E6 Planar Binding

[Crake]

Hey guys, I'm DMing a new survival horror E6 game (speaking of which, if any of my players are in this thread, leave NOOWWWWW) and I was wondering if this method of casting lesser planar binding was legit.

Basically it's a grey elf wizard, 17 base int start, with +1 at level 4 and the +2 feat chain, giving him a total of 22, +6 modifier. Then he gets versatile spellcaster.

This should give him:
4 cantrips
5 1st level spells
5 2nd level spells
3 3rd level spells

Now, this next bit is what I'm unsure of. Can he used versatile spellcaster to essentially convert the 4 cantrips into a second level spell (4 into 2 1st, into 1 2nd)? If so, that would, converting upwards as much as possible leave him with 1 1st level spell, 1 3rd level spell, 1 4th level and 1 5th level, which is perfect to cast magic circle, lesser planar binding and dimensional anchor.

What I want to know is if this is legit by RAW, if not I can always fiat whatever I want I suppose, but I'd prefer to keep that minimal if possible.

[Psyren]

1) How is he learning 4th and 5th-level spells in E6? You can only use Versatile Spellcaster to cast a spell you know.

2) VS lets you cast a higher level spell, but doesn't actually give you any higher-level slots. So you can't VS up to (X+1) then turn around and use (X+1) to reach (X+2).

[Fable Wright]

Hey guys, I'm DMing a new survival horror E6 game (speaking of which, if any of my players are in this thread, leave NOOWWWWW) and I was wondering if this method of casting lesser planar binding was legit.

Basically it's a grey elf wizard, 17 base int start, with +1 at level 4 and the +2 feat chain, giving him a total of 22, +6 modifier. Then he gets versatile spellcaster.

This should give him:
4 cantrips
5 1st level spells
5 2nd level spells
3 3rd level spells

Now, this next bit is what I'm unsure of. Can he used versatile spellcaster to essentially convert the 4 cantrips into a second level spell (4 into 2 1st, into 1 2nd)? If so, that would, converting upwards as much as possible leave him with 1 1st level spell, 1 3rd level spell, 1 4th level and 1 5th level, which is perfect to cast magic circle, lesser planar binding and dimensional anchor.

What I want to know is if this is legit by RAW, if not I can always fiat whatever I want I suppose, but I'd prefer to keep that minimal if possible.

No. Versatile Spellcaster allows you to cast the spell at the cost of two lower level slots, but doesn't grant higher level slots. It's only good for one level increases. You could get 4th level spells, but I'd advise disallowing Versatile Spellcaster on the Wizard class. Spontaneous casting out of a spellbook makes the wizard always have exactly the tool for the job at all times, making them even more ridiculously powerful than usual.

[avr]

Dimensional anchor and Lesser planar binding sound like perfect spells to be converted into incantations. This would also allow your players more opportunity to burst in and disrupt the rituals before they reach completion.

[Crake]

1) How is he learning 4th and 5th-level spells in E6? You can only use Versatile Spellcaster to cast a spell you know.

2) VS lets you cast a higher level spell, but doesn't actually give you any higher-level slots. So you can't VS up to (X+1) then turn around and use (X+1) to reach (X+2).

I was thinking either a huge amount of time dedicated to spell research or finding a long lost scrolls in some ancient ruins.


No. Versatile Spellcaster allows you to cast the spell at the cost of two lower level slots, but doesn't grant higher level slots. It's only good for one level increases. You could get 4th level spells, but I'd advise disallowing Versatile Spellcaster on the Wizard class. Spontaneous casting out of a spellbook makes the wizard always have exactly the tool for the job at all times, making them even more ridiculously powerful than usual.

I would have ruled it as needing to prepare spells in advance, not being able to cast spontaneously.

Also, I probably should have made it clear that this was for an NPC, not one of my players.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Spellhoarding Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, Martial Wizard (Conjurer) 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Mindbender 1, using the Draconic Rite of Passage for Charm Person, with Enchantment and Evocation prohibited. Get Collegiate Wizard via a flaw, and get Abrupt Jaunt and Mindsight of course.

That character is 6th level and casts spells as a 9th level Wizard. He automatically knows eight 2nd, eight 3rd, eight 4th, and four 5th level spells. They're scribed onto his scales instead of in a book so he can never lose them (referred to as a spellhoard). He can copy the same spell onto his scales multiple times to fuel other abilities (same cost as scribing it into a book, unlimited space). He can sacrifice a spell copy from his spellhoard to cast it as though from a scroll, or to substitute costly material/xp components of spells.

I'd get Wall of Stone, Teleport, Transmute Rock to Mud, and of course Lesser Planar Binding. Consider switching one of those for Dismissal just in case. 4th level spells should include Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Greater Invisibility, Heart of Earth, Black Tentacles, Enervation, Ray Deflection, and some sort of divination spells.

[Grinner]

Spellhoarding Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, Martial Wizard (Conjurer) 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Mindbender 1, using the Draconic Rite of Passage for Charm Person, with Enchantment and Evocation prohibited. Get Collegiate Wizard via a flaw, and get Abrupt Jaunt and Mindsight of course.

Now say that five times fast. :smalltongue:

[Crake]

Spellhoarding Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, Martial Wizard (Conjurer) 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Mindbender 1, using the Draconic Rite of Passage for Charm Person, with Enchantment and Evocation prohibited. Get Collegiate Wizard via a flaw, and get Abrupt Jaunt and Mindsight of course.

That character is 6th level and casts spells as a 9th level Wizard. He automatically knows eight 2nd, eight 3rd, eight 4th, and four 5th level spells. They're scribed onto his scales instead of in a book so he can never lose them (referred to as a spellhoard). He can copy the same spell onto his scales multiple times to fuel other abilities (same cost as scribing it into a book, unlimited space). He can sacrifice a spell copy from his spellhoard to cast it as though from a scroll, or to substitute costly material/xp components of spells.

I'd get Wall of Stone, Teleport, Transmute Rock to Mud, and of course Lesser Planar Binding. Consider switching one of those for Dismissal just in case. 4th level spells should include Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Greater Invisibility, Heart of Earth, Black Tentacles, Enervation, Ray Deflection, and some sort of divination spells.

While I appreciate the sentiment, this isn't really about trying to optimise for an E6 campaign. If I want someone who's capable of casting as a 9th level caster, I'll just introduce a 9th level caster. I was more looking at having a wizard consume pretty much his entire day's worth of casting in the attempt to cast a higher level spell.

That said, I'll probably work it as an incantation that consumes some, or possibly none of his spells. Not that it really matters, the idea is it's gonna go horribly wrong and unleash some horror in the local area, haven't quite decided what yet.

[Psyren]

*reflexively bans kobolds without reading Biffo's post.*


I was thinking either a huge amount of time dedicated to spell research or finding a long lost scrolls in some ancient ruins.

In either case, Incantations (as stated above) are a better way to allow access to that sort of power.

Though I would allow dimensional anchor, or perhaps a weaker version (rounds/lvl?) to be learnable as a spell. It's very useful.

[Crake]

*reflexively bans kobolds without reading Biffo's post.*

In either case, Incantations (as stated above) are a better way to allow access to that sort of power.

Though I would allow dimensional anchor, or perhaps a weaker version (rounds/lvl?) to be learnable as a spell. It's very useful.

It's a very very low magic world, so having a dimensional anchor spell would actually be a little pointless, I cant really think of much off the top of my head that would be made easier with it. On top of that, I can't think which character I would give access to it, I have a beguiler, a duskblade and a CV ninja with craft poisonmaking.

That said, if I came across something that needed to be anchored, I could instead make some kind of magic sword for the duskblade or shuriken for the ninja to keep the target anchored for a bit.

[MukkTB]

In E6 players dont have acess to spells beyond level 3. It would be like trying to cast a 10th level spell using core rules. No such thing exists.

[Alleran]

Spellhoarding Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, Martial Wizard (Conjurer) 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Mindbender 1, using the Draconic Rite of Passage for Charm Person, with Enchantment and Evocation prohibited. Get Collegiate Wizard via a flaw, and get Abrupt Jaunt and Mindsight of course.

That character is 6th level and casts spells as a 9th level Wizard. He automatically knows eight 2nd, eight 3rd, eight 4th, and four 5th level spells. They're scribed onto his scales instead of in a book so he can never lose them (referred to as a spellhoard). He can copy the same spell onto his scales multiple times to fuel other abilities (same cost as scribing it into a book, unlimited space). He can sacrifice a spell copy from his spellhoard to cast it as though from a scroll, or to substitute costly material/xp components of spells.

I'd get Wall of Stone, Teleport, Transmute Rock to Mud, and of course Lesser Planar Binding. Consider switching one of those for Dismissal just in case. 4th level spells should include Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Greater Invisibility, Heart of Earth, Black Tentacles, Enervation, Ray Deflection, and some sort of divination spells.
Note to self: kobolds are now banned in any E6 game I will ever run.

[Crake]

Note to self: kobolds are now banned in any E6 game I will ever run.

To be fair, there's a bunch wrong with that build anyway (spellhoarding only converts innate spellcasting to wizard, not class based spellcasting, kobolds definitely are not true dragons, greater draconic rite doesnt work if you're a wizard), I've always liked kobolds, they're great fun to roleplay so don't let people's erroneous cheese put you off them.

[Fable Wright]

Note to self: kobolds are now banned in any E6 game I will ever run.

By themselves they're not bad. All you have to do is uphold the ruling that they aren't true dragons, decide that they do suffer penalties for aging, and the shenanigans stop.

As for NPCs with Planar Binding:

Have the Wizard pair up with a partner, a Dread Necromancer who has 2 4th level Memento Magica items and had Versatile Spellcaster. The Memento Magicas can be relics from another age, artifacts of untold power from the gods, or whatever; it doesn't matter. Have the Dread Necromancer use Versatile Spellcaster to cast 2 4th level spells (probably Animate Dead twice) and then 'reclaim' them with the Memento Magica. He now has 2 4th level spell slots, and with them, he can Versatile Spellcaster up a Lesser Planar Binding. The Wizard can handle the Dimensional Anchor and the Magic Circle.

This way of handling it has some ritual elements to it; they'll need corpses and onyx, a calling diagram, and two artifacts of enormous power that they need to steal before they can try opening the gate, and it can only be done at night. Of course, the Necromancer could just cast Enervation on a random rabbit or a kidnapped villager and a Black Tentacles to grab the slots, but he would probably try to fool the Wizard into thinking he needed the corpses of powerful creatures to perform the Binding (high Charisma score and all), getting some help with his dirty work.

[Crake]

By themselves they're not bad. All you have to do is uphold the ruling that they aren't true dragons, decide that they do suffer penalties for aging, and the shenanigans stop.

As for NPCs with Planar Binding:

Have the Wizard pair up with a partner, a Dread Necromancer who has 2 4th level Memento Magica items and had Versatile Spellcaster. The Memento Magicas can be relics from another age, artifacts of untold power from the gods, or whatever; it doesn't matter. Have the Dread Necromancer use Versatile Spellcaster to cast 2 4th level spells (probably Animate Dead twice) and then 'reclaim' them with the Memento Magica. He now has 2 4th level spell slots, and with them, he can Versatile Spellcaster up a Lesser Planar Binding. The Wizard can handle the Dimensional Anchor and the Magic Circle.

This way of handling it has some ritual elements to it; they'll need corpses and onyx, a calling diagram, and two artifacts of enormous power that they need to steal before they can try opening the gate, and it can only be done at night. Of course, the Necromancer could just cast Enervation on a random rabbit or a kidnapped villager and a Black Tentacles to grab the slots, but he would probably try to fool the Wizard into thinking he needed the corpses of powerful creatures to perform the Binding (high Charisma score and all), getting some help with his dirty work.

Hmm, this one actually sounds like a good idea. Where do I find the rules on Memento Magica?

[Yora]

*reflexively bans kobolds without reading Biffo's post.*



In either case, Incantations (as stated above) are a better way to allow access to that sort of power.

Though I would allow dimensional anchor, or perhaps a weaker version (rounds/lvl?) to be learnable as a spell. It's very useful.
Once you get your head around how Incantations work, converting spells to incantations is actually very easy.
There is the often cited point that they make access to high level effects too easy, but the same is true for buying spell scrolls. By giving the players only the incantation to call a specific creature or type of creature, there is a lot more control over what they will do with it. And when in doubt, you can always include a rare material component that simply can't be bought in a normal store, so you again have complete control over when you make the incantation available by allowing them to find the material component.

One quick and dirty version I've made here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14698843&postcount=5).
If it is only for an NPC and never intended to be used by the PCs, then you don't even need to stat up the incantation and just don't let the players find the source with the instructions how to perform the ritual. He simply could have learned it from a demon or something, and made to remember all the details without writing them down.

[Fable Wright]

Hmm, this one actually sounds like a good idea. Where do I find the rules on Memento Magica?

Dragon Magic p. 124. Technically, it can only return an expended spell slot, and Versatile Spellcaster just lets you use two spell slots to cast a higher level spell. However, if you rule that it creates a 'ghost' slot, it would work properly.

Of course, there's another possibility, but that basically just convolutes the process. Add in 2 4th level Pearls of Power and the Arcane Preparation feat on the Dread Necromancer. Following your ruling on preparing spells with Versatile Spellcaster, they prepare 2 Animate Dead spells. When they do, though, those are prepared spells, and not open spell slots. When those spells are cast, use the Memento Magica to regain Spell Slots in their place, which you can use to Versatile Spellcaster up to a 5th level slot.

Alternatively, I'm just complicating things, and you can just use Arcane Preparation on the Dread Necromancer. Prepare the Versatile Spellcaster Animate Deads as spell slots, as you've describe it works, and then expend both those spell slots (if you rule that prepared spells are spell slots) to spontaneously cast LPB.

To sum it up, it all depends on how much ritual you want and how many McGuffins you want to give your players a chance to drum up. Or if you want the Necromancer to claim that he needs all of these relics to properly use Planar Binding, when really, all they give him is 4 more 4th level spell slots. Or, if you really want to twist your players heads, allow the Dread Necromancer to use Arcane Preparation + Versatile Spellcaster, but he's still questing for the Mementos.

The players think that he needs them for the Lesser Planar Binding, but in reality, he can already do that. He needs them to reclaim 4th level spell slots, with which he prepares a 5th level Lesser Planar Binding. Then he does nothing with it. The next day, when he rests and recovers all of his spells, he repeats the process, now possessing 2 5th level spell slots (old prepared slots don't need to be expended when preparing new ones). He can now cast Regular Planar Binding. And that would really be horrifying in an E6 setting. Rather than binding CR 6 or 7 creatures, he's binding veritable Demon Lords in E6. Bebiliths. Glaberazu. Multiple Vrocks for a Dance of Ruin. CR 9-13 Demons, without twisting the RAW too much.

Of course, he's weak while in the middle of the ritual. Over the two days, he's casting 2 4th level spell slots, most likely Animate Dead to create guardians to protect him while he rests. He can't cast a 5th level spell slot without blowing the ritual, and he's out of 3rd level spell slots. He has to rest 8 hours without distraction between the times he creates undead guardians, and disruptions would delay the ritual. Of course, he's going to have a large number of undead guards and LPB Demons on hand to protect him, but he can't just Cloudkill the party or use Magic Jar until a TPK happens. It will be a bloody race against time, fending off undead and hard to kill demons while they try to get at the summoner, where they have to face a 6th level Wizard and the equivalent of a 6th level Dread Necromancer, even without his high level spells that would normally kill the party flat-out. Oh, and if they fail, a Demon Lord is bound to the Necromancer's will. No pressure. (Okay, it's only a Glaberazu, but it's the same thing in E6. Wishes for mortals that cause suffering, near immunity to magic with SR 21, insane melee toughness with DR 10/good, the ability to kill people with a glance in amusing ways with Nail to the Sky, drive mortals mad with Confusion, and armies of demons (4d10 dretches, 50% chance) are at their beck and call. I mean, come on.)

[Crake]

Dragon Magic p. 124. Technically, it can only return an expended spell slot, and Versatile Spellcaster just lets you use two spell slots to cast a higher level spell. However, if you rule that it creates a 'ghost' slot, it would work properly.

Of course, there's another possibility, but that basically just convolutes the process. Add in 2 4th level Pearls of Power and the Arcane Preparation feat on the Dread Necromancer. Following your ruling on preparing spells with Versatile Spellcaster, they prepare 2 Animate Dead spells. When they do, though, those are prepared spells, and not open spell slots. When those spells are cast, use the Memento Magica to regain Spell Slots in their place, which you can use to Versatile Spellcaster up to a 5th level slot.

Alternatively, I'm just complicating things, and you can just use Arcane Preparation on the Dread Necromancer. Prepare the Versatile Spellcaster Animate Deads as spell slots, as you've describe it works, and then expend both those spell slots (if you rule that prepared spells are spell slots) to spontaneously cast LPB.

To sum it up, it all depends on how much ritual you want and how many McGuffins you want to give your players a chance to drum up. Or if you want the Necromancer to claim that he needs all of these relics to properly use Planar Binding, when really, all they give him is 4 more 4th level spell slots. Or, if you really want to twist your players heads, allow the Dread Necromancer to use Arcane Preparation + Versatile Spellcaster, but he's still questing for the Mementos.

The players think that he needs them for the Lesser Planar Binding, but in reality, he can already do that. He needs them to reclaim 4th level spell slots, with which he prepares a 5th level Lesser Planar Binding. Then he does nothing with it. The next day, when he rests and recovers all of his spells, he repeats the process, now possessing 2 5th level spell slots (old prepared slots don't need to be expended when preparing new ones). He can now cast Regular Planar Binding. And that would really be horrifying in an E6 setting. Rather than binding CR 6 or 7 creatures, he's binding veritable Demon Lords in E6. Bebiliths. Glaberazu. Multiple Vrocks for a Dance of Ruin. CR 9-13 Demons, without twisting the RAW too much.

Of course, he's weak while in the middle of the ritual. Over the two days, he's casting 2 4th level spell slots, most likely Animate Dead to create guardians to protect him while he rests. He can't cast a 5th level spell slot without blowing the ritual, and he's out of 3rd level spell slots. He has to rest 8 hours without distraction between the times he creates undead guardians, and disruptions would delay the ritual. Of course, he's going to have a large number of undead guards and LPB Demons on hand to protect him, but he can't just Cloudkill the party or use Magic Jar until a TPK happens. It will be a bloody race against time, fending off undead and hard to kill demons while they try to get at the summoner, where they have to face a 6th level Wizard and the equivalent of a 6th level Dread Necromancer, even without his high level spells that would normally kill the party flat-out. Oh, and if they fail, a Demon Lord is bound to the Necromancer's will. No pressure. (Okay, it's only a Glaberazu, but it's the same thing in E6. Wishes for mortals that cause suffering, near immunity to magic with SR 21, insane melee toughness with DR 10/good, the ability to kill people with a glance in amusing ways with Nail to the Sky, drive mortals mad with Confusion, and armies of demons (4d10 dretches, 50% chance) are at their beck and call. I mean, come on.)

That is of course what the players think, but what I'm planning on having happen is the demon break loose and start his own base of operations. The setting I'm running has an absense of gods, and theres a huge war between fiends and angels happening right now (which the material plane is unaware of) so all fiends have essentially been "drafted" into the war, so getting the the material plane is actually quite hard. Getting called doesn't happen often due to E6, so this would be a jackpot for the demon.