It's tough to be a god: Ascension in D&D Fluff

[Urpriest]

Being in a campaign with an arbitrary DM fond of ultrapowerful uncounterable NPCs and items that make your eyes bleed under detect magic has reaffirmed my commitment to only run games where, in principle at least, anything I can do the players can do too.

Since deities have lots of "no resisting this unless you have X divine ranks" abilities, I want to create rules for PCs to gain divinity. I want these rules to be balanced, and I want to make it hard to achieve divinity even under significant optimization.

Most importantly, though, I want to make sure that every way that someone has achieved divinity in the D&D fluff is possible in the rules. Which is where you guys come in.

I want a list of every being in the D&D fluff that ascended from mortal to divine, and how they did it. I'm finding myself remarkably uninformed about this: the only example in Deities and Demigods is Vecna, and I don't think they're very specific about what he did to achieve divinity. So please, list examples. If possible, tag your examples with campaign setting: the rules for achieving divinity might be different for Faerun vs. Greyhawk, for example.

Core/Greyhawk:
{table=head]Deity|Method
Zuoken|Personal Perfection/Contemplation, maybe Ritual
Mellifleur|Stole Divine Spark (accidental, Divine Spark was being bestowed by a deity)
Zarus|Granted by "the world" after death
Kurtulmak|Granted by a deity
Illumian gods (several)|Personal Perfection/Contemplation, after death
Vecna|Killing a deity
Orcus|Ritual
Cas|Force of Will
[/table]

Forgotten Realms:
{table=head]Deity|Method
Riven|Artifact and Killing and Stolen Divine Spark
Rivalen Tanthul|Artifact and Killing and Stolen Divine Spark
Erevis Cale|Artifact and Killing and Stolen Divine Spark
Mask|Stolen Divine Spark
Mephistopheles|Kill/Stolen Divine Spark
Cyric|Killing and Decree of Overdeity
Midnight|Killing and Decree of Overdeity
Kelemvor Lyonsbane|Worship and Decree of Overdeity
Danifae Yauntyrr|Absorption into preexisting god
Velsharoon|Granted by a deity
Bane|Kill/Stolen Divine Spark
Bhaal|Kill/Stolen Divine Spark
Myrkul|Kill/Stolen Divine Spark
Finder Wyvernspur|Kill/Granted by a deity
The Red Knight|Granted by a deity
[/table]

Pathfinder:
{table=head]Deity|Method
Aroden|Unknown
Iomedae|Artifact/Ritual
Norgorber|Artifact/Ritual
Cayden Cailean|Artifact/Ritual
Irori|Personal Perfection/Contemplation
Nethys|Unknown
Urgathoa|Force of Will
Lamashtu|Unknown, formerly powerful entity
Sarenrae|Unknown, formerly powerful entity
Desna|Unknown, formerly powerful entity
Monkey King|Unknown?
Arazni|Granted by a deity
Besmara|Formerly a powerful entity, consumed other powerful entities
[/table]

Dragonlance:
{table=head]Deity|Method
Raistlin Majere|Ritual, later killing to increase power
[/table]

Eberron:
{table=head]Deity|Method
Several parts of the Silver Flame|Absorption into preexisting god
[/table]

[Gazzien]

FRCS:
-Riven, Rivalen Tanthul, and Erevis Cale become gods by drinking from an artifact-chalice, then killing a character (can't remember name) who had a 'divine spark' stolen from a god.
-Said character, having stolen from Mask.
-Mask, having stolen from Shar.
-Mephistopheles gained additional portfolio elements, by consuming Erevis Cale's soul (and Divine Spark).

... I really like those seven books, can you tell?

[Karnith]

In the Forgotten Realms, after the death of numerous gods during the Time of Troubles, a number of mortals, specifically Cyric, Midnight, and later Kelemvor Lyonsbane, ascended to divinity by decree of Ao, the overdeity of the campaign setting. They were involved in the deaths of several of the deities that they replaced (specifically Mystra, Bhaal, Myrkul, Bane), but only one of them (Cyric) was directly responsible for the murder of a god (Bhaal).

I'm not quite sure if you'd count it as divine ascension, but also in the Forgotten Realms, a drow named Danifae Yauntyrr was sent on a quest by Lolth to reach the Demonweb Pits at a time when Lolth was not responding to her worshipers/servants. Once she reached Lolth, she was consumed by the goddess, who was taking the form of eight spiders. With that done, Lolth promptly died and was reborn as a hybrid of the spider and Danifae. It's unclear in the book, however, how much of Danifae's personality survived after the event.

[Psyren]

A core example - Zuoken was once a human martial artist, who monked so hard that he became a god; His fluff implies heavily that he discovered the key to not sucking as a monk was in attaining psionics. Talk about fluff supporting crunch.

His fluff also mentions that he "ascended to godhood by climbing a silvery staircase to the moon." It's not totally clear whether accomplishing that feat was the act that resulted in his divinity, or whether he achieved divinity first, and then climbed the stairs to assume his new role formally.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Vecna's ascension is actually very specific. It's detailed in the 2nd ed module Die Vecna Die! It came out very ate in the print run and was intended to be a final adventure for 2nd ed campaigns and it has an ending that justifies the very fabric of the multiverse being altered.

Big V made third ed, it's probably why wizards are so OP.

Of course this also means you don't have to make his method of ascension work since it was exploiting loopholes in the 2nd ed universe which were presumably closed.

[Karnith]

Also, I believe in the Greyhawk campaign setting (not entirely sure, though), Mellifleur was a mortal wizard performing the ritual to become a lich when he screwed it up. Luckily for him, he did this at the same time that Nerull was elevating one of his servants to divinity. Mellifleur managed to siphon off the divine energy (entirely by accident) and to become the god of lichdom.

[herrhauptmann]

FRCS:
-Drasek Riven, Rivalen Tanthul, and Erevis Cale become gods by drinking from an artifact-chalice, then killing a character (Volumvax aka Kesson Rel) who had a 'divine spark' stolen from a god.
-Said character, having stolen from Mask.
-Mask, having stolen from Shar.
-Mephistopheles gained additional portfolio elements, by consuming Erevis Cale's soul (and Divine Spark).

... I really like those seven books, can you tell?
There's a short story in the book "Realms of War" you might want to read...
You ever seen someone stat up Riven? I can't help but feel he and Cale should be gestalt.

Urpriest,
The usual method is by killing a god. Usually a god of whatever you want to become a god of. So a wizard killing a god of war probably won't become a god of magic. But an ubercharger killing a god of slaughter might manage ascension.
If you want it more detailed than that, include a quest where they try to find a container for the divinity first. In Gazziens example, they had to drink from a particular cup that hollowed (and hallowed) them out to make room for the spark. But that cup was only for servants of shadow and night. There was also a time limit. If they took too long killing Rel, they'd die. Perhaps regular fort saves vs Oblivion every 10 minutes?

I think part of Kelemvor ascending was the belief that all of Cyrics servitors had in him.
During most of the book, he was imprisoned with no contact with everyone else. But Cyric was obsessed with him for some reason. As Cyrcis methods and madness got worse, the dead and his servitors began to rebel against him. They began to believe that Kelemvor would help them.
When eventually Cyric fled the city of the dead (leaving Kelemvors ghost behind), that belief took root in him. Making him a god.

How much belief does it take though? For Kelemvor it was the belief of all the servitors and petitioners living in the city of the dead. As well as the very potent belief/fear of a greater deity or three.
There's a handbook somewhere that says you need like 1.39 million people believing in you, with another 5 million offering lip service without belief (no jokes please :smallbiggrin:). And the way to optimize your persuasion, bluff and leadership is X. If you optimize right, all those people believe in you, and make you a god outright. That's LAME. It's all crunch, no fluff or story.

[Psyren]

Hitler Zarus (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a) has a pretty funny ascension story; take the worst Mary Sue self-insert fanfiction you could ever imagine, then multiply it by ten and make it the scripture of your church. It's highly dogmatic, so it's hard to tell if he actually achieved divinity that way, but it's still a potential method.

Kurtulmak's route is similar as well.

[Karnith]

There's a handbook somewhere that says you need like 1.39 million people believing in you, with another 5 million offering lip service without belief (no jokes please :smallbiggrin:). And the way to optimize your persuasion, bluff and leadership is X. If you optimize right, all those people believe in you, and make you a god outright. That's LAME. It's all crunch, no fluff or story.
I believe that you're referring to the descriptions of Divine Ranks, which can be found on the SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineRanks). They are much more descriptive (i.e. "demigods usually have a few hundred worshipers") than prescriptive (i.e. "you become a demigod when you have a few hundred worshipers"), though, so it isn't a hard and fast rule for ascension.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Haven't all of the Illumian gods 'spoken' themselves into divinity?

[Doorhandle]

Their is no description of what it is, but in pathfinder, the test of the star-stone, when passed, allows one to ascend to godhood and/or demigodhood. Of note are:


Aroden, a currently dead god who first raised the stone from the bottom of the sea, founding Absalom.
Iomedae, a worshiper of Aroden who became his herald, and may have ascended to full divinity buy now
Norgorber, whose life prior to the test is unknown, and is the current god of thievery and assassination.
Cayden Cailean, who took it on a drunken bet and WON. To this day, he still cannot remember how he did it. :smallbiggrin:


All the other gods seem to have been born into godhood. Interestingly, tricking people into worshipping you isn't inherently enough to make you a god in pathfinder, as demonstrated by Razmir, a false god who neverless has an entire nation of worshippers.

On a similar note, several entities are notified as Daemonic Harbingers, Nascent Demon Lords or Infernal Dukes, unique feinds who are powerful in their own rights but not powerful enough to become demon lords, horsemen, or archdevils respectively.

[Alleran]

Aroden, a currently dead god who first raised the stone from the bottom of the sea, founding Absalom.
Iomedae, a worshiper of Aroden who became his herald, and may have ascended to full divinity buy now
Norgorber, whose life prior to the test is unknown, and is the current god of thievery and assassination.
Cayden Cailean, who took it on a drunken bet and WON. To this day, he still cannot remember how he did it. :smallbiggrin:

Aroden didn't do it by passing the Test of the Star-Stone, according to James Jacobs. He was the one who established the Test, which the other three passed, but he ascended through different means.

Also in Pathfinder, IIRC:

- Irori (attained supreme perfection of self)
- Nethys (unknown method)
- Urgathoa (evil willpower)
- Lamashtu (mother of demons)

Pazuzu also has a long-standing feud with Lamashtu, because he and Nocticula are the next two closest demon lords to reaching true godhood.

Sarenrae and Desna originally weren't divine, per se, but became gods (Sarenrae used to be an Empyreal Lord, and Desna was... well, something more Lovecraft-y before she took on her current form, or so it's implied). Pathfinder also has the Monkey King, and Arazni was raised to demigod status by Aroden (before Tar-Baphon killed her, that is). There's also Besmara, who used to be a "water spirit" of some form who, through consuming enough of her rivals, ascended to godhood.

Granted, not all of these were pure mortals to begin with, but they didn't start out as gods. Of importance in Pathfinder is that gods don't gain power from worship. What they gain, if anything, is something that hasn't been revealed.

Oh, and in FR, there's also Velsharoon. He followed a sequence laid out by Talos that ended in Talos sponsoring his ascension. When he realised that Talos would use him as a pawn at best and whipping boy at more likely levels, he defected and ran to Azuth and Mystra, who together shielded him from Talos' wrath.


Hitler Zarus (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a) has a pretty funny ascension story; take the worst Mary Sue self-insert fanfiction you could ever imagine, then multiply it by ten and make it the scripture of your church. It's highly dogmatic, so it's hard to tell if he actually achieved divinity that way, but it's still a potential method.
Zarus is just Pelor before the latter grew a beard. Look at their holy symbols for proof!

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Zarus is just Pelor before the latter grew a beard. Look at their holy symbols for proof!

That's awesome! I've always wanted to play both a cleric of Zarus and A cleric of THE BURNING HATE! My to do list just got one item shorter.

[ArcturusV]

Well, the one I can recall is Raistlin Majere from Dragonlance. He ascended to Godhood by using a portal to the Divine Realm, and a ritual involving magic that only the "most powerful mage of the black robes" (Evil Wizards), and "A cleric of Paladine" (Goody two shoes) could enact together in a secret ritual. Then he became a Godling, kicked the ass of the evil Goddess and took over her position (eventually taking over all the gods, and leading to the end of all creation before he got Time Traveled into Defeat).

[Phelix-Mu]

So, I don't know a lot about Eberron, but I wanted to make a footnote about the incorporation of an individual into various forms of celestial/otherwise collective beings (Silver Flame is the pertinent example) that, combined, have the power of a deity. Not quite the same as "ascension," but close enough that you may want to describe the general mechanic behind the process (coincidence of dogmas/practice with the collective, contact between collective and would-be member, dissolution of the self upon assimilation into the collective and exact scope of loss of self and identity).

Generally, I would like to summarize a bit here:

- Plot device (artifact, election by the overgod)
- Going to the source (stealing divinity from someone that already has it; subset involves demon lords/archfiends bumping off other quasi-divine beings to gradually consolidate power and move toward deification)
- Earning it personally, through significant accomplishment, self-perfection, unique service to the universe (lots of similarity to plot device, but a little less arbitrary)
- Being worshiped by others (doesn't always work, you'd need to describe why sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't)

[Urpriest]

All: When I have time I'm going to put together a table in the OP with a list of all the ascended gods by setting along with their method of ascension.


In the Forgotten Realms, after the death of numerous gods during the Time of Troubles, a number of mortals, specifically Cyric, Midnight, and later Kelemvor Lyonsbane, ascended to divinity by decree of Ao, the overdeity of the campaign setting. They were involved in the deaths of several of the deities that they replaced (specifically Mystra, Bhaal, Myrkul, Bane), but only one of them (Cyric) was directly responsible for the murder of a god (Bhaal).





Urpriest,
The usual method is by killing a god. Usually a god of whatever you want to become a god of. So a wizard killing a god of war probably won't become a god of magic. But an ubercharger killing a god of slaughter might manage ascension.
If you want it more detailed than that, include a quest where they try to find a container for the divinity first. In Gazziens example, they had to drink from a particular cup that hollowed (and hallowed) them out to make room for the spark. But that cup was only for servants of shadow and night. There was also a time limit. If they took too long killing Rel, they'd die. Perhaps regular fort saves vs Oblivion every 10 minutes?

I think part of Kelemvor ascending was the belief that all of Cyrics servitors had in him.
During most of the book, he was imprisoned with no contact with everyone else. But Cyric was obsessed with him for some reason. As Cyrcis methods and madness got worse, the dead and his servitors began to rebel against him. They began to believe that Kelemvor would help them.
When eventually Cyric fled the city of the dead (leaving Kelemvors ghost behind), that belief took root in him. Making him a god.

How much belief does it take though? For Kelemvor it was the belief of all the servitors and petitioners living in the city of the dead. As well as the very potent belief/fear of a greater deity or three.
There's a handbook somewhere that says you need like 1.39 million people believing in you, with another 5 million offering lip service without belief (no jokes please :smallbiggrin:). And the way to optimize your persuasion, bluff and leadership is X. If you optimize right, all those people believe in you, and make you a god outright. That's LAME. It's all crunch, no fluff or story.

There seems to be a bit of a contradiction here. Did Kelemvor rise by decree of Ao, or due to worship?

In terms of killing a god (which does seem a common method), could people list whether the new god gained the entirety of the old god's power, or merely a portion of it?


Vecna's ascension is actually very specific. It's detailed in the 2nd ed module Die Vecna Die! It came out very ate in the print run and was intended to be a final adventure for 2nd ed campaigns and it has an ending that justifies the very fabric of the multiverse being altered.

Big V made third ed, it's probably why wizards are so OP.

Of course this also means you don't have to make his method of ascension work since it was exploiting loopholes in the 2nd ed universe which were presumably closed.

Not having read Die Vecna Die!, can you describe the method of ascension involved?

[Karnith]

There seems to be a bit of a contradiction here. Did Kelemvor rise by decree of Ao, or due to worship?
It's been a while since I've read Prince of Lies, but the support of the dead spirits and fiends in the Gray Wastes was instrumental to Kelemvor ascending to godhood. I'm fairly certain that Ao was involved, but as I do not have any books handy, I cannot provide a citation.

In the Forgotten Realms, mortals killing a deity does not seem to be (directly) involved in ascension; Torm and Bane destroyed each other, and Cyric only killed Bhaal, but Cyric received the portfolios and divine power of not only Bhaal, but also Myrkul and Bane. After ascending to godhood, Cyric was able to gain Leira's portfolio by murdering her, but the rules may change once you ascend.

[Acanous]

Since deities have lots of "no resisting this unless you have X divine ranks" abilities, I want to create rules for PCs to gain divinity. I want these rules to be balanced, and I want to make it hard to achieve divinity even under significant optimization.

This part right here is actually rather easy to negate with a sufficiently high Will save and the Divine Denial feat (which has the Prereq of Iron will.)

I'm surprised we don't see it on more BBEG's.

[ArcturusV]

Well, in Raistlin' case, killing Tahkisis, Goddess of Evil Dragons is kind of vague on power. What it SOUNDED like, is that he used the aforementioned ritual to basically rip his way in Tahkisis's personal realm/inner sanctum. Where he'd grow gradually weaker as he suffered through all the torments the Goddess could throw at him. He wouldn't do anything to defend himself based on the belief that he needed to harbor his magical power for the final battle, and that if he could weather the mostly Morale based Torments Tahkisis was throwing at him without resorting to magic, it would give him an edge in the confrontation.

He also thought her realm was a complete mirror of Krynn and he had to travel, on foot, across basically the whole of a continent to finally get a shot at the Goddess.

Part way through he has a eureka moment, where he realizes that he was suffering because he believed Tahkisis's realm operated on similar rules as the mortal realm. It's not clear if he tapped into some of Tahkisis's power, or if his own arcane power was just beast enough to do it on his own. But he basically figured out how to control the entire plane and warp it to his will. It was no longer a weapon that was sapping him of strength and will, it was a tool he could use in the fight against the Goddess.

If I remember properly though, even THAT wasn't enough to "Seal the Deal" against the Goddess. The fact he was the most powerful mage of all time, AND had the power of the Abyss Realm. It was just enough to give him the ability to fight her to a standstill. In the end he ripped open a portal to the mortal realm with the last of his power... and then there was some vagueness about how he pushed her out/tricked her out depending on the timeline... and Tahkisis manifesting in the mortal realm (In her true, terrible form thanks to Raistlin's portal) was some gross violation that caused every other god to smite her as soon as she stepped onto the world. And then Raistlin had some method (Perhaps because he had mastered the Abyss), to take her mantle of godhood.

That is all the details I can recall.

[Alleran]

There seems to be a bit of a contradiction here. Did Kelemvor rise by decree of Ao, or due to worship?
Both.

In FR, you need Ao's permission to go above DvR 0 (or the equivalent). Kelemvor had the worship and belief of all those in the City of Judgement, but Ao's agreement (which was tacitly given) was required to let that belief work and ascend him to godhood (robbing Cyric of the power and portfolio of Death in the process).

[Urpriest]

This part right here is actually rather easy to negate with a sufficiently high Will save and the Divine Denial feat (which has the Prereq of Iron will.)

I'm surprised we don't see it on more BBEG's.

That applies to divine spells, not to salient divine abilities.

[Arcanist]

Not having read Die Vecna Die!, can you describe the method of ascension involved?

It varies from source to source, but Die Vecna, Die! suggest that Vecna was a Godling, however when he consumed the powers of Iuz and attempted to bruteforce his way out of Ravenloft, into the city of Sigil he triggered his ascension and became a God, while inside the city of Sigil which is how he was actually allowed to be there without the Lady just popping in and saying "No".

[avr]

In Eberron, the Sovereign Host and their enemies all have (different) draconic forms which suggest that being associated with a draconic lineage was part of it. There's no clear record of a time before the Host however so no direct clues as to their ascension.

Vol, of course, is the last (un)living bearer of the Dragonmark of Death; it is apparently inactive on her since her death however so she is divine because she is worshipped rather than vice versa.

Rulership of the realm of dreams is rather close to godhood if it isn't there. The details are unclear but apparently the present regime in Dal Quor won a war.

[Hikarizu]

Somewhat relevant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYprdmE1dFc)
Now serious.
Orcus was for a short time a god. He long sought divinity. After slain and resurrected by a surge of negative energy, he arose as Tenebrous, a god of darkness and undeath. The dude went casually slaying other gods in his quest for more power. He wanted to reincarnate himself, because he wished to be god as Orcus, not Tenebrous. He was slain by mortal heroes and managed to rise again, but not as a god, but as the demon prince he once was.
But true divinity can never fade completely. The remains of his godly power are now the vestige Tenebrous, a pale reflection of what he once was, a shadow of a shadow.

[Vizzerdrix]

Cas (Page 19. HoH) Exalted himself after the murder of his family wasn't properly dealt with by the law of his town and no one would help him get justice.

[Frozen_Feet]

Keep on going, this thread is a valuable resource for me as well if I decide to include more ways to divinity in my own deific rules. :smallbiggrin:



Since deities have lots of "no resisting this unless you have X divine ranks" abilities, I want to create rules for PCs to gain divinity. I want these rules to be balanced, and I want to make it hard to achieve divinity even under significant optimization.


Coincidentally, I'm also working on my rewrite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270715) of divinity rules, and I too hope for them to be somewhat "balanced" in the end.

However, I'm doing pretty much the opposite of what you're after. My first step was to get rid of most no-resist abilities and immunities you used to get simply by virtue of being a god. Next, I refashioned the rules so that being a god is a major burden.

Then I made it so that with meager levels of optimization, it's trivially easy to become a god. However, it's so much work no-one might want to. :smallbiggrin:

[Kol Korran]

It's quite hard talking about ascension to deity status in Eberron since the main shtick of the setting concerning religion is that it is close to real world religions- you may believe that the gods exist, but there is no proof. (anddivine characters get their powers by belief, no proof that any god has anything to do with it. The closest "ascension to godhood" documented on Eberron is Vol's starting her own religion, and getting followers who can cast spells. but she is hardly anything of a god like power.

Also- no two religions in Eberron agree on what being a deity means, and they give vastly different interpertations as to godhood and the interactions gods have with the world. nearly no religion actually thinks of them as actual characters, but more as forces, influences, ideals and such, in this way or another. (yes, even the stories about the Sovereign Host as people are more as parables than "the way things are")

that said:



Eberron:
{table=head]Deity|Method
Several parts of the Silver Flame|Absorption into preexisting god
[/table]
The silver flame religion sprung (though it's followers believe it existed long before) but as far as I recall (AFB) it didn't absorb parts into it... worthy enough souls are said to join the silver flame, but I don't think that makes them eligble as gods.

if at all the Silver Flame is a splinter of Dol Arrah, but it's an entirely different representation of what godhood is.


In Eberron, the Sovereign Host and their enemies all have (different) draconic forms which suggest that being associated with a draconic lineage was part of it. There's no clear record of a time before the Host however so no direct clues as to their ascension.
dragons of Ebrron gives a bit more info. the dragons believe that they can become the gods of the lesser races- the Sovereigns (the Sovereign Host +Dark Six, but no Traveler for some reason). If a dragon works real hard all his life to embody the principles of the deity, he may turn into it once it becomes a great wyrm.

but that is just a stepping point, a way in between. since from these "gods" the draconic gods (Io, Chronpesis and so on) will be chosen when Prophecy runs it's course, and a new cycle of the world begins.

needless to say, many of the common races think this is arrogant as hell. also- again there is no proof of ascending. It's a belief, take it for what you will.

[Gazzien]

There's a short story in the book "Realms of War" you might want to read...
You ever seen someone stat up Riven? I can't help but feel he and Cale should be gestalt.

I've read Realms of War (and own it), sadly I don't own the books that happen before Twilight Falling... which makes me sad...

Erevis Cale is statted out, and so is Weaveshear. I forget what other characters were statted out with him, though...

http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/erevis-35.htm
There we go. By Paul S Kemp, no less. In 3.5. But I would think he's quite a bit more powerful than that...

[Mnemnosyne]

Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul hunted down one of the 'Seven Lost Gods' (don't think these beings have ever been further defined) and took their essence, in order to 'qualify' them for real godhood. Then they went after Jergal, who instead of putting up a fight, went 'meh, I'm bored' and had them play a game to determine who would get first pick among his portfolios. Then he voluntarily gave up most of his portfolios, and became an obscure demipower (where he remains as seneschal under Kelemvor, even today).

[hamishspence]

Forgotten Realms deity that hasn't been mentioned yet- Finder Wyvernspur.

Killed Moander with a shard of para-elemental ice, in Song of the Saurials, took his portfolio of rot (not much use to him) and developed his own portfolio of "reinvention"- I think his ascension required Tymora as a sponsor though.

[herrhauptmann]

I've read Realms of War (and own it), sadly I don't own the books that happen before Twilight Falling... which makes me sad...

Erevis Cale is statted out, and so is Weaveshear. I forget what other characters were statted out with him, though...

http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/erevis-35.htm
There we go. By Paul S Kemp, no less. In 3.5. But I would think he's quite a bit more powerful than that...

Ooh, thank you for the link. :D It's interesting, when I was trying to stat Cale, that's pretty much how I did Weaveshear. Though I tried Spellblade rather than Absorbing.
A friend played in a game run by Kemp a while back, said that Kemp is a fantastic DM. He actually called me up to gloat. :smallfurious:


I've read most of the 7-book series "Sembia:Gateway to the realms." And honestly, I really wasn't impressed with most of it. The drastically different approach to writing they all use takes away from a series that's supposed to be connected like that.
Shadows Witness was great, Kemp did a great job creating a feeling of suspense or fear when it was appropriate. Maybe not as good as he did in the start of shadowbred, but that's a matter of experience I think.
The initial set of short stories was worth keeping as well, but that's probably it. Mind you, I missed two books, for Thamalon 2, and his mother.

[Psyren]

Faerun example not yet mentioned - The Red Knight. I think Tempus basically deputized her (though it's unclear whether she was entirely mortal before that anyway) so that he could keep Garagos outmaneuvered.


Forgotten Realms deity that hasn't been mentioned yet- Finder Wyvernspur.

Killed Moander with a shard of para-elemental ice, in Song of the Saurials, took his portfolio of rot (not much use to him) and developed his own portfolio of "reinvention"- I think his ascension required Tymora as a sponsor though.

That one never made sense to me - Killing Moander and taking his divinity I can understand, but their portfolios had nothing in common. And doesn't Moander still grant spells, or is that someone posing as him?

[Gazzien]

Ooh, thank you for the link. :D It's interesting, when I was trying to stat Cale, that's pretty much how I did Weaveshear. Though I tried Spellblade rather than Absorbing.
A friend played in a game run by Kemp a while back, said that Kemp is a fantastic DM. He actually called me up to gloat. :smallfurious:


I've read most of the 7-book series "Sembia:Gateway to the realms." And honestly, I really wasn't impressed with most of it. The drastically different approach to writing they all use takes away from a series that's supposed to be connected like that.
Shadows Witness was great, Kemp did a great job creating a feeling of suspense or fear when it was appropriate. Maybe not as good as he did in the start of shadowbred, but that's a matter of experience I think.
The initial set of short stories was worth keeping as well, but that's probably it. Mind you, I missed two books, for Thamalon 2, and his mother.
Ah, lucky! I can never find the books around me and I don't order stuff from the internet much/at all so I'm pretty much out of luck for them.

Your friend is extremely lucky, too.

And yeah, Kemp does a great job; he's the one that gave me my fascination with shades/ shadow-based powers in D&D... really wish Shadowcasters were done better...

[Urpriest]

Somewhat relevant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYprdmE1dFc)


For getting the reference:
http://ansnuclearcafe.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/cookie.gif


Keep on going, this thread is a valuable resource for me as well if I decide to include more ways to divinity in my own deific rules. :smallbiggrin:



Coincidentally, I'm also working on my rewrite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270715) of divinity rules, and I too hope for them to be somewhat "balanced" in the end.

However, I'm doing pretty much the opposite of what you're after. My first step was to get rid of most no-resist abilities and immunities you used to get simply by virtue of being a god. Next, I refashioned the rules so that being a god is a major burden.

Then I made it so that with meager levels of optimization, it's trivially easy to become a god. However, it's so much work no-one might want to. :smallbiggrin:

This is a good direction, in that it makes divinity actually playable. In my case I'm trying to make the existing divinity rules reasonable, but it's entirely possible that that will end up being somewhat futile.


It's quite hard talking about ascension to deity status in Eberron since the main shtick of the setting concerning religion is that it is close to real world religions- you may believe that the gods exist, but there is no proof. (anddivine characters get their powers by belief, no proof that any god has anything to do with it. The closest "ascension to godhood" documented on Eberron is Vol's starting her own religion, and getting followers who can cast spells. but she is hardly anything of a god like power.

Also- no two religions in Eberron agree on what being a deity means, and they give vastly different interpertations as to godhood and the interactions gods have with the world. nearly no religion actually thinks of them as actual characters, but more as forces, influences, ideals and such, in this way or another. (yes, even the stories about the Sovereign Host as people are more as parables than "the way things are")

that said:


The silver flame religion sprung (though it's followers believe it existed long before) but as far as I recall (AFB) it didn't absorb parts into it... worthy enough souls are said to join the silver flame, but I don't think that makes them eligble as gods.

if at all the Silver Flame is a splinter of Dol Arrah, but it's an entirely different representation of what godhood is.


dragons of Ebrron gives a bit more info. the dragons believe that they can become the gods of the lesser races- the Sovereigns (the Sovereign Host +Dark Six, but no Traveler for some reason). If a dragon works real hard all his life to embody the principles of the deity, he may turn into it once it becomes a great wyrm.

but that is just a stepping point, a way in between. since from these "gods" the draconic gods (Io, Chronpesis and so on) will be chosen when Prophecy runs it's course, and a new cycle of the world begins.

needless to say, many of the common races think this is arrogant as hell. also- again there is no proof of ascending. It's a belief, take it for what you will.

All good points. In terms of absorption, I'm referring to things like the Rakshasa being part of the Silver Flame, rather than the spirits of the faithful dead. But that said, it's a relevant point that the Silver Flame is hardly a traditional, deities and demigods-style god.

[Urpriest]

So looking over the examples, Forgotten Realms seems to be surprisingly consistent in that some combination of worship, Ao's wherewithal, and either the support of an existing deity or gaining an existing deity's divine spark (whether through killing them or some exotic form of theft) seems to be necessary, with no one element alone sufficient.

Pathfinder is pretty consistent too, in that aside from those who passed the test of the stone most ascended beings were powerful supernatural entities already, and simply made the comparatively small leap to godhood through an increase in personal power.

Core is, as always, completely heterogeneous. One thing that interests me is that a number of people simply become gods by being exceptional people, either through force of will or profound self-understanding. Any ideas on how to model that from a character perspective? Are there any existing mechanics out there that reward spending time navel-gazing?

[Alleran]

Killed Moander with a shard of para-elemental ice, in Song of the Saurials, took his portfolio of rot (not much use to him) and developed his own portfolio of "reinvention"- I think his ascension required Tymora as a sponsor though.
Yeah, Tymora sponsored him for full deity status.

[Cirrylius]

That's awesome! I've always wanted to play both a cleric of Zarus and A cleric of THE BURNING HATE! My to do list just got one item shorter.

I don't suppose that's a Final Fantasy reference?

[Urpriest]

I don't suppose that's a Final Fantasy reference?

The Burning Hate. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19558798/Pelor,_the_Burning_Hate)

[ArcturusV]

Well... the Monk fluff in 3rd/3.5 always seemed like a good path towards Immortality. I mean at level 20 they are (Fluff wise if not mechanic wise) transcending the limits of mortal flesh. They have honed the combination of spirit, mind, and body into one whole that is greater than any other mortal could have imagined.

This sort of Enlightenment seems an obvious approach towards Divinity if nothing else. At least for standard fluff monks.

Course, while it's 4th edition, their "Epic Destinies" almost always included some path towards Immortality, practical immortality sometimes too, suggesting a level of Godhood of a sorts (Rather than ones where you're "Immortal" due to legend and fame). So you could always crib some of those.

[Urpriest]

Well... the Monk fluff in 3rd/3.5 always seemed like a good path towards Immortality. I mean at level 20 they are (Fluff wise if not mechanic wise) transcending the limits of mortal flesh. They have honed the combination of spirit, mind, and body into one whole that is greater than any other mortal could have imagined.

This sort of Enlightenment seems an obvious approach towards Divinity if nothing else. At least for standard fluff monks.

Course, while it's 4th edition, their "Epic Destinies" almost always included some path towards Immortality, practical immortality sometimes too, suggesting a level of Godhood of a sorts (Rather than ones where you're "Immortal" due to legend and fame). So you could always crib some of those.

In terms of the monk example, though, I'd rather not just have it be a function of levels. I suppose what I'm asking is, are there any rules out there that give concrete benefits to characters who spend time contemplating/introspecting, and if so, how do they characterize that contemplation in-game?

The Epic Destinies are a though. IIRC there are some 3.5 ones as well, made near the transition point. One of them might involve Demigodhood.

[hamishspence]

There were- in Dragon Magazine online, back when D&D Insider membership was free- and Demigod was one of those.

[Psyren]

Monks do not get to divinity by normal means - even the ones that make it to capstone still die when their time is up. They merely become native outsiders - literally living in the world without being part of the world, hence "outside."

As I pointed out in the Zuoken example, he combined psionics with monkitude:

"Zuoken attained such mental and physical perfection that he ascended into godhood. His clerics watch over psionic creatures, safeguarding them from harm and offering psionic training to all who show aptitude. Zuoken encourages his followers to be disciplined, serene masters of their minds and bodies."

the implication being that physical perfection - the standard goal of the monk - is not enough.