I know he is no good for.me -classes and prcs

[Pandoras Folly]

we all have something that caught our eye over the years, Classes and prestige classes that while not really well made, effective, or frankly just bad we cant seem to give up or like for no better than the fluff.

He's no good for me but I like the Elocator. Its only good for a couple builds, the stuff it gives you aren't too great, and the10th level cap is very lackluster. But man I love the art that went with it and the 1st level is pretty interesting and great for battle jumper builds.

[Aethir]

For me it's definitely the Pyrokineticist. I don't know what it is about it, but the class always draws me back in, and I end up making such stupid builds just to include it.

[Lord_Gareth]

Hammer of Moradin. Just...Hammer of Moradin.

[Karnith]

I love the True Necromancer much, much more than it deserves; the idea of a necromantic theurge is cool, but it's such garbage that I've never been able to stand playing one for more than a single gaming session before. I keep trying, though.

[drax75]

:smallfrown::smallfrown::smallfrown:

True Necromancer..... would be so much better if you could rebuke past your hit dice limitation and regain the spell casting lost.

I use to think this thing was powerful as hell before i saw those 2 notes....

Find a powerful Wight, rebuke the Wight, have the Wight kill and raise a small town, repeat, then repeat....

Since they are all under his control and he is under your control you dont count the raised undead against your hit dice..... But eventually you will lose control of the Wight and it all unravels...

[Karnith]

:smallfrown::smallfrown::smallfrown:

True Necromancer..... would be so much better if you could rebuke past your hit dice limitation and regain the spell casting lost.

I use to think this thing was powerful as hell before i saw those 2 notes....

Find a powerful Wight, rebuke the Wight, have the Wight kill and raise a small town, repeat, then repeat....

Since they are all under his control and he is under your control you dont count the raised undead against your hit dice..... But eventually you will lose control of the Wight and it all unravels...
The first few times I read the class's description (and the first time I played it), I thought that you progressed your spellcasting as a mystic theurge, rather than losing even more spellcasting as you advance. It was really disappointing to me when I realized that what I thought was an already-underpowered class was, in reality, even weaker.

[Keltaris]

Hoardstealer and Marshal, Hoardstealer and Marshal everywhere!

[limejuicepowder]

Reaping Mauler and Invisible Blade (can you tell CW was one of my first books?).

I thought IB was were it was at. This was before I knew about the errata, or GitP (and thus what I thought was OP....isn't).

Reaping Mauler still looks interesting to me, though grappling isn't a very applicable strategy.

[Psyren]

Truenamer! I can't leave it alone, the fluff is just too awesome! *weeps*



He's no good for me but I like the Elocator. Its only good for a couple builds, the stuff it gives you aren't too great, and the10th level cap is very lackluster. But man I love the art that went with it and the 1st level is pretty interesting and great for battle jumper builds.

It has pretty great stuff until level 7 I'd say, especially for Psyrogues. (Transporter alone makes the class worthwhile - a rogue that can teleport and plane shift naked? Can you imagine the kinds of heists he could pull? And bear in mind this is psionic plane shift, meaning you can get anywhere in the multiverse without needing a special metallic thingamajobber attuned to your destination.) Just drop out after that.



I thought IB was were it was at. This was before I knew about the errata, or GitP (and thus what I thought was OP....isn't).

You can recreate IB's pre-errata trick simply by taking the Surprising Riposte feat.

[Shining Wrath]

Bloodstorm Blade, because of the Blade Storm at level 10. It is probably not as powerful as a Wish, say, but the idea of attacking every enemy in the room with a thrown Great Sword (or Spiked Chain, just for the image) that you have put 200,000 gold pieces into making as deadly as possible is just wonderful.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Radiant Servant of Pelor

[JaronK]

Spellthief and Hellbreaker. Such cool concepts, but the execution just wasn't there. Even though Hellbreaker does get one amazing ability.

JaronK

[Silva Stormrage]

Radiant Servant of Pelor

Wait what? Radiant Servant of Pelor is AWESOME :smallconfused: It is utterly broken in an anti undead campaign.

I have to agree with Truenamer though... such a bad class mechanically... sooo awesome fluff wise.

Also Blackguard... its basically useless unless you want the cha to saves, and then you can just go evil paladin (Which actually wasn't that well written IMO either but better than blackguard...)

[JellyPooga]

The Shadowbane Inquisitor does it for me. I don't usually go for Paladins or other religious types, but the Shadowbane just seems to hit a weak spot. I mean, have you seen the artwork? Total. Mischevious. Donkey. Shame the class features aren't all that hot.

[Darius Kane]

Fochlucan Lyrist.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Oh, where to begin?

Spellthieves, Truenamers, Paladins and Lurks are probably some of the biggest offenders for me. Honestly, 90% of what the Lurk does, the PsyRogue does better.

I've got to agree with JellyPooga, though - I've got a weakness for Shadowbane Inquisitors.

[navar100]

Incarnum

I love the mechanics. It's a brilliant idea. My problem? You don't get enough Essentia. How much more is needed I couldn't say. Double RAW may be too much, but it's a good place to start and scale down as needed. Probably +50% RAW could do it. Interestingly, I find Incarnum works RAW if part of a gestalt. It's an efficient supportive boost to your other class.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Incarnum

I love the mechanics. It's a brilliant idea. My problem? You don't get enough Essentia. How much more is needed I couldn't say. Double RAW may be too much, but it's a good place to start and scale down as needed. Probably +50% RAW could do it. Interestingly, I find Incarnum works RAW if part of a gestalt. It's an efficient supportive boost to your other class.

Essentia is tight at low levels, yeah - so are a wizard's spells. But at higher levels? Assuming maximal investment (Incarnate 20 with Expanded Soulmeld Capacity), you can be running around with at least 4 soulmelds maxed out at all times. All of which you can reinvest with a swift action.

Azurin Incarnate 20 (with Bonus Essentia feat) has 29 points of essentia.

[Psyren]

The essentia cap is a bigger problem for me. the "skillmelds" are great at low levels when the boost is substantial, but +12 insight to a skill check doesn't cut it at high levels, not when you can get +20 insight with a single spell, or +30 competence with an item etc.

And the chakra binds are another problem - most of the good stuff is just too late. (There's even a Totemist meld with a Soul bind - they don't even get that chakra! Dammit, WotC.)

[Sir_Thaddeus]

Fighters. My favorite class since I began playing; I simply love all the archetypes associated with it. But, really, feats=class features? I'm trying to replace the Fighter's place in my heart with Warblade, but it's ... just not the same. I can't get the fluff out of my head.
Pathfinder did the Fighter slightly better, though.

[Vizzerdrix]

Gnome Artificer. And no, I'm not talking about the Eberron Artificer either. This little gem is from Magic of Faerun. It has wonky requirements to enter and and the stuff you get doesn't scale well, But you get to make machines that emulate spells! If only I could find a way to solve it's major problems* I just know I could get it to work right.



*Devices weigh far too much to carry more than a couple at a time. They also overlap body slots, as everything needs to use two slots (back/Belt + 1 other)

*Entry looks to be set up for Wizard/Rogue, but no sneak attack or spell progression makes that a somewhat painful entry.


EDIT: I'd also like to toss out the Mephling as the race that also inspires this feeling for me.

*The spells you get to emulate are a bit too weak by the time you can make their devices and activation is a standard action, so no iterative attacks.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

I remember the Rage Mage... the idea of someone whose magic abilities are at their best when they are too mad to think straight was just amusing. Unfortunate that the class could barely accomplish even what it set out to do.

[Amphetryon]

I always wanted Kensai to be better than it is.

[Big Fau]

Incarnum

I love the mechanics. It's a brilliant idea. My problem? You don't get enough Essentia. How much more is needed I couldn't say. Double RAW may be too much, but it's a good place to start and scale down as needed. Probably +50% RAW could do it. Interestingly, I find Incarnum works RAW if part of a gestalt. It's an efficient supportive boost to your other class.

Incarnum, like Psionics, works amazingly well in Gestalt. However your problems with Essentia are perplexing. While I admit it feels really low at first, it works out quite nicely at the mid-levels and at the high-levels you really don't even notice. I did like having a wand of Soul Boon (CL20) on hand while playing an Incarnate though. Not that I used it excessively.


I find myself wanting to like the Bloodclaw Master, but I keep drifting towards other PrCs when making martial adepts (or just going Warblade/Crusader 20).

[RFLS]

Monk and Shadowdancer are my big two. Dvati for a race, definitely.

[Greenish]

Fist of the Forest. It's cool because it gets barbarian into unarmed, unarmoured combat. It's not that great, because it's about unarmed, unarmoured combat. Also stupid code of conduct narrows the application of a perfectly serviceable street brawler.



Fighters. <…> I can't get the fluff out of my head.Fighter has fluff? :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

FWIW, Frostrager and Totem Rager can also do unarmed, unarmored barbarian combat. Both have the same problem of restrictive fluff though. (Though FR at least could just be "barbarian that lives somewhere really cold.")

[Rizhail]

Gnome Artificer. And no, I'm not talking about the Eberron Artificer either. This little gem is from Magic of Faerun. It has wonky requirements to enter and and the stuff you get doesn't scale well, But you get to make machines that emulate spells! If only I could find a way to solve it's major problems* I just know I could get it to work right.



*Devices weigh far too much to carry more than a couple at a time. They also overlap body slots, as everything needs to use two slots (back/Belt + 1 other)

*Entry looks to be set up for Wizard/Rogue, but no sneak attack or spell progression makes that a somewhat painful entry.


EDIT: I'd also like to toss out the Mephling as the race that also inspires this feeling for me.

*The spells you get to emulate are a bit too weak by the time you can make their devices and activation is a standard action, so no iterative attacks.

Agree wholeheartedly! I love the fluff of the class, but it just doesn't play well. I've actually tried a few times to come up with better versions of the class (one or two are posted somewhere in the homebrew section) just because I love the concept so much.

[TuggyNE]

Arcane Archer is so tempting, but terrible.

[Greenish]

FWIW, Frostrager and Totem Rager can also do unarmed, unarmored barbarian combat. Both have the same problem of restrictive fluff though. (Though FR at least could just be "barbarian that lives somewhere really cold.")Well, FotF's problem is that the fluff comes packaged as a class feature.

[Edit]: Also, would it kill the designers to give a bit more skill points to classes and PrCs?

[Psyren]

Arcane Archer is so tempting, but terrible.

PF to the rescue! (But lord, that BAB req.)


Well, FotF's problem is that the fluff comes packaged as a class feature.

Oh come on, you know you wanted to sleep in a ditch :smallbiggrin:

[javijuji]

Hexblade. Wish I could just take the 20 levels.

[Slipperychicken]

Fighters. My favorite class since I began playing; I simply love all the archetypes associated with it. But, really, feats=class features? I'm trying to replace the Fighter's place in my heart with Warblade, but it's ... just not the same. I can't get the fluff out of my head.
Pathfinder did the Fighter slightly better, though.

Same here. Although it's mostly the PF Fighter which I love. I really tried to build one right, but it's just so bland and weak, mechanically. Maybe if they just took Warblade or Crusader crunch and called it "Fighter".



Fighter has fluff? :smalltongue:

I see the Fighter as a grizzled mercenary/military-type who doesn't enter a screaming blood frenzy, spout koans at people, or blab about his God. He's the everyman; no Gods chose him for the job, he wasn't born a special snowflake with magic powers. Straightforward, level-headed, and good with a weapon, the Fighter is (or rather should be) the perfect guy to lead his squad into battle.

[mistformsquirrl]

Iaijutsu Master from Oriental Adventures. Nothing has ever quite caught my imagination the same way iaido has, and that class is just so damn *stylish*.

Sadly it isn't all that great, as with the Oriental Adventures Samurai that's intended to precede it. (I love that one too; and in spite of their flaws will happily play them.)

[The Viscount]

Reaping Mauler [...] Reaping Mauler still looks interesting to me, though grappling isn't a very applicable strategy.

I thought I was the only one! I so wish it were better. I like to think Soulknife could be good, especially in a campaign where the DM doesn't give you any money, but I know average BA on what amounts to a martial character is just ruinous.

[Sception]

Normally I'm not prone to this. If I think a class, prestige class, or what have you is terrible, then I don't like it. If I like what it was trying to do, to me that just layers insult to the injury.

I mean, I love necromancy, but the True Necromancer? Ugh. No.


But even I have a guilty pleasure, a secret love, that must be hidden from prying eyes, for the shame is too much to stand. Well, no more! I cannot stand living a lie any longer.

My name is Malisteen, and I'm in love with the Shadowcaster! There, now you all know my secret shame, but I'm not sorry! Shadowcaster and I will ride off into the sunset and get married, and have horrible, ugly, unoptimizeable children who will one day grow up to be 4e Ossassins.

[Greenish]

Oh come on, you know you wanted to sleep in a ditch :smallbiggrin:Of course I do, but I want it to be my own choice. :smalltongue:


I see the Fighter as a grizzled mercenary/military-type who doesn't enter a screaming blood frenzy, spout koans at people, or blab about his God. He's the everyman; no Gods chose him for the job, he wasn't born a special snowflake with magic powers. Straightforward, level-headed, and good with a weapon, the Fighter is (or rather should be) the perfect guy to lead his squad into battle.
In other words, fighter's fluff is like it's class features, bland and scarce. :smallamused:

[OverdrivePrime]

Fochlucan Lyrist.
^x2

I'm also too-often lured by the siren song of the Frenzied Berserker. I've always wanted to play a character similar to Orson from Record of Lodoss War (http://youtu.be/vUEu3CLi-V8), where the power of a berserker is a terrible curse (see also: Guts the Hundred Man Slayer (http://youtu.be/Qacgb2b8LVU)). Unfortunately... that level of awesome really is a curse, and it requires an adventuring party that is deeply understanding (and smart enough to GTFO when you snap), or one truly, truly dedicated friend who happens to be a cleric or bard.

Also - I love the Spirit Shaman class, but it always winds up frustrating me with it's mish-mash of barely related class abilities.

[lsfreak]

I'll second hexblade and shadowcaster. I love those two.

The thing I have an obsession with is "paladins," divine characters with a focus on martial combat, but thanks to RKV, ordained champions, and just plain opfu'd clerics it's not really a negative. I might agree on Shadowbane Inquisitors, though.

[Gnome Alone]

I love the Spirit Shaman class, but it always winds up frustrating me with it's mish-mash of barely related class abilities.


Never played one, but can't you console yourself with, like, the Druid spell list?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Never played one, but can't you console yourself with, like, the Druid spell list?

I've actually played one. SS 3-SS 7/Stormlord 5.

They're pretty fun, and I'm in love with the way their spellcasting works.

[JellyPooga]

Also - I love the Spirit Shaman class, but it always winds up frustrating me with it's mish-mash of barely related class abilities.

I've got to agree with Gnome Alone here; the Spirit Shaman has nothing to complain about. The Druid spell list is pretty awesome. True, their class features are not amazingly impressive (though I do truly love the Ghost Warrior ability, situational though it is), but at the end of the day, they're another full caster. I like 'em!

On topic, another one I like is the Warlock. No not the optimised glaive-locks and the like...just the straight up, mish mash of Invocations, Eldritch Blast-ing Warlock of sub-par-ness. Pew pew! Hee hee hee.

[Phelix-Mu]

Spellfire Channeler. In fact, all of spellfire mechanic was butchered (and then terribly neglected in the 3.5 update). I tried to salvage the workings of spellfire for a part-time character in the last campaign I ran. No easy task, especially in the light of warlock being a strong class from a setting perspective (existence of caster-type classes with infinite use abilities), but mediocre from an op perspective. A travesty, since spellfire is epic win flavor from way back in the day.

Anyway, I did a decent job, I think, but Spellfire Channeler is just a useless PrC. Great flavor, terrible implementation (encouraging spellcaster entry in a concept that is more of an anti-caster... no brain child at work here). I made a five level PrC gish version that mimicked some of its qualities with campaign-specific flavor, and called it a day.

Spellfire Hierophant is only moderately less useless, but it sucks because it's built on the back of a terrible PrC.

I will second Arcane Archer, and add in Bladesinger. Both were very cool in previous editions, and were since lowered to average at best, terrible at worst. I am going to implement some kind of PF-esque Arcane Archer in houserules, along with a myriad of related support for archery and other mundane ranged combat.

[Xenogears]

Iaijutsu Master from Oriental Adventures. Nothing has ever quite caught my imagination the same way iaido has, and that class is just so damn *stylish*.

Sadly it isn't all that great, as with the Oriental Adventures Samurai that's intended to precede it. (I love that one too; and in spite of their flaws will happily play them.)

Iaijutsu Master would actually make a pretty good PrC for a stealthy Rogue skill monkey type. Getting Int and Cha as bonuses to stuff, getting even more dmg in surprise rounds, getting the free surprise round in the first round, getting two attacks as a standard action (good for surprise rounds again), etc. It even gives you weapon finesse for a katana so you can more or less dump str.

All in all I think it fills it's role very nicely. The only major flaws with it are that you have to build around it and will suck massively until you can use it and that melee sucks....

[Greenish]

Spellfire Hierophant is only moderately less useless, but it sucks because it's built on the back of a terrible PrC.I first read that as "Sapphire Hierophant" and was about to point out that it's not too bad.

[Eugenides]

Reaping Mauler and Invisible Blade (can you tell CW was one of my first books?).

I thought IB was were it was at. This was before I knew about the errata, or GitP (and thus what I thought was OP....isn't).

Reaping Mauler still looks interesting to me, though grappling isn't a very applicable strategy.

Your story is exactly identical to mine.

[ArcturusV]

Well, the one I always wanted to try out was the Eunich Warlock Prestige Class. Even though it's a pretty damned weak 10 level Prestige Class since it doesn't give proper spellcasting progression. I liked the fluff for it though and the idea of the class. Sadly I never was allowed to take it, and no one in a campaign I DMed would ever take it even if I offered it to them.

I suppose Paladin is the other one. Again, if I was a player no one wanted to me to pick them for various reasons. Had a DM tell me Paladins weren't allowed in his campaign because in the past they lead to Alignment Clash stupidity, you know, due to the bits that make Paladins have to be "Mommy" for the party or they lose their powers. So between that and groups asking I play something else, I just never really got to play it as much as I would have liked.

[Carth]

Magelord, fist of the forest, geometer (2 levels only), spymaster, invisible blade, monks (only for 2-6 levels, always with ACFs), and soulknives (only in gestalt).

[Forrestfire]

I've always wanted to play a truenamer, mainly because it has what is possibly the single coolest capstone in the game.

I'm probably going to try to force one to be viable the next time I manage to join a campaign, though. Maybe I can negotiate with the DM to lower the level of Say my name and I am there so that I can have it before the campaign ends...

[Phelix-Mu]

I first read that as "Sapphire Hierophant" and was about to point out that it's not too bad.

Actually, while I'm not a huge fan of incarnum rules (needs major refluffing for my setting, not to mention ANOTHER MAGIC-ISH SYSTEM? WHAT ABOUT THE BASE RULESET NOT WORKING? AGGGGHHHHH), what I remember of Sapphire Hierophant PrC was pretty cool flavor wise and in implementation. Some nice pictures in that book. Not a huge fan of wholesale transplant of organizations into my settings, but some of them aren't bad, I just prefer it when the fluff isn't organization-keyed, since that establishes a pretty high role play req relative to other PrC, where someone can just say "this kind of thing interests me, I'm training towards it," and bam, level 1 in PrC.

Shadowcaster is thirded, or w/e the count is by now. Lack of support in other sources (especially considering how many pages of Dragon Magazine was printed) is suicide in keeping up with the constant ramping up of the spellcasting power curve. Not to mention troublesome adaptation of existing PrC to a shadowcaster build.

[Gigas Breaker]

Drunken master thanks to Jackie Chan and Simon Yuen. Drunken Master 1 and 2 are just fantastic movies.

[Greenish]

I just prefer it when the fluff isn't organization-keyedLikewise, with the possible exception for some setting-specific stuff.

[ArcturusV]

Heh. I actually like when PrCs are organization based/roleplay result based. Mostly because it seems to have been the original intention behind them. And it stops some of the kind of silly builds where a guy has 1 level in the 8 most broken PrCs he can find.

[Greenish]

Heh. I actually like when PrCs are organization based/roleplay result based. Mostly because it seems to have been the original intention behind them.It seems to mostly have been an excuse for the developers to fart up a million hastily scraped together one-size-doesn't-fit-anyone organizations that slot into most settings and campaigns as smoothly as the proverbial square peg into the equally proverbial round hole. :smallfurious:

[Carth]

It seems to mostly have been an excuse for the developers to fart up a million hastily scraped together one-size-doesn't-fit-anyone organizations that slot into most settings and campaigns as smoothly as the proverbial square peg into the equally proverbial round hole. :smallfurious:

Agreed 100%. I'm basically always willing to ignore such requirements.

[Psyren]

I actually like it when there's an organization connected to a PrC, but I like it to be generic. Mage of the Arcane Order, for instance, can be slotted into nearly any wizard guild or magic college, but it makes sense that a bunch of wizards with abilities like this would band together. Ditto the Paragnostic Assembly and the Sapphire Eidolon. Similarly, Constructor/Ectopic Adept make sense as a cadre of psionic artisans. Even better are BIG groups that could host a number of PrCs as branches of study - e.g. Geometers could be just one avenue of learning in a large wizard college, and Cerebremancy another.

Of course, I like the loners too. Meditant and Elocater I could easily see being discovered almost by accident, and the handful of folks who mastered this unique style could then take on an apprentice or two as the fancy strikes them rather than ratifying their teachings. Sublime Chord could go either way, being a formalized branch of study that combines music and magic, or a handful of individuals who discovered the true potential of bardic magic. Planar Shepherd is very suited to loners and wanderers too.

Setting specific ones can be very nice. Eberron has some cool ones, like Sovereign Speaker, Dark Lantern, Escalation Mage and Silver Pyromancer.

[ArcturusV]

Well, I said Organization Based/Roleplay Based.

I don't have a problem with "loners" so much. Though it should be based on something other than "I want to level up to ____." Found some ancient tomes describing lost techniques you want to learn? Opens up a new PrC. Inspired training regime which grants you a new insight into combat? Open it up. Find a lone crazy old hermit who's the forgotten master of arcane arts? Learn from him and open up a PrC.

I don't necessarily make people all sign up as a card carrying member of a Guild or the like for a PrC. But to me it just feels... like something is kinda "off" if a Prestige Class is entered into as easily as one might say "I take another level of Fighter". I mean once you're in, you're in. But getting in to start with. Particularly for classes that are "Strictly Better" as some PrCs are.

I dunno. Chalk it up to comfort and personal taste?

[navar100]

Essentia is tight at low levels, yeah - so are a wizard's spells. But at higher levels? Assuming maximal investment (Incarnate 20 with Expanded Soulmeld Capacity), you can be running around with at least 4 soulmelds maxed out at all times. All of which you can reinvest with a swift action.

Azurin Incarnate 20 (with Bonus Essentia feat) has 29 points of essentia.

Being wonderful at 20th level doesn't help when you're far less than wonderful before you reach it. Truenamer can relate.

Also, note the need to spend a feat to have what you consider a decent amount.

[Pyromancer999]

For people saying the Hexblade and Shadowcaster is a dud, I do know there is unofficial errata from the respective creators of those classes which makes them a lot more viable as characters. Don't remember where it is, but it's out there.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Being wonderful at 20th level doesn't help when you're far less than wonderful before you reach it. Truenamer can relate.

Also, note the need to spend a feat to have what you consider a decent amount.

Wizards can relate as well. And it's not the feat that gives you a 'decent amount' - Bonus Essentia gives you 2 points.

And Incarnates can fill all sorts of roles at low levels, just not all at the same time like they can at higher levels.

Totemists... they just get plain crazy, and they have even less essentia than Incarnates.

[Urpriest]

Well, the one I always wanted to try out was the Eunich Warlock Prestige Class. Even though it's a pretty damned weak 10 level Prestige Class since it doesn't give proper spellcasting progression. I liked the fluff for it though and the idea of the class. Sadly I never was allowed to take it, and no one in a campaign I DMed would ever take it even if I offered it to them.


The 3.5 update from Dragon Magazine gives them normal spellcasting (8/10 I think), which helps them out a lot. I had a thread on them awhile back, someone suggested the new version combines well with Shadowcraft Mage.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Eye of Gruumsh. It has such terrible powers, and forces you to use a terrible weapon, but I love it because it gives me an excuse to sing, "orks orks orks orks, orks orks orks orks," during a game.

Acolyte of the Skin. Where the skin of a demon to gain it's powers. I... wut...

Dragolyte: First cleric I built was going to try prestiging into this. The DM was flakey and we didn't get past 3 sessions.

[terminusdrop321]

Elemental Warrior.

I love the Flavor but the abilities seem a little meh.

[Arbane]

Pathfinder's Rage Prophet PrC. Combining the spontaneous divine-casting cursed fun of the Oracle with the HULK SMASH of the Barbarian sounds like a great combo, but the class avoids being 'overpowered' so much that it's significantly weaker than a straight Barbarian OR a straight Oracle.

[The Viscount]

Well, the one I always wanted to try out was the Eunich Warlock Prestige Class. Even though it's a pretty damned weak 10 level Prestige Class since it doesn't give proper spellcasting progression.

The trick for using Eunuch Warlock I've seen is to enter after taking a class with casting that cannot advance, such as casting from a PrC that gives it. For example, urpriest casting is only 10 levels long, but if they enter Eunuch Warlock, they get more spells per day, which is good, because they have so few for higher level spells.


Drunken master thanks to Jackie Chan and Simon Yuen. Drunken Master 1 and 2 are just fantastic movies.

Great movies. 3.0 Drunken Master isn't as bad as 3.5 Drunken Master. I think the old one is in Sword and Fist


Eye of Gruumsh. It has such terrible powers, and forces you to use a terrible weapon, but I love it because it gives me an excuse to sing, "orks orks orks orks, orks orks orks orks," during a game.

It gets even more fun when you realize that the "swing blindly" ability is pretty much "More Dakka!" in medieval form.

[Averis Vol]

Monk, fighter, paladin for base. each one resonates with me somehow; for monks it is probably because I grew up on the three ninjas and did martial arts from age 7 to 18, Paladin fits perfectly with my arrogant self righteousness and want to help people, and fighter because they were always portrayed as the heroes (along with paladins I guess, knight in shining armor and all that) and the wizards were the sniveling villains who were defeated by the warriors grit and resilience.

dnd uh....... dnd kinda ruined those dreams, but I learned to cope.

as for PrC's.....Bladesinger, justicar, knight protector and war chanter; the last being slightly better then the rest.

[Tytalus]

Green Star Adept (I like transformational PrCs) is a neat idea but nearly impossible to make work.

I also wish that Hexblade had a solid execution.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

For me it would be the Ragemage. I just love the concept, but each time you build one you have to conclude it is just unimpressive. Which is a shame, because the concept is so impressive!

[Pandoras Folly]

Eye of Gruumsh. It has such terrible powers, and forces you to use a terrible weapon, but I love it because it gives me an excuse to sing, "orks orks orks orks, orks orks orks orks," during a game.


What ork needs an excuse to bellow that? its perfect for all occasions: battle, the bar, traveling, bar mitzvahs, funerals, holy services, etc. its like hallelujah, amen, OI!, and suck my **** all in one.

[Psyren]

For me it would be the Ragemage. I just love the concept, but each time you build one you have to conclude it is just unimpressive. Which is a shame, because the concept is so impressive!

Hyperconscious has the Cerebral Rager, a Wilder/Barbarian theurge that pulls the concept off much better imo. And of course, psionics means you can wear armor without ASF etc.

[Newoblivion]

For me it's the Alienist. I am a huge Lovecraft fan and I really love this PRC. I am also in love with the Shadowcaster, I wish the class was better :smallfrown:

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Hyperconscious has the Cerebral Rager, a Wilder/Barbarian theurge that pulls the concept off much better imo. And of course, psionics means you can wear armor without ASF etc.

Right, I know. It just doesn't work as well for me. The combo of psionics and raging does not sit well with me. It has to be a sorcerer, with necromancy spells and spells that go BOOM!. :)

[Psyren]

I am also in love with the Shadowcaster, I wish the class was better :smallfrown:

Same here - it's a nice way to get psionics-like casting into a non-psionics game (i.e. mysterious caster that doesn't need to speak - or even gesture, with Still Mystery.) Ari's fixes help a lot with making it better.


Right, I know. It just doesn't work as well for me. The combo of psionics and raging does not sit well with me. It has to be a sorcerer, with necromancy spells and spells that go BOOM!. :)

Thought-based psionics and raging don't mix, I agree. But Wilders aren't about thought though - they're about unbridled emotion. To me, the combo couldn't fit better :smallsmile:

[Newoblivion]

Ari's fixes help a lot with making it better.


Can you link please!!!??? :smallredface:

[The Trickster]

My first D&D character was a 2ED paladin. I remember feeling awesome because you needed minimum stats to even qualify, and I got lucky and rolled well enough to play one. Then came 3.5 :(

But actually, my first character in 3.5 was a monk...needless to say I was not happy with the character design.

As for P.classes, I always liked the Void Disciple, but could never get it to work as well. Perhaps I was just doing it wrong. :P

[Psyren]

Can you link please!!!??? :smallredface:

Here is the source (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?184955-Shadowcaster-fixes-by-Mouseferatu), and it's also quoted in both of the Shadowcaster handbooks floating around.

To summarize the big ones:

- Bonus mysteries based on Cha (the biggest help by far)
- DC and Bonus mysteries on the same stat now (Cha), so that will be your primary.
- Max mystery level based on Int, so you will want 19 there by the time you get to high levels.
- No longer have to complete a Path once you start it - you can jump around.

You can read the rest in the link.

[Green Leviathan]

+1 on Green Star Adept. It takes money to level up each level by eating an obscure metal. 1/2 spell progression (/w built in practiced spell caster) 3/4 bab, and some abilities that mimic being a warforged except at the capstone you lose all your con for a flat +HP.

all that said, one of my favorite PC's was one. Sure he wasn't as powerfull as he could have been, but it's all in how you play.

[hewhosaysfish]

Dragon Disciple. I wanna turn myself into a dragon! RAWR!

My first character went into DD from being a single-classed sorceror: six levels of sorc, 3 of DD; I was 2 spell levels behind the the Clerics and Wizards and what I got in return was a once-per-day breath weapon and a bite attack. RAWR!

[navar100]

I don't think a Green Star Adept is supposed to be considered a "spellcaster". Rather, it's an iteration of a gish. Other gish builds can easily be better, but playing a gish often times intends accepting you're not getting 9th level spells before Epic despite the ability to do so with some gish builds. Not getting 9th level spells before Epic is not a catastrophe; it's merely one's personal taste. Therefore, Green Star Adept is not good for some people while it can be good for others.

Likewise, Incarnum is not good for me even if it's good for you. If it bothers you Incarnum is not good for me, so sorry, so sad.

[Pechvarry]

Planar Champion (manual of the planes).

Hexblade.

[Person_Man]

Every class and prestige class with one cool signature ability, and a bunch of garbage filler abilities (minor bonuses, limited Feats, rarely used immunities, etc) interspersed by dead or dead-ish levels. This includes pretty much everything in Tier 4, and every prestige class which doesn't provide spell, power, meldshaping, vestige, psionics, or maneuver progression.

Hexblade, Ninja, and Knight are good examples, although I have elaborate homerbew fixes for each of them.

[Ardantis]

I love (and hate) Bards. They are clearly very good, but early in 3.0 they were not perceived as such.

I played them anyways, ignored the fact that their singing was sub-par and that their skills were mismatched and their combat capabilities were a joke.

Now they're AWESOME- and I have no interest in playing one.

[elvengunner69]

I keep trying to make Paladin work...finally just went Lawful Good Cleric with a War god...way better than any Paladin ever.

[Twilightwyrm]

Dragon Disciple. I wanna turn myself into a dragon! RAWR!

My first character went into DD from being a single-classed sorceror: six levels of sorc, 3 of DD; I was 2 spell levels behind the the Clerics and Wizards and what I got in return was a once-per-day breath weapon and a bite attack. RAWR!

I second this. The idea of the Dragon Disciple was always rather appealing to me. Thank god for the Dragon Devotee in this regard. Sure, you won't end up as powerful as a full sorcerer, but if you are a melee class you can now turn into a half-dragon without much being lost...yay?

The Tempest has long been a class I've liked, as I've always been a fan of TWF. But the prereqs just kill it. So many feats for such a small benefit...

And finally, the Ghost-Faced Killer. I wouldn't say this class is particularly terrible; the prereq feats are nice, the skill requirments aren't too high, and the flavor text of a dark specter suddenly appearing behind someone to cut them down in a single terrifying strike then casually walking away as attacks simply pass through them is pretty awesome. But mechanically...very little you get there can't be replicated by the ninja, or replicated better by the Assassin PrC (To say nothing of a Ninja/Assassin). That, and it requires that you be evil, which I've never really been a fan of. So for this reason, it tends to get passed over and generally neglected, despite the awesome imagery it evokes.

[navar100]

Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil

People talk up about it, but I cannot get past the prerequisite. Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus for Abjuration is a complete waste of two feats. They're the prerequisite I suppose because Prismatic Sphere is an abjuration spell with a saving throw that fits what the prestige class is all about, but otherwise you never use the feats. There are Dismissal and Banishment, but those spells are niche and not in flavor of the prestige class. Even accepting them you have to hunt the Spell Compendium or any splat book to find abjuration spells that are worth casting that have a saving throw. That I have to hunt for them is part of the problem.

[Novawurmson]

For me it's the Alienist. I am a huge Lovecraft fan and I really love this PRC.

Came here to say this.

Spellthief is another big one for me: I can't remember a single spellcaster I've fought in any campaign I've played in.

[JackRackham]

I'll stick to the basics: Rogue.

I could have tolerated the d6 HD, 3/4 BAB, the fact that wizards and sorcerers can duplicate just about any skill, better, for a 1st/2nd level spell, that the class itself offers very few ways of setting up sneak attack, and that one cannot sneak attack in the dark. But why did they have to give everything under the sun Uncanny Dodge or some other means of avoiding/negating my hard-earned sneak attacks?

(I personally don't care, but friends would certainly place fighter, monk, and ninja on this list of disappointments as well)

[Psyren]

I keep trying to make Paladin work...finally just went Lawful Good Cleric with a War god...way better than any Paladin ever.

Go with Super-Paladin - Favored Soul/Dragonslayer/Sacred Exorcist/Fist of Raziel ftw.


I don't think a Green Star Adept is supposed to be considered a "spellcaster". Rather, it's an iteration of a gish. Other gish builds can easily be better, but playing a gish often times intends accepting you're not getting 9th level spells before Epic despite the ability to do so with some gish builds. Not getting 9th level spells before Epic is not a catastrophe; it's merely one's personal taste. Therefore, Green Star Adept is not good for some people while it can be good for others.

The CL loss is only one problem with GSA though - losing your Con score also really hurts a gish. If I were to update the class, I would have it make you a living construct instead. Come to think of it, Renegade Mastermaker may as well be the updated version of GSA if you're not opposed to some refluffing.

[Sr.medusa]

Hierpohan... just... crap

How supose you're a master priest of any church if you're god hates you? Why doesn't have spell progresion, god? Why?

[Psyren]

Hierpohan... just... crap

How supose you're a master priest of any church if you're god hates you? Why doesn't have spell progresion, god? Why?

Ur-Priest and Blighter love it at least

[Sr.medusa]

Yeah, right... the only way to make be the head of a major religion is stole the power of you're god...

I can see because the pope give up...

[Menteith]

I'll also toss in my support for the Magelord (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050202a&page=2). I just want to run an Illusion Mastery focused specialist who gets into it without losing caster levels....those entry requirements....

My other big one is the Duelist. I keep meaning to build a Kung-Fu Genius Monk with Versatile Unarmed Strike who uses it, but the only way I can get the build working in a reasonable time frame is to gestalt it.

[RFLS]

Yeah, right... the only way to make be the head of a major religion is stole the power of you're god...

I can see because the pope give up...

....what? white text because my post is too short

[Sr.medusa]

Sorry, is late here, and my english is bad...

I mean that Hierophan is really bad if the only way to make it viable is stole you're god's powers (i.e. being an Urpriest).

[gr8artist]

Oh, there are several.
Dervishes of all kinds come to mind. PF has variants for fighters and bards, and complete warrior had a dervish dancer that I loved. The mobility and lethality of the class are highly entertaining.
Pyromancer. Had its own book and everything. Added in some of my own flavor, making him a servant of a CG deity. Gave him purify (or sanctify) spell so that my good allies took no damage from my spells. Enter room, throw fireball. Harrass anything that burned for being "not holy enough"... repeat.
Warshaper.

[DarkEternal]

Bonded Summoner for me.

A few months ago I wanted to make a summoner type character, and this class really caught my eye in terms of what I wanted. Being able to summon a protector, a singular bigarse creature that would serve as something that will take my hits, defend me until I die and be awesome. The idea was that he would grow in power and I would get abilities that would strengthen it.

And what do I get? An elemental that grows so amusingly slow that by the time he gets to his "ultimate" level which is an elder elemental I think, any other summoner can already summon like five of those per round, not to matter that other classes can stop time itself and rip the planet in twain. I wouldn't mind it if it was average, but really. IT is awful. It would sort of kind of even be tolerable if like every second level wasn't a dead level in terms of caster level progression.

It is just plain bad. Awesome on paper, but God, does it suck.

[LTwerewolf]

Dwarven defender, hexblade, OA samurai and fighter.

I know a lot of people say fighter is bland, but that's what I like about it. You don't get people that get hung up on the fluff and tell you what it is and isn't; you get to decide every bit of it.

[Arbane]

Bonded Summoner for me.

A few months ago I wanted to make a summoner type character, and this class really caught my eye in terms of what I wanted. Being able to summon a protector, a singular bigarse creature that would serve as something that will take my hits, defend me until I die and be awesome. The idea was that he would grow in power and I would get abilities that would strengthen it.


Take a look at Pathfinder's Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner). It sounds like that without the suckage.

[kardar233]

And finally, the Ghost-Faced Killer. I wouldn't say this class is particularly terrible; the prereq feats are nice, the skill requirments aren't too high, and the flavor text of a dark specter suddenly appearing behind someone to cut them down in a single terrifying strike then casually walking away as attacks simply pass through them is pretty awesome. But mechanically...very little you get there can't be replicated by the ninja, or replicated better by the Assassin PrC (To say nothing of a Ninja/Assassin). That, and it requires that you be evil, which I've never really been a fan of. So for this reason, it tends to get passed over and generally neglected, despite the awesome imagery it evokes.

Hey! Don't be too quick to dismiss Frightful Attack. Done right, that's a 30ft AoE of Don't Bother Rolling Just Be Scared, as the AoE save DC can scale ridiculously fast.

[ArcturusV]

I'm with ya LTwerewolf. Sometimes it's fun to have flex. One of the things I never liked the Rangers is that you're pegged into "Archer with minor magic" or "Light armored dervish with minor magic". but fighter? I can be anything from a barroom brawler thug, to a dashing knight... a Poet Swordsinger or a Contemplative Martial Artist. And it all fits on the same class chassis.

[sonofzeal]

As for P.classes, I always liked the Void Disciple, but could never get it to work as well. Perhaps I was just doing it wrong. :P
Void Disciple..... *shudders*

Okay, so, here's a writeup I made about it ages ago:


3) Void Suppression. No-save-just-lose for 95% of the monsters out there. Requires a melee touch attack. Spectral Hand is (arguably, depending on your reading) your friend.

2) Moment of Clarity. Grant an ally any feat for a few rounds. Worth noting is that you specifically can't grant Ancestor feats, but Epic feats are, apparently, good to go.

1) Sense Void. Okay, so you can sense stuff anywhere except across planar boundaries, at the cost of a piddly Spellcraft check. This raises a whole series of questions: can others sense you when you're like that? Since you're leaving your body, can you use purely mental actions in that state? Can you move around? How long does it last? Does it count as a divination effect? What can block it? RAW's lack of statement implies very dire answers...

- There's no listed method of detecting if someone else is using this.
- There's nothing preventing the use of mental actions in this state, and there's not even a mention of it requiring concentration.
- There's no method of moving (but see the previous)
- There's no limit on duration given.
- It's never referred to as a divination, nor as scrying, despite the obvious similarities.
- Given that, there's no RAW method I've heard of to block it, short of planar boundaries. Illusions work, though.

In other words, it's potentially "Scry and Die" on steroids.


Conclusion: Void Disciple loses enough spell levels that it could be underpowered, depending on how Sense Void is ruled to work. RAW is vague enough that most of the overpowered potential is based purely on the lack of defined limits. I've personally seen this thing break campaigns though, and I wouldn't recommend it for general PC use. Game-breaking Up Two to a barely passable Down One, depending on how Sense Void is used.

[Lortharian Duin]

Arcane Trickster.
Awesome fluff, awesome tricks, more spells, what's not to like? Oh, yeah...
Poor BAB and its skill prerequisites, nothing else was actually big of a problem for me.
Why Escape Artist and Decipher Script skill requirement, rank 7 both!?
I never used those two skills later in game 'cos hey, I have wizard spells. Was forced to take Able Learner so I could fill those skills I don't actually need and won't be using.
...
Why not Sleight of Hand and Open Lock? Those two Arcane Trickster actually uses with Ranged Legerdemain. It would've been logical, wouldn't it?

I ended up with Unseen Seer who took 2 levels of Arcane Trickster very late in campaign.

[Bit Fiend]

Ardent Dilettante

The prequesites are weird as hell (though that's another reason I love it), the class is not too great, but man do I love the fluff.

Also Acolyte of the Skin... It's damn near useless but brings a ton of style to a (very) low op campaign.

[LTwerewolf]

I'm with ya LTwerewolf. Sometimes it's fun to have flex. One of the things I never liked the Rangers is that you're pegged into "Archer with minor magic" or "Light armored dervish with minor magic". but fighter? I can be anything from a barroom brawler thug, to a dashing knight... a Poet Swordsinger or a Contemplative Martial Artist. And it all fits on the same class chassis.

It's not just build, but fluff as well. Sometimes people get so hung up on the specific fluff of something they can't get past it. All paladins must have a stick up their ass, all druids must always get a hardon for nature. Things like that. Some classes have terrible fluff but decent mechanics (warblade for example), but can be less than fun to play if you have a group that won't ignore the little blurb in the description. Another example is playing a crusader and calling yourself a samurai or a paladin. Some people treat it as blasphemy.

[Telonius]

Arcane Archer. I so badly wanted it to work out, but she wasn't capable of the relationship I wanted. Left her years ago, but never really got her out of my head.

Warlock is my current flame. She's really understanding about my old crush. Sometimes she even tries to dress up like Archer, but it's still not quite the same.

[ArcturusV]

Oh... I know how that is LTwerewolf.

"I'm a Knight."

*later the party sees me picking locks and skulking about*

"Wait... I thought you were a knight...?"

"I am."

*next fight I backstab someone for decent damage*

"... wait... you're not a knight, you're a thief!"

"Nah. I'm a knight who just happens to be a single class Rogue. Knight is my title in the land, not my class."

[Malimar]

Fleshwarper. Could make grafts almost worth the investment, but more importantly, such delightfully squamous fluff! I particularly want to play a warforged fleshwarper, gradually replace robot bits with horrible gooey monster bits.

But, barring shenanigans, it can't be entered until level 10. :smallfrown: I've never even gotten a character to level 10! Much less to levels high enough to start getting anything out of Fleshwarper.