Sorcerer help - I don't know what spells to remove!

[Ravitiate]

Hi everyone (and welcome to the Forums Ravitiate, why thank you good sires!)
I'm planning out my Sorcerer, and I can't seem to nail down my spell picks, so much good stuff and so little room :(

We start at level 5, so I need to be of use in the early game as well.

Anyway, my build is:

Race: Spellscale
Class: Marshal1/Sorcerer5/Mindbender1/Incantatrix10/X2 (Fatespinner methinks)
Stats: 8/12/14/14/10/20

Feats:
1) Iron Will [Ootygh Hole], Quick Recovery
3) Improved Initiative
6) Maximise Spell
8) Bonus feat (Practical Metamagic - Maximise Spell)
9) Extend Spell
11) Quicken Spell
12) Twin Spell
14) Practical Metamagic (Twin Spell)
15) Energy Substitution
17) Empower Spell
18) Sculpt Spell

Spells allowed: PHB & PHB2
Barred School: Enchantment (after caster lvl 6)

Level 1: Need to remove two of these
Mage Armor
Grease
Charm Person
Expeditious Retreat
Shield
Kelgore's Fire Bolt (Gets swapped out for Feather Fall)
Silent Image (Gets swapped out for True Strike)

Level 2:
Glitterdust
Mirror Image
Invisibility
False Life
Celerity, Lesser (Get's swapped out)
Robe Trick (Get's swapped in on caster level 9)

Level 3: First really hard level! Needs to be 5!
Dispel Magic (Get's swapped out when I get level 6-spells)
Melt's Unicorn Arrow (Maximised Twinned!)
Fireball
Protection from Elements
Magic Circle Against Evil
Halt
Fly

Level 4: The hardest level! Needs to be 4!
Solid Fog
Celerity
Doom Scarabs
Dimension Door
Shadow Conjuration (For Phantom Steeds, Stinking Clouds, Summon Monster III and maybe even Dimension Hopping someone off a cliff)
Mirror Image, Greater

Level 5:
Magic Jar
Wall of Stone
Cloudkill
Resilient Sphere

Level 6:
Disintegrate
True Seeing
Dispel Magic, Greater

Level 7:
Waves of Exhaustion
Reverse Gravity
Project Image

Level 8: Needs to be 3!
Shadow Evocation, Greater (Mostly for Contigency, maybe Delayed Fireball/Chain Lightning, and of course - Force Cage in a crisis)
Mind Blank
Maze
Moment of Prescience

Level 9:
Time Stop
Prismatic Sphere

[Juntao112]

Hi everyone (and welcome to the Forums Ravitiate, why thank you good sires!)
I'm planning out my Sorcerer, and I can't seem to nail down my spell picks, so much good stuff and so little room :(

We start at level 5, so I need to be of use in the early game as well.

Anyway, my build is:

Race: Spellscale
Class: Marshal1/Sorcerer5/Mindbender1/Incantatrix10/X2 (Fatespinner methinks)
Stats: 8/12/14/14/10/20

Feats:
1) Iron Will [Ootygh Hole], Quick Recovery
3) Improved Initiative
6) Maximise Spell
8) Bonus feat (Practical Metamagic - Maximise Spell)
9) Extend Spell
11) Quicken Spell
12) Twin Spell
14) Practical Metamagic (Twin Spell)
15) Energy Substitution
17) Empower Spell
18) Sculpt Spell

Spells allowed: PHB & PHB2
Barred School: Enchantment (after caster lvl 6)

Level 1:
Kelgore's Fire Bolt (Gets swapped out)
Expeditious Retreat
Mage Armor
Grease
Silent Image
Shield
True Strike (Gets swapped in after Twin Spell)
Feather Fall

Level 2: Need to be 5
Glitterdust
Charm Person This is a level 1 spell
Mirror Image
Invisibility
Celerity, Lesser
False Life
Robe Trick (Get's swapped in on caster level 9, but against what?)

Level 3: First really hard level! Needs to be 5!
Dispel Magic (Get's swapped out when I get level 6-spells)
Melt's Unicorn Arrow (Maximised Twinned!)
Fireball
Protection from Elements
Magic Circle Against Evil
Improved Invisibility
Halt
Fly

Level 4: The hardest level! Needs to be 4!
Solid Fog
Celerity
Doom Scarabs
Dimension Door
Shadow Conjuration (For Phantom Steeds, Stinking Clouds, Summon Monster III and maybe even Dimension Hopping someone off a cliff)
Mirror Image, Greater

My thoughts.

[ericgrau]

With a save involved and dispellability, greater shadow evocation is useless for a forcecage. Likewise it's weak for damage. With two saves for half it'll average half as much damage as what you roll. So you stack 3 delayed blasts fireballs into a timestop... and get a whopping 100 damage. Get real contingency because every other use is useless.

Level 2-4 are actually pretty easy. It may feel great to fill all 34 spells known with shiny stuff, and to be able to use them 50 times per day, but you cannot possible use 50 spells a day in combat. So early on dump all but 2 combat spells. Later you get utility/hour-buffs and swap those 2 combat spells into utility/hour-buffs as well. For example later on on level 4 solid fog and greater mirror image should be gone. Early on you have them, but not the utility yet. There, easy 4.

Resilient sphere is 4th level btw. A lot of spells are misleveled.

[nedz]

Why are you banning Enchantment ? Sorcerers don't have to do that. :smallconfused:
Also Charm Person is an Enchantment :smallconfused:

What level are you starting at ?

The important thing with Sorcerers is to pick a spell at each new spell level which you will spam. This is the first spell you take at levels 4,6,...

[Agincourt]

An incantatrix does, though, need to ban a school.

Edit: And he's banning Charm Person after he reaches level 6 so he can have that first level spell pretty easily before then.

[nedz]

An incantatrix does, though, need to ban a school.

Edit: And he's banning Charm Person after he reaches level 6 so he can have that first level spell pretty easily before then.

OK — but Charm Person is not on his swap list.

[Green Leviathan]

I would really suggest that you try and fit in the 2nd lvl spell "wings of cover" from RotD. my 2 cents.

[Spuddles]

I would get rid of expeditious retreat. The action cost to use it isn't worth it, and it won't do much else out of running around in combat.

Grabbing unseen servant as a first level might be worth it, when you end up using 3rd level spells in combat and don't want to waste actions on 1st level spells.

Maximize is sort of a waste of a feat slot at level 3. I would go with empower, instead. Sculpt Spell also gets you more mileage out of grease, glitterdust, web, etc.


I would really suggest that you try and fit in the 2nd lvl spell "wings of cover" from RotD. my 2 cents.

An absolutely brilliant spell.

[Felandria]

As someone who was attacked by twenty small demons, each with a Magic Missile wand, let me tell you getting rid of Shield is a bad idea.

[Ravitiate]

I would get rid of expeditious retreat. The action cost to use it isn't worth it, and it won't do much else out of running around in combat.

Grabbing unseen servant as a first level might be worth it, when you end up using 3rd level spells in combat and don't want to waste actions on 1st level spells.

Maximize is sort of a waste of a feat slot at level 3. I would go with empower, instead. Sculpt Spell also gets you more mileage out of grease, glitterdust, web, etc.
Thanks for looking at the feats too :) Empower Spell is without a doubt better early, the reason I went for Maximise is that it's a 3 level adjustment - it therefore benefits from both the Practical Metamagic-feat and the Incantatrix-ability.

While I lose a tad of late game potential, I increase the odds of getting there in the first place.

Also - Melts Unicorn Arrow, which is my stable Blaster-spell (I guess) gets more milage because there's a fixed +8 damage.

This also does free's up Sculpt Spell for level 8. I think it's a good trade.

Wings of CoverYeah, and along with Spellsurge at the top of the wishlist, however my DM won't allow any spells outside PHB/PHBII, I'm almost having trouble getting the feats approved!

Edit:
Regarding Charm Person - I don't need to swap out any Enchantments I gained before switching to Incantatrix.

[Spuddles]

No persistent spell?

I would take heighten, sculpt, and empower as the early metamagic feats so you can use them. Once you get limited wish, use it to mimic psychic reformation to repick your feats into the more powerful metamagics. That is, of course, if you are allowed to do that with limited wish.

What's the level of martial doing in there?

I would want to pick up a real summon monster 3 or 4, as opposed to the shadow version of it. Quasi-real windwall & gust of wind do nothing. You can get both those spells from mephits, I believe. Or maybe it is just gust of wind. Glitterdust at higher level is useful less for the blinding and more for the outlining sneaky things. Mephits also get that.

Summon monster can be really useful for rounding out your spell list as well as providing flankers/grapplers.

I am not much of a summoner, though, so you'll have to look the spells up/do the research on what you can get from MM3, dm permission, etc.

[Randomguy]

Who else is in your party?

Get rid of halt, it doesn't seem that great. If you want a similar spell try slow instead.

Consider fitting in Wings of Flurry instead of Doom Scarabs. It's force damage and scales better.

See if you can get an eternal wand or other magic item of Magic Circle against Evil so that you can get rid of it.

[Ravitiate]

OK, so I’ve made significant changes to the spell list.

Remember, PHB and PHB II only. Oh, and no Wish/Limited Wish

HIGHLIGHTS:



Area control is pretty cool – use Shape Spell to fit the clouds to the room:

Solid Fog/Web/Cloudkill/Icestorm/Reverse Gravity & pushing people back in with Unicorn Arrows Bull rush – even cooler when you get Acid Cloud

Extended Ice Storm is pretty powerful at mid-levels.

Icelance is a pretty cool follow-up if they escape the fog –(at later levels heightened and combined with Waves of Exhaustion for increased stun chance)

Solid Wall is a great way to seal them in. You can even quicken them! And when they’re dead, use Rock to Mud to remove the wall, then Wind Wall/Gust of Wind to blow it away, then move along.

Another cool fun thing is Rock to Mud with a Silent Image of a floor on top, trap them and start throwing the Fogs at them!



Metamagic is fun:

Empowered Twinned Melf’s Unicorn Arrow deal (((1d8+8)*1.5)*5))*2)= 180 damage and is a level 5 spell (3 +2 (Practical Twinned) +1 (Empowered) – 1 (Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration)).

Maximised it’s a level 6 spell and deals 240 damage

Quickened Spells are great! Quicken True Strike first to ensure The Unicorn Arrows and Disintegrates



Protection

Hard to kill with Contingency, Mirror Image (Greater), Mind Blank and Moment of Prescience. Celerity is of course great, even better with the Quick Recovery-feat





Things I lack/want but can’t find space for:

Earlier Teleport/Dimension Door – for now the plan is to Conjure in some Phantom Steeds and Fly, but it hits about the same time as Greater Teleport (CL 14)

I have wings – so I don’t need Feather Fall. Fly however would be cool, but I can’t seem to find the space

I lack Dispel Magic – which kinda sucks, especially if I’ve clouded a closed room we have to wait forever for the clouds to disperse

I’m very light on buffs - Haste really being my only option. However, we’re only 3 players in this game, and I don’t really know if it's even worth using the spell slots on it

I'm gonna scroll-permanency myself for constant Arcane Sight, but its still a pretty limited vision alternative at higher levels.



Spell list



Level 1

Charm Person (Swap for True Strike at lvl 13)
Grease
Mage Armor
Magic Missile
Silent Image

Level 2
Celerity, Lesser (Swap for Rope Trick at lvl 11)
False Life (Should probably swap?)
Web
Glitterdust
Invisibility

Level 3
Haste
Icelance
Melt's Unicorn Arrow
Protection from Elements

Level 4
Celerity
Ice Storm
Mirror Image, Greater
Solid Fog (Swap for Shadow Conjuration at lvl 15)

Level 5
Cloudkill
Friend to Foe (Swap for Magic Jar at lvl 17)
Rock to Mud
Wall of Stone

Level 6
Acid Fog
Contigency
Disintegrate

Level 7
Reverse Gravity
Teleport, Greater
Waves of Exhaustion

Level 8
Maze
Mind Blank
Moment of Prescience

Level 9
Prismatic Sphere
Time Stop



Spell list by category:



Blaster - 2

Disintegrate
Magic Missile

Blaster no-SR – 1

Melt's Unicorn Arrow

Buff - 1

Haste

Defensive – 9

Celerity
Celerity, Lesser
Contigency
False Life
Mage Armor
Mind Blank
Mirror Image, Greater
Moment of Prescience
Protection from Elements

Fortitude or lose – 1

Cloudkill

Reflex or lose – 2

Icelance
Web

Sneaky – 1

Invisibility

Utility – 9

Grease
Robe Trick
Shadow Conjuration
Silent Image
Teleport, Greater
Time Stop
True Strike
Wall of Stone
Rock to Mud

Will or lose – 4

Charm Person
Friend to Foe
Glitterdust
Magic Jar

Lose (no save) – 7

Acid Fog
Ice Storm
Maze
Prismatic Sphere
Reverse Gravity
Solid Fog
Waves of Exhaustion

[Mnemnosyne]

Alter Self. Polymorph. Shapechange.

I would never go 9th levels without including shapechange, unless the spell is banned or has been nerfed into uselessness. I hate to lose Time Stop or Prismatic Sphere, but Shapechange is better than either of those. Sphere is probably the better choice to swap out for Shapechange.

Polymorph is easier to skip in theory, I suppose, since it doesn't give access to all those tasty Su abilities, but I would still take it cause it's a good self buff and a good buff to throw on others. I like all your current level 4 spells, but if one had to be dropped for this I would make it Ice Storm.

I wouldn't take lesser celerity even if you're planning to swap it out eventually. It only grants a move action, and dazes you for your next round. Unless you've got daze protection, it's almost never a good idea - even with daze protection I don't think it's the greatest use of a sorcerer's spell known. Keep in mind that quick recovery isn't a sure thing. I'd replace it with Alter Self.

I would consider swapping False Life with either Cloud of Knives or Dimension Hop. If you can get persist and fell drain, cloud of knives is a great choice; persist a fell draining cloud of knives and deal a negative level every round. If you can't find a way to squeeze in those metamagics or your DM won't allow them, dimension hop gives you low-level teleportation.

[Ravitiate]

Wow, Persistent, Fell and Cloud of Knives is a pretty damn cool combo. I'll most definitely try to fit it in, feats are so damn hard.

I've tried to avoid "Polymorphism", I've played with Druids and they take forever to pick the right animal. I am however swapping lesser Celerity for Alter self, I really wanted to pick it up, and if I actually make it to level 9 spells, I'm pretty sure I'll even end up with Shapechange even though I like to think I won't ^_^

Thank you for helping :-)