Awesome Flurry / 14+ attacks [3.5]

[Siltharon]

More effective than the King of Smack?
Okay so I was thinking how to get a monklike char with a ****load of attacks without using additional actions. I came up with a combination of Tashalatora-monk, rapidstrike and twf. Also the charakter is entirely wisdom based through Intuitive Attack and No thought from Shiba Protector.

needed: 2 flaws allowed, OA allowed, SS allowed


used books: PHB, OA, SS, ECS, ECS-Secrets of Sarlona, BoED, Drac, XPH, CP, Minds eye expanded classes part 1, DM

build
lawful good Elan Monk 1/ Psywar 12/ Shiba Protector 1/ Slayer 6
Str [14]10 Dex [19]23(+6item, +2tome) Con 14 Int 14 Wis 32(+5lvl, +5tome, +6item) Ch 6 (32 pb)
[with expansion]

1 Monk Monastic Training (Psywar), TWF, Combat Expertise (Flaw 1), Track (Flaw 2)
2 Psywar Psicrystal Affinity
3 Psywar ACF Mantled Warrior (Freedom mantle), Intuitive Attack
4 Psywar
5 Psywar
6 Psywar Tashalatora, Practised Manifester (Psywar)
7 Psywar
8 Shiba Protector
9 Psywar Expanded Knowledge (Share Pain)
10 Psywar Improved TWF
11 Psywar
12 Psywar Snap Kick
13 Slayer
14 Slayer
15 Slayer Rapidstrike
16 Slayer
17 Slayer
18 Slayer impr. Rapidstrike
19 Psywar Greater TWF
20 Psywar

special: get Iron Will through Otyugh Hole before Level 8, you get Alertness from Psicrystal and together with Combat Expertise that qualifies you for Shiba Protector

epic-feats:Perfect TWF (or whatever the name is)

items: +6 dex item, +6 wis item, +5 wis tome, +2 dex tome, +5 necklace of natural weapons, monks belt, Torc of Power Preservation, Fanged Ring [just the gear relevant here .... build can obviously be boosted further -> add custom items +6 for con and probably str if you can spare the money, more tomes etc]

suggested powers (don't forget you got 203 pp)
1 Dimension Hop, Inertial Armor, Vigor, Expansion, Bite of the Wolf,
2 Damp Power, Hustle, Power Weapon, Detect Hostile intent (you got low Initiative don't forget that), [Share Pain]
3 Claws of the Vampire, Empathic Transfer,hostile (SRD version)
4 Energy Adaption, Steadfast Perception, Fly
5 - no good enough powers here (better take Precognition, Defensive or so)
6 Dispelling Buffer and Mind Blank (personal)

Ok so the dmg is (assuming Expansion to huge, Fanged Ring, Bite of the Wolf): Mainhand:6d8+11+5+2 = 45/ Snap Kick and Offhand: 6w8+11+5+1 = 44/ Bite of the Wolf: 12w8+11+5+1 = 71

we end with a bab of 16(+wisx2+5)-2(size):
+41/+36/+31/+26
add TWF, Snap Kick and Greater Flurry of Blows
+37(SK)/+37/+37/+37/+37/+32/+32/+27/+27/+22
add Rapidstrike, Improved Rapidstrike, Bite of the Wolf
+37(SK)/+37/+37/+37/+37/+32(BotW)/+32/+32/+32/+27/+27/+27/+27/+27/+22
15 attacks

Fulldmg: 10x45x1,05+4x44x1,05+1x71x1,05=731,85 average dmg
with 53,67% chance to have at least 1 crit (-1 con with Fanged Ring)
Lifesteal: 6w8x14x1,05/2+12w8x1,05/2: 226,8 average Healing

That is before adding Haste or Belt of Battle for another Fullroundaction

Ac is also pretty high (not over the top but pretty high) with 10+4(dex)+11(wis)+3(monk)+Intertial Armor (with torc +14)-2size= 40 without using natural, insight, shield or deflection

Saves without further boosts: Wil +24 Ref +12 Fort +16 (Elan can give +4 to critical saves)

Classfeatures: Ac of Monk Level 18, Unarmed Dmg Level 18, Greater Flurry, Evasion(could be changed for ACF), Mantled Warrior (+10ft mm), Favored enemy (Illithid) +4, illithid sense, Brain nausea, Lucid buffer, Cerebral blind

Well after going through some math I wanted to compare the build to the King of Natural Weaponfighting (at least for Psywars) ... The King of Smack: better selfhealing, more dmg, higher ac, more pp, more gear dependant(scales better with gear though), Possibly higher saves (depends on gear of both but in general I'd say the Flurry has higher), Lacking Mind Blank from Slayer (making up for it with the power though), no Aoo boni compared to the King of Smack (only real drawback here)

The build could actually outplay the King of Smack
Hope you enjoy it anyways :D

edit: put build in spoiler, changed feats (gets Alertness through Psicrystal and Iron Will through Otyugh Hole), removed the suggestion for boni (true that it is fairly easy to attain Iron Will and Alertness), removed the Tashalatora houserule (want to use no houserules to show the build actually works)
edit:updated power selection (added Bite of the Wolf) and dmg

[andromax]

Couple things.. you can buy Iron Will for 3k via the Otyugh Hole in Complete Scoundrel if that helps your feats. Secondly "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed," according to the Player's Handbook so TWF doesn't stack with Flurry of Blows if you're using unarmed strikes. Thirdly, you should generally not count on any DM to allow easy entry to Shiba protector. There are easier ways to get in(buy Iron Will, Alertness etc), but it's a very powerful 1 level dip and it's entry requirements shouldn't be tossed aside so haphazardly.

[Siltharon]

Couple things.. you can buy Iron Will for 3k via the Otyugh Hole in Complete Scoundrel if that helps your feats. Secondly "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed," according to the Player's Handbook so TWF doesn't stack with Flurry of Blows if you're using unarmed strikes. Thirdly, you should generally not count on any DM to allow easy entry to Shiba protector. There are easier ways to get in(buy Iron Will, Alertness etc), but it's a very powerful 1 level dip and it's entry requirements shouldn't be tossed aside so haphazardly.

oh thanks for the suggestion ... haven't thought about the hole
for the other points: TWF on unarmed attacks is a commonly accepted rule. I'm totally aware that this build doesn't work by RAW and without dm allowance (as everything), but using it will hardly make you too strong (you still won't be higher then t3) so a reasonable dm should allow it if it doesn't interfere with his campaign. After all it's more a build for fun. Sure you can dish out quite a lot of dmg but you won't come close to some other melee builds out there (including the King of Smack).

[JaronK]

Note that the FAQ explicitly allows for TWF with Flurried Unarmed Strikes, indicating that the line about Unarmed Strikes not being offhanded is just telling you that flurry attacks don't have 1/2 Str to damage just for using Flurry.

JaronK

[Mr Adventurer]

Note that the FAQ explicitly allows for TWF with Flurried Unarmed Strikes, indicating that the line about Unarmed Strikes not being offhanded is just telling you that flurry attacks don't have 1/2 Str to damage just for using Flurry.

JaronK

Or that TWF on-hand attacks are unarmed strikes while TWF off-hand attacks must be made with a weapon?

[GenericMook]

I see that you're taking Iron Will twice. I'm not sure if that's legal, so I'm just gonna point it out.

I'm no expert on Tashalatora shenanigans, but isn't it true that you can take it without a single level in Monk or something?

[Siltharon]

I see that you're taking Iron Will twice. I'm not sure if that's legal, so I'm just gonna point it out.

I'm no expert on Tashalatora shenanigans, but isn't it true that you can take it without a single level in Monk or something?

Oh thanks ... fixed that. The one at first Level was meant to be Alertness.

Yes it is true, but the Problem is I wouldn't get sufficient feats without the 2 monk levels. Ofc the build is changeable and you could get iron will through the hole, take Tashalatora at Level 6 and go Psywar from Level 2 upwards .... the build is just a basic concept how it works and isn't entirely optimized [if there are enough suggestions I might try to though]

I most likely wouldn't play the build, because it doesn't fit my playstyle very well and the real power comes quite late so it's kinda frustrating in the first levels. (also I never play charakters with ch lower than 12)

edit.: completely forgot that you have the Alertness feat as long as the Psicrystal is in 1,5 m ... together with Iron Will through the Hole that would reduce the needed feats by 2 ... gonna edit that

[JaronK]

Or that TWF on-hand attacks are unarmed strikes while TWF off-hand attacks must be made with a weapon?

No, the FAQ allows for a Monk doing three attacks at level one, all Unarmed, at -4/-4/-4 due to Flurry + TWF with Unarmed Strikes.

Of course, you're not hitting much that way.

JaronK

[Siltharon]

No, the FAQ allows for a Monk doing three attacks at level one, all Unarmed, at -4/-4/-4 due to Flurry + TWF with Unarmed Strikes.

Of course, you're not hitting much that way.

JaronK

Thanks for clarifying that ... so the build works after all

If you remove the Tashalatora houserule and just take one Level in Monk it would even be possible by common rules ...
making the build entirely legal and able to dish out 675 dmg in a round :D
Not the King of Smack but viable and fun to play I suppose

[thethird]

I'm AFB at the moment but I am pretty sure that Tashalatora is not a monk bonus feat.

[Muktidata]

No, the FAQ allows for a Monk doing three attacks at level one, all Unarmed, at -4/-4/-4 due to Flurry + TWF with Unarmed Strikes.

Of course, you're not hitting much that way.

JaronK

Not without your wand of Divine Power.

[Darrin]

No, the FAQ allows for a Monk doing three attacks at level one, all Unarmed, at -4/-4/-4 due to Flurry + TWF with Unarmed Strikes.


Note: the FAQ says you can combine Flurry with TWF, but does not say your unarmed strike can be both your primary and offhand attack. In the FAQ example, a monk weapon is used for the Flurry (sai) and unarmed strike for the offhand (or vice versa). If your DM agrees with the "multiple striking surfaces" theory, then he might allow unarmed strike as both primary and offhand in the same attack routine.

The FAQ doesn't say anything about using a non-monk weapon outside of the Flurry, such as unarmed strike for your Flurry attacks and a dagger for your offhand. The rules don't specify if the weapon restriction on Flurry applies only to the Flurry attacks, or to all attacks you make that turn. I don't see how it makes much difference either way, since you eat it so hard on the attack penalties, but some rules purists may demand monk-only weapons on *all* attacks on your turn, even if they're added after the Flurry.

[shaikujin]

The FAQ seems to be inconsistent with this though:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a


If a monk is not using her flurry of blows ability, she can claim an extra attack from a second weapon.

From the above, it looks like I can't gain extra attacks from a second (offhand) weapon if I flurry.



Also, as I understand it, anyone that's wielding a 2nd weapon can use it to gain an extra attack. The TWF feat just reduces the penalty.

The penalty reduction is useless to a monk using flurry of blows because he can use any of the following interchangeably without incurring any offhand penalty:
1) weapon in primary hand (provided it's a monk weapon)
2) weapon in offhand (provided it's a monk weapon)
3) unarmed strike from any other part of the body (headbutt, shoulder ram, elbow, hip thrust, knee smash, leg kicks, foot stamp, rock-hard abs punching opponents' fist etc)


However, Improved TWF and Greater TWF do specifically give additional attacks. Now I'm confused as to whether ITWF and GTWF will give additional attacks on top of flurry.

[Siltharon]

I'm AFB at the moment but I am pretty sure that Tashalatora is not a monk bonus feat.

yeah I mentioned it ... requires the dm to allow you to take Tashalatora as a monk bonusfeat on level 2 if you took monastic training at level 1 .... even if it does not apply you can take it at level 6 and just don't take expanded knowledge (shared pain) (that actually hurts your surviveability a lot .... should be your first goal when getting epic)

If you add a Belt of battle to the build it deals up to 1350 dmg a round -> buff vampiric weapon (or claws ... doesn't matter) ... heals you for a total of 6w8x15x2/2 or 27x15 or 405 per average

compared to the king of smack: probably able to outdmg and outheal him (at least about the outheal I'm sure), lacks some of the slayer power (mind blank), has somewhat worse manifesting, better ac, saves probably better, but depends on buffs, needs more gear

I assume for that build that you can use TWF on unarmed attacks and I think that is totally legit .... designate your right fist as one weapon and your left fist as another one

[Siltharon]

Edited the build .... please read again before commenting

[The Glyphstone]

If you're matching yourself against the King of Smack, the fact that you're relying on a DM houserule as early as level 2 (to get Talashatora as a Monk Bonus feat) isn't a very good start.

[Siltharon]

If you're matching yourself against the King of Smack, the fact that you're relying on a DM houserule as early as level 2 (to get Talashatora as a Monk Bonus feat) isn't a very good start.

read through the build ... removed that

[gooddragon1]

No amphibious anthropomorphic giant squid for 8 attacks? With some multiweapon fighting goodness?

[Siltharon]

No amphibious anthropomorphic giant squid for 8 attacks? With some multiweapon fighting goodness?

wouldn't work for rapidstrike and argueably for TWF sadly (polymorph could be an option though)

Also I try to build up from similar basics as the King of Smack

[T.G. Oskar]

The issue about TWF becomes a non-issue if you add one of the gauntlets (or gloves) that allow you to deal damage with your unarmed strike damage. Dragonfang Gauntlets (MIC 95) allow you to do just that, and add a Str bonus and Imp. Sunder (albeit 3/day only) to the mix for the heck of it. Since Psychic Warrior grants you proficiency with all simple weapons, you qualify for gauntlet proficiency, and you can use another part of your body for your unarmed strikes: ergo, no problem with TWF (because you're using gauntlet + unarmed strike). It does imply a greater expenditure of money, but this leads to another good freebie.

That freebie is having your Necklace of Natural Attacks apply to bite attacks. With PsyWar, you can get Bite of the Wolf, a nice attack that stacks. Because bite is a bona-fide natural weapon (unarmed strikes are as well, but they also count as manufactured weapons in your case, and you're not using your limbs to deliver this natural attack), which means yet another attack at a -5 penalty (for being a secondary attack), with all the properties of your unarmed strikes and dealing even MORE damage (up to 4d8 at 20th level if you can raise your ML that high).

You might want to consider Oak Body for your 5th level powers, because it grants a whole lot of benefits for a piddling penalty (you might suffer more from the loss of movement speed than from your loss of Dex, but your movement should be enough to deal with anything within range; rarely you'll find someone farther than 60 ft. from the area where combat concentrates). On the other hand, you get invulnerability to ability damage, blindness, deafness, magical disease, drowning and stunning, plus a lot of other benefits (DR 10/slashing, +5 NA bonus which doesn't stack with other NA bonuses, but does stack with enh. bonuses to NA which are counted separately, half cold damage, double damage to objects which stacks nicely with the Dragonfang Gauntlets).

You can save 1 feat by getting a Fanged Ring, which gives you Improved Natural Attack with unarmed strikes so as long as you wear it. That leaves your 9th level feat open, which can be used for Expanded Knowledge (share pain) if you can spare it. It also makes your unarmed attacks deal Con damage on a critical hit, and with 14+ hits, you're probably gonna land at least one.

Also, I'm not a fan of tomes. I presume this is a theoretical build, but I draw my line at tomes; I've never seen one in play, EVER, and you have much more chances to get the same effect from a Wish than from a tome. Coming into play at so late, they make depending on a build unsuitable. I'd always recommend building while thinking tomes never exist, and THEN suggesting them if they're available for maximum potential.

Eager and Warning weapons are your "go first" friends. An Eager gauntlet costs the equivalent of a +1 bonus and grants +2 to initiative (and +2 to damage on the first round of combat); a Warning gauntlet grants +5 to initiative. One's insight while the other is untyped, so that's an easy +7 to initiative by the cost of a +2 weapon. Think how to get a weapon that you can have considered "drawn" with that benefit, and you're set.

Oh, and: the feat you were looking for in Epic is Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting. Kinda underwhelming, since it only grants one extra attack...

[Siltharon]

@T.G. Oskar: thank you for the great suggestions and when I've read through all you have suggested I'm gonna add it to the build.
Also I'd like to add a thank you note with your name to the done build if that would be okay for you.

edit: I feel Oak form isn't really worth ... the hit to dex requires more tomes (to the point where the char can't use it in conjunction with perfect twf) and the movement hurts (that part can be offset by Dimension Hop though)

Also about tomes and gear in general: I'm aware that the build doesn't really work without tomes ... that's why I added them. Just from WPL they should be fairly easy to attain and there is lots of money left to spend on other gear. And I admit that this is a drawback compared to the King of Smack .... without the Gear the King of Smack is gonna come out ahead but with gear (both equipped equally) the Build (haven't found a name yet ... open for suggestions) will come out ahead almost certainly

[Siltharon]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a

just to clear some things up: monk's unarmed attacks count as manifactured and natural weapons, It's written nowhere that fighting unarmed and using a flurry of blows prevents you from using TWF (and I do think that is RAI)

Combined this makes my build even playable by RAW ... you might argue about a missing pair of attacks, but that is merely interpretation and not very cheesy (at least not as cheesy as a lot of commonly accepted builds out there)

The build actually works even without houserules ... hurray :)

[The Glyphstone]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a

just to clear some things up: monk's unarmed attacks count as manifactured and natural weapons, It's written nowhere that fighting unarmed and using a flurry of blows prevents you from using TWF (and I do think that is RAI)

Combined this makes my build even playable by RAW ... you might argue about a missing pair of attacks, but that is merely interpretation and not very cheesy (at least not as cheesy as a lot of commonly accepted builds out there)

The build actually works even without houserules ... hurray :)

You're missing half of that sentence, but a lot of people do:

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

So by RAW, even a monk's unarmed attacks are only natural attacks for any purpose other than spells and effects that improve weapons.

[Siltharon]

So by RAW, even a monk's unarmed attacks are only natural attacks for any purpose other than spells and effects that improve weapons.

nutpicking ... depends on how you interpret the sentence (I assume a certain interpretation in this build and I do think that interpretation is RAI)
Also as far as I've seen most ppl assume that you can use TWF with Flurry of Blows ... Most monkhandbooks too btw

I haven't really gotten a good reason for this build to not work the way I described above. I do appreciate all the feedback but I think some are just looking for something that doesn't work (at least in some interpretations) because I say it might be a more effective build than the King of Smack.

The King of Smack was built in another time though and hasn't gotten all the material I use in this build. Please consider this.

[Darrin]

The FAQ seems to be inconsistent with this though:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070410a

From the above, it looks like I can't gain extra attacks from a second (offhand) weapon if I flurry.


That's not from the FAQ, that's from Skip's Rules of the Game articles. And yes, Skip was the Sage for a long time, and most of the FAQ is compiled from Sage rulings, but I would consider Skip's articles as a step removed from the "Official" FAQ (if you're looking for a heirarchy of authority). Those are still Skip's opinions on how he thinks the rules should work, and not official rules or errata.

The D&D FAQ addresses the issue of Flurry + TWF twice. In both cases, it says you can add an offhand attack to a Flurry, so long as you are following the rest of the rules for Flurry:




The description of the flurry of blows ability says there’s no such thing as a monk attacking with an off-hand weapon during a flurry of blows. What does that mean, exactly? Can the monk make off-hand attacks in addition to flurry attacks?

Actually, the text to which you refer appears in the entry for unarmed strikes. When a monk uses her unarmed strike ability, she does not suffer any penalty for an off-hand attack, even when she has her hands full and attacks with her knees and elbows, using the flurry of blows ability to make extra attacks, or both. The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists. When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting (see Table 8–10 in the Player’s Handbook) and the monk adds only half her Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand unarmed strike hits.

To add an off-hand attack to a flurry of blows, stack whatever two-weapon penalty the monk has with the penalty (if any) from the flurry. Attacks from the flurry have the monk’s full damage bonus from Strength, but the off-hand attack gains only half Strength bonus to damage. If the off-hand attack is a weapon, that weapon isn’t available for use in the flurry (if it can be used in a flurry at all, see the previous question). For example, a 4th-level monk with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and a Strength score of 14 decides to use a flurry of blows and decides to throw in an off-hand attack as well. The monk has a base attack bonus of +3 and a +2 Strength bonus. With a flurry, the character can make two attacks, each at +3 (base +3, –2 flurry, +2 Strength).

An unarmed strike is a light weapon, so the monk suffers an additional –2 penalty for both the flurry and the off-hand attack, and the monk makes three attacks, each at an attack bonus of +1. The two attacks from the flurry are primary attacks and add the monk’s full Strength bonus to damage of +2. The single off-hand attack adds half the monk’s Strength bonus to damage (+1). If the monk in our example has two sais to use with the flurry, plus the off-hand attack, she can use both in the flurry (in which case she must make the off-hand attack with an unarmed strike) or one sai for the off-hand attack and one with the flurry. The sai used in the off-hand attack is not available for the flurry and vice versa.






Can a monk fight with two weapons? Can she combine a two-weapon attack with a flurry of blows? What are her penalties on attack rolls?

A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for two-weapon fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows. For example, at 6th level, the monk Ember can normally make one attack per round at a +4 bonus. When using flurry of blows, she can make two attacks (using unarmed strikes or any special monk weapons she holds), each at a +3 bonus. If she wants to make an extra attack with her off hand, she has to accept a –4 penalty on her primary hand attacks and a –8 penalty on her off-hand attacks (assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand).

If Ember has Two-Weapon Fighting, she has to accept only a –2 penalty on all attacks to make an extra attack with her off hand. Thus, when wielding a light weapon in her off hand during a flurry of blows, she can make a total of three attacks, each at a total bonus of +1. At least one of these attacks has to be with her off-hand weapon.

A 20th-level monk with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can make eight attacks per round during a flurry of blows. Assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand, her three off-hand weapon attacks are at +13/+8/+3, and she has five attacks (at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3) with unarmed strikes or any weapons she carries in her primary hand. If the same monk also has Rapid Shot and throws at least one shuriken as part of her flurry of blows (since Rapid Shot can be used only with ranged attacks), she can throw one additional shuriken with her primary hand, but all of her attacks (even melee attacks) suffer a –2 penalty. Thus, her full attack array looks like this: +11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 primary hand (two must be with shuriken) and +11/+6/+1 off hand.






The penalty reduction is useless to a monk using flurry of blows because he can use any of the following interchangeably without incurring any offhand penalty:
1) weapon in primary hand (provided it's a monk weapon)
2) weapon in offhand (provided it's a monk weapon)
3) unarmed strike from any other part of the body (headbutt, shoulder ram, elbow, hip thrust, knee smash, leg kicks, foot stamp, rock-hard abs punching opponents' fist etc)


Yes, that's correct. In all three cases, though, none of those are considered an "offhand" attack, because all of the Flurry attacks are considered primary attacks. The specific rules of Flurry allow you to switch which weapon you want to use whenever you like, and it's always considered a primary attack.

Let me reiterate: many people assume the extra attack from Flurry is an "offhand" attack and works just like TWF, but this is wrong. The extra attack from Flurry is an extra primary attack. Being able to switch between two different weapons or an unarmed strike is just a peculiar feature of the Flurry rules.



However, Improved TWF and Greater TWF do specifically give additional attacks. Now I'm confused as to whether ITWF and GTWF will give additional attacks on top of flurry.

TWF/ImpTWF/GrTWF would give an additional attack on top of Flurry, as would Radpid Shot, Snap Kick, Planar Touchstone: Oxyrhynchus, haste/Speed weapon, etc. The rules for Flurry and the FAQ aren't clear on whether these weapons still need to comply with the rules for Flurry (that is, must be a monk weapon or unarmed strike).

According to the FAQ, if a monk does use TWF and makes an unarmed strike as an offhand attack, it gets only 1/2 Str bonus (which appears to contradict the RAW in the Monk's Unarmed Strike class feature, but that whole "there is no such thing as an offhand" sentence is horribly confusing to begin with).

[Siltharon]

Thanks Darrin for giving a detailed explanation.

If I have to use monk weapons for the offhand isn't relevant anyways since I use my Unarmed Attack for everything. The Snap Kick and Bite are just on top of that.

[Darrin]

If I have to use monk weapons for the offhand isn't relevant anyways since I use my Unarmed Attack for everything. The Snap Kick and Bite are just on top of that.

Some DM's won't allow you to Flurry with unarmed strikes (primary) and also use unarmed strikes for TWF (offhand). You can work around that with a Scorpion Kama (MIC p. 201) as your primary and unarmed strikes as your offhand (or vice versa).

Snap Kick works fine because it's an unarmed strike.

Bite may be problematic, because some DM's may insist that on any turn you use Flurry, you cannot use any weapons that are not monk weapons. Natural attacks such as bites are not monk weapons, and thus couldn't be used on the turn you Flurry. The argument is over whether any extra attacks you get that turn still count as "part of the Flurry". If your DM insists on this, you might be able to use the Unorthodox Flurry feat (Dragon Compendium p. 109) as a work-around, as all natural attacks are considered light weapons. There maybe some other feats that add certain weapons as "special monk weapons".

[Siltharon]

Some DM's won't allow you to Flurry with unarmed strikes (primary) and also use unarmed strikes for TWF (offhand). You can work around that with a Scorpion Kama (MIC p. 201) as your primary and unarmed strikes as your offhand (or vice versa).

Snap Kick works fine because it's an unarmed strike.

Bite may be problematic, because some DM's may insist that on any turn you use Flurry, you cannot use any weapons that are not monk weapons. Natural attacks such as bites are not monk weapons, and thus couldn't be used on the turn you Flurry. The argument is over whether any extra attacks you get that turn still count as "part of the Flurry". If your DM insists on this, you might be able to use the Unorthodox Flurry feat (Dragon Compendium p. 109) as a work-around, as all natural attacks are considered light weapons. There maybe some other feats that add certain weapons as "special monk weapons".

Thanks ... gonna add that in the actual finished build (gonna get it's one thread with the name of the charakter)
With your allowance I'd like to give you a footnote too for helping me finish the build.

According the name of the build ... any suggestions: I thought about the King of Flurry but it might step on some toes because of the similarity to the King of Smack.

[Darrin]

With your allowance I'd like to give you a footnote too for helping me finish the build.


If you like. I don't think a footnote would be necessary.

Any particular reason we can't squeeze Totemist 2 in there? Girallon Arms bound to the Totem Chakra gets us 4 claw attacks, Double Chakra + Lamia Belt gives us a total of 6 claw attacks. If we can use Unorthodox Flurry on a natural weapon, I'd rather have 6 claws rather than 1 bite.



According the name of the build ... any suggestions: I thought about the King of Flurry but it might step on some toes because of the similarity to the King of Smack.

Attackathon
Whacker the Attacker
Flurrymaster 14000
Shi Si (fourteen in Chinese, which is considered unlucky because it sounds so similar to "will certainly die")

[Siltharon]

If you like. I don't think a footnote would be necessary.

Any particular reason we can't squeeze Totemist 2 in there? Girallon Arms bound to the Totem Chakra gets us 4 claw attacks, Double Chakra + Lamia Belt gives us a total of 6 claw attacks. If we can use Unorthodox Flurry on a natural weapon, I'd rather have 6 claws rather than 1 bite.



Attackathon
Whacker the Attacker
Flurrymaster 14000
Shi Si (fourteen in Chinese, which is considered unlucky because it sounds so similar to "will certainly die")

Oh I'd like to thank ppl who helped me finish the build.
Well there are some reasons for not putting in the Totemist. First you'd loose the 2 6th level powers namely better protection against dispelling your buffs and immunity to mind affecting spells.
Second, and that's more important, it would lead away from the original idea of the build (which is more of a monkstyle charakter) ... I'm not even sure if I want to have the bite in there but it's basically for free so why not

Hmm should be able to find something .... I speak chinese btw and shi si is actually a pretty good idea. Double meanings are always nice.... gonna think about it