Justice League Movie is getting New Writers

[GenericGuy]

http://badassdigest.com/2013/02/07/justice-league-may-be-looking-for-new-writers/

Because the current script was apparently really really bad, and I'm sad to say I'm not surprised :smallfrown:.

[Lupus753]

I never even heard of plans for a Justice League movie until now. Too bad it will be too much to expect a next The Avengers, given all the news.

[MLai]

Get whoever is currently writing Young Justice to write the script for this movie. Problem solved.

Maybe they can make Green Lantern and Superman not suck.

[Metahuman1]

As long as they actually GET a decent cast, directors and writers, they could pull it off. After all, you only need like five minutes to explain wonder woman, Everyone already knows Batman, Superman and now Green Lantern, Flash only takes another five minutes to explain, and Aquaman takes fifteen minutes simply because no one knows anything about him aside from talks to fish.

Personally though, they need to pick up form marvel and get people that actually care about the source material in charge of the project. I've heard the Wackosky bros. offered as an option for writers/directors, that would be a good starting point.

For actors, don't go to A list stars, go to people that can look and play the part. Acting is one part, looking good is another, but there are other important things. For example, sorry, but Wonder Woman needs to be at minimum, bare freaking minimum, of 5'11, and should have some serious martial arts and acrobatics experience in her background. Just an example since I have a feeling there's the best chance of them screwing her up by looking for a Hollywood A or B Lister.

[slayerx]

As long as they actually GET a decent cast, directors and writers, they could pull it off. After all, you only need like five minutes to explain wonder woman, Everyone already knows Batman, Superman and now Green Lantern, Flash only takes another five minutes to explain, and Aquaman takes fifteen minutes simply because no one knows anything about him aside from talks to fish.


I think it would be harder than that... Wonder woman has never had a film; aside from those who watched the cartoons and read the comics how well is she known. Furthermore, you don't only have to explain her origins but you also have explain how she gets together with the rest of the team which means explaining why she left Themyscira... i might say the same for green lantern considering how badly his movie turned out. You don't just need origins, you need to get them all together and find time for proper characterization... Heck the villain will also require characterization and build up...Can't really just slam people with a wall of exposition as that can ruin the films pacing; need to keep things feeling natural. Its easier said than done; very easy to screw it all up and rush everything. Heck that's kinda what it almost sounds like what might have happened to this latest script; perhaps it was trying to do too much and coming out as a mess.

That was the nice thing about the avengers approach to having multiple films first... All of the origins, their characterization and the reason why they are where they are were pretty much covered in their films. With that out of the way, all they had to do was bring them all together and then they could focus on the plot.

Honestly, it feels like DC or Warner Bros. saw the success of the avengers and are really just rushing into their own big team up movie. Marvel really put their all into making avengers work; planning for that film probably started when they were working on Iron man; so we're talking like 6-7 years from conception to finished product... now DC thinks they can do what marvel did, but in less than half the time

A batman or superman film would not really be necessary for a JL film since they are so well known, but they could serve to atleast help hype it up... heck maybe give us a world's finest film... But i think they should really get out a wonder woman film a long with a GOOD green lantern film, before they go into a JL film.



For actors, don't go to A list stars, go to people that can look and play the part. Acting is one part, looking good is another, but there are other important things. For example, sorry, but Wonder Woman needs to be at minimum, bare freaking minimum, of 5'11, and should have some serious martial arts and acrobatics experience in her background. Just an example since I have a feeling there's the best chance of them screwing her up by looking for a Hollywood A or B Lister.

Yes i feel the same way... though granted, i don't really know acting so while i could find those who might look the part i can't be sure they could act the part.

[JCarter426]

I think it would be harder than that... Wonder woman has never had a film; aside from those who watched the cartoons and read the comics how well is she known.
I'd say she's a lot better known than Green Lantern, even after the film.

Strike that, the film doesn't even factor in because nobody saw it. :smalltongue:


Honestly, it feels like DC or Warner Bros. saw the success of the avengers and are really just rushing into their own big team up movie.
Well, that's most certainly not what happened. They were trying to do a Justice League film long before Disney purchased Marvel or Marvel Studios started their whole thing. Warner Brothers is just horribly incompetent is all.

Ok, yes, it is a difficult project. But despite all odds they have managed to produce successful, popular Justice League cartoons - scratch that, not just cartoons; Smallvile counts too - on TV for years, which they micromanage to death and/or abruptly cancel.

Regarding the whole issue of introducing all the heroes and showing their origins and such in one film, I'm going to be a contrarian and say that's the easier way. It's hard to take several unrelated films (as far as production is concerned) and coordinate them into a single crossover film. Even if you have something like that in mind, it's hard to convince the actors to sign on for a sequel up front. And it's certainly hard to convince the audience that they must watch seven or so films before they even think about seeing the big one, especially if a few of those are about characters they've never heard of. It's easier to introduce lesser known characters to the audience in an ensemble setting. It's easier to convince an actor who just played a minor character in a highly successful film to sign on for a sequel with them as the star. In general it's still hard, though.

[Kitten Champion]

I'm not hopeful. Even if the Superman movie is half as successful as the Dark Knight trilogy, it would be a serious contortion act for the writers to try to fit in an impossible amount of information into a relatively tiny box of time and make the average person know what the hell was going on.

You can say they only need "five minutes", but I have no appreciation for a characters with five minutes of back story to them. They have all the weight of red shirts, and for anyone who's disinterested in comics all the recognition of a Star Trek extra.

If DC wants to make a Justice League, they need to prove that they can hold water without Nolan's particular expertise... or figure out a way to get him to do all their movies. Which is unlikely in either case.

[Mx.Silver]

I don't really know much about the League outside of the cartoon series (which was good, so hopefully they'll get some of the writers from that). The big challenge this film is going to face though will be comparisons to The Avengers - which it will really need to set itself apart from. So ideally they should try to avoid something that could be summarised as 'some American dudes and a woman fight off an alien invasion'.





Well, that's most certainly not what happened. They were trying to do a Justice League film long before Disney purchased Marvel or Marvel Studios started their whole thing. Warner Brothers is just horribly incompetent is all.

While they may have been trying to do a Justice League film in the past, the reason they're trying to do this one now probably has quite a lot to do with The Avengers (and how much money it made).

[MLai]

X-men 1 and 2 were good blockbusters, and those didn't need any lead-in films, and nobody who didn't read comics/ watch cartoons knew anything about them.

OTOH, you don't need to read comics/ watch cartoons to know who Batman/ Superman/ WWoman/ GLantern are. Heck if you watched Smallville and spin-offs you'll also know Green Arrow and Flash.

[JCarter426]

While they may have been trying to do a Justice League film in the past, the reason they're trying to do this one now probably has quite a lot to do with The Avengers (and how much money it made).
...which is the same reason they were trying to do one before... because it would make a lot of money. :smallconfused:

[Aotrs Commander]

Smacks to me of them perhaps previously trying to concentrate on making the film "accessible" (I believe I've stated on enough occasions that there is actually nothing wrong with starting characters in medis res, so I won't belabour that point) at the expense of actually making a good film. (As opposed to what they seem to do with their cartoons.)

I mean, you're not gonna pull Young Justice off inside two or even three hours, but it really ought not be beyond the Wit of Man to expand something like the Justice League pilot into a film with double the running time. That pretty much introduced everyone except Supes and Bats, didn't it? Aside from maybe a cameo in the aforementioned's series (I'm not sure). Certainly, it was the first time I was introduced to Flash, GL, Hawkgirl and MM (and I only really knew Wonder Woman by reputation and that dodgy eighties TV show I had vague memories of).

[Mx.Silver]

...which is the same reason they were trying to do one before... because it would make a lot of money. :smallconfused:

Really? What was the multi-bilion dollar grossing superhero crossover film that prompted execs to say 'Hey, we have superheros, why can't we get some of that?' that was out during the other times they were supposedly trying to make a league film? Because that reasoning is why the studio are pushing a league film now.

[JCarter426]

None, that's my point. They were pushing for it before there was one. :smallconfused:

Smacks to me of them perhaps previously trying to concentrate on making the film "accessible" (I believe I've stated on enough occasions that there is actually nothing wrong with starting characters in medis res, so I won't belabour that point) at the expense of actually making a good film. (As opposed to what they seem to do with their cartoons.)

I mean, you're not gonna pull Young Justice off inside two or even three hours, but it really ought not be beyond the Wit of Man to expand something like the Justice League pilot into a film with double the running time. That pretty much introduced everyone except Supes and Bats, didn't it? Aside from maybe a cameo in the aforementioned's series (I'm not sure). Certainly, it was the first time I was introduced to Flash, GL, Hawkgirl and MM (and I only really knew Wonder Woman by reputation and that dodgy eighties TV show I had vague memories of).
I don't think full origin stories for everyone is necessary either, for the record. And I agree it shouldn't really be that hard. At the start of Justice League, only Batman, Superman, and the Flash had ever appeared in the DCAU, along with a different Green Lantern. So that's Wonder Woman, Hawkgirl, and the Martian Manhunter all introduced early on in what was only a 65 or so minute story. Only Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman had their origin stories in that episode. John Stewart and Hawkgirl were just quickly introduced as other known heroes that decided to help out. So it can be done, because it has been done. Granted that wasn't one of the show's best stories, but it got the point across.

[Traab]

On the subject of finding the right actors, am I the only one cringing at the idea of them approaching lucy lawless for the role of wonder woman? I would honestly see it as a palette swap if they did that, maybe a xena version of hercules in new york. I dont think I could ever take her seriously in the role of wonder woman, and I seriously worry about casting taking the lazy route out. "Hey, she played what amounts to an amazon princess for years! Lets just get her into spandex instead of leather armor, give her some metal bracelets, and call it a day!"

*EDIT* As far as origin stories, I agree, we dont need them for all the characters. What would be a good idea however, is to release a movie to setup the eventual crossover. Like they did for the marvel films where we kept seeing the overlap between characters, even if only in last second short scenes where fury or whoever approaches another person. Even something as simple as say, a superman flick, where at the end he stumbles across some mysterious and threatening clue of a future problem that could go global in scale. Or have a batman movie that mentions dc areas like metropolis. Even something as simple as a background tv news story about superman and editorializing about why metropolis gets the ultimate boy scout while they get a violent mysterious vigilante. Whatever. Basically, something to link the stories and worlds together.

*EDIT EDIT* One last thing that MUST be included in the justice league film. A cameo of stan lee asking a random person for directions because he got lost. I dont know if there is a single face to dc comics like stan lee is to marvel, but that would be bonus points if thats who he is asking.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I get the feeling that this is just one more sign that the JL movie is doomed.

[Kitten Champion]

X-men 1 and 2 were good blockbusters, and those didn't need any lead-in films, and nobody who didn't read comics/ watch cartoons knew anything about them.

OTOH, you don't need to read comics/ watch cartoons to know who Batman/ Superman/ WWoman/ GLantern are. Heck if you watched Smallville and spin-offs you'll also know Green Arrow and Flash.

All the X-Men have relatively the same origin story. Spend half and hour explaining how the world works and the general tone, and you've got it down --- and they had three films to build up some drama and character development. Even then those films felt rushed, part of the reason they thought people could watch a Wolverine Origins movie. At any rate, X-Men is more about the world than the characters, who are largely interchangeable.

[Metahuman1]

It didn't help that the first two were good but then it completely fell apart on the third one. Though personally, I'd have let Jean stay dead awhile longer and left her out of Xmen 3 and done Juggernaut OR apocolips OR the cure story arch and then done a 4th with her after using a teaser scene at the end of number 3.

[Mordar]

You can say they only need "five minutes", but I have no appreciation for a characters with five minutes of back story to them. They have all the weight of red shirts, and for anyone who's disinterested in comics all the recognition of a Star Trek extra.

Five minutes might be a bit understated, but...

I have literally polled a cross-section of comic book non-fans over the last two weeks in response to a previous Justice League thread. I asked if they could name 5 heroes and if yes, 10, and so on to get a sense of what they thought their exposure/knowledge might be. I then asked them to name five. With the exception of two (both of which were big movie fans, it turns out), all of them responded with Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman (the other two answers were almost always Spiderman, Hulk or Ironman. One woman mentioned Catwoman). The two who were big movie fans riffed out Avengers.

The point? People know Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. Don't need the details on Krypton, Gotham or Themis-however you spell it. Got our three pillars, provide your limited backstory time on whichever 2 others you want to grab (Green Lantern? Flash? Aquaman? Just stay away from Martian Manhunter or any other aliens, cyborgs or non-human entities). Rev it up and let it rip.

Earn the audience's investment and appreciation with on-screen activity, not exposition of their past. It's worked for tons of action heroes, westerns, rom-com stars and more!

- M

[MLai]

The point? People know Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman. Don't need the details. Got our three pillars, provide your limited backstory time on whichever 2 others you want to grab (Green Lantern? Flash? Aquaman? Just stay away from Martian Manhunter or any other aliens, cyborgs or non-human entities).
This type of need is the perfect time to introduce a hero's background using his conflict with a villainous foil. You can use that for one of your lesser hero add-ons and that can be the movie.

Green Lantern? Have the threat be Sinestro (along with an intergalactic gang) coming to Earth. Too big for him to handle alone.
MM? Have the threat be an evil Martian faction secretly infiltrating Earth. MM needs help.

It's fine if you want to use one of the "weirder" heroes if you use this method. The time you DO NOT need to use this method is when your hero is somebody like Superman. Why Zod again? AGAIN?

[slayerx]

X-men 1 and 2 were good blockbusters, and those didn't need any lead-in films, and nobody who didn't read comics/ watch cartoons knew anything about them.


Rather a different situation. As Kitten Champion said they have the same general origin. I mean the important facts to cover is how/why do they have powers and why they where they need to be to become part of the team. With the x-men, these questions are explained in the setting; the world is filled with people who are born with super powers, they are discriminated against, and xavier's school exists to teach and protect them. Sure you can go deeper into each of the character's backstories, but that is enough to get your story going.

Other teams however like Justice League and Avengers are a bit more difficult since each of the members have different powers and abilities and different reasons for fighting... explaining each one takes time. I wouldn't say its impossible, but it is far more difficult than people think and very easy to screw up.



None, that's my point. They were pushing for it before there was one. :smallconfused:

I don't think full origin stories for everyone is necessary either, for the record. And I agree it shouldn't really be that hard. At the start of Justice League, only Batman, Superman, and the Flash had ever appeared in the DCAU, along with a different Green Lantern. So that's Wonder Woman, Hawkgirl, and the Martian Manhunter all introduced early on in what was only a 65 or so minute story. Only Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman had their origin stories in that episode. John Stewart and Hawkgirl were just quickly introduced as other known heroes that decided to help out. So it can be done, because it has been done. Granted that wasn't one of the show's best stories, but it got the point across.

I feel the DCAU is something of a false equivalence... The first episode for JL was meant for a TV show and is not really what i feel would make for a blockbuster film. A TV episode doesn't need to stand on its own because it has an entire series to iron out the details. People go into it with that expectation.


Five minutes might be a bit understated, but...

I have literally polled a cross-section of comic book non-fans over the last two weeks in response to a previous Justice League thread. I asked if they could name 5 heroes and if yes, 10, and so on to get a sense of what they thought their exposure/knowledge might be. I then asked them to name five. With the exception of two (both of which were big movie fans, it turns out), all of them responded with Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman (the other two answers were almost always Spiderman, Hulk or Ironman. One woman mentioned Catwoman). The two who were big movie fans riffed out Avengers.


Two problems... First just because someone is not a comic fan does not mean they are not super hero fans. Also just being able to name a character, doesn't mean you actually know anything about them.

Second, if you conducted the poll on THESE forums, the added problem there is that you are conducting your poll not with the general audience, but with a niche'. We are gamers, fans of cartoons, fantasy, sci-fi and so on... even if we are not fans of a particular bit of pop culture, there is a good chance they already know more than a bit about it; more than what a more general audience knows. These forums can't really tell you how much the average movie goer knows about a character. A really great movie doesn't just cater to the existing audience but is able to add to the audience while still respecting its source material. I feel like that's why superman and batman because all of their various successful films and shows had been adding to their audiences allowing them to become more mainstream.

[Hawk7915]

It's fine if you want to use one of the "weirder" heroes if you use this method. The time you DO NOT need to use this method is when your hero is somebody like Superman. Why Zod again? AGAIN?

From a storytelling perspective, Zod makes a lot of sense to me. If you want to challenge the man of steel with a knock-down, drag-out fight that doesn't require "oops, Kryptonite!" or "oops, Magic!" or "oops, Deus Ex Machina", it makes sense to use Zod and use him early. Zod has all Superman's powers, but Superman is young and naive and Zod is an extremely experienced and ruthless Kryptonian general. Save your mind games (Luthor) and deus ex machinas (Doomsday) and cosmic-level threats (Darkseid) for sequels, because if you start with them you run out of room for Superman to grow too fast.

Plus, my anecdotal gut feeling says that Zod probably makes the top 10 most well-known villains in comics for a lay audience. He is significantly more recognizable than anyone in Superman's gallery except obviously Luthor and maybe Bizarro.

Anyway, on a JLA movie: It boggles my mind how a company can have the two hands down most recognizable, franchisable, and popular super heroes on Earth and utterly fail to pull together an ensemble movie. Given WB's track record and this news, however, I'm not holding my breath that we'll ever see a good live action JLA movie, and I strongly doubt it'll be watchable if we do.

[Kitten Champion]

I think back story is very important, it's what separates a Schumacher from a Nolan. It's why the Superhero aesthetic in the last decade has been more than corny, insubstantial, and childish crap.

[Devonix]

I think back story is very important, it's what separates a Schumacher from a Nolan. It's why the Superhero aesthetic in the last decade has been more than corny, insubstantial, and childish crap.

And then there are the times that the backstory done bad is what turns a good story into corny childish crap.

It's something optional It can help or hurt depending on how it's done.

[JCarter426]

I feel the DCAU is something of a false equivalence... The first episode for JL was meant for a TV show and is not really what i feel would make for a blockbuster film. A TV episode doesn't need to stand on its own because it has an entire series to iron out the details. People go into it with that expectation.
It wasn't one TV episode; it was the first three episodes, and they all formed a little story arc that mostly stands on its own. It's a little different in that people know for sure there are going to be more episodes, but people are always expecting sequels nowadays anyway, particular with superhero films. Furthermore, the first episode of a TV show is very different from any random episode. They have also done a few animated films, some origin stories, some not. Though most of those were based on existing comic storylines. The point is there are people working for Warner Brothers right now, who have been working for them for years, churning out DC content in a similar format.

[Kitten Champion]

And then there are the times that the backstory done bad is what turns a good story into corny childish crap.

It's something optional It can help or hurt depending on how it's done.

Anything done bad will be bad. I don't see the other option as comparable, without explanation you're going to be relying on cliche.

[Joran]

Sounds like a job for J.J. Abrahms. What's one more geek holy franchise to save?

Or maybe Joss Whedon; he was interested in a Wonder Woman movie and a proven handler of superhero teams...

Does suck that DC can't get its act straight; I liked the Justice League TV show.

[Aotrs Commander]

The need to explain backstory in modern media has always utterly mystified me. It isn't necessary at all (and until the last ten or so years, wasn't paid all that much attention to). Good writing and characterisation is good writing and characterisation. You don't necessarily need to see who the character was to appreiciate who they are (and when this origin is largely to explain how they got special powers, it's even more unnecessary to spend buckets of time on it.) You can get away with minimising or even just ignoring it altogether.

And, moreover, TV shows do this all the time. Think of how many backstories of the character get explored in the first episode. Sometimes, one or two of the character's backstories were important to the plot (but were explained briefly, not pulled out in detail) - such as Commander Sinclair in Babylon 5, or Jack O'Neill in the Stargate movie, or say, Sisko in Deep Space 9 - but not all of them. I don't think anyone got much backstory in Encounter at Farpoint in TNG, for example, and it's literally taken until the pseido-reboot before we really looked at Kirk's onscreen.

A character's origin doesn't need to be a whole story, a brief explanation if one is really required is all that you need.

Heck, seriously, ask yourself how often have you ended up picking something up part-way through and then only later going back to see how it started.

Case in point - I started watching Naruto one day when I was ill out of boredom, and I started at what I would later find out was the start of the second Chuunin exam, the forest of death. Wherein the story was following about eighteen characters (in groups of three), plus supporting cast, and I had no freaking clue what was going on. That didn't stop it being sufficiently enjoyable I kept coming back day after day to see what happened, until I was throughly hooked. (Funnily enough, the same happen with Pokemon...) I can say similar things about nearly every cartoon or TV show I watch nowadays - the number I caught from the very first episode are vanishingly small.

I work on the basis that if your movie writers are incapable of writing to at least the standard that most cartoons can manage, they probably should go and find a new job...



Come to that, whatever did happen to starting in media res anyway? Thinking about it, all the recent superhero movies I can think of that I've seen started out slow, rather than with a bang, and then some exposition later after the first action scene... (Something you almost always get with cartoons; the more I look at it, the more I'm starting to think maybe that the "contraints" on the cartoons caused by having to nominally "write for children" (sic) (e.g. Justice League, Young Justice, 1990s X-Men/Spider-Man, Centurions1, Avatar) actually lead them to being better for it; well in some cases, until editiorial mandate set in, but that was usually further down the line.)



1Point Centurions actually told backstory of characters? Five part season finale. Okay, probably not the best way to end the series - and as an extreme an example as I'm aware of! - I'll grant you, but it proven how really unecessary it was to enjoy the show...

[MLai]

I agree with our resident lich. Your average movie protag often needs no backstories, and the movie plot is told in media res. The reason superheroes in particular seem to need backstories, is due to the opinion that something needs to be said regarding their powers. Because their situations aren't ordinary situations; you can't just show "this is a middle-aged cop going through a divorce" and expect ppl to understand his entire character.

However, this just isn't true with the pillars of the JL. Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman absolutely needs no time wasted on backstory. Everybody knows. And even if somehow somebody doesn't know, their powers and backstories are so straightforward you don't need any explanations for them.

What about the other guys? Actually, once you establish the pillars as the main protags, viewers will accept the stranger heroes without complaint. They already have the big guys to root for; the sidekicks are there for color.

Flash. Oh, he's fast. Maybe one 30 seconds flashback or a few sentences of exposition. Done!

GL and MM are trickier. Let's make it a 5 minutes flashback for them, just enough time to explain that their powers are extra-terrestrial. Once you say "from SPACE," viewers will accept any sort of weird powers. Really. Done!

[TheEmerged]

Or maybe Joss Whedon; he was interested in a Wonder Woman movie and a proven handler of superhero teams...

I saw a comic panel that summarized this well: "How would you like to be the guy that removed Joss Whedon from the WW right now?"

Truth be told, I'm not sure he could do WW right but I like his choice for the actress (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1130627/?ref_=tt_cl_t9).

As for the script? I've said for years to just take JLA Issues 6-9 from Grant Morrison's run and tell them to clean it up (because it would need the cleaning). I'm not sure that would work post-Avengers movie, since it might look derivative now.

[MLai]

Truth be told, I'm not sure he could do WW right but I like his choice for the actress (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1130627/?ref_=tt_cl_t9).
Problem with Cobie Smulders:

(1) Too short. This is a non-starter. If she was tall but skinny, she could work out.
(2) She doesn't even look Grecian.

I may be a bit oversensitive on the subject, but I can't stand whitewashing. Especially since Mediterranean can't even be considered non-white. Must we have a Northern European for every role? And heaven forbid we cast a tall woman as a main character.

[Traab]

Problem with Cobie Smulders:

(1) Too short. This is a non-starter. If she was tall but skinny, she could work out.
(2) She doesn't even look Grecian.

I may be a bit oversensitive on the subject, but I can't stand whitewashing. Especially since Mediterranean can't even be considered non-white. Must we have a Northern European for every role? And heaven forbid we cast a tall woman as a main character.

HEY! We made fury black! :p

[Fan]

HEY! We made fury black! :p

Fury's been black since well before Sam Jackson took up the mantel, even before Disney owned Marvel.

What are you talking about? Sure he was originally a red haired type, but that's irrelevant.:smallwink::smalltongue:

[DiscipleofBob]

HEY! We made fury black! :p

If they can make Tom Cruise look tall, they can make Cobie Smulders look absolutely Amazonian.

Besides, even though they're Grecian, the Amazons have always been depicted as white in the comics with a bit of racial diversity in their ranks.

I can't link to images right now, but if you google image search "Cobie Smulders Wonder Woman," you can get some pretty convincing fanart (don't worry, nothing racy).

[Metahuman1]

Problem with Cobie Smulders:

(1) Too short. This is a non-starter. If she was tall but skinny, she could work out.
(2) She doesn't even look Grecian.

I may be a bit oversensitive on the subject, but I can't stand whitewashing. Especially since Mediterranean can't even be considered non-white. Must we have a Northern European for every role? And heaven forbid we cast a tall woman as a main character.

Thank you, my point has been made for me. I know Joss Loves his Petite Powerhouses and all but as I said before 5'11ft is a bare minimum here. Personally I'd prefer 6'1 to 6'3. Much more then that is going to far in the other direction, but that range is perfect for an Amazon princess.

[Devonix]

Actually I'd prefer they show her as just slightly taller than everyone else on the team.

[MLai]

Actually I'd prefer they show her as just slightly taller than everyone else on the team.
You mean, next to Superman and Batman? That would be hilarious. They'd be looking at her and going damn, woman.

[Traab]

While the height is an issue, its also something easily handled throughout the history of movies through the use of careful camera angles, tricks, and props. So while it would be NICE to find a gorgeous greek actress thats 6 feet tall, its not mandatory.

[MLai]

While the height is an issue, its also something easily handled throughout the history of movies through the use of careful camera angles, tricks, and props. So while it would be NICE to find a gorgeous greek actress thats 6 feet tall, its not mandatory.
I've always wondered about Hollywood's reluctance on looking outside California for appropriate ppl for its roles.
If you're willing to spend $100 million dollars to make a movie, is it really such a chore to hire a gorgeous tall Greek actress that you CBA'ed? How many gorgeous Greek women with talent are probably chomping at the chance, but are never considered?

[Mordar]

Two problems... First just because someone is not a comic fan does not mean they are not super hero fans. Also just being able to name a character, doesn't mean you actually know anything about them.

Fair, but inconsequential given the individuals polled (comic vs SH fan). See below.


Second, if you conducted the poll on THESE forums, the added problem there is that you are conducting your poll not with the general audience, but with a niche'. [SNIP] A really great movie doesn't just cater to the existing audience but is able to add to the audience while still respecting its source material. I feel like that's why superman and batman because all of their various successful films and shows had been adding to their audiences allowing them to become more mainstream.

The poll was conducted in person or on the phone with primarily 35+ year olds, primarily female (given both the demographic breakdown of the venue and the specific interest in people less-likely to be "fans") and either employees or spouses of employees of a major public health department. Not a high bastion of geek-dom by any stretch of the imagination, specifically targeting respondents who are genre'-naive but of sufficiently high-frequency movie attendance to be in the potential viewing pool.

The entire purpose was to get a much more general audience, and see what they knew. I am 100% confident that they could give me basic powers for the characters named, and really, the rest is details.


Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman absolutely needs no time wasted on backstory. Everybody knows. And even if somehow somebody doesn't know, their powers and backstories are so straightforward you don't need any explanations for them.

What about the other guys? Actually, once you establish the pillars as the main protags, viewers will accept the stranger heroes without complaint. They already have the big guys to root for; the sidekicks are there for color.

Flash. Oh, he's fast. Maybe one 30 seconds flashback or a few sentences of exposition. Done!

Bingo. A richly detailed story doesn't mean we need an origin story, 20 minute retrospectives on the main characters, or a thorough understanding of the motivations behind Bruce Wayne prancing around in dark tights...sometimes just accepting that he does might enhance the story, not detract.

Characters that are really new to the mainstream? Introduce them the same way you introduce a mid-level character in act 2 of a crime drama...a quick who and what, and keep the pace brisk.

- M

[AtlanteanTroll]

I've always wondered about Hollywood's reluctance on looking outside California for appropriate ppl for its roles.
If you're willing to spend $100 million dollars to make a movie, is it really such a chore to hire a gorgeous tall Greek actress that you CBA'ed? How many gorgeous Greek women with talent are probably chomping at the chance, but are never considered?

Tall. Greek. Gorgeous ... In addition to being a talented actress and speaking English well. So ... Who knows. Not that many, probably. Or not that many who would actually get it. Especially since the studio is going to want name recognition.

[Traab]

Name recognition is a big draw. Another problem is, the more specifics you insist on in your actor or actress, the smaller the pool you have to draw from. Do you really want to risk wonder woman sucking as a character, because there were all of three greek tall women with impressive racks that tried out for the role and none of them had acted for anything but canceled tv show pilots? I would rather do something like say, take Cathrine Zeta Jones, run her through a muscle building program, and have her don the swimsuit and bracers, than take a risk on some unknown just because she can look the part without 6 hours of makeup a day.

[Metahuman1]

On the other hand, Name Recognition rapidly becomes a crutch.

If a movie is bad, there are people who will still freaking go see it just because a favorite of there's is in it. Studios count on that too much, and as a result, allow bad decisions to be made regarding the movie cause they figure hey, if it backfires, we still get some money from the casts fans coming to see these actors and actresses.

Plus, Name recognition leads to ideas like Letting Ben Aflack Direct or Nicholas Cage play Batman. Do we REALLY wanna run the risk of this on a movie that's got as much of an uphill battle already as Justice League?

Particularly given that Avengers was brilliant even though most of the cast was barely known outside of build up movies too it? (Exceptions being made for Scarlett Johanson and Sam Jackson. )

[AtlanteanTroll]

Particularly given that Avengers was brilliant even though most of the cast was barely known outside of build up movies too it? (Exceptions being made for Scarlett Johanson and Sam Jackson. )
Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Did you just call Robert Downey Junior an unknown?

[kpenguin]

Also Jeremy Renner.

[Kitten Champion]

Particularly given that Avengers was brilliant even though most of the cast was barely known outside of build up movies too it? (Exceptions being made for Scarlett Johanson and Sam Jackson. )

Robert Downey Jr and Chris Evans were hardly unknowns, well Downey certainly wasn't. He's the main reason I went.

Although finding a good actor for a role and finding a big name actor are two separate things. I had hoped Norton would've been in the Avengers, and I would never have picked Ruffalo for Bruce Banner... but he certainly worked. So what do I know?

Oh, on an unrelated point.

There's a question I want to ask people. Let's assume your not a comic fan and generally ignored the MArvel movies, you're dating someone who's definitely a fan, he or she has seen all the movies and invites you to see the Avengers. So, you haven't see any of the lead up films and there you are, in the theatre..

Can you possibly enjoy the Avengers -- as a moviegoer -- as much as your date?

[Joran]

Plus, Name recognition leads to ideas like Letting Ben Aflack Direct or Nicholas Cage play Batman. Do we REALLY wanna run the risk of this on a movie that's got as much of an uphill battle already as Justice League?


Just for piling on's sake.

The last movie that Ben Affleck's directed, Argo, is up for an Oscar for Best Picture. He's by all accounts a superb director (actor not so much).

Christian Bale was a big name before he took on Batman.

[MLai]

Pre-Iron Man, Robert Downey Jr was as bad as say, Lindsay Lohan. He was a washed up addict. But they casted him for Iron Man, and it turned out he wasn't washed up. He was still a talent. But I don't think his name was the big draw for Iron Man 1, unless initially ppl were curious whether he'd be a trainwreck.

What about Hugh Jackman? The only reason he is who he is, is because of Wolverine. Before that he was a completely unknown Aussie. Russell Crowe was completely unknown before Gladiator (that's... like a superhero film, srs).

You have to give new ppl, or old has-beens, a chance. Don't keep on depending on the aging overpaid artistically-inbred pool of "big name" talent.

[Metahuman1]

Pre-Iron Man, Robert Downey Jr was as bad as say, Lindsay Lohan. He was a washed up addict. But they casted him for Iron Man, and it turned out he wasn't washed up. He was still a talent. But I don't think his name was the big draw for Iron Man 1, unless initially ppl were curious whether he'd be a trainwreck.

What about Hugh Jackman? The only reason he is who he is, is because of Wolverine. Before that he was a completely unknown Aussie. Russell Crowe was completely unknown before Gladiator (that's... like a superhero film, srs).

You have to give new ppl, or old has-beens, a chance. Don't keep on depending on the aging overpaid artistically-inbred pool of "big name" talent.

Thank you, couldn't have said it better.

Also, to whomever it was that said that there probably weren't that many 6ft raven haired large racked greek actress with martial arts and Gymnastics/Acrobatics in there background, I never said Greek. I mean, if she can act, has a real martial arts background, has some reasonable Gymnastics/Acrobatics credentials, and has the over all look (between about 5'11 and 6'3, well endowed, athletically built, raven haired, pale skinned, blue eyed.) and happens to be able to act and is greek great, but I'll take anyone who has the prerequisite skills (Acting, Martial Arts, Gymnastics/Acrobatics.) and the prerequisite body, greek or otherwise. I could even give up the Raven hair and blue eyes if they could avoid the mistake they keep making every-time a Conan the Barbarian movie is made were they won't spend the money on a good bottle of hair dye and a good pair of colored contacts or a good bit of CG to alter her eye color to blue and her hair to raven black.

[MLai]

I'm actually not that fussy on whether the actress looks like a gymnast coming into the audition. Another example, look at Linda Hamilton in Terminator 1 vs Linda Hamilton in Terminator 2. I mean, damn. I had like a little boy crush when I saw her flex in T2. I think a lot of boys/men did. :smallwink:
Just need a personal trainer and the motivation.

But Greek/Mediterranean you can't fake or work out for. I just think non-North-European actors/actresses deserve a chance when their appropriate ethnic role pops up.
Look at Salma Hayek. She broke into the US consciousness with, dun dun dun, Desperado, where she --being Mexican-- got to play a Mexican character. What would have happened if the producers said, "Oh, the script calls for a Mexican lady. We'll just give the part to our favorite blonde actress, have her get a tan and dye her hair black." Then we wouldn't have Salma Hayek.

[Traab]

Arent most gymnasts generally slender, both in racks and muscles? meh, find someone the right height, make them work out. There, done. Actors do it all the time, they gain weight, lose it, work out, stop working out, whatever they have to do to fit the role better. Find a girl with a great rack, right general look and height, then make her lift weights for a few months to get a few decent bits of bulk. Just avoid Vera de Milo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFx-OAlrSE8)

[dps]

Problem with Cobie Smulders:

(1) Too short. This is a non-starter. If she was tall but skinny, she could work out.
(2) She doesn't even look Grecian.

I may be a bit oversensitive on the subject, but I can't stand whitewashing. Especially since Mediterranean can't even be considered non-white. Must we have a Northern European for every role? And heaven forbid we cast a tall woman as a main character.

Starting with 2, what does a Grecian woman look like, in your opinion? Of course Greeks can't be considered non-white, because, well, they are white. Obviously, the character should be brunette, but dye Uma Thurman's hair and I wouldn't have any idea what her ethnic background is (actually, thinking about it, even with her hair blond--I guess that's its natural color?--I don't have any real idea what her ethnic background is. Probably not Greek, Spanish or Italian, but could be French, German, Polish, Russian, etc.).

As for body type, the one thing Wonder Woman should NOT be is skinny. She doesn't have to be voluptuous, but she needs to be at least athletic and muscular. And yes, she shouldn't be short, but if people insist on an actress at least 5'11", that could be a big problem (no pun intended). Most actresses I can think of that tall are either too old (Sigourney Weaver) or not very good actresses (Saffrom Burrows) or both (Bridgette Nielson).

[Metahuman1]

Yet another good reason to look for new talent.

[MLai]

Starting with 2, what does a Grecian woman look like, in your opinion?
I mean, taking the opportunity that the character is explicitly a Greek person, to feature someone who conforms to a classical Grecian (rather than generic American) standard of beauty, i.e. one of the Greco-Roman female statue faces.
This is the art direction that the DC animated features took with the new WW, and it looks great.
I'm not coming at this from a "minority rights" perspective. You can't really say Greek actresses are hard-put by racism, after all. I'm more concerned with the promotion of ethnic beauty, in this case.


Of course Greeks can't be considered non-white, because, well, they are white.
Europeans had been divided into different levels of "superiority", actually.
Wikipedia: Nordic, Alpine, Mediterranean, East Baltic, and Dinaric, viewing Nordics as being at the top of the racial hierarchy.[9]


Obviously, the character should be brunette, but dye Uma Thurman's hair and I wouldn't have any idea what her ethnic background is
Well, I'd like to avoid the "I want someone (blonde) who can pass as a Greek beauty without actually being of Greek heritage." When it happens to your ethnicity, it's kind of insulting.
And it's not that hard... just poll some Greek Americans who still read Greek news and cheer for the Greek football team, and I'm sure they'll rattle off names of lots of beautiful Greek actresses from the homeland. Salma Hayek (Mexican) spoke barely any English when she first broke into American media.

[dps]

The only Americans that I've ever met who read Greek are academic types who have learned to read Classical, i.e., ancient, Greek as part of their studies. AFAIK, none of them are actually Greek themselves.

I do know a few Americans who have Greek ancestery, but except for a bit of Greek cooking, they don't retain any specifically Greek culture and certainly don't read Greek.