[3.5] Bard vs. Silence?

[Unusual Muse]

So, a 2nd level spell completely nerfs the bard's primary class feature. What's a bard to do? I know that some people houserule the Subsonics feat to allow bardic music to work despite silence, but it doesn't by RAW and my gaming group has ruled that it does not (which I agree with; it seems clearly written for being stealthy, rather than overcoming silence).

Even a wizard can still cast some spells while Silenced... so help a bard out! Any thoughts?

[thethird]

Two words:

Joyful noise (http://dndtools.eu/spells/song-and-silence-a-guidebook-to-bards-and-rogues--48/joyful-noise--3297/)

swordsaged? :smalltongue:

[TaiLiu]

Have ranks in Perform: Dance, or any Perform skill that doesn't need sound.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Silence generally shouldn't be a hard counter to Bard. They either have to cast it at you; you have a strong Will Save and it's a low level spell unless they heighten it or they cast it on an area; move.

[Slipperychicken]

Silent Spell Dispel Magic.

Or Silent Spell [Whatever you were going to cast anyway].

Or move ~20ft out of spell radius, then Dispel Magic.

[Greenish]

Silent Spell Dispel Magic.

Or Silent Spell [Whatever you were going to cast anyway].The minor flaw in the plan is that you can't apply Silent Spell to bard spells.

[Slipperychicken]

The minor flaw in the plan is that you can't apply Silent Spell to bard spells.

Maybe we should put that one in the obscure rules thread.

[Chilingsworth]

Well, the 1st level bard spell amplify (Spell Compendium) counters and dispells silence. So, just step out of the area of the silence, and cast amplify at it. (or use joyful noise to cast amplify.)

[ericgrau]

Rarely can a wizard cast while silenced. How many spell lists have you seen with hypnotic pattern?

A bard deals it with the same way any other caster does, by passing his save or moving out of the silence. And at least he has tumble. Hey, actually, draw your weapon and go help the rogue flank. At least you have medium BAB. Or trip/disarm with your whip. Ya... as a partial caster a bard is less affected than a full caster.

[Chilingsworth]

I don't think the OP was refering to a bard's casting so much as bardic music.

[ericgrau]

It's a little inconvenient, but bardic music is usually only worth it before a fight anyway, and then it lasts 5 rounds even after it stops. By then the fight is over. Most of all a bard still has other options. A wizard can make knowledge checks and relay that battle important information mentally to his imaginary friend. Well, ok, there are exceptions but he's severely hampered even then.

[Daftendirekt]

Maybe we should put that one in the obscure rules thread.

That's not obscure at all. Anybody playing a bard should know that all bard spells have verbal components. Always.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Rarely can a wizard cast while silenced.

A moderately optimized mid-level wizard probably has the means to at least cast a dispel or an escape spell/effect while silenced. At lower levels they react like a bard pass your will save or make a spellcraft check to know the area of effect and step out.

[Slipperychicken]

A moderately optimized mid-level wizard probably has the means to at least cast a dispel or an escape spell/effect while silenced. At lower levels they react like a bard pass your will save or make a spellcraft check to know the area of effect and step out.

Anyone targeting the spellcaster in question with the Silence spell needs to re-evaluate his strategy. Just cast it on your Fighter, who goes in to Grapple the Wizard. There aren't many ways for him to get out of that without help.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Versatile Performer (Perform [dance]).

[thethird]

That's not obscure at all. Anybody playing a bard should know that all bard spells have verbal components. Always.

Joyful Noise only has somatic component, but the statement stands for almost always.

[Deophaun]

Have ranks in Perform: Dance, or any Perform skill that doesn't need sound.

Versatile Performer (Perform [dance]).
Ahem.

Fascinate (Sp)
...Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and able to pay attention to him.

Inspire Courage (Su)
...To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing.
This is standard for pretty much every use of bardic music. So go ahead and take Perform (dance), just know it will do absolutely nothing for you when you're hit by silence.

Also note, you do not even have to use a perform skill for most of these. Merely possessing ranks is enough. I think the only two that require such a Perform check are Countersong and Fascinate, though there might be PrCs that grant alternate uses that require them.

[Averis Vol]

I just hope my residual effects are enough to last through the encounter, then I move to beat some faces in. It's one of those things that are just intended, and the creators had the insight to compensate the players for it.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Ahem.

This is standard for pretty much every use of bardic music. So go ahead and take Perform (dance), just know it will do absolutely nothing for you when you're hit by silence.

Guess all those masterwork instruments are useless then, since you can't sing the mandolin or the horn. :rolleyes:

Arguing that one can't be inspired by a dance they can't hear is the most singularly over-the-top literal interpretation of RAW I've seen this side of "drowning somebody to restore them to 0hp".

[Slipperychicken]

Guess all those masterwork instruments are useless then, since you can't sing the mandolin or the horn. :rolleyes:

Arguing that one can't be inspired by a dance they can't hear is the most singularly over-the-top literal interpretation of RAW I've seen this side of "drowning somebody to restore them to 0hp".

They're not "inspired" by the dance itself, but by the literal magic which accompanies the truly awesome performances which only a Bard can give. Magic, as we know, works in strange ways and has strange requirements to work (things like eating live spiders and throwing pastries at people), and this is no exception.

Even a Monk can do a pretty dance, but only a Bard can charge it with magic to give people bonuses on attack rolls and skill checks.

[Deophaun]

Guess all those masterwork instruments are useless then, since you can't sing the mandolin or the horn. :rolleyes:
But you can sing while doing either. Sing a line, blow the horn. Done. Singing is a free action, even if initiating the bardic music is not.

Arguing that one can't be inspired by a dance they can't hear is the most singularly over-the-top literal interpretation of RAW I've seen this side of "drowning somebody to restore them to 0hp".
It's not an argument and it's not an interpretation. It's flat out RAW. You may house rule however you like, but giving general advice based on your own peculiar house rules is not kosher unless you flag it as a house rule upfront.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

It's not an argument and it's not an interpretation. It's flat out RAW. You may house rule however you like, but giving general advice based on your own peculiar house rules is not kosher unless you flag it as a house rule upfront.

I don't like it, but I think you're right.

Even if we ignore this line from Inspire Courage:

To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing.

As being due to bad editing that used "sing" instead of "performing" there's still this line from Bardic Music:

While these abilities fall under the category of bardic music and the descriptions discuss singing or playing instruments, they can all be activated by reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance.

That's an obnoxiously long list which doesn't end with "or any other perform skill" so I think by RAW dance, bufoonery, weapon drill etc are off the Bardic Music table. Not just asininely stopped by silence.

[Rogue Shadows]

That's an obnoxiously long list which doesn't end with "or any other perform skill" so I think by RAW dance, bufoonery, weapon drill etc are off the Bardic Music table. Not just asininely stopped by silence.

Tap dancing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W22gpBv00gg)

All you really need to do is make noise. While doing buffoonery, you can be talking, doing patter. Weapon drills, just make some "hi-yas."

Just about the only perform that's really out is Miming, but let's be honest, that is for the best.

[Deophaun]

IThat's an obnoxiously long list which doesn't end with "or any other perform skill" so I think by RAW dance, bufoonery, weapon drill etc are off the Bardic Music table. Not just asininely stopped by silence.
They aren't entirely off the table. You can use ranks in Perform (Mime) to qualify for bardic music if you want. As I said previously, only two of the core applications of Bardic Music require a perform check of any sort. The others just require that people see/hear you, and use "sing" as a euphemism for any kind of frivolity that can trigger the music. You can IC with a comedy routine even if you have zero ranks in Perform (comedy) and a negative Cha modifier and roll a 1 on a (completely unnecessary) check.

[Greenish]

You can IC with a comedy routine even if you have zero ranks in Perform (comedy) and a negative Cha modifier and roll a 1 on a (completely unnecessary) check.I imagine that means making a terrible pun. Will save (DC 10+horribility rating of the pun, see sub-table 3–21) or be forced to spent a free action groaning.

[thethird]

That's an obnoxiously long list which doesn't end with "or any other perform skill" so I think by RAW dance, bufoonery, weapon drill etc are off the Bardic Music table. Not just asininely stopped by silence.

This is actually interesting:


A bard cannot use Perform (weapon drill) checks to perform his bardic music abilities (inspire courage, fascinate, and so on).

So perform (weapon drill) is explicitly out, not other perform skills though.

[Deophaun]

This is actually interesting
Interesting primarily in that the writer didn't know how bardic music abilities worked, as that only impacts countersong and fascinate, and has no impact on inspire courage, or anything else for that matter. It's no different than Perform (dance) in that regard.

[Unusual Muse]

Per the SRD:


While these abilities fall under the category of bardic music and the descriptions discuss singing or playing instruments, they can all be activated by reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance.

Note that none of these suggest that dancing can be used to activate bardic music; they all involve an audible performance of some kind, be it vocal or instrumental. Unless I'm missing something, or it was expanded in another book, you can't use Perform (Dance) for bardic music.

EDIT: Further, also per the SRD:


Just as for casting a spell with a verbal component, a deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use bardic music. If he fails, the attempt still counts against his daily limit.

While being deaf will hamper your ability to play an instrument (especially if that instrument requires self-intonation, such as a violin or a horn), it obviously doesn't in any way hamper your ability to dance. This further reinforces the proposition that bardic music is sound-dependent.