person when you Project, have your astral projection cast them, then end the astral projection. You've gained the benefits of your expensive scrolls (like say wish) without using them up.

Close, but now what he did.
He as an item that lets hime astral project 1/day, he then did this:
-Astral project
-Create simulacrums of himself and bind outsiders using scrolls scrolls
-Dismiss astral projection
-Bring Simulacrum to demiplane
-Wait till next day and repeat.

He did this for 1000 years, exploiting the fact that the scrolls created on his astral projections do not deplete the originals he has on his actual body.
So he now has an army of Simulacrums and called creatures guarding his actual body on the demiplane while his Astral version waltzes around on the material one.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Let me think about this a bit more. I think I'm missing something.

[Carth]

Alright, so he has 365000 simulacrums sitting at his base. Just out of curiosity, assuming the simulacrums all have 20 hit dice, where did he get the 4 million gold to do all this?

It's 365,000 Gold for all of those Astral Projections.
It's 3,650,000 Gold for all of the Simulacrums.

Being a Lich does not grant you infinite money.

Wizards have plenty of ways to access infinite money, given his simulacrum shenanigans it's no surprise that he's also kicking WBL to the curb.

With the level of optimization being thrown around, this is a pointless challenge without the full build. Even then, all that'd end up being done is trying to create an even more optimized wizard. No wizard could probably have a 100% success rate though, so victory would probably mean winning more than 50% of the time.

[awa]

hes duplicating equipment which can be sold so the trick does give him infinite money.

the obvious answer is just wish the real body out of his hidey hole there is as far as i know no defense against that.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Wizards have plenty of ways to access infinite money, given his simulacrum shenanigans it's no surprise that he's also kicking WBL to the curb.

With the level of optimization being thrown around, this is a pointless challenge without the full build. Even then, all that'd end up being done is trying to create an even more optimized wizard. No wizard could probably have a 100% success rate though, so victory would probably mean winning more than 50% of the time.Nonononono.

Here are the obvious mistakes.
1. If a player is optimizing this much, and claiming to be invincible, you find out how he got all the money. Every last copper.
2. Why are you letting him declare that he is a 1000 years old, and has done all this?
3. You haven't introduced a Kas the Betrayer yet.

Side question, what level did he become a Lich/what are his ability scores?


hes duplicating equipment which can be sold so the trick does give him infinite money.

the obvious answer is just wish the real body out of his hidey hole there is as far as i know no defense against that.Actually, he can't sell it forever. The equipment vanishes after the projection is cancelled, meaning that he can only sell it to someone once. There are only so many vendors that will have that much money, and a Lich is a pretty noticeable personality to just walk into a town and sell what he has. There's a chance he would get noticed.

There is an obvious work around to this, though. He sells it once, waits 100 to 200 years, and then does the trick again.

Last questions:
As a DM, how strictly do they follow his orders? Do they "guard his body" as it don't interfere unless someone tries to get within 50 ft of the body/harm the body. Or do they "guard his body" in terms of attacking anything that enters the demiplane.

Does he astral project every time he goes out with his fellow adventurers?

[Scow2]

hes duplicating equipment which can be sold so the trick does give him infinite money.

the obvious answer is just wish the real body out of his hidey hole there is as far as i know no defense against that.

Mind Blank, which prevents spells from recognizing him.

Also - the Silver Sword can still be used to sever the cord of ANY astral-projection user - It remains attached even when a new body's manifested, connecting the original body with the new manifested one. You're still an astral traveller if you use Astral Projection to get anywhere, even if you're on another plane. And thus, you're still vulnerable to Githyanki Attacks.

I'm not sure what the point of multiple copies of your body would be, since all but one of them would be completely inert (The only way for the inert bodies to 'wake up' is to end the spell, removing the Astral Projections further down the line)

[Story]

The stuff he's done is already firmly in the realm of TO, so it's kind of stupid.

If you can get close to him, he dies. I doubt he can handle a Supernatural CL100+ Holy Word.

[Crake]

A level 20 Ninja has a very nice ability: they can go invisible to everything, including true seeing. Build her with TWF and give her a nunchaku of disruption, and wail on the lich till it's destroyed. Or TWF + Quick Draw, and a slew of spell storing wakizashi all charged with halt undead or (for greater humiliation) command undead. Not visible means not targetable, so she's safe from immediate retaliation.

The lich will probably shift away before too many rounds have passed (once invisibility purge and true seeing don't work, for example), so maybe send five level 20 ninjas.

Alternately, send, say, 20 level 1 diviner wizards armed with wands of dazing magic missile (caster level 9). They're only 27kgp a pop (easy to buy 20 of them at level 20 WBL), and come with 50 charges. Diviners (like the lich) always act in the surprise round, and out of 100 missiles, the lich is bound to fail at least one of the saves. Now the lich is dazed for a round (undead are immune to stun, but not daze). Repeat. Lich is eternally dazed, takes force damage till dead.

This plan has the unfortunate property of being defeated by a shield spell, but the player didn't mention it as a permanent effect, so there you go. If it is up, 20 wands of dispel magic will help mitigate that problem. Both dispel magic and magic missile are medium range, so the wand squad can be appropriately spaced out to minimize AoE retaliation.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but going ethereal doesn't make you immune to see invisibility. If you read the see invisibility description, you can actually see ethereal creatures. True seeing though won't help as you said.


Close, but now what he did.
He as an item that lets hime astral project 1/day, he then did this:
-Astral project
-Create simulacrums of himself and bind outsiders using scrolls scrolls
-Dismiss astral projection
-Bring Simulacrum to demiplane
-Wait till next day and repeat.

He did this for 1000 years, exploiting the fact that the scrolls created on his astral projections do not deplete the originals he has on his actual body.
So he now has an army of Simulacrums and called creatures guarding his actual body on the demiplane while his Astral version waltzes around on the material one.

How exactly is he binding those creatures infinitely? Called creatures typically aren't willing to serve for 1000 years. Even gated creatures aren't forced to do anything for longer than a round per level, after that you need to negotiate.

[awa]

read mind blank it only stops wish from acquiring info about your or affecting you mind it does not make you immune to the teleport aspect.

also if hes duplicating scrolls of wish he can just wish for money

[jmelesky]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but going ethereal doesn't make you immune to see invisibility. If you read the see invisibility description, you can actually see ethereal creatures. True seeing though won't help as you said.

The ninja isn't going ethereal. It's a core class feature called Hidden Master:


She can, as a standard action, cast greater invisibility on herself. While invisible in this way, she cannot be detected by any means, and not even invisibility purge, see invisibility, and true seeing can reveal her.

[Crake]

The ninja isn't going ethereal. It's a core class feature called Hidden Master:

Oh, whoops, I forgot this was a pathfinder thread and I was quoting the CV ninja >_<

[Immabozo]

so I see the best option is to make a planar Shepard, choose the elemental plan of fire, turn into an efreeti, have a fellow adventurer wish that all his summoned creatures on his demi plane to suddenly see him as a threat to the summoner and they all attack him. Grant said wish.

[Ravens_cry]

The ninja isn't going ethereal. It's a core class feature called Hidden Master:
Yeah, it's a lot of fun that. I only got to use it once, but it's a beaut. Buff up, go super invisible, planeshift in, find the dude, and rip the (un)living daylights out of him.

[ZeroGear]

How exactly is he binding those creatures infinitely? Called creatures typically aren't willing to serve for 1000 years. Even gated creatures aren't forced to do anything for longer than a round per level, after that you need to negotiate.

Good question, I'll ask him next time we meet.

[TypoNinja]

Nonononono.

Here are the obvious mistakes.
1. If a player is optimizing this much, and claiming to be invincible, you find out how he got all the money. Every last copper.
2. Why are you letting him declare that he is a 1000 years old, and has done all this?
3. You haven't introduced a Kas the Betrayer yet.

Side question, what level did he become a Lich/what are his ability scores?

Actually, he can't sell it forever. The equipment vanishes after the projection is cancelled, meaning that he can only sell it to someone once. There are only so many vendors that will have that much money, and a Lich is a pretty noticeable personality to just walk into a town and sell what he has. There's a chance he would get noticed.

There is an obvious work around to this, though. He sells it once, waits 100 to 200 years, and then does the trick again.

Last questions:
As a DM, how strictly do they follow his orders? Do they "guard his body" as it don't interfere unless someone tries to get within 50 ft of the body/harm the body. Or do they "guard his body" in terms of attacking anything that enters the demiplane.

Does he astral project every time he goes out with his fellow adventurers?

You don't sell your gear for infinite wealth, since that only pisses people off when it vanishes.

A scroll of wish provides infinite money in the form of simply wishing for piles of GP. Every time you project you get a free copy of whatever was on your person. With a few centuries to work your way up you probably have more than one.

Better yet, have a scroll of wish and a scroll of astral project. Then your astral projection gets to make an astral projection which can use the wish scroll.

The most common house rule I've seen is that any consumables that your astral projection consumes also vanish from the original. A sort of 'merged gear pool' to limit the obviously WBL breaking possibilities for astral projection.

[Noctani]

Alright, this guy has me frustrated and I and turning to you guys for advice.
The long and short of the story:
One of the guys that occasionally joins the group is what we call a Game Breaker, someone who can find ways to create characters with power levels beyond what should be possible. I will admit he does not do this all the time, but there is one character that he made (as just something for a 20th level challenge with access to all printed material) is this stupid lich of his. The thing that gets under my skin is that he claims that it is unbeatable, and I want to really make some build that will prove him wrong.

Here's what I know about the lich (I don't have access to its statistics):
-It is a 20th level diviner lich
-He has his own demiplane from which he manifests into the material plane using astral projection.
-The lich has the feat Thanatopic Spell, which bypasses resistances for his negative energy and level-drain spells
-He has a magic item that lets him use Astral Projection for free once per day
-He has used said magic item to create not only an army of Simulacrums of himself, but has also managed to summon several thousand creatures to protect his demiplane (he claims that every time he creates a projection, it comes into existence with all his gear, including scrolls, and therefore he has access to "free" castings of simulacrum and the other spells on his scrolls)
-His lich has been around for 1000 years.

I will happily ask him more details when I find him, but short of DM fiat, is there any build that can beat this guy?

Backstory: Someone this powerful will attract equally powerful enemies. Like gods, head clerics, paladins, and typical hero groups that kill gods. I'm talking about the Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal types (Yes, I know they didn't actually kill him and just took the portfolios). How about the heroes who killed Orcus? Kane(sp?), the ranger marribone(wrong sp), and King Gareth Dragonsbane.

Astral Projection and Simulacrum: I understand the players are the stars of the show. However, they also aren't the first stars existing in the universe. Why haven't other gods, liches, and other beings done the same thing prior this caster? The reason is it's not the way the world works. If astral projection and similacrum worked as many players interpret (as much latitude as possible) the entire realms of D&D would operate differently. Why wouldn't another god have done the same thing earlier? Oh yeah, that's not how the world operates. Here are some good reasons why these things don't work.

Common DM rulings and decisions:

Note: these are not "house rules". But rules not covered by any source material. House rules are made despite of source material or when source material covers an adequately covers an area. Although, adequately is often defined by the players, GM, or a combination of the two.

If a player tries to "break" the game through back story then I require him to go through several sub-scenarios to see if he makes it that far. Saying my character defeated all the enemies that tried to strike me down as I rose to power is easier said than done. I've only had one character try this. He failed, but loved the challenge and solo play.

These world laws are never particularly mentioned in the guide and fall under the DM to interpret. This is not DM fiat. DM fiat, is the GM is always right. GM wins. World laws are like gravity and apply to all players...even the GM. Granted, there are always exceptions.

Some DM's
Astral Projected selves are not the actual user. If the user doesn't lose experience for casting a spell then he doesn't gain experience for killing enemies. If an item is dropped it disappears and returns to the user after the spell is dispelled. Items picked up by the user and not connected with their stral cord during astral projection are left behind at the last known location of astral projection when dispelled or discontinued.

Some DM's
Astral Projection's are connected with the user so when the projection casts a spell the user loses the xp for casting the spell. If the projection kills someone he gains the experience. If an item is dropped, stolen, or disarmed it is left behind and no longer with the user. If the user picks up an item it is now connected to their astral cord and returns with the user.

Some DM's
Astral Projection's are connected with the users so when the projection casts a spell the user loses exp...even though the silver chord connects the projection and the caster, the projection is not actually the caster's physical body and doesn't gain experience from direct combat. If a weapon is dropped through astral projection it is not lost to the user. If an item is picked up through astral projection it is left at the last location of the user upon dispel or continuement.

"At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner. A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful."

Some DM's
simulacrums do not exercise any type of free will. They have to be given precise commands at all times. Example: If anyone without this badge comes near attack them. If the player walks in without the badge they attack the player. Defend this post. No player attacks the post, they just walk by the simulacrum and continue on to kill the lich. Even telepathic users can only control exert precise mental commands to multiple users at once.

Some DM's
Simulacrums are very close to the actual person in thought and mind. When created they don't even know they are a fake. They have their own mind and thoughts. They are under the absolute command of the caster when that control is exercised but this creates another form of slavery. Most casters are eventually betrayed by their simulacrums, do not end up serving them for long periods, or are dispelled. All Simulacrums are NPCs. Have fun. If they are they are an undead ambitous lich type...just enjoy.

Selling magic item's that disappear to people with large pocket books is like playing with fire. People who are really interested in purchasing magical items (who don't just intend of killing you and taking it) are likely to have casters confirm it's authenticity and trust me, sometimes he would have met people who intended to kill him and others who sought revenge.

If your character wants to do this. I'm fine with it. But have him go through a 5-7 sessions of a solo sessions to see if he survives.

If you don't like any of these suggestions. Give him exactly what he wants. An epic battle against an army of holy warriors who have come to cleanse his filth from the realms or whatever plot point you want to start with. Sure you could make a character to go 1 shot him, but where's the fun in that?

[UnjustCustos]

Vecna Blooded. Then wait for him to try and find you. Step 1, completed.

[Silva Stormrage]

Okay, well this sounds like the player is mostly just abusing astral projection and trying to hit things with negative levels... To be completely honest whats to prevent YOU from getting a mass army of infinite astral projections? Its a singular spell he can't say "Oh your just copying me" because if astral projection ACTUALLY worked that way EVERYONE would use it to ludicrous degrees.

Since you mentioned pun pun I will assume 3.5 is allowed, if so this build can be defeated by a Spell To Power Erudite.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177889

You can grant your self infinite standard actions in one action with the Mad Minute trick. Get metamind to give you unlimited power points for those actions. You can now cast infinite spells/power in 1 round.

Thats not all, show up as a Dire Tortoise, so that you automatically get a surprise round. It really doesn't matter what he has up he gets surprised. With the standard action from the surprise round kill everyone with infinite actions. Then take his magic item of infinite astral projections. Since you get infinite actions and your astral projections do too then you can just fill the entire universe with astral projected minions. Find a way to bind his soul or destroy his phylactery. Or maybe summon something, adjust it's memory so that it loves the character. Then use loves pain infinite times until all of his characters are dead. Or if you are worried about the phylactery get one of his astral projections in front of you or somewhat near you so you can cast Soul's Treasure Lost (BoVD) on him infinite times. This will destroy every single item that the character has, ever.


So ya, his build isn't unbeatable. Or really anywhere close. The build is essentially something that summons infinite level 20 wizards that just sit in a demi plane. So in order to beat it you need something with infinite actions or the ability to kill infinite creatures.

[Fable Wright]

I will happily ask him more details when I find him, but short of DM fiat, is there any build that can beat this guy?

I have an idea, but what exactly do you mean by DM fiat? Making a build whose purpose is to have the Lich piss off the Lady of Pain, if she's still around in PF, would take care of him effectively. Tricking him into destroying books in the Library of the Lady could work. A Diplomancer who raises the Lich to godhood, then converts a Dabus to the new religion?

[Squirrel_Dude]

read mind blank it only stops wish from acquiring info about your or affecting you mind it does not make you immune to the teleport aspect.

also if hes duplicating scrolls of wish he can just wish for moneyThat's actually not true. In Pathfinder, you can't wish for a mundane item worth up to 25,000 gold. There are much more specific limits on the spell now. It actually costs 25,000 gold to use now.


How exactly is he binding those creatures infinitely? Called creatures typically aren't willing to serve for 1000 years. Even gated creatures aren't forced to do anything for longer than a round per level, after that you need to negotiate.I would also ask what types of creatures he is binding to his plane. Nothing specific, just what general type of heading do they fit under (demons, devils, azata, hellhounds, angels, etc.)?

[Carth]

You're going to need to ask for the whole build for this to be worthwhile at all.

[Pickford]

Alright, this guy has me frustrated and I and turning to you guys for advice.
The long and short of the story:
One of the guys that occasionally joins the group is what we call a Game Breaker, someone who can find ways to create characters with power levels beyond what should be possible. I will admit he does not do this all the time, but there is one character that he made (as just something for a 20th level challenge with access to all printed material) is this stupid lich of his. The thing that gets under my skin is that he claims that it is unbeatable, and I want to really make some build that will prove him wrong.

Here's what I know about the lich (I don't have access to its statistics):
-It is a 20th level diviner lich
-He has his own demiplane from which he manifests into the material plane using astral projection.
-The lich has the feat Thanatopic Spell, which bypasses resistances for his negative energy and level-drain spells
-He has a magic item that lets him use Astral Projection for free once per day
-He has used said magic item to create not only an army of Simulacrums of himself, but has also managed to summon several thousand creatures to protect his demiplane (he claims that every time he creates a projection, it comes into existence with all his gear, including scrolls, and therefore he has access to "free" castings of simulacrum and the other spells on his scrolls)
-His lich has been around for 1000 years.

I will happily ask him more details when I find him, but short of DM fiat, is there any build that can beat this guy?

I suppose I would use a Mordenkainen's Disjunction on him. As Lich's are inherently magical, he would cease to be anything but a corpse.

[awa]

undead have no special weakness to disjunction (nor constructs)

[TuggyNE]

These world laws are never particularly mentioned in the guide and fall under the DM to interpret. This is not DM fiat. DM fiat, is the GM is always right. GM wins. World laws are like gravity and apply to all players...even the GM. Granted, there are always exceptions.

I'm not clear on how these are not DM fiat, albeit less noxious than deliberately unfair/inconsistent rulings that penalize players for no reason. Similarly, changing the net effect of a given spell or feat or other ability, whether by changing published rules text or by adding new rules, is a houserule.


If the user doesn't lose experience for casting a spell then he doesn't gain experience for killing enemies.

There are no XP costs for spells in PF at all. Also, the wording is strange; it makes it sound as though fireball, for example, would gain a caster no XP, since it costs no XP to cast, even if the caster defeated an entire army with it.


(assorted houserules for astral projection and simulacrum)

None of these really address the problems with those two spells, only introducing a few new hoops to jump through. In particular, it's still possible to astral project with scrolls already held in hand/gear and thus create temporary copies that don't affect the permanent versions, and it's still possible to force simulacra to do all kinds of various useful tasks (contributing spell slots for buffs, perhaps, or simply blasting intruders by force of numbers) even if they're made mindless or independent (how can they rebel if they're actually under absolute control?).

[Pickford]

undead have no special weakness to disjunction (nor constructs)

They're magical in nature, once that magic goes away they will cease to function. Same would hold true for a construct. Disjunction is an insta-gib for both.

[TuggyNE]

They're magical in nature, once that magic goes away they will cease to function. Same would hold true for a construct. Disjunction is an insta-gib for both.

Given that anti-magic field explicitly doesn't affect them in the slightest, I'm not sure this is true.

Furthermore, disjunction's text states
All magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell, except for those that you carry or touch, are disjoined. That is, spells and spell-like effects are separated into their individual components (ending the effect as a dispel magic spell does), and each permanent magic item must make a successful Will save or be turned into a normal item. […] You also have a 1% chance per caster level of destroying an antimagic field. […] Even artifacts are subject to disjunction, though there is only a 1% chance per caster level of actually affecting such powerful items. So it explicitly states what it affects, and "creatures made by instantaneous magic" are not included in that list, any more than they could be affected by dispel magic or sensed by detect magic.

D&D magic is weird and unintuitive, because it can create things that are inherently magical and yet resist any attempt to detect, suppress, or destroy that lingering magic. See also wall of iron (especially with Invisible Spell) and the weirdness that is the orb line.

[Pickford]

Tugg, I'm not disagreeing what the spell states. What I'm suggesting is that Magical constructs and a Lich are inherently magical effects. Therefore depriving them of all magical effects is reducing them to mundane items, ending their existence. (Flesh golem just becomes a flesh puppet, clay golem stops being anything, etc....)

[Morcleon]

Tugg, I'm not disagreeing what the spell states. What I'm suggesting is that Magical constructs and a Lich are inherently magical effects. Therefore depriving them of all magical effects is reducing them to mundane items, ending their existence. (Flesh golem just becomes a flesh puppet, clay golem stops being anything, etc....)

If this were so, then they would become inactive as soon as they entered an antimagic field. Magical constructs and lichs are creatures, not magical effects.

By your logic, dragons should collapse under their own weight as soon as they cast AMF.

[CTrees]

Ultimately the question is... he had a thousand years to prepare. For fairness, you should also either have that same thousand years to prepare, of you should have a thousand years to defeat him. The only special thing we know right now is that he has an army. Uh... so? With the same time you should also be able to either have an army or whittle down his through attrition. We'll also assume you have the same unlimited gold he has, from one trick or another. We're back to "nice army, but with the same prep time I can do it too." Hell, chain gating still works in PF, just do that repeatedly!

[awa]

undead and constructs are creatures not effects disjunction's does not affect all magical things it affects specific magical things undead and constructs are not listed amoung them.

[TopCheese]

Unless the same thing is happening in another gaming group (like exactly the same thing) I now know the screen name here on giantitp that is in my gaming group!

It is like finding out Mr Jenkins is wearing a rubber ghost mask before scooby and the gang does.

If I'm right then the following applies, if I'm wrong then the coincidence is crazy...

Just so everyone knows, the guy who made the lich isn't rubbing it in ppl's faces or anything and seems to be showing how crazy of a build you can make for said one shot. If you think the lich is bad you should see his err "follower's" abilities (another guy who is in the group). The guy is made to convert people and does a great job at it.

Do note that neither are playing in the D&D game we are currently in, actually they aren't playing D&D at all. They tend to play different tabletop rpgs while our D&D game is going on in the same room.

I'll need to show him this thread since if he is on giantitp then he can defend his build or at least build upon it to make it even better.

If anything else it really shows how screwed up 3.5/PF rules are :p

Later,

[Immabozo]

I still say that there is no build that cannot be beaten by GRANTING wishes of a humanoid friend and controlling the exact interpretation from the stated wish

[ZeroGear]

Everyone, thank you for contributing to this thread.
You have all given me interesting insights as to how I could continue talking to this individual about finding holes in his "unbeatable" lich.
While this was, admittedly, started because I was annoyed at myself that I could not come up with ideas as to prove that everything, no matter how well it was built, can be beaten, I realize that some people seem to have gotten the wrong idea and the topic has (slightly) drifted away form brainstorming.
Cheese is right, the player does not rub this lich in peoples faces (granted, he does keep saying that it could beat the challenge our group is facing, and that does get old) and I feel that I've somehow inadvertently blown this subject out of proportion.
Therefore, I would ask that this thread be locked.
Thank you all, you have been an interesting lot to play with.

[Pickford]

If this were so, then they would become inactive as soon as they entered an antimagic field. Magical constructs and lichs are creatures, not magical effects.

By your logic, dragons should collapse under their own weight as soon as they cast AMF.

Anti-magic field would only suppress, Disjunction is both a higher level spell and explicitly more powerful.

Anti-magic field also has no effect on artifacts, but Disjunction can make them mundane.

Edit:

A construct is an animated object or artificially constructed creature.

So, constructs are animated by animate object:


Animated objects come in all sizes, shapes, and colors. They owe their existence as creatures to spells such as animate objects or similar supernatural abilities.

No magic, no construct. Disjunction is a construct killer.

[Scow2]

Ultimately the question is... he had a thousand years to prepare. For fairness, you should also either have that same thousand years to prepare, of you should have a thousand years to defeat him. The only special thing we know right now is that he has an army. Uh... so? With the same time you should also be able to either have an army or whittle down his through attrition. We'll also assume you have the same unlimited gold he has, from one trick or another. We're back to "nice army, but with the same prep time I can do it too." Hell, chain gating still works in PF, just do that repeatedly!

He's had thousands of years to prepare for what? There are always new threats constantly rising and falling, some squelched by him some fizzling out on their own, and some making progress against his machinations and exposing vulnerabilities he's not even aware of yet. Predicting the future is a VERY difficult task, and it's no guarantee that a random bunch of four to six people won't completely blow it all up anyway - There is no way to predict how the dice will fall, or cards will be dealt.

[Origomar]

Do you mean another character to beat him or just something that beats him?


I think a higher divine rank god would work.

[TuggyNE]

Anti-magic field would only suppress, Disjunction is both a higher level spell and explicitly more powerful.

Anti-magic field also has no effect on artifacts, but Disjunction can make them mundane.

That's plausible enough in the abstract. Unfortunately, without specific rules text, there's no support for that — it's just an assumption based on your idea of how magic works.

There are several different ways something magical can be immune to dispel magic or antimagic field: it can be an artifact, it can be the result of instantaneous magic that leaves a product behind, or it can be deific. Disjunction notes that it works on artifacts (sometimes). There is no direct equivalence between the workings of artifacts and instantaneous conjurations, and the spell does not attempt to create any. (Why should there be? Artifacts register to detect magic, for example, but a wall of iron does not.) Even if it did create such an equivalence, it would be a 1% per caster level chance of destroying a construct/undead, not a guaranteed kill.


So, constructs are animated by animate object:

Some constructs are created by animate objects, yes. Specifically, the ones labeled Animated Objects. No other construct in any book that I'm aware of has the same creation mechanic. Don't confuse a special case for a general rule.


No magic, no construct. Disjunction is a construct killer.

Animated objects can be dispelled, which is why disjunction works on them. Other constructs, such as Inevitables, can't be, and disjunction does not work on them.