What's a Goblin to do!?!?

[Ranting Fool]

Hi there playgrounders I was just wondering what you lot would do / think would happen if..... A few tribes of Goblins wanted to move into your new town :smallbiggrin:

First of a few important facts to note:

A large catastrophe happened awhile back forcing many tribes of monstrous humanoids to migrate into more human controlled lands. There have been a lot of minor conflicts over this which the PC's have not been involved in. One of the races was a number of Goblin Tribes. Now these Goblins are most likely Chaotically Neutral rather then straight up always evil. They are lead by an NPC favored soul (Baggle) who as far as the PC's can tell has a rather good nature (Tried to join the PC's but they didn't want him, heard about him trying to join other groups and getting rejected / kicked out as having a Goblin around caused hassle) poor Baggle unites a few tribes and tries to find a new home for them but mostly gets chased away from major settlements and attacked on sight by almost everyone.

At the same time our heroes have decided that the best way to deal with some more evil aligned settlements is to start their own town! Using high diplomacy and fame they go around preaching about how their new town will be all inclusive and offer protection to all who wish to live there (As the PC's seem obsessed with growing their settlement to a large city as soon as possible, even thinking about paying people to move their / build homes and hire them as workers)

When the PC's do a Sending to Baggle to ask about information on another topic he tells them of his tribes plight and how he has heard that they welcome everyone and offer protection to all! The PC's feel sorry for him and tell him to come on and start moving his tribes to a new home, and talk with the local human nomads and convince them not to attack the Goblins (not too hard as the Goblins are leaving their land though the nomads did laugh very very hard)

Then the heroes go off, 5 weeks later game time and one day in real life our heroes have decided that maybe inviting an unknown number of Goblins (assumed to be between 150-400 counting young and non-combat) might be a bad idea. So they've announced that when the Goblins turn up they will just tell them they have to go live in the stone quarry two days ride away and work for the PC's and they'll post some guards to protect them in case some other heroes come along and slay them all.

Am I just wrong in thinking that Baggle may not be pleased with this agreement? What do you think their reaction should be?

A few factors:
The Goblins haven't turned up yet.
When they do they are not anywhere near a match for the PC's in a fight.
They had to have traveled at least 500 miles to get to the new town.
The Stone Quarry is owned and run as a prison (though the owners are all Mind controlled and taken away the PC's are trying to save them as soon as they can)
The Stone Quarry is sitting right on top a temple to the Evil Dragon God (mostly cleared by PC's but not all of it) which may be why the quarry owners all got Mind Controlled.
Granite Quarry work is rather hard manual labor. (Not the kind of thing Goblins are famous for)
Some Goblins might be allowed into the town but only if they prove they have useful trade skills and only if they submit to magical detection/control (Circle of Truth/Mark of Justice type things)
The Quarry Guards would be hired mercs and not the Dragon Slaying heroes or their loyal cohorts and followers.
The PC's keep isn't built yet, and they currently don't have any funds to build any outer walls for civilians yet.
The PC's are all around level 13-14 LG Knight, LG Wizard, CN Warlock, CG Duskblade (whos Landlord feat has allowed him to build his small keep, with the help of the others)

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Hmmmm, well I for one think your PC's are big fat stupid heads for being hypocrits and going back on their word. But goblins being goblins, they may just have to suck it up and take the best deal being offered them under protest.

Ironically, because of the rules for small creatures eating a less and lower cost of small size equipment; small creatures with -2 strength are better at manual labor en masse than stronger medium creatures.

Given time the goblins could develop large numbers of characters with profession skills at which they'd be just as good as any race without a racial bonus to the skill or wisdom.

If the area has some potential threats they may eventually form some all goblin adventuring parties to clear dungeon rooms and surrounding wilderness. Other monstrous races may learn of the goblin community and come join the truly inclusive community.

[lsfreak]

Even if he can't do anything about it, Baggle would be furious. Have a really good What The Hell Hero speech prepared. On top of that, after their hardship, he'd probably have a lot of trouble keeping the other goblins with him in line. The entire group would probably splinter into smaller factions, some splitting away and wandering off, some attacking villagers trying to get into the city to try and get enough to survive, some staying with Baggle.

Best-case is the PC's realize that their actions destroyed the will of a bunch of innocents, forcing many of them to turn to crime because they see no other way to survive. Worst-case word spreads that their awesome city full of good people was raided constantly in its early days, ruining their endeavor for months or years due to how rumors spread and how hard they are to get rid of.

[Zanthy1]

Baggle and his goblins would be incredibly pissed. They were promised salvation then told "go live in that crappy throwaway area, do hard work for us, and were going to have some guards "protect you." Sound like Soviet Russia under Stalin and his Gulags. If it were truly "all inclusive" then they would welcome the goblins as citizens, who could actually prove to be a valuable asset. Nothing wrong with monstrous humanoids living in harmony, so long as they follow the laws, all should be fine. What the PCs should do is write up a code of laws and enforce them throughout the city. Have the police force made up of all the races living in the town/city limits.

If the players actually condemned the goblins to the stone quarry, essentially using them and tricking them, I as a DM would not allow them to remain LG any longer. This seems like an evil acts of lies, deceit, trickery, greed, ignorance, racism, and overall rudeness.

[Yajirobe]

I agree with all the above. I wouldn't go as far as saying "no more LG for you guys!", but I'd stress that it is a serious "mark" on their Alignment curricula, any Paladin would lose their powers (and the Atonement would be "give the goblins a home to call their own") and any big players of the LG goody-two-shoes clique (order of paladins, your standard LG noble that is not a paladin but follows that Arthurian role model) that find out about how PCs deal with their "hosts" would have a SERIOUS beef with the PCs.

I also would start to create a small but brooding and fast growing Freedom Fighter movement with the goblins and maybe Baggle might have a weak retort against Maglubiyet argument that everyone is out for themselves and the goblins must carve a place of their own by any means necessary since every offer of help with a goblin shall come with slavery or poor treatment.

To make a point, I'd also make some slavery ring to contact the PCs offering to "take some goblins away from them" simply because, by the treatment and trickery, the Ring assumed the PCs are okay with slavery and would like to make some quick coin. It is not for them to accept. It is for them to be outrraged by the thought.


"Heavy is the burden of the head who bears the crown". Never make a promise that you can't back up or have the means to quash the opposition when they find out about the lie. If your PCs don't know that, they must learn it before they become true rulers and, now they just found themselves on the hardest way to learn it.

[Grollub]

I would think the Goblins would be very pissed off at this turn of events. They are too weak to really do much about it tho. Only choices they really have is to leave ( and be totally screwed ) or "accept" the terms for now.

As a DM, I think i would have the goblins move into the mine, and make the best of what they can; possibly mining and striking it rich. Offering to pay the mercs more to come to "their" side of things; the Goblins could also "refuse" the merc guards too. The PC's can't really charge in and slay the settlement if they expect "their own" settlement to attract more people; especially if the goblins are "friendly" to them. Could be like a miner boom town to compete with the PC's too.. hehehe


The Goblins make a deal with any intelligent creatures that are in the leftover temple to work with them.. or you could have the temple leftovers attack the goblin "town" and call the PC's for aid. OR as someone else suggested, maybe the goblins form their own "adventurer group(s)" and clear the temple out eventually, eventually having their own heroes!!!

[Rubik]

How bad would the PCs feel if they received reports that all the adult goblins are dead from the monsters left in the temple, and now all that's left are the crying, starving children they died to protect, clinging to their parents' bodies and wondering why, why, why?!

And how much would other creatures trust them after learning about what happened?

[Fable Wright]

As a goblin? I'd be pissed. Equality turning into forced labor camps does not a happy society make. There would probably be factionizing in the goblin groups, and at least one of the goblins is going to discover a secret passage way to the temple of the Evil Dragon God, and is probably in desperate enough straights to make a deal. Service for the Dragon God, convert his people to the God's faith, in exchange for divine aid for his people and clerical powers. After gaining a substatial cult following, he challenges Baggle's right to lead his people, and to the surprise of everyone, curbstomps him and kicks him out of the tribe, with all of his diehard followers. The new goblin leader then takes over the camp, seals it with magic the PCs can't bypass (probably a Sacrifice, as per the BoVD, for a Forbiddance over mine, and Permanent Walls of Force to keep the PCs out. Probably proximity Alarm spells, too) and then provide for his people by conjuring food, while they begin a ritual to summon an avatar of the Evil Dragon God to aid them in conquering a new home, if they can't get one peacefully. Baggle escapes and tells the heroes about this turn of events, leading to a great What the Hell, Hero?

[Zanthy1]

I really like the idea of the Goblins striking it super rich after clearing out the temple and getting more powerful goblins (ones with class levels). Imagine if the goblins turn their "exile" village into the most rich town on the continent? Like the dwarven city in the Hobbit, but without the Smaug.

I also like the idea about becoming cultists of the evil dragon, but what if Baggle didn't fight the new guy, but actually lead the movement to follow him? He was leading the group of vagabonds around the world searching for a home, but this goblin who made a deal with the evil dragon steps up to lead the goblins into forming their own unified nation. If Baggle threw his support towards him, then almost all the goblins would surely follow as well.

Also give more goblins class levels, so that if the PCs decide to commit some genocide, they have a chance at defending themselves.

BTW, I am rooting for the goblins in this scenario, I think they have a very dynamic role :smallsmile:

[Metahuman1]

Baggle and his goblins would be incredibly pissed. They were promised salvation then told "go live in that crappy throwaway area, do hard work for us, and were going to have some guards "protect you." Sound like Soviet Russia under Stalin and his Gulags. If it were truly "all inclusive" then they would welcome the goblins as citizens, who could actually prove to be a valuable asset. Nothing wrong with monstrous humanoids living in harmony, so long as they follow the laws, all should be fine. What the PCs should do is write up a code of laws and enforce them throughout the city. Have the police force made up of all the races living in the town/city limits.

If the players actually condemned the goblins to the stone quarry, essentially using them and tricking them, I as a DM would not allow them to remain LG any longer. This seems like an evil acts of lies, deceit, trickery, greed, ignorance, racism, and overall rudeness.

Pretty much this. Mr. Warlock, your Evil now. Mr. Duskblade, your CN. Mr. Wizard, your now True Neutral as your act was both Evil and Lawful. Mr. Knight, same thing, particularly since you violated any reasonable knights code.

It's what I'd tell them. Don't have class features anymore cause you've broken your alignment restrictions? Tough.

Go get and Atonement spell. And to get the spell, you have to help the goblins get settled in to your city proper. Best of luck with that.

[Mnemnosyne]

Rough as it might be, if they follow through with it, I too would have them shift alignment. This isn't a minor thing they're doing; they've caused these goblins to make a several hundred mile journey. Some of them may have died to hazards along the way. Others may have lost prized personal possessions. They did this with the promise of a new home that would welcome them and treat them fairly. For the PCs to suddenly betray the goblins after that might not seem like much to them, but they would be causing serious harm to hundreds of innocents with their callous disregard for their well being, failure to live up to their promises, and so forth. Most of them probably shouldn't realize their alignment changed, though, unless they have some way of detecting that.

The knight probably loses his knights challenge class feature and becomes an Ex-Knight, because such a betrayal absolutely is at odds with the intent and spirit of the knights code which requires honor and fair play.

As soon as word spreads about what they've done, they should start to be viewed as corrupt, at the very least, if not outright villains. Even if nobody liked the goblins in the first place, that's a far cry from approving of the goblins being tricked into a 'voluntary' work camp. Racists and those who would just as soon see goblins killed should support the PCs behavior, but generally good groups should not. Even if they were generally opposed to the goblins presence, this goes a step too far. I also second the idea of having slavers extend an offer to buy some of the goblins. Or perhaps have the slavers offer to sell some slaves to them, because obviously they have no issues with that sort of behavior.

Don't turn the goblins into villains. The players will then feel justified in their behavior, as though this proves that they should have been poorly treated in the first place. They will probably refuse to accept their own behavior as the cause; they'll claim that if the goblins weren't evil, they wouldnt have accepted the evil dragon gods offer or something. Alternately, have some of the goblins become villains. The other ones manage to defeat them, perhaps saving some of the other local townsfolk, and start on the path to being heroes in their own right. While the players are busy with other things, the goblins can start to do good around the area, until suddenly they notice that the townsfolk think rather highly of those goblins, and are starting to have a really poor opinion of the PCs.

Edit: even better thought on the slavers. Have them make some deals with the PCs to move part of their operation into town. Try to do it in such a way that the PCs don't even realize exactly what's going on or why they're getting the offer, but make it seem a little shady. But highly lucrative. They seem to be more interested in enriching and improving themselves than being good, so give them more opportunities to do evil. If you can get them to keep falling for them, they will eventually wake up one day to realize they have become villains.

[hymer]

I agree that luring the goblins in and then giving them a quarry to live in is not a nice move.
On the other hand, 150-400 Usually CN goblins with few prospects moving into a settlement is a recipe for unrest. If someone wants to work on it, it can turn into full scale disaster. The real mistake was making the promise in the first place, unless this world is sufficiently idealistic (or naïve if you prefer) in its narrative causality that the goblins will quickly become much better people and the humans and others will accept them.

My suggestion to the PCs would be to rely on Baggle once the goblins turn up. He must be pretty capable, and the goblins must have faith in him when they're willing to follow him over such a long distance (a faith that may well be shaken if they're going to be settled as quarry labourers on top of an evil temple).
Make a goblin-quarter of town, pay the petty cash it costs to build it. Make the goblins responsible for keeping the peace in that part of town. No apartheid, though, and they should go out of their way to get some goblins gainfully employed, to show that working with the humans (or whatever) can be good for your money and your selfworth. Make them get to know each other and get past the worst prejudices. Make sure they have the means to support themselves.
Set down rules straight away regarding things the rest of the populace won't put up with. Things like if they put newborns out to die, think stealing from someone outside the tribe is morally fine, or sacrifice beings that goes beyond what the other people can stomach.
Carrot and stick it from there. Realistically they PCs won't live to see real integation, but your world may be different, and these are probably the first steps that need to be taken to achieve it.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

While I was the first person to chime in with the PC's being jerkwads "big fat stupid heads" were my exact words, I think everyone is going a little far with the alignment/morality consequences.

From the Book of Exalted Deeds: Good is not nice, polite, well-mannered, prudish, self-righteous, or naive, though good-aligned characters might be some of those things.

Their acts have been dishonorable and racist/speciesist whatever.

Dishonorable is chaotic and bad, not evil.

Racism etc. is ignorant, boorish, rude and bad, not evil.

That said there are four logical options for what happens to the goblins now and I'm just going to toss out my DM/meta feelings about each.

1. Goblins walk away, do whatever- while entirely logical I don't think anyone's suggested this. Good reason for that, it's freaking boring.

2. Goblins go to mines and die horribly. While this could be very poignant I don't reccomend it if you don't think it will really make your players think. They've shown a lack of empathy for goblins so they may have hearts of ice when you describe the suffering and death in the goblin ghetto. On the other hand describing a little suffering to give the PC's one last chance to show empathy before one of the next options happens could be very good.

3. Goblins are turned evil. Fitting, like an abused child growing up to be an abuser. In many ways the goblins are like a child society and have the potential to grow up to be anything. One risk is the Player's seeing it as goblins acting on their nature and turning on them when they tried to help them as best as their other settlers allowed them to.

4. Goblins become more successful after many trials and tribulations. Funny and karmic runs the risk of being too fairy tale and possibly having few/no negative consequences for PC's. Oooo, unless they become WoW goblins and crush them with economy, again though this has the potential to get too silly if they build up too fast.

[bungo_underhill]

Have you read Snuff (http://www.amazon.com/Snuff-Novel-Discworld-Terry-Pratchett/dp/0062218867/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360685591&sr=8-1&keywords=snuff)?

[Slipperychicken]

First, demand the equal treatment they were promised, instead of being treated like prisoners.

If that fails, continue to seek out better places to settle, and spread the tale of the PCs and their wretched trap-village of lies and racism. Then the PCs don't get many new migrants after that, and are branded as racist liars.

[hymer]

@ Slipperychicken: As karmically just as that might be, people might actually be happier to settle in the PCs' settlements knowing that they turned away goblins. Doesn't sound like goblins get treated with much respect in the setting.

[jaynus006]

I really like the idea behind some goblins forming a splinter group and attacking the PCs town. The entire town would probably turn against the entire goblin community and demand justice but the PCs would be assures by Baggle that most of the goblins are not responsible and they have to root out the ones behind it all.

Of course this ignores that yeah the promise being made and dropped after their journey is pretty rough. I would not go so far as strip alignments, after all when was the last time you took a L or G characters alignment when he surprise kills a goblin inside a dungeon without seeing if he was a good guy. Also how lawful or good characters can see that if goblins being brought in to the village will cause what may be violent problems among the current residents at some point it might be the right choice. It's a crappy situation they have dig themselves into but surely there is a compromise that isn't "force labor at a potentially dangerous site"

[Conkea]

I always thought/expected that luring a whole bunch of goblins to a city, so they can settle there, then once they arrive you telling them no, you cant live here, you will be our slaves instead would be pretty much an evil act. Was I wrong?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I always thought/expected that luring a whole bunch of goblins to a city, so they can settle there, then once they arrive you telling them no, you cant live here, you will be our slaves instead would be pretty much an evil act. Was I wrong?

Slavery would be hyperbole in this situation.

The players didn't lure the goblins in with evil intent, they're breaking their word a not good, dishonorable, Chaotic act.

Offering someone a job as manual labor isn't slavery. For it to even be de feacto slavery they'd need to set up a system that kept the goblins down rather than just not letting them join the town proper. Charging them rent and inflated prices for food and making them pay the wages of the guards would make the situation true wage slavery/serfdom/indentured servitude.

Hyperbole aside, several people agree with you.

[Slipperychicken]

@ Slipperychicken: As karmically just as that might be, people might actually be happier to settle in the PCs' settlements knowing that they turned away goblins. Doesn't sound like goblins get treated with much respect in the setting.

Yeah, I could see racial supremacist groups (some militants in there too) moving in because they interpret the PC's actions as helping to purge the Green Menace and reclaim the land. Maybe several groups who claim the PCs as their own, and they have tensions in the town.

But going back on your word like that, to anyone, isn't going to do your credit score any favors. People are going to wonder what else the PCs were lying about, especially when they were selling their city on equality. Merchants are going to wonder if the PCs will go back on their loans too, raise interest rates, and generally not give the PCs as much slack.

[Grollub]

While I was the first person to chime in with the PC's being jerkwads "big fat stupid heads" were my exact words, I think everyone is going a little far with the alignment/morality consequences.

From the Book of Exalted Deeds: Good is not nice, polite, well-mannered, prudish, self-righteous, or naive, though good-aligned characters might be some of those things.

Their acts have been dishonorable and racist/speciesist whatever.

Dishonorable is chaotic and bad, not evil.

Racism etc. is ignorant, boorish, rude and bad, not evil.

That said there are four logical options for what happens to the goblins now and I'm just going to toss out my DM/meta feelings about each.

1. Goblins walk away, do whatever- while entirely logical I don't think anyone's suggested this. Good reason for that, it's freaking boring.

2. Goblins go to mines and die horribly. While this could be very poignant I don't reccomend it if you don't think it will really make your players think. They've shown a lack of empathy for goblins so they may have hearts of ice when you describe the suffering and death in the goblin ghetto. On the other hand describing a little suffering to give the PC's one last chance to show empathy before one of the next options happens could be very good.

3. Goblins are turned evil. Fitting, like an abused child growing up to be an abuser. In many ways the goblins are like a child society and have the potential to grow up to be anything. One risk is the Player's seeing it as goblins acting on their nature and turning on them when they tried to help them as best as their other settlers allowed them to.

4. Goblins become more successful after many trials and tribulations. Funny and karmic runs the risk of being too fairy tale and possibly having few/no negative consequences for PC's. Oooo, unless they become WoW goblins and crush them with economy, again though this has the potential to get too silly if they build up too fast.

I would go with Option 4 i think, with a variant of make the goblins "town" more successful then the PC's and people wanting to go there instead lol

[Ranting Fool]

Yay I'm not alone! :smallbiggrin:

Now I did warn the PC's about a lot of this and some of them just argued with me (Always a very foolish thing to do :smallbiggrin: )

Firstly the Keep belongs to the CG Duskblade, the LG Knight and LG Wizard never wanted to send the Goblins to the quarry or anything like that but then only agreed to help with negotiations because they didn't think the rest of the party would ever invite the Goblins to come live there.

Another suggestion has been made: Build the Goblins a strong wall area (but not a keep as they haven't the funds) near enough to the new town to lend support if they are attacked but far enough away so they aren't living with the general population.

Anyone have any idea how large an area would need to be walled off to house these Goblins?

A few more things I should have mentioned but didn't remember at the time:
Goblins are mostly descended from "Mage Breed" Goblins as the PC's call them, basically a lot of monsters were tinkered with by very powerful Wizards about 800 + years ago in the attempt to make more useful minions. Which is why you have lizard-men minotaurs running around as well as Titanic creatures and all sorts of other weirdness. Main point is these Goblins tend to be smarter and more likely to have class levels then your averaged Goblin.

Having Goblins move into the town might cause a lot of problems with the humans who live there/will be moving in as it's mostly a "Arrggg Goblin kill it quick before it robs us/eats our babies!"

I was planning on having All Goblin adventuring parties at some point if these tribes make it through :smallbiggrin: (But then I've just got a soft spot for non-evil Goblins, Being Murder-Hobos is fine :smallbiggrin:)

The intent to place guards over the quarry was to make the Goblins "Feel safe" despite me trying to explain that having a bunch of world saving dragon slayers within sight make them feel more save then a bunch of level 1 mercs.

There ARE evil Dragon worshiping Goblins, last time they went to the quarry they found a few who were digging around the old temple and ran off with something. At least 5 of them ride baby red dragons (hatch from somewhere or other, the PC's guess it might be the big epic plot hook I placed about a year ago in real time that they have endlessly ignored "Old mage research lab had a bunch of dragon eggs, of all types, maybe some heroes better go deal with that... oh and it happens to be on site of the last known place of the McGruff of world saving...") but I digress.

One such Evil Goblin Dragon Rider Xsorg (Pally of Evil + Timit PrC) was defeated by the Knight on a solo quest ages ago but surrendered and said "The DRAGON made me do it! I was being forced into riding it and then using it's power to bully the Goblin tribes" then was seen digging in the dragon temple under the quarry but got away (curse those slippery Goblins!) and then was seen AGAIN down there when someone else was poking around on a solo quest (they never really had the time/bothered to clear the whole place out) and slew his 2nd baby dragon but wasn't able to catch the fleeing Xsorg.

The PC's plan to fully clear out and make safe (Read: Kill anything and loot what ever is down there) the temple under the quarry before telling the Goblins to go live there.



Thanks everyone for the feedback :smallbiggrin:

[Scow2]

While I was the first person to chime in with the PC's being jerkwads "big fat stupid heads" were my exact words, I think everyone is going a little far with the alignment/morality consequences.

From the Book of Exalted Deeds: Good is not nice, polite, well-mannered, prudish, self-righteous, or naive, though good-aligned characters might be some of those things.

Their acts have been dishonorable and racist/speciesist whatever.

Dishonorable is chaotic and bad, not evil.

Racism etc. is ignorant, boorish, rude and bad, not evil.
How fitting. That book's compliment says the act that has been performed here is evil. They haven't acted dishonorable and racist - this is straight-up Betrayal on a VERY large scale.

For an event of this scale... I don't think its unreasonable for the PCs to have their asses haunted by the goblins that died in the false hope of a better future. And those that end up dying in the quarry can join the spectral host of hasslers.

[Slipperychicken]

So after total betrayal, now they're considering giving the Goblins an upgrade from prison to ghetto.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSUQmgQLZ1WnYvCh2dPVK6bUWl4c3ohf PssJvxoicvFLjWDR-SpqQ

I hope the Goblins have some kind of living accommodations...

[Tvtyrant]

If I was a goblin in this situation I would gather up a bunch of similarly outraged goblins from our ghetto and make a pact to revenge ourselves. We would do this by hiring a lycanthrope (whatever we can find but hopefully a wereboar or weretiger) and having it bite all of the pact members. When the next full moon is going to break out we would gather around in the town square silently, and let the whole town be obliterated in the attack.

Since each Goblin gains about 3 challenge ratings when converted, we can make a moderate leveled army in a day out of commoners. 100 CR 1 goblins are nothing, but 100 CR 4-6 weregoblins are a real threat.

Or simply gather around the parties residence and do it, but either way I would have my revenge.

[Grollub]

lol weregoblins!! sweet

[Slipperychicken]

If I was a goblin in this situation I would gather up a bunch of similarly outraged goblins from our ghetto and make a pact to revenge ourselves. We would do this by hiring a lycanthrope (whatever we can find but hopefully a wereboar or weretiger) and having it bite all of the pact members. When the next full moon is going to break out we would gather around in the town square silently, and let the whole town be obliterated in the attack.

Since each Goblin gains about 3 challenge ratings when converted, we can make a moderate leveled army in a day out of commoners. 100 CR 1 goblins are nothing, but 100 CR 4-6 weregoblins are a real threat.

Or simply gather around the parties residence and do it, but either way I would have my revenge.

I could see that happening if Baggle managed to get them all in on it. But that just seems kind of hypocritical. "Wow, you screwed us over because you think we're monsters? HA, NOW I'M A WEREWOLF WHO'S THE MONSTER NOW?!".

But otherwise, the worst would be riots and high levels of crime and xenophobia among Goblins, aided by their disillusionment with the local government. The PCs obviously aren't supporting their interests, seeing fit to screw them over like a cheap hooker on Friday night. So to them, when your government can't decide whether to massacre you or treat you as equals, the only source of safety is in community. Police would be treated like enemies, and Goblin gangs would most likely patrol the streets of their neighborhoods. If Baggle rolled really well on his Diplomacy checks, he might be able to convince them to do protest peacefully, but that wouldn't last long before the PCs do something phenomenally stupid and rouse them to violence.

[lsfreak]

Anyone have any idea how large an area would need to be walled off to house these Goblins?

Very roughly 150 people per hectare (100 meters x 100 meters) in medieval cities, however this is going to be fairly packed - it's a city. A really big city might have 300 people in the same area, but since this is on the scale of a village, it would probably be better not to pack them in stories of tiny houses but give them room to spread out a bit more.

Something the PC's might not have thought about is food; unless they're supplying it through magic, it takes about 1 square mile of farmland to feed 180 people. That means while 400 goblins may only *need* a 175x175 meter area to live in, they'll need two and a half square miles of supporting land with decent protection from raids, monsters, and whatever. Of course magic can eliminate some or potentially all of this.

Also, about the goblin's journey. Again assuming the full 400 goblins. It takes 600 grams of wheat to provide 2000 calories; now, goblins are smaller than humans, but smaller animals also have higher metabolisms. I'm assuming size and metabolism will cancel out so that a 2000-calorie diet is needed as well. However, these guys are walking 8 hours a day - I get very, very roughly that that'd be burning around 3000 just there.

Now, still going to a mere 2000-calorie diet and 600 grams of wheat, that means those goblins will need somewhere around 8400kg of wheat for their journey. It should be pretty obvious that of the little material wealth they had, it would have been sold for food for this journey. Any meat animals they have would have been slaughtered to make up for what they couldn't afford, and possibly pet dogs and the like as well. They'd go hunting daily in an attempt to get more food; as an example, if they had no food but deer, they'd need to kill very (very) roughly 450kg of meat to provide a 2000 calorie diet, which comes out to around ten large bucks - every single day (and that's assuming they're eating the blood and some of the organs most in the modern West wouldn't want to touch).

My point in all this is to drive home that this is an extremely taxing journey on these goblins, since they - from your description - had no preparations (nor any real money for preparations anyways). To reach the end and find out your not welcome will very likely break their spirits. Some will be overcome with despair and take up any offer given, some will turn to rage and begin raiding for sustenance, others will simply split off and go their own way because clearly Baggle's leadership has sucked hard. Now, a separate village close but apart from the "normal people" one is much less likely to get this response than the option to do hard labor, but it's still going to alienate them to some extent and leave them disliking the "real" city.

[Guizonde]

say, why the quarry?

call me odd, but i find the idea of goblin butcher-hunter-trapper-feeders really cool: get your fresh cuts from mcgobbo's! tastiest meat this side of my thigh!
hell, they've got so much experience getting scragged in droves that they must've picked up some knowhow on how to capture animals!

mutually beneficial agreement: goblins feed the town, the town keeps the goblins safe :smallsmile:

[Hand_of_Vecna]

How fitting. That book's compliment says the act that has been performed here is evil. They haven't acted dishonorable and racist - this is straight-up Betrayal on a VERY large scale.

Betrayal is a very strong word, it's usually reserved for a literal knife in the back and mid battle side changes especially when it's having capitol E evil attached to it.

Oxford's definition is very undescriptive so I'll examine dictionary.com's definitions.

1. to deliver or expose to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty: Benedict Arnold betrayed his country.

Doesn't fit this situation. I'd guess this is the definition intended to have the E tag.

2. to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling: to betray a trust.

Possibly fitting, but we really need to examine degrees. The PC's did fail to fullfill an agreement. This really can't be the intended definition without qualification because then any failure to fulfill a contact would be evil which would pretty much put us on a single alignment scale. We really need to look at the degree of harm done by a dishonorable act to decide if it's evil and some of the PC's are trying to minimize that damage. Slaughtering or actually enslaving them when they arrived would clearly be capital B betrayal and capital E evil.

3. to disappoint the hopes or expectations of; be disloyal to: to betray one's friends.

They certainly did this, but this definition pretty clearly describes a chaotic act of disloyalty and "disappointing hopes and expectations" is weak language that doesn't really describe any kind of morality.

The next two definitions are even more clearly not intended, but I'll include them for completeness.

4. to reveal or disclose in violation of confidence: to betray a secret.

5. to reveal unconsciously (something one would preferably conceal): Her nervousness betrays her insecurity.


2000-calorie diet and 600 grams of wheat

I'd have a few issues with your calculations from a sciencey nutritiony standpoint, but by RAW rations from small creatures weigh one quarter of what rations for medium creatures do. This is one of the reasons that in a simulationist environment small humanoids would rule the world. They can do about 60% of the manual labor of a medium (a rough estimate based on 3/4 carrying capacity and -2 strength) or 100% of the work with profession or craft but only take up 1/2 the space and 1/4 of the food.

I'm not disagreeing with your basic premise that the trip would be a trial just not as bad as your math indicates.

[Yajirobe]

I can't stop thinking that this Dragon God would like to "help" those goblins and protect them when others just shunned and antagonized them. Not a full grop conversion, but I'd say that it would become a festering "wound" on this community all but impossible to heal.


A read that I would suggest for how the goblins would feel is the Wraith: The Oblivion book Charnel Houses of Europe: The Shoah (DISCLAIMER: Not a light reading even by WoD Wraith standards. At All). It goes about the Holocaust Dead on the Shadowlands. WWII aside, the part that would be interesting is the way the game puts the "problem" after the dead arrive on the Shadowlands. An expelled group, saw as filth, when received the "sweet release" that death should bring, were thrown in a bureaucratic hell, stuffing the souls in ghettoes and not acknowledging the problem until some higher players forced an intervention (at the time, it was too late to heal the wounds). We have then some kind of ethnic enclaves with some serious grudge, anger and rancor to the other parts of the Empire.

We have some "universally hated" group (like your 'kill them before they eat our babies' thing shows) that had denied what was due after a "long trip". Like some other guy said: a trek of miles, full of sacrifice and suffering for, in the end, they become some kind of second-class citizens in a ghetto is a recipe for hate and anger. If I was an evil cleric, I'd have a field day forming a "flock".

[Ranting Fool]

Thanks everyone for your input :smallbiggrin: I no longer feel as I was being unreasonable when suggesting that the Goblins wouldn't be too happy with the PC's.

I have a few ideas but will have to wait till tomorrow to see what the PC's end up doing (one has read parts of this thread)

[hymer]

Be sure to fill us in on how it went. :smallsmile:

[Zanthy1]

Be sure to fill us in on how it went. :smallsmile:

I second this

[Bonzai]

Heh, I would give the players some rope to hang themselves. Let them send the goblins to the quarry. The Goblins will be naturally bitter, but they will adapt, and make their warrens into the rock, and possibly into the old temple it's self.

Perhaps they even find an artifact in those tunnels, and keep it a secret. Then disaster strikes the villiage. Bandits? A Dragon attack? Something brutal that will decimate the villiage. The Goblins will simply seal themselves in their tunnels, and be completely unscathed. Whats left of the towns people can find out how sympathetc the Goblins are to their plight.

[Ranting Fool]

Well the Goblins turned up and things went along peacefully.... for now :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

700+ (At least 12 different bullied tribes bound together by misfortune) Beleaguered Goblins turn up and start "setting up camp" well arguing over who gets which spot of dirt.

Heroes teleport back to where the castle is being built after getting a quick sending from the chief follower who had a Sending Stone. And after a quick chat with Baggle and greeting all the Goblins the heroes end up welcoming them into the new town. :smallsmile: And even manage to negotiate some of the Goblins to help build things as well as gather food for the settlement.

A few not so subtle hints about how the Goblins might want to go live somewhere else were promptly ignored as living next to the big Dragon slayers was a major part of the appeal of the place.

Baggle having led "his people" to safety wanted to go off adventuring but was convinced to stay around and oversee things for awhile. Who agreed as long as they would get someone to teach him about architecture and making brick houses (he read about it in a book and thought it was a good idea, if you're going to live above ground having a fire resistant house is useful) the Players go off and finish off escorting the freed slaves of a cult of Hextor to safety taking about two weeks. The humans started getting a bit worried when Baggle started smiting good weapons for the Goblins.

But now the Duskblade (whose castle it is) is having second thoughts... Comments such as "We'll just ask them to move their camp a few hundred feet away, outside the main walls (which haven't even started being built yet)" and "Well we could always just raise taxes so high that the Goblins won't WANT to live there, no no not for the Humans" Now to be fair he was grinning when he said the second after I pointed out that he had seen the Goblins laying down the foundations of buildings (And digging large basements) and I think the aim was to wind me up but we shall see.

[hymer]

Thanks for the update! Sounds like you've got plenty of potential for development there.

[Gnome Alone]

The land pirates decided
To build themselves a town
'Twould be even better
Than the ones they had burned down

They invited goblins and their champ
Hundreds of miles did they tramp
At the last minute the PCs said
"Well, nix the concentration camp"

[Grollub]

Maybe the players came here and saw all the suggestions people had to have the goblins revolt/ screw them over.. haha :smallcool:

Hopefully the goblins will be FIRMLY entrenched and a permanent part of their town. I know if I was a PC I would welcome them to my "part of the groups" town :smallbiggrin:

[JusticeZero]

So they've announced that when the Goblins turn up they will just tell them they have to go live in the stone quarry two days ride away and work for the PC's and they'll post some guards to protect them in case some other heroes come along and slay them all.

Yeah, in our world when governments do this it gets described in history books for decades using words like "atrocity" and "genocide". For example, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears) seems somewhat analogous.