Spells: What needs a rewrite?

[Milo v3]

This thread is similiar to that Banning thread, except its less absolute. I'm planning on rewritting a decent amount of 3.5e stuff for my setting, and spells is one section of it. So which spells would need a decent change to be better balanced?

[Alleran]

This thread is similiar to that Banning thread, except its less absolute. I'm planning on rewritting a decent amount of 3.5e stuff for my setting, and spells is one section of it. So which spells would need a decent change to be better balanced?
The entire Polymorph line, for starters.

Also the Celerity line.

[JaronK]

Well, that's a heck of a project, but here's a few ideas:

Glitterdust: On a failed save, blinds creatures in the area for one round, dazzles them for the rest.

Alter Self: Only grants movement modes, racial skill bonuses, size modifiers to hide, and appearance. Nothing else.

Conjuration Creation: Never creates anything forever. Spells like Wall of Stone are now Permanent duration instead of Instantaneous, and thus can be dispelled. Additionally, nothing created by this school can be the material component of anything else... which means no casting Wall of Iron and then Fabricate.

Planar Binding: Gotta do something about the creatures. For a start, Efreetis don't grant Wishes. Instead, they have a power called Wealth that creates up to 25kgp in conjured (thus permanent, as above) non magic stuff that can't be gold, or materials with special properties (explains why gold is the standard currency). Could still make gems and such, but Detect Magic will spot fake gems like that.

Polymorph Line: Grants what Alter Self grants, and also grants enhancement bonuses to your physical stats equivalent to the racial bonuses of the creature turned into, plus natural attacks and breathing modes. That's it.

Shivering Touch cannot drop an enemy below 1 Dex unless the room temperature is at or below freezing already.

Astral Projection ends immediately if you leave the astral plane. Items while projected are mirrored, not copied, so if charges are used while astral the real item expends a charge as well.

Genesis can only create planes with normal time traits.

Freedom of Movement grants a +20 bonus to escape or avoid grapples but doesn't make you immune.

Knock grants 5+CL competence bonus to unlock a door and treats you as though you had the tools to do it.

Arcane Lock raises the DC to unlock a door by 5+CL instead of making it impossible to unlock.

Items shrunk by Shrink Item take 10 rounds to re expand.

Explosive Runes explode immediate if another Explosive Runes gets within explosive range of the runes.

Simulacrum creates creatures without Su, Sp, or spellcasting abilities.

Polymorph Any Object checks the creature's real unmodified type for determining the duration, not the type it currently is (due to other polymorphs).

Teleport line: You can only teleport to places you have seen or can currently see.

Rope Trick: Leaves a somewhat visible shimmering portal (Spot check DC 10+CL to notice it).

If a magically controlled creature (such as Rebuked undead) creates a spawn that it would normally control, it only controls it if you spend the Rebuke pool/other control pools needed to control that spawn. Otherwise the spawn is uncontrolled as long as you control the creator.

All force spells that are not currently Evocation are moved to Abjuration.

All spells that primarily deal damage and have the fire, cold, sonic, or electrical type are now Evocation.

Spell Like Abilities take the same time to cast as the spells they duplicate, and still pay Exp costs and expensive material component costs.

Anyway, that's a start.

JaronK

[ArcturusV]

Hmm, as unpopular as it might be to mention? I'd suggest all the spells that let a low level character just shut down a low level encounter. Sleep, Color Spray, Grease, Charm Spells. Especially when you wizard can just burn 1 XP and 12 GP, chump change, to scribe a scroll that will severely cripple (If not outright end) any fight he ever encounters until he starts to creep up on 5th level. The Charm spells I find are just poorly written in general and it's kinda sad that even a high level character is perfectly susceptible to a first level spell that not only neutralizes him/her but also buffs his enemies.

Summon _____ in general. It's too flukey between subpar or ungodly game breaking depending on level and circumstances, and just what your DM will allow you to call in at any given moment. Gating, Planar Ally, etc, for similar reasons.

[ericgrau]

I'm planning on rewritting a decent amount of 3.5e stuff for my setting
Poor players. Nothing like 20 pages of houserules to confuse you and ruin your day. And that's if you're lucky enough for it all to be perfect. Usually it isn't.

Don't make sweeping changes. As fallible as the original designers may be, without ten thousand hours of work you won't do any better. Check your players' character sheets to see if there are any huge offenders. Then deal with those particular ones after you've sat down and given it plenty of thought.

[NotScaryBats]

I recently had a character pretty much win the encounter with one casting of Black Tentacles, so you could look at that one. lol they were EVERYWHERE O.O

[Milo v3]

The entire Polymorph line, for starters.
PF has already split them up so thats going to save a bit of time.


Also the Celerity line.
1st, make the caster paralysed instead of dazed. 2nd, remove the ability to interrupt other peoples actions. 3rd, time paralysis thingy increases in duration as it goes up in tier (1 round for lesser, 2 rounds for normal, and 3 for greater). Three might step a bit far, but I think it needs a serious nerf.


Well, that's a heck of a project, but here's a few ideas:

Glitterdust: On a failed save, blinds creatures in the area for one round, dazzles them for the rest.
Sounds good, I'm also thinking about lowering the penalty to -20.


Alter Self: Only grants movement modes, racial skill bonuses, size modifiers to hide, and appearance. Nothing else.
So basically PF's Alter Self.


Conjuration Creation: Never creates anything forever. Spells like Wall of Stone are now Permanent duration instead of Instantaneous, and thus can be dispelled. Additionally, nothing created by this school can be the material component of anything else... which means no casting Wall of Iron and then Fabricate.
Sounds good, though it could lead to funny moments when a person dispels your armour and it all vanishes.


Planar Binding: Gotta do something about the creatures. For a start, Efreetis don't grant Wishes. Instead, they have a power called Wealth that creates up to 25kgp in conjured (thus permanent, as above) non magic stuff that can't be gold, or materials with special properties (explains why gold is the standard currency). Could still make gems and such, but Detect Magic will spot fake gems like that.
Creatures are one of the things on my To Do list, and I've already decided that Genies don't exist in the setting (though it was actually for fluff reasons).


Polymorph Line: Grants what Alter Self grants, and also grants enhancement bonuses to your physical stats equivalent to the racial bonuses of the creature turned into, plus natural attacks and breathing modes. That's it.
Granting the creatures racial bonuses would make casters MORE powerful.


Astral Projection ends immediately if you leave the astral plane. Items while projected are mirrored, not copied, so if charges are used while astral the real item expends a charge as well.
The first change makes Astral Projection useful, and make it not represent the intent of the spell, but the second change is needed.


Polymorph Any Object checks the creature's real unmodified type for determining the duration, not the type it currently is (due to other polymorphs).
Not just type, unmodified everything. Also I was thinking it only affects objects, and turns them into other objects with value equal or lower than it orginally was.


Hmm, as unpopular as it might be to mention? I'd suggest all the spells that let a low level character just shut down a low level encounter. Sleep, Color Spray, Grease, Charm Spells. Especially when you wizard can just burn 1 XP and 12 GP, chump change, to scribe a scroll that will severely cripple (If not outright end) any fight he ever encounters until he starts to creep up on 5th level. The Charm spells I find are just poorly written in general and it's kinda sad that even a high level character is perfectly susceptible to a first level spell that not only neutralizes him/her but also buffs his enemies.
Charm really does need a fix, but a lot of its problems come from ambiguity. Most Save and Suck spells are going to need a nerf or modification.


Summon _____ in general. It's too flukey between subpar or ungodly game breaking depending on level and circumstances, and just what your DM will allow you to call in at any given moment. Gating, Planar Ally, etc, for similar reasons.
Summon Monster spell is going to be split into several spells, also Gating etc. spells mainly need more specific rules so that they don't mind control the "called" creatures.


Poor players. Nothing like 20 pages of houserules to confuse you and ruin your day. And that's if you're lucky enough for it all to be perfect. Usually it isn't.

Don't make sweeping changes. As fallible as the original designers may be, without ten thousand hours of work you won't do any better. Check your players' character sheets to see if there are any huge offenders. Then deal with those particular ones after you've sat down and given it plenty of thought.
I'm basically making my own PF, though I'm not the only one working on this. Also my players aren't optimizers, so these rules aren't for fixing in-game issues. It's mainly so the campaign world makes sense and that people playing in it has fun.


I recently had a character pretty much win the encounter with one casting of Black Tentacles, so you could look at that one. lol they were EVERYWHERE O.O
I'm thinking lower area and strength score. Or maybe just a limit on how many tentacles, and thus how many creatures can be affected.

[nedz]

Well, that's a heck of a project, but here's a few ideas:

Glitterdust: On a failed save, blinds creatures in the area for one round, dazzles them for the rest.

Alter Self: Only grants movement modes, racial skill bonuses, size modifiers to hide, and appearance. Nothing else.

Conjuration Creation: Never creates anything forever. Spells like Wall of Stone are now Permanent duration instead of Instantaneous, and thus can be dispelled. Additionally, nothing created by this school can be the material component of anything else... which means no casting Wall of Iron and then Fabricate.

Planar Binding: Gotta do something about the creatures. For a start, Efreetis don't grant Wishes. Instead, they have a power called Wealth that creates up to 25kgp in conjured (thus permanent, as above) non magic stuff that can't be gold, or materials with special properties (explains why gold is the standard currency). Could still make gems and such, but Detect Magic will spot fake gems like that.

Polymorph Line: Grants what Alter Self grants, and also grants enhancement bonuses to your physical stats equivalent to the racial bonuses of the creature turned into, plus natural attacks and breathing modes. That's it.

Shivering Touch cannot drop an enemy below 1 Dex unless the room temperature is at or below freezing already.

Astral Projection ends immediately if you leave the astral plane. Items while projected are mirrored, not copied, so if charges are used while astral the real item expends a charge as well.

Genesis can only create planes with normal time traits.

Freedom of Movement grants a +20 bonus to escape or avoid grapples but doesn't make you immune.

Knock grants 5+CL competence bonus to unlock a door and treats you as though you had the tools to do it.

Arcane Lock raises the DC to unlock a door by 5+CL instead of making it impossible to unlock.

Items shrunk by Shrink Item take 10 rounds to re expand.

Explosive Runes explode immediate if another Explosive Runes gets within explosive range of the runes.

Simulacrum creates creatures without Su, Sp, or spellcasting abilities.

Polymorph Any Object checks the creature's real unmodified type for determining the duration, not the type it currently is (due to other polymorphs).

Teleport line: You can only teleport to places you have seen or can currently see.

Rope Trick: Leaves a somewhat visible shimmering portal (Spot check DC 10+CL to notice it).

If a magically controlled creature (such as Rebuked undead) creates a spawn that it would normally control, it only controls it if you spend the Rebuke pool/other control pools needed to control that spawn. Otherwise the spawn is uncontrolled as long as you control the creator.

All force spells that are not currently Evocation are moved to Abjuration.

All spells that primarily deal damage and have the fire, cold, sonic, or electrical type are now Evocation.

Spell Like Abilities take the same time to cast as the spells they duplicate, and still pay Exp costs and expensive material component costs.

Anyway, that's a start.

JaronK

Nice list.
My own preference for Rope Trick is to reset the duration to 20 mins per level; which, IIRC, is as per AD&D.

Spells you missed

Action economy breakage: Timestop, Arcane Fusion, Nerveskitter.
Calling Spell coercion
Enhance Wild Shape and Shapechange
Foresight
Spells which have an effect on characters who make their save, but have no effect otherwise.

[Pechvarry]

Enhance Wild Shape and Shapechange


??????

Enhance? If these are worse than other options, those other things are breaking games.

--
For me, I just don't like spells that obsolete other party roles. So knock and such need a pass.

[Fouredged Sword]

When preparing a summoned monster spell you specify what is summoned at the time of preparation. Summon monster 1 is prepared as "Summon Fiendish Raven" or such, rather than an open ended spell. Sorcerers pick one creature per CL they have over the minimum needed to cast the spell, up to their charisma modifier. Extend the duration to CL+3 rounds for Summon monster 1, but not the rest to allow for level one use.

[Talderas]

The Gate spell should be rewritten. As written it's too ambiguous and uses questionable definitions of targets to call with it. Giving a clearer line between immediate vs contractual task would be a necessary improvement.

[Fouredged Sword]

I say let gate create a portal and allow you to make an offer, but it is up to the creature if they want to step through or not. The spell should also be able to create a binding contract between the two parties, if they can come to an agreement. The portal should stay open CL rounds if the creature does not pass through and cl min if it steps through. Negotiating for longer service should include negotiating for a means for the creature to go home.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Department of Applied Inapplicables.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Well, that's a heck of a project, but here's a few ideas:
Glitterdust: On a failed save, blinds creatures in the area for one round, dazzles them for the rest.

Not enough in my opinion 1 round blinds are kinda useless.
Maybe something like 1d4 rounds or something more then a single round.
Or we could do something like keeping it the same but the any one caught in the dust can make some sort of check and spend a round cleaning there eyes to loose the effect.




Conjuration Creation: Never creates anything forever. Spells like Wall of Stone are now Permanent duration instead of Instantaneous, and thus can be dispelled. Additionally, nothing created by this school can be the material component of anything else... which means no casting Wall of Iron and then Fabricate.

I got to disagree with you here. And mainly because to me its one of those things that makes dnd, well dnd. I don't think a wall of stone should be dispel able. Its a wall of stone. Like I could see lower level versions as you describe. I do agree that you should not be able to Fabricate a wall of iron(even though I know you can). That needs to be fixed. But the permanent nature of conjurations I think is to core to DND. Plus with the no component rule I think that the brokenness of permanent conjurations is less bad. I mean I know its the basis for the Tippyverse.




Polymorph Line: Grants what Alter Self grants, and also grants enhancement bonuses to your physical stats equivalent to the racial bonuses of the creature turned into, plus natural attacks and breathing modes. That's it.

I know polymorph needs to change. I know in my campaigns that i run its easier to just ban alter self and up. I want to make it work but I have yet to see a good working example. Mainly because I think there needs to be a mechanic to learn different forms.



Shivering Touch cannot drop an enemy below 1 Dex unless the room temperature is at or below freezing already.

I can't remember isn't shivering touch in line with other touch spells or is it more bad ass. I am away from my books at the moment. I thought this spell was only bad ass because of how many Low Dex creatures there are. Well that and how awesome Dex is.





Freedom of Movement grants a +20 bonus to escape or avoid grapples but doesn't make you immune.

Agreed with this, however I think it should allow you to move freely in certain spell effects, like web.



Knock grants 5+CL competence bonus to unlock a door and treats you as though you had the tools to do it.

Arcane Lock raises the DC to unlock a door by 5+CL instead of making it impossible to unlock.

Ya I agree these need to be changed. I don't know if they are broken per say. I might also say that the knock counts as if you had rolled a ten or can take tens or something along those lines. I think it needs more then what you mention here.



Explosive Runes explode immediate if another Explosive Runes gets within explosive range of the runes.

Wait what? Does this not happen?




Polymorph Any Object checks the creature's real unmodified type for determining the duration, not the type it currently is (due to other polymorphs).

hahahah. Is this to prevent the sandwich shenanigans?



Teleport line: You can only teleport to places you have seen or can currently see.

If a magically controlled creature (such as Rebuked undead) creates a spawn that it would normally control, it only controls it if you spend the Rebuke pool/other control pools needed to control that spawn. Otherwise the spawn is uncontrolled as long as you control the creator.

Agreed with all this.



All force spells that are not currently Evocation are moved to Abjuration.


I don't understand this one? I know there are a few in conjuration but what others are there and are they better moved to Evocation?




All spells that primarily deal damage and have the fire, cold, sonic, or electrical type are now Evocation.

What about force? I mean isn't that the core of Evocation?
Though Personally I am a fan of the dual school spells and I think more spells should have been Like this.



Spell Like Abilities take the same time to cast as the spells they duplicate, and still pay Exp costs and expensive material component costs.

Ehh I sort of agree with you on this. There are some that absolutely need to follow the spell (really any thing that is over 1 full round casting). But any thing under that to me should just be a standard action.

[Psyren]

Nice list.
My own preference for Rope Trick is to reset the duration to 20 mins per level; which, IIRC, is as per AD&D.

So, make it useless?

Jaron's was the right fix - keep it visible. (PF does something similar - you can't pull the rope up.) That way, the PCs can sleep if they want to, but the bad guys are going to know where they are and prepare a suitable wake-up call/welcoming committee.

[Suddo]

When preparing a summoned monster spell you specify what is summoned at the time of preparation. Summon monster 1 is prepared as "Summon Fiendish Raven" or such, rather than an open ended spell. Sorcerers pick one creature per CL they have over the minimum needed to cast the spell, up to their charisma modifier. Extend the duration to CL+3 rounds for Summon monster 1, but not the rest to allow for level one use.

I don't know I personally would just change the list and make some summon spells worth while and make others less so. I mean I like giving wiz/sorcs a spell that has multiple purposes in combat summons do this nicely.

[Fouredged Sword]

The problem I have is the out of combat utility of many of the later level summon spells. Maybe remove some of the choicer summons into their own spells. Summoning a monster for it's SLA's out of combat should be less powerful.

With one spell you can get access to many powerful SLA's that can heal, harm , or effect the environment.

Or possibly, creatures don't have access to any 1/day powers, but they retain a single use of any multi use/day powers and unlimited use of any at will powers. That would pair back the power somewhat.

[Talderas]

Spell Like Abilities take the same time to cast as the spells they duplicate

The rules in 3.5 already state that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The rules in 3.5 already state that.

Unfortunately that's not so. MM 315 "using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise."

[Pechvarry]

And yet,

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell

Which causes some confusion.

source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm).

Did this really change between the 3.5 MM and the SRD?

I'm assuming this conversation has been had on Ye Olde Internets a few thousand times in the past 10 years...

[Talderas]

Unfortunately that's not so. MM 315 "using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise."

Fascinating, since the SRD says that they take the length of time of the spell.

[Kelb_Panthera]

May be the result of errata. I have no way of accessing the PDF's so I can't look it up. That SRD is pretty good about having their errata correct, so there's a good chance that's what happened.

[Talderas]

May be the result of errata. I have no way of accessing the PDF's so I can't look it up. That SRD is pretty good about having their errata correct, so there's a good chance that's what happened.

I looked at the errata for Monster Manual in order to reconcile the two differences. The errata does not include the change that the SRD makes. So if it is the rule, it's coming from a non-MM source.

[Cog]

??????

Enhance? If these are worse than other options, those other things are breaking games.

I very much doubt that nedz is telling you to enhance those two abilities; it's almost certainly a reference to the spell 'Enhance Wild Shape' (which, given that it nearly obsoletes the Master of Many Forms class, could use another look) .

[Psyren]

I looked at the errata for Monster Manual in order to reconcile the two differences. The errata does not include the change that the SRD makes. So if it is the rule, it's coming from a non-MM source.

Interestingly, Rules Compendium says something different than both of these:


Using a spell-like ability usually takes 1 standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity unless otherwise noted. If the spell-like ability duplicates a spell that has a casting time of less than 1 standard action, the spell-like ability has that casting time.

It seems to be saying that using an SLA is a standard action unless the spell is faster (move, swift, immediate.) It also seems to imply that an SLA of a slower spell (e.g. a full-round or 1-round casting time, or possibly even more) would still only cost a standard.

[Rogue Shadows]

Don't make sweeping changes. As fallible as the original designers may be, without ten thousand hours of work you won't do any better.

Actually in my experience it's about six weeks of about two hours a day of work in order to give the system a complete overhaul - of which about two weeks was devoted to spells - but to be fair I did that by culling an awful lot of ideas from the whole of the Internet and consolidating them.

For one guy on his own with no help, yeah, that'd take forever, but if that one guy went on the Internet to, say, this website... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=5)

[JaronK]

Not enough in my opinion 1 round blinds are kinda useless.
Maybe something like 1d4 rounds or something more then a single round.
Or we could do something like keeping it the same but the any one caught in the dust can make some sort of check and spend a round cleaning there eyes to loose the effect.

It's still useful with my change, because Dazzled is still an appropriate debuff for a low level spell and because it also stops hiding creatures and reveals invisible creatures. This makes it a utility spell, as opposed to a default "this will screw entire encounters" spell. It's for painting targets, not just winning.


I got to disagree with you here. And mainly because to me its one of those things that makes dnd, well dnd. I don't think a wall of stone should be dispel able. Its a wall of stone. Like I could see lower level versions as you describe. I do agree that you should not be able to Fabricate a wall of iron(even though I know you can). That needs to be fixed. But the permanent nature of conjurations I think is to core to DND. Plus with the no component rule I think that the brokenness of permanent conjurations is less bad. I mean I know its the basis for the Tippyverse.

I think there's nothing wrong with having a limit on magic in this way. If you want permanent Walls of Stone, you need access to the Plane of Earth or you need a quarry or something. This limitation means Wizards can't just create endless wealth whenever they get bored. Sure, you can just make a castle... but it could be dispelled. If you want something permanent, you'll need real raw materials. That's hardly difficult to get, but it puts some limitation in. Also it means that a Wizard who wants to equip an army in full plate can still do so... but it's vulnerable to Dispel Magic.


I know polymorph needs to change. I know in my campaigns that i run its easier to just ban alter self and up. I want to make it work but I have yet to see a good working example. Mainly because I think there needs to be a mechanic to learn different forms.

You can. I like the enhancement bonus method because it doesn't stack and it means casters can't just dump physical stats entirely. But this was asking about fixes, so I threw an idea out there.


I can't remember isn't shivering touch in line with other touch spells or is it more bad ass. I am away from my books at the moment. I thought this spell was only bad ass because of how many Low Dex creatures there are. Well that and how awesome Dex is.

Yes, the issue with Shivering Touch is that for low dex enemies, it's an instant kill (most noticeably draongs, but it also knocks out many PC classed enemies who tend to have lower Dex scores, like Paladins and such). This change means you can still do that, but it requires a lot more set up so it's not an instant win. If you're running around in a cold environment, many enemies are immune anyway.


Agreed with this, however I think it should allow you to move freely in certain spell effects, like web.

Yes, that's unchanged.


Ya I agree these need to be changed. I don't know if they are broken per say. I might also say that the knock counts as if you had rolled a ten or can take tens or something along those lines. I think it needs more then what you mention here.

The "broken" part is that Rogues (who are supposed to be good at picking locks) simply can't defeat Arcane Lock, and that's stupid. You can work the exact numbers however you like, of course.


Wait what? Does this not happen?

Currently you could write 50 Explosive Runes on a single piece of paper, then use a failed area dispel on them to blow them all up for insane damage, turning Explosive Runes into a crazy bomb spell. This change prevents you from doing that... as soon as the second rune gets too close, they both blow up. No stacking.


hahahah. Is this to prevent the sandwich shenanigans?

PAO's duration is based on what the creature is. Currently you can PAO a rock into a 10 Headed Pyro Hydra (short duration), then cast the spell again to turn the Hydra into another Hydra, and the duration is now permanent. Clearly not intended. This change says that the second casting has the same duration of the first, because it treats the polymorphed creature as a rock still for purposes of duration.


I don't understand this one? I know there are a few in conjuration but what others are there and are they better moved to Evocation?

It makes specializing in Conjuration less obvious, and dropping Evocation less obvious. A lot of the best blast spells aren't in Evocation... the Orb spells, for example. Moving them there means banning Evocation isn't so obvious.


What about force? I mean isn't that the core of Evocation?
Though Personally I am a fan of the dual school spells and I think more spells should have been Like this.

Force is Abjuration. Even the Abjurant Champion assumed that Mage Armor must be Abjuration... but it's not, for some reason. It's Conjuration. It shouldn't be. The core of Evocation is energy. Of course, I just used the set of changes I was working on for my own overhaul of casting, which included Wizards being forced to use only one or two schools... Evocation and Abjuration are linked under those rules, so all Abjurers can still cast Evocations and Evokers can still cast Abjurations (both have their own special abilities that differentiate them). So, with those rules being used, I wasn't worried about a few spells that maybe should be Evocation hanging out in Abjuration or whatever.


Ehh I sort of agree with you on this. There are some that absolutely need to follow the spell (really any thing that is over 1 full round casting). But any thing under that to me should just be a standard action.

For many spells that makes them useless, though. All the swift action "this happens to your attacks until end of round" spells, generally. Note that the current rule is that spell like abilities take a standard action unless the spell would be less than that. This comes from the Rules Compendium, which trumps the other sources.

JaronK

[ericgrau]

Actually in my experience it's about six weeks of about two hours a day of work in order to give the system a complete overhaul - of which about two weeks was devoted to spells - but to be fair I did that by culling an awful lot of ideas from the whole of the Internet and consolidating them.

For one guy on his own with no help, yeah, that'd take forever, but if that one guy went on the Internet to, say, this website... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=5)
Plus playtesting and analysis to make sure it actually works. That's the big problem. The cures tend to be worse than the disease. And then the players become the guinea pigs instead. Then the next thread we get is the 837th player complaining about wtf is going on with his wizard, since he can't even accomplish anything.

If you restrict yourself to more obvious problems and keep the changes limited you're much less likely to screw up the system more than you fixed it.

[RagnaroksChosen]

It's still useful with my change, because Dazzled is still an appropriate debuff for a low level spell and because it also stops hiding creatures and reveals invisible creatures. This makes it a utility spell, as opposed to a default "this will screw entire encounters" spell. It's for painting targets, not just winning.

Fair enough, It has only been really used in the games I have played as a way to blind some one rather then De-invis. I can understand it though, I just know under what you described I wouldn't take it.
What if we kept the duration but instead it was a save every round to loose the blindness?




I think there's nothing wrong with having a limit on magic in this way. If you want permanent Walls of Stone, you need access to the Plane of Earth or you need a quarry or something. This limitation means Wizards can't just create endless wealth whenever they get bored. Sure, you can just make a castle... but it could be dispelled. If you want something permanent, you'll need real raw materials. That's hardly difficult to get, but it puts some limitation in. Also it means that a Wizard who wants to equip an army in full plate can still do so... but it's vulnerable to Dispel Magic.

Fair enough I guess.. I agree that the ways for a wizard to create endless wealth should be fixed. But I don't think that the spells should be dispel-able.




You can. I like the enhancement bonus method because it doesn't stack and it means casters can't just dump physical stats entirely. But this was asking about fixes, so I threw an idea out there.

Agreed the enhancement bonus's actually I don't have a problem with. Do you think that would be enough to fix it with out any of the other changes?



Yes, the issue with Shivering Touch is that for low dex enemies, it's an instant kill (most noticeably dragons, but it also knocks out many PC classed enemies who tend to have lower Dex scores, like Paladins and such). This change means you can still do that, but it requires a lot more set up so it's not an instant win. If you're running around in a cold environment, many enemies are immune anyway.

Ehh sounds to me like the spell isn't broken so much as just overpowered for its level. Mabye increasing the spell levels you get them at?



The "broken" part is that Rogues (who are supposed to be good at picking locks) simply can't defeat Arcane Lock, and that's stupid. You can work the exact numbers however you like, of course.

Ya the more I think of it, at some point its magic and it just says no. Maybe have it work like the original spell if you cast permanency on it or something. Cuz on one hand I agree with you that rogues should be able to get around it. But at the same time wouldn't a wizard develop a technique that stops them? Besides setting up elaborate/teleporting/weird/gygaxian traps/entrances/locks/portals to there stuff.




Currently you could write 50 Explosive Runes on a single piece of paper, then use a failed area dispel on them to blow them all up for insane damage, turning Explosive Runes into a crazy bomb spell. This change prevents you from doing that... as soon as the second rune gets too close, they both blow up. No stacking.

I was under the impression that you would get 50 saves against it(which I know you will eventual fail enough or take enough half damages to kill you.
"Explosive Runes explode immediate if another Explosive Runes gets within explosive range of the runes. " won't really fix the issue though as all 50 will still go off, from the different blasts. Also don't they all get hit with the dispel at the same time?



PAO's duration is based on what the creature is. Currently you can PAO a rock into a 10 Headed Pyro Hydra (short duration), then cast the spell again to turn the Hydra into another Hydra, and the duration is now permanent. Clearly not intended. This change says that the second casting has the same duration of the first, because it treats the polymorphed creature as a rock still for purposes of duration.

How about not making it permanent without a permanency spell. Change the 9+ option to a month.




It makes specializing in Conjuration less obvious, and dropping Evocation less obvious. A lot of the best blast spells aren't in Evocation... the Orb spells, for example. Moving them there means banning Evocation isn't so obvious.

Right so things like Orb of force should move to Evocation. I can't think off the top of my head any force spell besides the orb's/shield/and mage armour that are force and not in evocation or abjuration already?



Force is Abjuration. Even the Abjurant Champion assumed that Mage Armor must be Abjuration... but it's not, for some reason. It's Conjuration. It shouldn't be. The core of Evocation is energy. Of course, I just used the set of changes I was working on for my own overhaul of casting, which included Wizards being forced to use only one or two schools... Evocation and Abjuration are linked under those rules, so all Abjurers can still cast Evocations and Evokers can still cast Abjurations (both have their own special abilities that differentiate them). So, with those rules being used, I wasn't worried about a few spells that maybe should be Evocation hanging out in Abjuration or whatever.

I was always under the impression that force was an evocation thing. I mean wall of force, force cage, Spiritual weapon, the floating disk, and of course Magic missile. I guess I am failing to see how abjuration has force as there shtick.



For many spells that makes them useless, though. All the swift action "this happens to your attacks until end of round" spells, generally. Note that the current rule is that spell like abilities take a standard action unless the spell would be less than that. This comes from the Rules Compendium, which trumps the other sources.

JaronK
I play with the rule from the compendium. I mis typed that last part. I agree with the changing the spell likes to use the casting time of the spell. I disagree with the rest of your argument about reducing the costs. To me should be like eschew materials, silented and stilled. Though EXP costs should still be there(maybe reduced a bit), like 1 exp a pop or something like that. Also the material component aspect I agree with.. Well for any thing that actually matters (1gp+).

[JaronK]

Fair enough, It has only been really used in the games I have played as a way to blind some one rather then De-invis. I can understand it though, I just know under what you described I wouldn't take it.
What if we kept the duration but instead it was a save every round to loose the blindness?

You could do that as well. One way or another, the spell is too powerful right now.


Agreed the enhancement bonus's actually I don't have a problem with. Do you think that would be enough to fix it with out any of the other changes?

No, I don't. I mean, it definitely needs to not grant spellcasting... that should be clear. It's just too much right now.


Ehh sounds to me like the spell isn't broken so much as just overpowered for its level. Mabye increasing the spell levels you get them at?

You could do that too.


Ya the more I think of it, at some point its magic and it just says no. Maybe have it work like the original spell if you cast permanency on it or something. Cuz on one hand I agree with you that rogues should be able to get around it. But at the same time wouldn't a wizard develop a technique that stops them? Besides setting up elaborate/teleporting/weird/gygaxian traps/entrances/locks/portals to there stuff.

Magic should only just say no if the Wizard is much higher level than the Rogue. The whole point of Rogues is that they *should* be able to get through Wizard defenses eventually... they can unlock the locks and disable the traps. Higher level Wizards should make more complex locks and traps, but they should never be able to just stop Rogues entirely.


I was under the impression that you would get 50 saves against it(which I know you will eventual fail enough or take enough half damages to kill you.
"Explosive Runes explode immediate if another Explosive Runes gets within explosive range of the runes. " won't really fix the issue though as all 50 will still go off, from the different blasts. Also don't they all get hit with the dispel at the same time?

This would change things because you couldn't have 50 overlapping runes... they'd blow up immediately when you got two runes too close. The stacking is the problem, and this means they can't stack because they explode too fast.


How about not making it permanent without a permanency spell. Change the 9+ option to a month.

That still means a single Wizard can buff the heck out of party members for months at a time, or create super minions, likewise for ages.


Right so things like Orb of force should move to Evocation. I can't think off the top of my head any force spell besides the orb's/shield/and mage armour that are force and not in evocation or abjuration already?

Well, Greater Mage Armor, obviously.


I was always under the impression that force was an evocation thing. I mean wall of force, force cage, Spiritual weapon, the floating disk, and of course Magic missile. I guess I am failing to see how abjuration has force as there shtick.

It was more about grabbing stuff out of Conjuration, and again the rules I stole this from merge Abjuration and Evocation anyway. So... you can change it as you see fit. But for me, Abjuration is about use of pure magical force, while Evocation is more about manipulating elemental energies.


I play with the rule from the compendium. I mis typed that last part. I agree with the changing the spell likes to use the casting time of the spell. I disagree with the rest of your argument about reducing the costs. To me should be like eschew materials, silented and stilled. Though EXP costs should still be there(maybe reduced a bit), like 1 exp a pop or something like that. Also the material component aspect I agree with.. Well for any thing that actually matters (1gp+).

The issue I'm trying to deal with here is people gaining super powered abilities as Sp abilities... things like True Creation or Animate Dread Warrior or Extract Gift. Spells that are only balanced by their costs. That's all that matters.

JaronK

[Psyren]

Fair enough, It has only been really used in the games I have played as a way to blind some one rather then De-invis. I can understand it though, I just know under what you described I wouldn't take it.
What if we kept the duration but instead it was a save every round to loose the blindness?

Didn't Pathfinder do exactly that?



Fair enough I guess.. I agree that the ways for a wizard to create endless wealth should be fixed. But I don't think that the spells should be dispel-able.

PF fixed this too - the walls are still instantaneous but worthless.



Ya the more I think of it, at some point its magic and it just says no. Maybe have it work like the original spell if you cast permanency on it or something. Cuz on one hand I agree with you that rogues should be able to get around it. But at the same time wouldn't a wizard develop a technique that stops them? Besides setting up elaborate/teleporting/weird/gygaxian traps/entrances/locks/portals to there stuff.

PF also fixed this-

Now I'm curious - why not just use the PF versions as a starting point?

[killem2]

I was under the impression that you would get 50 saves against it(which I know you will eventual fail enough or take enough half damages to kill you.
"Explosive Runes explode immediate if another Explosive Runes gets within explosive range of the runes. " won't really fix the issue though as all 50 will still go off, from the different blasts. Also don't they all get hit with the dispel at the same time?


Under dispel magic:

"You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself. "

I suppose if you bought really high level explosive runes, you can do the bomb, but this indicates to me that if you made the runes, it will automaticaly suceed won't it?


Ugh, under area dispel..

You may choose to automatically succeed on dispel checks against any spell that you have cast.


nm

[JaronK]

You can have someone else in the party do the Dispel. Usually a Wizard or Sorcerer makes the runes, while a Rogue places them and then UMDs a low level Dispel Magic wand, or similar.

JaronK

[nedz]

I very much doubt that nedz is telling you to enhance those two abilities; it's almost certainly a reference to the spell 'Enhance Wild Shape' (which, given that it nearly obsoletes the Master of Many Forms class, could use another look) .

Yes exactly — Enhance Wild Shape from SpC.

[RagnaroksChosen]

No, I don't. I mean, it definitely needs to not grant spellcasting... that should be clear. It's just too much right now.

Yes I agree with you on that. I was under the impression that it was a specific build that could get spell casting. isn't it like you have to be a certain type. I can't remember how you get that.. but ya spell casting should be gone. Are there other things?
Also wasn't the spell casting thing something that was argued about on the forums about whether it was raw or not?




Magic should only just say no if the Wizard is much higher level than the Rogue. The whole point of Rogues is that they *should* be able to get through Wizard defenses eventually... they can unlock the locks and disable the traps. Higher level Wizards should make more complex locks and traps, but they should never be able to just stop Rogues entirely.

I guess I can see that.



This would change things because you couldn't have 50 overlapping runes... they'd blow up immediately when you got two runes too close. The stacking is the problem, and this means they can't stack because they explode too fast.

OOOOOh. OK I misunderstood. You are saying that if two Explosive runes get within like 5 feat of each other they would pop. Aren't you worried about players throwing books with a single explosive runes runes cast on it at every thing to make sure there are no runes on it? Essentially making them useless?



That still means a single Wizard can buff the heck out of party members for months at a time, or create super minions, likewise for ages.

Ya to be honest with you I have never seen the spell cast in play. I am just trying to think of fix's that don't require major changes to things, Kinda KISS strategy.





It was more about grabbing stuff out of Conjuration, and again the rules I stole this from merge Abjuration and Evocation anyway. So... you can change it as you see fit. But for me, Abjuration is about use of pure magical force, while Evocation is more about manipulating elemental energies.

Fair enough. I can't really argue with you on this. To each there own



The issue I'm trying to deal with here is people gaining super powered abilities as Sp abilities... things like True Creation or Animate Dread Warrior or Extract Gift. Spells that are only balanced by their costs. That's all that matters.

Agreed. Some of them are ridiculous. Gating solars who gate other solars or some such.


Psyren-
In regards to Glitterdust:
Yes they did..
In regards to Wall of x/Production spells:
Ehh To be honest with you I looked up wall of Iron and the last sentence kinda irks me.
"Iron created by this spell is not suitable for use in the creation of other objects and cannot be sold." Ya that isn't in my opinion enough, if they gave reasons why I might be better satisfied.
In regards to Arcane lock:
To be honest the PF version doesn't make any sense. It says it adds to the DC if a lock if there is one there, or creates one if it isn't. Yet the next line says "A door or object secured with this spell can be opened only by breaking in or with a successful dispel magic or knock spell." So even if you pick the lock that the spell created you still can't get in because you didn't break in or use one of the two spells.

[JaronK]

Yes I agree with you on that. I was under the impression that it was a specific build that could get spell casting. isn't it like you have to be a certain type. I can't remember how you get that.. but ya spell casting should be gone. Are there other things?
Also wasn't the spell casting thing something that was argued about on the forums about whether it was raw or not?

Well, I don't want to get into the details too much, but there's a very good argument to be made that Spellcasting is Extraordinary (having to do with the fact that in MMV it's listed as such, and Sp and Su abilities are defined by hw they're not spells, and the fact that you still have your spellcasting ability in an Antimagic Field, it's just that the spells don't work, etc). Since Spellcasting is also defined as a Special Attack, and Polymorph grants Ex Special Attacks, you can see where this is going quickly. Thus, if you're going to do a fix, you might as well explicitly state that you don't get spellcasting. Problem solved, no further arguments needed.


OOOOOh. OK I misunderstood. You are saying that if two Explosive runes get within like 5 feat of each other they would pop. Aren't you worried about players throwing books with a single explosive runes runes cast on it at every thing to make sure there are no runes on it? Essentially making them useless?

Right, but if you're carrying a book around like that and happen to be holding it when you wander too close to some runes, you'd get blown up a bit, so that's not a great solution. Also, if the runes were protecting something but making sure that it couldn't be taken as a last resort, you'd blow up your own treasure that way. I'd imagine more people would just use a Rogue to search for traps... that works far better than throwing pages around everywhere.


Ya to be honest with you I have never seen the spell cast in play. I am just trying to think of fix's that don't require major changes to things, Kinda KISS strategy.

If your players find it, it's gonna be a problem!

JaronK

[jedipilot24]

Well everyone else seems to have gotten the most troublesome spells so I will contribute some lackluster ones:
Greater Heroism: Should have same duration as Heroism as the higher level alone should be more than sufficient to balance it. Curiously, this is one thing that even Pathfinder didn't fix.
Greater Dimension Jumper and Tactical Teleportation are both too high level for what they do so they should either be dropped one or two levels or significantly improved over their lower level counterparts.
The Contingency series of spells would probably be better off as Universal if only to keep them from being cast via the Shadow Evocation spells, which never really made sense from an in-game point of view.
All non-acid blast spells, in particular the orbs, should be moved to Evocation.
Mage Armor should be moved to Abjuration.
Conjuration (healing) should be moved back to Necromancy.
For more ideas I suggest you dig up Treantmonk's guides, take note of every spell that's rated as a Turkey or below average and then look at how they might be improved.

[Fouredged Sword]

The wiz/sorcerer list should include healing spells under the necromany school.
Cure x wounds - Necromancy
Cause x wounds - necromancy
Restoration / lesser - transmutation
...ect

Let the required healing spells be doable by any general spellcaster. No need to have a dedicated healer, or to require the healer to be divine in nature.

[Milo v3]

For more ideas I suggest you dig up Treantmonk's guides, take note of every spell that's rated as a Turkey or below average and then look at how they might be improved.
Sadly, I can't view Treantmonk's guides because my Laptop blocks the site. STUPID LAPTOP!


The wiz/sorcerer list should include healing spells under the necromany school.
Cure x wounds - Necromancy
Cause x wounds - necromancy
Restoration / lesser - transmutation
...ect

Let the required healing spells be doable by any general spellcaster. No need to have a dedicated healer, or to require the healer to be divine in nature.

The following classes will access to healing powers:

Chronoshifter (Homebrew)
Cleric
Contractor (Hombrew)
Druid (Which is now an Arcane Class)
Necromaster (Homebrew)
Paladin
Sorcerer (Through a bloodline)


Clerics aren't forced to be healers anymore.

[Psyren]

In regards to Wall of x/Production spells:
Ehh To be honest with you I looked up wall of Iron and the last sentence kinda irks me.
"Iron created by this spell is not suitable for use in the creation of other objects and cannot be sold." Ya that isn't in my opinion enough, if they gave reasons why I might be better satisfied.

They left it vague so you could come up with the fluff on your own. Maybe the iron reveals itself as conjured material without fail in some way, or maybe it absolutely cannot be shaped or molded into anything else. Unfortunately, trying to tie such an explanation inextricably to fluff is only going to leave more loopholes.



In regards to Arcane lock:
To be honest the PF version doesn't make any sense. It says it adds to the DC if a lock if there is one there, or creates one if it isn't. Yet the next line says "A door or object secured with this spell can be opened only by breaking in or with a successful dispel magic or knock spell." So even if you pick the lock that the spell created you still can't get in because you didn't break in or use one of the two spells.

I don't see the confusion - picking a lock counts as "breaking in." You didn't open it with a key, did you?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Here's a little gem of an overlooked rule for the explosive runes book-bomb. PHB page 172 says that if one abjuration is in close proximity to another for a day, they both exhibit a visible sign of their presence. This little detail means that a book full of explosive runes glows like the heart of the sun; 100 pages, 100 runes, 99 instances of -4 to search. If the bad-guys aren't smart enough to duck when you throw a glow-ball at them, they deserve to be blown to kingdom-come.

[TuggyNE]

Here's a little gem of an overlooked rule for the explosive runes book-bomb. PHB page 172 says that if one abjuration is in close proximity to another for a day, they both exhibit a visible sign of their presence. This little detail means that a book full of explosive runes glows like the heart of the sun; 100 pages, 100 runes, 99 instances of -4 to search. If the bad-guys aren't smart enough to duck when you throw a glow-ball at them, they deserve to be blown to kingdom-come.

That conflicts with the wording in the Search skill, which states that you gain a +4 bonus to Search checks if two abjuration spells are next to each other. The difference is significant; if Search is correct, the DC doesn't change, so only rogues (or other trapfinders) are able to make Search checks to find this.

Worse, it's a Search check, not a Spot check, so it requires a full-round action. Sorry, but this is not an effective nerf by RAW.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That conflicts with the wording in the Search skill, which states that you gain a +4 bonus to Search checks if two abjuration spells are next to each other. The difference is significant; if Search is correct, the DC doesn't change, so only rogues (or other trapfinders) are able to make Search checks to find this.

Worse, it's a Search check, not a Spot check, so it requires a full-round action. Sorry, but this is not an effective nerf by RAW.

There's no conflict with the search entry. It says "two" cause the modifier to apply. Simply applying it for every extra instance of a "second" abjuration in the 10ft area isn't explicit but it doesn't go against RAW either.

If a visual effect that creates a -396 penalty to search isn't something that warrants bypassing search altogether, I don't know what will. Moreover, something glowing like that shouldn't really require a spot check unless you're trying to see it from a hell of a ways off either. You don't have to know it's a magically trapped book to see that it's a glow-ball.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I don't see the confusion - picking a lock counts as "breaking in." You didn't open it with a key, did you?

I guess but all I see is a window that suddenly has a pad lock on it... I don't know once the lock is popped the window is still closed.. I don't realy think your in. I meen you could be, but the question is still there so I would say no you havn't broken in. Ya I know its a small difference.

I'll agree to disagree on it.

[Phelix-Mu]

Poor players. Nothing like 20 pages of houserules to confuse you and ruin your day. And that's if you're lucky enough for it all to be perfect. Usually it isn't.

Don't make sweeping changes. As fallible as the original designers may be, without ten thousand hours of work you won't do any better. Check your players' character sheets to see if there are any huge offenders. Then deal with those particular ones after you've sat down and given it plenty of thought.

I don't much agree with this sentiment. Players that want to play spellcasters are the main ones affected, and they likely are already reading through a great number of books to discover what is possible. Lots of spell changes won't be relevant until later, so only a player that is thinking 5-10 levels ahead will be affected as the game begins, and this type of player is also reading a lot already. For people doing a lot of reading, making sure that they know what is relevant/applicable in the DM's setting is gonna save time planning.

The original designers were fallible, but more relevant is that they often didn't seem to read what they had written, or were unfamiliar with implications generally. It is a massive understatement to say that concrete improvements can be made. This is evident by the large number of DMs that don't operate strictly by RAW, but more of a RAI or common sense ruling.

I would also argue that crowdsourcing fixes on the internet can deliver a scope and level of refinement of fixes that exceeds that which was used in the original development of the game. Still not foolproof, but a DM can change his houserules from campaign to campaign.

So now, a few notes of my own.

High-level games are profoundly impacted by several things made possible by potent spell functions.

Teleportation: The problems largely arise related to long-distance teleporting. Protection against teleportation should probably be more developed. The spells themselves could be narrowed considerably. Expand spell descriptions to cover some legit questions likely to come up (can I teleport onto a moving location if I don't know where it is now). Make a more profound drawback for teleporting errors, a stronger hurt for teleporting into solid objects, etc (it's a fairly laughable penalty now unless you make an almost impossibly large mistake).

High-level games can totally be driven by what the players can teleport to. Consider having ley lines, dead teleport zones, and other natural features of the setting interfere. Allow Spellcraft or some related skill to somewhat reduce impact or allow mitigation.

Similar assessment of near-teleport effects should be done. Wind walk, shadow walk, etc, can entirely set the pace of the campaign, and lack of them can radically alter how the PCs (and everyone else) can respond to threats and solve problems.

Summoning: Summoning is a tool box that allows a casters to depend less on/ignore the other PCs. This is good in some ways, bad in others. Consider a careful look at the creatures on the summon lists and what SLAs and Su they have.

Calling, binding, and related have similar problems. Engaging a creature in some kind of longer-term service should have real costs, and probably not in coin. Gate itself is horribly written, and other threads have treated at length some of the things about it that don't add up and how they might be fixed.

Polymorph: Needs significant reduction in power level granted. I personally like the system of separate spells for each form that tended to be published late in 3.5, since the stats for monster are right there, reducing paperwork for the player and streamlining things somewhat. Consider carefully removing shapechange and creating a greater polymorph effect that allows one to select from a number of forms available through the individual "form of" spells, possibly shifting form over the course of greater polymorph.

Alright, a little more narrow, but awaken needs to be dealt with. From working on green slime to making cool but useless animals, to working in conjunction with metamagic feats/rods, to not granting any explicit control over the creature while also making it seem like that is one of the reasons to use the spell, the description as written is incomplete.

I will echo previous posts and second a nerfing of spells that grant outright immunity to attack forms, with the possible exception of death ward and sheltered vitality (but be sure to make life ward widespread among undead). Immunity itself is not bad in principle, but duration is a huge issue. Persistent DMM needs to be considered as well, if this is still an option in the setting.

Celerity is a very unbalanced spell. Action economy is one of the biggest, baddest weapons in the arsenal of any build, and allowing someone to instantly act in the middle of another's action is a VERY POWERFUL EFFECT. The drawback is laughable in scope. In practice, there are only a couple spells that should be considered as candidates for immediate action casting times, and all should have well-defined repercussions (feather fall, wings of cover and the like).

[TuggyNE]

There's no conflict with the search entry. It says "two" cause the modifier to apply. Simply applying it for every extra instance of a "second" abjuration in the 10ft area isn't explicit but it doesn't go against RAW either.

That's not what I was referring to. Search pegs it as a +4 to the check; Spell Descriptions says it's -4 to the DC. If it's the former, it just means that those who can already search for magic traps (rogues and other trapfinders) auto-succeed in all cases once they spend the actions to attempt a search; if it's the latter, everyone auto-succeeds if they search for it.

Of course, either way it's not terribly difficult to rule that you automake search checks instantly under those circumstances, but it's not strict RAW. :smallwink:

[Ashtagon]

imc...

teleport has a maximum range limited by line of sight plus a single exterior wall (1 foot of stone, or 3 feet of wood, etc), and must be to a surface you believe to be capable of supporting your weight unassisted. In addition, if you haven't personally been to a particular spot, you still risk arriving off-target.

This explains why wizards have towers, and why dungeons are secure repositories.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's not what I was referring to. Search pegs it as a +4 to the check; Spell Descriptions says it's -4 to the DC. If it's the former, it just means that those who can already search for magic traps (rogues and other trapfinders) auto-succeed in all cases once they spend the actions to attempt a search; if it's the latter, everyone auto-succeeds if they search for it.

Of course, either way it's not terribly difficult to rule that you automake search checks instantly under those circumstances, but it's not strict RAW. :smallwink:

There's still no conflict. It certainly looks like they intended a 4 point difference between searching for a single abjurant magical trap and two or more abjurant magical traps. The RAW results in a net 8 points of difference per abjurant trap after the first.

So I miscalculated. It's -792 to search for a rune per page book.

.... like the heart of the sun, I say.

[TuggyNE]

There's still no conflict. It certainly looks like they intended a 4 point difference between searching for a single abjurant magical trap and two or more abjurant magical traps. The RAW results in a net 8 points of difference per abjurant trap after the first.

Heh, fair enough. :smalltongue:

That needs a rewrite.

[JaronK]

Even with them glowing like crazy, that doesn't stop a Factotum from quick drawing a book of runes, flinging it to the ground next to an enemy (AC 5), and then dispelling the runes for an instant kill of everyone in that area.

Also, it being an awesome light source could be pretty cool.

JaronK

[Ashtagon]

Explosives runes: If multiple runes are written on the same object or bound together as if a single object, the resulting collection of runes becomes unstable. There is a 1/6 chance each round that all such runes bound together will spontaneously explode as if triggered.

[nedz]

Here's a little gem of an overlooked rule for the explosive runes book-bomb. PHB page 172 says that if one abjuration is in close proximity to another for a day, they both exhibit a visible sign of their presence. This little detail means that a book full of explosive runes glows like the heart of the sun; 100 pages, 100 runes, 99 instances of -4 to search. If the bad-guys aren't smart enough to duck when you throw a glow-ball at them, they deserve to be blown to kingdom-come.

You could argue that the modifier is (4 x 100 x 99 / 2) = -1980 for a 100 rune book.
This is because the modifier relates to the interaction between each of the pairs of runes.
E.g. in a book with 5 runes you have 4+3+2+1 = 10 interactions for -40

[Talderas]

You could argue that the modifier is (4 x 100 x 99 / 2) = -1980 for a 100 rune book.
This is because the modifier relates to the interaction between each of the pairs of runes.
E.g. in a book with 5 runes you have 4+3+2+1 = 10 interactions for -40

Each rune is its own magic trap. So the worst case is that a 100 page book with a run on each page would cause a 99 * 4 reduction in DC per rune and you would need to make a separate search check to find each of the 100 runes.... so each rune would have a -396 DC modifier and you would get +396 on your search check. In all I prefer the DC modifier over the search check bonus. It makes it so magic traps can be detected by non-rogues by lowering the DC below 21.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Even with them glowing like crazy, that doesn't stop a Factotum from quick drawing a book of runes, flinging it to the ground next to an enemy (AC 5), and then dispelling the runes for an instant kill of everyone in that area.

Also, it being an awesome light source could be pretty cool.

JaronK

But without a means of gaining extra actions (a seperate piece of caster brokeness) you need 2 turns to execute or you have to quicken dispel magic, burning up a 7th level slot. This makes it far more avoidable.

Also, while it certainly is a weapon of sorts, you'd be pressed to find a DM that would allow you to draw a book as a weapon via quick-draw. Even if you did, that means its not in an extradimensional storage device. This makes it extremely vulnerable to being dispelled by an enemy before you ever draw it.

[JaronK]

But without a means of gaining extra actions (a seperate piece of caster brokeness) you need 2 turns to execute or you have to quicken dispel magic, burning up a 7th level slot. This makes it far more avoidable.

Hence mentioning Factotums.


Also, while it certainly is a weapon of sorts, you'd be pressed to find a DM that would allow you to draw a book as a weapon via quick-draw. Even if you did, that means its not in an extradimensional storage device. This makes it extremely vulnerable to being dispelled by an enemy before you ever draw it.

Even if you don't quick draw it, just move action draw it from a handy haversack and throw it, and then let someone else in the party dispel it.

One way or another, giving the PCs access to an arbitrary Xd6 damage area attack that does as much damage as they want is asking for trouble.

JaronK

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hence mentioning Factotums.



Even if you don't quick draw it, just move action draw it from a handy haversack and throw it, and then let someone else in the party dispel it.

One way or another, giving the PCs access to an arbitrary Xd6 damage area attack that does as much damage as they want is asking for trouble.

JaronK

Two characters spend an standard action each and one of them spends his move action as well to take out one enemy (10ft burst is tiny)? I'm okay with that. Besides, ER is only 3rd level. Lesser globe of invulnerability stops it cold.

It's a cute trick, but there are just so many ways it can go wrong that it's not particularly disconcerting. Besides, there are much more efficient ways to take out a lone enemy or even a small group of targets that are spread much thinner and its still just damage. Uberchargers and metamagic abusers don't even need the extra standard action to detonate their WMD's.

[Scow2]

Astral Projection ends immediately if you leave the astral plane.

Items shrunk by Shrink Item take 10 rounds to re expand.

Explosive Runes explode immediate if another Explosive Runes gets within explosive range of the runes.
Rope Trick: Leaves a somewhat visible shimmering portal (Spot check DC 10+CL to notice it).

If a magically controlled creature (such as Rebuked undead) creates a spawn that it would normally control, it only controls it if you spend the Rebuke pool/other control pools needed to control that spawn. Otherwise the spawn is uncontrolled as long as you control the creator. I don't like these - but spawn should be less controlled than their controlled spawners.

Rope trick should not allow you to completely pull the rope in.

Explosive runes should be rendered inert by detonation other explosive runes for 1d4 rounds, and only one would go off if multiple within a radius are read simultaneously (Roll for which one). This should prevent parties from walking around with paper with Explosive Runes attached to the end of a 12' pole, which your suggestion encourages.

... what abuse is Shrink Item's nerf trying to solve here?


All force spells that are not currently Evocation are moved to Abjuration.

All spells that primarily deal damage and have the fire, cold, sonic, or electrical type are now Evocation.

I really like these - except Orb of Force should be moved to Evocation with the rest of the Orbs, not Abjuration. Essentially - kick energy damage types (Except acid, maybe) out of Conjuration.

[JaronK]

... what abuse is Shrink Item's nerf trying to solve here?

Shrink any large object. Climb or fly above target. Drop object. Instant kill.

JaronK

[Kelb_Panthera]

Shrink any large object. Climb or fly above target. Drop object. Instant kill.

JaronK

I'd've guessed tin-foil hat. In any case, can't you accomplish the same thing by making it only take 1 round to unshrink? A full minute seems excessive.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'd've guessed tin-foil hat. In any case, can't you accomplish the same thing by making it only take 1 round to unshrink? A full minute seems excessive.

The full minute did seem excessive. Plus, 10 rounds if you can catch the guy sitting down, just fly very high and drop yon ball of iron from great height, it takes ten rounds to fall, rotation of the planet excepted, it could still kill someone. The problem is more on the nature of falling objects dealing lots of damage, which is kind of realistic. Having a large boulder dropped on a person from even a short height will yield horrific damage, as bone after bone fails saves vs. crushing blow.

Lesson: watch out for flying spellcasters. Shrink Item is hardly the worst here, especially when they can just empty a bag of holding full of rocks over your head. I'm also sensing some innovative uses of Quaal's feather token (tree).

[Scow2]

Shrink any large object. Climb or fly above target. Drop object. Instant kill.

JaronK

Isn't that the purpose of Tree and Boat feather tokens?

And to clarify my idea for Explosive Runes - If 'stacked' runes are hit by Area Dispel, only one detonates on a failed Dispel, the rest go inert but will come online again(Unless the writing surface they're on is destroyed by the first blast, which harmlessly removes the affected Explosive Runes). 'Inert' runes will not detonate if subesquently hit by failed area dispel.

One blast should be warning enough to stop trying to read things, with enough delay to get the guy to stop reading (And maybe shut them down).

Mind Blank needs to be re-examined - It should keep the immunity to Mind-affecting and mind-reading spell (As well as future-telling divinations about the person), but the defenses against Divination should be reduced, or moved to a separate spell entirely (Greater Nondetection?). However, it shouldn't interfere with Legend Lore meaningfully.

[killem2]

@ the dispel explosive runes.

I've been reading this over and over.

If you write the same sentence on a peice of paper, say 100 instances of "this is a trap", the targeted dispel only has to hit the paper as a hole?

Does each instance get a saving throw though?

What happens if one goes off, doesn't it destroy the rest or is it presumed to happen ALL at the same time? :smallconfused:

[JaronK]

@ the dispel explosive runes.

I've been reading this over and over.

If you write the same sentence on a peice of paper, say 100 instances of "this is a trap", the targeted dispel only has to hit the paper as a hole?

Does each instance get a saving throw though?

What happens if one goes off, doesn't it destroy the rest or is it presumed to happen ALL at the same time? :smallconfused:

RAW, an area dispel is what you'd use and it would blow them all up at once. Also note that destroying the rune without disabling it would probably blow up the rune as well (a failed erase attempt) but that's less clear. If they do all go off, each gets a saving throw, probably instant killing everything in the area.

JaronK