Riddle, too tough?

[Kornaki]

I'm putting a riddle into a dungeon I'm doing (if you're doing an E6 exploration game over email, please don't continue!

The riddle:
Over land, over seas, through the heavens if it please. It might bring tears, kill through years, leave you stalled or help you steer. Follow this and you'll be clear”

The solution and what it's used for

The solution to the puzzle is wind (it goes over land and seas and through the heavens. It might come with rain, it erodes things over times, and it can push your boat around in the water). The last line refers to at some point they will come to a hallway which has a continuous gust of wind blowing through it. If they follow the wind they will be safe (well safer), if they try and track the wind's source (which might be more natural if they haven't solved the puzzle) they will find themselves facing an air elemental or something of that sort. I'm wondering if the puzzle is too hard, and also after it's solved if it's obvious you're supposed to go the way the wind is, and not follow the wind back to the source or something like that

[Lapak]

Well, the answer was the very first thing to come to my mind, so you have one data point for 'not too tough.'

[Sallera]

The riddle itself is of the ten-second variety, so no troubles there, and the verse is... acceptable. As for the puzzle, it seems fair enough as long as they put the two together - I don't know what you've got in place already, but you might want to check and make sure the mental connection between 'that riddle we found earlier' and 'something in this area' is at least somewhat intuitive to make.

[Synovia]

I'm gonna say my usual piece about riddles and the like for RPGs: The problems with these sort of challenges is that a player being bad at riddles doesn't mean his character is, and you really shouldn't punish him for not being as clever as his character. (Which means some sort of check should be able to get through it, or atleast give big hints.. which kind of trivializes it)

That being said, I don't see anything specifically wrong with the riddle itself.

[hymer]

Looks perfectly fine to me, though the 'kill through years' thing seemed weird.

[Berenger]

I got it in under 30 seconds and I'm not a native speaker - "leave you stalled or help you steer" gives it away rather easily.

[Kornaki]

I'm gonna say my usual piece about riddles and the like for RPGs: The problems with these sort of challenges is that a player being bad at riddles doesn't mean his character is, and you really shouldn't punish him for not being as clever as his character. (Which means some sort of check should be able to get through it, or atleast give big hints.. which kind of trivializes it)

This is a good point... I'll let the party have an int (reasonably hard, but each character gets it so there's a decent shot one of them gets it) check to figure out the riddle.


Looks perfectly fine to me, though the 'kill through years' thing seemed weird.


yeah I wasn't particularly happy about that part. I think I'm going to change it to something like "wear over years".


Thanks for the help everyone!

[Anxe]

I got it super fast, first guess.

As for the clue, right now it may be misunderstood that they should go towards where the wind is coming from. Misunderstanding riddles is fine I suppose. Something more clear to me is, "Go with this and you'll be clear."

[Xuc Xac]

kill through years, leave you stalled or help you steer.

I didn't get it because of this part. When I saw the answer, I was confused. Nothing lives long enough to be hurt by wind erosion. When the wind kills, it happens very quickly in a powerful storm. "Stall" and "steer" are the wrong words to use for wind. Before the airplane was invented, "stall" was only used for things like wheeled vehicles getting stuck in the mud (or, much later, engines stopping by accident). Until airplanes and dirigibles, no vehicle was steered by the wind. Sailing ships are propelled by wind, but all the steering happens under water by the rudder, oars, and/or keel. I suppose it's theoretically possible to steer a boat or land vehicle by using the wind, but it's much, much less efficient than just pushing against the ground or water to turn.

[hymer]

"stall" was only used for things like wheeled vehicles getting stuck in the mud (or, much later, engines stopping by accident).

The etymology of 'stall' is pretty old, and its early meaning in its current form was 'bring to a halt' (or 'reside', but that's besides the purpose). It makes perfect sense today, and it made perfect sense before the airplane.


Sailing ships are propelled by wind, but all the steering happens under water by the rudder, oars, and/or keel. I suppose it's theoretically possible to steer a boat or land vehicle by using the wind, but it's much, much less efficient than just pushing against the ground or water to turn.

It doesn't say that you steer by the wind, but that the wind can help you steer. And this again makes perfect sense, as the wind can make it very easy for you to steer your ship (sailship or otherwise) if it's steady and you're on a straight course.

The reason for the two words is that they fit together. 'Stall' and 'steer' - look at the alliterative qualities.

[mjlush]

I'm putting a riddle into a dungeon I'm doing (if you're doing an E6 exploration game over email, please don't continue!


All riddles used in an RPG session are are too complex up to and including "Has four feet, goes meow, three letters... beginning with c and ending with t".

Never ever underestimate the creativity/stupidity of the players. Have a contingency plan in case they either fail to get it or conclude the obvious solution is too obvious and come up with their own perverse interpretation.

[Zombimode]

I'm gonna say my usual piece about riddles and the like for RPGs: The problems with these sort of challenges is that a player being bad at riddles doesn't mean his character is, and you really shouldn't punish him for not being as clever as his character. (Which means some sort of check should be able to get through it, or atleast give big hints.. which kind of trivializes it)

That being said, I don't see anything specifically wrong with the riddle itself.


Is that really your experience? Because I find that highly unlikely. Roleplaying is a mental activity. It tends to attract people who like to use their brains.
The riddles that typically come up in fantasy stories and games, including the one in the OP, are not hard. I mean not really hard. Often they are easy enough that even childs can figure them out if they put their minds into them. If you don't have the brainpower to solve a riddle like this, you've got other problems with the game too.

It is rather the case that not all player enjoy solving riddles like this. And this lack of motivation may render them unable to solve it.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Your players may be smart, but those 18+ INT characters (or equivalent in whatever RPG rules you're using) are likely to be smarter - so I'm with Synovia on this: there needs to be a skill check / ability check / rules equivalent for the riddle.

The way I've worked this in my games is to let the players look at the riddle for a few minutes, in case they get it for themselves. You can usually tell when they're frustrated and annoyed, or when they're keen to figure it out for themselves.
Once they've puzzeld over it as much as they seem to want to, I offer to give them easy checks which reveal clues - usually up to three clues.
In this riddle's case, you might hint at tears = rain, or land / sea / heavens = not indoors or underground - that sort of thing.

If the players aren't getting it after three clues, in the case of this riddle in your game it doesn't matter too much (they fight a monster, but it's not a show stopper).
But if you put a riddle in the game that the players must solve to move on, then you need to either give them the answer eventually, or invent a way around, or let them fail and go home. Obviously, the last is the least satisfactory, but your mileage may vary.

[Zombimode]

so I'm with Synovia on this: there needs to be a skill check / ability check / rules equivalent for the riddle.

I disagree. Riddles are obviously meant to challenge the players, not the characters. If you offer a character based solution your are defeating the point of including the riddle in the first place.

If it would be a challenge for the characters, the Sphinx would not say: "Halt, travelers! Only those quick of mind may pass. Solve this riddle: [...]"

It would instead say: "Halt, travelers! Only those quick of mind may pass. Solve this: [complex mathematical/logical problem]"


This is the actual "problem" with riddles: the disconnect between the layer of the game world and the game itself (in contrast to almost all other challenges in most RPGs).
Whether that is a true problem depends on taste.

[mjlush]

I disagree. Riddles are obviously meant to challenge the players, not the characters. If you offer a character based solution your are defeating the point of including the riddle in the first place.

If it would be a challenge for the characters, the Sphinx would not say: "Halt, travelers! Only those quick of mind may pass. Solve this riddle: [...]"


<D&D>
The Riddle on the Sphinx is easily solved my killing the Sphinx
</D&D>

[KillianHawkeye]

In my experience, riddles are ALWAYS too tough. Maybe it's just my group, though.... :smallsigh:

[Dr Bwaa]

I'm with the majority here; the riddle itself is easy enough, save for the "kill" referring to wind erosion. I'm also in the camp who would think that "follow this and you'll be clear" means "follow it back to the source", however.

[Deophaun]

Your players may be smart, but those 18+ INT characters (or equivalent in whatever RPG rules you're using) are likely to be smarter
Conversely, the DM may be smart, but the epic wizard who wrote the riddle that has confounded the greatest scholars in the land for ten generations is much, much smarter.

Additionally, it seems this riddle is not required to advance the game. It merely makes things easier if the players figure it out. If they are stumped, they continue on and maybe choose the wrong path and face an air elemental. The stakes are low enough that it's not a big deal, adding more flavor to the adventure than anything else. Otherwise, I'd be arguing for the rule of three here.

[Kornaki]

Thanks for the advice guys. Does changing the last part to
Don't fight this and you'll be clear

Make it clearer what you're supposed to do?

[hymer]

I don't think it does, but then, you might not want it to be. It's a riddle after all. :smallsmile:
I'd go with the original over the suggestion you just made. It's a perfectly serviceable riddle, and from what I gather, even if they get it wrong they can still progress. Guessing the riddle is just a bonus for them, which is a great way for a riddle to work, IMO.

[Synovia]

Is that really your experience? Because I find that highly unlikely. Roleplaying is a mental activity. It tends to attract people who like to use their brains.
The riddles that typically come up in fantasy stories and games, including the one in the OP, are not hard. I mean not really hard. Often they are easy enough that even childs can figure them out if they put their minds into them. If you don't have the brainpower to solve a riddle like this, you've got other problems with the game too.

It is rather the case that not all player enjoy solving riddles like this. And this lack of motivation may render them unable to solve it.

Riddles just don't work for some people. Just as those little wooden puzzles, or rubicks cubes don't work for other people. Everyone is good at different things. The guy who can solve the rubicks cube in 10 seconds may not be able to handle a simple riddle, and vice versa.

A mid level wizard will have somewhere in the range of 25+ INT. Thats significantly smarter than the smartest human on earth. He's significantly more intelligent than the 14INT player playing him.

[Joe the Rat]

It really depends on the level your players are operating at. If your players are fairly clever with wordplay, it's not an issue.

For a riddle, it's good. Decent meter, not too esoteric, no Bat-logic or filthy pocketesses involved.

If it really isn't necessary to continue but provides useful clues, then there are no worries. If it's needed to continue, it's more problematic. My current game had us needing to riddle past a series of stone doors. It would have been all but impassable if we couldn't get them. But the GM had a decent gauge on our thinking, and we plowed through the riddles like halflings at a sphinx convention.

Yeah, give them an Intelligence (or an appropriate Knowledge or Lore) check to provide clues if they get stuck.

[Jay R]

For a riddle, it's good. Decent meter, not too esoteric, no Bat-logic or filthy pocketesses involved.

Oh, very well said. Expressive, clear, and complete.


I'm gonna say my usual piece about riddles and the like for RPGs: The problems with these sort of challenges is that a player being bad at riddles doesn't mean his character is, and you really shouldn't punish him for not being as clever as his character.

That's true, but no less true for any other decision in the game. You are either worse or better at small unit tactics than your character. You are either worse or better at figuring out who's lying to you. You are either worse or better at remembering how spells work, or what a monster's characteristics are, or what another class's abilities are.

If you have ever made a decision in the game without a die roll, you have abandoned the idea that the character's abilities are all that drives it, and accepted the fact that the players are actually playing a game.

If you can't accept that, there's no game to play.

[Synovia]

Oh, very well said. Expressive, clear, and complete.



That's true, but no less true for any other decision in the game. You are either worse or better at small unit tactics than your character. You are either worse or better at figuring out who's lying to you. You are either worse or better at remembering how spells work, or what a monster's characteristics are, or what another class's abilities are.

If you have ever made a decision in the game without a die roll, you have abandoned the idea that the character's abilities are all that drives it, and accepted the fact that the players are actually playing a game.

If you can't accept that, there's no game to play.

The bolded is a false dichotomy. There are other choices here.

We can strive to make the game as much based on the character ability as possible. Isn't that what roleplaying is? Trying to do what the character would do? How is saying "I don't know this riddle, but my character would" any different from saying "I don't know how to cast spells, but my character would". Both are backed up by the rules.

[Alex Star]

Oh, very well said. Expressive, clear, and complete.



That's true, but no less true for any other decision in the game. You are either worse or better at small unit tactics than your character. You are either worse or better at figuring out who's lying to you. You are either worse or better at remembering how spells work, or what a monster's characteristics are, or what another class's abilities are.

If you have ever made a decision in the game without a die roll, you have abandoned the idea that the character's abilities are all that drives it, and accepted the fact that the players are actually playing a game.

If you can't accept that, there's no game to play.

Jay,

I think the concept here is that it is a supported double standard. You don't "punish" players for not being as Smart, Clever, Charismatic as their characters. However, you do reward them for being Smarter, more Clever, and more Charismatic. At best you use die rolls whenever a Player is being "grossly out of character". When the Int 6 fighter is doing advanced mathematics. Or when the CHA 22 Bard can't think of something inspiring to say. Those are good times to use rolls to reflect that the character is significantly better or worse at something than the player.

However, in general if the character with an average intelligence comes up with a great idea for something you don't punish him by saying his character wouldn't have thought of that. You reward him by letting it work.

It's a double standard, and it's an intentional one.

[SowZ]

Yeah, pretty easy riddle. Quickly read through it twice and then got it right away. It certainly isn't unfair.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Is that really your experience? Because I find that highly unlikely. Roleplaying is a mental activity. It tends to attract people who like to use their brains.
The riddles that typically come up in fantasy stories and games, including the one in the OP, are not hard. I mean not really hard. Often they are easy enough that even childs can figure them out if they put their minds into them. If you don't have the brainpower to solve a riddle like this, you've got other problems with the game too.

(emphasis mine)
It seems that you're implying, or really straight-out saying, that someone who's bad at riddles doesn't have the brainpower to play D&D. As someone who plays D&D and enjoys it, especially the math of it (*points to math thread (http://alt.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270188)*), but happens to be really bad at riddles, I'm a little bit insulted.

[SamBurke]

My first thought was "Stars", not "Wind." You can't navigate with winds, they're fickle.

[SowZ]

My first thought was "Stars", not "Wind." You can't navigate with winds, they're fickle.

There are fairly consistent wind patterns on the planet. The trade winds work fairly well, and count as a type of navigation.

[Killer Angel]

I got it in under 30 seconds and I'm not a native speaker

Me too.


yeah I wasn't particularly happy about that part. I think I'm going to change it to something like "wear over years".

Yeah, it works better.


I'm also in the camp who would think that "follow this and you'll be clear" means "follow it back to the source", however.

I would follow the path of the wind, going in its direction.
So:

Thanks for the advice guys. Does changing the last part to
Don't fight this and you'll be clear

Make it clearer what you're supposed to do?
it's clearer, so don't. Leave some doubt about the correct interpretation on what direction they need to take.

[mjlush]

I'm gonna say my usual piece about riddles and the like for RPGs: The problems with these sort of challenges is that a player being bad at riddles doesn't mean his character is, and you really shouldn't punish him for not being as clever as his character. (Which means some sort of check should be able to get through it, or atleast give big hints.. which kind of trivializes it)

That being said, I don't see anything specifically wrong with the riddle itself.

There is another tangential aspect to this... what is the riddle doing there in the first place? Presumably its being used to conceal information, but who from?

If it simple enough for a for almost anyone to get on the first attempt its not exactly concealing anything (http://http://xkcd.com/370/).

OTOH if its Times Cryptic crossword class enough to conceal information from the hoi polloi, its good odds that no player has the experience to solve it.

Perhaps one way of squaring the circle would be to take a page out of one to three factor authentication ie Something you know, Something you have, Something you are

Thus a riddle meant for the party to get could be simple for them because they know what the web of stars is, have the spoon of the river and are the Knights of the Bastion.

OTHO a riddle they intercept could be impossible to get until they jump through the plot hoops to get all the factors (which may be a nice way to drive a campaign).

Riddles like that would be easy to justify in game assuming there is ready access to some kind of prediction spells.

[Synovia]

There are fairly consistent wind patterns on the planet. The trade winds work fairly well, and count as a type of navigation.

On a global scale, yeah. On a "not ending up 500 miles from where you're supposed to be", no. You can navigate by wind, but not by any precision.

If you're OK with ending up in London instead of Lisbon, they're fine.

[hymer]

@ mjlush: I'm sorry, I'm not sure I got that. Are you saying there's no sense in putting in a challenge which may be easily overcome?

@ Synovia: Why are you guys talking about navigation and wind? The riddle mentions that wind can help you steer, not navigate, right?

[Yora]

A good riddle is obvious if someone once told you the answer, but impossible if you don't. After all, it's purpose is to determine who should know the password and who doesn't. If it can be solved by just thining, it's worthless.

[hymer]

Ah, thanks, now I get it. That definitely makes sense in a lot of cases. So if your players are likely to think about something like that, you should have an explanation or an excuse (though actually giving it to them is a different matter).

[mjlush]

@ mjlush: I'm sorry, I'm not sure I got that. Are you saying there's no sense in putting in a challenge which may be easily overcome?


Its more a matter of realism. Consider in game why has someone gone to the bother of wrapping up information in a riddle.

One possibility is there doing it for fun, which suggests that the information there trying to convey is pretty trivial or they are completely irresponsible (the Dark Lord is normally reasonable bright or knows someone he can torture into solving the riddle)

The other possibility is they are genuinely trying to hide the information, if the riddle is simple clearly there trying to keep the information from someone much much stupider than the players (!!!!).

'Realistically' a riddle intended to actually protect the information from all but the intended recipient should be really hard (which gets me back to the 1 to n factor authentication)... For example you could create a riddle that could only be solved by Benedictine Monks by referencing everyday things that would be unique to them (or a scholar specializing in Monastic life)

IMHO thinking about this sort of thing could convert a riddle from being a bit of campaign fluff to something that helps drive the story on.

[Lapak]

A good riddle is obvious if someone once told you the answer, but impossible if you don't. After all, it's purpose is to determine who should know the password and who doesn't. If it can be solved by just thining, it's worthless.Depends on the purpose of the riddle and who it's supposed to ward off. Take the claw/lock door puzzles in Skyrim; the answer to the puzzle is literally written on the key. That seems kind of goofy at first, until you realize (or come across the journal of someone who realizes) that the point is not to keep people out, but keep the mindless undead IN. They can't solve even that basic a puzzle, so it's enough.

[Doxkid]

Seemed simple, but you can never be too sure with players.

One day they're solving ancient puzzles left and right using only the first three words of each, altered into three languages they dont speak and adjusted to work under the governing theorums of calculus. The next day they cant figure out how to open a glass jar.

[rockdeworld]

Roleplaying is a mental activity. It tends to attract people who like to use their brains.
Definitely not the case with my group.

@OP: I guess riddles aren't my thing, because it took me a minute to solve. My first thoughts were a ship and time, and only after I recompared my guesses to the riddle, it became obvious that it was wind, especially with the steers and stalls line.

IMO, the point of a riddle is to remind the person who wrote it of something using the least info possible so other people don't guess it. To that end, something shorter might work, like:
Follow the tear-bringer.
Which has the bonus of requiring context, becomes relatively obvious when you associate the hint with the answer, and doesn't screw the party even if they don't (i.e. they can just say "we'll probably figure that out later, come on let's go).