VoP monk how to get even more stuff

[Pandoras Folly]

So no masterwork weapons, no magic items, not a lot of anything really but you get a ton of good stuff. Note you need a cha of 15 to get the really good free feats. No party wizaaaarrrd, cleric, etc. no primary spellcasters at all.

So can I get permanent magic cast on me? If I remember correctly monks can get their fists enchanted, but what are the limits? Can I get multiple enchantments from multiple sources. Also no cash so no buying it, I give my cut to the party pool and the neady.

[chaos_redefined]

You can get them enchanted by Greater Magic Fang/Weapon + Permanency. Most DMs would rule anything else to be rules abuse.

Also, you would require someone to do it for free/quest. So, DM fiat anyway. (If you had a party wizard, it would be different)

Finally, with no party wizard, you will never be able to attack something flying. Good luck with that.

[Pandoras Folly]

We got ranger. He shoot good. Make bad things fall from sky.

Yeah I thought another player was going to be a caster, but he decided a half orc paladin would be fun.

I was hoping at some point I might get a boon that was a monks belt earned by training with a grandmaster or something. Again dm fiat.

[Matticussama]

If you give significant portions of your share of the loot to a temple, it would make sense if those Clerics eventually gave you various boosting magic such as Permanency Greater Magic Fang or other things that would help you without going against VoP limitations (like stat-boosting effects). There is a section in the Book of Exalted Deeds about these sorts of rewards that a VoP player should obtain in addition to the bonuses given by the feat itself by donating their wealth to other organizations, so make sure your DM is aware of that.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'm going to give the post I usually give when I see someone doing this combo or something like it.

Step 1. Don't be Monk for anything more than 2 levels.

Step 2. See Step 1.

..........

What happened was that WotC really dropped the ball when they made the Monk. So much that they wrote several ways of doing things that can be considered 'Monk v.2.0'. Here are the major 'replacements' for monk:

1.) Unarmed Swordsage, from Tome of Battle. This is the most obvious Monk 2.0. Go take a look at it; the Unarmed bit is an Adaptation of the character class, and it does everything the monk wanted to do.


2.) Tashalatora Psychic Warrior. What you do with this is take a level or 2 of Monk, the Tashalatora feat from Secrets of Sarlona, and go into Psychic Warrior from Expanded Psionics Handbook or the System Resource Document and never look back. Instead of Psychic Warrior, Ardent (from Complete Psionics) can work well, too.

3.) (Whirling Frenzy [System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana] or Ferocity [Cityscape Web Enhancement]) Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion), Wolf Totem (System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana) Barbarian. Those are the core changes and acf's of the barbarian class to make it more monk-like. Take Skilled City Dweller-ride for tumble (Cityscape Web Enhancement) and City Brawler (Dragon Magazine #349). Streetfighter (Cityscape Web Enhancement) isn't necessary --it helps--, so you can take it or not as you want. I would suggest Whirling Frenzy over Ferocity. Just get Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle), a Monk's Belt (DMG or SRD, if your wisdom is high), some light armor (if your wisdom isn't high), a Necklace of Natural attacks (Savage Species), and/or a Fanged Ring (Dragon Compendium Volume 1). In fact, any of these builds could maybe use those items!

4.) Monk 2/Mystic/Sacred Fist. This monk build uses a divine class, and the 'text over table' rule to get full casting for the Sacred Fist prestige class in complete divine. It works okay with Cleric, great with the Mystic class from Dragonlance Campaign Setting (choose a strong melee domain or devotion [complete champion!]), and pretty good with Favored Soul from Complete Divine. Don't take more than 2 levels of Monk. Focus on long-duration self-buffs.

5.) Monk with a huuuuge variety of alternative class features. Namely: Wild Monk (Dragon Magazine #324), Holy Strike (Complete Champion), Invisible Fist (Champions of Valor), Resistant Body (Planar Handbook), who picks up the 'X Wild Shape' (where X is a descriptor) feats from Draconomicon, Book of Exalted Deeds, and Frostburn. Make sure the DM lets you use your unarmed strikes at the end of your natural attacks. Focus on Wild Shape forms that get Pounce. Only works as 'powerful' once you get Wild Shape, and if you use a method of speaking while in Wild Shape (like pearl of speech, magic item compendium), and of getting your gear to work while in Wild Shape as well (Wilding Clasps, or taking it off and putting it on after you shape, etc.).




Oh, and just a note: NEVER TAKE VOW OF POVERTY. It dramatically lowers your overall power and capability, it neuters your possible versatility, and the DM can never give you gear to help you overcome any of your limitations. FURTHER, it is worse than equivalent Wealth By Level (ie, if you spent the money the game assumes you have, you will come out ahead of where Vow of Poverty would place you!), and it is far worse than even much less wealth by level, provided you spend that money intelligently.

Consider the "List of Necessary Magic Items", here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851

This list talks about the sorts of things that characters need to remain competitive. It includes things like Flight, Mind Blank, immunity to Stun, True Seeing, USEFUL teleportation, Freedom of Movement, etc. etc. ... things you will never, ever get as one of the weakest combos in the game -- the VoP Monk.

[Malroth]

of course if you've never played in a game that has any gear at all it might be looking a little better than the nothing you usually get. (13th lv character still in starting armour)

[Gavinfoxx]

If you play in a game with no gear whatsoever, I still would not encourage Vow of Poverty.


If you are in a low magic (as defined as super low wealth, as far as useful gear goes) game, you definitely want to do the most casting character you possibly can. If there is no magic worth anything as gear, you need to bring as much magic as possible to compensate.

I would suggest either a Druid, or an Easy Bake Wizard -- it is VERY item independent, and works even if you don't get any gear in the game whatsoever.

Here's how you make an Easy Bake Wizard.

Easy Bake No "Worries" Wizard

Ingredients:
1 Gray Elf (SRD, MM1)
1 Wizard Class (PHB, SRD)
1 Elf Wizard Racial Substitution Level (Races of the Wild)
1 Eidetic Spellcaster Alternative Class Feature (Dragon Magazine #357 -- the core of the build!)
1 Spontaneous Divination Alternative Class Feature (Complete Champion, be sure to check out the errata online!)
1 Collegiate Wizard Feat (Complete Arcane)
1 Aerenal Arcanist feat (Player's Guide to Eberron, optional)
1 Eschew Materials feat (PHB, SRD)
1 Domain Wizard variant, Transmutation or Conjuration domain (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional)
Flaws, to taste (SRD, Unearthed Arcana, optional, but necessary if you want all those feats by level 3)

Mix in bowl, and be sure to top with any one of these feats:
Acidic Splatter, Winter's Blast, or Fiery Burst (all from Complete Mage)

Makes one item independent character.

Notes: if it doesn't turn out right, you picked bad spells. Be sure to look at the various wizard handbooks for how to pick solid, powerful, versatile spells. And it is very thematic that you can do stuff like leave a slot open, or take Uncanny Forethought or Alacritous Cogitation, consider taking those later. And you automatically just 'get' spells like a sorcerer... no need for scrolls or anything. This Wizard idea relies on exactly zero found scrolls and zero need for items to scribe things into his spellbook, and with Eschew Materials and the right spells chosen, doesn't even need a Spell Component Pouch! Also, some people might think that this trading out the ability to specialize three times, but that isn't what is going on. Due to differing language between the various options, that isn't what's happening. Some of the stuff says that 'if you don't specialize, you can do this', some of the stuff says 'by removing the ability to specialize entirely, you gain this ability.' Order in which the abilities are taken matters.

Further, some more possible ingredients to take include:

-Alacritous Cogitation feat at level 6 (Complete Mage)
-Another Great option for race is a Lesser Fey'ri (Players Guide to Faerun and Races of Faerun) with LA Bought off (the LA buyoff option is in the SRD and Unearthed Arcana). This lets you make use of that Alter Self at will; read the handbook on the uses of Alter Self.
-Another option is Lesser Celadrin. You combine the rules in Player's Guide to Faerun and the rules in Dragon Magazine #350 to get Lesser Celadrin. Also, Fire Elf (UA/SRD) works well too.


-If you ask for houserules, consider these two:
-Permission to house rule that you can take Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil) at level 9, with the Alacritous Cogitation (Complete Mage) and the Eidetic Spellacster ACF taking place of the Spell Mastery prerequisite, without access to the 'spell mastery' capability from that feat
-Hopefully permission to house rule for the character to count Autohypnosis (XPH, SRD) as a class skill, to describe the character's eidetic memory being useful for things other than spellcasting


Some numbers:

Basic Wizard: Start with 3+Int mod L1 spells, +2 each level as baseline
Elf Generalist Wizard: +1 wizard spell at start, +1 each level beyond baseline
Collegiate Wizard: Instead of 3+int and +2 each level, baseline is set at 6+int and +4 each level
Aerenal Arcanist: +1 each level beyond baseline, including L1 if you take it then
Domain Wizard (Transmutation or Conjuration): One specific extra spell of each spell levels; +9 spells over career (cantrip is already known)

So at level one, with a 20 int (cause Grey Elf or whatever) you know:
13 level one spells, plus mage armor or expeditious retreat automatically
At level 2, you gain six new L1 spells
At level 3, you gain 6 spells of up to spell level 2, and levitate or web, depending...

Essentially, you end up with a more versatile Sorcerer, who has access to a TON of spells, and can always get the right spell for the job... even with no gear whatsoever. And no Vow of Poverty.

[dungeonnerd]

Gavin is right... except.


While what he said is technically correct, do not let him deter you from playing what you want to play. I've played a VoP monk before, in a similar party set-up (ranger, paladin, me, rogue), and it was a lot of fun. Especially from a roleplaying standpoint.

It ultimately comes down to two things:

1) Is the party going to be optimized, even middle-ground so, which can/will regulate your character to the sidelines and give you an unsatisfactory experience? After all, it's no fun playing Idiot Jed when everyone else is ending the combat/social experiences in a single action.

2) Make sure the DM knows and is willing to help you keep up to the curve. In a low to mid op party, VoP by itself isn't bad, but will need some kind of "dear sir, thank you so please take this boon" kind of thing that is fiat'd away from breaking VoP. As Matt said, any good temple would gladly give you such a boon for all the good work you are doing for them.

[Gavinfoxx]

Further, if the GM isn't giving you wealth, you should open up the DMG to the page that describes wealth by level, and remind him, "The game assumes we have this much money, each, in useful equipment. All the numbers in the books, and the capabilities of the classes -- or lack thereof -- assume that we have money to mitigate deficiencies in the classes. D&D is an absurdly high magic item game, and it really breaks down without access to useful magical gear."


Read the "Traps Beginners should be aware of" thread, here:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4189.0

It talks about that.

[Flickerdart]

Also no cash so no buying it, I give my cut to the party pool and the neady.
You must give all of it away. Your party members do not get more stuff.

[Gavinfoxx]

You must give all of it away. Your party members do not get more stuff.

Agreed. If you give ANY of your share to the party, you are cheating. That isn't what the feat says... if you actually follow what the feat and restrictions actually say, you are a liability to the party, since you can't do anything against most types of DR, you can't use anything more advanced than a sling or a quarterstaff, you can't generally carry gear, etc. etc.


If you want the party to get more stuff, be a SPELL FOCUSED, crafting focused class (Archivist, Wizard, Artificer, Cloistered Cleric, with crafting feats and domains) and extend the incoming wealth that way. Vow of Poverty does not get your party more stuff.

[Matticussama]

Of course, since you said you wanted to be a VoP Monk I doubt that you have any interest in being a spellcaster. Just because your character isn't the most mechanically optimized doesn't mean it won't be fun to RP.

If you're playing in a low optimization campaign and your DM is willing to give you a little leeway beyond just what VoP says it can work out fine; ex: after donating significant wealth to the temple of Pelor and destroying an undead threat, they bless your fists in holy water sanctified by their High Priest so that your fists are now treated as Holy weapons.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you're playing in a low optimization campaign and your DM is willing to give you a little leeway beyond just what VoP says it can work out fine; ex: after donating significant wealth to the temple of Pelor and destroying an undead threat, they bless your fists in holy water sanctified by their High Priest so that your fists are now treated as Holy weapons.

The thing is, that sort of thing requires a whole lot of DM fiat, and loosening of the restrictions listed in the book by a significant amount. That MIGHT be happening, but we can't really assume that will be the case!

[Matticussama]

True, which is why I definitely suggest that the OP shows their DM the full details on voluntary poverty in the BoED if they aren't familiar with it. It goes into more detail on ways that organizations that receive donations from VoP characters should help those characters. If your DM doesn't give you anything more than just what the feat says, then it is definitely not worth it. If, however, your DM is willing to work with you on it with a little bit of DM fiat then it can be fun.

[Psyren]

I recommend any DM that allows VoP to allow either psionic or incarnum feats as bonus feats. That fixes a lot of the problems with the voluntary poverty system and stays in flavor.

[Eric Scott]

I think it is possible to get into Kensai and enchant your Unarmed Strikes using your XP instead of money in the same way that VoP casters can spend XP instead of money for their material components... but, I very well could be wrong.

[rot42]

I recommend any DM that allows VoP to allow either psionic or incarnum feats as bonus feats. That fixes a lot of the problems with the voluntary poverty system and stays in flavor.

I was not aware that anyone else does this - neat. Make sure to use the interpretation of the Open Chakra feats that makes them useful for such a character.

A VoP character does kind of indirectly help party gear levels in that if an item drops that would be nice for this character and another, the other is sure to get to use it. There is nothing wrong with accepting your party cut as fungible wealth and unneeded magic items instead of competing for useful stuff.

Be sure to check out magical locations (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6624) - they have an "equivalent cost" for purposes of calculating wealth by level, but no actual value. That link appears to be incomplete and unmaintained, but gives a good start (is anyone aware of a better resource?).

[Story]

I've got a list of all the ones I could find that grant a permanent benefit here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14604943). Unfortunately, they're pretty much limited to Complete Scoundrel.

If you don't mind your powers disappearing after a month or year, there are of course a lot more to choose from.

[Pandoras Folly]

Wow thanks guys lots of great ideas I was already looking into psionics and/or incarnum. My dm is open to multi classing, he said basically don't pull a Nale and have a different class every level. He is a stickler for prereqs I think, but is open to all the books. As long as I go by the rules, dont break the game too badly, and Role Play!!!! I can do what I Want.
I will look into the kensai XP burn could be useful.
Im already using Alternate class features, wall runner instead of fall
Gavinfoxx I will look jnto your suggestions.
The party is medium op and frankly i've been playing 4th Ed and oping the heck out of my characters. I dont usually play casters, Mage the Ascension ruined me on playing wizards to be honest.

Ill look into giving money to an organization, my title is Reverend and my God is Moradin so if anyone could figure out how to forge magic to flesh it would be the forge father's priests. Eventually I plan to take up smithing by hand once my DR fire is high enough.

Also found the forsaker (http://unicorn.us.com/alex/dnd/forsaker.html) class, maybe he might let me play the 3.5 port. It definetly falls into my eschew magic items philosophy. Except I would hunt down evil magical creatures snd items

[Gavinfoxx]

Never Take Forsaker!!!

I cannot stress this enough.

3.5e breaks badly in an 'eschew magic items' game. THE GAME DOES NOT FUNCTION WITHOUT MAGIC ITEMS!!!!

If you want to play a game without magic items and without casters, you basically are telling the GM, "Throw away the monster manual, and have me only go up against non caster npc's without magic items themselves."

Seriously. From that Traps beginners should be aware of thread.

"9. Magic items are as much a part of your character's abilities as their class features. Moreso, in fact, since apart from exotic races and the occasional obscure feat, they're the only way non-casters can gain vital abilities like flight and immunity to those instant-death effects (summary here). The game isn't balanced around characters who have only half their abilities, so if you want to run a "low magic" campaign then make sure you use only non-caster NPCs as enemies (no monsters) so that everyone is penalised equally. Because without a magic sword, a level 100 fighter will lose to a level 2 allip every time."

There are seriously like two character types that can function WELL without magic items. And there are a few that function OKAY without magic items.

Function Well includes a Druid, if you don't take any of the Alternative Class Feature nerfs. The other is an Easy Bake Wizard.
The classes that could possibly function OKAY without magic items include a Sorcerer, the right type of Cleric, a Psion, a Binder, or an Incarnate. But that generally depends greatly on the particular build!

And that summary here thing? It links to this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851

Look at that list of things, and then look at whether or not your class abilities gives you those things. Unless you are a Tier 1 caster... your class abilities won't give you that stuff!

[Pandoras Folly]

Moradin will protect me
Moradin will guide my hand
He will forge me
He will make me
I will be his hammer
I will be his anvil
I hold only what Moradin gives me
I hold his fire in my heart
I abide in his blaze
I abide in his furnace
Never will it be quenched
Forever is its memory
He will make me
He will forge me
Moradin will guide my hand
Moradin will protect me

[Kelb_Panthera]

Never Take Forsaker!!!

I cannot stress this enough.

3.5e breaks badly in an 'eschew magic items' game. THE GAME DOES NOT FUNCTION WITHOUT MAGIC ITEMS!!!!

If you want to play a game without magic items and without casters, you basically are telling the GM, "Throw away the monster manual, and have me only go up against non caster npc's without magic items themselves."

Seriously. From that Traps beginners should be aware of thread.

"9. Magic items are as much a part of your character's abilities as their class features. Moreso, in fact, since apart from exotic races and the occasional obscure feat, they're the only way non-casters can gain vital abilities like flight and immunity to those instant-death effects (summary here). The game isn't balanced around characters who have only half their abilities, so if you want to run a "low magic" campaign then make sure you use only non-caster NPCs as enemies (no monsters) so that everyone is penalised equally. Because without a magic sword, a level 100 fighter will lose to a level 2 allip every time."

There are seriously like two character types that can function WELL without magic items. And there are a few that function OKAY without magic items.

Function Well includes a Druid, if you don't take any of the Alternative Class Feature nerfs. The other is an Easy Bake Wizard.
The classes that could possibly function OKAY without magic items include a Sorcerer, the right type of Cleric, a Psion, a Binder, or an Incarnate. But that generally depends greatly on the particular build!

And that summary here thing? It links to this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851

Look at that list of things, and then look at whether or not your class abilities gives you those things. Unless you are a Tier 1 caster... your class abilities won't give you that stuff!

While that's all true. His character has already given up the use of magic items by being a VoP character. Taking forsaker forces him to give up nothing at this point that he wasn't giving up already. If he's using the fix that's listed on the link he gave then the class-features he's getting aren't really much better/worse than sticking with monk. In particular, the inherent bonuses are quite nice.

[Rubik]

Moradin will protect me
Moradin will guide my hand
He will forge me
He will make me
I will be his hammer
I will be his anvil
I hold only what Moradin gives me
I hold his fire in my heart
I abide in his blaze
I abide in his furnace
Never will it be quenched
Forever is its memory
He will make me
He will forge me
Moradin will guide my hand
Moradin will protect meI get the mental image of a VoP monk hiding under his pillow, afraid to come out because he knows he'll die horribly if he does.

[Yogibear41]

You can get them enchanted by Greater Magic Fang/Weapon + Permanency. Most DMs would rule anything else to be rules abuse.

Also, you would require someone to do it for free/quest. So, DM fiat anyway. (If you had a party wizard, it would be different)

Finally, with no party wizard, you will never be able to attack something flying. Good luck with that.

Magic Fang doesn't stack with the exalted strike bonus he gets anyway they are both Enhancment, unless of course its bonus is greater than the one he currently gets from the vow.

[Karnith]

While that's all true. His character has already given up the use of magic items by being a VoP character. Taking forsaker forces him to give up nothing at this point that he wasn't giving up already. If he's using the fix that's listed on the link he gave then the class-features he's getting aren't really much better/worse than sticking with monk. In particular, the inherent bonuses are quite nice.
Actually, being a forsaker forces you to make a saving throw against all spells that allow them, which in combination with your spell resistance and relatively good saves means that it's a real hassle for the party to cast buffs on you. So there is a downside to being a forsaker even if you already can't use magic items.

In addition to avoiding all use of spellcasting, spell-like abilities, and magic items, the forsaker must also refuse any benefits from others’ magic—including magical healing. Thus, he must attempt a saving throw against any spell that allows one. For most beneficial spells, such displacement or neutralize poison, a successful save negates the spell’s effects; for a cure spell, it halves the benefit. Any forsaker who unwittingly uses a magic item or casts a spell (while under the influence of a charm person or dominate person spell, for example) loses all the special abilities of the prestige class for one week.
It may not be relevant in this particular game (no primary spellcasters), but it is a downside even taking VoP into account.

[Pandoras Folly]

Anti-magic field plus permanency. Cast on me.



Forever alone.

[Psyren]

Anti-magic field plus permanency. Cast on me.

AMF is personal range; also, some of the VoP benefits are Su (e.g. the deflection AC bonus and damage reduction), so even if this were possible you would be hurting yourself even more.

[Pandoras Folly]

AMF is personal range; also, some of the VoP benefits are Su (e.g. the deflection AC bonus and damage reduction), so even if this were possible you would be hurting yourself even more.



That last one was a jokey joke. That sounds like a horrible idea.

[Karnith]

AMF is personal range; also, some of the VoP benefits are Su (e.g. the deflection AC bonus and damage reduction), so even if this were possible you would be hurting yourself even more.
It also turns off quite a few Monk class features as well, including (importantly) the ability to overcome damage reduction.

Oh, you were joking. Well, that's a relief.

[JaronK]

For a Monk that wants more stuff from VoP build, I'd recommend Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Kensai 9. That gives you full flurry with higher BAB and the ability to enchant your fists with some very useful magical effects. It's simple and straight forward and it gets the job done.

JaronK

[Pandoras Folly]

Shou looks sweet.

Does anyone know if the kensai bonus to hit would stack with the ancestral relic feat from exalted deeds? I may be able to convince the dm of something to fulfill the requirements, either XP or patronage to a temple or monastery.

[Gavinfoxx]

Does anyone know if the kensai bonus to hit would stack with the ancestral relic feat from exalted deeds?

You can't use Ancestral Relic and Vow of Poverty. Vow of poverty requires no masterwork, you can't use masterwork items with VoP. Nor can you use magic items... really, you use sling + rocks & quarterstaff, and simple clothes. that's about it.

If you already have a VoP character, retire the character!

[Pandoras Folly]

Eh i've never played with a dm who ruled a monks body wasn't considered masterwork quality, even if it didnt have +1 tag to it.

And you still didnt answer the question.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yes, because a feat intended pretty much to model samurai swords being passed down as heirlooms works entirely with the monk class. While technically you do get your body from your ancestors... seriously?

It sounds like you have a huuuge amount of houserules going on. Can you please elaborate on the game specific rulings and such?

[Flickerdart]

Yes, because a feat intended pretty much to model samurai swords being passed down as heirlooms works entirely with the monk class. While technically you do get your body from your ancestors... seriously?

Shichika Yasuri would like to have words with you.

[Karnith]

And you still didnt answer the question.
If you are asking whether or not the bonuses from Ancestral Relic and the Kensai's Signature Weapon stack, then no, they don't. They both grant the weapon in question enhancement bonuses (as per normal enchanted weapons), and like bonuses overlap (i.e. you'd apply the better of the two). Actually, I may have read the Kensai ability incorrectly; they both add enchantments to a particular weapon as per normal for improving magic weapons. The abilities stack in a sense, but only insofar as you can add enchantments to the weapon through either ability; you cannot, for example, grant a weapon two +1 bonuses (one through each ability), but you can take a weapon and grant it a +1 bonus through your Signature Weapon ability, and then sacrifice items worth 6000 gold to improve it to a +2 weapon using the Ancestral Relic feat, assuming that you are high enough level to have a Signature Weapon and Ancestral Relic of that value.

Also, Ancestral Relic doesn't work with unarmed strikes by my reading of the feat, since it says:

Choose an item you own. The item must be of masterwork quality, and it must be an item that once belonged to a member of your family.
RAW it doesn't qualify for the former condition, and since unarmed strikes rarely change ownership, they are in most cases ineligible for the second.

Moreover, if you have taken Vow of Poverty, you have no gold to spend enchanting your Ancestral Relic, so taking the feat would give you no benefit, regardless.

[Pandoras Folly]

Karnith---timely, informative, and the answer to my question. Thankyou 2 cookies for you

Flickrdart --- amusing and correct two cookies for you.

Gavinfoxx --- how you manage to sound like a petulant 13 year old over the internet I do not know, but I do know 1 house rule a huge number it is not. You must learn that it is impossible to win at dnd, trying to do so pushes victory ever away from your reach. 3 cookies for you

[Gavinfoxx]

I think you have more house rules than you recognize, is the thing. You need to take a step back and figure out what the rules actually are... and which you are breaking.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, being a forsaker forces you to make a saving throw against all spells that allow them, which in combination with your spell resistance and relatively good saves means that it's a real hassle for the party to cast buffs on you. So there is a downside to being a forsaker even if you already can't use magic items.

I saw. I also saw that he doesn't have a real caster in his party anyway. He said upthread that he thought one of the other players was going to be one but it turns out he was mistaken. With no casters in the party and NPC's charging for spell-casting services, he's really not giving up anything. Healing is covered by the fast-healing ability, noone can fly on their own, though someone in the party might buy one of the larger flying carpets or the monk might aquire a flying mount through some PrC or feat. Grafts are non-magical once applied, though he'd have to find some way of getting them for free.

Forsaker is usually a terrible idea, but for this character it might just work.

[Psyren]

Can Wild Cohort get you a flier?

And if all else fails, Incarnum should be fine for a VoP/Forsaker - Airstep Sandals and opening his Feet chakra for instance.

[Story]

If you already have a VoP character, retire the character!

That's not the only option. There's always Psychic Reformation (though you'll still be behind in WBL for a while).

[Pandoras Folly]

Thank you Gavin for that concise and thoughtfully put comment. Dont worry all of this PURELY theoretical, at least the crazier stuff.

Anothrr cookie for you

[Eric Scott]

If you do use Kensai, you could try enchanting your Unarmed Strikes with Throwing and Distance... and then throw your fists/ feet/ head/ bits of your hair at airborne enemies Flurrying at range.... along with other things such as, oh I dunno Sizing? How about Morphing? Brilliant Energy? There are quite a few that can be thought of that produce some very interesting options for a monk. (Just as a warning though... if you throw your body parts, they may or may not reconnect... so, if you throw anything other than hair or finger nails, you may want to add Teleporting as well...)

[Gavinfoxx]

Can Wild Cohort get you a flier?

Yea, Dire Bat. Problem is he can't get a, you know... saddle. They're too valuable.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you go kensai, OA and magic of faerun both have a flying enhancement that you can add to your fist. Both make for rather an odd interaction though; particularly the magic of faerun version.

[Yogibear41]

AMF is personal range; also, some of the VoP benefits are Su (e.g. the deflection AC bonus and damage reduction), so even if this were possible you would be hurting yourself even more.

There is that feat that allows you to not effect one creature or something like that when you cast a spell forget what its called so technically he could run around with an anitmagic field around him that doesn't affect himself.

[Story]

But if the AMF doesn't affect you, you're still vulnerable to targeted spells. Shaped AMFs are only really good against AOEs and melee attackers.

[Psyren]

But if the AMF doesn't affect you, you're still vulnerable to targeted spells. Shaped AMFs are only really good against AOEs and melee attackers.

Summons too - they wink out and so can't get near you while in the "donut."

[Story]

I was including that under melee. Obviously summons with ranged attacks are unaffected.

[Phelix-Mu]

VoP is eminently not unfeasible, as has been repeatedly suggested. From a supplemental book full of optional rules designed to give characters devoted to good special rules support and perks, as well as setting development and such, it is silly to then suggest that the DM, who thought using the suggestions in the book was acceptable, would then treat the player using those suggestions as an enemy to be thwarted in the way that gavin has portrayed things. Exalted characters are paragons of goodness; just because quantifying the benefits of this is hard in game terms does not mean that said benefits don't exist.

Lemme make a list of things that saintly people can expect:
- The love of people that benefit from the PCs poverty. Entire towns, cities, and nations can be improved with the money the average PC earns over their career. Does love have a value? The Diplomancer would argue "Yes."

- Admiration from people that aspire to similar ideals. These people will look to your example, seek your blessing, teaching, assistance, and will offer everything reasonable and many things unreasonable in return.

- Notice by other paragons of goodness. The saintly are noticed by servants of the powers just as much as the despicable are noticed by soul-craving fiends. Expect celestials to view VoP character as the most enlightened of mortals, a peer of sorts, someone to whom principles are more important than power. The very essence of goodness is to uphold goodness even when it sucks to do so, to not give in to desire for power when its convenient. I think we can all hear Yoda talking.

I think there is a whole chapter in BoED that goes into this in excruciating length.

So, to those who think that game effect of VoP is net negative, that would be accurate if the only other beings in the game were enemies. Luckily, that's not the case. There are people and things worth protecting, and if a character believes that forsaking worldly power and benefit via VoP is going to assist in this protection, FAR BE IT FROM ANYONE TO QUESTION THEIR MOTIVES. Just because op is fail doesn't mean one can't succeed, even brilliantly, as half of what most PCs adventure for can't be measured in WBL or round-to-round damage output.

To the OP, Diplomacy is your friend. Invest in Heal, even cross class, and boost Wis and Cha. Get Nymph's Kiss, and stack Diplomacy bonuses. Use it on anyone that seems like they might benefit from a shoulder to lean on, a sympathetic listener, or more complicated assistance. You may not pack the power of an army, but go anywhere and find only friends, and you will be a force that any BBEG would be a fool to disregard.

Do things for people; you will have access to the kind of cash to donate that is more than commoners would see in a thousand lifetimes. A VoP character in my campaign had a thing for founding hospitals and curing the ill. He became quite popular. Popularity with the masses and key NPCs can yield benefits in the short and long run, though you have to be careful not to make enemies of tyrants and other borderline evil rulers.

Join an affiliation, with DM approval on using donated wealth/services in place of dues to the organization. There should be a number of affiliations that will yield both tangible and role play benefits to a VoP monk.

Leadership, Dragon Cohort, Wild Cohort, and the related leadership feats and info in Heroes of Battle and Dragon Mag can all have obvious usefulness. You can be VoP and have a cohort with possessions, as VoP is strictly a personal vow, not something that one imposes on others. You can't use the possessions of the cohort as if they were your own, no more than you can just have another member of the party carry extra stuff to "loan" to you. I guess DM ruling here may come into effect, but I've allowed VoP PCs to have normal cohorts and such.

Good luck. You sound like you have a good grasp on the fun that such role play can bring about, and I think the story for your PC will be both interesting and eventful.

[Fates]

Well, nevermind. Phelix just completely covered what I was aching to say and more. I would have to say I am of a like mind; we all like a bit of optimization, but don't let people tell you that you should give up a great character concept just because it's not mechanically efficient, from an outside standpoint. Besides, given the class choices of your allies, you don't want to get overly extravagant anyway, or you'll just overshadow them, and nobody likes that.

[Rubik]

If you do use Kensai, you could try enchanting your Unarmed Strikes with Throwing and Distance... and then throw your fists/ feet/ head/ bits of your hair at airborne enemies Flurrying at range.... along with other things such as, oh I dunno Sizing? How about Morphing? Brilliant Energy? There are quite a few that can be thought of that produce some very interesting options for a monk. (Just as a warning though... if you throw your body parts, they may or may not reconnect... so, if you throw anything other than hair or finger nails, you may want to add Teleporting as well...)Being a monk, you could throw your whole body, since it's all one big unarmed strike. Alternately, you hurl your fist and your body follows.

[Pandoras Folly]

Thanks for the support guys I really appreciate it.

healinv the sick and relieving poverty is definitely something I plan to do. My next thing I want to look into is how much it costs to hire workers for projects I want to have built

The leadeship/cohort stuff I haven't looked at in a looooong time, but thatz a fracken great idea. I already took nymphs kiss at first level and maxed my diplomoacy. so thats win right there to keep going. My next ability modifier at 4th is probably going to cha, thats up in the air though.

[Eric Scott]

Being a monk, you could throw your whole body, since it's all one big unarmed strike. Alternately, you hurl your fist and your body follows.

... I had never thought of that... which makes Sizing all the better... Be Fine size for travel and then when combat arises become as large as the surroundings will allow...

This makes me want to think about possibly playing a VoP monk... but, I probably wouldn't.

[Pandoras Folly]

... I had never thought of that... which makes Sizing all the better... Be Fine size for travel and then when combat arises become as large as the surroundings will allow...

This makes me want to think about possibly playing a VoP monk... but, I probably wouldn't.

All the high end monk ops that ive seen are based on size primarily, either making your attacks count as larger or actually becoming larger then stacking on chargy charging, and every other added bonus you can scrape together. A 150 damage average is not unheard of, thats per attack not in total per round.

[Eric Scott]

All the high end monk ops that ive seen are based on size primarily, either making your attacks count as larger or actually becoming larger then stacking on chargy charging, and every other added bonus you can scrape together. A 150 damage average is not unheard of, thats per attack not in total per round.

Very true... it's just that I have never thought of using this before...

[Lord_Gareth]

VoP is eminently not unfeasible, as has been repeatedly suggested. From a supplemental book full of optional rules designed to give characters devoted to good special rules support and perks, as well as setting development and such, it is silly to then suggest that the DM, who thought using the suggestions in the book was acceptable, would then treat the player using those suggestions as an enemy to be thwarted in the way that gavin has portrayed things. Exalted characters are paragons of goodness; just because quantifying the benefits of this is hard in game terms does not mean that said benefits don't exist.

Lemme make a list of things that saintly people can expect:
- The love of people that benefit from the PCs poverty. Entire towns, cities, and nations can be improved with the money the average PC earns over their career. Does love have a value? The Diplomancer would argue "Yes."

- Admiration from people that aspire to similar ideals. These people will look to your example, seek your blessing, teaching, assistance, and will offer everything reasonable and many things unreasonable in return.

- Notice by other paragons of goodness. The saintly are noticed by servants of the powers just as much as the despicable are noticed by soul-craving fiends. Expect celestials to view VoP character as the most enlightened of mortals, a peer of sorts, someone to whom principles are more important than power. The very essence of goodness is to uphold goodness even when it sucks to do so, to not give in to desire for power when its convenient. I think we can all hear Yoda talking.

I think there is a whole chapter in BoED that goes into this in excruciating length.

So, to those who think that game effect of VoP is net negative, that would be accurate if the only other beings in the game were enemies. Luckily, that's not the case. There are people and things worth protecting, and if a character believes that forsaking worldly power and benefit via VoP is going to assist in this protection, FAR BE IT FROM ANYONE TO QUESTION THEIR MOTIVES. Just because op is fail doesn't mean one can't succeed, even brilliantly, as half of what most PCs adventure for can't be measured in WBL or round-to-round damage output.

To the OP, Diplomacy is your friend. Invest in Heal, even cross class, and boost Wis and Cha. Get Nymph's Kiss, and stack Diplomacy bonuses. Use it on anyone that seems like they might benefit from a shoulder to lean on, a sympathetic listener, or more complicated assistance. You may not pack the power of an army, but go anywhere and find only friends, and you will be a force that any BBEG would be a fool to disregard.

Do things for people; you will have access to the kind of cash to donate that is more than commoners would see in a thousand lifetimes. A VoP character in my campaign had a thing for founding hospitals and curing the ill. He became quite popular. Popularity with the masses and key NPCs can yield benefits in the short and long run, though you have to be careful not to make enemies of tyrants and other borderline evil rulers.

Join an affiliation, with DM approval on using donated wealth/services in place of dues to the organization. There should be a number of affiliations that will yield both tangible and role play benefits to a VoP monk.

Leadership, Dragon Cohort, Wild Cohort, and the related leadership feats and info in Heroes of Battle and Dragon Mag can all have obvious usefulness. You can be VoP and have a cohort with possessions, as VoP is strictly a personal vow, not something that one imposes on others. You can't use the possessions of the cohort as if they were your own, no more than you can just have another member of the party carry extra stuff to "loan" to you. I guess DM ruling here may come into effect, but I've allowed VoP PCs to have normal cohorts and such.

Good luck. You sound like you have a good grasp on the fun that such role play can bring about, and I think the story for your PC will be both interesting and eventful.

So you're saying that Vow of Poverty, which costs you two feats and all of your money and two feat slots, is a viable option if you:

- Play a good-aligned character as though they are a nice person (doable without VoP)

- Succor the weak and innocent (doable without VoP)

- Exploit some of the most broken feats in the game (definitely doable without VoP)

- Hope you can join some kind of organization that helps with the above.

No. You literally could not be using faultier reasoning. The opportunity cost is the same, since there's nothing stopping you from doing any of the above without Vow of Poverty, with the added bonus that since you still have your money you can actually go forth and fight evil.

Essentially, Pandora, if you want to make a Monk, you should go Unarmed Swordsage - because at least then you can actually defend the innocent, uplift the weak, and oppose evil. Monk is a terrible class that doesn't deliver on any of the promises in its flavor, and Vow of Poverty only makes it (and everything it touches) worse.

[monkey3]

I saw an article (in 2005) by some guy who said the opposite of the OP. He said VoP was overpowered, and he was set to prove it. He wrote this article, that I was impressed enough to save. I don't remember his name; posting with no edits:

Some very strong Vow of Poverty munchkin builds are doable.
First things first, I'm going to be a bit anal in parts of this post, but that's because in interpreting whatever the "official" position on VoP is you need to be like that to some extent.
Then take a look at the FAQ position on VoP:
D&D 3.5 FAQ wrote:
How do the equipment restrictions put on a character by the Vow of Poverty feat affect class-defining items? (Examples include a cleric's holy symbol, a wizard's familiar, a samurai's daisho, and a paladin's mount.)
The Vow of Poverty feat is very specific about the items that a character can own while gaining the benefits of the feat (see page 48 in Book of Exalted Deeds for details). It specifically disallows ownership of masterwork or magic weapons, and thus a samurai who chooses this feat must give up the possession of his daisho (his pair of masterwork weapons). A holy symbol does not appear on the list of eligible items, and thus a strict reading of the feat would disallow the item.
A familiar, special mount, or animal companion isn’t a material possession, and thus a character with Vow of Poverty isn’t restricted from gaining the benefits of such creatures. Remember that the Vow of Poverty feat, like most of the material found in Book of Exalted Deeds, is intended for mature campaigns that are capable of handling difficult role-playing issues—it’s not intended for most hack-and-slash games. A cleric who must give up his holy symbol (effectively preventing him from turning undead or casting any spell that requires a divine focus) could be a very interesting challenge for a player who’s “done it all” and wants to try something
unusual.
First up make sure the player has read & reread the description of the feat on p48. And note that it's very specific about what the ascetic character can own & use:
"you must not own or use any material possessions", except
-- ordinary, simple weapons -- typically a staff
-- simple clothes -- e.g. robe, boots, hat
-- enough food for 1 day in a simple sack
-- spell component pouch
A spell component pouch only provides negligible cost components, so any spell with a costly material component can't be cast. Similarly for focuses. This seems fair, and isn't too big a burden on most (low level) casters.
Divine focus – as the FAQ says, if you go by the letter of the rules you cannot cast any spells with a DF component and cannot turn undead. I would *strongly* advise house ruling to allow a simple (possibly hand-made) holy symbol, equivalent to a wooden holy symbol. It's doable without but it's quite a significant hit on a cleric.
The hit on the wizard is tougher though -- notice the absence of "spell book" from the list? Trickier than holy symbol to justify, and it's exclusion is reasonable by the spirit of the feat too. Suggest switching from wizard to sorcerer unless there's a significant issue with that.
Regarding charity, many of these problems can be overcome through the kindness of strangers (or other party members), however I would regard repeated reliance on charity as contrary to the spirit of the vow, as the non-self sufficient ascetic essentially requires others to provide for him, and is in many regards in receipt of gifts from them. In order to stay closer to the spirit of the vow I would advocate than anything the ascetic receives from another, or anything done for him, should be repaid as best and as soon as possible. The ascetic has renounced worldly goods and though he recognizes that others ascribe material value to things he does not -- any repayment should reflect both the material and perceived value of the good or service received. Obviously "repayment" is unlikely to take the form of cash, although an appropriate quantity may be diverted from his share of treasure en route to the good & the needy.
So to summarize my preliminary thoughts I'd advocate
-- only "simple" simple weapons, eg staff, knife, sling
-- a simple wooden holy symbol
-- no spell books for wizards
-- one days food & water is permitted
-- anything "received" should be earned, most likely through service of some form
Okay, with the anal stuff out of the way let's assume that he makes it to 5th level and so is no longer in day-to-day subsistence mode, let's try to put some finger in the air values to the benefits -- at 5th level he has the following:
-- +5 exalted AC bonus (value at 5 x 5 x 2500 = 62,500!) or ( 5 x 5 x 1000 = 25,000)
-- endure elements (value at 1 x 1 x 2000 x 0.5 = 1000)
-- +1 exalted strike (value at 1 x 1 x 2000 = 2000)
-- sustenance (arbitrary value of 1000GP, ring is 2500 and includes less sleep)
and 3 bonus feats (1,2,4 – no value ascribed )
so equivalent magic items would cost about 66,000 GP, according to DMG p135 about the same amount as an 11th level character. Even valuing the exalted bonus the same as an armor bonus (despite the fact that it will stack nicely with real armor bonuses (eg mage armor or magic vestments) puts it at 25,000GP for a total of around 30,000 (8th/9th level).
At 10th level we have:
-- +7 exalted AC bonus (7 x 7 x 2500 = 122500 or 7 x 7 x 1000 = 49000)
-- +2 exalted strike (2 x 2 x 2000 = 8000)
-- +1 natural armor (1 x 1 x 2000 = 2000)
-- +1 deflection (1 x 1 x 2000 = 2000)
-- +1 resistance (1 x 1 x 1000 = 1000)
-- +2 ability enhancement (2 x 2 x 1000 = 4000)
-- endure elements ( 1000 )
-- sustenance ( 1000 )
-- mind shielding ( as ring = 8000 )
-- DR 5/magic ( 15,000 )
and 6 bonus feats ( 1,2,4,6,8,10 – no value ascribed )
The DR 5/magic is tricky to value, but I've accounted for it as the difference in price between +1 armor and +1 armor of invulnerability.
Equivalent items, as before, would cost about 164,500GP or 91,000GP – slightly above 14th and 12th level wealth equivalently.
Let's assume you go all the way and make it to the dizzy heights of 20th level.
-- +10 exalted AC bonus 250,000 or 100,000
-- +5 exalted strike 50,000
-- +2 natural armor 8000
-- +3 deflection 18,000
-- +3 resistance 9000
-- +8/6/4/2 ability enh. 64,000 + 36,000 + 16,000 + 4000 = 120,000
-- sustenance, mind shielding 9,000
-- DR 10/evil (difficult to value, so double DR5/magic = 30,000 )
-- energy resistance 15 (as ring of minor universal (energy) res. = 144,000)
-- true seeing ( (5 x 9 x 2000 x 2) + 25,000 = 205,000)
-- regeneration (as ring 90,000)
-- freedom of movement (as ring 40,000)
-- greater sustenance (say another 1000 on top of the cost of sustenance)
and 11 bonus feats
So probably between about 800,000 and a 1,000,000 GP depending on how a few things are valued.
Overall although the benefits lack variety they are *very* cost effective ways of gaining some bonuses for some characters (notably monks or druids, possibly with a dash of cleric or sorcerer dropped in).
Obviously these are only approximations, and we lose flexibility with the VoP, but we're not accounting for the values associated with, for example, space limitations or not being able to have the effects taken away (easily).

[Lord_Gareth]

I saw an article (in 2005) by some guy who said the opposite of the OP. He said VoP was overpowered, and he was set to prove it. He wrote this article, that I was impressed enough to save. I don't remember his name; posting with no edits:

Some very strong Vow of Poverty munchkin builds are doable.
First things first, I'm going to be a bit anal in parts of this post, but that's because in interpreting whatever the "official" position on VoP is you need to be like that to some extent.
Then take a look at the FAQ position on VoP:
D&D 3.5 FAQ wrote:
How do the equipment restrictions put on a character by the Vow of Poverty feat affect class-defining items? (Examples include a cleric's holy symbol, a wizard's familiar, a samurai's daisho, and a paladin's mount.)
The Vow of Poverty feat is very specific about the items that a character can own while gaining the benefits of the feat (see page 48 in Book of Exalted Deeds for details). It specifically disallows ownership of masterwork or magic weapons, and thus a samurai who chooses this feat must give up the possession of his daisho (his pair of masterwork weapons). A holy symbol does not appear on the list of eligible items, and thus a strict reading of the feat would disallow the item.
A familiar, special mount, or animal companion isn’t a material possession, and thus a character with Vow of Poverty isn’t restricted from gaining the benefits of such creatures. Remember that the Vow of Poverty feat, like most of the material found in Book of Exalted Deeds, is intended for mature campaigns that are capable of handling difficult role-playing issues—it’s not intended for most hack-and-slash games. A cleric who must give up his holy symbol (effectively preventing him from turning undead or casting any spell that requires a divine focus) could be a very interesting challenge for a player who’s “done it all” and wants to try something
unusual.
First up make sure the player has read & reread the description of the feat on p48. And note that it's very specific about what the ascetic character can own & use:
"you must not own or use any material possessions", except
-- ordinary, simple weapons -- typically a staff
-- simple clothes -- e.g. robe, boots, hat
-- enough food for 1 day in a simple sack
-- spell component pouch
A spell component pouch only provides negligible cost components, so any spell with a costly material component can't be cast. Similarly for focuses. This seems fair, and isn't too big a burden on most (low level) casters.
Divine focus – as the FAQ says, if you go by the letter of the rules you cannot cast any spells with a DF component and cannot turn undead. I would *strongly* advise house ruling to allow a simple (possibly hand-made) holy symbol, equivalent to a wooden holy symbol. It's doable without but it's quite a significant hit on a cleric.
The hit on the wizard is tougher though -- notice the absence of "spell book" from the list? Trickier than holy symbol to justify, and it's exclusion is reasonable by the spirit of the feat too. Suggest switching from wizard to sorcerer unless there's a significant issue with that.
Regarding charity, many of these problems can be overcome through the kindness of strangers (or other party members), however I would regard repeated reliance on charity as contrary to the spirit of the vow, as the non-self sufficient ascetic essentially requires others to provide for him, and is in many regards in receipt of gifts from them. In order to stay closer to the spirit of the vow I would advocate than anything the ascetic receives from another, or anything done for him, should be repaid as best and as soon as possible. The ascetic has renounced worldly goods and though he recognizes that others ascribe material value to things he does not -- any repayment should reflect both the material and perceived value of the good or service received. Obviously "repayment" is unlikely to take the form of cash, although an appropriate quantity may be diverted from his share of treasure en route to the good & the needy.
So to summarize my preliminary thoughts I'd advocate
-- only "simple" simple weapons, eg staff, knife, sling
-- a simple wooden holy symbol
-- no spell books for wizards
-- one days food & water is permitted
-- anything "received" should be earned, most likely through service of some form
Okay, with the anal stuff out of the way let's assume that he makes it to 5th level and so is no longer in day-to-day subsistence mode, let's try to put some finger in the air values to the benefits -- at 5th level he has the following:
-- +5 exalted AC bonus (value at 5 x 5 x 2500 = 62,500!) or ( 5 x 5 x 1000 = 25,000)
-- endure elements (value at 1 x 1 x 2000 x 0.5 = 1000)
-- +1 exalted strike (value at 1 x 1 x 2000 = 2000)
-- sustenance (arbitrary value of 1000GP, ring is 2500 and includes less sleep)
and 3 bonus feats (1,2,4 – no value ascribed )
so equivalent magic items would cost about 66,000 GP, according to DMG p135 about the same amount as an 11th level character. Even valuing the exalted bonus the same as an armor bonus (despite the fact that it will stack nicely with real armor bonuses (eg mage armor or magic vestments) puts it at 25,000GP for a total of around 30,000 (8th/9th level).
At 10th level we have:
-- +7 exalted AC bonus (7 x 7 x 2500 = 122500 or 7 x 7 x 1000 = 49000)
-- +2 exalted strike (2 x 2 x 2000 = 8000)
-- +1 natural armor (1 x 1 x 2000 = 2000)
-- +1 deflection (1 x 1 x 2000 = 2000)
-- +1 resistance (1 x 1 x 1000 = 1000)
-- +2 ability enhancement (2 x 2 x 1000 = 4000)
-- endure elements ( 1000 )
-- sustenance ( 1000 )
-- mind shielding ( as ring = 8000 )
-- DR 5/magic ( 15,000 )
and 6 bonus feats ( 1,2,4,6,8,10 – no value ascribed )
The DR 5/magic is tricky to value, but I've accounted for it as the difference in price between +1 armor and +1 armor of invulnerability.
Equivalent items, as before, would cost about 164,500GP or 91,000GP – slightly above 14th and 12th level wealth equivalently.
Let's assume you go all the way and make it to the dizzy heights of 20th level.
-- +10 exalted AC bonus 250,000 or 100,000
-- +5 exalted strike 50,000
-- +2 natural armor 8000
-- +3 deflection 18,000
-- +3 resistance 9000
-- +8/6/4/2 ability enh. 64,000 + 36,000 + 16,000 + 4000 = 120,000
-- sustenance, mind shielding 9,000
-- DR 10/evil (difficult to value, so double DR5/magic = 30,000 )
-- energy resistance 15 (as ring of minor universal (energy) res. = 144,000)
-- true seeing ( (5 x 9 x 2000 x 2) + 25,000 = 205,000)
-- regeneration (as ring 90,000)
-- freedom of movement (as ring 40,000)
-- greater sustenance (say another 1000 on top of the cost of sustenance)
and 11 bonus feats
So probably between about 800,000 and a 1,000,000 GP depending on how a few things are valued.
Overall although the benefits lack variety they are *very* cost effective ways of gaining some bonuses for some characters (notably monks or druids, possibly with a dash of cleric or sorcerer dropped in).
Obviously these are only approximations, and we lose flexibility with the VoP, but we're not accounting for the values associated with, for example, space limitations or not being able to have the effects taken away (easily).


The author of this article missed the point so hard that he punched himself in the face, got into a duel with his own mirror, lost it, and had to go to the emergency room with any respect I had for him bleeding out of multiple lacerations.

[Story]

I recall seeing that price list posted in a thread once, followed by over 5 pages of everyone explaining why he was wrong.

The mere fact that the Ring of Regeneration is included on that list should clue you in that he has no idea what he's talking about.

[monkey3]

I know I will (justifiably) be accused of simplifying the two threads above me. The way I see it, one has a beef with the conclusion of the price list, so he attacked the poster's mental prowess, and the other has a beef with one item on the list (I assume because the ring it too expensive?).

I will tell you this. In our group, the minmaxer wanted to become a VoP Monk. That by itself means the combination is OP, and should be banned :) He will never play anything that has a power-rating within 20% of the next highest person in the party.

[Lord_Gareth]

I know I will (justifiably) be accused of simplifying the two threads above me. The way I see it, one has a beef with the conclusion of the price list, so he attacked the poster's mental prowess, and the other has a beef with one item on the list (I assume because the ring it too expensive?).

I will tell you this. In our group, the minmaxer wanted to become a VoP Monk. That by itself means the combination is OP, and should be banned :) He will never play anything that has a power-rating within 20% of the next highest person in the party.

...No, it means that your minmaxer is bad at min-maxing. You should probably inform him of this.

EDIT: The point that the article writer missed is that the versatility you miss out on - which he so callously mentioned and then disregarded - is the essence of why wealth is powerful. By locking you out of that versatility and replacing it with un-needed options - options that could be "purchased" more cheaply with spells, feats, class features, or even as wands and potions - it nerfs your character entirely while also imposing limits on the entire party by actively reducing the effective wealth of the group as well.

Are we clear now?

[Story]

and the other has a beef with one item on the list (I assume because the ring it too expensive?).

Actually, the entire list is wrong. The ring is just the most blatant example. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find the previous thread where this was discussed, but IIRC, the people who did the math came up with around a third of WBL, and that's ignoring the lost versatility.

[Alienist]

I know I will (justifiably) be accused of simplifying the two threads above me. The way I see it, one has a beef with the conclusion of the price list, so he attacked the poster's mental prowess, and the other has a beef with one item on the list (I assume because the ring it too expensive?).

I will tell you this. In our group, the minmaxer wanted to become a VoP Monk. That by itself means the combination is OP, and should be banned :) He will never play anything that has a power-rating within 20% of the next highest person in the party.

Pffft. He's obviously not a real min-maxer if he doesn't appreciate the equation:

Monk + Eversmoking Bottle = Ultimate Power.*

*Should be read in Strongbad's dramatic voice-over style.

True story: when people start accusing my 3rd edition monks of being over the top, I know they have no idea what they're talking about. Some things even a flurry of books to the head won't fix.

[Phelix-Mu]

Right, so I totally agree that wealth is more effective from an op perspective. There really is no argument about this, especially as WotC launched their usual barrage of poorly conceived at the design of VoP (enough bonus feats to choke a horse, and a list of options that is roughly the same size, once we chuck the feats that require a given class feature...regeneration that is not...no skill bonuses, really?...gimped resistance, deflection, natural armour...etc).

So, now to return to my point.

You can play a very effective character, as long as you accept a nerf to combat ability and direct flexibility.

To Lord Gareth, I would add that there is a profound difference to being saintly and acting like a saint while also kitting yourself to the gills. Yes, you can voluntarily help people even without VoP, but maintaining a principle even when it is strictly not convenient IS MORALLY SUPERIOR to only doing it when it isn't impacting your adventuring lifestyle substantially. This saintly nature is going to have markedly more impact than simple charitable giving. That mechanics is incapable of reflecting this advantage is irrelevant.

Gandhi would have been a terrible character, but his ability to inspire people and be influential exists nonetheless. And not because he had some cool +5 sandals that made his life easier. And certainly not because of his class features; his actual abilities amount to some scholarly learning, a very high wisdom for a human, and some good interaction skills.

The ability to make people believe that you understand and share in their privation is an extremely powerful ability. You need to take a vow to properly replicate this (sacrifice power for principle, with mechanical penalties if you give in to temptation), and the benefits are substandard (they have to be, or it's not a sacrifice).

Now, a token here. VoP and monk are not optimal. Optimal VoP is probably a cleric or a meldshaper, maybe psionics. Access to magic or a similar ability is a crazy big part of D&D, much to my chagrin.

That aside, the OP's intent to make a VoP character seems very clear. The OP asking for what is permissible given VoP. If we can all stop trying to talk the OP out of it and move the op discussion elsewhere, I'm sure it would be appreciated.

[Rubik]

Yes, you can voluntarily help people even without VoP, but maintaining a principle even when it is strictly not convenient IS MORALLY SUPERIOR to only doing it when it isn't impacting your adventuring lifestyle substantially.Only when it's not putting other people at risk. Like, say, your adventuring companions, the farm girl about to be eaten by hill giants, or the world about to be consumed by an elder evil. Then it's not only morally irresponsible, it's just plain stupid.

[Gavinfoxx]

Only when it's not putting other people at risk. Like, say, your adventuring companions, the farm girl about to be eaten by hill giants, or the world about to be consumed by an elder evil. Then it's not only morally irresponsible, it's just plain stupid.

This, so much this. VoP Nerfs your effectiveness and your ability to combat evil!

Now, if you were using this fix:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4030.0

Things would be okay... you could still fly and have ranged attacks (replicate gloves of endless javelins anyone? Those aren't WEAPONS, they are GLOVES... though that might possibly not work, depending on interpretation)

[Phelix-Mu]

It is entirely within the scope of the fellow party members to judge for themselves whether their companion's moral obligations are tolerable.

My thief refuses to adventure with paladins because she finds that they limit her ability to survive by stealing for a living; this role play concept does not make her less playable, just builds in certain role playing challenges.

It is entirely beyond the scope of any op argument to suggest that one build is inferior simply because they don't make good company or might hold back a party of superior character. Such comparative rubrics are largely subjective and highly dependent on party dynamic, the values of the given characters, and the value that a particular gaming style puts on role play over combat effectiveness.

Characters that are afraid of risk or the chance that someone might get hurt generally stay home. Most campaigns deal with characters that have already taken this responsibility onto themselves.

Just because your prescription for effectiveness doesn't jive with a VoP's morality doesn't mean that it isn't a valid path for an exalted character. The book says that good people do voluntary poverty from time to time. Let's not argue that doing this and being a responsible person are exclusive, because the book says that this is not so.

[Theoboldi]

On a note that is perhaps slightly more helpful to the OP, are psionics allowed in your campaign? I haven't read the entirety of the thread, so peraps this might not be possible for you, but a teshlatora build would make a VoP monk at least somewhat playable. You'd basically be able to buff yourself for combat, get some limited flight, and other things that VoP won't give to you, all of them with needing to spend gold. It still will be needlessly powered down by VoP, but at least you should be able to keep up with your party members that way, especially if your party isn't very optimised.

[Gavinfoxx]

It isn't just combat effectiveness that is nerfed, though...

[JaronK]

I will say that an all VoP party with Vow of Nonviolence and Vow of Peace is gamebreakingly powerful... but also completely wrecks even the concept of the game of D&D. You just all go Diplomancer and make good use of bardic effects and Naberius so that everyone who gets anywhere near you has to make many saves or stop and listen while you convert them to your side. From there you just specialize in fighting mindless things and you're pretty much good to go.

JaronK

[Pandoras Folly]

Right, so I totally agree that wealth is more effective from an op perspective. There really is no argument about this, especially as WotC launched their usual barrage of poorly conceived at the design of VoP (enough bonus feats to choke a horse, and a list of options that is roughly the same size, once we chuck the feats that require a given class feature...regeneration that is not...no skill bonuses, really?...gimped resistance, deflection, natural armour...etc).

So, now to return to my point.

You can play a very effective character, as long as you accept a nerf to combat ability and direct flexibility.

To Lord Gareth, I would add that there is a profound difference to being saintly and acting like a saint while also kitting yourself to the gills. Yes, you can voluntarily help people even without VoP, but maintaining a principle even when it is strictly not convenient IS MORALLY SUPERIOR to only doing it when it isn't impacting your adventuring lifestyle substantially. This saintly nature is going to have markedly more impact than simple charitable giving. That mechanics is incapable of reflecting this advantage is irrelevant.

Gandhi would have been a terrible character, but his ability to inspire people and be influential exists nonetheless. And not because he had some cool +5 sandals that made his life easier. And certainly not because of his class features; his actual abilities amount to some scholarly learning, a very high wisdom for a human, and some good interaction skills.

The ability to make people believe that you understand and share in their privation is an extremely powerful ability. You need to take a vow to properly replicate this (sacrifice power for principle, with mechanical penalties if you give in to temptation), and the benefits are substandard (they have to be, or it's not a sacrifice).

Now, a token here. VoP and monk are not optimal. Optimal VoP is probably a cleric or a meldshaper, maybe psionics. Access to magic or a similar ability is a crazy big part of D&D, much to my chagrin.

That aside, the OP's intent to make a VoP character seems very clear. The OP asking for what is permissible given VoP. If we can all stop trying to talk the OP out of it and move the op discussion elsewhere, I'm sure it would be appreciated.


Thanks Phelix - Mu, you hit the nail on the head.
Basically I want to play this guy
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FOIrYyQawGI/SrlJph6yRfI/AAAAAAAACSE/R13u92mMd3E/s1600/FranciscanMonk.jpg


Not this guy, even though he looks cool
http://paizo.com/image/content/CrimsonThrone/PZO9009-Monk.jpg

Definetly not this guy
http://i.imgur.com/NmKf7.jpg
Though Warforged Pope has a nice ring

[Theoboldi]

Thanks Phelix - Mu, you hit the nail on the head.
Basically I want to play this guy
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FOIrYyQawGI/SrlJph6yRfI/AAAAAAAACSE/R13u92mMd3E/s1600/FranciscanMonk.jpg


Not this guy, even though he looks cool
http://paizo.com/image/content/CrimsonThrone/PZO9009-Monk.jpg

Definetly not this guy
http://i.imgur.com/NmKf7.jpg
Though Warforged Pope has a nice ring

In that case, why not go for a VoP bard with ranks in perform (oratory)? It would fit your concept much better than a monk. Monks in D&D don't do the wise sage very well. They are much more based on the shaolin-type kung fu fighter, even though they don't do it very well. As JaronK has said, a bard will be much better at getting done what you want a monk to do.

[Gavinfoxx]

That picture you want to play?

That class, in D&D terms, is Archivist. A spellcaster.

[Pandoras Folly]

Yes psionics is allowed. Definetly using tashalatora with either Ardent or PsiWarrior

But warminds 5th level ability is boss for a monk with AoO is boss and psionic fist stacks with monk stuff sorta.

Shou disciple looks interesting also as does warshaper and drunken master.

Frankly ill also probably pull a level of elocater, because that firstvlevel power is awesome for jumping chargers and provides a limited sort of fly permanently

[Pandoras Folly]

Me brick wall you guys hitting you head. Games already started cant change that now, now can I?

My God is Moradin, he is a God of action, I will be his hammer on the world. Think paladin with less moral compunctions. Like a flagellating zealot from the medieval era who will prove himself worthy of being saved. One punch at a time. Eventually im going to forge bare handed protected only by my virtue in the eyes of Moradin. Adwarf.

[Theoboldi]

Personally, I think you should leave out PrCs if you are going teshlatora. Losing manifester levels is much worse than losing caster levels is for a spellcaster, as you will be unable to augment your powers sufficiently. I'd be careful even with Elocater, as it will cost you two very weak feats, of which you already would have used two on VoP and one on becoming a teshlatora.
That said, if you already have mobility and spring attack, go and take a level in elocater whenever you want. It won't advance your movement speed or unarmed strike damage, but the ability it gives is pretty awesome and it will still advance your manifesting.

You should also avoid the constant doubleposts. There is an edit button, you know.

[Augmental]

To Lord Gareth, I would add that there is a profound difference to being saintly and acting like a saint while also kitting yourself to the gills. Yes, you can voluntarily help people even without VoP, but maintaining a principle even when it is strictly not convenient IS MORALLY SUPERIOR to only doing it when it isn't impacting your adventuring lifestyle substantially. This saintly nature is going to have markedly more impact than simple charitable giving. That mechanics is incapable of reflecting this advantage is irrelevant.

Taking a vow of poverty increases the chances your group won't succeed in saving the world. The question is if it lowers your chances enough to counteract the moral benefits of voluntary poverty.

[Gavinfoxx]

Passive Way Monk 2/Dominant Ideal Ardent 18 with Tashalatora is fine. Tashalatora, Monastic Training, Practiced Manifester, etc. etc. is fine. Vow of Poverty is optional.

[Pandoras Folly]

Taking a vow of poverty increases the chances your group won't succeed in saving the world. The question is if it lowers your chances enough to counteract the moral benefits of voluntary poverty.

go back and play WoW. What is the price of honor, of resolve of courage? how much coin is your soul? Success is not the goal.

[JaronK]

If the price of personal honor and courage is the entire world dying, you weren't actually very honorable at all, were you? If people are playing high stakes games, where success means "the lich did not awaken the primal dark gods of a previous era to consume the souls of the living", success really is the most important thing. Looking squeaky clean afterwords should really be secondary.

JaronK

[Psyren]

Personally, I think you should leave out PrCs if you are going teshlatora. Losing manifester levels is much worse than losing caster levels is for a spellcaster, as you will be unable to augment your powers sufficiently. I'd be careful even with Elocater, as it will cost you two very weak feats, of which you already would have used two on VoP and one on becoming a teshlatora.

Elocater effectively refunds the feats though, by giving you Teleport and Plane Shift - the equivalent of two Expanded Knowledges, and even discounting them. So it ends up being a wash really. Add in the 10' step and I think it's a very good class. (Just don't stay in for the capstone, it's terrible and not worth losing a third ML.)


Concerning the VoP discussion - I agree that taking such a vow after being tasked with saving the world from whatever could probably be reckless, but my understanding is that people tend to take these vows pretty early on in their character's life, prior to adventuring. So it can't really be held against them simply for being thrust into the spotlight.

[Pandoras Folly]

Exactly Psyren.
Jaronk please do not use save the school of children or bus full of nuns arguments, they don't look clever in person and the sound trite on the internets and if I have to look like a christmass tree in order to beat the lich was it really me doing it?

Free 10 foot step...other than the punching bag of the grandmaster what gives me that? Did I miss it in eclocater?

My character Rev. Ichabod took his vow years before he became an adventurer. I am but the impliment of Moradin. I hope my dm doesnt pull an evil dm move and try to make me use a magical item or the bus full of nuns dies schtick.

Ardent is probaly the clAss im taking next level, lots of points, wisdom based, interesting class features. Warmind has sweeping strike which is boss. I wish I could shove my favorite bits of warmind, elocator, and ardent together.

[Augmental]

Jaronk please do not use save the school of children or bus full of nuns arguments, they don't look clever in person and the sound trite on the internets

What's a "save the bus full of nuns" argument?


and if I have to look like a christmass tree in order to beat the lich was it really me doing it?

The point is, you saved the world, and from an IC viewpoint, nobody cares whether it was you or the magic items pulling the weight.

[Pandoras Folly]

What's a "save the bus full of nuns" argument?



The point is, you saved the world, and from an IC viewpoint, nobody cares whether it was you or the magic items pulling the weight.

The use of extreme examples or what ifs to try and prove a point. For example your wife asks you "the house is on fire ad uou can save either our child or me which one would it be?" You respond the kid, she responds I knew you never loved me. that would be an example.

In context of it means "stop being a assjack JaronK, of course he would use magic items in order to save the world. Its much more important than my stupid vow its where we keep everyone."

[Phelix-Mu]

Exactly Psyren.
Jaronk please do not use save the school of children or bus full of nuns arguments, they don't look clever in person and the sound trite on the internets and if I have to look like a christmass tree in order to beat the lich was it really me doing it?

Free 10 foot step...other than the punching bag of the grandmaster what gives me that? Did I miss it in eclocater?

My character Rev. Ichabod took his vow years before he became an adventurer. I am but the impliment of Moradin. I hope my dm doesnt pull an evil dm move and try to make me use a magical item or the bus full of nuns dies schtick.

I believe that Elocater 7 or 8 gives the character a second 5 foot step in a round, slightly more flexible than the sparring dummy of the master, but the extra levels in Elocater can be hard to justify. It's more or less down to DM sensibility on whether you can use the sparring dummy to add a mechanical benefit to your character, but it seems to me that this can be considered a form of "begging" an item from someone else, as you only need to use it for the short term, and it seems that the item can be used by multiple monks (though only so many at the same time). Thus, a non-owner could train with it.

So, find someone that can help you locate such a sparring dummy and trade services to compensate for the privilege of training with it.

My friend played a magnificent VoP spellscale exalted cleric of Hleid in one of my campaigns. I made a few adjustments to RAW and allowed the burning of experience to pay for expensive spell components, as well as begging spell components off of other party members, all of which are fairly kosher given RAI. This character was very effective in a mid-op game, and dealt a large amount of damage on a regular basis, never holding anyone else back. Granted, the spellscale was a high-tier caster, hard to compare it to the default monk. Moreover, a huge amount of this character's legacy involved helping push the mish-mash-alignment party in the direction of good-ish behavior (the warlock was a bit of a lost cause, but the spellscale had a good effect on the neutral druid), as well as championing the cause of normal people everywhere. Sure, he could have done similar things without VoP, but gained prestige from the strength of his conviction and dedication.

There is no better way to fight evil in the world than to epitomize goodness in your own life. To suggest that personal virtue helps evil win is to miss the point of being good.

I will make a second plug for Leadership. Pick a class that can both improve you own abilities and help the party as well. And you can recruit someone that shares some of your ideals, like devotion to Moradin or the use of exalted stuff.

[Pandoras Folly]

I like leadershi, but igot to run it by the dm. I've tried to use it in the past and was told No because it was too much trouble to keep up with my camp of followers. Ill definetly see about it.

What classes would u suggest? Looked at divine mind, was very much not impressed. Warmaster I think was a leadership based prc that seemed good.

[Phelix-Mu]

I like leadershi, but igot to run it by the dm. I've tried to use it in the past and was told No because it was too much trouble to keep up with my camp of followers. Ill definetly see about it.

What classes would u suggest? Looked at divine mind, was very much not impressed. Warmaster I think was a leadership based prc that seemed good.

There are a plethora of viable choices for cohort classes. In general, try to get something that is going to be useful in a variety of situations or that fills some gap in the existing party makeup.

Clerics can make good cohorts for obvious reasons, but so can ardents. Maximum spell level will suffer, but a support caster will be useful regardless.

If you want some Moradin flavor, there are some cool classes out there. Battlesmith deserves mention because it can contribute to a strong combat build while also granting some crafting of magic arms and armour, something the rest of the party is sure to appreciate.

[Pandoras Folly]

Battlesmith sounds flavorful cleric as well, there was a prc in one of the oriental advenures book that was basically an anti ninja body guard. Reduced sneak attack damage, great spot, stuff like that. That might be good as part of the team hmm ill think about it.

[Augmental]

The use of extreme examples or what ifs to try and prove a point. For example your wife asks you "the house is on fire ad uou can save either our child or me which one would it be?" You respond the kid, she responds I knew you never loved me. that would be an example.

A lot of campaigns do eventually reach high-stakes at a high level, however. Not necessarily a cosmic level, but at least worldwide.

[Psyren]

Free 10 foot step...other than the punching bag of the grandmaster what gives me that? Did I miss it in eclocater?

Two 5' actually, but they can't be interrupted so it works out the same. (Capricious Step.)


I believe that Elocater 7 or 8 gives the character a second 5 foot step in a round, slightly more flexible than the sparring dummy of the master, but the extra levels in Elocater can be hard to justify.

Again, I fail to see why. Yeah you lose 2 ML, but you gain 2 powers that are otherwise very hard for Psywars (and even Ardents!) to get, you get unparalleled flexibility in flanking, 10' step, ignore difficult terrain/pressure traps, 6+Int skills from a great list, free AoO on chargers etc. And losing 1-2 ML is standard for psionic PrCs anyway. I just don't see the issue.

[Lord_Gareth]

To Lord Gareth, I would add that there is a profound difference to being saintly and acting like a saint while also kitting yourself to the gills. Yes, you can voluntarily help people even without VoP, but maintaining a principle even when it is strictly not convenient IS MORALLY SUPERIOR to only doing it when it isn't impacting your adventuring lifestyle substantially. This saintly nature is going to have markedly more impact than simple charitable giving. That mechanics is incapable of reflecting this advantage is irrelevant.

You know what, no. Now I'm insulted.

"Your adventuring lifestyle." You make it sound like an entertainment. Have you thought for even ten minutes about what a good-aligned character's "lifestyle" is? They spend their time in incredibly hostile environments - evil temples, dungeons, fortresses of hostility, dark wildernesses, fetid swamps, planes physically composed of evil - in the name of defending the innocent. They have more lethal combats every day than they do meals, confront dark magic capable of scarring or slaughtering them forever, fight back beings that devour their souls, hold back tides of corruption, chaos, and fountains of negative energy and anti-life, and actively seek out those things that might harm the weak and innocent, pro-actively putting themselves in danger. They do this every day of their lives, facing beings of exponentially greater and greater power to threaten mind, body, soul, morality, and sanity, and they do it with no expectation of reward, and you dare to claim that if they also find the time to succor the weak, offer hope to the hopeless, feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, and help the helpless while also keeping the realities of their situation in mind they're somehow less moral than someone with Vow of Poverty?

How dare you.

The men and women I described above are saints without peer who should be accorded respect and honor by the innocent they defend and the weak they shelter. Deliberately abiding by a misguided vow that prevents them from holding back the never-ending tide of corruption that exists in the D&D universe isn't just suboptimal, it's immoral.

Good day, sir.

[Phelix-Mu]

You know what, no. Now I'm insulted.

"Your adventuring lifestyle." You make it sound like an entertainment. Have you thought for even ten minutes about what a good-aligned character's "lifestyle" is? They spend their time in incredibly hostile environments - evil temples, dungeons, fortresses of hostility, dark wildernesses, fetid swamps, planes physically composed of evil - in the name of defending the innocent. They have more lethal combats every day than they do meals, confront dark magic capable of scarring or slaughtering them forever, fight back beings that devour their souls, hold back tides of corruption, chaos, and fountains of negative energy and anti-life, and actively seek out those things that might harm the weak and innocent, pro-actively putting themselves in danger. They do this every day of their lives, facing beings of exponentially greater and greater power to threaten mind, body, soul, morality, and sanity, and they do it with no expectation of reward, and you dare to claim that if they also find the time to succor the weak, offer hope to the hopeless, feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, and help the helpless while also keeping the realities of their situation in mind they're somehow less moral than someone with Vow of Poverty?

How dare you.

The men and women I described above are saints without peer who should be accorded respect and honor by the innocent they defend and the weak they shelter. Deliberately abiding by a misguided vow that prevents them from holding back the never-ending tide of corruption that exists in the D&D universe isn't just suboptimal, it's immoral.

Good day, sir.

Ah, my bad. I was more hyperbolic than intended. My apologies.

I stand by the essence of what I said though, if not the manner in which I said it. It was a mistake for me to "compare" goodness, but it was equally a mistake for anyone to suggest that you can't be good/responsible while doing something that the book explicitly lays out as a virtue of the highest order.

And, y'all were kind of ragging on the OP a bit.


Two 5' actually, but they can't be interrupted so it works out the same. (Capricious Step.)
Again, I fail to see why. Yeah you lose 2 ML, but you gain 2 powers that are otherwise very hard for Psywars (and even Ardents!) to get, you get unparalleled flexibility in flanking, 10' step, ignore difficult terrain/pressure traps, 6+Int skills from a great list, free AoO on chargers etc. And losing 1-2 ML is standard for psionic PrCs anyway. I just don't see the issue.

Upon reflection, Psyren is also right. Elocater is overall very strong. I was looking at it mainly in light of a totally different character a while back, and apparently misremembered it a bit. The OP did mention a simple dip, however, and netting the Capricious Step definitely transcends dipping. It would be a solid part of your career at that point.

[Xenogears]

Two 5' actually, but they can't be interrupted so it works out the same. (Capricious Step.)

Or combine it with the sparring dummy of the grandmaster and get TWO 10` steps and be able to move as much as a small character's move action as a free action.

[Theoboldi]

Upon reflection, Psyren is also right. Elocater is overall very strong. I was looking at it mainly in light of a totally different character a while back, and apparently misremembered it a bit. The OP did mention a simple dip, however, and netting the Capricious Step definitely transcends dipping. It would be a solid part of your career at that point.

I also have to agree. While I wouldn't call Elocater 'very strong', it certainly is decent in the right build. It certainly allows for a lot of mobility, even though it still has the monk's usual problem of not getting to full attack after it uses that mobility, so you'll have to watch out for that. And dimension step is pretty worthless. It also won't advance your monk abilities, but it's not like they are much better than what elocator offers you.

[Phelix-Mu]

I also have to agree. While I wouldn't call Elocater 'very strong', it certainly is decent in the right build. It certainly allows for a lot of mobility, even though it still has the monk's usual problem of not getting to full attack after it uses that mobility, so you'll have to watch out for that. And dimension step is pretty worthless. It also won't advance your monk abilities, but it's not like they are much better than what elocator offers you.

Ah, right, teleporting.... If you plan to be teleporting as a monk, take a close look at the Sun School tactical feat in Complete Warrior. I am playing a monk/abj champ in an epic level campaign atm, and I find this feat to be quite useful. Granted, 90% of the usefulness so far has come from the final tactic, but it is a strong benefit, especially if you can swing some kind of swift or move action teleport (or Immediate Magic's Abrupt Jaunt).

[Lord_Gareth]

Ah, my bad. I was more hyperbolic than intended. My apologies.

I stand by the essence of what I said though, if not the manner in which I said it. It was a mistake for me to "compare" goodness, but it was equally a mistake for anyone to suggest that you can't be good/responsible while doing something that the book explicitly lays out as a virtue of the highest order.

And, y'all were kind of ragging on the OP a bit.

We've been "ragging" on the OP because he asked how to make VoP broken and the legitimate answer is, "You can't."

And as far as being incapable of being responsible while under VoP? That's exactly correct. Certainly, you can be Good, to an extent (BoED and Champions of Valor both talk about how combating evil is a Good act, but it's not the only Good act), but responsible, no, because helping the weak is only part of the solution. Those soul-eating abominations I described above? They gather in armies, in shadowy cabals, and in the sewers of cities, and the responsible good-aligned character does what she can to combat those beings in accordance to her personal level of power and capability. Vow of Poverty takes a person who would otherwise be able to shield innocent souls from the depredations of demons, devils, dark slaad, chromatic dragons, evil sorcerers, corrupt clerics, and other threats to mind and soul capable of turning a good person into an evil one or devouring their immortal being entirely and turns that person into someone who CANNOT do these things - the essence of irresponsibility, really, hence why I mentioned that VoP on an adventurer is immoral.

On an abbot in a mountain temple? Great. A saint of the slums, sleeping in the shadow of the buildings and offering what he can to those as poor and wretched as he is? Certainly. On a HERO? Never.

[Greenish]

We've been "ragging" on the OP because he asked how to make VoP broken and the legitimate answer is, "You can't."Well, if you're the DM you could. Run a really low wealth campaign, or only give players sucky loot and no option to buy/craft the stuff they want, and VoP becomes way better than not having VoP, to an extent that can seriously disrupt the game.

[Xenogears]

Well, if you're the DM you could. Run a really low wealth campaign, or only give players sucky loot and no option to buy/craft the stuff they want, and VoP becomes way better than not having VoP, to an extent that can seriously disrupt the game.

Also even though VoP gives you a clear list of what you can own it doesn't actually say you have to give all your money away. It says you have to donate "most" of your money and leaves the rest of it up in the air. So if you cross your eyes and squint at the rules a little you could donate 51% of your wealth to the Temple of [Insert Deity Here] and the rest to your adventuring buddies.

[Greenish]

Or you could try to get your adventuring group declared a charitable organization, and just funnel the money there.

[Story]

We've been "ragging" on the OP because he asked how to make VoP broken and the legitimate answer is, "You can't."


Technically, you can make it broken if you manage to stick it on your Animal Companion. On a PC of course, it's always at best a mediocre option.

[Lord_Gareth]

Technically, you can make it broken if you manage to stick it on your Animal Companion. On a PC of course, it's always at best a mediocre option.

Ah yes, the old VoP Blink Dog trick.

[Rubik]

There is no better way to fight evil in the world than to epitomize goodness in your own life. To suggest that personal virtue helps evil win is to miss the point of being good.
Problem is, there's nothing "good" about being poor. In D&D that just means that you're more likely to die while trying to do other good deeds.

[Pandoras Folly]

Lawful, not good. It was part of his monastic vows before becoming an adventurer, as a member of The Holy Order and Fastness of St. Generic (pronounced Jen-err-ick.) To be relieved of his vow, special dispensation would have to be given by either superiors in his order, by a representative of a higher power, or if he jas to mcguffin a bus full of nuns to saftey. We dont want a kolyarut coming after me.

[Lord_Gareth]

Lawful, not good. It was part of his monastic vows before becoming an adventurer, as a member of The Holy Order and Fastness of St. Generic (pronounced Jen-err-ick.) To be relieved of his vow, special dispensation would have to be given by either superiors in his order, by a representative of a higher power, or if he jas to mcguffin a bus full of nuns to saftey. We dont want a kolyarut coming after me.

First, the Vow is (supposed to be) about Good, not Law, and is not enforced by anyone above and beyond oneself.

Second, Kolyaruts come after those whose violations of contracts strengthen chaos, or who would dare to violate treaties, contracts, and agreements made with the powers of Law - in essence, they come after people whose oathbreaking harms or even threatens MULTIVERSAL order. Your personal vows (Vow of Poverty, wedding vows, "I'll be there next Thursday, I promise,") mean diddly to them.

[Pandoras Folly]

As long as my dm doesnt make myvow breaking threaten nuns in a bus two dimensions over I'm sure ill be fine.

Ichabods vow was made as it was a requirement to enter the holy order, not because he thought it was good in particular. I dont really see the word good in the raw of VoP, (however I am looking at internet resources not the actual book so I might be wrong) although im sure its RAI as it is in the goodly book of goodly godlyness.

[Oscredwin]

As long as my dm doesnt make myvow breaking threaten nuns in a bus two dimensions over I'm sure ill be fine.

Ichabods vow was made as it was a requirement to enter the holy order, not because he thought it was good in particular. I dont really see the word good in the raw of VoP, (however I am looking at internet resources not the actual book so I might be wrong) although im sure its RAI as it is in the goodly book of goodly godlyness.

VoP is in the Book of Exalted Deeds and is an Exalted feat.

[Pandoras Folly]

Thank you for repeating me oscredwin we are all so glad you can both read and type. A cookie for you

[Kelb_Panthera]

Taking a vow of poverty increases the chances your group won't succeed in saving the world. The question is if it lowers your chances enough to counteract the moral benefits of voluntary poverty.
I realize this was meant in sarcasm, but it highlights the single biggest flaw in the argument against VoP. It presupposes that taking -any- option that decreases your chances for success is morally reprehensible. By that rubrik a would-be hero taking levels in any non-casting class is being just as morally reprehensible. If you can't be truly good without making the most optimal choice, then only T1 classes can be truly good.

Does that sound right to anyone?

go back and play WoW. What is the price of honor, of resolve of courage? how much coin is your soul? Success is not the goal.

50gp is the minimum market value. The maximum is 60% of your net worth. :smallbiggrin:

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Pandoras Folly]

I realize this was meant in sarcasm, but it highlights the single biggest flaw in the argument against VoP. It presupposes that taking -any- option that decreases your chances for success is morally reprehensible. By that rubrik a would-be hero taking levels in any non-casting class is being just as morally reprehensible. If you can't be truly good without making the most optimal choice, then only T1 classes can be truly good.

Does that sound right to anyone?


50gp is the minimum market value. The maximum is 60% of your net worth. :smallbiggrin:

Sorry, couldn't resist.


So only pun pun is truely good?

[Psyren]

Upon reflection, Psyren is also right. Elocater is overall very strong. I was looking at it mainly in light of a totally different character a while back, and apparently misremembered it a bit. The OP did mention a simple dip, however, and netting the Capricious Step definitely transcends dipping. It would be a solid part of your career at that point.

I used to think it was weak too - until I wrote my Psychic Rogue handbook. Then I thought - I'm a thief that can plane-hop. Anywhere in the multiverse. Without needing a focus. Suck it, Johnny Law :smallwink:


It also won't advance your monk abilities, but it's not like they are much better than what elocator offers you.

Tashalatora (Elocater) will advance the important stuff if you really want them that much.



On an abbot in a mountain temple? Great. A saint of the slums, sleeping in the shadow of the buildings and offering what he can to those as poor and wretched as he is? Certainly. On a HERO? Never.

There's a saying about the word "never" that seems applicable here :smallwink:

Think about it for a sec - those items you're donating? Who's to say another hero isn't putting them on? And now you have two heroes (One with e.g. psionics + VoP - so he definitely doesn't need any gear - and one with the aforementioned equipment) tricked out for the price of one. Now you can fight evil on two fronts.

After all, that Good-aligned temple you gave them to is almost certainly going to be doling them out to subsequent do-gooders as quest rewards. Or even offering them up to Good deities (there are rules for sacrificing magic items in BoED) to sanctify various locations. Remember Light's Hope Chapel in WoW? The one location in all of the Plaguelands where the Lich King's influence couldn't spread, because it was protected - a nice safe haven for adventurers to congregate and rest up while facing impossible odds. But living sacrifice isn't an option for most good deities, so magic items are a useful substitute.

Symbolism is a very large part of magic; not everything can be boiled down to simple gp-based accounting. And not all of the loot an adventurer finds is going to be useful anyway (a magic broadsword is pointless for an exalted monk, and an exalted druid has no use for half-plate.)

[Pandoras Folly]

Hmmm. Good aligned elocater who tracks Down criminals across the planes to bring them to justice, he also serves court papers like seth Rogan in pineapple express.

Could also produce judge dred style transdimensional agent of L.A.W.


Not with my VoP monk, as adifferent character base

[ButtSoup]

You should try playing a character who's taken a vow of poverty without the vow of poverty feat :smallbiggrin:

[Gavinfoxx]

You should try playing a character who's taken a vow of poverty without the vow of poverty feat :smallbiggrin:

That is actually better, since you can come up with the particulars of your actual vow, and the limits and requirements of it... mostly, it means 'all your swag is actually owned by and willed to your church' and you have restrictions of what you can use, and the actual circumstances, but you can figure out those exact restrictions in a meaningful, sane way...

[JaronK]

So only pun pun is truely good?

In my games he's the savior of the universe. He ascended, gained infinite intelligence and wisdom, and thus knows he's in a game. He also knows that the game will end if the game is too broken to continue, so he because the god of exploits and broken stuff. He thus detects if you're going to break the game in advance and sends a nut pun down to tell you not to do it. If needed the nut pun will rebuild you into something more appropriate. Thus he preserves the game for all.

JaronK

[Muktidata]

I didn't read the (presumably) 3 pages of "boohoo someone took vop and is using the monk class" so forgive me if someone made similar suggestions to mine. If I were going to play a single-class vop monk, along with all the ACF's that make a single class monk better, I'd consider picking up these feats (since feats and skills are the only customization you're allowed at this point):

General:
Wild Cohort - Get whatever you want.
Leadership - Get a dedicated buffer.
Improved Natural Attack
Superior Unarmed Strike
Jotunbrud or Wolf Berseker (if Human)
Ability Focus: Stunning Fist
Abberation Blood: Flexible Limbs (LoM)
Inhuman Reach (LoM)

Monk Bonus:
Improved Grapple
Combat Reflexes
Improved Trip

Exalted:
Sanctify Ki Strike (BOED)
Fist of the Heavens (BOED)
Vow of Nonviolence (BOED)
Vow of Peace (BOED)

Just make sure your party convinced your character to randomly go check another area while they slaughter whatever you stun.

[Greenish]

I dont really see the word good in the raw of VoP, (however I am looking at internet resources not the actual book so I might be wrong) although im sure its RAI as it is in the goodly book of goodly godlyness.


VoP is in the Book of Exalted Deeds and is an Exalted feat.Thank you for repeating me oscredwin we are all so glad you can both read and type. A cookie for youYou're missing the implications here. "Exalted feat" is a game term with specific implications, one of them being that only characters of "good alignment and highest of morals" can take them. They're also Supernatural and turn off if you ever willingly commit an evil act.

So yes, VoP is, explicitly, by RAW, a Good-only feat, as Oscredwin tried to tell you.

[Oscredwin]

You're missing the implications here. "Exalted feat" is a game term with specific implications, one of them being that only characters of "good alignment and highest of morals" can take them. They're also Supernatural and turn off if you ever willingly commit an evil act.

So yes, VoP is, explicitly, by RAW, a Good-only feat, as Oscredwin tried to tell you.

Thank you.

[Psyren]

In my games he's the savior of the universe. He ascended, gained infinite intelligence and wisdom, and thus knows he's in a game. He also knows that the game will end if the game is too broken to continue, so he because the god of exploits and broken stuff. He thus detects if you're going to break the game in advance and sends a nut pun down to tell you not to do it. If needed the nut pun will rebuild you into something more appropriate. Thus he preserves the game for all.

JaronK

And also makes it completely meaningless as nobody (not Asmodeus, not Ao, not Shar, not Vecna, not Cthulhu etc.) can ever "win the game." Evil's ultimate goal is to end the game - LE through tyranny, CE through annihilation, NE through supporting whichever side lets them have fun along the way. And not one of them can stand up to Pun-Pun, so why are heroes needed? It seems surpassingly boring to me. Just ban things OOC without trying to justify it with this kind of overgod, I say.

Plus, I supremely dislike the idea that kobolds are the chosen race capable of this kind of ultimate power. They're glorified goblins as far as I'm concerned, and only D&D's dragonwank fetish led to authors making them into so much more through such massively poor editing.

[Greenish]

I thought original Pun Pun was a kobold not because he had to be, but to demonstrate that the tactic works for even the weakest of critters (which kobolds were, at the time).

[Psyren]

Doesn't the (reptilian) subtype let Manipulate Form work on them sooner? Or something. It's been a long time since I read it anyways. The point is that I don't even want to acknowledge that thing's existence to the extent of saying "sorry, someone already ascended and they're preventing you from doing the same thing" when it's easier simply to say "no."

[JaronK]

And also makes it completely meaningless as nobody (not Asmodeus, not Ao, not Shar, not Vecna, not Cthulhu etc.) can ever "win the game." Evil's ultimate goal is to end the game - LE through tyranny, CE through annihilation, NE through supporting whichever side lets them have fun along the way. And not one of them can stand up to Pun-Pun, so why are heroes needed? It seems surpassingly boring to me. Just ban things OOC without trying to justify it with this kind of overgod, I say.

It gives an in game reason for things not to get broken without me having to find things in advance. But heroes are needed because Pun Pun makes sure they're always needed. He is, in effect, an in game explanation for the DM's interference to keep the game running smooth.


Plus, I supremely dislike the idea that kobolds are the chosen race capable of this kind of ultimate power. They're glorified goblins as far as I'm concerned, and only D&D's dragonwank fetish led to authors making them into so much more through such massively poor editing.

So many people hate Kobolds. I think they got popular specifically because they were the underdog.

And yes, their reptilian subtype was important to the Pun Pun loop. Manipulate Form only works on Reptilians.

JaronK

[Kazyan]

VoP Monk to Pun-Pun in 5 pages. Just throwing this out there.

[Pandoras Folly]

Thread trains are easily derailed.