Pathfinder summoning

[HMS Invincible]

Iirc, 3.5 differentiated sna and summon monster. Summon natures ally was more combat based since you had to use handle animal to direct them And the lack of celestial templates.
In pathfinder it got nerfed IMO compared to the stronger summon monster line. Especially after the errata. Is it worth it to get augment summoning as a Druid? Treantmonks guide says maybe but the guide for summoning gives a compelling rebuttal.
Sorry about the text. On a phone

[Ravens_cry]

Well, so far it has been. A druid in our group has been using summon nature's ally critters as hit soaks and limited lock down and damage. It really does make a difference when a summoned lion takes a crit as opposed to you.

[Psyren]

Summon Monster is indeed better, but that doesn't mean SNA is bad. If you want to be a summon-focused Druid, go right ahead.

Personally I think the best choice for a PF summoner is the Alchemist - they get both lists all the way up to IX, they're Int-based so they make good knowledge-monkeys, and they can summon everything as a standard action. Plus you have the bombs to reliably attack from the back once you have your meatshields out.

[Chained Birds]

Personally I think the best choice for a PF summoner is the Alchemist - they get both lists all the way up to IX, they're Int-based so they make good knowledge-monkeys, and they can summon everything as a standard action. Plus you have the bombs to reliably attack from the back once you have your meatshields out.

I always felt that Alchemists make the best Pokemon Summoning Masters. Even more so than the Summoner Class as they mostly prioritize their Eidolon in some way and if they don't, they still have to deal with the Full-Round it takes to summon useful creatures.

[Pink]

I always felt that Alchemists make the best Pokemon Summoning Masters. Even more so than the Summoner Class as they mostly prioritize their Eidolon in some way and if they don't, they still have to deal with the Full-Round it takes to summon useful creatures.

Ummm, the Summon monster class ability ( usable 3+cha mod per day), of the Summoner is a standard action and lasts minutes per level, and becomes gate at high levels. So they do get around the full-round summoning bit. The Master Summoner archetype makes the class ability even more powerful.

[Ellrin]

Sorry for going slightly off-topic here, but I'm new to Pathfinder, and I keep hearing things that got nerfed about the druid--wildshape is nerfed, SNA is nerfed, you don't get as many spells per day.

How IS the pathfinder druid? It sounds like it's been made fairly weak compared to 3.5's druid; though that, of course, was absurdly powerful, even without a ton of optimization. Where does that leave the PF druid?

[Psyren]

Sorry for going slightly off-topic here, but I'm new to Pathfinder, and I keep hearing things that got nerfed about the druid--wildshape is nerfed, SNA is nerfed, you don't get as many spells per day.

How _IS_ the pathfinder druid? It sounds like it's been made fairly weak compared to 3.5's druid; though that, of course, was absurdly powerful, even without a ton of optimization. Where does that leave the PF druid?

They're still T1; The overall effect of the nerfs was to force PF druids to choose between casting and melee more than the 3.5 ones had to, but they're by no means weak. For example, their spells/day were reduced (you need a domain to get back to the original number, which means giving up your AC), and the wildshape forms now boost your stats rather than replacing them, so you need decent physical stats if you want to go that route. But you can still perform these functions, particularly if you have good rolls or high point-buy.

What this means is that the Druid is less of a one-man party. They can be a primary caster, or primary melee with secondary casting/buffing, but it's harder to do both even with Natural Spell helping out.


Ummm, the Summon monster class ability ( usable 3+cha mod per day), of the Summoner is a standard action and lasts minutes per level, and becomes gate at high levels. So they do get around the full-round summoning bit. The Master Summoner archetype makes the class ability even more powerful.

Summoner is more powerful overall but they have trouble getting both SM and SNA as standard actions. Alchemist is also more palatable in terms of a campaign aiming for T3 level, but that's neither here nor there.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I may be missing something here but how does Alchemist get access to the summon monster line? Or SNA?

[Ravenica]

preservationist archetype

[RagnaroksChosen]

O crap ... I didn't even think of that... Thanks

[Psyren]

preservationist archetype

Combined with the Planar Preservationist feat for SM.

[HMS Invincible]

I'm a melee druid, so my Wis is pretty low, that's why I was looking into summons. (No dc or saves to beat, just summon and beat down) Does this mean that augment summon is worth more to a melee druid, or do I need to save my feats for melee combat and some metamagic?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Druid is still a good class, it's just now notably weaker than cleric and wizard (and witch). I think Sorc and Summoner might also be stronger (Sorc or Oracle with Paragon Surge *IS* definitely stronger), but that's more up for debate.

Still better than the other schlubs.

Why they nerfed Druid specifically so much while doing nothing or even buffing wiz and cleric I do not know. Summoner is kind of a hilarious rebuttal to everything they seemed to think was broken about 3.5 Druids, though.

"Animal Companions make fighters pointless!" - Yeah, and an eidolon is significantly more powerful and fully intelligent...

"Wildshape lets you dump str and dex!" - Say hello to the Synthesist sometime, who's like a 3E druid that doesn't have to endure a painful first 4-5 levels!

[subject42]

If you pick up all of the various and sundry summoning feats Summon Nature's Ally can work pretty well, but it's very feat intensive. You have to focus on it as a druid.

[Spuddles]

Ummm, the Summon monster class ability ( usable 3+cha mod per day), of the Summoner is a standard action and lasts minutes per level, and becomes gate at high levels. So they do get around the full-round summoning bit. The Master Summoner archetype makes the class ability even more powerful.

You can't have your eidolon out if you want to use the class feature, so chances are, if you focused your build on your eidolon, you aren't going to have that ability available.


Sorry for going slightly off-topic here, but I'm new to Pathfinder, and I keep hearing things that got nerfed about the druid--wildshape is nerfed, SNA is nerfed, you don't get as many spells per day.

How IS the pathfinder druid? It sounds like it's been made fairly weak compared to 3.5's druid; though that, of course, was absurdly powerful, even without a ton of optimization. Where does that leave the PF druid?

It's still top notch. Some dirty tricks aren't there anymore and you have to devote more resources to making casting/animal companion/wild shape work at a top notch level, but wolf pet and using hawk form to fly around and lay down battlefield control is still at least as good as a wizard trying to do the same.

[HMS Invincible]

You can't have your eidolon out if you want to use the class feature, so chances are, if you focused your build on your eidolon, you aren't going to have that ability available.



It's still top notch. Some dirty tricks aren't there anymore and you have to devote more resources to making casting/animal companion/wild shape work at a top notch level, but wolf pet and using hawk form to fly around and lay down battlefield control is still at least as good as a wizard trying to do the same.

If you got a minute, dismiss your eidolon, cast summon monster. Now summon your eidolon. There's no rule that you can't do that, only the rule about not casting while your eidolon is out. Takes 10 rounds of casting though, so it's limited.

Back to druid summoning, my feat chain is pretty limited , I want power attack and probably a couple other combat feats, and then I have to think about a couple metamagic feats. Extend for sure, or rely on metamagic rods, depends on treasure. I still need improved initiative, so either way, I'm starved for feats. It sounds like I need more than augment summoning (2 feats) to get good summons. Did I miss any feats besides quicken? I've only looked at the core book so there might be some goodies in the few splat books that Pathfinder printed.