Combine Destiny and Physics. Product? Fate [Archive]

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TheWombatOfDoom

2013-02-12, 01:02 PM

First things first: This is a sounding board for a narrative aspect of my world, but it involves mechanics in and of itself within the world setting. So I post this below, and hope that you and I together can solve the problems presented in the OP. Who's with me!? *chirp chirp* Yeah thought so. Hopefully I'll get SOME interest! :smalltongue: Any or all of this is subject to change as we progress in brainstorming, so feel free to contradict the OP, or ask me questions on the setting as needed.

So, in my setting world, three mechanics make it go round - Magic, Fate and Luck. Today we're focusing on Fate. If you're interested in the Magic mechanics, go here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263481). If you're interested in Luck mechanics, go here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=294311). All three are interconnected, so it could stand to reason that they may influence this thread and visa versa.

The Elvori - The Arbiters of Fate

The Elvori have a living connection to the force of Fate, which gives them the ability to interact with world of Aldain. Everything is affected by the ways of the world, but only the Elvori have the power to communicate with those ways. Those ways are what we call "Fate".

Elvori Characteristics:<The elvori (or elves) is one of the three founding races in Aldain. Has pointed ears, variety of pigmentations in all 4 factions, look physically different depending on the element they control. Elements were once thought to be hereditary, but are actually by choice. >

Fate

Fate is a force that functions through reactions. To control Fate is to have a power to manipulate and understand these reactions, and in doing so - predict what future reactions might be. These are evidenced by the two forms of interaction with Fate which the Elvori possess. Immediate Fate, which compromises basic physical laws such as thermodynamics, mass and inertia (to name a few), and Ultimate Fate, in which predictions can be made for future events. Fate is made up by the four primal elements that the world is comprised of (Fire, Earth, Water, and Wind), and these elements are crucial for both Immediate and Ultimate Fate function.

The Radicals of Fate

Fate in the end is a duality – it has a positive side and negative side. Some destinies lead fate toward one of these radicals, other destinies lead toward the other. It is important to note that the Radicals of Fate are not in the alignments of "good" or "bad" as might be believed. Positive and Negative Fate are two terms for states of existence, not morality. This is similar to how positive and negative could be two different charges of a magnet, or more accurately two extremes in states of matter: Moving or Resting, Hot or Cold, Light and Dark, so on.

Living things typically thrive in cases where these extremes are balanced, and similarly, Aldain is habitable because the Radicals are balanced. This is what the Elvori strive for: "The Calm". The Calm lies in between the radicals, and is what enables Aldain to survive as a planet capable of sustaining life. Some even hypothesize that the balance of the Radicals is what causes the planet to spin on its axis, perhaps it even causes the three forces of Aldain to maintain their cycle. Still, there are those that subscribe to Positive or Negative Fate exclusively. These people are known as "Radicalists". Radicalists do not care about balancing Fate, only in furthering the world toward their particular radical. Different factions within these groups justify this philosophy in various ways.

The Elements

Fate is made up of the four elements - Water, Wind, Fire, and Earth.

-

Water

Wind

Fire

Earth

Matter

Liquid

Gas

Plasma

Solid

Property

Cooling

Motion

Heating

Still

Radical
Positive Tendency
Negative
Negative Tendency
Positive

It should be understood that Water, Wind, Fire, and Earth are not truly the elements themselves but rather are strong representatives of these four states of matter. They are nonetheless still strongly analogous of the elemental forces and embody the spirit of the elements as closely as physically possible on this plane of existence. Thus if one wishes to study the element of water, then learning about water is essential to become more strongly tied to the element, but other liquids will expand and refine that knowledge. In other words, each representation of each element is the root aspect to begin study, but does not make up the entirety of the element by any means.

This also suggests why there are some exceptions to the rule - some liquids, like mercury, are not attuned to the water element, just as not all solids, like ice, are earth. Still in general terms one will find a general consistency with states of matter being attuned to one of the four elements.

Radical Influences:
Positive fate represents the tendency for atoms, particles, and so on to come toward each other, become denser and become stagnant. This would cause earth to be the element most sided with Positive Fate, but water, dealing with cooling, and removing energy from the subject, would lean toward Positive Fate as well.

Conversely, Negative Fate represents things drifting away from each other, becoming less dense, and expanding. This causes Wind to be the element that most sides with Negative Fate, though fire, dealing with heating, and moving energy into a subject, would lean toward Negative Fate as well.

Still, it must be remembered that Positive and Negative Fate aren't exclusive to any particular element, just the tendencies of them. For example, manipulating an element is generally using the element in a way it normally does not act, so doing so is using the opposite fate upon it. To expand - if I am manipulating earth, I am using Negative Fate to move it around. Conversely, if I wanted to slow air, I'd use Positive Fate to do so.

Since Fire and Water are more neutral elements, they do not react so exclusively. If I use Negative Fate on liquids, it doesn't mean that it will heat up, but I could redirect a flow or cause it to move in uncharacteristic ways. Fire similarly doesn't mean I can cool plasma when I use Negative Fate on it, but I can cause lightning to be confined and directed, instead of chaotic and unrefined.

Immediate Fate

Immediate fate represents the Physical laws, which are all things that react and happen in predictable ways, and is the most common form of Fate. This kind of Fate can be summarized by any natural and non-living reaction or combination (chemical or physical). An example of this could be - a ball is dropped, and gravity dictates it will fall to the ground. The Elements that Fate is made up of represent these reactions, whether by themselves by states of matter (solid, liquid, gas, and plasma), thermodynamics (heating and cooling) or kinetics (motion and resting), or by combinations of the elements as listed in the graph below.

Physical Term

Water

Wind

Fire

Earth

Weather

x

x

-

-

Tectonics

-

-

x

x

Thermodynamics

x

-

x

-

Kinetics

-

x

-

x

Gravity

x

-

-

x

Buoyancy

-

x

x

-

Light

-

x

x

-

Reflect/Refract

x

-

-

x

Magnetism

-

x

-

x

Electromagnetism

-

x

x

-

Elemental Manipulation

While Immediate fate is composed of these natural tendencies of Fate within the world, elemental manipulation deals with the ability the Elvori have to manipulate these reactions. It should be noted that elemental manipulation cannot directly affect another living thing. While living things are made up by the elements as well, the combination is too complex for the Elvori to alter. This means an Elvori attuned to the wind element, or a wind seer, could not manipulate the air another's lungs, nor could an earth seer make a tree grow any faster (though they could make the soil more fertile). Along the same lines, a water seer could not manipulate blood or saliva.

Even when a living thing dies, it takes time for that thing to decompose, and revert back to the seperate elements. When it has, those element could be manipulated, but not before that point. Waste matter produced by living things have already been broken down into the elements by the living creature, so is manipulatable.

Attunement
As an adolescent Elvori begins to experience and learn about the world, they come into contact with various natural concentrations and combinations of the elements. Weather, gravity, the seasons - nearly everything they experience applies to the elements. In addition, through their studies of the elements as well as observing seers that are already attuned, they see examples of how these natural elements can be manipulated.

Eventually, every young Elvori must make the choice of which element they will attune. When this occurs, they then are known as a seer of their element. This choice can be based on many factors - desire, talent, social pressure, or even a calling - a feeling of being drawn by the element itself. For some, the choice is obvious. For others, it may take years for the choice to be reached. Even so, the studies of a young seer cover all the basic features of all four elements, to give a greater knowledge to how the world works, and how the elements interact with each other.

Tempering

Upon choosing a specific element, the body of an Elvori begins to go through a set of changes, known as "Tempering".

The change begins with a chemical reaction that causes a mental awakening, where a seer can now have advanced interactions with the element they have chosen. Tempering also causes a specific hormone to be released into the seer's body. The element a seer choses dictates which hormones are released, and what physical changes the hormone will cause. Every Elvori has the capability to attune, and so each of the four hormone glands is present within their bodies. Attuning activates the neccessary glands, while the others remain dormant.

For a Water Seer, tempering causes their tongue to fork and their nose to flatten some, both of which improve the seer's taste and smell. For a Wind Seer, tempering causes their ears to become longer, and given the ability to be turned some, both of which improve the seer's sense of hearing. For a Fire Seer, tempering causes their eyes to grow larger, and the pupils to change slightly, both of which allow the seer to see in infrared if it chooses, but also allows for a better overall sense of vision. Last, for an Earth Seer, tempering causes their body to grow small, opaque, whisker-like hairs all over their body, which give the seer a heightened sense of touch.

Tempering also triggers a seer's body to begin changing into an adult, and allow the seer to begin to develop reproductively. Tempering lasts for six to seven years, and when an Elvori has fully matured into an adult, each of the four glands stop functioning, or have the capacity to function.

Elvori who Fail to Attune

A high percentage of the Elvori attune to an element, yet for various reasons there are those that fail to do so. This could be a situation they are forced into, such as they were unable to decide which element to take, medically were stunted, or perhaps an individual with malicious intent might prevent an Elvori from attuning. Finally, this situation might be of an Elvori's own volition, and has chosen not to attune for a higher purpose - to become a Scribe. This will be detailed more in the Ultimate Fate section.

When an Elvori fails to attune, they bodily have severe drawbacks when compared to one that has attuned. First, the unattuned cannot go through their tempering stage, and thus are denied any heightening of senses. They also gain a shorter lifespan, generally only living a mere tenth of a normal Elvori's life span. It is as if the intimate connection to the Elements (which these unattuned Elvori are denied) causes the usual Elvori to live longer. Finally, the unattuned are unable to reproduce, as their bodies have not gone through the changes necessary to do so.

With such disadvantages, one would wonder why any sane Elvori would choose not to attune. While it is a huge cost, an unattuned Elvori can manipulate, move, and destroy Premonition Sites, where no attuned Elvori could. This phenomenon suggests that Elvori who do not attune to a specific element, have a much more intimate tie to Fate itself, however fleeting this tie is.

Secondary Attunement

Commonly, a seer only attunes to one element, but under certain conditions, two attunements can be attained. The force of Fate must be in power for someone to have multiple attunements, because during this time, a seer's connection to the elements is closer, and capable of more. As a note, Ultimate Fate can only be accomplished in an Age of Fate as well.

If a seer chooses to attune to multiple elements, they must first be already attuned to an element. This is because the process of attunement is a dedicated and complex process. Trying to do two at once would be to counteract the efforts that must be involved. Due to the relationship a seer has with their element, a secondary attunement cannot be an opposite element. So, if a seer was attuned to water, they could choose for a secondary element earth or wind, but they could not attune to fire. This rule is also why a seer could not attune to a third element, because any other element after the first two attunements would be an opposing element.

A seer who has accomplished two attunements has the same amount of power as someone who is only attuned to one, which means they must divide this power between the two. A seer can choose to have both of their elements a similar level of power with each other (1/2 and 1/2), or have one compliment the other (1/4 vs. 3/4). It should be noted that a seer must choose their second attunement before they reach adulthood, or they will not be able to do so.
Area of Interaction
When a seer attunes to an element, they begin growing more accustomed to the element in which they are connected to. At first, this interaction is at a personal range. This means a seer can only interact with or manipulate an element by direct contact with the intended element. However, as a seer progresses in their powers and becomes better attuned, this range extends out to encompass an area of distance around the seer. It should be remembered that a seer can still manipulate things by physical touch in addition to now being able to manipulate at a range.

As the area of interaction of the seer expands past physical touch, a seer gains insight of the elements in which they are attuned to within this sphere. Also, since a seer can now sense the element within a certain range, they can also manipulate the element within that area. A seer can also focus on the area they interact with to identify which specific kinds of their attuned element are within their area if interaction, as well as the amount. A seer can then use this information to aid them in their manipulations. For example, if a water seer had an area of interaction that was 60 feet in diameter, they could sense what specific liquids were around them in a 30 foot radius, and where they were. This ability would prove especially useful for the seer if they were trying to detect a liquid underground or behind a wall, as other elements do not interfere with this ability.

Elemental Encounters

Against Water -
Earth absorbs/impedes Water
Wind blows Water
Fire evaporates Water

Against Wind -
Earth impedes Wind
Water impedes Wind
Fire consumes Wind

Against Fire -
Earth smothers Fire
Water cools Fire
Wind extinguishes Fire

Against Earth -
Water erodes Earth
Wind erodes Earth
Fire breaks down Earth

One would notice this list shows that all elements affect each other by beating each of the elements in some way, or by also in turn being beaten by them. Thusly, no element is truly superior to another. The winning result of an interaction is dependent on which element is more strongly represented. For example, in one interaction between Fire and Water, Fire could be represented in more capacity than Water, thus causing Water to boil and evaporate. On the other hand, there could be more Water in the interaction, causing the Fire to be extinguished.
Progression and Energy
Power = Progression Level / Amount of Elements Attuned
Caliber of Manipulation = (Ability + Skill)

Progression Level = (Age x Experience)
Ability = (Sensitivity + Precision) x Progression Level
Skill = Creativity(Imagination and Aptitude) + Study (knowledge of elements)

Sensitivity; which user can more accurately interpret what they're sensing to pinpoint that underground water, or sense smaller amounts?
Precision; when it comes to actually manipulating the element(s), which user has finer control?
Progression Level; how much energy can I excert toward manipulation.

Progressive Power

As a seer ages and grows more experienced with their element, the area immediately around them takes on more and more the appearance of their attuned element. This is mainly a visual representation of the increasing amount of energy a seer is able to gather as they age. This "bubble of energy" is the energy that is stored for elemental manipulation. For earth, this could be an aura of dust or stillness, while fire might cause a ripple in the air or heat. Water may cause the air around a seer to be damp or cool, and an air seer would seem to always have a breeze around them. These characteristics increase as they age. When a seer of some notable power uses this energy, the effect can appear to be their figure clothed in the element they are attuned.

Elemental Energy

While the a seer has an increased capacity of energy they can gather as they progress, the element still must be drawn from a seer's environment. Each element acts differently, and so, each seer must be conscious of their element's fluctuations so that they can plan to use their element the most during times or areas in which they have the opportunity to replenish their energy. For example, if a fire seer was traveling through a frigid area, it would not be wise for them to expend all their energy quickly, since conditions would not be optimal for gathering more energy in such a climate.

Earth - Always a steady source of energy, never fluctuating. Comes in a constant stream. Absorbing energy from this element smooths out areas of terrain over time, creating flatter areas, or gradual slopes instead of rocky and rough terrain.

Water - A source of energy that accumulates, akin to a basin being filled with liquid. The energy within this basin can be tapped anytime while it is filling, and will continue to fill until it is at capacity. Any tapped energy while filling just sets back the accumulation. Absorbing energy from this element might make freezing areas a little more comfortable, or make tidal patterns calmer.

Wind - Always a fluctuating source of energy, never steady. Comes in a varying stream. Absorbing energy from this element might calm winds, or be protected from harsh winds.

Fire - A source of energy that dissipates, akin to fuel being burned away. The fuel will continue to burn away until it is burned out, and then new energy must be accumulated. Unlike water, energy cannot be tapped when it is being replenished with fire. Absorbing energy from this element might make seering hot areas cooler and more comfortable, or make active volcanos calmer.

The Embrace

After a seer reaches a certain age, they gain enough latent energy to perform an act known as "The Embrace". The Embrace is when a seer who is at full elemental charge unites with the energy around them. The aura around them consolidates to cover a seer's body, and they take on a form resembling a creature consisting totally of the attuned element. When in this form, a seer receives major advances to the capacity at which they can manipulate their element.

Wielding this power is no easy feat, however. Merging with the elements in this way is addictive, and can have destructive consequences for repeated use. A seer that is not careful within this state could lose control. If this happens while actively manipulating an element, there may be unexpected affects, such as causing bodily harm to the seer within the embrace, or even to others nearby. It could even have explosive consequences, such as creating a localized disaster, such as flooding, wind storms, flash fires, or landslides. If one is killed during an Embrace, or by the negative affects of an Embrace that has gotten out of control, they are devoured by the element. The Embrace will rip them apart and leave no trace behind.

Further, the more addicted a seer becomes to the Embrace, the more that seer's personality begins to embody that of their element. Earth seers become increasingly stubborn and unrelenting. Fire seer's tend to become increasily easy to anger. Air seers become unfocused and easily distracted.
Water seers become more apathetic, calm, and disinterested. These are certainly not sudden occurances, and wear off over extended periods of resisting embrace.

These negative affects do not cause Embracing to become taboo in the Elvori society. Embracing is often a necessary task. A seer's education impresses moderation for this sacred technique.

The Final Embrace

At the end of a seer's life, a seer with enough energy can perform an act known as the "Final Embrace" where they become one with their element of attunement. It is essentially merging with the Elemental Expanse.

Elemental Capabilities
Fire
Heating

Evaporate
Cook
Sterilize
Heat Other Element
Crack Solids
Harden
Melt
Boil
Burn
Forge/Weld
Create Glass
Make Air Hotter

Start/Create Fire

Flame Manipulation

Fire Balls
Fire Wall
Ray of Fire

Lightning

Electrical Manipulation
Blinding Flash
Shock
Intimidation

Light
??

Earth Earth Changing
Fertile soil
Stone to sand
sand to stone

Earth Manipulation

Movement of Earth

Shaking Earth
Shaping Earth

Movement with Earth
Pushing with Rock
Move through Earth
Boosting vertically

Friction
Metal

Remove Impurities

Weight - Increase

Delayed weight gain

??

Water
Cool/Slow Particles/Increase Density
Freeze Water
Snow
Ice

Walk on Water
Slow Flow

Water Manipulation
Water Balls
Water Wall
Water Lash
Water Purification
Remove Water

Cloud Summoning
Darkness
Volume
??

Wind
Sound
Alarm
Whistle
Carry Sound
Sound Dampening

Air Manipulation
Gusts/Pushing
Blow Out Fire
Fill Sails
Change Flow of Wind
Push things away

Suction/Pulling
Pull things Toward

Air Bubble
Cyclone
Improve Aim
Flight

Friction
Improve Speed

Light

Mirage

Buoyancy - Decrease Weight
??

Ultimate Fate

While Immediate Fate centers on reactions that occur in the present, Ultimate Fate centers on the prediction of future events by way of the knowledge and connection that Elvori have to the elements. This can be in the basic physical Prediction, which predicts future physical reactions that may occur in the future, or by Premonition, which predicts possible futures outside of those reactions.

In both of these types of prediction, a seer must be in a meditative state to connect with this ability. The more complete a meditation, the better quality the prediction might be. Some Elvori accomplish this by focusing on an element with as many of their senses as possible. A seer might seek out a peaceful or perfect location that can achieve this, called a sanctum. A sanctum might be an isolated place where one can focus on a fire, a natural place with the abundance of the element, or a place constructed to allow the best conditions for a seer’s meditation. Often the sense of their attunement is the main contributor to a meditative state, but the others senses assist in focusing a seers full mind on the task.

In times where a sanctum is not available, a seer might choose a different method to attain the conditions of meditation - hallucination. This usually takes more of a physical toll on the body, but has the advantage of being done in any location. Due to this, seers generally only use this method for premonitions. Usually these are achieved by inhalants and intoxicants, but this method was originally discovered by seers that were close to death. Seers who nearly suffocated or drowned, had heat exhaustion or delirium tended to have visions of the future pass before their eyes, and were sometimes able to recount them if they recovered. Fortunately, the Elvori have found more reliable and less dangerous methods of achieving this. Consequently, the Elvori take careful effort to ensure other races do not have knowledge of this, as it could mean that one with enough power who wishes to know the future might try to abduct a seer and torture them to near death in order to attain that knowledge.

Anchors
At a sanctum, if a seer has a premonition, this prediction leaves an imprint of that premonition on that location. This imprint takes on the form of the element in some variety of ways. Some examples might be an inexplicable pool of water, geometric formation, ever burning flame, or a gusty place on a still day. The physical marks may vary, but their purpose is identical, they exist as a physical link to the premonition. If this representation is not made, the premonition only exists in the memory of that seer and can then only share the premonition through other, less reliable means from an unreliable source - a memory. Any seer attuned to the element that the anchor is aligned with can view the premonition it contains, but can do little else to it. Anchors show the full premonition as it appeared to the original seer, and holds no value on specific details that a seer retelling a premonition might. Anchors, as the name might suggest, cannot be transported from their location. However, there is one exception - one of the few abilities that a scribe possesses is to be able to harbor an anchor. Anchors can also be destroyed with enough effort, or from a natural catastrophe.

Prediction of Future Events

While in a meditative state, a prediction on the future might take on various forms. Sometimes these predictions are in the form of a feeling, whereas other times it might be the form of a vision. Visions can sometimes be symbolic, and while others might be a direct viewpoint of the event, as if the seer was there.

Predictions
Similar to how one who studies the weather might make predictions based on this knowledge, certain reactions in the world can be predicted through a seer’s elemental bond. A seer that has attuned to water, wind, or both, could predict a future storm or weather pattern; an earth seer might predict a rockslide or earthquake; fire seers might foresee a dry season or heat wave, etc.

Premonitions
Through their connection to the four elements of Fate, some Elvori have the talent to sense possibilities of the future and how these possibilities touch an individual or the world as a whole. Only the Elvori can sense these possibilities, and how they affect things. Fate is commonly believed to be the power that dictates the events that need to occur to maintain the existence of the world, though this is incorrect. Fate isn’t partial to an entity, the same as the fact that a boulder is impartial to the things it falls on.
Think of the overall concept of premonitions as different members of Elvori factions all predicting possible futures that affect their overall element’s future in some way shape or form. Generally, these futures gravitate toward advancing either the radicals of positive or negative fate, though it is not always clear. Depending on what these predictions foretell, a seer (or forum of seers) can choose to do one of three things: attempt to ensure that a prediction comes to pass, ensure that it does not, or take no action either way. It should be noted that a seer does not have the ability to see a pivotal point in the future, only smaller events that may lead to it. They can only do this through immediate fate. Elves can see the future, but can only touch the present. So ultimately, seers from each elemental group work toward securing a pivotal point that benefits their element by working with or against other factions. Because of this, the Elvori have a reputation for being interested in accomplishing seemingly insignificant things like making sure a door is open (or shut) on a certain date, or making sure two persons meet (or never meet).

Pivotal Points
A pivotal point is a significant future event that will happen in the future. To the Elvori, a pivotal point is similar to looking into space with a telescope and seeing a black hole. You don’t actually see the black hole itself, you see the evidence of it by the reactions around it. In the same way, when studying premonitions of the future, pivotal points are clarified by the predictions leading up to and after the moment. Once a pivotal point has occurred, it becomes a fixed point, and the predictions centering around the discarded possible futures attached to it fade away. You can not go back and change a choice already made. The flow of fate faces forward - always.

Roles within Ultimate Fate

Forums
Foremost, the Elvori are all joined intrinsically with one another as being the Custodians of Fate, and in that they are of one mind. They have the single unified purpose of maintaining balance through their abilities to manipulate fate. However, it is inevitable that seers will form like-minded groups who work together to achieve a specific goal, and these groups are called Forums. Usually the goal a forum has is to affect a pivotal point or a grouping of possible futures. Multiple forums usually emerge whenever a pivotal point is clarified, some working toward that point, and some working against it. Forums can emerge before a pivotal point is realized, but these are generally smaller and consist of older seers who prefer the ever-mercurial long game to the fast-paced reactionary approach of the younger elves.

Since premonitions are not always clear which radical is benefited, much of the start of a forum is spent studying the predictions in question, and attempting to see the possibilities and outcomes that form from it. From there, discussion begins in earnest as to the best action to take, and debate tends to deal with what needs to be done to improve the chances of the forum’s goal.

These forums do not have to be Elvori of the same element, though most often they are. Due to the nature of things, forums tend to be stronger when there are more than one type of elemental representation because they can see more possibilities and a greater range of predictions, but generally this leads to less action and more debate.

It is worth noting that whereas a well appointed forum can see very accurately into a single outcome of an event, the bigger picture is often lost when you have many seers focusing on one event. As a result, forums not only oppose and/or support each other depending on their motives, but are also unable to deal with larger and further-reaching issues of the present, and so the number of seers across an area who are involved in a forum never tends to rise above about 30% (exceptional circumstances may see more).

Scribes
When an Elvori chooses to remain unattuned, it is to become a scribe. Scribes have no connection to the elements, and yet, still hold a connection to Fate itself. Without the distraction of elemental attunement, scribes have a greater understanding of predictions and how they relate. Since scribes only live 50 or so years and can't reproduce, they essentially are removed from having a future of their own, making them the perfect impartial caretaker for possible futures.

Scribes have the ability to handle, view, modify, protect and destroy Anchors, which allows them to gather them and protect them in a place known as “The Archives”. Many scribes will travel across the land to gather these Anchors and bring them to the archives, and then group them with like premonitions.

Scribes will never join a forum, and rarely discuss predictions until they have been observed for some time, then considered carefully. Once this has been done, debate and study of related predictions take up most of a scribe's time. Sometimes a scribe or two will enlist a forum which they have a vested interest in, sponsoring their study with information gleaned from the archives. In such cases the consequences of the event in question are usually important enough to warrant the attention of a significant number of seers, and large schisms have been known to form within Elvori society for the duration of such events.

World Reception

The ability to predict future events often creates controversy for the rest of the world. Questions such as is there freedom of choice if people can see the future and know what we will do? On the other hand, does the existence of multiple futures dissolve the idea of destiny? In the end, this is a topic of much debate. Some argue that despite multiple futures, whatever path ends up occurring is the Fated path.

The existence of the Elvori and their ability to affect the future creates the concept of multiple futures. If seers did not exist, the future would be linear - everything would just happen without variables. However, it is worth noting that those multiple futures DO still exist, it's just that no one would have the knowledge of them to act upon. Choices matter both with and without the Elvori, and whether the knowledge that the Elvori have produces a positive or negative effect on the world as a whole is a matter of debate.

Due to the fact that there are multiple futures, the concept of a paradox (telling someone a prediction about them makes that prediction occur) is an invented term by those who are not happy with the outcome of their choice. By knowing a future, one can always choose to act, not act, or act against that knowledge, just as the Elvori have that same set of paths when they make a prediction.

Some people actively seek to find out what their future holds, while others actively hold contempt for the ability. Others are ambivalent to the ability, and still others consider the ability to be a lie and that the Elvori only use this lie to assist in pushing their own agendas. Some might view the ability as grand one moment, and when life takes a turn for the worse might curse it. The ability to make predictions creates animosity toward the Elvori, who are blamed by those who do not understand the simple concept that the world does not revolve around an individual. An arrow let fly will hit whatever is in its way - child, thief or king.

Workspace
Fate:
2. Remedying more of a connection between elemental and predictional powers so it's more concise as to how they connect to Fate.

3. How the power over Fate is stronger or weaker depending on if it is in power or not. I was thinking that elemental and prediction power is kind of like a radio frequency.

When Fate isn't in power, they are actually farther away from the frequency, and so the signal doesn't come in as strong. Static and such complicate things.

Notes from Frathe: For a (predictional) system, you could go with:

Fire (Pyromancy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyromancy))

Earth (Geomancy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomancy))

Wind (Aeromancy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeromancy))

Water (Scrying (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrying) pools; hydromancy)

Detecting Attunement (dependent on how I go with elven appearance).

The only definite way to tell what element or elements a seer is attuned to is through physical contact between two seers. The contact must last for more than a brief touch for this to occur. Customarily, Elvori etiquette calls for an unfamiliar seer to offer their hand in greeting to show that they do not wish to hide their attunement from their host. If a host chooses to grasp the hand of the stranger, they are accepting the offered knowledge. Class difference however affects this exchange - those of higher class are entitled to grasp hands with someone of a lower class. A refusal to accept a hand shake in this circumstance is a sign of disrespect.

Still, in observing the actions of a seer, one might be able to tell what elemental attunement a seer might possess without touching them. For example, say an observer had a rare stone in their pocket. One might be able to deduce that the observed seer is an earth seer if their eyes darted to that pocket, or some other similar tell that showed the seer was aware of your pocket's contents. One might also be able to distinguish a seer based on the physical changes they have gained through attunement.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-02-12, 01:08 PM

Wind- patterns blown in sand, dust or leaves. The shape of the clouds.

What sort of specific events would be fated?

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-02-12, 01:10 PM

What sort of specific events would be fated?

Good question...things like a battle, or a birth, or a storm. Things of that nature. Some seemingly smaller things could be fated too, such as someone serving a certain dish, or such.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-02-12, 01:13 PM

Is an interesting idea- if this is for a game system, I'd lean away from predestination. With most players, that's just asking for trouble.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-02-12, 01:16 PM

Is an interesting idea- if this is for a game system, I'd lean away from predestination. With most players, that's just asking for trouble.

Here's the thing, both options do not predestine anything. One says what should be done to keep the world from going eskew, the other lists events that will happen, but not how they will. But perhaps when Fate isn't in power, there isn't any prediction ability. Just the control over the elements. That could work.

Either way, this technically is part of the background of a bunch of story notes I have, but I use this world often in D and D. Either way, as with most settings, some limits come into play, like "no elves" or something.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-02-12, 01:50 PM

Well, even an event happening at all can be prevented by a sufficiently difficult player.

I dunno, my universe has some time-travel, so I'm trying to work out some of the same issues.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-02-12, 01:57 PM

Well, even an event happening at all can be prevented by a sufficiently difficult player.

I dunno, my universe has some time-travel, so I'm trying to work out some of the same issues.

In the first type, that's entirely possible. Knowledge of the event could even in some cases cause it to not happen, which is why the elves would likely be inclined to not allow predictions to meet the masses.

In the second, they might try to cause the event not to happen, but good plotting dictates their efforts to prevent an event might cause it to happen somewhere else, or cause the event TO happen.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-02-12, 02:20 PM

That works. What exactly do you mean by "decline", by the way?

SamBurke

2013-02-12, 04:54 PM

So, by option one, whenever you "break" fate, the world unravels a little bit, and comes closer to the end times?

And with option 2, you just know that something will happen out of this general category, but not what.

Amechra

2013-02-12, 05:53 PM

Alright, let me chime in with something slightly different, which might synergize with your ideas in some manner.

In one setting I have been working on, Fate is what will happen if everything takes the easiest path.

So physics is, much like here, an outcome of fate, since it says that if something has nothing supporting it, it falls.

At a higher up level, using Fate to tell the future is much like using chemistry to predict the behavior of a gas cloud; while the actions of a single particle are non-deterministic, the over-all behaviors of the cloud are deterministic.

Actually, that isn't entirely accurate; you can use Fate to predict individuals, but it won't take into account them doing heroic acts (so, for example, Fate might state that a baby bird will fall from its nest; it wouldn't predict if someone, who was in a particularly good mood that day, put it back, unless that person would do it most of the times they ran across a fallen baby bird.)

Have you ever pretty much gone "autopilot" when doing a repetitive task, thinking about something else while your body does the rest? When that happens, you are following Fate much like how you normally follow Physics.

If the Fate of an area starts getting glitchy enough (i.e., enough people start acting "out of character", magic modifies things so they fall up, etc, etc), Fate resets, mindlessly re-evaluating its predictions so they match observed reality.

Then, of course, there are beings that aren't visible to Fate; Fate doesn't incorporate their actions when making predictions.

Hope you can pull ideas from this mess...

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-02-13, 09:28 AM

Alright, let me chime in with something slightly different, which might synergize with your ideas in some manner.

*snip*

Hope you can pull ideas from this mess...

Alright, there are a few things I've gleaned from this...

So in your system, what if I took a hard path? It's unpreditable? Does that imply that our normal behaviour is the behaviour that fate has fashioned us to be, or intuition that it is the right easy path?

If we refer to small particles in a chemical or even say electrons or cells as "acting naturally", we generally refer to what the particle is essentially made to do. So if it acts irregularly, its an occurance where its going against fate in your model? (just trying to see if I'm understanding you right)

And if that's the case, generally these small particles are working toward some much bigger goal - a reaction, a living body, what not. If we extend that scope to living beings, it would imply that everything has a purpose to the greater goal of the world, leaning toward my "world health" model.

Magic it seems contradicts Fate often, at least in the immediate sense. It causes fate to reset. But in other cases, it could also assist Fate in resetting. Hmmmm...

@ everyone -

Last, this reminds me of a dream I had one time that I meant to put in the OP (spoiled for length):

I remember the dream being hazy, but feeling very real. Not foggy, more like everything had a sierra tone to it. I was in a store: a big grocery store, warehouse style. I'm unsure if someone knows what Sam's Club or BJ's Wholesale is, but one of those type of stores where they sell items in bulk for cheaper prices. So I can get a pack of 10 ketchup containers, that each cost less than other places, but I can't buy less than 10. Trade offs... Anyway, I was going through the store and saw prices on the walls and hanging from the ceiling. I still to this day remember the prices on the signs because in the dream I thought, "Wow, that's a great price." I was in the store with my family and we went down certain ailses and so on. This is the kind of store that also occasionally has free samples of food products for customers to taste, and at the end of the dream, I saw ahead a booth set up giving out samples of meatballs in marinara sauce. In the dream I was really excited, because that's pretty much my favorite thing to eat. It was getting quite a crowd, and I remember passing different people to reach the place. (this detail - passing people that I didn't recognize - is strange for my dreams, because I generally don't have multiple individuals in my dreams I don't know) After I get my sample, I head to the check out lanes where the rest of my family is checking out.

Why did I tell you this dream? Well, after having this dream, I wrote it down, as at the time I was keeping a dream journal. 8 months later, I walk into a store with my family...and part way into shopping I stop dead in my tracks. I realized it all looked familiar (though I'd never been to this particular store before) and then I realized why - it was the store from my dream, and I remembered the dream partway into the happenings in the dream. Now at this point I had two choices. I could continue down the paths that my dream had led me, to see how accurate the dream was to what really happened (basically, to see if I had really dreamed it or not, or if I was just superimposing the dream on the appearance of the store) or I could just go a different way. Curiousity got the best of me, and my family turned down the SAME exact aisles, I saw the SAME exact prices, and low and behold, at the end of the dream, I passed ths SAME exact people and there was a meatball sample cart. The TASTE was the SAME. It was really wierd and unsettling. And I'm still not sure what to make of it. Why would this dream be predicting this event? Nothing special happened in it. Nothing earth shattering as far as I know. What would have happened if I'd skipped the aisles and gone straight for the meatballs? It's something so eerie, I think whatever system I go with for fate, it has to account for this in the system. My magic system was inspired by a dream, so why not fate? Not sure how to immediately relate it at the moment...anyone have some thoughts?

Amechra

2013-02-13, 12:40 PM

To clarify my system, let's say that you have an elf with the "magical" power to redefine a person's fate. Say it's a form of a curse; he makes a prophecy of doom that affects his foe.

Let's say he goes up to Bob, a random dude, and curses him to never again enter the pub in the village.

Now, what will happen is that, unless he tries really hard to go into the pub, he won't be able to go in; one of his friends will call him over to somewhere else when he tries to go in, or the pub is closed for repairs the day he goes to try to go in. It doesn't matter too much to him, so he doesn't resist it to much.

Let's say a horrendously powerful and terrifying demon comes and commands Bob to enter the pub, or everything that he knows and loves will be devoured. No amount of fate will stop him from passing that threshold.

Hard paths are unpredictable, until they become "easy" paths, since they are what you are doing when Fate resets. It isn't mind control, it is just an intuitive "path of least resistance."

Of course, in my setting, one of the major factions use the manipulation of fate to screw people they don't like over (You pissed them off? Your farmers are going to get very restless very soon, since the Fatecarvers just made revolution the path of least resistance.)

And, along with that, an experienced Fatecarver can do stuff to that particular channel that gives you incentive to stay on track, including making Fate actively backlash against you if you resist it (you want to resist the fact that he cursed your farm to have low yields? Be ready for your life to be ruined in a thousand painful ways.), and reward you for following fate (you know, with the last example, it behooves me to bring up a joke:
What do you get if you play a Country song backwards?
The singer gets his car back, his house back, his wife back, his dog back...)

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-02-13, 01:05 PM

Amechra

2013-02-13, 01:30 PM

Honestly, removing the ability to alter the fate of an individual, it fits quite closely to #2; you'd have to remove the fact that in my system, Fate repairs itself (which is half the point) to have it fit in with method #1.

The only real difference between #2 and my method minus fate manipulation is that in #2, you could predict that that coin will be flipped; in my method, you would predict that a certain person would flip a coin, and maybe even which coin it will be. Trying to get a read off an object in my system doesn't work, since they don't have behavior, and thus don't have a "path to follow" with fate, though I guess you could run predictions by proxy (see what channels lead into that particular outcome, for example.)

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-02-13, 02:08 PM

Ah ha! And we get to an essential question! Do I want fate to heal itself, or for others to heal fate?

That works. What exactly do you mean by "decline", by the way?

Sorry I missed this! Think global warming, inbalance of natural order, decline to the world. Extinction. So on.

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-02-13, 09:37 PM

Have either of you read Asimov's Foundation trilogy? It has a similar concept to the one you're describing. In it, mathematical statistics have been combined to form a field called Psychohistory, which can predict the future, but only over large groups of people and long periods of time. So, they can say "The empire will fall in 300 years, and 30,000 years of anarchy will follow" but not "Bob will have a sandwich on Tuesday." The psychohistorians thus put in place a project to try to use their foreknowledge to steer the course of history, and prevent or mitigate the worst of what they predict.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-02-13, 10:58 PM

FreakyCheeseMan

2013-02-13, 11:07 PM

That's essentially what I'm saying, yes. Perhaps I'll need to give it a read! Or spark notes it....Or research the setting...

I've been a lazy reader lately, so I'm still early into it, but it's not a tough read. A little dry - Asimov was clearly more interested in the science and sociology than the characters - but fast-paced an interesting. Not that long, either.

And, of course, it's the basis of Sci-Fi in the way that Lord of the Rings is the basis of fantasy. :P

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-02-14, 07:30 AM

I've been a lazy reader lately, so I'm still early into it, but it's not a tough read. A little dry - Asimov was clearly more interested in the science and sociology than the characters - but fast-paced an interesting. Not that long, either.

And, of course, it's the basis of Sci-Fi in the way that Lord of the Rings is the basis of fantasy. :P

I've read some Asimov, yes, and have this synopsis as well. Alas, I don't mind, the same way I didn't mind Tolkien being more interested in certain world building and historical aspects. :smallsmile:

Veklim

2013-02-16, 07:19 AM

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-02-19, 02:33 PM

Psychohistory indeed! It's VERY similar in some respects, aye.

Here's my two coppers worth on the general idea :)

When fate is in power, a practised practitioner can manipulate their element in real time to change it's behaviour in some significant way (making water flow uphill, creating a mountain path from a craggy ridge, etc). They may also predict closely the outcome of current events (who will win a battle taking place right now, what the weather will do for the next day or two, if the tavern is going to be worth a visit later, etc). This is also the time where 'Pivotal Events' are predicted. Pivotal Events are the moments where fate has the potential to shift, either by repairing or weakening (usually one or the other, based on the outcome of the event). The individual/s receiving these predictions will have an elemental tie to the event itself, or the place it will take place in. If it's on the sea, a water seer will know of it's coming, a mountaintop battle will be seen by earth and air seers alike, etc.

When fate is waning, a practised practitioner can manipulate their element in real time to a lesser extent (improving irrigation systems to make them work through dry periods, turning clay to soil over the course of a few months, giving favourable sailing conditions in bad or calm seas, etc). The Pivotal Events predicted will still be felt by those in touch with a relevant element but no new events will be seen, and the results of current Pivotal Events will be clouded (misinterpretation will be far more common).

As such, Elves tend to become recluse and often nomadic at times of waning fate, considering carefully, and at great length, the events taking place around them. They will listen to things in the wind, water, earth and trees, and try to prepare themselves for Pivotal Events. When fate is waxing, they will become more active, sending envoys to key people, trying actively to prepare the world for it's next state of waning fate.

More to come, sorry about the long absence Wombat, many things on my mind and in RL! Shall check in on this project more frequently though :D

I like the idea of the elves living patterns changing based on what Forcipital Season (working name...thoughts?) it is. That could also be echoed with the dragons and luck, too, only in opposite. When luck is in power, they wander, when it isn't they stay in their self ascribed areas.

I agree that elves will be very busy trying to archive pivital predictions for the waning times. Basically like saving up food for winter. Seasons of fate are like Spring, summer, and Harvest all rolled up into one for predictions and prophesy. This way you have books passed down describing events...and this is an enticing development.

I appreciate you going along with my idea of predictions tieing to the element in some way, and perhaps the only way to get a complete prophesy to a pivital event is by all four elements working together.

What is your opinion on my two determinations of fate?

EDIT: I'm leaning toward the first one.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-02-22, 01:30 PM

Alright! Some forward movement. Kind of.

SO I've decided to go with option one:

Fate is the events that need to occur to prevent natural disaster and maintain the balance of the forces that help make the world function. Therefore, fixed points in time that are predicted are events that must happen so that the world does not begin to decline. If one is not fulfilled, then the fixed points shift to what now must be in order to put things back into place. Kind of like a cosmic check and balance.

I choose this one because I feel like the idea is more original. However, it causes more issues that need to be resolved...and I may need to rethink how fixed points work in that description, or 'pivotal events' as Veklim calls them. I may need help on that...

Rules -

1. Because the way the forces of this world works, Fate, Magic and Luck fluxuate between which force is dominant. These fluxuations are slow, but can be influenced by worldly events.

2. Elemental power is not affected as dramatically as the powers of prediction are when fate is in it's diminished state.

3. Predictions are made through the elements the elves control, as well as in dreams.

4. Inheriently, elves have keen intuition and are often extreamly curious. They use their elemental knowledge to aid in being scholars, teachers, scientists, so on.

Ideas that may or may not become cannon - (thoughts?)

1. Veklim mentioned this and I've been considering it too - Predicted events are in some way tied to the element the elf is attuned to. Therefore, not every elf can have a full range of prediction. If this were the case, then if all four kinds of elemental powers go together, they could make a singular prediction that wasn't lacking.

2. Fate Weight (Degrees of Destiny) - All predictions are classified in degrees:
----------1. Event
----------2. Detail
----------3. Identity
----------4. Place
----------5. Time
One cannot get to the next degree until attaining the degrees before it. Predictions could then be classified as weaker or stronger depending on how much information is attained. With this, there could possibly be a 4th form of measurment for a being (Fate Weight) to measure how influential that person will be in the flow of time. This would interact with the degrees in some way.

3. I had an idea that the closer it is to a fated event, the clearer or less clear it becomes. Not sure which.

Problems/Questions that need answered -

1. Is a prediction stronger when made in the place the prediction will occur at?

2. Are there certain hot sites for predictions? - IE: a volcano for Ember Elves.

3. What are the consequences for predictions?

4. What is the limit to predictions? I don't want it so ALL elves can know EVERYthing ALL the time. Possible limits: Length of time it takes to make a prediction? Details? Multiple possibilities?

5. What are predictions like? First person? Third person? Impressions? Riddles?

6. Thoughts on the implication that Fate doesn't predict some things to keep from interupting the event?

7. Does Fate heal itself over time, or does it require the Elves to heal it? Both? How would one heal Fate to begin with?

8. What ill effects are cause by not fulfilling prophesy? How active do the elves become to influence events? Or do they just clean up afterwards?

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-02-28, 02:55 PM

New stuff in the OP. Big things happening. What do you folks think??

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-04-11, 06:32 PM

Immediate Fate - Elemental and Physical Abilities
(A Brainstorm)

Alright, so I'm going to type up a bunch of what I have, and hopefully get some response on it from the people I've requested to help me brainstorm, and more. Here it goes.

"As painters - men well taught by wisdom in the practice of their art - when they take in their hands pigments of various colors, and after fitting them in close combination - more of some, and less of others - they produce shapes from them resembling all things."
~ Empedocles
http://i48.tinypic.com/34sldvr.jpg

Physics Term

Water

Wind

Fire

Earth

Matter

Liquid

Gas

Plasma

Solid

Weather

x

x

-

-

Tectonics

-

-

x

x

Thermodynamics

x

-

x

-

Friction

-

x

-

x

Gravity

x

-

-

x

Buoyancy

-

x

x

-

Light

-

x

x

-

Reflect/Refract

x

-

-

x

Magnetism

-

x

-

x

Electromagnetism

-

x

x

-

Things that apply to all four elements: Density, Gravity, Kinetic (motion and resting), Pressure (pressure and vacuum), Conservation of mass, Conservation of energy

Things that are NOT elements/Do not have to do with Fate: Living things such as plants, animals, healing/killing by interacting directly with a living creature's body.

It should be understood that fire, water, wind and earth are not truly the elements themselves but rather are strong representatives of these forces. They are nonetheless still strongly analogous of the elemental forces and embody the spirit of the elements as closely as physically possible on this plane of existence. Thus if one wishes to study water magic, then learning about the physical element of water is essential to become more strongly tied to the element. In otherwords, each representation of each element is the root aspect to begin study, but does not make up the entirety of the element. This also explains why there are some exceptions to the rule - some liquids are not attuned to the water element, just as not all solids are earth.

-

Fate and the elements cannot predict anything outside of the planet. Light is only able to be influenced once it enters the atmosphere. Because of this, light is negative fate because the world's natural state was darkness before the sun provides light on it. Darkness then would be positive fate.

-

You cannot create energy or mass from nothing. The conservation laws still apply.

-

Time supersedes all all forces. There are some things we just cannot do. You can try to change time but all you will end up doing is breaking your hour glass. You may be able to change the path you will walk, but never the path you have. Your power over fate depends first on you accepting that some things must happen, whether this is in your best interests or not.

-

Things I'm working on and need help with:
* Uses in each element, and the manipulations of Physical laws such as friction, weather, inertia, so on. Throw out your ideas, even if they were in PM's previously.
* Things to add to those above.
* Development of Elemental Abilities based on above information.
* Questions about system - in the OP, or in this post - ask away! The more I explain, the better I'll know the system, and the better my write up will be. Ideas, critiques, and assistance for.
* The biggest thing - Elven Society: I orginially planned on having Elves to be tribal, like native american-esque. In this there are several different types of same element peoples - ember elves that live underground, Fire elves that live in the desert, fire elves that live near the equator, so on. Water in a river, or the ocean or whatever. So basically, nationalities of Elves that are defined by the physical characteristics related to regions, elemental abilities, and such. Tribes would be good at certain things, and be disadvantaged or advantaged by their elements. This would be fine if Elemental power was genetic. However.

I recently had this idea - suppose elves attuned to an element of their own choosing. Their own calling. Then you'd have different nationalities attuning to different elements, and there would be a lot more melting pot atmosphere, with smaller settlements that were separate, centering around specified to certain elemental attunements. In this I picture large settlements where elemental users would be working together despite being of different elemental attunements, with temples for each element at "hot spots" of each element.

So does anyone like one more than the other, or have any ideas after reading these? Or research or examples of real life examples of these (without elements of course)?

Veklim

2013-04-11, 07:29 PM

OK, brief entry for now, more coming later!

Firstly, I think Earth should correspond with down and Air with up. Kinda seems like you just missed that on the graph, but it's conspicuous by it's absence.

Secondly, on the subject of the Elves, I envisioned them as living in mixed groups, with the balance in society being dependant on the geographical region. All tribes have all four elements amongst them, but those in the desert would favour the earth and fire for leadership and likely birthrates, whereas those on the coast would favour air and water, etc. I believe every elder council should be made of 4 elves, one of each element, and led by the seer of whichever element is considered the 'prime element' for the settlement.

I'm really glad you're pushing effort into this, as a setting it's promising awesomeness, and I'm looking at it more and more with an eye to creating an entire new system for this to be played in tabletop! More on that (much) later methinks. For now, keep it up Wombat :smallbiggrin:

More coming, in the likely form of a rant :smallwink:

Silverbit

2013-04-11, 08:06 PM

Looks like an interesting idea. Maybe you could go the Dune route, and have attempted precognition by very powerful fate changers (whatever elven wizards are called) actually define the event it's trying to predict irrevocably.
An example: Paul the incredibly powerful elf is trying to see what type of sandwich he's going to eat next. He detects a 30% chance of bacon, and a 70% chance of cheese. However, due to his immense fate warping powers, he unconsciously becomes an agent of fate, and takes (unbeknownst to himself) steps to ensure his next sandwich is cheese.
This effect may never influence any hypothetical players, but it might be a good thing to have whirring away in the background.

Also, perhaps have, as a side effect of fateomancy, very rapid return to the previous state after the effect has passed. Paul the elf just reduced the force of a large gust of wind; he loses concentration for a moment, and it's back to its former strength. Perhaps have this effect increased for more powerful fate warpers? (They can concentrate for longer, but when they stop things snap back faster than a less fate attuned individual's magic.)

Hope you find this rambling useful.

Frathe

2013-04-11, 09:13 PM

I like the idea of elves choosing the element they attune to. It presents more storytelling opportunities then just "elemental races."

You seem to be using the name "ember elves" now. I think I prefer the simplicity of "fire elves".

I really have to question having fire be a negative element, and water be a positive one. Fire is clearly positive--in fact, it's the most positive element, radiating heat and light as it does. Yes, it can also be destructive, but that's true of any power. And water seems more negative, considering that it's associated with things like ice. ADDED: Oh wait, you're having light be negative fate and darkness be positive. Good luck with that then. People are going to be confused, I'm just saying. Everyone expects the other way around.

"Thermals" seem odd as an element, and gems seem like they should be closer to earth, not to fire. Maybe switch them and magma.

Salbazier

2013-04-11, 11:11 PM

Ok, stuffs that immediately come to mind:

-Negative Gravity should be Buoyancy (or some other better term).

-Electromagnetic should be just Electricity, since you already have Light and Magnetism covered by separate source.

-Why there is Reflect/refract and why it is water + earth? I don't think it is necessary since 'Light' can already cover how light behaves.

-Similiarly, why there is density?

Chilingsworth

2013-04-12, 12:19 AM

Ok, let's see...

possible elemental-physical interactions:

Earth: interacts with objects strongly through friction and gravity.

Water: interacts with objects moderately through friction and gravity. However, produces buoyancy ("negative gravity") on objects in contact with it.

Air: interacts weakly with objects through friction and gravity.

Fire: produces anti-friction and anti-gravity. Also tends to disintegrate objects when it its purest form. Primitive flying machines might exist based on the use of impure fire. Also, flying magic is probably a combination of air and fire principles. Spells like Haste are likely fire magic. Disintegrate is likely a fire spell of utmost purity.

SamBurke

2013-04-12, 09:37 AM

I really have to question having fire be a negative element, and water be a positive one. Fire is clearly positive--in fact, it's the most positive element, radiating heat and light as it does. Yes, it can also be destructive, but that's true of any power. And water seems more negative, considering that it's associated with things like ice. ADDED: Oh wait, you're having light be negative fate and darkness be positive. Good luck with that then. People are going to be confused, I'm just saying. Everyone expects the other way around.

"Thermals" seem odd as an element, and gems seem like they should be closer to earth, not to fire. Maybe switch them and magma.

Water is usually a symbol of cleansing, healing, drinking, refreshing, etc. Thus, positive makes a lot of sense. Almost everything water does is inherently beautiful, even ice.

Fire, on the other hand, is both beautiful and deadly. Even in its simplest incarnation, say, a torch, it's only your Reflex Save away from burns. A glass of water has no similar danger. (You "could" drown in a bathtub or something I guess, but it's still less common and less dangerous than fire). Especially considering what ELEMENTALISTS can do with it, Fire ends up being used a lot to destroy, I'd guess.

As to "dark", I'd guess that Wombat is going for the idea that Darkness is natural. Energy must be expended to gain light, which means that it is the opposite of what is "normal." Scientifically, I support that. It does also offer a cool (if, I agree, a *tiny* bit confusing) aesthetic. Perhaps you can use it as an example of Positive/Negative Fate?
Postive and Negative fates are not about what is "good" or "bad" as perceived by any race. Instead, it is about what is "natural" for the world. Take darkness and light, for example. While it would seem that darkness is "negative", it is the natural state of the world: only by exerting energy (and Fire) can you gain light, meaning that Light is "Negative." Not negative in the sense of being bad, but negative in the sense of being farther away from the state of nature.

I definitely agree with the idea of tribes and choice. Would there be Sub-Domains, for lack of a better word? IE, someone focusing on Fire's Heat, using Thermals and quick geyser-bursts of air to jump around, or to warm their enemies up or get someone's blood pumping, or so on. This as opposed to using Fire's Flame.

Still, it reminds me of the Native American system: you go out into the wilderness, take some hallucinogenics (or just do random stuff), gain insight into who you are, come back a "new Person" with a new task. Then again, in simplistic societies, each family does everything. Tribes like the Lakota don't have a "trade" system, and in many cases don't have a single "Chief" as such.

So what level of civilization exists in Aldain? Correspondingly, how widespread is what technology? Europe had machine guns at the same time Afganistan got flintlock rifles. So are there different parts of the world that are at different technological levels?

The easiest way to figure that out is to place down where each piece of technology was invented, then plot out how (and thus when) it would get traded or given to another area.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-04-12, 12:27 PM

Great Googly Moogly! Thank you all for responding! Mega post incoming!

OK, brief entry for now, more coming later!

Firstly, I think Earth should correspond with down and Air with up. Kinda seems like you just missed that on the graph, but it's conspicuous by it's absence.

Gravity is down, Buoyancy is up. It's more than just earth and air, its all elements. Cold sinks and heat rises. Water is weighed down, fire burns up.

Secondly, on the subject of the Elves, I envisioned them as living in mixed groups, with the balance in society being dependant on the geographical region. All tribes have all four elements amongst them, but those in the desert would favour the earth and fire for leadership and likely birthrates, whereas those on the coast would favour air and water, etc. I believe every elder council should be made of 4 elves, one of each element, and led by the seer of whichever element is considered the 'prime element' for the settlement. I like the favouring elements depending on regional location, though I'm not exactly sure how it would effect birth rates. :smallconfused: I like the idea of a council representing each element, but it might be more complicated than that in the long run. Might have ultimate leadership be something of the sort, but local government be less all accounting. Just because two people are of the same element, does not mean that they will agree or be similar, after all.

I'm really glad you're pushing effort into this, as a setting it's promising awesomeness, and I'm looking at it more and more with an eye to creating an entire new system for this to be played in tabletop! More on that (much) later methinks. For now, keep it up Wombat :smallbiggrin:

More coming, in the likely form of a rant :smallwink:

I'm glad you're glad! I am as well! It's exciting to have breakthroughs. I've been doing a lot of research and discussion, and I figure it was time to put it all in the crucible and see what comes out. I would absolutely LOVE to make this a system one day. But first, we have to finish all three forces! Emphasis on much later, methinks. :smallwink: But I look forward to working with you on it then! As for your inclimate rant - I look forward to it! Always something I enjoy reading (even if I don't always go the same direction! :smallwink::smallredface:)

Looks like an interesting idea. Maybe you could go the Dune route, and have attempted precognition by very powerful fate changers (whatever elven wizards are called) actually define the event it's trying to predict irrevocably.
An example: Paul the incredibly powerful elf is trying to see what type of sandwich he's going to eat next. He detects a 30% chance of bacon, and a 70% chance of cheese. However, due to his immense fate warping powers, he unconsciously becomes an agent of fate, and takes (unbeknownst to himself) steps to ensure his next sandwich is cheese.
This effect may never influence any hypothetical players, but it might be a good thing to have whirring away in the background.

Still working on Ultimate Fate - which is the farther reaching side of this system that deals with predicting things. Fate predicts things that will happen, and then you can change events toward or away from these happenings. Some predictions can be warnings of what will happen, others can be goals to work toward. Still, steering fate isn't as easy or defined as "good predictions" or "bad predictions". Predictions generally gravitate toward either Positive or Negative sides of the spectrum (meaning water elves and fire elves only see one respectively). Air and Earth can see a little of each, though gravitate toward the side they lean to more. The predicted events and occurances are things that guide the world toward Positive Fate or Negative Fate. The trick is - the world needs to be balanced in this. Naturally, it shifts like tide. The elves are tasked with trying to make these shifts as smooth for the planet as possible. In basic terms, too much of either positive or negative is bad. A balance is good.

At least, I think that's how this is turning out to be. Let me know if I've severely confused you. Subject to change based on response and workability.

Also, perhaps have, as a side effect of fateomancy, very rapid return to the previous state after the effect has passed. Paul the elf just reduced the force of a large gust of wind; he loses concentration for a moment, and it's back to its former strength. Perhaps have this effect increased for more powerful fate warpers? (They can concentrate for longer, but when they stop things snap back faster than a less fate attuned individual's magic.)

Hope you find this rambling useful.

I like this idea...but I need to explore it more. I see this as a rush for equilibrium - I hold back water, eventually it needs to reach equilibrium again. This means a surge to restore balance, and perhaps could also account for the ripples in fate when someone changes something.

I like the idea of elves choosing the element they attune to. It presents more storytelling opportunities then just "elemental races." I like this idea too. It's just a harder version. Which isn't necessarily bad! But that just means more to do and write up. :smallsmile: The trick is, how far does this go? And should I limit someone to one element if they can choose one to attune to? I'd like to say no, but I don't have a good reason...I guess its more the entities that make up each element don't like it, but....eh. Needs more. Ideas?

You seem to be using the name "ember elves" now. I think I prefer the simplicity of "fire elves".

Changed back. :smallbiggrin: Just an attempt at alternative names. I liked the alliteration, so I tried it.

I really have to question having fire be a negative element, and water be a positive one. Fire is clearly positive--in fact, it's the most positive element, radiating heat and light as it does. Yes, it can also be destructive, but that's true of any power. And water seems more negative, considering that it's associated with things like ice. ADDED: Oh wait, you're having light be negative fate and darkness be positive. Good luck with that then. People are going to be confused, I'm just saying. Everyone expects the other way around.

Water is usually a symbol of cleansing, healing, drinking, refreshing, etc. Thus, positive makes a lot of sense. Almost everything water does is inherently beautiful, even ice.

Fire, on the other hand, is both beautiful and deadly. Even in its simplest incarnation, say, a torch, it's only your Reflex Save away from burns. A glass of water has no similar danger. (You "could" drown in a bathtub or something I guess, but it's still less common and less dangerous than fire). Especially considering what ELEMENTALISTS can do with it, Fire ends up being used a lot to destroy, I'd guess.

As to "dark", I'd guess that Wombat is going for the idea that Darkness is natural. Energy must be expended to gain light, which means that it is the opposite of what is "normal." Scientifically, I support that. It does also offer a cool (if, I agree, a *tiny* bit confusing) aesthetic. Perhaps you can use it as an example of Positive/Negative Fate?

Postive and Negative fates are not about what is "good" or "bad" as perceived by any race. Instead, it is about what is "natural" for the world. Take darkness and light, for example. While it would seem that darkness is "negative", it is the natural state of the world: only by exerting energy (and Fire) can you gain light, meaning that Light is "Negative." Not negative in the sense of being bad, but negative in the sense of being farther away from the state of nature.

I've really tried to come up with better names for either side of things. Natural and Unnatural were things I was considering changing them to, but I feel that might not have the right connotations either. View Positive and Negative Fate as two terms for a state of existance, not a morality. Remember, this is "science". Positive and Negative refer to polarity, electrons, charges, and its now extended to represent the two halves of a reaction: Motion or Resting, Hot or Cold, Light and Dark, so on. This needed to be done to show that Ultimate Fate is just a long term version of Immediate Fate, and to better address how the elements interact. I'll likely have to write a similar explaination.

Sam is correct in how I interpreted darkness and light, and while it might be confusing...if I explain it fully like I did here, I think it could work. Sorry for not going into that more than I did, and hope my explaination helped. Let me know what you think.

"Thermals" seem odd as an element, and gems seem like they should be closer to earth, not to fire. Maybe switch them and magma.

I reorganized the list a bit, see what you think. It should be noted that the smaller text is what results from combinations of the elements, not actual elements themselves. I had 3 reactions in each category but that one, and thought that might be a good 3rd for fire/air. Got any other suggestions instead of thermals? Also, you were good to call me on the ordering of magma and gems...I honestly just threw all the terms in list form on there, but now it looks better as it looks like a progression now. Good call.

Ok, stuffs that immediately come to mind:

-Negative Gravity should be Buoyancy (or some other better term).

-Electromagnetic should be just Electricity, since you already have Light and Magnetism covered by separate source.

-Why there is Reflect/refract and why it is water + earth? I don't think it is necessary since 'Light' can already cover how light behaves.

-Similiarly, why there is density?

Changed negative gravity to Buoyancy, that term fits well now that I've looked up its details. Good call.

Electromagnetic goes into more than just normal magnetics or electricity do overall, so I made it its own for reference sake.

Water reflects and refracts light, but doesn't generate it. As does metal, which is earth. Since these two elements don't make light of their own, but interact with it, so I wanted to note it for the system.

Density is a physics term I felt like it would be good to add, and since heat and cold interact with density in terms of heating and cooling, I figured it might be good to put it on. However, since all elements deal with density in some respect, I think I'll just put it in the all encompassing area; changing now. [/quote]

Ok, let's see...

possible elemental-physical interactions:

Earth: interacts with objects strongly through friction and gravity.

Water: interacts with objects moderately through friction and gravity. However, produces buoyancy ("negative gravity") on objects in contact with it.

Air: interacts weakly with objects through friction and gravity.

Fire: produces anti-friction and anti-gravity. Also tends to disintegrate objects when it its purest form. Primitive flying machines might exist based on the use of impure fire. Also, flying magic is probably a combination of air and fire principles. Spells like Haste are likely fire magic. Disintegrate is likely a fire spell of utmost purity.

Hmm. I'm looking more for specific instances, such as- Swinging faster by removing friction in the air, effecting the light around someone to create darkness and so on.

I definitely agree with the idea of tribes and choice. Would there be Sub-Domains, for lack of a better word? IE, someone focusing on Fire's Heat, using Thermals and quick geyser-bursts of air to jump around, or to warm their enemies up or get someone's blood pumping, or so on. This as opposed to using Fire's Flame.

There would be specialties within the element that certain elves would excell at. Concentrations. Prestiges. Priorities. After enough time and advancement, an elf can take on more than one of these, often ones that compliment the other. I'll need to think up different uses for each ability to advance farther there, like we were doing with elemental powers, but to consider that along with these reaction listed up there...its going to get bigger. MUCH bigger. :smallcool:

Still, it reminds me of the Native American system: you go out into the wilderness, take some hallucinogenics (or just do random stuff), gain insight into who you are, come back a "new Person" with a new task. Then again, in simplistic societies, each family does everything. Tribes like the Lakota don't have a "trade" system, and in many cases don't have a single "Chief" as such.

I'm not sure about that particular fluff...spiritual enlightenment might work, but I think its also going to be like monestary like. Going to a place to gain insight on your element. Train in its use, as well as techniques. Doing everyday tasks without the element so you can understand how it normal functions. So on. In terms of closed communities, monestaries for certain elements, or settlements that are sole based on one element, might be able to take on similar features of self sustaining. Though, certain things they'd still likely be lacking, or have to do by hand without elemental aid (if it isn't their element). Perhaps these monestaries could have traveling elemental teachers of different elements to aid in harmonizing elements and knowing what the others are and how they work.

So what level of civilization exists in Aldain? Correspondingly, how widespread is what technology? Europe had machine guns at the same time Afganistan got flintlock rifles. So are there different parts of the world that are at different technological levels?

Such a huge question...let me see if I can answer it well. Aldain has different levels of technology depending on where you are. I put it at 15th-ish century. Dwarves have discovered blasting powder, elves have lacored bows, steel has been developed (but isn't perfected, or easy to make). Humans have the same tech level as elves, since they came out of elves, but have advanced in some ways where elves have stayed the same, to account for the fact that humans do not have elemental powers. There are no guns. Some areas are low tech or lower, dragons have less tools since they have natural weapons, and often have evolved into their needs rather than advance, but they have some advances in things. That whole subject with dragons is on a larger and much different topic. But overall, consider civilization to be similar in some continents (as races have expanded). Ocean bound ships exist, complex machinery doesn't for the most part. Some groups of elves and humans have been separated for a very long time and have developed seperately from other elves, so seperate racial nations exist. Others are seperate based on territory, or spliting power over time, or geographic seperation such as oceans, or various other conditions. Hmmm...how did I do?

The easiest way to figure that out is to place down where each piece of technology was invented, then plot out how (and thus when) it would get traded or given to another area.

That's a good point. I have some idea as to some pieces of tech, but overall it might be good to make a list of them and figure it out. I might need help with that list...just thinking of everything I might miss!

SamBurke

2013-04-15, 02:17 PM

There would be specialties within the element that certain elves would excell at. Concentrations. Prestiges. Priorities. After enough time and advancement, an elf can take on more than one of these, often ones that compliment the other. I'll need to think up different uses for each ability to advance farther there, like we were doing with elemental powers, but to consider that along with these reaction listed up there...its going to get bigger. MUCH bigger. :smallcool:
Oh, I take that as a challenge, good friend. Which one would you like to work out first? Because the more specific a challenge is, the more I can deal with it. So I could think of more for Fire if I was given, say, 4 aspects of it you wanted to be Prestiges as opposed to just the totality.

I'm not sure about that particular fluff...spiritual enlightenment might work, but I think its also going to be like monestary like. Going to a place to gain insight on your element. Train in its use, as well as techniques. Doing everyday tasks without the element so you can understand how it normal functions. So on. In terms of closed communities, monestaries for certain elements, or settlements that are sole based on one element, might be able to take on similar features of self sustaining. Though, certain things they'd still likely be lacking, or have to do by hand without elemental aid (if it isn't their element). Perhaps these monestaries could have traveling elemental teachers of different elements to aid in harmonizing elements and knowing what the others are and how they work.
I figured you wouldn't want that fluff, but I do like your idea.

I can imagine massive ceremonies, where they place dozens of various practictioners into elaborately designed mosaics of magic, pointing in specific directions to mark solstices, times, seasons, important temples of that element, and things like that, all in order to properly align themselves. Make a perfect balance of elements within their own hearts.

MMMMM. Would each monastery be 1 element, with several monasteries alongside, or one big one with various "sections" or "houses" of the elements/prestiges?

Such a huge question...let me see if I can answer it well. Aldain has different levels of technology depending on where you are. I put it at 15th-ish century. Dwarves have discovered blasting powder, elves have lacored bows, steel has been developed (but isn't perfected, or easy to make). Humans have the same tech level as elves, since they came out of elves, but have advanced in some ways where elves have stayed the same, to account for the fact that humans do not have elemental powers. There are no guns. Some areas are low tech or lower, dragons have less tools since they have natural weapons, and often have evolved into their needs rather than advance, but they have some advances in things. That whole subject with dragons is on a larger and much different topic. But overall, consider civilization to be similar in some continents (as races have expanded). Ocean bound ships exist, complex machinery doesn't for the most part. Some groups of elves and humans have been separated for a very long time and have developed seperately from other elves, so seperate racial nations exist. Others are seperate based on territory, or spliting power over time, or geographic seperation such as oceans, or various other conditions. Hmmm...how did I do?
No joke. That IS a huge question. I think that the tech level sounds good, as elementalists can compete pretty well with everything else, whereas it would be harder for them to do so if there were guns and maglev trains and all, Eberron style.

So are there any nations (or groups of nations) which are much higher advanced, holding back with their knowledge (Europe, China in the 12th century, etc, etc)?

Other questions:
-State Funded Science/Arcana/Elementalism/Fatebending? Does it exist?
-Public View of Science, Magic, Forces, and Elements?
-Are there competing schools of thought about the Elements in general? I presume there are in specific. Perhaps people argue about whether Bouyancy can be ascribed to anything other than Water, considering it is the test of it, or whether Earth Element can include Plants, since they live in it, but can't be affected, etc, etc, etc.
-Also, a 5-page paper on every single person in existence in Aldain. Just because these questions are too easy, right? :smallbiggrin:

That's a good point. I have some idea as to some pieces of tech, but overall it might be good to make a list of them and figure it out. I might need help with that list...just thinking of everything I might miss!
OK. Well, I recommend looking through this list of Renaissance Tech. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_technology).

This wiki portal to the entire History of Tech (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_technology) might also help. Questions I would ask, when looking to figure out your world:

-Which of these exist?
-Who can use them?
-How hard/expensive/restricted is their production and use?
-Restricted by who and what? (Hostile Forces, Government, Production, Expense, Magical Requirement, Necessity for Magical/Rare Mundane Materials, etc, etc, etc)
-Who has the INCENTIVE to use, develop, improve, and invent these sorts of things? (Races, companies, governments, labs, mages, countries, etc)
-What are the societal views of important objects, and the things as a whole? Take for example this apocryphal story of the cannon:
The original cannon was large, and quite slow. So slow, that it was considered good work to load, fire, and clean a cannon three times in a 12 hour period.

One Italian or German man, however, assembled a crack team (They were called the C Team, presumably in reference to either the TV Show starring Mr. T, or to Cannons) of loaders, and managed to make FOUR shots in a day.

The pope promptly called all of them to Rome, and had them exorcised for demon possession, because, "clearly", no human could fire that many shots in a single day.
-What competition is there? From old-timers? (Think Paul Bunyan's epic log-cutting match against the Chainsaw and Train) From governments? (Scared of rebellions, w/ peasants getting power) From Mages or Elementalists or other Races? (Scared of being pushed out, marginalized, or, again, certain groups getting more power than they.

Things like this should help.

Burkeout.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-04-15, 04:30 PM

Oh, I take that as a challenge, good friend. Which one would you like to work out first? Because the more specific a challenge is, the more I can deal with it. So I could think of more for Fire if I was given, say, 4 aspects of it you wanted to be Prestiges as opposed to just the totality.

Sure, lets start with Fire. (pulls out notes)

Fire -

Heat object
Evaporate Water
Boil
Cook
Forge
Create Glass
Start Fire

Flame Manipulation
Fire Balls
Fire Wall
Ray of Fire

Lightning
Light
??

More ideas welcome, and subsets of that could be added and so on.

I figured you wouldn't want that fluff, but I do like your idea.

I can imagine massive ceremonies, where they place dozens of various practictioners into elaborately designed mosaics of magic, pointing in specific directions to mark solstices, times, seasons, important temples of that element, and things like that, all in order to properly align themselves. Make a perfect balance of elements within their own hearts.

MMMMM. Would each monastery be 1 element, with several monasteries alongside, or one big one with various "sections" or "houses" of the elements/prestiges?

Well, I imagine the monasteries would be at hot sites for each element. So 1 element, with traveling teachers for the other elements a guests. That's a good point, I want to tie in the seasons, but I'm not sure how. I don't want it to really affect powers at all, I just want the elves to have a basic knowledge of the way the seasons come and act upon Aldain and such.

Technology related questions

I'm going to differ that to private conversation for now, as its entirely different topic of conversation. While some things I already know, and others I know will influence the elves and possibly fate, for now lets just use fate to influence history instead of the other way around, hm? :smallwink:

SamBurke

2013-04-15, 05:09 PM

Sure, lets start with Fire. (pulls out notes)

Fire -

Heat object
Evaporate Water
Boil
Cook
Forge
Create Glass
Start Fire

Flame Manipulation
Fire Balls
Fire Wall
Ray of Fire

Lightning
Light
??

Let's start with heat.
Melt Object.
Weld/Forge Object
Create Open Flame
"Sweat" A Disease out of someone (Sweat Lodge Cure, used by indians)
Cause someone to faint (Heatstroke)
Create or crack glass
Get rid of bacteria (Boil Water, Boil an object removes germs and disease from it, sterilizing it. Great for medicinal and surgical uses!)
Heat the air to create thermals (This is what Hot Air Balloons do!), perhaps can be channeled with a parachute/balloon?
Fatigue those in armor
Heat up atoms, making them move faster, making the target move faster
Insta-cook food, perhaps even as it's on a living creature?
Perhaps used for torture or something creepy?
Harden Object or wood (Ancient technique for making wooden spears really sharp, and hard, would be to stick them in various fires)
Calling down Lightning

Electrical Charge (For device? Could bring technological change)
Stun someone
Blinding Flash
Move targets away from area (who wants to be hit by lightning, right?)
Static Electricity, making something harder to move without friction
Create Electro-magnetism

Bind two metal objects together
Attract metal from far away.
Set a piece of metal to BE attracted for a brief period (swords more accurate, arrows attracted to the back of a plate of armor pierce better, etc, etc)
Reflect Metal objects
Create a field of electro-magnetism, which suspends items or, could be focused on to hold them up.

There are probably more for Heat, but that gives you the idea.

Well, I imagine the monasteries would be at hot sites for each element. So 1 element, with traveling teachers for the other elements a guests. That's a good point, I want to tie in the seasons, but I'm not sure how. I don't want it to really affect powers at all, I just want the elves to have a basic knowledge of the way the seasons come and act upon Aldain and such. I wonder how much money you could make on the Teaching Circuit, there... :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, though, I do like the idea of traveling teachers and ceremonies for the seasons and all that.

I'm going to differ that to private conversation for now, as its entirely different topic of conversation. While some things I already know, and others I know will influence the elves and possibly fate, for now lets just use fate to influence history instead of the other way around, hm? :smallwink:
Fair enough!

Chilingsworth

2013-04-15, 08:33 PM

Looks like Fire is pretty well covered.

How about earth?

Mineral Manipulation:

Create/improve gemstones
Find mineral deposits

Other:

increase an object's (or even a person's!) weight, slowng them down.
Move earth
Stone and earthwork construction
Work a delayed weight-increasing enchantment into ammunition, set to trigger just before it hits, making it hurt more.

SamBurke

2013-04-16, 10:31 AM

Work a delayed weight-increasing enchantment into ammunition, set to trigger just before it hits, making it hurt more.

Now THAT is creative... MMM...

Perhaps Earth would be about changing the Atomic Weight of things, as well? Even a minor change in Atomic Weight could give a massive increase in the density of an object.

I'll put up Flame Manipulation later today, maybe tomorrow.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-04-16, 05:42 PM

Here's what we'll work with from now on for lists:

Fire -

Heating
Evaporate
Cook
Sterilize
Heat Other Element
Crack Solids
Harden
Melt
Boil
Forge/Weld
Create Glass
Make Air Hotter

Start/Create Fire

Flame Manipulation
Fire Balls
Fire Wall
Ray of Fire

Lightning
Electrical Manipulation
Blinding Flash
Shock
Intimidation

Light
??

Earth -
Earth Changing
Fertile soil
Stone to sand
sand to stone

Earth Manipulation
Movement of Earth
Shaking Earth
Shaping Earth

Movement with Earth
Pushing with Rock
Move through Earth
Boosting vertically

Friction
Metal
Weight - Increase
Delayed wieght gain

??

Water -

Cool/Slow Particles/Increase Density
Freeze Water
Snow
Ice

Walk on Water
Slow Flow

Water Manipulation
Water Balls
Water Wall
Water Lash
Water Purification
Remove Water

Cloud Summoning
Darkness
Volume
??

Air -
Sound
Alarm
Whistle
Carry Sound
Sound Dampening

Air Manipulation
Gusts/Pushing
Blow Out Fire
Fill Sails
Change Flow of Wind
Push things away

Suction/Pulling
Pull things Toward

Air Bubble
Cyclone
Improve Aim
Flight

Friction
Improve Speed

Light
Buoyancy - Decrease Wieght
??

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-04-18, 11:16 AM

Please note: You cannot affect the water within a living creature, the wieght of a living creature, the material a creature is made out of, the heat of a creature internally, suck the breath out of a creature, or any action internally involving a living thing. You can only affect the environment around a living thing. This includes plants, animals, insects, so on.

So! What do you folks think of the elemental capabilities listed last post? Any ideas for more? I ask because someone might suggest a better wording for something, or propose a different "general" ability that I missed, or something. Not to mention some things might be common sense locations for me, but one of you might think it would be better in another place, or even both places, but achieved different ways. Any thoughts?

SamBurke

2013-04-18, 11:30 AM

So! What do you folks think of the elemental capabilities listed last post? Any ideas for more? I ask because someone might suggest a better wording for something, or propose a different "general" ability that I missed, or something. Not to mention some things might be common sense locations for me, but one of you might think it would be better in another place, or even both places, but achieved different ways. Any thoughts?

Well, you managed to nail pretty much all that I was thinking for water and earth, especially considering you can't affect a creature. I mean, it is REALLY hard to get around that...

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-04-18, 11:39 AM

However! You can affect the water around someone, or the clothes they are wearing, the equipment the possess. The air around them they might breathe in. Push them with wind, earth, water, throw fire at them.

SamBurke

2013-04-18, 01:02 PM

Oooooh! I really like the addition of the Radicals of Fate. It makes a lot of sense, and looks great.

The addition of "The Calm" makes me wonder about philosophy in Aldain... is it possible to see more about that sometime soonish?

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-04-18, 01:16 PM

Changelog - Updated Positive and Negative Fate in the OP. Now they are part of "The Radicals of Fate". Explains it better and such. Anyone have any thoughts on it?

(edit: Haha, aside from Sam the ninja) :smallbiggrin:

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-04-29, 08:08 AM

Welcome back Giant in the Playground! A new thing for you folks to chew on...what do you think?

Interactions of Elements - weak versus strong

Earth smothers Fire
Water extinguishes Fire
Wind extinguishes Fire
-
Earth impedes Wind
Water impedes Wind
Fire consumes Wind
-
Earth absorbs/impedes Water
Wind blows Water
Fire evaporates Water
-
Water erodes Earth
Wind erodes Earth
Fire breaks down Earth

One would notice this list shows that all elements affect each other by beating each of the elements in some way, or by also in turn being beaten by them. Thusly, no element is truly superior to another. The winning result of an interaction is dependent on which element is more strongly represented. For example, in one interaction between Fire and Water, Fire could be represented in more capacity than Water, thus causing Water to boil and evaporate. On the other hand, there could be more Water in the interaction, causing the Fire to be extinguished.

SamBurke

2013-04-29, 11:18 AM

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-04-29, 11:26 AM

As important, or perhaps more important than quantity, is location or type. For example, if you contain the water, it will be effected by a small quantity of fire. If you limit the wind, it can't erode earth. And so on.

How is that described or included in the science of fate?

Can you go into your question a little bit more? I think what you mean is how does that work for like, a pot of water you can boil, or something containing something else, but I want to be sure.

DracoDei

2013-05-05, 01:59 PM

Wind and Earth are more neutral, although they gravitate more toward one radical or the other.

This sentence is unclear. Does this mean that they each have a mild overall alignment, or rather that they aren't often in balance between positive and negative at any particular point in space and time?

The descriptions of the individual elements could use a paragraph of complete sentences, or at least you need such a paragraph before the listings of the elements explaining what we are looking at. This may be a case of "It is clear in my head, but every time I try to write it down I get garbage, so it is on hold for now", which is fine, as long as it is on the 'to do' list.

EDIT: Do you need me to go through the bulleted lists right now, or should that wait until you have explained how the lists work more explicitly so I can avoid assumptions?

EDIT^2: Despite my understanding from your PMs that this is a large project, the actual description seems pretty short so far. I understand that it is probably going to grow into something very lengthy, but I am not seeing reserved posts, or even very long ones before the discussion starts up. Am I supposed to be joining the pre-existing coversation, or just giving my thoughts on what you actually have listed out?

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-05-06, 07:32 AM

This sentence is unclear. Does this mean that they each have a mild overall alignment, or rather that they aren't often in balance between positive and negative at any particular point in space and time?

Basically, it shows that each of these elements exist on their own, but often act like the paired element is. Water is positive, as earth generally gravitates toward. Fire is negative, and wind often acts similarly to Fire. Perhaps that can be clearer, but honestly, I'm currently questioning why I don't have 2 positives and 2 negatives and call it a day. :smallbiggrin: Hrm.

The descriptions of the individual elements could use a paragraph of complete sentences, or at least you need such a paragraph before the listings of the elements explaining what we are looking at. This may be a case of "It is clear in my head, but every time I try to write it down I get garbage, so it is on hold for now", which is fine, as long as it is on the 'to do' list.

Right you are, I'm sort of at a loss as to how to explain them. I was hoping the bulleted lists would help me, but they really haven't. They are on the to-do list, and hopefully I'll be able to think up something soon. Any suggestions?

EDIT: Do you need me to go through the bulleted lists right now, or should that wait until you have explained how the lists work more explicitly so I can avoid assumptions?

Going through the bulleted lists might help a lot. Do they make sense? Do you see anything that doesn't belong? Is there something I might have missed? I'm eventually going to set up these lists into a description for the element.

EDIT^2: Despite my understanding from your PMs that this is a large project, the actual description seems pretty short so far. I understand that it is probably going to grow into something very lengthy, but I am not seeing reserved posts, or even very long ones before the discussion starts up. Am I supposed to be joining the pre-existing coversation, or just giving my thoughts on what you actually have listed out?

Well, it's all going to be on one post. If you check out my magic thread, you'll see a prime example of a big project that only needs one post. This when finished will be ported to the magic thread so there's that. It is indeed going to grow...unfortunatly its a work in progress that I'm looking for fresh ideas on. Post 24 on is the current discussion. Anything before that is mostly on an older post that got replaced with the current one. If you'd like to read that and join in I wouldn't say no. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on what I have, and what isn't clear like you had said. I think a lot of my problem right now is I don't know if I'm explaining the system well enough at the moment. Since you are new to the project, telling me what isn't clear and what you don't understand, or gather but haven't been told explicitly is invaluble to me, even telling me what IS clear is helpful. Does that make sense?

Morph Bark

2013-05-06, 04:25 PM

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-05-06, 04:32 PM

I just read through the bit about the elves, and something made me wonder... are there races besides elves? How do those races deal with the elements? It could be that for elves one's element is their own choice, whereas for a second race (humans perhaps even), element is something they are born with. Undoubtedly this would also influence their view on Fate, regardless of how Fate actually works, or perhaps it actually changes how Fate works for them.

Hopefully not making things more/too complex here. :smalltongue: I'm a little better with the human side of things than the purely physical aspects.

Fate exists for everyone, but only the elves can manipulate it. Basically, Elves are the arbiters of Fate, and have a more hands on role entrusted to them by the Force of Fate itself. The other two legs of the stool of existence are similar, Magic with the Ancients, and Luck with the Dragons. However, I'm sure other races would have significant view differences on fate, and may not even see elemental control as part of fate, the way we in the real world don't.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-05-07, 08:05 AM

Changelog - I have very rough descriptions of what each element entails in very basic terms. I'll likely put more in there but it's a start. As a note it's REALLY difficult to describe what fire is or water is and so on, without getting too sciency. Any suggestions I will gladly take. :smallcool:

(also did some minor editing and added a few sentances.)

DracoDei

2013-05-08, 02:43 PM

Computer lagging horribly, typos result, too frustrating to fix.

Haven't read preceeding discussion. Just commenting on actual description in posts 1 and 24.

Wht to the arrows and words in the MIDDLE of the diagram mean precisely? What are Dust and sSteam in words?

Why is the diagram swirled?> to show the weaker aligned elements?

Basically, it shows that each of these elements exist on their own, but often act like the paired element is. Water is positive, as earth generally gravitates toward. Fire is negative, and wind often acts similarly to Fire. Perhaps that can be clearer, but honestly, I'm currently questioning why I don't have 2 positives and 2 negatives and call it a day. :smallbiggrin: Hrm.
I think that having 2 strongly aligned and two weakly is good. More variety/definition.

Right you are, I'm sort of at a loss as to how to explain them. I was hoping the bulleted lists would help me, but they really haven't. They are on the to-do list, and hopefully I'll be able to think up something soon. Any suggestions?

Going through the bulleted lists might help a lot. Do they make sense? Do you see anything that doesn't belong? Is there something I might have missed? I'm eventually going to set up these lists into a description for the element.

Well, it's all going to be on one post. If you check out my magic thread, you'll see a prime example of a big project that only needs one post. This when finished will be ported to the magic thread so there's that. It is indeed going to grow...unfortunatly its a work in progress that I'm looking for fresh ideas on. Post 24 on is the current discussion. Anything before that is mostly on an older post that got replaced with the current one. If you'd like to read that and join in I wouldn't say no. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on what I have, and what isn't clear like you had said. I think a lot of my problem right now is I don't know if I'm explaining the system well enough at the moment. Since you are new to the project, telling me what isn't clear and what you don't understand, or gather but haven't been told explicitly is invaluble to me, even telling me what IS clear is helpful. Does that make sense?[/QUOTE]
Four element systems are very... fuzzy to me. You can define them however you want. Thgat being said, I can probably look at your lists and see how consistant you seem to be being. I do have an engineering degree...

How would an earth aspect elf manipulate Fate differently from an Air Aspect Elf? Would it just be using sand swirls instead of smoke for their divination device? Would it effect what they can see, and how they can manipulate it? IS there even manipulation, or does FAte Magic just mean you can see better, and thus make mundane choices better to alter what happens?

How free are Elves about sharing prophecy? Does every ruler of every race have multiple elvish oracles working for them? Does it depending on how friendly they are with elves in general, or are traitors to their race/tribe reasonably common, just in it for the money or power, or whatever?

Changelog - I have very rough descriptions of what each element entails in very basic terms. I'll likely put more in there but it's a start. As a note it's REALLY difficult to describe what fire is or water is and so on, without getting too sciency. Any suggestions I will gladly take. :smallcool:

(also did some minor editing and added a few sentances.)
Sciency is fine actually for a STARTING place. As long as it wouldn't lock you into it too much?

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-05-14, 11:16 AM

Sorry for the long delay! I tried writing this response 2 (make that three now) other seperate times only to have the page reset on me due to an error. It was quite infuriating.

Wht to the arrows and words in the MIDDLE of the diagram mean precisely? What are Dust and sSteam in words?

Why is the diagram swirled?> to show the weaker aligned elements?

Dust and Steam are manufactured by the interactions of the two elements across the circle from each other. So the interaction between fire and water would be steam, earth and wind is dust. The arrows are to reinforce that that is the case.

As for the swirled black and white, it was to illustrate visually how positive and negative radicals might look in reference to the elements. In other words, yes, to show where the alignments both weak and strong are.

I think that having 2 strongly aligned and two weakly is good. More variety/definition.

An excellent point, thank you.

Four element systems are very... fuzzy to me. You can define them however you want. Thgat being said, I can probably look at your lists and see how consistant you seem to be being. I do have an engineering degree...

Hm? As in that they're easy to work with? Or that to you they're a topic you don't really understand?

How would an earth aspect elf manipulate Fate differently from an Air Aspect Elf? Would it just be using sand swirls instead of smoke for their divination device? Would it effect what they can see, and how they can manipulate it? IS there even manipulation, or does FAte Magic just mean you can see better, and thus make mundane choices better to alter what happens?

Power over Fate exists in two ways. Immediate Fate is control over the elements. Ultimate Fate is predicting the future. Each is centered around the element that an elf is attuned to. So for fire elves, they might see the future in the embers of a fire, or in the flames. Water elves might see the future in a pool. Most predictions have something to do with the element the elf is attuned to, though the exact connection is often vague or not clear. An elf can attempt to manipulate the future through the use of Immediate Fate, not Ultimate. However, results for these attempts can vary. One could successfully subvert a prediction, or one could CAUSE it.

How free are Elves about sharing prophecy? Does every ruler of every race have multiple elvish oracles working for them? Does it depending on how friendly they are with elves in general, or are traitors to their race/tribe reasonably common, just in it for the money or power, or whatever?

Elves are very secretive about their predictions for the most part. I'd say there would be some elves that might have been exiled who could use their talents toward such things as assisting royalty, but for the most part the race has decided not to make their predictions free knowledge. Some races might give offerings or make treaties (or other diplomatic navigations) in exchange for certain predictions. Ultimate Fate only can occur when the Force of Fate is in power, so elves have Libraries that are dedicated to documenting predictions no matter how vauge, small, or arbitrary. They basically try and stock up for the seasons fate is not in power similar to saving up the harvest for the winter. Some humans might try to masquerade as an elf to make money off of their own predictions, which would be true only be chance as humans have no power over Fate.

Sciency is fine actually for a STARTING place. As long as it wouldn't lock you into it too much?

True, but I mean I'm trying to avoid lots of real world terms, especially if they are named after a person from our world. Science itself is what I'm trying to reverse engineer into the different elements, in a similar way to how the classical elements might have, but I'm certainly not mirroring the classical elements, only using them to influence this new system which takes into account things that the greeks did not, like the periodic table. I'm also working on atoms, which is proving difficult. Thinking that they could be the building blocks of fate. Which I guess to some degree means that Elves use quantum abilities, since they are able to move these atoms depending on thier state. But I can't really phrase it all like that, if you see what I mean? Especially since my audience might not know everything about physics, quantum mechanics and atoms. So simplifying it while also complicating it is my current headache. :smallwink:

DracoDei

2013-05-14, 11:26 AM

I meant that Based on the Four Classic Elements" in and of itself, tells me very little, because there are so many different ways to interprit it. Thus it is confusing and unclear.

Allergies make it hard for me to say more at the moment.

I recommend saving stuff in a text file, or at least the copy/paste buffer before attempting to post a long post.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-05-15, 12:57 PM

Alright folks! So now that I'm getting organized in the system, I wanted to figure out specifically how using the elements works. What I mean is how exactly do the elves manipulate the elements?

I've been thinking, and looking at examples of using things, and I'm leaning more toward a physical system where an elf would need to touch the object they were manipulating. In this case, they'd be using a portion of their energy to act upon something and cause the intended reaction.

Another idea could be they effect things telepathically, and manipulate it without contact, but by line of sight, or by a specific range. In this case, things that might be harmful such as acid or lava wouldn't affect a user. Then again, I could just make these immunities in certain users or such.

There's probably more options, but that's all I could think of.

Either way, I want the intent of the user should be factored in, as well as the knowledge of the affect to ensure that affect is the result.

SamBurke

2013-05-15, 02:39 PM

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-05-16, 07:45 AM

Well, telepathy would be EPICALLY COOL, which is, IMO, reason enough. But, it should definitely be a high-level ability. Something that you have to work for.

Plus, touching and bending objects by contact is pretty dang awesome anyway.

How hard would they be concentrating? Would they be visualizing, or perhaps using somatic enhancement or something?

Hm. I was thinking using one or the other...hadn't considered using both.

They'd be concentrating on the subject they'd be manipulating, so devoted to the task. It might be hard to have a conversation and do a challenging task, but simple actions with Immediate Fate don't need a lot of concentration I'd say...

SamBurke

2013-05-16, 10:39 AM

What would you rate as a "simple" action? Something that Prestidigitation might cover?

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-05-16, 12:53 PM

What would you rate as a "simple" action? Something that Prestidigitation might cover?

Perhaps. Or things like a small burst of air, and splash of water, a movement of earth, or an ignition of fire. Not complicated things like reducing friction, or heating something and so on.

DracoDei

2013-05-16, 03:13 PM

My sinuses are full of mucus, and my brain is full of ***k. Otherwise I would be commenting on this more.

DracoDei

2013-05-18, 03:21 PM

Ok, keeping in mind I have basically ONLY read the two posts where you lay everything out, plus your most recent post...

What is it about touch range that appeals to you?

What sort of a feel are you going for with this setting? Or, to put it another way perhaps: Why are you creating this thing in the first place? What is your goal/motivation? Without that I can't tell you a think about how to fulfill it. I could lay out my own goals, but if YOU don't have a drive then this is going nowhere in the long run, I can almost guarantee you. I know *I* am not inspired enough by this that a comprehensive vision you could adopt occurs to me.

EDIT: Ok, so maybe I could help you with classifying things scientifically, but you seemed to want to stay away from that so... yeah, I need to know what your core goal is. Note that "core" does not mean "briefly stated" necessarily.

Veklim

2013-05-18, 06:38 PM

Personally I saw the Elves as conversing with their element to do complex things with it. Immediate Fate manipulation should be telepathic and at a reasonable distance, certainly, thematically AND mechanically there is no other sensible choice, but to extend their manipulation to larger effects they should have to 'coerce' the element.

Let me explain my thoughts... What they're doing is making the element function in a manner unusual, exaggerated or even normally impossible for it to do so, and this should require a certain amount of convincing on behalf of the Elf to make the element behave this way. This could involve a physical touch, waving of hands or odd little material components or foci, but regardless of any individual Elf's preference (since that's what I these things being) there should be a vocal portion. Whether this is in any particular language, or more specifically a secret Elven tongue or the elemental language for their element (if you should so choose to use them...I probably would...) or just noises appropriate to the element (a susurrous for air, a roaring for fire, flowing lyrical syllables for water or bass tones for earth perhaps) is entirely up to you. Regardless of the sounds, these should be a form of direct communication with the element, whereby the talent an Elf has for conversing with his or her element is directly proportional to the magnitude of their control over it.

Draco, I believe Wombat's main intention is to put together a world, piece by piece, to be used for a novel he is wanting to write, feel free to correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick Wombat...! However, I should probably mention I'm EXTREMELY interested in attempting to create a workable D20 system for the magic, luck and fate components, and the resultant classes/racial templates.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-05-20, 08:32 AM

What is it about touch range that appeals to you?

I guess I'm thinking about conservation of energy and such, in that this elemental control is not spontaneous. The energy that is being used is being taken from the elf using it. I saw physically touching the element as physically touching something, and channeling the energy into the object. It would sort of be like extending yourself into that element so that it becomes an extension of you to do with what you want. At least that was my initial idea. So I leaned toward it because I had a better grasp on how it worked. With telepathic, it felt similar to Magic, which is telepathic, though in a vastly different way. Because they ARE in some ways different, I left it as an option, and asked what others thought.

What sort of a feel are you going for with this setting? Or, to put it another way perhaps: Why are you creating this thing in the first place? What is your goal/motivation? Without that I can't tell you a think about how to fulfill it. I could lay out my own goals, but if YOU don't have a drive then this is going nowhere in the long run, I can almost guarantee you. I know *I* am not inspired enough by this that a comprehensive vision you could adopt occurs to me.

Draco, I believe Wombat's main intention is to put together a world, piece by piece, to be used for a novel he is wanting to write, feel free to correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick Wombat...! However, I should probably mention I'm EXTREMELY interested in attempting to create a workable D20 system for the magic, luck and fate components, and the resultant classes/racial templates.

I'll go to answering your alternate way of asking the question, DracoDei. For over half my life (13+ years), I have been working on this setting in some way shape or form. It all started as an idea for a novel (which has evolved into a series), and after a year or so of writing and constant writers blocks, I realized my biggest issue I didn't know my world enough, and so was having a hard time talking about it. So, I decided I'd take a year off from writing plot to actively develop my world.

So I did that...and the more I developed the more I needed to develop, until one year became...well, I'm still working on my world. The difference now is I'm kind of writing both now. In that time I went through high school and college, and used most of what I learned in my studies to assist me in writing this setting. In fact, pretty much anytime I learn something new, my first thought is: How can I fit this into my world? Basically, this world is a very theraputic way for me to retain information, as well as translate things into my own way of thinking, and then put that information into my own project to make it richer. To say that I'm dedicated to this project would be an understatement. I've used this world for D & D, short stories, my novel, and writing poetry.

After having written centuries of history, languages, star charts, geographic patterns and maps, evolutional patterns, cultural intracasies, racial features, and various other portions of the world - I found these forums. And I saw the opportunity to find like minded creative types that might be able to help me in figuring out some of the larger details of the setting that I was missing. Most importantly, Magic. I had my ideas for what I wanted, but I wanted to set it up into a system that made sense, and fit well. And so I joined the forums, and with the help of a few people, I not only "finished" my magic system, but also came to the realization of two other systems that would be attached to to it - Fate and Luck.

And like other portions of world development, when I fully realize one of these aspects, they are large enough that they ripple back in small and large ways into my world development. Magic I'd pretty much thought the most about when developing the setting, so it didn't have as big of a ripple, but Fate has taken a much larger effect. Mostly because instead of just an elemental system, its also identifying things in the scientific realm (which in my schooling I'd not learned as much about, having mostly studied astronomy and geology).

My goal at the moment: To finish the three forces that make up the world - Fate, Luck, and Magic. These three things affect everything in such a way that if I know them and how they work, I will be in essence, done the largest portion of work that needed to be completed. With Fate that means figuring out Physical Science into my setting, and with Luck it will be based on Biology and Evolution - living things. Once these are finished, I can begin writing. Especially since these forces are effecting plot, and some of my developed information. My secondary goal once finished is to begin making these three systems into a D20 system, but I want the concept to be done before I conclude that.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: Ok, so maybe I could help you with classifying things scientifically, but you seemed to want to stay away from that so... yeah, I need to know what your core goal is. Note that "core" does not mean "briefly stated" necessarily.

Alright, so lets try this a new way then. Classifying things scientifically first might be a better way to go about it, and then figuring out what I'd want to rename and what I don't after wards. I think my initial hessitation had to do with the fact that I'm not as well versed in things like Physics, but at this point I'm seeing it as an opportunity to become more knowledged. :smallsmile: Especially if I have others that have ideas or advice into how things might factor out.

Personally I saw the Elves as conversing with their element to do complex things with it. Immediate Fate manipulation should be telepathic and at a reasonable distance, certainly, thematically AND mechanically there is no other sensible choice, but to extend their manipulation to larger effects they should have to 'coerce' the element.

That's a good point. The original explaination is that the elements themselves are trusting the elves with the power to manipulate them. So this would make a lot of sense. With so many ideas and things flying around, I sometime lose sight of some of the facts. I'll hold more response till the end of your thoughts...

Let me explain my thoughts... What they're doing is making the element function in a manner unusual, exaggerated or even normally impossible for it to do so, and this should require a certain amount of convincing on behalf of the Elf to make the element behave this way. This could involve a physical touch, waving of hands or odd little material components or foci, but regardless of any individual Elf's preference (since that's what I see these things being) there should be a vocal portion. Whether this is in any particular language, or more specifically a secret Elven tongue or the elemental language for their element (if you should so choose to use them...I probably would...) or just noises appropriate to the element (a susurrous for air, a roaring for fire, flowing lyrical syllables for water or bass tones for earth perhaps) is entirely up to you. Regardless of the sounds, these should be a form of direct communication with the element, whereby the talent an Elf has for conversing with his or her element is directly proportional to the magnitude of their control over it.

This leads me to thinking that I could very well do both Physically touching and eventually, as an elf gains power, they learn how to manipulate the element from afar. So basically an amalgomation. This also would work well in a broad span, because I see Magic as entirely telepathic, and Luck as entirely Physical in touch, so Fate can be a little of both. Material components would be especially prevalent for this system, as due to conservation of mass, these elements are not being created, only manipulated.

As for your vocal portion, the elves already have dialects attributed to their elements in my lore, so that would fit nicely. Especially since my culture has been changing for them since this system began developing so that they weren't tribal any more, and now I'm considering much more the overall concept of an elf deciding what element they attune to. This would be a good place to put that language in it's stead.

SamBurke

2013-05-20, 02:26 PM

Hm... perhaps the languages should feel very different. Compare, say, English (very blocky, but powerful) to Romance Languages (Flowy) to Germanic tongues (Harsh, rasping), to Chinese, and you have a good couple of candidates for Fire/Air/Stone/Water.

Frathe

2013-05-20, 03:39 PM

SamBurke

2013-05-20, 03:57 PM

Uhh.. English is Germanic.

Well, yes. Technically. But they SOUND very different when spoken.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-05-20, 09:38 PM

Chill folks, I have elven languages mostly done already. It's mainly greek influenced.

Edit: Though I do appreciate the suggestions, Sam. I actually have a language thread on the forums. It was the first one I ever started here. :smallwink:

Veklim

2013-05-21, 02:21 PM

English is a rather odd mongrel amongst european languages, having romantic, germanic, scandanavian and celtic influences...it doesn't exactly fit any single criteria since it borrows from so many. It's also distinctly unblocky and grammatically fluid in a way most other languages are not, and you must remember, 50 years ago the average Brit had more words in their WORKING vocabulary than the French had in their entire officially recognised language...

However, on the principle of languages sounding like their element, I am in complete agreement!

DracoDei

2013-05-21, 02:35 PM

Ok, what it sounds like to me is that you don't have very many stylistic goals with how you want fate to work... except that bit about covering physical laws, which I should be able to help you with in theory, having gotten the degree I did. Unfortunately, my allergies continue. I'll look at your lists and see what I can come up with (remind me if I forget for more than a few days). Should I be focusing on post #29 or whatever it is for the lists , or are the ones post #1 still current?

One thing that "touch range" doesn't cover is how large and oddly shaped of an area you can manipulate and how much difference there can be between different parts of an area.

Let's say I want to put out a torch that someone 20' away is holding, but without giving myself away as the caster (assuming no verbal components for now) by making the candles between me and them flicker, and with as little energy wasted as possible.

Can I say "Well I am touching a 1 inch diameter, 20 foot long cylinder, ending in a 2 foot diameter sphere of air between myself and the torch(the sphere surrounding the torch), so I am just going to rapidly circulate the air in that sphere to blow it out. Without disturbing the air in the cylindrical part very much."?

Or ditto, but with a 6 inch sphere and completely stilling the air in the sphere so the torch runs out of oxygen?

This would make air and earth the best ranged effectors usually.

If so, then let's take this a bit further.

Let's say I am an elderly elvish archmage who uses the element of water ONLY, on a ship noticeably bigger than a viking long-boat. I'm sleeping in my posh passenger's cot, when then captain wakes me up and tells me that a horribly bad storm (once every 100 years level, or someone conjured it up with magic) has blown up, and I have to calm the waters or we are going to be capsized. I stumble my creaky bones up to the deck. I look around at the tempest. I can stop it, but I need to be in contact with the waters to do it, and the waves are below my reach over the railing.

Can I just throw a soaking wet cotton rope over the side and use the water that pervades the rope as my link to the waves?

Do I need to get the crew to lower me over the side until my feet get hit by the crests of the larger waves?

As above, but low enough that I remain in continuous contact with the water through-out the initial casting or even maintenance of the spell?

Can I use the torrential rain as my link, or does the fact that I can't trace a continuous path cause a problem?

What about the film of water on the wet hull?

What if I don't feel like going up on the deck to fix this "incompetent" captain's "mistake"? Can I get the ships carpenter to drill a tiny hole in the hull, just below the waterline, and stick my pinkie in to plug it? What if I just touch the stream of water as it runs into a bucket?

Of course, for fire-seers this sort of manipulation gets REALLY "fun". They either need an object that counts as part of their body to touch the fire with, very quick hands to wave through a cool part of the flame, innate resistance from the get-go, or a high pain threshhold to stick their elbow into the bonfire they are going to cause to lash out and immolate an attacker from head to toe.

Frathe

2013-05-21, 04:12 PM

English is a rather odd mongrel amongst european languagesOf course, there's no reason to only compare it to only European languages. Other languages also borrow comparably--such as Japanese, which has sources as diverse as Portuguese pão (bread) (Japanese パン pan) and pseudo-English borrowings like "salaryman" (サラリーマン, sararīman), as well as many borrowings from Chinese written in kanji.

Okay, I'll stop talking about languages now. Just want to point out that there's absolutely no reason to only base things on European languages and culture.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-05-22, 11:55 AM

For those of you that would like to assist, advise, or are curious on the topic of language in my world, you can go here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244159) to discuss, comment, or observe!

(and Frathe, I do indeed agree that Euro-centric language influences is undesired. I want a rich and broad spectrum of influences, though sometimes some of the European languages are easier to learn than say, Haitian.)

Now onto responses!

Those who are interested, below is an in depth analysis of how Elemental Manipulation might work, so you might want to read this and weigh in. I'd certainly appreciate it.

Draco, these were great questions that helped me figure out how explain how things might work.

Ok, what it sounds like to me is that you don't have very many stylistic goals with how you want fate to work... except that bit about covering physical laws, which I should be able to help you with in theory, having gotten the degree I did. Unfortunately, my allergies continue. I'll look at your lists and see what I can come up with (remind me if I forget for more than a few days). Should I be focusing on post #29 or whatever it is for the lists , or are the ones post #1 still current?

Post #1 I try to keep up-to-date, but there is some content I haven't fit into it yet, either because I'm not sure where to place it, I want to have it filled out a little more before I place it, or I'm not sure how to word it. I've posted various amounts of information in responses to other people, or just posted along the way. For example, Post 43 details the interactions of the elements with each other.

Stylistically, I'm trying to keep the powers in check so that the elves aren't overpowered. My goal for Fate is to create a balanced system for the elves to use that has a progression of some sort, as well as a system that explains the natural physics of the world (and the connections between the two). I know I wanted to have the elves have a culture that is influenced by Ancient Japanese culture a bit, but I really have most of that line of thought up in the air until I figure out how exactly their elemental control works, and how they use it. Any and all the details I've gathered for the elves during my history writing I've set aside until then, so that I can engineer it toward the system after its done.

One thing that "touch range" doesn't cover is how large and oddly shaped of an area you can manipulate and how much difference there can be between different parts of an area.

Original thoughts on this for me were that the older and more experienced an elf gets, the more the control the element gives to the elf. Though, I thought of the fire elves being an exception to this, where they start with a ton of power, and lost it as they aged (similar to how we as humans start off at our peak abilities at the first, and then as we age get weaker and weaker), where as the water elves started off with little power.

That aside, I'm thinking that the more power an elemental user had, the farther they could reach away from them. If that were the case, one could consider that at first it would be touch based, but as they grew in power, their will extended beyond their body to seem more like a telepathic thing. Then they would either be limited by sight, or perhaps they could even sense the element or some such. If we go the connection route, then they can only reach through the element to a certain distance. If not, it would still be a distance thing, but perhaps not dependant on a connection from you to the element. Maybe a combination of the senses and the element. One could perhaps imagine a fire elf having "heat vision".

Let's say I want to put out a torch that someone 20' away is holding, but without giving myself away as the caster (assuming no verbal components for now) by making the candles between me and them flicker, and with as little energy wasted as possible.

Can I say "Well I am touching a 1 inch diameter, 20 foot long cylinder, ending in a 2 foot diameter sphere of air between myself and the torch(the sphere surrounding the torch), so I am just going to rapidly circulate the air in that sphere to blow it out. Without disturbing the air in the cylindrical part very much."?

Or ditto, but with a 6 inch sphere and completely stilling the air in the sphere so the torch runs out of oxygen?

Alright, so in this circumstance, we have wind verses fire. The task: put out fire with air. Lets consider this through my farther reaching as you get older/more powerful. To blow out the torch, you will need to have a greater gust of wind than the power of the fire of the torch. If I was a weak user, this could be a gust of wind started by the user and sent down the corridor. Once it left the area of the users influence, it can no longer be influenced. Think of it like loosing a bow from an arrow. You can aim it, shoot it at higher or lower speeds, but once you loose it (or in this case once the blast leaves your range of elemental ability) it acts naturally. So for an arrow, it would continue while being affected by gravity and air friction until it hit something that stops its path, or falls to the ground. For the blast, a similar thing would occur (with obvious differences).

If I was stronger, I might be able to reach out my will to the area around the object and manipulate the air specifically there. That could be in a smaller gust (not as obvious as the blast down the corridor) directly on the object (since it doesn't need a strong blast to cover the distance), or it could pull the oxgen away from the area and push some other gas in so that it sputters out. I couldn't still the air to put it out however for two reasons.

Think of it like bailing water from a boat. When I scoop water out, other water from around it rushes in to that area. Gas does this same thing when contained, but it expands instead, so its even trickier.

Wind represents motion. To still the air, you'd actually be representing earth. You can't stop air with air - gas is loose - there isn't anything to keep it from flowing. I guess one could create a vaccuum to continually suck air away from a location, but you'd have to continually be exerting yourself to do so.
If I were a Water user, I might be able to cool the torch to remove the heat, and eliminate the fire that way.

This would make air and earth the best ranged effectors usually.

An interesting observation. This is truer in states of matter terms, but not as true in terms of their secondary features. Remember, Fire = Plasma and Heat, Earth = Solid and Still, Water = Liquid and Cool, and Wind = Gas and Motion. But earth and air are the most common elements, so your rule is true enough.

Let's say I am an elderly elvish archmage who uses the element of water ONLY, on a ship noticeably bigger than a viking long-boat. I'm sleeping in my posh passenger's cot, when then captain wakes me up and tells me that a horribly bad storm (once every 100 years level, or someone conjured it up with magic) has blown up, and I have to calm the waters or we are going to be capsized. I stumble my creaky bones up to the deck. I look around at the tempest. I can stop it, but I need to be in contact with the waters to do it, and the waves are below my reach over the railing.

Alright, so we have a few conditions here: elderly would dictate more powerful in the tentative version of the system I detail above. Also, ocean water is a more complicated liquid, so it may need more energy to manipulate. A comment on the "uses the element of water only" portion: I've been considering two thoughts about this.

I've been thinking for awhile that elves could only control one single element, which means to do something that required two elements, you'd need two elves working together for one task.

Or - Elves can manipulate more than one element, so long as they are not opposites. This means certain elemental combinations would be possible for one elf, but at the cost that they'd be weaker in both, while one who concentrated on one element would be stronger.

What do you think of these options? I could go either way, though one certainly allows more variety than the other, which could proove to be valuable.

Can I just throw a soaking wet cotton rope over the side and use the water that pervades the rope as my link to the waves?

Do I need to get the crew to lower me over the side until my feet get hit by the crests of the larger waves?

As above, but low enough that I remain in continuous contact with the water through-out the initial casting or even maintenance of the spell?

Can I use the torrential rain as my link, or does the fact that I can't trace a continuous path cause a problem?

What about the film of water on the wet hull?

I'd say best case scenario would be for you to be submerged in the water, so that you can effect it all around you. I'd say a dip might do it, but if a storm is actively battering the ship, it might be hard to just be dipped in at the feet only. An elf that was not so feeble might be able to jump into the water. You being this feeble might be in trouble to be gently lowered in. In any case, you need to constantly be in contact to the element if you want to continue to manipulate it.

A soaking wet rope to channel your power to the ocean might work (if we're going with the connection even at a distance idea), but your range would be measured by the distance of the rope and then whatever range you had left would be your range of effect.

Rain is not enough of a connection to use, unless we go with the theory where you can at some point manipulate the element without direct contact. If you don't, you could perhaps pull the rain to a general flow from you to the ocean water, but you wouldn't need to at that point because you could just manipulate the water with this theory, so long as it was close enough. I guess any rain that hit you you could use to make a sort of "water rope" in the contact based/connection system, and be similar to the cotton rope idea.

The film of the water on the hull might work in a contact based system as well.

What if I don't feel like going up on the deck to fix this "incompetent" captain's "mistake"? Can I get the ships carpenter to drill a tiny hole in the hull, just below the waterline, and stick my pinkie in to plug it? What if I just touch the stream of water as it runs into a bucket? The problem with this is that you can't see in any sensory way what it is you are doing. I guess we could have a "6th Sense" for your element, where you can sense your element despite not being able to sense it with your normal senses. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to tell where the water was or where it stopped. You'd have the connection, but only be able to plug the hole or pull the water into the ship. In other words, ultimately - I'm not sure about this. I think this is more dependant on the ultimate decision on how elemental control functions. Connection or Range based.

SamBurke

2013-05-22, 02:44 PM

Well, I'd like to go back to the rule of COOL on this, because it seems like there are a lot of cool things to do that are just sort of not possible, because of the distance requirements. I do think it would be thematically interesting to dip someone into the water.

I like the idea that every caster has a set amount of area they can influence. You could either use that to get *TO* the target, or use it to influence as much as possible.

But, shouldn't there be visual manifestations? Dweomer-like?

DracoDei

2013-05-22, 03:00 PM

Ok, it SOUNDS like "trace a path" is not an important mechanic, but I'm not 100% sure on that. I think I at least inspired some thought?

To me, this doesn't sound like a situation in which "rule of cool" should ITSELF be a game mechanic, but the strict rules should still be selected to create a cool world.

Interesting that stilling air is one of the "this is not possible" effects. That sort of thing adds an interesting dynamic.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-05-22, 03:16 PM

Ok, it SOUNDS like "trace a path" is not an important mechanic, but I'm not 100% sure on that. I think I at least inspired some thought?

You did indeed inspire some thought! Now I just need to decide which details would be the best options...Which options do you like?

Trace a path....that's the connection based one, as I refer it as?

Well, I'd like to go back to the rule of COOL on this, because it seems like there are a lot of cool things to do that are just sort of not possible, because of the distance requirements. I do think it would be thematically interesting to dip someone into the water.

I like the idea that every caster has a set amount of area they can influence. You could either use that to get *TO* the target, or use it to influence as much as possible.

To me, this doesn't sound like a situation in which "rule of cool" should ITSELF be a game mechanic, but the strict rules should still be selected to create a cool world.

Interesting that stilling air is one of the "this is not possible" effects. That sort of thing adds an interesting dynamic.

As DracoDei alludes, Rule of Cool isn't really what I'd like to do. I want my system to tell me what can happen, and what can't, not what would be cool and what wouldn't be. From a narrative point of view, I'd like the system to become cool by its devices, not be cool for cools sake. The area of effect idea is nice, but I need to figure out how I want them to detect it so I know how to incorporate the area, and its fluctuations based on power.

But, shouldn't there be visual manifestations? Dweomer-like? :smallconfused: What do you mean?

SamBurke

2013-05-22, 04:22 PM

For example, if you're trying to effect the waves, perhaps a misty tendril reaches out from your hands, grasping the waves and smoothing them out?

Or if you're trying to stop the fire, a blackness whorls around it, encasing it before falling away to nothing.

Just cool, spell-looking effects are what I was thinking.

Veklim

2013-05-22, 06:16 PM

As much as I appreciate the visual enrichment ideas I'd day aesthetics need to come AFTER mechanics, it's just much simpler that way!

I had a thought just now (main reason I'm posting) about the elemental system I'm developing for my World Warper (check sig), I explored a little through the general mechanics of single vs. multiple element control, and came to a similar conclusion to Wombat, you have a chosen element which is your strongest one, and you may use abilities from either of the other two non-opposed elements at a lesser effect. The choice as to whether you focus on JUST your element or spread your capabilities at the cost of power is an individual one, but if you channel air you will NEVER manipulate earth. This gives you some scope for large differences between different elves and their approaches, but it sets a limit in stone (so to speak...) which cannot be avoided.

On the topic of limits, I'm thinking a pair of fairly wide-reaching thoughts...
Thought, the first; everything in existence would appear, to a sufficiently powerful elf with some sort of 'elemental sense', as a kind of 4 peaked spectral analysis of the elements it comprises, and this leads me to think...
Thought, the second; you'd need a sort of potency scale for any individual source of said elements. For example, the fire of a match would scale as a 1, a small torch as 2, a campfire for 5 or so people could be anywhere between a 5 and a 10. A volcanic erruption would be off the scale, probably tens of thousands upwards... Regardless, if we had a universal scale for the potency/quantity of a particular element, then the ramifications and capabilities of anything we discuss further would have some relevance, and we could do away with some of the ambiguity.

The range question is as much a matter of story-friendly mechanics as it is about useful/cool application, and so perhaps that's what needs attention right now. You've got a lot of options open, and I think that's part of the issue, perhaps pull it down to one or two options for each element instead? Or make the choice of contact, proximity, line of sight, vocal, focus, etc as a choice each elf makes as they learn their power..? You could weave that through story AND mechanics too, having each approach to controlling/coercing the elements grant it's own sets of advantages and drawbacks. Perhaps that's too much just now, but it would further enrich the diverse number of methods and approaches any one elf may represent.

I had another consideration, in conjunction with the Japanese feel you are thinking about, concerning the use of taboos for elves, who I see more and more as culturally ancient and custom-heavy tribes who can be more offended by the colour of your shoes than in the recent (honourable) death of their own beloved son. I believe the main body of ideas for taboos could wait for now though, since I've rambled away at some length.... :smallredface:

DracoDei

2013-05-22, 06:25 PM

You did indeed inspire some thought! Now I just need to decide which details would be the best options...Which options do you like?
I like the idea of "tracing a path", but that is just me. You obviously don't like the idea of touching a stream of water in an intentional leak in the side of a ship to calm the waves outside, and want some sort of visual component to it.

Trace a path....that's the connection based one, as I refer it as?
The words "connection based" appear nowhere in this thread prior to the post I am quoting here. Thus I don't know what you are talking about.

By "trace a path" I meant that you have to touch an object to effect it... but when dealing with large volumes of fairly homogenous material, you get to define what subset of that larger volume you are going to effect. This would mean that

Air seers* can blow people away out to a certain range
Earth seers* can... trip people from far away?... but that requires the earth to MOVE which would seem to be as unnatural as air being still under your system... so let us instead say that they could make a large section of a castle wall as resistant to damage from siege engines as if it were composed of solid rock, rather than two layers of stone blocks mortared together and with loose rock in-between.

BUT

Water seers have trouble when standing on dry ground, although, depending on how you have things work, they might be able to replicate Avatar: The Last Airbender's "blood bending" at least if they can touch the blood from an open wound (or stab someone with a dagger made of Fate-chilled ice).
Fire seers* are the most limited in their resources for affecting their element.

*Using "seer" instead of "mage" since I don't want to get Fate confused with Magic, which you obviously defined somewhere else, and don't think it necessary that I read to discuss Fate).

None of the above applies to divination probably, if only to keep the question of "does it have to be continuous NOW or at the time I am looking at in the future (when looking into the future)" and then you get into questions of scrying on a bucket of water that you INTEND to put a drop of into the King's cup tommorrow so you WILL HAVE received a vision of if he is still alive after the assassination attempt you are considering making next week. I know you have discussed time paradox before, but that would just take things to ridiculous levels.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-05-23, 12:06 PM

Alright everyone! So three things!

First, I'm going to list some new unstated rules I have for my system that I/We will need to take into account.

Second, I'm going to list choices of options for ideas that have been proposed by you folk, or thought of by myself. This is for the sake of the conversation, and for moving forward. Ultimately, I know I'll be making the decision, but as of now I'm not sure of all the implications that might go with any one decision, so I'm looking for input on how you all might choose to set this up.

I'll do an A, B, or C method for each situation, where A is Option 1, B is Option 2, and C is Both. If you have a better idea, put it in as D. Make sure to list your reasons. If you don't feel like wieghing in on everything, no worries, just wiegh in on the ones you want. Thank you in advance!

Finally, I'll do spoilered individual responses to those posts above. Edit: Which are now actually down there. :smallwink:

Here we go...

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1. Rules

*All elemental powers should in the end all be balanced with each other.

*Elemental power is progressivly affected as they age.

*Intent of action is a main factor in effecting an element. How it relates to the other factors and what those other factors are are currently undetermined.

*Fire = Plasma and Heat, Earth = Solid and Still, Water = Liquid and Cool, and Wind = Gas and Motion.

When applying Coolness to something, it causes it to become more Still.
When applying Warmth to something, it causes it to have more Motion.
When applying Stillness to something, it becomes Cooler.
When applying Motion to something, it becomes Warmer.

*Elves are granted their elemental abilities by the elements themselves, and so can lose their power if the element so chooses.

*Elves cannot create the elements, only manipulate them. However, elements can be drawn to an elf, which might appear similiar to creation.

*Elves can choose which element they attune to, however there is generally a certain herditary tendancy.

*Making an element behave in a way it does not usually behave is applying negative fate to it.

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Options up for Debate:

1. Elemental Attunement
Option A: An elf can only attune to one element. To manipulate something with more than one element involved, one would have to work together with an elf of a different attunement.

Option B: An elf can choose to only attune to one element (like Option A), but also has the option to attune to another as well, but no more than two. An elf in this option could choose to have a balance between the two elements, or have one a stronger and more dominant element. The first element chosen is then the stonger of the two. Things to consider in this option is that some elements might not be able to be mutually attuned. Opposite elements, for instance, would not be possible.

Option C: Both! But with a twist! This would fluctuate based on when Fate was the force in power. When Fate is in power - Option B, when not, Option A.

2. Sensing an Element
Option A: An elf has a hieghted awareness to their attuned element based on the 5 senses. This would limit your abilities to what you can directly sense. This circumstance might explain why elves might have better hearing, sight, so on. In sight, a Wind attuned might actually be able to SEE air, unlike other beings, or perhaps Thermal Vision for the Fire attuned. The finite details can be discussed, but this gives a general idea.

Option B: Elves have a 6th sense where they know intutively where their attuned element is in location to themselves. This sensation would be granted upon attunement, and then refined over time.

Option C: Both! How? You tell me!

3. Interaction with an Element
Option A: Elves must physically touch the element they wish to manipulate. Over time they can affect larger things, or more areas of an element, so long as they are uninterupted. This would be the "Trace-a-Path" option DracoDei has been mentioning, or as I've called it "Connection" based. Energy used in this case would go out through the part of the body connected to the element.

Option B: Elves can manipulate the elements without contact so long as they can sense it. Over time, they can effect things at farther and farther distances, or to put it another way, by "Area of Effect". This is the "Telepathic" option SamBurke has mentioned. Energy used in this case would be expended by the action, but would not need a direct link to the result as with Option B. Projectiles that go outside an elf's area of effect can no longer be manipulated by the elf, similar to an arrow being shot from a bow.

Option C: Both! When elves are recently attuned, they only can interact with the element physically, and rely on connection to the area they are affecting through the element. Over time, as they become better attuned, they no longer need the physical connection, and are able to manipulate the element within a certain area. Even after the powers get to this point, an elf can still manipulate the object through physical touch.

4. Elemental Power Progression
Option A: As the elves get older, more knowledged and have more experience with the element they've attuned to, they gain more power over the element. This would occur in larger areas of effect, and in hieghtened capacity, and in the ability to create more complex manipulations.

Option B: Each element has a variant in how they progress: Power over Water is progressively gained as an elf ages, whereas power over Fire progressively lost, like a fire that burns out. Wind and Earth...I'm not certain.

Option C: Some other way I haven't considered...

3

EDIT: Sorry for the delay. Things got busy. But they're here now. :smallwink:

SamBurke:

For example, if you're trying to effect the waves, perhaps a misty tendril reaches out from your hands, grasping the waves and smoothing them out?

Or if you're trying to stop the fire, a blackness whorls around it, encasing it before falling away to nothing.

Just cool, spell-looking effects are what I was thinking.

Ah! Maaaaaaaaybe. I'll keep these things in mind while I'm considering the mechanics to manipulation. Maybe something will become evident during the process.

Veklim:

I had a thought just now (main reason I'm posting) about the elemental system I'm developing for my World Warper (check sig), I explored a little through the general mechanics of single vs. multiple element control, and came to a similar conclusion to Wombat, you have a chosen element which is your strongest one, and you may use abilities from either of the other two non-opposed elements at a lesser effect. The choice as to whether you focus on JUST your element or spread your capabilities at the cost of power is an individual one, but if you channel air you will NEVER manipulate earth. This gives you some scope for large differences between different elves and their approaches, but it sets a limit in stone (so to speak...) which cannot be avoided.

In terms of everything, I do like the idea of some elves being able to delve into more than one element, if for anything, for the sake of storm and lava users. It just screams awesome to me. I'm still hessitant to make it canon, which is why I've put it into the voting sequence. However, between you and me, I'm certainly leaning toward Option C for that. It solves my nagging question of how the fluctuations of the forces would effect immediate fate. I knew I wanted to do something, I just wasn't sure how. However, once the decision is made, I'd say there's still plenty of ironing out to do...

I read through World Warper, and I see what you mean...it's an interesting set up, that. I was hard pressed to find much on mixed element reactions, however.

On the topic of limits, I'm thinking a pair of fairly wide-reaching thoughts...
Thought, the first; everything in existence would appear, to a sufficiently powerful elf with some sort of 'elemental sense', as a kind of 4 peaked spectral analysis of the elements it comprises, and this leads me to think...
Thought, the second; you'd need a sort of potency scale for any individual source of said elements. For example, the fire of a match would scale as a 1, a small torch as 2, a campfire for 5 or so people could be anywhere between a 5 and a 10. A volcanic erruption would be off the scale, probably tens of thousands upwards... Regardless, if we had a universal scale for the potency/quantity of a particular element, then the ramifications and capabilities of anything we discuss further would have some relevance, and we could do away with some of the ambiguity.

Hm. This leads me to wonder how much of this information is learned through studies and how much of it is learned through power. And consequently, how does knowledge, age and power relate? I'll likely need to come up with some kind of principle. And perhaps the ability for an elf to stretch into the next power level at a cost to their health.

I like your potency scale. It reminds me of burning and melting points, and other things. Potency for Earth could be Hardness, Potency for Air could be density of the gas (Hydrogen being the least dense). We'll need to discuss this more thuroughly.

The range question is as much a matter of story-friendly mechanics as it is about useful/cool application, and so perhaps that's what needs attention right now. You've got a lot of options open, and I think that's part of the issue, perhaps pull it down to one or two options for each element instead? Or make the choice of contact, proximity, line of sight, vocal, focus, etc as a choice each elf makes as they learn their power..? You could weave that through story AND mechanics too, having each approach to controlling/coercing the elements grant it's own sets of advantages and drawbacks. Perhaps that's too much just now, but it would further enrich the diverse number of methods and approaches any one elf may represent.

I really don't want it to be "everything is unique to the user" but I may like "everything is unique to the element". The former just seems too broad for the system, though I do like the idea of having some diversity for each user. However, I don't believe that we need to make the mechanics diverse, when we can make the individual application of a user diverse, based on logical or creative methods.

I had another consideration, in conjunction with the Japanese feel you are thinking about, concerning the use of taboos for elves, who I see more and more as culturally ancient and custom-heavy tribes who can be more offended by the colour of your shoes than in the recent (honourable) death of their own beloved son. I believe the main body of ideas for taboos could wait for now though, since I've rambled away at some length.... :smallredface:

You could rant all day and I wouldn't get tired of it, just saying. :smallsmile: I certainly rant with the best of them. These taboos might be a good cultural thing to take into account, such passing down the control of an element within families for honor and pride. Even families that are purely one element and its dishonorable to taint the line with a second attunement.

DracoDei:

I like the idea of "tracing a path", but that is just me. You obviously don't like the idea of touching a stream of water in an intentional leak in the side of a ship to calm the waves outside, and want some sort of visual component to it.

For the record, I'm not ruling anything out. I just wasn't sure how it might work based on the ideas that were on the table at that point. We could try to figure it out...it might work if when an elf uses the element, they spread their awareness into the element. In this case they'd basically slip thier awarness into the water and through the hole and spread it as far as they could reach or some such...conjecture, but a possible option for the sensing category.

The words "connection based" appear nowhere in this thread prior to the post I am quoting here. Thus I don't know what you are talking about.

Perhaps they don't appear as "connection based" in my large previous post, but the word "connection" appears in reference to your proposition of "trace-a-path" in my response often enough that I thought it was evident. Since the words "trace a path" didn't come up once in your text, save once, I was just trying to clarify what you meant. I think we're on the same page now.

By "trace a path" I meant that you have to touch an object to effect it... but when dealing with large volumes of fairly homogenous material, you get to define what subset of that larger volume you are going to effect. This would mean that

Earth seers* can... trip people from far away?... but that requires the earth to MOVE which would seem to be as unnatural as air being still under your system... so let us instead say that they could make a large section of a castle wall as resistant to damage from siege engines as if it were composed of solid rock, rather than two layers of stone blocks mortared together and with loose rock in-between.

Ah crap! You're right! Damn...that's problematic...because I wanted earth to be able to be manipulated and move...

I guess I have to go back on what I'd said then - I was mistaken. How about - earth would be able to be moved with negative fate used on it, where positive fate use would be what you described in the quote. Which means that with air, negative fate might be causing friction in the air (air resistance) to slow something, or perhaps contain something with a whirlwind. I don't know if I'd be able to create a "solid" wall of air, however. This also stretches over into water and fire...because using negative fate on them would cause water to flow differently, but it would also maybe deal with lessening heat and lessening cold respectively, which is another thing I've said wasn't possible.

Thank you for helping me realize that. :smallsigh: Now to figure out if motion and stillness still work for earth and air, or if I need to figure something else for them.

Water seers have trouble when standing on dry ground, although, depending on how you have things work, they might be able to replicate Avatar: The Last Airbender's "blood bending" at least if they can touch the blood from an open wound (or stab someone with a dagger made of Fate-chilled ice).
Fire seers* are the most limited in their resources for affecting their element.

I'm still trying to keep from elements directly effecting a living thing...but I'm still trying to figure out what that means for a dead body, cut hair, blood that's been shed, or various other things. I'm inclined to think that those are so complicated, that even elves with immense power might not be able to affect a living thing, and dead they cannot until the remains have broken back down into the elements naturally. Still, I'm not sure if that works or not.

As for fire, it is unique in many ways, though because it has to do with heating, it stands to reason that many things while not at first providing the element, with some application of heat, it can actually create it. So there's that.

*Using "seer" instead of "mage" since I don't want to get Fate confused with Magic, which you obviously defined somewhere else, and don't think it necessary that I read to discuss Fate).

Works for me. Especially since second part of the system has to do with seeing into the future, seer might be the best term. I've been lamely calling them "users". When the base mechanics of manipulation are decided, I'll likely use this term. :smallwink:

None of the above applies to divination probably, if only to keep the question of "does it have to be continuous NOW or at the time I am looking at in the future (when looking into the future)" and then you get into questions of scrying on a bucket of water that you INTEND to put a drop of into the King's cup tommorrow so you WILL HAVE received a vision of if he is still alive after the assassination attempt you are considering making next week. I know you have discussed time paradox before, but that would just take things to ridiculous levels.

Wow! I'd never even considered it to be like that. It's interesting to think about, but no, the water isn't directly connected to the prediction. It's just the focus for a prediction. I think. Prediction is still yet to be torn open all the way, because I figured it would be effected by how manipulation in general worked, so it made sense to start there first. :smallsmile:

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-05-24, 12:23 PM

Alright, responses to individual posts are now up in the previous post. Anyone have any input on the 4 items up for decision listed in the last post?

SamBurke

2013-05-24, 04:03 PM

1. Elemental Attunement
I would go with B, but there should be serious consequences for splitting focus. Perhaps they never gain full power, or they can't do things, or there's bodily pain if they use two different Fatebending styles at the same time?

2. Sensing an Element.
I vote for C, as it makes sense both to gain those visual abilities, AND to have a sense of where you'd be getting abilities from.

3. Manipulating an Element
I would choose C, primarily because it seems to make sense. Perhaps early users have to be touching, and that's the "training wheels": it's easiest to visualize and change something that's so close. Then, later on, a high-level technique is to use your mind. Requires a lot of focus and all that.

4. Elemental Power Progression.
A makes the most sense.. otherwise, there would be imbalances of power between the various groups: for example, Fire would look for a lot of young recruits, whereas Water would train lots of good ones...

Strike that. The imbalance there sounds AWESOME. Perhaps Earth is effected by what happens: more power, but less versatility over time? (hardening of rock, formation), or the opposite: the breaking down. Less power, lots of versatility and fine motor skills.

Air... perhaps it undulates. Call it the Path of the Winds, "ever winding, ever changing... uncertain. It comes when it is given to you, and you never know when that might be." Something mystical and, well, wind-like.

DracoDei

2013-05-25, 09:52 PM

1C
2C
The elf senses the world in two ways at once (or switches between them). But they AREN'T options A and B.
The first is normal, unaugmented senses.
The other can ONLY sense their attuned element(s), but is unimpeded by any other element. Mixed element objects are detected if any of their constituant elements are ones the elf is attuned to. This means that water-attuned elves can see and hear water under rocky ground as if most other noises existed and the ground were perfectly transparent. Of course, the water looks pitch black since no light can reach it, but it is a sort of pitch black that is somehow DIFFERENT from the pitch black of "no water in this direction". Explaining the difference to a non-elf is an exercise in frustration for the average elf, although both philosophers and poets have made reasonably good attempts.

3A
4B

LPlate

2013-05-28, 10:41 AM

Hi,

Okay, first thought after reading OP:
Fate is supposed to be a duality but not Good/Evil Duality. I'd suggest a Stasis/Chaos duality. If you think of our universe as being tightly bound ball of immobile everything prior to the big bang and now it's in a gradual descent towards total entropy. In your universe Stasis fate ultimately is aiming for that tight ball of immobility and Chaos fate is aiming for total disbandment. If either gets where its going, then the people in your world could not exist.
That would probably mean flipping your elemental axes a bit;
Earth - Stasis
Water - Tends towards Stasis (flows down hill, etc.)
Fire - Tends towards Chaos (burns, destroys, etc.)
Air - Chaos

You could use a different term to Chaos to avoid confusion with the Lawful/Chaotic character axes if they are being used in your game. Entropy would be an option. A Lawful character could (perhaps unknowingly) serve to further Chaos Fate Radicals, e.g. a leader who creates a massive empire, crushing all other civilizations around him, binding them all under one law would seem to be fairly Lawful. Chaos Fate might just be using him to establish an Empire that is too large to survive and when it crumbles, there are no longer any of the other nearby indigenous civilizations to pick up the pieces and so the world ends up more chaotic than if the Empire never existed.

---

Anyway, time to actually read the thread and find out how inappropriate that suggestion was.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-05-28, 11:07 AM

Tallies so far based on Post #77 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15291144#post15291144)

Tally for Elemental Attunement-

1A - 0
1B - 1
1C - 2

Tally for Sensing an Element-

2A - 0
2B - 0
2C - 1
2D - 2

Tally for Interaction with an Element-

3A - 1
3B - 0
3C - 2

Tally for Elemental Power Progression-

4A - 1
4B - 2
4C - 0

3

I'm getting some good ideas in most of these categories now. However sensing the elements is certainly something that has been the most...interesting thing to nail down. It might end up being the last decided, based on how the rest of these fall. Draco, I like your description of your vision of the senses. I'll think on that more going forward.

I've gotten a set of votes off thread, which is where the third set of votes comes from.

3

Hi,

Okay, first thought after reading OP:
Fate is supposed to be a duality but not Good/Evil Duality. I'd suggest a Stasis/Chaos duality. If you think of our universe as being tightly bound ball of immobile everything prior to the big bang and now it's in a gradual descent towards total entropy. In your universe Stasis fate ultimately is aiming for that tight ball of immobility and Chaos fate is aiming for total disbandment. If either gets where its going, then the people in your world could not exist.
That would probably mean flipping your elemental axes a bit;
Earth - Stasis
Water - Tends towards Stasis (flows down hill, etc.)
Fire - Tends towards Chaos (burns, destroys, etc.)
Air - Chaos

Huh. That's a thought. Perhaps...let me think on that more...

You could use a different term to Chaos to avoid confusion with the Lawful/Chaotic character axes if they are being used in your game. Entropy would be an option. A Lawful character could (perhaps unknowingly) serve to further Chaos Fate Radicals, e.g. a leader who creates a massive empire, crushing all other civilizations around him, binding them all under one law would seem to be fairly Lawful. Chaos Fate might just be using him to establish an Empire that is too large to survive and when it crumbles, there are no longer any of the other nearby indigenous civilizations to pick up the pieces and so the world ends up more chaotic than if the Empire never existed.

Some equally interesting thoughts...Hm. I'll think on naming, and actions based on radicals going forward, but these are good thoughts toward influences.

Anyway, time to actually read the thread and find out how inappropriate that suggestion was.

I look forward to it!

Amidus Drexel

2013-05-29, 10:47 PM

I've... mostly skimmed the thread, and I've only got two questions right now. Apologies if they've already been answered.

First, regarding elements and positive/negative Fate in relation to entropy (from your first post): As far as thermodynamics are concerned, the entropy of a system will always increase unless an outside force or energy is used to decrease it... I'd hesitate to call things that increase entropy "unnatural" if you're trying to mesh this somewhat with a modern understanding of science.

Perhaps a slightly different term (for either natural/unnatural or entropy) that means something similar? Sorry, it just jumped out at me when I read it.

Please note: You cannot affect the water within a living creature, the wieght of a living creature, the material a creature is made out of, the heat of a creature internally, suck the breath out of a creature, or any action internally involving a living thing. You can only affect the environment around a living thing. This includes plants, animals, insects, so on.

Why not? (probably as a matter of balance, but what's the in-world reason?)

And my votes: 1A, 2A, 3C, and 4A

LPlate

2013-05-30, 01:14 AM

Options up for Debate:
Elemental Attunement
Option D:
I'd suggest that not every seer needs to operate in the same way, some may be specialists, some generalists. Some specialists could focus purely in one element and some might have a primary element and dabble in the elements on either side of it.
However, given that the elves' interest in Fate is focussed on maintaining the correct balance, it's hard to think that some of them would not try to gain an understanding of all elements.

Although they might not attain the raw power of a specialist, their balanced approach would probably gain them a lot of respect. In a small village, they'd probably prefer a generalist who is always able to help rather than a specialist who can only help once in a while (think of GPs and surgeons in our world).

Of course, different nations/areas could tend more toward specialists/generalists. If you have loads of seers in a region, then more powerful specialists makes sense as you can always find two/four to work together when needed.

2. Sensing an Element
Option B:
Sort of. You might want to link their ability to sense the elements with their ability to sense the future. They wouldn't just sense the element, they'd sense the potential an element held.
There was mention of seers persuading or coercing elements. Are there elemental spirits? Would seers be able to see into the elemental "spirit" world and that's where they get their awareness of the elements from? If using "spirit" world, the influence of the Fate radicals could be more apparent there.

3. Interaction with an Element
Option C:
Both is my basic preference. If using the elemental "spirit" world, then action at a distance could be explained by a path being traced in the "spirit" world. A suitably skilled seer would then be able to track actions back to their originators by observation unless the acting seer uses your "fire an arrow" analogy.

4. Elemental Power Progression
Option B: Each element has a variant in how they progress:
Firstly, I think knowledge and ability should increase with experience. The amount of power that can be tapped into at any time could vary per type (subject to general increase with experience)
Earth: solid, always able to constantly use same amount of power
Water: Amount of power that can be spent at a time varies with tides
Fire: Able to spend (much) more power than others but only for a short time before allowing time to replenish
Air: Completely variable, pattern of amount of power available seems random and unpredictable

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-05-30, 09:05 AM

Votes tallied to here.

-

Option A

Option B

Option C

Option D

Elemental Attunement

2

1

2

1

Sensing an Element

1

1

2

2

Interaction with an Element

1

0

5

0

Elemental Power Progression

2

3

1

-

I've... mostly skimmed the thread, and I've only got two questions right now. Apologies if they've already been answered.

First, regarding elements and positive/negative Fate in relation to entropy (from your first post): As far as thermodynamics are concerned, the entropy of a system will always increase unless an outside force or energy is used to decrease it... I'd hesitate to call things that increase entropy "unnatural" if you're trying to mesh this somewhat with a modern understanding of science.

Perhaps a slightly different term (for either natural/unnatural or entropy) that means something similar? Sorry, it just jumped out at me when I read it.

This is exactly why I appreciate others looking over my system, so as to point these things out. As I'm trying to avoid terms like "Natural" and "Unnatural", I removed the text on that. I'm also considering shifting slightly which elements are radical elements, and which are partial, so some of this is subject to be changed anyway. The wording in front of the lists is mostly placeholder for a much large and indepth description, since I'm still working on the mechanics for the system in general, so I don't want to write up too terribly much and then have to change it all. Either way, I certainly value everyone's advice and opinion who comments here, so never feel hessitant to speak up. (especially since I don't know a ton on physics and entropy:smallredface:)

Why not? (probably as a matter of balance, but what's the in-world reason?)

Because life and living tissue and so on is all part of Luck, the third and final force that I'll be working on. However, I have no idea what I'll do about things that have died...or blood that's been shed. I'm considering the fact that bodies and things are just too complex elemental combinations for elemental power to manipulate. When something then dies, then it begins to break down into the 4 elements again, and those elements can eventually be manipulated, but not immediately. Thoughts?

Options up for Debate:
Elemental Attunement
Option D:
I'd suggest that not every seer needs to operate in the same way, some may be specialists, some generalists. Some specialists could focus purely in one element and some might have a primary element and dabble in the elements on either side of it.
However, given that the elves' interest in Fate is focussed on maintaining the correct balance, it's hard to think that some of them would not try to gain an understanding of all elements.

Although they might not attain the raw power of a specialist, their balanced approach would probably gain them a lot of respect. In a small village, they'd probably prefer a generalist who is always able to help rather than a specialist who can only help once in a while (think of GPs and surgeons in our world).

Of course, different nations/areas could tend more toward specialists/generalists. If you have loads of seers in a region, then more powerful specialists makes sense as you can always find two/four to work together when needed.

The trick with this is that I don't think its possible for an element to be able to attune to two opposite ends of the spectrum. I also like the limitation of one seer not being able to attain full spectrums of elemental focus. I do agree however that elves would be inclined to study the different elements. Heck, I'd say that studying the other elements would assist in making the power over their element stronger. Getting new perspective on how your element works with others certainly would allow you to be much more effective with your element.

I think specialists and generalists is an idea I've been toying around with, but not quite the way you are thinking...but I'll let you respond to my opinions before going on further.

2. Sensing an Element
Option B:
Sort of. You might want to link their ability to sense the elements with their ability to sense the future. They wouldn't just sense the element, they'd sense the potential an element held.
There was mention of seers persuading or coercing elements. Are there elemental spirits? Would seers be able to see into the elemental "spirit" world and that's where they get their awareness of the elements from? If using "spirit" world, the influence of the Fate radicals could be more apparent there.

I've in general terms said that the elemental abilities are given to the elves by the elements themselves. The elements embody Fate, so to put it more clearly, Fate has given/chosen the elves to have power over it. Exactly how that interaction plays out is dependent on this "sensing ability" as well as the "power progression" topic . I'm trying to avoid having a spirit world or spirits in general, and I'm not sure why. I guess because it seems to me like a handwave, because instead of explaining how they interact with the elements in this world, we just say - oh it's in a different one. Still, you're right, there is some suggestion of awareness/entitiy from the elements, and I need to define in better terms where that awareness exists/comes from. Whether it is in this world or "other worldly". I was considering something divine, perhaps.

3. Interaction with an Element
Option C:
Both is my basic preference. If using the elemental "spirit" world, then action at a distance could be explained by a path being traced in the "spirit" world. A suitably skilled seer would then be able to track actions back to their originators by observation unless the acting seer uses your "fire an arrow" analogy.

It seems it's nearly everyone's preference. What's neat about having these options is that I can consider the subject from tons of angles at once and see what other's views of it too. Like Draco's idea of Find-a-path I might end up implementing for the Luck system, if not for this system, because I like it quite a bit. I agree that whatever the decision for sensing the element is going to significantly effect how the interaction with the element works. So maybe I should be focusing on that a bit more than the rest of this...

4. Elemental Power Progression
Option B: Each element has a variant in how they progress:
Firstly, I think knowledge and ability should increase with experience. The amount of power that can be tapped into at any time could vary per type (subject to general increase with experience)
Earth: solid, always able to constantly use same amount of power
Water: Amount of power that can be spent at a time varies with tides
Fire: Able to spend (much) more power than others but only for a short time before allowing time to replenish
Air: Completely variable, pattern of amount of power available seems random and unpredictable

Oooo, now these are interesting. I'm not sure about the tides thing with water, but I like your idea with fire, and your earth seems to be the logical step for earth. Air I'd like to pin down better, but that might not be feasible since...it's air :smallbiggrin: but I'll think on it.

Amidus Drexel

2013-05-30, 09:32 PM

Because life and living tissue and so on is all part of Luck, the third and final force that I'll be working on. However, I have no idea what I'll do about things that have died...or blood that's been shed. I'm considering the fact that bodies and things are just too complex elemental combinations for elemental power to manipulate.

When something then dies, then it begins to break down into the 4 elements again, and those elements can eventually be manipulated, but not immediately. Thoughts?

Ah, so essentially there's interference between the combination of all four elements and the force of Luck that makes it basically impossible to use Fate on living creatures. Cool.

Makes sense to me.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-05-30, 09:41 PM

Ah, so essentially there's interference between the combination of all four elements and the force of Luck that makes it basically impossible to use Fate on living creatures. Cool.

Makes sense to me.

Alright, cool. Canon. :smallsmile:

DracoDei

2013-05-30, 09:48 PM

My emotional resources are still low, although just at the moment, they are on the increase.

So, it might or might not be a while before I can try to apply more physics to what you have.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-05-30, 10:01 PM

My emotional resources are still low, although just at the moment, they are on the increase.

So, it might or might not be a while before I can try to apply more physics to what you have.

Take your time. Sorry I've been unable to put further work into your own homebrew at the moment. I've been fairly swamped, and the day of lost forum didn't help. Alas.

LPlate

2013-05-31, 02:07 AM

The trick with this is that I don't think its possible for an element to be able to attune to two opposite ends of the spectrum. I also like the limitation of one seer not being able to attain full spectrums of elemental focus. I do agree however that elves would be inclined to study the different elements. Heck, I'd say that studying the other elements would assist in making the power over their element stronger. Getting new perspective on how your element works with others certainly would allow you to be much more effective with your element.

I think specialists and generalists is an idea I've been toying around with, but not quite the way you are thinking...but I'll let you respond to my opinions before going on further.

I've in general terms said that the elemental abilities are given to the elves by the elements themselves. The elements embody Fate, so to put it more clearly, Fate has given/chosen the elves to have power over it. Exactly how that interaction plays out is dependent on this "sensing ability" as well as the "power progression" topic . I'm trying to avoid having a spirit world or spirits in general, and I'm not sure why. I guess because it seems to me like a handwave, because instead of explaining how they interact with the elements in this world, we just say - oh it's in a different one. Still, you're right, there is some suggestion of awareness/entitiy from the elements, and I need to define in better terms where that awareness exists/comes from. Whether it is in this world or "other worldly". I was considering something divine, perhaps.

Just to flip that generalist idea sideways:
If the dual aspects of Fate are aware and choose who to give elemental powers to
And if there was an elf who was going to have a major impact on history
* both aspects of fate would know about him
* both aspects of fate would want him to drive their particular destiny agenda
* both would try to claim him by giving him power over their elements

Ability with opposing elements would not be seen by other elves as a sign of someone who was going to help maintain the right balance. Rather they'd view them as someone who would drive destiny towards one of its extremes. Any elf who publicly manifested such abilities could expect to be shunned, banished or worse, depending on the regional elven laws.

Most elves who discover an ability to control opposing elements would realise what it meant. They'd hide it from other elves but know that they had a great destiny. This secret knowledge would give them the confidence to push harder for what they believed, making them more likely to succeed in what they want, have an impact on history and achieve a notable destiny (fulfilling the Fate aspects' original assessment).
Other dual ability elves would flee/be banished. With their superior abilities, they'd gain positions of power among the humans and fulfil a significant destiny that way.

So, in conclusion, elves with abilities over opposing elements would be rare and those who openly use that ability would be even rarer. It does allow for them to be a significant NPC/antagonist - could even be the main protagonist in your story as they have to pick between destinies.

Oooo, now these are interesting. I'm not sure about the tides thing with water

Not necessarily linked to tides. Just think of the power level rising and falling in predictable wave pattern.

---

Not sure where you stand on the Stasis/Chaos aspects of Fate but here are some alternative names that could be used (some negatively) for them;
Stasis: One, unity, purity, ascension, singularity, truth, dogma, order, cage, binding, closed, reason, given, in
Chaos: All, freedom, disparate, dissolution, unravelling, wild, open, choice, taken, out

Regarding religions and motivations for unbalanced elves - if you do use the stasis/chaos duality, you could have a minor, not very widespread elven religion which believes that furthering the interests of the stasis chaos will bring the universe into one pure form allowing everything to ascend and rejoin God.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-03, 09:44 AM

Fate is supposed to be a duality but not Good/Evil Duality. I'd suggest a Stasis/Chaos duality. If you think of our universe as being tightly bound ball of immobile everything prior to the big bang and now it's in a gradual descent towards total entropy. In your universe Stasis fate ultimately is aiming for that tight ball of immobility and Chaos fate is aiming for total disbandment. If either gets where its going, then the people in your world could not exist.
That would probably mean flipping your elemental axes a bit;
Earth - Stasis
Water - Tends towards Stasis (flows down hill, etc.)
Fire - Tends towards Chaos (burns, destroys, etc.)
Air - Chaos
---

Not sure where you stand on the Stasis/Chaos aspects of Fate but here are some alternative names that could be used (some negatively) for them;
Stasis: One, unity, purity, ascension, singularity, truth, dogma, order, cage, binding, closed, reason, given, in
Chaos: All, freedom, disparate, dissolution, unravelling, wild, open, choice, taken, out

Regarding religions and motivations for unbalanced elves - if you do use the stasis/chaos duality, you could have a minor, not very widespread elven religion which believes that furthering the interests of the stasis chaos will bring the universe into one pure form allowing everything to ascend and rejoin God.

Alright. So, after much considering, I've come to the conclusion that you are indeed correct. Thank you for this suggestion! The tendancies of the elements need to change. From now on:

Positive fate will represent the tendency for atoms, particles, and so on to come toward each other. Become denser. Become stagnant. This would cause earth to be the element most sided with Positive Fate, but water, dealing with cooling, and removing energy from the subject, would lean toward Positive Fate as well.

Conversely, Negative Fate represents things drifting away from each other, becoming less dense, and expanding. This causes Wind to be the element that most sides with Negative Fate, though fire, dealing with heating, and moving energy into a subject, would lean toward Negative Fate as well.

Still, it must be remembered that Positive and Negative Fate aren't exclusive to any particular element, just the tendencies of them. For example, manipulating an element is generally using the element in a way it normal does not act, so doing so is using the opposite fate upon it. To expand - if I am manipulating earth, I am using Negative Fate to move it around. Conversely, if I wanted to slow air, I'd use Positive Fate to do so.

Since Fire and Water are more neutral elements, they do not react so exclusively. If I use Negative Fate on liquids, it doesn't mean that it will heat up, but I could redirect a flow or cause it to move in uncharacteristic ways. Fire similarly doesn't mean I can cool plasma when I use Negative Fate on it, but I can cause lightning to be confined and directed, instead of chaotic and unrefined.
-

Also, since the Radicals of Fate over reaching, all of the synonyms you reference I feel are representatives of one or the other, not one exclusively. Similar to how each element is a philosophical name for a state of matter, not a specific thing.

Just to flip that generalist idea sideways:
If the dual aspects of Fate are aware and choose who to give elemental powers to
And if there was an elf who was going to have a major impact on history
* both aspects of fate would know about him
* both aspects of fate would want him to drive their particular destiny agenda
* both would try to claim him by giving him power over their elements

Well...its sort of a two way road. And frankly, the aspects of fate are certainly a work in progress. The way I had it originally was that the more in touch an elf got to the element they were attuning to, the more powers were entrusted. So sort of like a relationship. That might be effected by how power progression works out, so I have been hessitant to pin down exactly how elves got thier powers. For now, lets look at it like this for sake of banging out the system: All the forces exist, and with this existance, 3 races have attuned to these three forces. Like how wolves eat meat, or trees need light to grow, these races are biologically connected to the forces they are attuned to. Because of this, they have over generations evolved to be able to harness this power they are attached to, and with that has been refinement and knowledge within this. Elves have a relationship with the elements because they are part of who they are as a race. Its not simply a choice, its part of them, their culture, their way of life.

That being said, I do like the idea of Fate actively vying for a particular influencer, though I might have it be organizations or religions based on one side of radical or the other, and a third being the balance of the two.

Ability with opposing elements would not be seen by other elves as a sign of someone who was going to help maintain the right balance. Rather they'd view them as someone who would drive destiny towards one of its extremes. Any elf who publicly manifested such abilities could expect to be shunned, banished or worse, depending on the regional elven laws.

Most elves who discover an ability to control opposing elements would realise what it meant. They'd hide it from other elves but know that they had a great destiny. This secret knowledge would give them the confidence to push harder for what they believed, making them more likely to succeed in what they want, have an impact on history and achieve a notable destiny (fulfilling the Fate aspects' original assessment).
Other dual ability elves would flee/be banished. With their superior abilities, they'd gain positions of power among the humans and fulfil a significant destiny that way.

So, in conclusion, elves with abilities over opposing elements would be rare and those who openly use that ability would be even rarer. It does allow for them to be a significant NPC/antagonist - could even be the main protagonist in your story as they have to pick between destinies.

Hmmm...this is indeed an interesting line of thought. You are making a nice case for someone to align with opposite elements. If that indeed becomes canon, I'll likely have it expanded to elemental power spanning more than two elements. We'll see. For now, this gives me some nice flavor to think about if I take that option. :smallsmile:

Not necessarily linked to tides. Just think of the power level rising and falling in predictable wave pattern.

I see. Though what's interesting is the fact that with how the water element works is taking energy from something...so if I'm using energy to manipulate a liquid...I can recharge by freezing something, and thus taking energy from it back into my body, which I can then use ro manipulate again. Hmmm...not sure I like that either...though it is similar to how fire needs to recharge as well....hmmm....

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-05, 11:28 AM

DracoDei

2013-06-05, 02:14 PM

Two of the options I'm liking, that others also liked I'm having a problem getting to work together:

Many of you enjoy the idea that an elf can attune to more than one element if they so choose, at a weaker level than their originally attuned element.

Also, a lot of you like that each element has a manipulative power progression that is different from the others.

Currently, that seems a little counterintuitive to each other...so do any of you have some interesting takes on how they might work if both things were true?
One way would be to conceptually divide it up into two ratings, one based on how the elf is balanced between the two elements... call that "Dedication".

The other based on the completely separate progression mechanic.

I don't know if this would be separate from the second, but you could also include something for how much practice they have had (equivalent to caster level or character level in D&D).

Then make the rating work at least APPROXIMATELY according to the following:

Power = Practice*(Dedication+Progression)
Power = Practice*Dedication*Progression

With Dedication adding up to a fixed constant between all elements in all cases (at least probably).

LPlate

2013-06-05, 04:22 PM

Currently, that seems a little counterintuitive to each other...so do any of you have some interesting takes on how they might work if both things were true?
If a seer attuned to more than one element, one element could still be dominant and this could define how much power is available to them. I.e. secondary attuned elements wouldn't impact on their power reserves.
Otherwise, the power could be split based on how attuned they are to each element, e.g. a fire/earth seer would always be able to exert his constant "earth" level power but could occasionally boost this up for a short time with his "fire" level power.

Mathsy ways of looking at it
Ea, Ee, Ef, Ew = current fluctuation in elemental power per level for air, earth, etc
La, Le, Lf, Lw = level in air, etc
P = Power
F1, F2 = Factors for splitting focus from one element. Sum of factors should be less than or equal to 1.

Option 1: Power available based purely on level in primary element (using that earth/fire seer as an example)
P = Le * Ee

Option 2: Power contributed to by ability in each element based on attunement (level) in that element
P = Le * Ee + Lf * Ef

Option 3: Power based on overall skill with all elements but fluctuation is defined by primarily attuned element
P = (Le + Lf) * Ee

Option 4: Factored option 2
P = Le * Ee * F1 + Lf * Ef * F2

Option 5: Factored option 3
P = (Le * F1 + Lf * F2) * Ee

SamBurke

2013-06-05, 05:02 PM

Two of the options I'm liking, that others also liked I'm having a problem getting to work together:

Many of you enjoy the idea that an elf can attune to more than one element if they so choose, at a weaker level than their originally attuned element.

Also, a lot of you like that each element has a manipulative power progression that is different from the others.

Currently, that seems a little counterintuitive to each other...so do any of you have some interesting takes on how they might work if both things were true?

Hm... Interesting point. It seems like you'd have one of two options (oh boy... more multiple choice!):

1. Have the elf choose one power fluctuation. If Earth/Water, either it comes and gos like the tide, or gradually builds up, like the earth.

2. Each element's progression is tied to it, and it alone. If using fire, then you get fire's progression, water always has water's power fluctuation, and so on.

DracoDei

2013-06-05, 06:45 PM

Hm... Interesting point. It seems like you'd have one of two options (oh boy... more multiple choice!):

1. Have the elf choose one power fluctuation. If Earth/Water, either it comes and gos like the tide, or gradually builds up, like the earth.

2. Each element's progression is tied to it, and it alone. If using fire, then you get fire's progression, water always has water's power fluctuation, and so on.
Of these I definitely prefer the second... in fact, I definitely prefer it over any other option, with the only caveat being what happens when trying to do duel-element stuff.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-06, 10:10 AM

Ooo! Math times! :smallsmile: This discussion is starting to remind me of my Magic system's equations, so I'm going to quote them for reference.

Power = [Interior Belief (knowledge and experience create esteem) + Exterior Belief (quantity of viewer and/or quality of belief from viewer)] x Quantity of Casters
Quality of Belief (Exterior) = (Inherent belief of magic) x (Quality of Illusion or Suggestion) + Material Aids
Quality of Belief (Interior) = (Ability) x (Experience) + Material Aids
Ability = Creativity (Imagination and Aptitude) + Study (knowledge of subject in casting)

Alright, so we don't need quality of belief, but this gives us some things to go off of. Instead of Quality of Belief, we have the Level of Progression from the Seer. Hmmmm...This all gives me an idea -

What if Elemental power is based on two separate features -

A. Each Elemental Seer gains power based on their Age (and/or Experience) and Skill (and/or Ability).

B. The Fluctuations of the Element. Whether it has to be recharged like fire, or is always there like earth, these features dictate a certain amount of the amount of power that can be used.

(not to mention, as always, power is useless if you as a user run out of energy)

As for how that progresses - each element, or combination of elements, would be centered around the power of the seer. So while there are fluctuations in one or both elements separately, they both draw upon the progression level as a base as well.

This kind of sounds complicated in a way, but I kind of like that no matter what, Seers can still be manipulate, and be powerful, even if their element itself hampers them in its fluctuations at points. Let me see if I can make this make sense...

So the Fate equations might be as follows:

Power = [(Progression Level + Elemental Fluctuation)] x Quantity of Seers
Progression Level = [Wisdom (Age + Experience) x Capacity (Skill + Ability)]
Skill = (Raw Strength) + (Sensitivity) + (Precision)
Ability = Creativity(Imagination and Aptitude) + Study (knowledge of elements)

Raw Strength; which of two Earth-attuned users can move more dirt?
Sensitivity; which user can more accurately interpret what they're sensing to pinpoint that underground water, or sense smaller amounts?
Precision; when it comes to actually manipulating the element(s), which user has finer control?

How does that sound, folks?

LPlate

2013-06-06, 12:38 PM

So the Fate equations might be as follows:

Power = [(Progression Level + Elemental Fluctuation)] x Quantity of Seers
Progression Level = [Wisdom (Age + Experience) x Capacity (Skill + Ability)]
Skill = (Raw Strength) + (Sensitivity) + (Precision)
Ability = Creativity(Imagination and Aptitude) + Study (knowledge of elements)

Raw Strength; which of two Earth-attuned users can move more dirt?
Sensitivity; which user can more accurately interpret what they're sensing to pinpoint that underground water, or sense smaller amounts?
Precision; when it comes to actually manipulating the element(s), which user has finer control?

How does that sound, folks?

To me Sensitivity isn't something that should be feeding into Power. I'd see it as more as a limit on when Power can actually be used. Sure a fire seer standing beside a fire is going to find it easy to exercise his power but a fire seer in the Arctic with only a box of matches needs to be very sensitive to work any type of effect (even if on his home turf with a camp fire, he could decimate armies). I'd see Sensitivity as also playing a roll in sustaining the link for effects which last longer than an instant. Gamewise, I'd see a sensitivity roll to be able to initiate using an elemental power with the difficulty based on the local environment and then an ongoing (possibly easier) Sensitivity roll each turn to keep using that elemental power.

Again, Precision is important to Skill but not necessarily for power. A fire seer who wants to fry armies just wants lots of power but isn't too pushed about the finesse end of Precision. A seer who wants to melt manacles off a slave without hurting the slave would want to be fairly precise in the application of his skills.

To me the Power reflects the magnitude of the effect. Skill reflects how well that effect can be applied. The skill level shouldn't necessarily feed into the Power. Creating an effect to burn an entire city requires a lot of Power but not too much Skill. Creating a flame that can be used to fashion jewellery requires less power but more skill.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-06, 01:02 PM

To me Sensitivity isn't something that should be feeding into Power. I'd see it as more as a limit on when Power can actually be used. Sure a fire seer standing beside a fire is going to find it easy to exercise his power but a fire seer in the Arctic with only a box of matches needs to be very sensitive to work any type of effect (even if on his home turf with a camp fire, he could decimate armies). I'd see Sensitivity as also playing a roll in sustaining the link for effects which last longer than an instant. Gamewise, I'd see a sensitivity roll to be able to initiate using an elemental power with the difficulty based on the local environment and then an ongoing (possibly easier) Sensitivity roll each turn to keep using that elemental power.

Again, Precision is important to Skill but not necessarily for power. A fire seer who wants to fry armies just wants lots of power but isn't too pushed about the finesse end of Precision. A seer who wants to melt manacles off a slave without hurting the slave would want to be fairly precise in the application of his skills.

To me the Power reflects the magnitude of the effect. Skill reflects how well that effect can be applied. The skill level shouldn't necessarily feed into the Power. Creating an effect to burn an entire city requires a lot of Power but not too much Skill. Creating a flame that can be used to fashion jewellery requires less power but more skill.

Good Point. Let me see...how's this?

Power = [(Progression Level + Elemental Fluctuation) / Amount of Elements Attuned] x Quantity of Seers
Progression Level = (Age x Experience)
Caliber of Manipulation = (Ability + Skill)
Ability = (Sensitivity + Precision) x Progression Level
Skill = Creativity(Imagination and Aptitude) + Study (knowledge of elements)

Sensitivity; which user can more accurately interpret what they're sensing to pinpoint that underground water, or sense smaller amounts?
Precision; when it comes to actually manipulating the element(s), which user has finer control?

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-12, 08:14 AM

Alright folks. So I've made some decisions on the system -

Instead of narrowing it down to one option or the other, I'm using all of the options. More on this incoming...just writing a lot. Thanks to the people who weighed in on my options. This process was helpful in seeing what people liked, why, and why they thought it would work best.

Now to conjour some text walls. :smallbiggrin: Any questions that anyone needs addressing while I'm writing? Details that might be missing fromt he OP?

LPlate

2013-06-12, 09:55 AM

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-12, 10:55 AM

You asked for it.

The whole Ultimate Fate bit needs to be fleshed out.

How do seers see the future? Do they see one possibility or several potentialities? Is that perception defined/strongly influenced by their attuned element/associated radical?

Can seers actually change destiny or are they just pawns of the radicals? Is there agreement among the elves as to whether destiny can be controlled?

How tied into Ultimate Fate are the elven versions of religions?

Does the strength of radicals wax and wane? Can the strength of radicals be influenced by seers? If so, how?

What happened in the world the last times that the elves failed to maintain the proper balance? If it has never gone enough out of balance to have a noticeable effect, are the elves misleading themselves as to the importance of balance?

How has Ultimate Fate impacted on elven diplomatic relations? Are they the ultimate manipulators, steering entire nations of humans to desired outcomes?

All wonderful questions! Some of this has been discussed a bit before I focused on immediate fate, some of this I plan to talk about after I'm done with immediate fate.

But I agree, Ultimate Fate is next on the list, now that I know a lot more about the system in general.

Religion is something I haven't really explored (and something I'm quite lacking in general in my world) so any thoughts on that would be helpful indeed.

What I know now is that there are AT LEAST two possible predictions - predictions for one of each of the radicals. It's up to the elves to determine the correct combination to keep the two balanced, and what things might cause others from not occuring and so on.

Once there's a prediction - an elf can attempt to steer events toward or away from the predicted event. They can only do this through immediate fate. Elves can see the future, but only touch the present.

I'm not sure if the radicals wax and wane. That might be evidenced by the seasons? Thoughts?

That's all for now, but excellent questions.

LPlate

2013-06-14, 05:40 AM

Couple of thoughts on Fate's impact on Diplomacy
People are sometimes asked the hypothetical question, if you could travel back in time before WWII, would you kill Hitler (to prevent World War II and the holocaust)? Conversation can then ramble about whether it is ever justified to kill, is it okay to punish someone for crimes they haven't yet committed, injustices suffered by Germany after WWI meant that another war was inevitable (with or without Hitler), that scientific advances made during WWII might not have been made without the impetus of the war, that changing the timeline is just too risky as you can't be sure of the (butterfly) effects. Seers can cut through all of those sorts of doubt. Their vision of the future allows them to say that killing someone will be definitely of benefit. This could lead to some elven assassination groups who target people in order to prevent them causing certain events. The film 'Wanted' had an assassination cult who targetted victims based on their name being woven by a loom of fate. Elven assassins could operate similarly with seers identifying the targets Of course, if you have the information early enough, you'd target the victim before they put any defences in place - deaths among aristocratic children in your world might be slightly higher if such assassination cults existed.

I'd see elven nations always having their eye on the long game. Take a look at how the Chinese reclaimed Hong Kong - gave a 100 year lease of extra land around the British colony and at the end of the 100 years the colony had grown so that it was unsustainable without that extra land and China gets it back with no blood shed (not a historian, so that's probably way oversimplified). With seers guiding every international negotiation, the elves would be prepared to give seemingly meaningful concessions in negotiations which would ultimately be to their benefit. Dealing with the elves is like playing a chess grandmaster - they've planned a few hundred moves ahead of you.

Veklim

2013-06-14, 01:55 PM

Dun dun DUUUUUUUUN!

'If you cross the river, you will destroy a great empire...' The Oracle at Delphi

When it comes to predictions, ironically nothing is certain. To see the 'future' is merely to read the ripples and follow them to their source (for a water seer at least), but time is not so simple as a pool of water. Every prediction made has at least two probable outcomes, and even when the answer seems simple enough, these outcomes can be vague. The greatest single use of predictive powers is to identify the key 'movers' of fate well in advance of the movement they induce, so that the outcomes may be 'clarified' with contact and study of the movers themselves and their immediate fates. Without this you can end up with conflict between different groups of seers, as they have all seen different aspects of the mover's fate (see sub-rant in a moment). Clarification is where an event or outcome becomes a certainty rather than a possibility. The precise moment of this can vary from imminent (perhaps minutes or hours, perhaps a few days) to distant (years or even decades), but is most often approaching (giving weeks or months to prepare). There will be those who have already made some preparations for such events, these are the seers who have had a 'gut feeling' about one of their predictions, and have already dedicated their time to it's occurrence before the clarity of the event even arises.

A sub-rant using LPlate's example of Hitler...
Hitler would have been identified in his teens, and quickly surmised by some seers to be vital to the technological, ethical and political development of the human race. This information does not tell you HOW, but say this group of seers had read the import of the man, and had lured him away from that mortar round in the trenches of the Great War to ensure his future impact remained in tact. It would be another 25 years before the full extent of this one action would unveil, but perhaps other seers read differently, and saw the closer atrocities rather than the more distant effects of these actions, deciding to take him out of the equation. Cue countless political manoeuvres and assassination attempts, where 2 separate seer groups, in secret, are fighting against each other because both of them perceive truth, but neither has all the facts. A third group of seers have seen a possible world spawned by the early death of Hitler in that same trench, and knows that WWII would have happened either way, but the world would be a very different place without this unstable dictator teetering at the top of the German ladder. These seers know that if Hitler is in command, the Germans will eventually fail, and they know that with a number of other leaders, Germany wins and controls a large part of Europe and much of Western Russia. They also see what happens if Hitler lives post-war, well into his 60's, and the further war which will come from Argentina if this occurs. These third group of seers spend much of their time hindering the attempts of BOTH of the other seers, because Hitler must remain alive long enough to lose the war, but he must also die once certain German defeat is achieved.

I see the Elves as being a race of HUGE dichotomy, on the one hand they are joined intrinsically with one another as being the Custodians of Fate. They have the single unified purpose of maintaining balance through Fate manipulation and careful fostering. On the other hand, they will inevitably form groups of like-minded seers (which I'm calling 'forums') who work together to bring about certain events and conclusions to prophecies. These forums are rather mutable at the best of times, because as each seer watches and studies a mover, they see more of these ripples (or whispers, or tremors or flickerings) and the possibilities widen or narrow as a result. A seer may freely move from one forum to another, but certain social ties and diplomatic requirements can make it a bad idea to do so in some cases.

There are a few benefits to being in a forum, although some seers refuse to ever join one, preferring to remain neutral on smaller, immediate issues in favour of recording long-term predictions. These are known as the scribes, and I'll get to them in a bit...

Forums
Forums emerge whenever a pivotal event clarifies, different forums looking for different outcomes, or perhaps even the same outcome, just through different means. They can emerge before clarity, but are generally smaller and consisting of older seers who prefer the ever-mercurial long game to the fast-paced reactionary approach of the younger elves.

Once you join a forum, discussion is surprisingly minimal at first, most of your time for the first week or more is spent in communal seeing rituals, where 3 or more seers can share a prediction, seeing more sides and possibilities. Discussion starts once you have determined an approach solid enough to act upon decisively, and the debate tends to deal with what need be done to improve the chances of the forum's goal.

A forum is stronger with more members, since the more they see, the more detailed and accurate their predictions can become. However, a group of 30 fire seers are still inferior to a group of 12 seers where 3 seers of each element are present. Fate requires a balance which is only truly attainable with all the elements in place.

It is worth bearing in mind that whereas a well appointed forum can see very accurately into a single outcome of an event, the bigger picture is often lost when you have many seers focusing on one event. As a result, forums not only oppose and/or support each other depending on their motives, but are also unable to deal with larger and further-reaching issues, and so the number of seers across an area who are involved in a forum never tends to rise above about 40% (exceptional circumstances may see more). Of the remainder, at least a third will tend to be scribes, and the rest are seers who concern themselves with day-to-day living and small scale issues.

Scribes
Scribes never join a forum, and rarely discuss their predictions until they have been observed for some time, considered, carefully recorded and subsequently submitted to the 'Elemental Archives' (I'll get to them some other time...this rant is a bit rantier than usual already). Once this has been done, debate and study of related predictions takes up most of a scribe's time. Sometimes a scribe or two will 'enlist' a forum which they have a vested interest in, sponsoring their study with information gleaned from the archives. In such cases the consequences of the event in question are usually important enough to warrant the attention of a significant number of seers, and large schisms have been known to form within elven society for the duration of such events.

Once the event is passed, elves have a remarkable ability to draw a line under what has already happened, seeking no vengeance, holding no grudges (except in extreme cases), and looking ever forward, to the next event. Throughout these transitions, many scribes will have nothing to do with the event, focusing instead on their own long-reaching goals, watching, waiting and preparing for the time when such events should clarify and their time to act comes.

DracoDei

2013-06-16, 11:23 PM

I really like how you have prophecy work. What, if anything, were your inspirations?

Veklim

2013-06-17, 06:14 AM

There's a touch of the Bene Gesserit to it I suppose, and maybe a sniff of Tolkein's Palantiri, but mostly it's out of my own head. It just seems to be how predictive powers SHOULD function, there's an event horizon of sorts where possibilities become probabilities, and then become certainties, and I wanted to translate that thought into something which makes sense and is game-implement friendly. This way, it's not only a useful and potentially misleading dramatic tool, but also a workable ability which can be used by a DM without fear of 'time-locking' events prematurely.

Glad you like it, I find it so much easier to assist brews via rant, and many people don't have the patience for my Wall of Text :P

[EDIT]
Whilst I'm here...

The Elemental Achives
What's the use of having prophetic visions of the future if there's no way of recording them which is widely accessible to other seers? The first Elves asked themselves this question, and as a result the Elemental Archives were formed. There exists a technique of elemental control which allows a seer to permanently 'scar' a small part of the world with an unnaturally implemented portion of their element called an anchor. Be it a small spring which issues water from nowhere, an oddly geometric series of rock formations, an area of blustery wind on an otherwise calm day or patterned scorch marks which mar the great plains, no matter how many years they have been there. The physical marks may vary, but their purpose is identical, they are places where any prophecy submitted to the archives may be 'remembered' by any seer of the appropriate element. There are hundreds of anchors across the plane, all linked through their specific element to each other, if you submit a vision in rock from the top of the southern mountains, a seer on the northern isles may peer into the archive cliffs and watch it.

Once an event submitted to the archives has passed or become impossible it fades from them. The history of the Elves is all written down, but prophecy is never committed to static script until such time as the events come to pass. It is believed that seers who write down prophecy before it comes to pass are no longer merely foreseeing, but trying to 'Dictate Fate', a crime from which only exile or death can result.

Only scribes and a handful of older seers have the knowledge required to submit visions to the archives, and often a forum or seer will request aid from one to submit something they believe to be important enough. It takes at least a day to submit even the simplest of visions, and more complex ones have been known to take closer to a month to be inscribed, but once there, any seer may access it from any anchor to which their element corresponds.

In all but the rarest of cases, a vision submitted will be of a long distant event or person. These prophecies will be examined, studied and compared to others by countless other seers, sparking discussions, debates and preparations well in advance of the moment the prophecy either clarifies or fades. Scribes often devote large parts of their time to cross-analysis of the Elemental Archives, hoping to piece together the incomplete jigsaw of thousands of visions across hundreds of years.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-17, 06:40 AM

Veklim

2013-06-17, 08:34 AM

:smallbiggrin:

Added the Elemental Archives idea to above post as an edit (knew I should've posted new!):smalltongue:

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-18, 01:38 PM

I was sick for the last couple of days, so I hadn't gotten much work done on the updates. However, as I've been feeling better today, I've been working on the OP in some detail - moving things around, better explaining certain details, so on. I've also added elemental attunement, and in this section more stuff will be coming up soon. Once all this is done, Ultimate Fate will commence in earnest. Thanks for all the input based on my details so far! I'm pretty keen on a few things that are mentioned. :smallsmile:

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-20, 07:56 AM

Alright, so I have some things writen out. How do these look?

Attunement
As an adolescent Elvori begins to experience and learn about the world, they come into contact with various natural concentrations and combinations of the elements. Weather, gravity, the seasons - nearly everything they experience applies to the elements. In addition, through their studies of the elements as well as observing seers that are already attuned, they see examples of how these natural elements can be manipulated.

Eventually, every young seer makes the choice of which element they will attune. This choice can be based on many factors - desire, talent, social pressure, or even a calling - a feeling of being drawn by the element itself. For some, the choice is obvious. For others, it may take years for the choice to be reached. Even so, the studies of a young seer cover all the basic features of all four elements, to give a greater knowledge to how the world works, and how the elements interact with each other.

Improvement of Senses

Upon embracing a specific element, a seers body begins to adjust itself to be better attuned to the element. The most recognizable of these adjustements is a heightened physical sense that is conditional to which element they chose. Water seers gain a keener taste and smell, while wind seers have better hearing. Fire seers have an excelled vision, and earth seers recieve a heightened touch. Fortunately, this change is gradual, and so a seer has time to get used to this new ability, and not be overwhelmed by it.

Secondary Attunement

Commonly, a seer only attunes to one element, but under certain conditions, two attunements can be attained. The force of Fate must be in power for someone to have multiple attunements, because during this time, a seer's connection to the elements is closer, and capable of more. As a note, Ultimate Fate can only be accomplished in an Age of Fate as well.

If a seer chooses to attune to multiple elements, they must first be already attuned to an element. This is because the process of attunement is a dedicated and complex process. Trying to do two at once would be to counteract the efforts that must be involved. Due to the relationship a seer has with their element, a secondary attunement cannot be an opposite element. So, if a seer was attuned to water, they could choose for a secondary element earth or wind, but they could not attune to fire. This rule is also why a seer could not attune to a third element, because any other element after the first two attunements would be an opposing element.

A seer who has accomplished two attunements has the same amount of power as someone who is only attuned to one, which means they must divide this power between the two. A seer can choose to have both of their elements a similar level of power with each other (1/2 and 1/2), or have one compliment the other (1/4 vs. 3/4).

(I do have some considerations on changing this, such as the fact that since opposite elements are two sides of the same system.)

Area of Interaction
When a seer attunes to an element, they begin growing more accustomed to the element in which they are connected to. At first, this interaction is at a personal range. This means a seer can only interact with or manipulate an element by direct contact with the intended element. However, as a seer progresses in their powers and becomes better attuned, this range extends out to encompass an area of distance around the seer. It should be remembered that a seer can still manipulate things by physical touch in addition to now being able to manipulate at a range.

As the area of interaction of the seer expands past physical touch, a seer gains insight of the elements in which they are attuned to within this sphere. Also, since a seer can now sense the element within a certain range, they can also manipulate the element within that area. A seer can also focus on the area they interact with to identify which specific kinds of their attuned element are within their area if interaction, as well as the amount. A seer can then use this information to aid them in their manipulations. For example, if a water seer had an area of interaction that was 60 feet in diameter, they could sense what specific liquids were around them in a 30 foot radius, and where they were. This ability would prove especially useful for the seer if they were trying to detect a liquid underground or behind a wall, as other elements do not interfere with this ability.

The only definite way to tell what element or elements a seer is attuned to is through physical contact between two seers. The contact must last for more than a brief touch for this to occur. Customarily, Elvori etiquette calls for an unfamiliar seer to offer their hand in greeting to show that they do not wish to hide their attunement from their host. If a host chooses to grasp the hand of the stranger, they are accepting the offered knowledge. Class difference however affects this exchange - those of higher class are entitled to grasp hands with someone of a lower class. A refusal to accept a hand shake in this circumstance is a sign of disrespect.

Still, in observing the actions of a seer, one might be able to tell what elemental attunement a seer might possess without touching them. For example, say an observer had a rare stone in their pocket. One might be able to deduce that the observed seer is an earth seer if their eyes darted to that pocket, or some other similar tell that showed the seer was aware of your pocket's contents. One might also be able to distinguish a seer based on the physical changes they have gained through attunement.

So, what do you folks think? Do you like what I've done with the options? Is something not explained enough? Is there anything you think doesn't fit very well? I'd love to hear some thoughts on this. :smallwink:

Amidus Drexel

2013-06-20, 11:29 AM

Due to the relationship a seer has with their element, a secondary attunement cannot be an opposite element. So, if a seer was attuned to water, they could choose for a secondary element earth or water, but they could not attune to fire.

So, what do you folks think? Do you like what I've done with the options? Is something not explained enough? Is there anything you think doesn't fit very well? I'd love to hear some thoughts on this. :smallwink:

I think you mean earth or air, not water again. :smallwink:

I like it, and it all makes sense how you've put it together. Just to make sure I've got it right; anything that the seer can sense at range, they can manipulate, right?

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-20, 11:36 AM

Nice catch on my error. I'll go fix that.

As for your suposition - correct, should I state that a bit more bluntly? Or were you just making sure you got it?

LPlate

2013-06-20, 01:43 PM

What is an Age of Fate? What does it mean for a force of fate to be in power?

Attunement

Improvement of Senses
Upon embracing a specific element, a seers body begins to adjust itself to be better attuned to the element. The most recognizable of these adjustements is a heightened physical sense that is conditional to which element they chose. Water seers gain a keener taste and smell, while wind seers have better hearing. Fire seers have an excelled vision, and earth seers recieve a heightened touch. Fortunately, this change is gradual, and so a seer has time to get used to this new ability, and not be overwhelmed by it.

Linking taste and smell makes sense but here's an alternative suggestion given that there's 5 senses and 4 elements.
Water: taste
Air: smell
Earth: touch
Fire: hearing (I was thinking of the roar of the fire but sight would work as well)
Point is that one sense is left over leading to debate among the elves;
Is there a fifth unrecognised element?
Does the fifth sense correspond with true balance? If different seers working together could improve the fifth sense, it would support that view.
Is the fifth sense linked purely to perception of future fate?
Does over reliance on the fifth sense (sight) make it more difficult to attune to an element? Might contribute to rarity of seers. It could also mean that trainees spend a lot of time blind folded.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-20, 02:44 PM

What is an Age of Fate? What does it mean for a force of fate to be in power?

Here's a bit of information about the world on the Mother thread for this sister project.

Crucial to the make up of this world are three basic forces that make up this world, and the races that are connected to them. Magic. Fate. And Luck.

Magic = Sentience, Perception, and Belief
Fate = Physics, the Elements, and Predicting the Future
Luck = Biology, Adaption, and Evolution

The three forces all cycle into which is in power, as seasons might, though these cycles take much more time than a year to do so. Each transition to a different force marks the start of a new age. Naturally, an age is estimated to be about 500 years, though events can interrupt or extend the period of a cycle as well. When one force is in power, the other two are passive, diminishing or increasing the powers of the races attuned to them respectively.

The three forces interact naturally with each other, complimenting or contrasting each other in various ways. Each force has one race that it is attuned to, and so these specific races are able to manipulate and use the forces. Some products of these powers have similar results, and some very unique. Magic interacts well with both Luck and Fate, but Fate and Luck don't mix well together on a power relation. For example, Fate users cannot affect anything living, while luck users cannot animate non-living things. Meanwhile, Magic bends reality, so can effect both. In a way, Magic cannot exist without the existence of both Luck and Fate, because it is a product of the two.

__

Linking taste and smell makes sense but here's an alternative suggestion given that there's 5 senses and 4 elements.
Water: taste
Air: smell
Earth: touch
Fire: hearing (I was thinking of the roar of the fire but sight would work as well)
Point is that one sense is left over leading to debate among the elves;
Is there a fifth unrecognised element?
Does the fifth sense correspond with true balance? If different seers working together could improve the fifth sense, it would support that view.
Is the fifth sense linked purely to perception of future fate?
Does over reliance on the fifth sense (sight) make it more difficult to attune to an element? Might contribute to rarity of seers. It could also mean that trainees spend a lot of time blind folded.

The idea for the senses is they align with the properties of each element pretty well. Fire consists of a whole lot of light. In fact, it takes up half of the electromagnetic spectrum (the side with infrared and such), so I thought it would be good for seeing things better, seeing things thermally, and so on.

Wind has to do with light to, but more its allowing light to shine through the ozone, while blocking others. Either way, it has more to do with sound. Only the wind elves can manipulate sound, and sound waves bounce and have a lot to do with motion. Things cause sound when they move. So on.

Water having just one sense (taste OR smell) compared to the other larger senses (not that either is something to discount as a sense) seemed a little unbalanced, until I realized that smell and taste are actually connceted senses. I was originally just going to do taste, and leave smell alone, but I really didn't like leaving one out. While I like to give subjects for the elves to debate, I'd like it to be amoung some other things, and even between users of the other forces (magic and luck) as well. Also, I read this about catfish and thought it could be great for a water seer -

Catfish also have chemoreceptors across their entire bodies, which means they "taste" anything they touch and "smell" any chemicals in the water.

For Earth, touch made sense for tremor sensing, and feeling different rocks and metals and such.

In each example, we see the sense aiding the seer with interacting with the element. And that's why I chose them. Does that make things a little clearer? Should I put some of this into the description?

BladeTempest

2013-06-20, 03:07 PM

I have nothing to contribute at the moment but know this thread has one more lurker.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-20, 03:24 PM

I have nothing to contribute at the moment but know this thread has one more lurker.

Welcome! It's always nice to see more interest, and while I understand not having anything to contribute, feel free to chime in at any time. :smallsmile:

May I ask what parts of this bring you in as a lurker? In otherwords, what things do you like?

Amidus Drexel

2013-06-20, 03:44 PM

As for your suposition - correct, should I state that a bit more bluntly? Or were you just making sure you got it?

A little bit of both. Looking through that again, you did mention it, just not where I thought you had. It's probably worth stating again a second time in the paragraph that deals with sensing the elements at range, even if it's just a short sentence at the end of the paragraph.

The idea for the senses is they align with the properties of each element pretty well. Fire consists of a whole lot of light. In fact, it takes up half of the electromagnetic spectrum (the side with infrared and such), so I thought it would be good for seeing things better, seeing things thermally, and so on.

Wind has to do with light to, but more its allowing light to shine through the ozone, while blocking others. Either way, it has more to do with sound. Only the wind elves can manipulate sound, and sound waves bounce and have a lot to do with motion. Things cause sound when they move. So on.

Water having just one sense (taste OR smell) compared to the other larger senses (not that either is something to discount as a sense) seemed a little unbalanced, until I realized that smell and taste are actually connceted senses. I was originally just going to do taste, and leave smell alone, but I really didn't like leaving one out. While I like to give subjects for the elves to debate, I'd like it to be amoung some other things, and even between users of the other forces (magic and luck) as well. Also, I read this about catfish and thought it could be great for a water seer -

For Earth, touch made sense for tremor sensing, and feeling different rocks and metals and such.

While I personally have no problem with this, I'd like to point out that smells carry better through air than they do in water (at least to humans - granted, we're normally not using our noses much when we're underwater), and sound carries better through water than it does through air. The way you've got it makes sense too, I just felt those were worth mentioning.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-20, 03:56 PM

A little bit of both. Looking through that again, you did mention it, just not where I thought you had. It's probably worth stating again a second time in the paragraph that deals with sensing the elements at range, even if it's just a short sentence at the end of the paragraph.

I'll try that. Thanks!

While I personally have no problem with this, I'd like to point out that smells carry better through air than they do in water (at least to humans - granted, we're normally not using our noses much when we're underwater), and sound carries better through water than it does through air. The way you've got it makes sense too, I just felt those were worth mentioning.

These are points I did not know...well, at least partly. Might have to do some research on the sound in water thing. And while smell does carry better through air, I think I'll look into what smell is a bit closer.

BladeTempest

2013-06-20, 04:17 PM

Welcome! It's always nice to see more interest, and while I understand not having anything to contribute, feel free to chime in at any time. :smallsmile:

May I ask what parts of this bring you in as a lurker? In otherwords, what things do you like?

TBH I just liked reading what you had in the OP Just before I commented. I don't know really. Maybe because back when I used to play the Arcanis campaign setting (published by Paradigm concepts and when it used the 3.5 rules) I loved playing as a Champion of Larissa, because they could tweak an individuals fate and luck and do some trippy things.

Amidus Drexel

2013-06-20, 04:28 PM

These are points I did not know...well, at least partly. Might have to do some research on the sound in water thing. And while smell does carry better through air, I think I'll look into what smell is a bit closer.

The reason why sound travels better in water is because sound waves rely on moving particles to carry the wave; water has a higher density of particles than air, so the waves travel further. It's why you can't hear any sound in a vacuum - there aren't any particles to carry the wave.

I remember reading an article on smell a while back... lemme see if I can find it. If there's an online copy, I'll post a link to it.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-20, 04:34 PM

And I've been busy! How's this look?

Elemental Fluctuations

In addition to the latent power a seer recieves from within as they progress through experience and age there is also natural tendancies of power recieved from the element itself. Each element acts differently, and so, each seer must be conscious of their element's fluctuations so that they can plan to use their element the most during times in which their power is at its greatest. For wind, this is difficult to do, for it is constantly in a state of fluctuation. In contrast, earth never fluctuates and is always at a steady power, never high or low. Water, however, - weak at first - builds up over time until it is used, and then must build up again. Fire on the other hand - strong at first - will get weaker as it progresses, and then flares back right as it is lowest.

@amidus - I think I like it how it is, because there inherited senses at their source help detect the elements they are attuned with. Taste and smell will assist with identifying liquids, and hearing will assist with identifying gasses in some ways. But do link me articles. I love learning. :smallsmile:

BladeTempest

2013-06-20, 05:41 PM

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-20, 05:57 PM

So just to make sure I am still on the right track with what is being discussed and posted. Fate (in this setting) is akin to divination with slightly different fluffs and a few different mechanics?

... unrelated to topic but related to a question you asked me before. I am most definitely not posting in more popular threads so my signature gets more exposure so my thread gets more attention. ¬.¬ nope not doing that at all cause that would be morally and ethically wrong. ¬.¬ ... ⌐.⌐

Erm....define divination? May want to read through the first post a bit more.

As for advertising, there's always the PEACH exchange thread - http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263949

I wouldn't exactly call this one of the more popular ones. Or at least, if it is, its mostly through me talking to people about it in other places or in messages, and then eventually arriving here. In fact, I think you're the second to comment that I hadn't already discussed this thread with first. :smallbiggrin:

But I don't need quantity! I've got quality! *beams at other contributers*

BladeTempest

2013-06-20, 06:03 PM

Bad choice of words with the divination bit?

i more or less meant that: if element x is moving in direction y then this will change factors z leading to reaction R

Amidus Drexel

2013-06-20, 07:04 PM

Elemental Fluctuations

In addition to the latent power a seer recieves from within as they progress through experience and age there is also natural tendancies of power recieved from the element itself. Each element acts differently, and so, each seer must be conscious of their element's fluctuations so that they can plan to use their element the most during times in which their power is at its greatest. For wind, this is difficult to do, for it is constantly in a state of fluctuation. In contrast, earth never fluctuates and is always at a steady power, never high or low. Water, however, - weak at first - builds up over time until it is used, and then must build up again. Fire on the other hand - strong at first - will get weaker as it progresses, and then flares back right as it is lowest.

@amidus - I think I like it how it is, because there inherited senses at their source help detect the elements they are attuned with. Taste and smell will assist with identifying liquids, and hearing will assist with identifying gasses in some ways. But do link me articles. I love learning. :smallsmile:

That's an interesting idea... I'm not quite sure if I understand the difference between how water and fire work, though. Could you explain that to me?

Say you have one person attuned to fire, and they use their power over the element once. How does it work afterwards? Same with water.

I've found it (http://www.popsci.com/archive-viewer?id=nPuZMcLtXt8C&pg=46&query=Taste%20food), although it appears the article was more on taste rather than on smell (granted, they're similar senses). It's worth a read if you've got the time, though. In case the link doesn't take you straight to the article (it should, but you never know), it's on page 46. The archive view is a little weird... I much prefer the paper copy, although that's a little difficult to send across the internet. :smallamused:

Veklim

2013-06-20, 07:26 PM

Basically, to put it in crude and arbitrary mechanics terms, fire starts off at high power, declines to low, then has 1 round at full before ending. Wind would essentially roll for power each turn (Wombat, remind me to post about numbers for this, had an idea which may help!).

But I don't need quantity! I've got quality! *beams at other contributers*
Winks back :smallwink:

Also, on topic of seasons, brief thought emerging from almost asleep brain, I'll make it quick. Each season has an element attached to it, and whereas the season makes no difference to the ebb and flow of fate itself, it might make it easier for a seer to use that element at that time of year, requiring less effort on account of the element's abundance. Just a thought, could expand later...probably...I sleep now. :smallsigh:

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-21, 08:35 AM

That's an interesting idea... I'm not quite sure if I understand the difference between how water and fire work, though. Could you explain that to me?

Say you have one person attuned to fire, and they use their power over the element once. How does it work afterwards? Same with water.

Oh look! A handy table! I'm getting good at these, thanks to certain silly games...:smallwink: Note that this isn't usually this quick of a progression, but as an example this will do.

-

Round 1

Round 2

Round 3

Round 4
Notes

Water

Weak

Medium

Strong until used

Stong until used
If used too much before strong, starts building up at weak again.

Fire

Strong

Medium

Weak

Recharge
When it burns out, it must recharge before it begins burning strongly again.

Earth
Medium
Medium
Medium
Medium
Earth is never strong, but never weak.

Wind
Strong
Weak
Medium
Strong
Rolling a D6, I got these results.

That make sense?

I've found it (http://www.popsci.com/archive-viewer?id=nPuZMcLtXt8C&pg=46&query=Taste%20food), although it appears the article was more on taste rather than on smell (granted, they're similar senses). It's worth a read if you've got the time, though. In case the link doesn't take you straight to the article (it should, but you never know), it's on page 46. The archive view is a little weird... I much prefer the paper copy, although that's a little difficult to send across the internet. :smallamused:

Next best thing! I'll start reading it now...

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-21, 09:52 AM

Next best thing! I'll start reading it now...

Actually, all I get is these words on a blank box-

Use the magnifying glass controls to zoom in and out on the page, and the search field inside the viewer to search for text in the currently visible issue.

Unable to load this issue.

Amidus Drexel

2013-06-21, 10:12 AM

Oh look! A handy table! I'm getting good at these, thanks to certain silly games...:smallwink: Note that this isn't usually this quick of a progression, but as an example this will do.

{table=head]-|
Round 1 |
Round 2 |
Round 3 |
Round 4 | Notes |
Water |
Weak |
Medium |
Strong until used |
Stong until used | If used too much before strong, starts building up at weak again. |
Fire |
Strong |
Medium |
Weak |
Recharge | When it burns out, it must recharge before it begins burning strongly again. |
Earth | Medium | Medium | Medium | Medium | Earth is never strong, but never weak.
Wind | Strong | Weak | Medium | Strong | Rolling a D6, I got these results.
[/table]

That make sense?

A little bit. I want to run through it and make sure I understand it, though. Correct me if I'm wrong here...

If a person attuned to fire does the same thing three (or more) times in a row, it gets progressively weaker until they decide to "recharge" their magic.

If a person attuned to water does the same thing X times in a row, it gets progressively stronger until they reach a threshold of some sort... and their magic becomes weak again. How does that work? What constitutes using too much of their power that it becomes weak again? Could a water seer just barely use their ability nigh-constantly for several years (allowing power to build up), and then suddenly move an ocean? (or something else similarly powerful within the scale of that seer's power). Am I right in assuming you mean that a water seer "recharges" their magic by using it?

Actually, all I get is these words on a blank box-

Use the magnifying glass controls to zoom in and out on the page, and the search field inside the viewer to search for text in the currently visible issue.

Unable to load this issue.

Odd. It's loading fine for me. Lemme see...

Ah, I see what the problem is. The site's ad redirects you to the archive page, but doesn't include the issue (or the page number, for that matter) in the url. Try it again and see if it works, and if it redirects you again, just copy/paste the full url afterwards: http://www.popsci.com/archive-viewer?id=nPuZMcLtXt8C&pg=46

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-21, 11:01 AM

A little bit. I want to run through it and make sure I understand it, though. Correct me if I'm wrong here...

If a person attuned to fire does the same thing three (or more) times in a row, it gets progressively weaker until they decide to "recharge" their magic.

If a person attuned to water does the same thing X times in a row, it gets progressively stronger until they reach a threshold of some sort... and their magic becomes weak again. How does that work? What constitutes using too much of their power that it becomes weak again? Could a water seer just barely use their ability nigh-constantly for several years (allowing power to build up), and then suddenly move an ocean? (or something else similarly powerful within the scale of that seer's power). Am I right in assuming you mean that a water seer "recharges" their magic by using it?

Alright, lets try this a different way. Lets say using the water element is like drinking. With water, think of it as slowly filling a cup. As the cup fills, there is some water to drink at first, and if you drink it right away, you'll have to start all over again. However, if you leave it alone, the water fills more and then you have more to drink if you want to drink the whole thing, or you could drink a little bit, which lowers the water level, but doesn't make it empty. Finally, you could let it flow until it's "full" at it's strongest, and leave it at level should you need that amount of power, and then drink the whole thing, some of it, or a little bit. Each would bring you down to a certain level.

Fire...yeah, that sounds right. Though when you phrase it like that, i makes me wonder if I should change it...

Odd. It's loading fine for me. Lemme see...

Ah, I see what the problem is. The site's ad redirects you to the archive page, but doesn't include the issue (or the page number, for that matter) in the url. Try it again and see if it works, and if it redirects you again, just copy/paste the full url afterwards: http://www.popsci.com/archive-viewer?id=nPuZMcLtXt8C&pg=46

And got it now. had to copy it. :smallcool:

Amidus Drexel

2013-06-21, 11:26 AM

Alright, lets try this a different way. Lets say using the water element is like drinking. With water, think of it as slowly filling a cup. As the cup fills, there is some water to drink at first, and if you drink it right away, you'll have to start all over again. However, if you leave it alone, the water fills more and then you have more to drink if you want to drink the whole thing, or you could drink a little bit, which lowers the water level, but doesn't make it empty. Finally, you could let it flow until it's "full" at it's strongest, and leave it at level should you need that amount of power, and then drink the whole thing, some of it, or a little bit. Each would bring you down to a certain level.

Fire...yeah, that sounds right. Though when you phrase it like that, i makes me wonder if I should change it...

Okay, I think I've got it... although I'm not sure if I see a big difference between water and fire magic right now.

Say you have a fire seer and a water seer, and both have just used a bunch of magic. (so, their magic is pretty weak as of now). How do each get their magic to be strong again?

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-21, 11:32 AM

Okay, I think I've got it... although I'm not sure if I see a big difference between water and fire magic right now.

Say you have a fire seer and a water seer, and both have just used a bunch of magic. (so, their magic is pretty weak as of now). How do each get their magic to be strong again?

The same way, though water will take longer than fire, since they charge differently.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-25, 10:58 AM

So I'm having a problem with something - the Conservation of energy law that still exists in my world - it states that energy cannot just be created out of nothing. It has to come from somewhere.

I know I want a seer to use energy to manipulate the elements. With Magic, I have it that casting is like any other activity a body performs, and so the body recovers similarly from it. A caster that has exhausted themselves casting can recover by means a person would commonly use to recover from normal exhaustion.

I wasn't sure if I wanted to have Fate be the same way or not. So an alternative-

I could make energy like my (or even connected to my) power progression, where a seer can use more energy as they advance in age....sort of like a connection to the overall entity of fate/the elements.

Perhaps I could have it where elves have their own energy, and also draw some energy from the element they are attuned to. Perhaps this could be kind of like a deity sort of thing.

Or maybe they need to draw from the area around them to get the energy to do so?

Just spitballing out ideas, really. Any thoughts or ideas?

Veklim

2013-06-25, 01:45 PM

The simplest solution to this for me would be to consider seers as capacitors, adrift in a world of energy, they slowly accumulate power (at the specific rates dictated by their element) all the time. That accumulation rate can be influenced positively or negatively dependant on environment, i.e. a water seer would accumulate energy faster by a lakeside ona rainy day than they would in an arid desert, but either way they would slowly charge up, just by being around the elements themselves. This would have an odd effect on an Elvori's immediate surroundings, causing the air to be cooler perhaps, or the wind to be reduced, they wouldn't get very wet in a storm or maybe be able to walk with impudence through a sandstorm without facial covering...basically a little of the elemental energies surrounding them are constantly absorbed...

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-25, 01:48 PM

Veklim

2013-06-25, 04:24 PM

Nah, they absorb some of the energy from around them, they don't literally suck in vast quantities of it! :smalltongue:
What it WOULD mean is an area of coastline populated by Elvori would have far calmer tidal patterns whilst they are there, if anyone were to force them from that area, the full force of the elements would take hold there again, that kinda thing.

It would allow Elvori to survive, travel through and live in harsh and remote areas comparably easily, and go a long way towards explaining the odd sensation other races get when around the Elvori. Of course it's only an idea! :smallwink:

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-26, 07:51 AM

LPlate

2013-06-26, 08:59 AM

I do like the idea. I'm just considering implications. Most of the elements it would be easy to see how they fit in really well, but I'm having trouble thinking how this would work for earth.

Earth doesn't have to be an issue. As the element associated most with stasis, drawing on the energy doesn't need to have a readily apparent effect in many cases. The earth might become more still but not in a way discernable to most men. The sheer mass of earth (i.e. the world) means that it is effectively an endless reservoir of energy. This would fit with why earth seers can continuously expend a constant level of energy.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-26, 09:18 AM

Earth doesn't have to be an issue. As the element associated most with stasis, drawing on the energy doesn't need to have a readily apparent effect in many cases. The earth might become more still but not in a way discernable to most men. The sheer mass of earth (i.e. the world) means that it is effectively an endless reservoir of energy. This would fit with why earth seers can continuously expend a constant level of energy.

This is a good point. However, in Veklim's suggested examples, it seemed absorbing energy did the opposite effect to the area that the element did:

Wind seers having stiller air around them.
Water seers calming the tides, or getting less wet.

Hmmm...though this seems to me like it might serve my purpose to connect energy with elemental fluctuations, or power as a whole.

Veklim

2013-06-26, 10:17 AM

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-26, 10:25 AM

That was the general intention actually, using it to unify the system a little and give it some simple boundaries. Earth and fire seers could set up around a volcano if they had the numbers for it, since tectonic activity would reduce a fair bit of the danger, it's stuff like that which would allow them to stay safe whilst being so remote.

Using it to explain the fluctuations of power just simplifies the whole system I think, without compromising the integrity of it.

So in other words - power = energy. Elves gain a more energy as they age, granted to them by the elemental entities they attune to (sort of like a trust of more energy as they progress) and they can use the elemental fluctuations as their means of recharging this energy for use, as well as naturally gaining it back by rest, and other means. To further the efficiency of rest, a seer could sleep near an area of their element, so for example, water seers near a body of water, or earth seers underground.

Is that sort of what you were suggesting?

(also, Veklim, I'm supposed to be reminding you about the numbers with the fluctuations?) edit: see as reference -

Basically, to put it in crude and arbitrary mechanics terms, fire starts off at high power, declines to low, then has 1 round at full before ending. Wind would essentially roll for power each turn (Wombat, remind me to post about numbers for this, had an idea which may help!).

SamBurke

2013-06-26, 11:08 AM

For the "characteristic fluctuations" of Earth Seers, perhaps everything flattens out? Rough roads become smooth, holes fill in, and so on? It'd be pretty cool, AND it would tie in nicely to the whole theme of EarthSeers being very level and "medium"-y.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-26, 11:40 AM

That could work. So, then we'd have -

Earth - Always a steady source of energy, never fluctuating. Comes in a constant stream. Absorbing energy from this element smooths out areas of terrain over time, creating flatter areas, or gradual slopes instead of rocky and rough terrain.

Water - A source of energy that accumulates, akin to a basin being filled with liquid. The liquid in the basin can be tapped anytime while it is filling, and will continue to fill until it is at capacity. Any tapped energy while filling just sets back the accumulation. Absorbing energy from this element might make freezing areas a little more comfortable, or make tidal patterns calmer.

Wind - Always a fluctuating source of energy, never steady. Comes in a varying stream. Absorbing energy from this element might calm winds, or be protected from harsh winds.

Fire - A source if energy that dissipates, akin to fuel being burned away. The fuel will continue to burn away until it is burned out, and then new energy must be accumulated. Unlike water, energy cannot be tapped when it is being replenished with fire. Absorbing energy from this element might make seering hot areas cooler and more comfortable, or make active volcanos calmer.

SamBurke

2013-06-26, 04:09 PM

HEY! Those explanations make a lot of sense... especially fire/waters', as they sort of clear things up.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-28, 07:40 AM

So you guys know, I'm on vacation next week. I'll likely still be able to post on here (maybe), but on top of that - my hard drive in my computer is apparently failing. I'm currently backing it up, and then I'll be replacing the hard drive - luckily I have applecare, so the new one is free. If I'd had a PC, I'd be screwed right now. :smallcool:

So in other words, I may or may not be effected in my posting, but I figured I might as well mention it. :smallwink:

Amidus Drexel

2013-06-28, 12:48 PM

Earth - Always a steady source of energy, never fluctuating. Comes in a constant stream. Absorbing energy from this element smooths out areas of terrain over time, creating flatter areas, or gradual slopes instead of rocky and rough terrain.

Water - A source of energy that accumulates, akin to a basin being filled with liquid. The liquid in the basin can be tapped anytime while it is filling, and will continue to fill until it is at capacity. Any tapped energy while filling just sets back the accumulation. Absorbing energy from this element might make freezing areas a little more comfortable, or make tidal patterns calmer.

Wind - Always a fluctuating source of energy, never steady. Comes in a varying stream. Absorbing energy from this element might calm winds, or be protected from harsh winds.

Fire - A source if energy that dissipates, akin to fuel being burned away. The fuel will continue to burn away until it is burned out, and then new energy must be accumulated. Unlike water, energy cannot be tapped when it is being replenished with fire. Absorbing energy from this element might make searing hot areas cooler and more comfortable, or make active volcanoes calmer.

Alright, that makes a lot more sense. I guess fire seers normally live in hot places, so they're never too far away from a source of heat when they need to re-accumulate their energy?

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-06-28, 01:26 PM

Alright, that makes a lot more sense. I guess fire seers normally live in hot places, so they're never too far away from a source of heat when they need to re-accumulate their energy?

True, but the sun can also assist with that in a pinch. :smallwink:

DracoDei

2013-06-28, 05:49 PM

I've kinda locked up about helping you with making sure all the interesting aspects of real-world physics etc are covered by your elemental system.

Very sorry, but I think I need to drop the idea of helping with that. You seem to have moved past it anyway. I can probably answer more specific questions about science though.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-07-09, 09:46 AM

SamBurke

2013-07-09, 09:53 AM

I never really got much from you in that capacity anyway, so its all good. I'll let you know if I have a specific question.

So I take it you're back, and it's time to get ta business?

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-07-09, 10:31 AM

I'm back, and saddling up for the next attack! List of things still needed to be finished so we can progress to Ultimate Fate.

* Explaining Power Progression in a way that makes sense. Yes, as they get older and more experienced, they gain more power. Yes, power is the amount of energy you can exert to accomplish something with your element. But if elemental fluctuations show one detail of how one can recharge their energy, than where are they getting the greater capacity from? I keep saying "from the elements/fate" but, what does that really mean? Is it a becoming more like the element? Becoming more familiar? Initially, it was that the elvori are entrusted with more control of the element BY the element, but to what extent does that make the element sentient? Each a deity? 4 parts of the whole of fate, making fate sentient? I just am not sure how far down the rabbit hole I want to go with it.

*Physical Appearance of the Elvori. Originally, the Elvori were born into the element they would control, so they exhibited characteristics for their element. Now that they can choose, I can't do that, so I have to have a base appearance for the elves, and perhaps their appearance changes some after they attune over time. Not certain. I'd welcome input on this. This is also important because I've shown with magic that the Ancients have telepathy, which is ideal for the force they are able to interact with, so I felt it would be ideal to find something like that that the Elvori have in that capacity.

*I think that's it, but I'm sure I'm missing something. I should have left notes for myself before I left. :smallbiggrin:

DracoDei

2013-07-10, 12:47 AM

I like the idea of attunement causing a slow change to appearance.

Veklim

2013-07-10, 05:55 AM

I like the idea of attunement causing a slow change to appearance.
So do I, and the thought leads me to a second one which could solve both your issues with one stone...lemme explain;

The older and more connected an Elvori becomes to his element, the more of it's characteristics 'rub off' on the seer. As age progresses, powerful Elvori become less and less like their race, and more and more like an Elvori-shaped elemental. This continues until such time as the seer dies, be it natural causes or not, whereupon their body joins with their element permanently (burns up, sublimes into gases, turns to stone or water) and a portion of their consciousness joins others within the element itself. This means the 'intelligence' behind each element is essentially a concert of dead Elvori ancestors who have broken the bonds of mortality by merging within their element.

This intelligence is not even vaguely a mortal one, or even a straightforward single mind, but rather a collection of ideas, ideals and memories which flow through their element in complex patterns. It is this conglomerate consciousness, rather than the element itself, which reaches into the past and the future (time being less relevant when you're an elemental force of nature) and whispers possibilities to those who know how to hear.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-07-10, 08:42 AM

So do I, and the thought leads me to a second one which could solve both your issues with one stone...lemme explain;

The older and more connected an Elvori becomes to his element, the more of it's characteristics 'rub off' on the seer. As age progresses, powerful Elvori become less and less like their race, and more and more like an Elvori-shaped elemental. This continues until such time as the seer dies, be it natural causes or not, whereupon their body joins with their element permanently (burns up, sublimes into gases, turns to stone or water) and a portion of their consciousness joins others within the element itself. This means the 'intelligence' behind each element is essentially a concert of dead Elvori ancestors who have broken the bonds of mortality by merging within their element.

This intelligence is not even vaguely a mortal one, or even a straightforward single mind, but rather a collection of ideas, ideals and memories which flow through their element in complex patterns. It is this conglomerate consciousness, rather than the element itself, which reaches into the past and the future (time being less relevant when you're an elemental force of nature) and whispers possibilities to those who know how to hear.

Hmmm...this was a thought I'd had once or twice, but I have two concerns-

1. It sounds really similar to the memory libraries I have for the Ancients, where they leave their memories archived for other Ancients to view. I know that there are some differences, but...hrm. Well, I guess there originally had to be an awareness originally, and the seers could be merging with that awareness. Plus, it being similar might not be a negative. Alright, we'll go with that. :smallsmile:

2. What qualities would the Elvori take on over time, and how would it effect how they interact with the world?

These are my original notes to the appearance of the 4 kinds of Elvori -

Fire - Warm to the touch. Dark skinned. Eyes greys and browns.

Earth - Tough skinned. I imagined patches of moss and plants growing on them, perhaps from parts of their skin becoming rocky and fertile, and seeds have grown purchace there (maybe even in fashion statement). Tanned with white freckles. Eyes browns and greens.

Water - Webbings on hands and toes, cool to the touch. Pale skinned. Eyes greens and blues.

Wind - Wings on back, perhaps connected to arms and run down back, possibly hairless. Eyes blues and greys.

I do like the fact that old old old elves are like walking elementals, but perhaps that's one path an elf can take. I once therorized that an elf could follow the path of the wild - in which they invest more energy to reach further into the element than others, at the cost of a continual loss of themselves physically, as they become more like their element.

Then again, how would that exactly work? How does one become "more liquidy" and hold up well? More earthy? More windy? How does one sustain themself when they become more elemental? In these cases, are they using up pieces of themselves to use their elemental control, and then to recharge, they have to reform those pieces?

JBPuffin

2013-07-10, 06:30 PM

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-07-11, 01:11 PM

I've got an idea for your elf-to-element evolution. It ties into the prophecy aging, and "elemental collective consciousness" ideas.
You ever read about the Genasi? They are essentially people who have an element fused into them; their skin is different colors depending on their element, as is their ability to have hair (and what that hair is) and their racial powers. For the Elvori, it could be as follows:

An Elvori would attune themselves at an early age (say 13ish?). At that point, their skin changes colors. Over time, their hair is replaced by an elemental version (flames, rock chunks, seaweed-type stuff, etc.), and their bodies in general began to appear more...elementy: fire elves may have actual fire running through their veins, earth elves' skin begins to crack and become stone-like, water elves become more fluid and flexible, and wind elves begin to lose weight.

At the maximum age of their race, an elf suddenly and swiftly becomes part of the element spritually and physically; while an elf's spirit becomes part of the Force it was attuned to, their bodies become eternal respresentation of it. Thus, a fire elf becomes a fire, wind elf a gas, earth a type of stone and water a type of liquid. These things become permanent; thus, dead fire elves burn eternally, you might drink a water elf on accident, an earth elf's stone cannot erode, and a wind elf's cloud never dissapates. The Elvori have jars that these "Marks" are contained in, and it is these Marks that are used to record prophecies; thus, the dead literally become part of the elves' history as a race.

Welcome to the thread! Its always nice to see new faces!

The whole turning into a permanant version of the element might be interesting, but what about - they turn into rare forms of it? Like Earth seers turn into gemstones, or something of the sort. Perhaps certain periodic elements can only exist when they are created by dead elvori.

Appearing more elementally is a great concept, I just want to be careful with it. It would be interesting if the Elvori used to be attune to elements genetically, and then at some point discovered they could actually choose which they wanted to have. If that were the case, we have 4 specific sub-species of elvori that look very different (similar to how we as humans have different races based on areas). So for example, we could have it that Fire seers as a race primarily had redish or blonde hair. However, now that any seer can pick any element, those customary appearances no longer apply as much. However, I don't someone who's heritage is a family of fire seers to have their body start looking like water seers. More like I want their appearance to take on both qualities in tandem.

I know I want the attunement to affect the appearance based on the sensory improvement as well - like wind seers have longer ears, fire seers have different eyes (since they can see infrared). Not sure how to go about touch and taste/smell.

Still, I like this hair change idea, as well as a few other things, and the over time turning more and more like their element. I just would like to refine it more.

EDIT: Also, a thought - what would elves with more than one element attuned look like?

Veklim

2013-07-11, 08:56 PM

I see the issue with this idea being largely about what happens to multiple element seers more than anything else. I mean, smell/taste would be large and pronounced nose, lips and tongue, touch could be elongated and wide-tipped fingers, those bits aren't an issue...perhaps the mechanics should state that a primary element is essential, and that would be the one which showed prominence physically? You could have it that a secondary (or even tertiary) element could manifest in unusually coloured veins or tracery, perhaps a fiery streak in otherwise crystalline-like hair...hrm.

As fas as what is left behind when an old/powerful seer dies, maybe it could tie in with my Elemental Archives concept (if you like the idea enough to develop it) whereby the seer joins the nearest Anchor point for their element upon death..? A living fire sweeping up a volcano or a cloud suddenly coalescing and ascending could be a wonderful visual and a reasonable mechanic, all at once. It stands to reason that a powerful enough seer would foresee their own death, perhaps elder seers go to their favourite Anchor when their time is near, voluntarily merging when death approaches?

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-07-15, 01:05 PM

Sorry for my lack of response, it was a busy real life weekend.

I'm currently working on reflavoring the physique of the elvori so that they aren't exactly like humans save "prettier" and with "pointed ears". Nor do I want them to look like celtic fey.

Evolutionally, they will be related to both dragons and ancient (both of which have a humanoid quality to them) so that everything humanoid is connected to the same family if you go back far enough.

Further, I'm studing ways I can exhibit the change of certain physical senses (the changes that are exhibited through attunement) without it being too drastic. When attunement first happens, these physical attributes will grow into effect. The attunement wakens certain dormant hormones (or "biles", as the greeks might have called it) within an elf, which begins the change within their bodies which cause these sensual upgrades to occur.

So far I have that the ears of the Wind seers grow longer, and are able to be manuvered slightly to assist with hearing.

A Fire Seer's eyes grow larger than that of any other elvori, and are able to see heat signatures as well as see farther and in low light. The pupils also dialate differently.

Earth Seers I was considering having tiny folicules like manatees do all over their bodies that feel and touch better than others. These would not be part of the nervous system, but more like hairs, so that when cut they don't have an increased amount of pain. Still, clothes would be hard to get used to. I've also had the consideration of making earth elves equivelent to dwarves, and have the sensory folicules appear to be hairy - so a dwarven beard is actually a sensory organ. Its a cool idea, buuuuuuuut I already have one origin of the dwarves figured out, so I'm not sure I want to go back on it.

Finally, cat fish have a skin that they can smell and taste with all over their bodies. I was thinking of something similar to this for the Water Seers, but wasn't sure.

Still mulling on the elemental side of things, but I think they'll fit in much more naturally once I finish deciding on the actual physique of an elvori in general. :smallbiggrin:

Veklim

2013-07-15, 04:53 PM

Just thought about the water seers a bit and have an idea or two for physicals adaptations...a forked tongue was first to mind, and sensory pits akin to those on a snake which run along the cheekbones perhaps..? Add gills for the (assumed) water breathing and they'd look quite obviously different.

Earth seers just seem like they should have big feet, hobbit style, always barefoot and quite hairy, maybe give them overszed hands too. I like the idea of hair all over for these guys, and similarly assumed they would forego clothing as much as possible.

Air and fire sound good already, simple and make sense.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-07-19, 01:19 PM

Alrighty. So after some conversation, consideration, and configuration, I have made a decision on just exactly what happens upon attunement to a seer physically. I decided to go the subtle route. I like the idea that other races without being familiar with the changes, would have a hard time telling the different seers apart. I also didn't want to get into gills, or webbed feet, or such when changing their bodies, that's too dramatic of a change. I felt this is a nice balanced way of doing it. Here goes:

---

Improvement of Senses

Upon choosing a specific element, the body of an Elvori begins to go through a set of changes, known as "Advancing" (or perhaps "Tempering" or "Focusing"?). The change begins with a mental awakening, where a seer can now have advanced interactions with the element they have chosen. Advancing also causes a specific hormone to be released into the seer's body. The element a seer choses dictates what physical changes the hormone will cause.

For a Water Seer, advancement causes their tongue to fork and their nose to flatten some, both of which improve the seer's taste and smell. For a Wind Seer, advancement causes their ears to become longer, and given the ability to be turned some, both of which improve the seer's sense of hearing. For a Fire Seer, advancement causes their eyes to grow larger, and the pupils to change slightly, both of which allow the seer to see in infrared if it chooses, but also allows for a better overall sense of vision. Last, for an Earth Seer, advancement causes their body to grow small, opaque, whisker-like hairs all over their body, which give the seer a hieghtened sense of touch.

Advancing also triggers a seer's body to begin changing into an adult, and allow the seer to begin to develop reproductively.

---
Thoughts?

Next up, what aging does to the appearance of the Elvori. :smallwink:

SamBurke

2013-07-19, 03:56 PM

Do all seers have the 4 hormones, or does that appear in their body when they choose?

If so, I imagine a wild alchemist could, theoretically, create disguise-hormones. Which would be wicked awesome.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-07-19, 04:25 PM

All seers have all four, they just produce a certain one when they attune, and the others go dormant. At the end of the Advancing/Focusing/Tempering stage, those hormone producers stop being able to function save the ones that activate. Which means all attunements need to happen during that stage.

Veklim

2013-07-19, 06:36 PM

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-07-19, 10:01 PM

Would this mean an Elvori could avoid making that decision, perhaps with medicinal aid, essentially choosing to remain pre-pubescent..? Or is this a change which happens when it happens and the choice MUST be made (with the awful repercusions we discussed). Second is my favourite but the other could lead to some interesting places...

awful repercussions, mostly, though with medicinal aid anythings possible. Think of a prepubescent as a eunick. Though what advantage an elvori might have to this, I'm not sure.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-07-22, 11:30 AM

LPlate

2013-07-22, 11:48 AM

Been thinking on that question more, and if it were possible to prevent an Elvori from being able to attune hormonally, others might try and "nueter" an Elvori, or even a group of them. :smalleek: Jeeeeeze...

There would likely even with medicinal aid be reprocussions. Perhaps the reason an Elvori lives longer is due to this attunement, and so their life span is stunted and such. Hrm....

Also, do you guys like - Advancing, Focusing, or Tempering better for "puberty" for the Elvori?

---

Ageing Characteristics

As a seer ages, the area immediately around them takes on more and more the appearance of their attuned element. This is mainly a visual representation of the amount energy a seer is able to gather. The older a seer gets, the more energy they can gather and use toward their element. For earth, this could be an aura of dust, while fire might cause a ripple in the air. Water may cause the air around a seer to be damp, and an air seer would seem to always have a breeze. These characteristics increase, and when a seer of some notable power uses this energy, the effect can appear to be their figure clothed in the element they are attuned.

---

Thoughts?

I prefer the area effects to extensive body remodelling (I don't regard the ears, eyes, etc bit as being extensive).
I like the neutering idea. Some might gain significant ability even without neutering but to gain the highest levels of mastery a big sacrifice had to be made early on. Did the seers choose the neutering, was it forced on them, are they bitter or accepting?
To avoid the neutering, some seer dynasties might be very controlling of their mating in order to cultivate powerful unneutered seers. This could bring in arranged marriages, strong class distinctions, kidnapping/forced marriages. Again, it gives you scope to look at what abuses people/Elvori will perform for power, even if they plan to use the power altruistically.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-07-22, 11:58 AM

I prefer the area effects to extensive body remodelling (I don't regard the ears, eyes, etc bit as being extensive).
I like the neutering idea. Some might gain significant ability even without neutering but to gain the highest levels of mastery a big sacrifice had to be made early on. Did the seers choose the neutering, was it forced on them, are they bitter or accepting?
To avoid the neutering, some seer dynasties might be very controlling of their mating in order to cultivate powerful unneutered seers. This could bring in arranged marriages, strong class distinctions, kidnapping/forced marriages. Again, it gives you scope to look at what abuses people/Elvori will perform for power, even if they plan to use the power altruistically.

I meant that neutering might disconnect an elvori from being able to attune.

EDIT: As for the physical remodelling, yeah, I was trying to get a similar feel without having them directly and permanently be becoming like the element. I'm thinking about implementing something known as "the embrace", where a seer becomes basically an elemental of their attunement for a time. And the whole ideas about elves when they die could work something like that, known as "the final embrace" where they become one with the element forever. Not that they continue on as an elemental, but as the element itself.

Veklim

2013-07-22, 01:36 PM

Think I like 'Tempering' the most for Elvori puberty, has a good sound to it.

The embrace thing is a nice idea, maybe it's simply what happens when an Elvori channels to their maximum extent, the aura pulling into the body and giving them a quasi-elemental appearance for the duration of the effect. The final embrace sounds perfect, perhaps it can only happen to an Elvori if they can accumulate enough elemental energy in their last moments. It might be possible for an Elvori to voluntarily meet the final embrace, I can see an old Elvori tiring of mortal matters and an ailing body, choosing instead to merge with their element at a time of their own choosing...just a thought.

SamBurke

2013-07-22, 04:57 PM

I really like Tempering as well, and Embrace is an awesome thought...

Maybe it's not just "at the end": they call it the LAST Embrace when you die, but before that, you can "embrace" the element to do cool stuff.

For example: embrace fire, and you start to lose a part of your personality, but your power level flares up. Or, you could start to burn things, A'la Midas' Touch, but with fire, in exchange for the ability to be hyper-precise.

I think if you did that, it might make the Element a little more alive, something that you can sort of tap into, like stepping into the waters of a river, and letting it push you forward.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-07-24, 01:32 PM

Alright folks! I've updated the OP quite a bit in specific areas. I've added the content about what visually aging does to an Elvori (aura's of energy) and updated the sensory changes, by adding a Tempering section.

To be worked on - what happens when an Elvori does not Attune, a Description of Elvori physically (how are they different from us physically), and The Embrace. Speaking of...

Think I like 'Tempering' the most for Elvori puberty, has a good sound to it.

The embrace thing is a nice idea, maybe it's simply what happens when an Elvori channels to their maximum extent, the aura pulling into the body and giving them a quasi-elemental appearance for the duration of the effect.

I really like Tempering as well, and Embrace is an awesome thought...

Maybe it's not just "at the end": they call it the LAST Embrace when you die, but before that, you can "embrace" the element to do cool stuff.

For example: embrace fire, and you start to lose a part of your personality, but your power level flares up. Or, you could start to burn things, A'la Midas' Touch, but with fire, in exchange for the ability to be hyper-precise.

I think if you did that, it might make the Element a little more alive, something that you can sort of tap into, like stepping into the waters of a river, and letting it push you forward.

Exactly. I thought it would be a nice explaination of what would happen to an Elvori physically without changing their make up. Then their appearance can be easily impressed, without making someone BE the element. Appear the form without BEING the form. Which solves a lot of the issues I'd been having with the idea. Embracing I'm thinking will have some major improvements to the capacity at which they can manipulate, but costs a LOT of energy to do. So in otherwords, seers recently attuned couldn't even try to do this. They'd need to get old enough first.

Wielding this power is no easy feat, either. Its really easy to lose yourself within the element, and with it could be some serious consequences...

The final embrace sounds perfect, perhaps it can only happen to an Elvori if they can accumulate enough elemental energy in their last moments. It might be possible for an Elvori to voluntarily meet the final embrace, I can see an old Elvori tiring of mortal matters and an ailing body, choosing instead to merge with their element at a time of their own choosing...just a thought.

I like this, and will likely mix this with the Elemental Conjoining idea, where they add themselves to some greater intelligence dedicated to their chosen element.

SamBurke

2013-07-24, 03:22 PM

Serious consequences to embracing...? You have my attention!

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-07-25, 07:12 AM

So! It's my birthday! So I've decided to do two things:

1. Opening up discussion on Ultimate Fate. A few pages back Veklim and LPlate mentioned it, and I liked their ideas, but I pushed them off a bit until Immediate Fate was done. Well, it just about is! So what do you folks think? Opinions?

2. I think I'm going to start a separate thread on Luck. I don't have a lot of ideas yet, but I figured it's time to get that ball rolling, especially now that I have a significantly better grasp on what Fate it.

@Sam - I have no idea what those negative affects might be for an embrace, I just know that I want there to be some. If you have any ideas, I'd love to hear! Perhaps something about the element controlling you instead of the other way around?

SO...any ideas, comments on what I've got so far, or whatever, send them my way. :smallwink: Lets finish this. :smallamused:

SamBurke

2013-07-25, 10:56 AM

Well, here are a few fluffy physical ones, some are better than others.

FIRE:
-Burning everything you touch.
-Incredible heat surrounding your body
-Perhaps you begin to sweat profusely? Sort of a sweat-lodge outdoors?
-Exhaustion, physically, for peak mental performance. Seems like an ironic tradeoff.

WATER:
-You're constantly producing water. Walking in puddles, mud, etc.
-Your veins become more watery. This leads to weakness, inability to move quickly or strongly, etc.
-The feeling of being waterboarded every time you use an ability. Have to push through it?
-You're always cold, always wet, and so on.

AIR:
-Surrounded by buffeting winds. Could drop things, have them pushed around, etc.
-Always floating. Like in a dream, you can't gain much purchase on the ground, so you're running, and barely keeping up with a walking pace. It renders you very immobile.
-Disorientation? Fluff it as someone messing with your inner ear's semi-circular canals.
-Perhaps whenever you touch something, it goes flying away? Knocked back by wind?

EARTH:
-Cracking the ground
-Making it harder, more painful to walk on
-Your body tensing up, sort of like lock-jaw or paralysis
-Skin so tough it begins to crack and flake. Painful! Unpleasant!

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-07-25, 02:00 PM

Alright folks, so I said I'd make it - Luck! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15691780#post15691780)

@Sam - I really like some of those, especially the Wind having little to know traction. I immediately saw link with his hover boots on. I'd say however, that flight would be possible for them while embraced.

Earth being immovable might be a reason an earth seer might embrace. They'd be able to withstand an attack, or perhaps a large tidal wave or some such.

Fire superheating things sounds like an advantage and disadvantage...but I like the idea of heatstroke...

Well, how about these
-Embracing takes up all the energy you have stored.
-There's a chance you lose control of the element, and you become something of a natural disaster. Wild fires and wind storms, torential flooding and centalized earth quakes.
-Your body might get wounded - burns, lesions, paralysis, so on.
-perhaps more.

Amidus Drexel

2013-07-25, 02:02 PM

Well, how about these
-Embracing takes up all the energy you have stored.
-There's a chance you lose control of the element, and you become something of a natural disaster. Wild fires and wind storms, torential flooding and centalized earth quakes.
-Your body might get wounded - burns, lesions, paralysis, so on.
-perhaps more.

Sounds good to me. I think I've got to go back and see exactly what Ultimate Fate is again...

Veklim

2013-07-25, 02:16 PM

That all sounds pretty good, but beyond the physical issues, I'd add at least one mental drawback for each element which would threaten to manifest (or perhaps just become far more apparent) whilst embracing, for example;
Earth seers would become incredibly stubborn and unrelenting.
Fire seers would have a flash temper, going from calm to incandescent almost instantly.
Air seers would become unfocused and easily distracted.
Water seers would become almost apathetically calm and disinterested.

Also, YAY LUCK!!! *goes and clicks link* I've been waiting for this for a year! :smallbiggrin:

SamBurke

2013-07-25, 02:39 PM

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-07-26, 08:14 AM

Glad you liked some 'o the ideas! I agree that there should be some mental problems as well. It seems like Embracing will have one of a few drawbacks:

-Lose control
-Gain too much of that element's mentality.
-Damage to your body
-Localized thematic natural disaster.

Seems like a great list!

I like this list as well. Thanks for being a sounding board both of you! Now to write it up and figure out where it would best fit....

Also, I'm trying to figure out some more disadvantages to an Elvori that doesn't attune aside from the obvious.

I'd say attunement and triggering Tempering is essential for survival for the Elvori. Think about it. Without attunement, they can't become reproductive, they can't connect with their aligned force, they can't interact with the world in any extraordinary capacity...I also suggested a shorter life span, as if the connection to a force creates a longer lifespan naturally.

If someone figured out a way to disconnect or prevent elves to attune, there could be a serious problem... AND it would be a very interesting storyline. It would likely cause an Age when Fate was in power to end prematurely, or be at end of when it would normally go to TO end it. I like the idea that history affects the ages as well as the ages affecting history.

SamBurke

2013-07-26, 09:51 AM

I think the idea of each influencing the other is quite good.

As to attunement... does that mean that all elves have their own specific element, no matter what? I didn't realize it would be everyone... I guess I was still thinking Avatar-style.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-07-26, 10:22 AM

As to attunement... does that mean that all elves have their own specific element, no matter what? I didn't realize it would be everyone... I guess I was still thinking Avatar-style.

How do you mean?

The when the elvori attune, they at this time choose which element they will attune to. This triggers Tempering. This attunement is only something that happens with the Elvori, and must happen, or there will be consequences. Yes, they must make the choice. They however do not need to choose a second element to attune to, even if Fate is in power.

SamBurke

2013-07-26, 10:38 AM

I was just asking if that was ALL Elvori, or if it was just a subset. So... attuning is a defining feature of their race?

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-07-26, 10:46 AM

I was just asking if that was ALL Elvori, or if it was just a subset. So... attuning is a defining feature of their race?

That is correct. Attunement is a unique quality that no other race can do. It's their "embracing" the force that is connected to them. Technically, the Ancients also do this with Magic, though its a bit different of a process, less extreame compared to the Elvori.

Veklim

2013-07-26, 01:24 PM

This isn't to say that all adult Elvori are powerful seers, some could spend their entire lives and be able to do little more than produce a small fire or stop a rosebush from wilting by dampening the ground. Not every Elvori will become a force of nature, but all tempered Elvori will be attuned to at least one element.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-07-26, 01:59 PM

Embracing is up in the Power and Energy section!

SamBurke

2013-07-27, 11:02 AM

I see it!

So is ultimate fate or immediate fate next?

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-07-27, 12:42 PM

I think we've talked extensively on Elvori who fail to attune, and the Physical description is something that doesn't need to happen right away (and I want to throw in a bit of culture for it as well, so I'm holding off).

So Ultimate Fate is next! Lets get this ball rolling.

Post 103 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15430640#post15430640), Post 104 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15432770#post15432770), and Post 106 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15447593#post15447593) discuss Ultimate Fate in some specific terms, and we actually started off the conversation a long time ago in Posts 2 - 22, though not much was defined back then. Still, we might be able to glean something from the comments there!

Remember, Ultimate Fate is predicting a future. I'm sure there's going to be fixed events, but remember, these predictions are going to be based on purely negative or positive fate, meaning there will always be duel eventualities in predictions. Elves must interpret the balance between positive and negatives so that the world doesn't lean too far in either direction.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-08-01, 10:05 AM

Alright, so I'm considering at the moment the process of Ultimate Fate. Since Ultimate Fate is limited to when the force of Fate is in power, I've been considering where it is pulled from. I'm guessing that whatever being closer to Fate does (like multiple attunements) also lets you have more perception to the way things are headed. This leads me to think that perhaps some simplistic predictions or intuition might still be possible for the Elvori even when Fate is not in power. Perhaps each kind of seer has a prefered method of lesser Ultimate - for Earth, it could be stone dice, for Water, a reading from tea leaves (as it is the water that places them), or drinking certain chemicals that put them into a heightened start, for Air, it might be an inhalent, or a thing they hear on the wind - a whisper. Fire might see visions, or have flashes of something, instinctually.

Then with advanced versions of this, we drop the need for halucinagens or states of mind, or reliance on a device. However, manifestations I wasn't sure on. Originally I was thinking all visual. As in, flashes of things and information, similar to how it is depicted with the Precogs in Minority Report. Basing this on its easiest to perceive and describe. I mean, think of dreams - they always have visual cues, sometimes sound, but not generally any other senses. Maybe touch sometimes. But its hard to have major occurances of premonition based on a taste/smell, or a feeling. Doesn't have enough information. I was thinking this visual occurance occured within the element of attunement. So I literally see something in the flames, or in the aurua borialis for Fire, a pool of liquid or in ice for Water, in the wind - the debrie picked up by it may form the image, or perhaps a non-clear gas for Wind, within the reflections of metal, or the smoothness of worn stone for Earth.

Either way, once these advanced premonitions occur, the spot it happens at has a sort of muscle memory of that event. A sight site :smallbiggrin:. Other Elvori of that attunement may be see the premonition upon visit to that same place. Elvori then might take care in choosing where they make their premonitions, and may make repeated premonitions in the same area to store multiple premonitions. Over time, premonitions fade. Also, a site can be destroyed by natural or intentional causes, though it may be difficult to do so.

Since these sites are impermanent, many elvori take it upon themselves to search out these sites and document them for the Archives. The Archives is a highly restricted place where premonitions of the future are stored. Few know of its location, despite the amount of scribes collecting documents to add to it.

Thoughts on my ranting? Ideas spurred from it?

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-08-07, 11:14 PM

Still trying to correctly get a good write up for physical appearance, and who they are culturally, in a way that mimics the Ancient's description in Magic. I'll likely have to add more culturally to that description, but that's good. The more the two systems are written up to compliment each other, the more understanding will pass between the two.

Still wondering what the response is on my above post. Thoughts folks?

SamBurke

2013-08-08, 03:18 PM

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-08-09, 12:29 PM

I like the idea of a mystery-location with a lot of predictions saved up. It seems vaguely reminiscent of the SCP Foundation, albeit it a bit less creepy.

As to the methods, I like 'em all. Not much to say when it's good, I guess? :smallcool:

I'm not sure what the SCP Foundation is, but yeah, I quite like the idea myself. I'd say that these sites are hard to destroy, and unmanipulatable directly without great power. They can be interacted with, but you'd need a lot of energy directed at destroying it. Perhaps that is why many Seers decide to obscure it or hide it instead. The more predictions made at these locations, the harder it is to destroy. They might also be hidden in plain sight as a statue, a fountain, a fireplace, so on.

As for methods, I'm trying to think of the best thing for fire that is similar to the other elements passive intuitions. Since earth is dice and ouiji, water is tea leaves and intoxicants, and wind is inhalents and dowsing, fire seems a bit...lacking.

Flashes of something visually works, such as a small vision, but the other I'm not sure about.

I was thinking about something akin to tarot cards, but couldn't think how that would be.

SamBurke

2013-08-09, 12:33 PM

Perhaps temporary burns on their bodies? Tarot cards seems cool, but I'm not sure how "fire-y" they are.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-08-09, 12:47 PM

Perhaps temporary burns on their bodies? Tarot cards seems cool, but I'm not sure how "fire-y" they are.

Yeah, the only thing I could think of is that they could "see" something in the cards others didn't, but that's kind of stretching it. Perhaps certain cards would be warmer to the touch, and so it would be the warm cards that a seer would pull? Make it a variation on terot, by making the whole deck different as well, might be a good idea.

thethird

2013-08-09, 02:05 PM

Veklim

2013-08-10, 05:06 PM

Hrm, ok...these vision places sound similar to the anchor points I mentioned in my Elemental Archives subrant, and I like the direction you've taken them in with regards to both their toughness and their impermenence. Good times!

Regarding the fire seeing, I thought images in smoke and the shifting black, grey and red of fading of embers would make the most sense. If you like the idea of cards too, then why not have fire seers carry cards marked with sacred symbols which burn in unique patterns when ignited by a fire seer's control of their element. They would likely make these cards out of anything there was to hand, be it bark and soot, card and ink or even velum and blood...

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-08-12, 10:25 AM

How does fate influence elves minds?

Do they wear protection or is it an affront to fate? The creatures rush at you, as they move colors erupt around them, like thin veils that cling to their skins. They move with purpose, every step a sure one, their eyes are almost closed as if they are focused on something beyond them. One straight arrow hits one in the shoulder, and the creature spins falling to the ground, the rest of them advance, not paying a glance to their comrade.

Interesting thought. Hmmm...I see Fate as a relationship. Its sort of a give and take idea - a revered power, both respected and sacred. Ultimately, its a reliance on the power, and a trust. Passion. They know how things work - better than most. They'll have a hunger for learning more about how things work and function, as well as a benifit of knowledge to counteract certain things - like armor blocking an arrow. They don't have Fate armor, and their predictions likely will never be so specific.

In other words, telling someone their own absolute Fates will likely be counter productive to accomplishing it - If I know that one day I'm going to invent something, or live to see this thing, then I'm more likely not to make efforts to get there. It's like knowing there's a suprise birthday that's planned for you: One then starts thinking - oh, better not agree to do anything with anyone, so as to not interfere with that secret party you're expecting. Thing is, they're trying to take you to it, but you aren't going because you're expecting it to happen. Or the converse, you believe a friends invitation to hang out is their ploy to get you to the party, and instead you miss the party entirely because you went with the wrong person.

What about personal relationships? Are they seeking for their fated one? Do they have a dating website? When he saw her he knew. The compass of his life pointed her, through her, beyond her, with her. And when she looked at him, he knew that she knew the same.

I'm....not sure. Perhaps there can be some recognition. A sort of, destined lovers ideal that gets permeated to the rest of the world. But ultimately, I'm not sure.

Overall describing them as elves is probably a good idea because there are a lot of elvish archetypes that can be worked into fate. Cool idea.

I'm actually doing something slightly similar for my setting, although I am not using elements. I'll keep lurking around.

What do you mean by "overall describing them as elves"? What kinds of archetypes are you thinking of? I think a nice trope breaker is the fact that elves not only aren't related to nature (trees, animals, so on) but they can't even manipulate them. Glad to have you! I look forward to seeing more. Got any links to this setting?

Hrm, ok...these vision places sound similar to the anchor points I mentioned in my Elemental Archives subrant, and I like the direction you've taken them in with regards to both their toughness and their impermenence. Good times!

Your subrant was indeed an influence on these ideas, and I hope you enjoy them. I think so far they work quite well! Though, I wanted to keep the elemental archives in books, while keeping the connection to the Elements its own thing - embracing.

Regarding the fire seeing, I thought images in smoke and the shifting black, grey and red of fading of embers would make the most sense. If you like the idea of cards too, then why not have fire seers carry cards marked with sacred symbols which burn in unique patterns when ignited by a fire seer's control of their element. They would likely make these cards out of anything there was to hand, be it bark and soot, card and ink or even velum and blood...

I like this burning certain things to gain different results. This makes me think of freezing certain things to get different results for water users as well. :smallcool:

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-08-14, 01:20 PM

Alrighty, so a bit ago we talked about what happens when an Elvori fails to attune...well, I've finally gotten that written up. :smallcool:

Elvori who Fail to Attune

A high percentage of the Elvori attune to an element, yet for various reasons there are those that fail to do so. This could be a situation they are forced into, such as they were unable to decide which element to take, medically were stunted, or perhaps an individual with malicious intent might prevent an Elvori from attuning. Finally, this situation might be of an Elvori's own volition, and has chosen not to attune for a higher purpose - to become a Scribe. This will be detailed more in the Ultimate Fate section.

When an Elvori fails to attune, they bodily have severe drawbacks when compared to one that has attuned. First, the unattuned cannot go through their tempering stage, and thus are denied any hieghtenings of senses. They also gain a shorter lifespan, generally only living a mere tenth of a normal Elvori's life span. It is as if the intimate connection to the Force of Fate (which these unattuned Elvori are denied) causes the usual Elvori to live longer. Finally, the unattuned are unable to reproduce, as their bodies have not gone through the changes neccessary to do so.

With such disadvantages, one would wonder why any sane Elvori would choose not to attune. While it is a huge cost, an unattuned Elvori can manipulate, move, and destroy Premonition Sites, where no attuned Elvori could.

--

So, what do you folks think?

Veklim

2013-08-14, 05:09 PM

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-08-14, 08:55 PM

I think I see where you're going with this...figured Scribes might end up being unattuned. I am guessing you plan to allow them to view, modify, protect and destroy the Anchor Points so they can gather and protect certain knowledge kept within, makes much sense that way. I'm not so sure about saying they are denied a connection to fate though, if anything they are more intimately and directly tied to it, since they have no elemental inclination to colour their view and are much more frail and mortal than other Elvori (making fate that much more dominant in their minds I'm sure).

That's basically what the gist is, and I meant to say it in a way where it didn't seem they were disconnected to Fate completely, just disconnected based on the elements. Since they have a shorter life span, and aren't attuned, they are the perfect caretakers for predictions of the future - they are of no use to themselves, only others.

DracoDei

2013-08-22, 11:46 AM

I will say that localized disasters are something that would occasionally be triggered INTENTIONALLY. In fact, if it is something that you yourself can expect to survive the effects of (NOT including people trying to kill you to stop the effect), it might be a rather standard tactic when seriously outnumbered. Or, if you can sync up with other Elvori of the same element, and ALL expect to not get hit, it could be a group tactic.

Kamakazi attacks are a subset of this.

Bullets are directed (to one degree or another), bombs are (mostly) omnidirectional. Both have their applications.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-08-22, 11:54 AM

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-09-30, 08:42 AM

Still working on some wording and things for Ultimate Fate. Things have been really busy with real life things, such as working lots of overtime to pay for an Hmm hmm hmmm hmmm, as well as I've been actually getting painting commissions that have been keeping me busy (which is wonderful!). This project is far from dead, I assure you folks.

SamBurke

2013-09-30, 11:36 AM

Still working on some wording and things for Ultimate Fate. Things have been really busy with real life things, such as working lots of overtime to pay for an engagement ring, as well as I've been actually getting painting commissions that have been keeping me busy (which is wonderful!). This project is far from dead, I assure you folks.

I do hope she doesn't know your screen name, cause otherwise, you just let the cat out of the velvet ringbox.

Also, major congratulations on the upcoming engagement, and solid congrats on getting commissions!

Veklim

2013-09-30, 05:08 PM

I do hope she doesn't know your screen name, cause otherwise, you just let the cat out of the velvet ringbox.

Also, major congratulations on the upcoming engagement, and solid congrats on getting commissions!

Yes indeed! I also add my congratulations to the list, I can excuse the lack of posting..........this time! :smalltongue:

Had you considered calling it Sealed Fate...? Kinda fits nicely I reckon, and keeps with the theme...

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-10-01, 07:34 AM

Well, if I changed Ultimate Fate to Sealed Fate, what would I change Immediate Fate to? And honestly, Fate is far from Sealed until it's come to pass...

Oh wait...are you talking about engagement still? :smallconfused:

Veklim

2013-10-01, 08:32 PM

Well, if I changed Ultimate Fate to Sealed Fate, what would I change Immediate Fate to? And honestly, Fate is far from Sealed until it's come to pass...

You're right I guess....it's only REALLY sealed when she says 'I do.' :smallwink:

maybe go for Fractured Fate (immediate), since you essentially 'break' an element to do it, and Fate Foretold (ultimate)...? It sounds ok as far as I'm concerned.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-10-14, 12:47 PM

Writing in really to update everyone on my situation - mostly my internet for the time being is kaput while I look for a replacement roommate. I've had a lot of real life issues on my mind, and hope that by the end of the month, most of those issues will be resolved. In the mean time, I just ask that people be patient with my updates, and keep me in your thoughts. It's been a very rough couple of weeks.

So, without getting too much into things - I'll be back to this just as soon as life allows my muse to breathe again. :smallbiggrin:

SamBurke

2013-10-14, 01:37 PM

Veklim

2013-10-14, 06:21 PM

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-10-28, 11:51 AM

ALRIGHT! SO! I'm engaged, I have a new roommate, and the commissions are rolling in. Looks like the stressors have been fended off! At least for the moment. Means I can buckle down on completing the nagging final details of this 'brew to move onto Luck in earnest! :smallsmile:

So before I begin, anyone have any questions, or thoughts?

(and on the proprosal went off GREAT! She didn't see it coming at all!)

Rizban

2013-10-29, 09:46 AM

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-10-29, 10:05 AM

Congrats on the engagement!

Just skimmed briefly and will review more thoroughly later. Only thing that comes to mind is this: You should check the table in the first post, specifically the "buoyancy" line. I think there's a mistake there.

If I'm taking your meaning, you're attibuting water to bouyancy?

If so, I have water and earth affected by gravity - sinking. Where as fire and wind rise. For example - things are more bouyant when they have more gas or heat in them. And less bouyant when they are heavier.

As in, I don't put water in something to make it float. I put in a gas. Same with if I want to make a balloon float into the sky. Some gasses are less bouyant than others, the same way some liquids and solids are less heavy, such as water vapor, or sand.

Rizban

2013-10-29, 10:19 AM

I see. That gives water 4, wind 6, and the others 5. Hence why I mentioned it.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-10-29, 11:44 AM

I see. That gives water 4, wind 6, and the others 5. Hence why I mentioned it.

Oh, I see what you mean. I really used those to better exemplify the elemental capabilities. I suppose to make it more rounded, I could find another topic to put in the chart...perhaps something like tides? Seasons would encompass mostly water and fire, but I'd say each season is traditionally oriented to a specific element - water: winter, wind: fall, fire: summer, earth: spring.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-11-26, 12:14 PM

So, I'm going to move the conversation to what the Elvori look like. I was considering a cross between a normal elf and a neanderthal, with some of my own flavors, but WaylanderX has provided me with ample questions regarding any physical trait I decide on. Why?

Any trait has to have a reason why it is there, whether it be a feature of a previous incarnation of the creature or the current. I know I wanted them to be tall, and have elongated heads, and look humanoid, but not exactly human. The more I've experimented, the more they sound like Orcs, which is interesting.

Here's what we know: The elvori have a complex hormonal system that changes some of their physical appearance is specific adapted ways to assist with their element. This causes them to have a longer skull and thicker neck to support it. However, the race has to have basic traits that all of them have before they embrace. This is what even the unattuned will have. I was thinking longer arms and legs, for climbing and running and swimming, but are there other reasons to have these things?

Any one have any other thoughts or ideas on what this race SHOULD have?

Veklim

2013-11-27, 11:32 PM

Hair. Lots of it. All over too, not just the head and pubic regions. Elvori are much closer to the elements and therefore less separated from them than most other sentient creatures. I imagine they don't go in for clothing so much, not likely to go much for big architecture either, so they will have retained thicker and more obvious body hair than races which have spent long millenia removing themselves from the natural world.

TheWombatOfDoom

2013-11-28, 08:37 AM

Hairy bodies might be problematic -

...for an Earth Seer, tempering causes their body to grow small, opaque, whisker-like hairs all over their body, which give the seer a heightened sense of touch.

Veklim

2013-11-28, 10:52 AM

oh yeah.......

Veklim

2013-11-28, 02:29 PM

Ok, so far we have an elongated skull, thickset neck and shoulders and slightly elongated limbs as a racial standard. Many facial features will subtly change depending on element chosen, but elfen features as standard (pointy ears, almond shaped eyes, small mouith and full lips).

With that in mind, perhaps large hands and feet would make a fair bit of sense, along with a fairly squat torso. I have in mind a rather manga-esque look to them, both powerfully built and yet somehow rather waif-like.

Rizban

2013-12-02, 12:36 AM

Physically something like this (http://doggerman.deviantart.com/art/Half-Orc-Elf-65407242) or this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238557)?

TheWombatOfDoom

2014-01-10, 02:56 PM

Those are kind of like what I'm going for. I'm brainstorming with some Biologists to try and get them just the way I'd like them.

In other news, after a bit of a hiatus, I'm back to working on this! I think I'm going to attempt to steam through the predictional side of this so I can focus on cleaning and polishing, so any and all suggestions or thoughts on how I might handle "Ultimate Fate", please share! At this point, I know that there's the passive ability of Divination, and then the dominant ability of Foresight.

We've got the idea of fixed points, and the idea of a changing future. We have the idea of scribes, and premonition points. Refer to the OP for some brief pasted rough ideas on the subject, but I'm really happy to listen to any suggestions! :smallsmile:

TheWombatOfDoom

2014-11-18, 12:07 PM

To continue the thread (and to empty my inbox) I'm posting a conversation I had with 3SecondCultist regarding Fate. Want to make sure it's saved, in case it gives me inspiration at any point. Or if it gives one of you any ideas.

So I realize this is a LONG time coming, but I'm still interested in your Fate system. I'm not all that far into the details, but so far I am struck by the elegance and dynamism of the systems you seem to set up on a regular basis. In particular, the Immediate Fate mechanics have an eye for detail that seems to elude me when it comes to world-building. It actually reminds me a great deal of the magic system utilized by Erfworld (if you haven't read that, please do so immediately as I'm sure you'll love it).

First, I'm honored in your compliments of my systems. Its been a fairly large project of mine half my life now to create this world, and I'm finally knowledged enough, and have certain people whom I can have intelligent conversation with that I'm finally making headway on some of the more intricate details of the setting. Which is exciting! I just wish the converesation was more often, in some cases. Alas. Either way, its nice to be finally getting some of the ideas out of my head and into writing. That in itself is a feat. I have a habit of being thorough in my settings (if Connections & Contention wasn't a clue). I'm a completionist. If I'm playing a game like Legend of Zelda, I'm not happy just winning. I like to collect everything. Find everything there is to find. Learn everything there is in the game to learn. And I've found with world building for my novel, its a very similar mindset.

If I have super natural abilities, I like to know why. Even if they're never learned by the reader, I need that context to assist me in writing, but also to inspire me. Of course, I also just like to create.

I have read ErfWorld, and I'm still a reader now. The pacing is something of a constant issue, but I do enjoy the story very much. Wish he could hold on to an artist! I actually researched ErfWorld's system quite heavily at the start of my Fate thread. I knew some of the things I had in mind, but I wanted to see how Rob had gone about it in his system. With his references to luck and fate in the text updates, I was very curious on his takes on the two and so on. While it hasn't been as much of an influence, his system was definitely admirable and inspiring. I respect his amount of detail in the setting, even if I don't always agree with his business methods of telling his story.

Questions:
1) In your first paragraph, you mention that Elvori (who you go on to talk about as a sort of elder race, and I would assume are at least partially derivative of elves) have "a living connection to the force of Fate." What caused this connection? Is it always active? You say that only the Elvori can communicate with those ways, but what does that actually mean? Is there a physical manifestation to the connection besides the obvious effects?

In my world's creation, there were three main races that started out. The Ancients, the Elvori, and the Dragons. The three forces that make up my world each chose a race to be it's protectors. The Ancients were chosen by Magic, the Elvori - Fate, and the Dragons - Luck. If a different force had chosen each race, who knows what each race might have turned out to be like, but the forces have made them as they are today. Each force envelops and manipulates the world as a whole. This connection has made a certain relationship with the race it was connected to. There are physical aspects, such as that the Ancients are telepathic, or with the elves there are certain aspects of their bodies (that i'm still working on) that will resemble their attuned element, and so on. It also gives the race a certain amount of power over it, which fluctuates when the force is dominant or passive.

I'll also add this in for you -
Fate = Physics, the Elements, and Predicting the Future
Luck = Biology, Adaption, and Evolution
Magic = Sentience, Perception, and Belief

The three forces all cycle into which is in power, as seasons might, though these cycles take much more time than a year to do so. Each transition to a different force marks the start of a new age. Naturally, an age is estimated to be about 500 years, though events can interrupt or extend the period of a cycle as well. When one force is in power, the other two are passive, diminishing or increasing the powers of the races attuned to them respectively.

The three forces interact naturally with each other, complimenting or contrasting each other in various ways. Each force has one race that it is attuned to, and so these specific races are able to manipulate and use the forces. Some products of these powers have similar results, and some very unique. Magic interacts well with both Luck and Fate, but Fate and Luck don't mix well together on a power relation. For example, Fate users cannot affect anything living, while luck users cannot animate non-living things. Meanwhile, Magic bends reality, so can effect both. In a way, Magic cannot exist without the existence of both Luck and Fate, because it is a product of the two.

2) When talking about Elemental Manipulation as being the latent abilities of the Elvori to control the aspects of Immediate Fate, is there a specific threshold beyond which the elements of once living things can be manipulated? You say that it takes time for such things to decompose, but are we talking months, years, decades, centuries? I'm assuming it depends on the material, but different things decompose in different ways.

Some elements will be more faster manipulatable than others. Fire leaves the body when the body dies, so one could heat a dead body immediately. Wind's gases then begin to seperate from a body, as it starts to decompose. Water is the next to come out, as fluids begin to seperate or dry. Earth last, as the body turns to dust. It all depends on the situation, but we're talking days to weeks, no longer than a month. As for specific details, if you have any ideas based on this, send them my way. I haven't started Luck, so the constituants on the once living are something I haven't fully determined as of yet.

3) Regarding the elemental capabilities, I see that you've put a '??' at the end of each list. Could I take that to mean that even the Elvori themselves do not know all of the possible uses for the various elemental forces and reactions they can wield? Which also leads me to a related question: is there a ceiling on the Progression Level, given that it is based on Age and Experience and that in most fantasy settings, elves are immortal? So a 700 year old elemental seer would basically wield the elemental powers of a demi-god?

Correct. The Elvori are always discovering new ways to use the elements. Also, leaving it open for other people to make suggestions. To your related question - Elvori live to be at most 1000 years old. This means they never see more than two ages (fluctuations of the forces). The oldest aren't quite a demi god, but they are very powerful. Few of them live that long in any case. There's disease, killing, accidents, so on to cull the multitudes.

Anyhow, I am interested in seeing what you're doing with Aldain, very interested indeed. Excited to see Ultimate Fate once you're done with it, although I understand that you're just coming back from vacation and may take some time getting back into the rhythm.

Ultimate fate is getting there. I'm trying to complete Immediate Fate before going on to it, but I've had it simmering on the burner for some time.

Well I'm glad you have read Erfworld, I was just struck by the similar elements. I would second your comment about the need for a constant writer, but I also kind of like what each person brings to the table, as far as Epileptic Trees and other crazed theorems go. I find whenever I see a new update, I need to go back and take a run at it just to try and remember what's going on. I'm a sucker for any setting that is well-thought out enough that you can actually apply deductive/inductive reasoning to its various elements and come to conclusions that pleasantly surprise the creator. Basically, you can't be too clever, and there should always be another secret to uncover.

Regarding your system, sorry for the wait in terms of my response. I kept a notification at the back of my spider-brain, but unfortunately it had to take a back seat until I got everything in my day to day life back in order. What you said about the interactions between the various systems and living/non-living things reminded me of the power systems featured in web-series like Whateley or Worm. Both are well written, relatively realistic takes on superheroes in the modern world (Worm is probably more to your taste). If Fate and Luck affect things that are living and non-living, what about something like a plant? Do your definitions of living apply to inanimate objects that have a life cycle? How does that work with elements like fire which are not technically alive? What if there were a creature or substance that embraced both the living and the non-living (thinking of things like coral)? Your answers only seem to breed more questions.

No worries on the delay. I haven't gone anywhere, and honestly, the system is a LOT more fleshed out than it was back at that point. And is continuing to do so. Right now I'm working on reworking the physique of the elves so they aren't completely the same as humans save pointy ears. More on that later though.

I'll have to look at some of these webcomics. First, can I have a few links? Second, are they safe for work?

Plants are living things. Animals, plants, anything that has a life cycle is considered part of Luck, even if it sometimes exibits the characteristics of a certain element more than others, such as coral. In fact, I should mention - Luck is a complex combination of the 4 elements. So complex, the elvori, who can only attune to one or at most two, can't affect it. In fact, death is another side of life. Disease and bacteria and such are all part of luck as well. Things eating other things, over population causing death from starvation, decomposing, are all things attributed to life, and so - luck.

Think of Luck and Fate as two halves of a battery. Not the positive and negative sides, split the battery right down the middle length-wise. Alright. So both halves have ther four element. In fate - we have the elements as individuals working as a whole to create the way things work, a place for life to be able to be, and so on. Then the other half you have the four elements as one cohesive combination, resulting in various forms and walks of life. Both haves have a positive and negative side with the radicals. Fate you've seen, with Luck, its life and death. Neither are bad. They are both neccesary.

Fate and Luck rely on each other, but are also uninteractable. A Luck user cannot make the ground move, just as a Fate user could not blood bend. Magic, however, can affect both.

Fire is most certainly neccesary for life. Just think of the amount of electricity found generated in the heart, and how thought itself is a series of tiny electrical charges. Not to mention the fact that a creature needs heat to survive.

A system that creates more question the more that is learned about it is a good system. Especially when those questions can further be answered.

TheWombatOfDoom

2015-04-22, 03:22 PM

Posting to rejuvenate the thread from long told quietness! We should be seeing at least some sort of comment from one AdmiralSquish in the near future, so I figured posting to avoid thread necromancy was in order! If you are new to this concept, I would love feedback, and even if you've been with this project since the beginning, take this chance to slip back into the shoes of this setting, and lets see where it takes us!

Admiral Squish

2015-04-22, 04:09 PM

TheWombatOfDoom

2015-04-27, 12:03 PM

Well, let's see, then.
Firstly, I definitely think this is a really interesting concept. I'm not exactly familiar with your setting or the rules, so you'll have to forgive me if I miss something.

My overall impression of the whole is that you have a really unique and potentially quite cool concept here, but it really need some sort of mechanics to back it up, otherwise it's just a lot of decoration.

If you look at the first thing I say, its that this is purely decoration for a setting for a novel I'm writing, not a game. Still homebrew, still mechanically based. Just not any GAME mechanic. And someday it might go that route, but it'll likely change the concept idea and right now I want the concept cemented before I even think about sacrificing creativity for gameplay. I'm trying to make a really neat world where the magic is explainable and makes sense in layout, so that I can write about it. So think of this like a massive brainstorming session, where people come to pick apart concepts to make sure they're sound, or make suggestions on how things might be better. I think better when I discuss and explain things to others, and love to have suggestions from people who are experienced in world building and systems. Hense why I asked if you'd review what I had. (I also said that to you a long time ago, but its been some time since the request, so I don't blame you! :smalltongue:)

I think you're definitely gonna have to actually lay out the elvori in detail. There seems to be plenty of information about them scattered around through the rest of the post, but gathering it all together into something solid would probably really help. An important question is, are elvori the only race capable of using all of this fate stuff, or are they just the best at it?

Yeah, that's something I've come to a hardship on. I don't want them to be exactly like humans save for this power over fate, because otherwise why not just make them human? I've had a lot of suggestions, but I'm still having a hard time coming up with a good description of them. I suppose there's a few ways I can go - traditionally I could have elemental choice be hereditary - so originally it used to be that certain ethnicities of the elvori practiced certain kinds of elemental attunement, but now its broken from that mold a bit, since really any elvori can choose from the 4 elements. So, there would still be some stereo types from that pre-choice era, but now its kind of breaking down some? I like the story elements that could be from that.

Part of me wants to keep them separate and more do it along a story line, but I'm not sure that's wise. Also, that still leaves me wondering what physical characteristics make the Elvori different from humans. Part of the problem is that I have a few confusing things:

The Ancients - This race is the race that controls magic, and is all but extinct. They're basically true humans.

Humans - Actually half elves. One of the reasons the Ancients are dying out (the other being war) is because instead of reproducing with their own kind, many Ancients during the height of their civilization ended up taking on the Elvori as mates. Their offspring, known as Hewn-men, live a shorter lifespan than either the ancients or the elvori, and cannot control fate or magic. They have basically taken over the areas the Ancients previously lived in, thinking that they (the humans) have always been there. In a way, they're right. But also very wrong.

So we have ancients, humans, and elvori, all who are humanoid and look similar...but have a different range in powers. Internally I'm trying to resolve this, kind of making the elvori a sort of Neanderthal of Ancients, but its slow going. The fartest I've gotten is that it's cool that unattuned Elvori look like children, because if you're looking at elves in fantasy, you've got little elves OR big elves, but generally not both. This kind of bridges that gap, which I wonder if I could tap further...

The elemental associations seem solid and they all make sense, though the idea of fate involving elements in the first place was a little unusual.

I'm glad that part all is solid and makes sense, since its kind of the root of the concept. :smallsmile:

The progression numbers bit seems very... complex. I don't know any of the number ranges that seem like they would be involved here, so I can't make any comments on that.

Yeah, its kind of just a formula I came up with to simplify how the system works. More of just a map of the thought process, rather than something to put numbers into. Though I suppose the characters in my world might. I hate math, so I'll likely not go into it farther than that basis.

I think fire and wind seem like they're getting stiffed in the energy accumulation method. Wind's unreliable, and it seems to imply you have to run out of fire then refill, and you can't use it while filling.

Well, I need to back read the thread a little for this one...one moment...

I said this back in June of 2013:

So in other words - power = energy. Elves gain a more energy as they age, granted to them by the elemental entities they attune to (sort of like a trust of more energy as they progress) and they can use the elemental fluctuations as their means of recharging this energy for use, as well as naturally gaining it back by rest, and other means. To further the efficiency of rest, a seer could sleep near an area of their element, so for example, water seers near a body of water, or earth seers underground.

So basically, they have energy, this is more of a latent refill as they deplete it. How could I make that more clear in the first post? It also looks like this is a question I haven't fully resolved as of yet, so let me open it back up, based on my thought process back then -

To Do - Explaining Power Progression in a way that makes sense. Yes, as they get older and more experienced, they gain more power. Yes, power is the amount of energy you can exert to accomplish something with your element. But if elemental fluctuations show one detail of how one can recharge their energy, than where are they getting the greater capacity from? I keep saying "from the elements/fate" but, what does that really mean? Is it a becoming more like the element? Becoming more familiar? Initially, it was that the elvori are entrusted with more control of the element BY the element, but to what extent does that make the element sentient? Each a deity? 4 parts of the whole of fate, making fate sentient? I just am not sure how far down the rabbit hole I want to go with it.

Hope either of these sparks some ideas? :smallredface:

Is the elemental capabilities bit like brainstorming for a spell list or is this more of a narrative-based system?

Its basically brainstorming, yeah. Not a spell list, just things one might be able to do with each power. I suppose it also needs the combinations put in, for those who attune to more than one element.

Other than that, I'm looking for help with the other side of fate - predictional. Any thoughts or ideas at how you might tackle such an aspect?

Veklim

2015-05-24, 11:33 AM

Heya Wombat...long time I know, I'll explain some time o_O

Thoughts on the 'positive' and 'negative' fates...might be more apt to call them convergent and divergent fate instead. This hints at the binding and unbinding on the molecular level, but could also provide a link to the sort of information you gain from the prediction. Someone viewing through convergent power would see the meeting of fate strands and the culmination of events, whereas those of divergent means would see the parting of threads and the aftermath of a culmination. This would also account for the obscure nature of many of the predictions, since you only ever perceive one part of any particular moment. It also means the scribes are doing more than just compiling the data, they would also be creating a sort of 'composite future history'. Those with attunement to more than one element would be priceless for their predictions, since they may be able to perceive both the meeting and parting of strands, and this would also lend more reason for Elvori to make group seeings, since all 4 elements together would provide the most complete predictions. I'd argue that cases where multiple seers make singular predictions as a group, the focus of said prediction would have to be both close in proximity and time, and also very specific, since they must ensure they are all seeing the same event.

TheWombatOfDoom

2015-05-28, 10:31 AM

TheWombatOfDoom

2020-07-25, 07:56 PM

Alright folks, I just added a bunch of the content I've been mulling around and thinking about for the better part of the last few months, and ultimately over the last 7 years. So without further adeiu I give you:

ULTIMATE FATE

I'd love feedback on what you folks think about the system, now that it is largely done. Welcome anyone new, and for those of you who are still with us (and thought this project long dead) we are back!

Amidus Drexel

2020-07-30, 06:57 PM

I dig it. Not really much commentary for me to add - it's pretty fleshed out and makes sense - so I'll just tell you it's cool instead. :smallcool:

TheWombatOfDoom

2020-07-30, 09:36 PM

I dig it. Not really much commentary for me to add - it's pretty fleshed out and makes sense - so I'll just tell you it's cool instead. :smallcool:

Thanks! Let me know if there's anything you want to know about anything, examples, details, etc.

Amidus Drexel

2020-07-31, 02:25 PM

TheWombatOfDoom

2020-07-31, 09:13 PM

Oh, something that would be neat to see - maybe some example characters/organizations? Like, maybe a specific forum and what it's trying to accomplish?

It'd be cool to see some more details of the world fleshed out in addition the underlying metaphysics and large-scale setting stuff.

I'll think on a specific example and share it!

As for the world setting, I can put some stuff out, but I tend to be a little more close to the chest about some of that in terms of posting too much, as much of it is in fluctuation or tied up in actual story/plot. Still, questions regarding things are probably fine overall. Much of it its hard to finding a start to it.