OOTS #869 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Yeah, I don't think Belkar's coming out of this alive. Of course, right when he started to get it. I do like how there really isn't much animosity between Belkar and Malack though.

[Howler Dagger]

I think I can say for certain belkar dies soon.

[ArlEammon]

Heh. It would be sad if this is where Belkar is cross eyed. :(

[Peelee]

I really like how Malack just keeps getting better. Wonderfully blasé!

[homersolo]

Of course B will survive this. Didn't you just hear/read him say that whenever someone says something like that they win in a weird way? Him winning now is like a one in a million chance --- It's guaranteed!

[Bastian Weaver]

Belkar, you're such an idiot... a lovable, nasty, homicidal idiot, but an idiot nonetheless.

[Ruduen]

Run, Mr. Scruffy, run! Go get the rest of the party!

After all, Mr. Scruffy probably has more sense than Belkar.

[Drakeburn]

Heh. It would be sad if this is where Belkar is cross eyed. :(

Well, that might be the case, but Belkar might come back. Let us not forget that Roy died as well, and got resurrected. Maybe the same will happen with our halfling ranger here.

But I don't think Malack has any interest in killing Belkar.

[Peelee]

Of course B will survive this. Didn't you just hear/read him say that whenever someone says something like that they win in a weird way? Him winning now is like a one in a million chance --- It's guaranteed!

The title of the comic does not support your hypothesis. Of course, Belkar could definitely walk away from this (Malack, at least for the moment, doesn't seem terribly interested in killing Belkar, per se), but just because he said that doesn't mean he'll win.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I'll say it. That was horrible anticlimatic and it was awesome. We see a more philosophical side of Malack, which is good.

[Mr.Rictus]

Well, that might be the case, but Belkar might come back.

The oracle's prophecy was quite specific: Belkar will draw his last breath, EVER, by the end of the year. So technically he could be turned undead, however when he dies, he won't be resurrected for some reason.

Also, sorry Belkar, there was no way you were going to win against Malack, he literally has years of experience, does NOT have the wisdom of a lemming, quite the opposite, and is probably the same level as Tarquin who has already whupped you when you had allies.

His only shot at this point is V, Mr Scruffy or Malack being on a good mood and finding a use for him which does not involve killing him.

But he's going to die soon even if he is rescued in that instance^^

[RndmNumGen]

Ah, Hold Person. Good ol' Save-Or-Lose. :smallamused:

I wonder what will happen next...:smalleek:

[Scow2]

Malack has no reason to leave Belkar alive either.

[Fable Wright]

Sincerely hoping Belkar doesn't die a death this undignified...

[Clistenes]

That was quick...:smalleek: I guess Malak won initiative.

My bet now is in "V saves Belkar".

Or Malak raising him as an undead.

[Lycan 01]

That was deliciously anticlimactic. Can't wait to see where this goes next! :smallbiggrin:

[Peelee]

Malack has no reason to leave Belkar alive either.

Quite true. His line, however, that his god teaches him "to kill that which he would see dead" seems quite utilitarian. If he has no need to kill Belkar, and no need to spare him, sparing him is far simpler.

Man, I am really loving how Malack is not broadcasting his intentions all over the place.

[Mutant Sheep]

Ah, hold person. Who doesn't love magic?:smallbiggrin:

Now, for the random ideas... Will Malack kill Belkar? Is Nale going to back stab Tarquin? DID BELKAR BRING MALACK TO -3 BY FALLING ON HIM?:smalleek::smallamused:

(One of those is a joke.)

[Alignment]

"[Lord Nergal] teaches me to kill that which I would see dead. Not to send proxies in my stead."

I guess I won't be worshiping Nergal, then. Murder by proxy is more fun.

[Welf]

oh? "Typical"? So Nergal is the comic relief of his party? I want to see the rest in action now :smalleek:

[Yendor]

Well, that was quick. Nice going, Malack.

[mneme]

A lot depends on what he considers a "proxy" here.

For instance, it's possible that a halfling who has no ties to him counts as a proxy -- but a halfling with a Geas to kill his worst enemy does not.

I don't think this is how Belkar is going to bite it -- not unless he rises as a self-willed but controlled undead, anyway.

[StreamOfTheSky]

This strip willfully ignores class balance so much, it's almost jarring when Rich plays it straight.

[Shadebolt]

To keep the prophecy going, Malack might reanimate Belkar as an undead with free will, but still is loyal to the Order (sort of). Bonus points if Mr. scruffy is why he reassertion his free will! :smallbiggrin:

Also, when I read panel seven, I actually thought Belkar had turned good, until panel 8. :smallbiggrin:

[Trixie]

I guess Malak won initiative.

Plus somehow interrupted start of attack action from someone next to him despite Hold Person being standard, not immediate/free action - and despite casting spells giving AoO :smallwink:

Hmm, wonder what happens next. On a side thought, is it Deus Ex Machina if Cleric does it? :P

[Barsoom]

Quite true. His line, however, that his god teaches him "to kill that which he would see dead" seems quite utilitarian. If he has no need to kill Belkar, and no need to spare him, sparing him is far simpler.
.Since Hold Person only has a duration of 1 round/level, it could be expected that within about 90 seconds Malak will have a very angry halfling on his tail. Again. Therefore, no, sparing him is not simpler. The utilitarian choice is to kill him once and for all.

[Peelee]

To keep the prophecy going, Malack might reanimate Belkar as an undead with free will, but still is loyal to the Order (sort of). Bonus points if Mr. scruffy is why he reassertion his free will! :smallbiggrin:

Also, when I read panel seven, I actually thought Belkar had turned good, until panel 8. :smallbiggrin:

How would that keep the prophecy going? Or, rather, how would Belkar actually dying not keep the prophecy going?

[Math_Mage]

Left to their own devices, Malack will likely kill Belkar and continue on, unless Nergal disapproves of random slaughter of halflings or something.

But I don't see them being left alone for long.

[The Giant]

Plus somehow interrupted start of attack action from someone next to him despite Hold Person being standard, not immediate/free action - and despite casting spells giving AoO :smallwink:

Hmm, wonder what happens next. On a side thought, is it Deus Ex Machina if Cleric does it? :P

Initiative win plus readied action plus casting defensively. It's not even that hard to figure out.

And seriously, it's incredibly insulting to call everything you didn't expect a Deus Ex Machina.

[Gift Jeraff]

Come on, V, swoop in at the nick of time and save your "acquaintance." Belkar's holding out for a hero.

[Peelee]

Since Hold Person only has a duration of 1 round/level, it could be expected that within about 90 seconds Malak will have a very angry halfling on his tail. Again. Therefore, no, sparing him is not simpler. The utilitarian choice is to kill him once and for all.

Quoth the Giant,

If you are looking for moment-to-moment rules accuracy from this comic, you probably should stop reading. You are guaranteed to be continually frustrated and disappointed, because I don't care about that at all.
If he does still keep the original duration, I'll totally agree with you. If not, then Malack can just walk away in the maze.

EDIT: I should probably amend this to say I only wish to use this argument for spell duration time limits. 'Cause this is a D&D-based comic, and all the characters operate in a D&D-based world, so that argument could be (ab)used for anything in the comic, really.

[Mike Havran]

I laughed.

So hard. :smallbiggrin:

Poor Mal, nassty hobbitsses hitting him to the nose all the time :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[McStabbington]

You can do it Scruffy! I believe in you!

[ReaderAt2046]

Plus somehow interrupted start of attack action from someone next to him despite Hold Person being standard, not immediate/free action - and despite casting spells giving AoO :smallwink:

Hmm, wonder what happens next. On a side thought, is it Deus Ex Machina if Cleric does it? :P

Probably a readied action, and a succesful Cast Defensively Concentration check. Neither is particularly hard for a cleric of that level.

On an unrelated note, do you have the feeling that Rich wrote this the way he did just to frustrate all our guesses? Also, I'm guessing that the next scene might be Mr. Scruffy driving Malack back from Belkar. Note that Malack has already taken falling damage from a halfling dropping on him, and has a low Con and no armor, while Mr. Scruffy gets three attacks per round, and as a ranger animal companion gets 9 times as many HD as a regular cat, plus big bonuses to Str, Dex, and AC, as well as Evasion and a +4 to will saves against spells. He'd also probably get a surprise round.

Finally, I'd just like to say that it's wonderful to have the Giant all the way back again. The new comics are coming out so fast!

[Snails]

Since Hold Person only has a duration of 1 round/level, it could be expected that within about 90 seconds Malak will have a very angry halfling on his tail. Again. Therefore, no, sparing him is not simpler. The utilitarian choice is to kill him once and for all.

Well, yes, it seems more practical to just kill Belkar.

But there are many many options that cost modest resources and have some value:
(1) Cast Wall of Stone and box Belkar in. With those wee magic daggers, it could take hours for Belkar to free himself.
(2) Cast Mark of Justice to keep Belkar away from Malack himself
(3) Geas
(4) Turn Belkar into some kind of controlled undead

[Snails]

A Helpless opponent could be knocked unconscious with a Coup De Gras action while inflicting Fatigue damage with a weapon. Belkar gets a Fort save, but in this case Malack can just keep trying 10+ times.

Malack can stroll away from this fight if he wants.

[Vectner]

Could this be the end of Belkar . . . Dun dun dun dun. Tune in next week and find out.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Live Fast, Die Young, Leave a Good Looking Corpse. :smallamused:

Don't really see what Mr. Scruffy can do to help. Mr. S isn't trying to take on a Commoner, Malak is a bit more dangerous.

V vs. M for Belkar's Life? Step One of Redemption? With Miko's ghost providing pointers and tips?

[Zubzub]

Is Malack a yuan-ti? The way hes drawn moving makes it look like he doesnt have legs somewhere in that robe.

[Mike Havran]

Is Malack a yuan-ti? The way hes drawn moving makes it look like he doesnt have legs somewhere in that robe.

Belkar thought his movement was similar to Vaarsuvius's in the previous strip... that strongly implies Malack has legs.

[Zubzub]

I dont think so, Belkar thought he heard the sound of something moving in robes, not footsteps.

[Cracklord]

Ah, that's what we tune in to see.

[SaintRidley]

Belkar thought his movement was similar to Vaarsuvius's in the previous strip... that strongly implies Malack has legs.

Vaarsuvius tends to do a lot of flying, leaving only the sound of swishing robes, which sounds exactly like what Belkar was hearing.

And the Giant beat everyone to the readied action + defensive casting.

[Giggling Ghast]

Initiative win plus readied action plus casting defensively. It's not even that hard to figure out.

And seriously, it's incredibly insulting to call everything you didn't expect a Deus Ex Machina.

Rich, don't you know? "Deus Ex Machina" is Internet-speak for "plot development I don't like."

Thanks for the great comics as always.

[MeanMrsMustard]

I'm pleasantly surprised to see how quickly these are coming out. :smallsmile:
Also, way to tease us! I can't wait for Belkar to finally die. Of course, now that I've said that, it's practically guaranteed that the Giant will kill him off in a way that makes me wish I hadn't. Just like with Miko and Tsukiko.

[Mike Havran]

I dont think so, Belkar thought he heard the sound of something moving in robes, not footsteps.

That is possible. But I think there is a significant difference between a sound of a human-sized snake sliding through a corridor and a human-sized elf walking the same way, even though both are in heavy robes.

Edit: V flying is possible, but I guess "somebody I know well is coming my way" is not the most appropriate thought when one hears heavy robes swishing around the corner :smallbiggrin:

[The Succubus]

So, I'm really not rating our furry footed friends prospects very highly here. Not if "breathing" features prominently.

[Xelbiuj]

This . . . does not shock me. Basically exactly how it would go down.
There's something oddly unsettling about that lol.

Anyways, V to the rescue?

plz :smalleek:

[MeanMrsMustard]

"Deus Ex Machina" is Internet-speak for "plot development I don't like."
And here I am thinking it was a cleric joke.

[t209]

Belkar's a blood thirsty halfling ranger, dude.

[WindStruck]

Maybe next strip will be Belkar sitting there on the ground with all these thoughts running through his mind while Malack drones on about whether or not he should kill Belkar. Then, Belkar will think about Mr. Scruffy and truly have something worth fighting for, thus ensuring his victory and he makes his will save (probably has to roll a natural 20 for it).

...Then I bet Malack just casts destruction on him anyway and game over. :smallamused:

[Shred-Bot]

Advantage: Lizgreaper.

And between the lack of visible legs and his white tail, Malack totally looks like a (Casper-style) ghost. (Not saying he is one, just that the visual motif is there)

[Barsoom]

Quoth the Giant,

If he does still keep the original duration, I'll totally agree with you. If not, then Malack can just walk away in the maze.

EDIT: I should probably amend this to say I only wish to use this argument for spell duration time limits. 'Cause this is a D&D-based comic, and all the characters operate in a D&D-based world, so that argument could be (ab)used for anything in the comic, really.

No matter how hard or loose the Giant plays with the rules, I'm sure the gist is mostly maintained. In the case of a Hold Person spell, it's a paralyzing spell with a limited duration. That's really all we need to know. I may have been overly specific when I mentioned the duration of 1 round/level, but really, even if it's changed on a whim by a factor of 2 or a factor of 10, does it matter?

[Xelbiuj]

Maybe next strip will be Belkar sitting there on the ground with all these thoughts running through his mind while Malack drones on about whether or not he should kill Belkar. Then, Belkar will think about Mr. Scruffy and truly have something worth fighting for, thus ensuring his victory and he makes his will save (probably has to roll a natural 20 for it).

...Then I bet Malack just casts destruction on him anyway and game over. :smallamused:

How many (basically)save or die spells could Malack have at his level?

The deux ex machina joke wasn't about Rich's writing, it was about how ridiculous clerics are compared to other classes. God, some people have no sense of humor.

[Psyren]

Plus somehow interrupted start of attack action from someone next to him despite Hold Person being standard, not immediate/free action - and despite casting spells giving AoO :smallwink:


Nah, he simply won initiative and readied an action to HP Belkar on a charge. You can even see him pre-casting the spell.

Also, Belkar wasn't in range for an AoO.

EDIT: Ninja'd by the Big Guy

[Harr]

And seriously, it's incredibly insulting to call everything you didn't expect a Deus Ex Machina.

Pretty sure that was meant to be a joke, dude. See "Deux Ex Machina" refers to when Greek plays would be solved by the gods coming in at the end nd solving whatever problem was there.

What Trixie is saying is, if a cleric calls on his god to solve a problem, does that count as a Deus Ex Machina. Get it? Cause he's calling on a god. To solve a problem. Can't believe I'm actually explaining this btw.

[SteveDJ]

Now's here what I'd just love to see next...

Belkar wakes up (well, gets movement restored), finding himself bound to some slow, mechanical device which will gradually and eventually inflict death ... (you know, like classic TV Batman... or James Bond...) :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

Because otherwise, why else use Hold Person instead of something more instantly-death-causing ?? :smallbiggrin:

[Tragak]

And here I am thinking it was a cleric joke.
Yeah, me too.

[Psyren]

Pretty sure that was meant to be a joke, dude. See "Deux Ex Machina" refers to when Greek plays would be solved by the gods coming in at the end nd solving whatever problem was there.

What Trixie is saying is, if a cleric calls on his god to solve a problem, does that count as a Deus Ex Machina. Get it? Cause he's calling on a god. To solve a problem. Can't believe I'm actually explaining this btw.

The problem with the joke is that in D&D, the god's involvement in the process stops at spell preparation.

[Mutant Sheep]

Pretty sure that was meant to be a joke, dude. See "Deux Ex Machina" refers to when Greek plays would be solved by the gods coming in at the end nd solving whatever problem was there.

What Trixie is saying is, if a cleric calls on his god to solve a problem, does that count as a Deus Ex Machina. Get it? Cause he's calling on a god. To solve a problem. Can't believe I'm actually explaining this btw.

The Giant is plenty aware of what it means. And it means god from the machine. It does not mean "using divine magic". And seriously, you're being almost COMICALLY condescending to THE GIANT. He's been arguing against Deus Machina complaints since the forum was made. He gets what the phrase means both in actual translation and in Internet.

And I don't think it was a funny joke, since you actually DID need to explain it (for me). Because the term means Ending Save From Nowhere on the Internet, which is not what Malack did. Also, if you're going to ignore the Machina part for the Deus, you just get "god". Which is generally an expletive. A cleric using divine magic has nothing to do with machines, just the god (and even that isn't necessary), so a literal definition doesn't work. Malack using a low level spell doesn't fit the other definition, since we know he's high level. (See him almost destroying Nale) So he has access to low level spells. So maybe I'm just humorless, but I don't get it. The original joke was about initiative and Malack magically used magic on Belkar when Belkar was already attacking anyways. Blurhg.

[Mike Havran]

What Trixie is saying is, if a cleric calls on his god to solve a problem, does that count as a Deus Ex Machina. Get it?

Because I read Trixie's other posts about this particular encounter, I do not think you manifest his/her point of view.

[JennTora]

The oracle's prophecy was quite specific: Belkar will draw his last breath, EVER, before the end of the year.
Actually, he could die here, be resurrected, then die again later while still fulfilling the prophecy.

[Barsoom]

Actually, he could die here, be resurrected, then die again later while still fulfilling the prophecy.

Why stop at one resurrection then? He can be trapped in an endless loops of deaths and resurrections, ending only when someone presses CTRL-ALT-DEL. Yes, I know, this makes only slightly more sense then half of the other Belkar theories.

[Mantine]

I'll say it. That was horrible anticlimatic
You said it, son.

[Querzis]

On an unrelated note, do you have the feeling that Rich wrote this the way he did just to frustrate all our guesses?

If he did then he did a bad job of it since I guessed it on the Malak vs Belkar thread. Even got the right spell (I'm feeling so freaking smug right now, been so long since I predicted a comic this well).

[Canisius]

Great to see a new comic! Hope this means the Giant is on the mend.

I think it's interesting to look at the way Malack's face is drawn in this strip. No scowls (except when he thinks he's been mistaken for an elf). Just a wide-eyed conversation with himself. Folks with more D&D experience than me have argued over his alignment, but this strip seems to lean heavily toward him being neutral. He's making technocratic decisions, uninformed by passion. He perceives Belkar to be no threat, so why not just "hold person"? By the way, kudos to the folks who expected that would be the spell he'd use when Belkar confronted him.

My own guess is that Rich didn't have a firm plan for Belkar when he penned the "draw his last breath... EVER" strip. Or if he did, there'd be some catch. Hopefully this comic will come to a conclusion before I die, so I can find out what he was thinking. (no dig at Rich, I'm prolly not gonna be around much longer. Also, a webcomic I followed for years finally ended last year, and it was surprisingly sad).

Mostly, I don't want Mr. Scruffy orphaned. Though he's proved pretty resilient, having had at least one owner hacked in half.

So:
1. Malack sees no use in killing Belkar, at least for the next 90 seconds.
2. The Oracle's prophecy regarding Belkar has a catch which will leave us all groaning when Rich unveils it.
3. Definitely expect to see V show up soon, for good or ill.

btw - Malack's currently my favorite character. He has complex motivations and loyalties, and may wind up being the rogue (adjective) part of this whole equation.

[Barsoom]

If he did then he did a bad job of it since I guessed it on the Malak vs Belkar thread. Even got the right spell (I'm feeling so freaking smug right now, been so long since I predicted a comic this well).

To be honest, "full caster devastates melee character with one spell" is not exactly the most unpredictable of endings.

[Psyren]

To be honest, "full caster devastates melee character with one spell" is not exactly the most unpredictable of endings.

Particularly when both his classes have a crap will save

[Querzis]

To be honest, "full caster devastates melee character with one spell" is not exactly the most unpredictable of endings.

Oh I know, which is why I thought it was weird that so many people (especially Trixie which just called it a Deux Ex Machina now on top of it) argued with me about it. I actually even had to do the math to prove that even if Malack hadnt cast defensively and got aoe by Belkar, he'd have most likely succeeded that concentration check with a 1. And Belkar was unlikely to succeed that save with anything else then a 20 too. So yeah, thought it was obvious but was apparently the only one. Go look up all I won in the bets, I even got a Master Ball!

[Barsoom]

Oh I know, which is why I thought it was weird that so many people (especially Trixie which just called it a Deux Ex Machina now on top of it) argued with me about it. I actually even had to do the math to prove that even if Malack hadnt cast defensively and got aoe by Belkar, he'd have most likely succeeded that concentration check with a 1. And Belkar was unlikely to succeed that save with a 20 too. So yeah, thought it was obvious but was apparently the only one. Go look up all I won in the betting table, I even got a Master Ball!
I guess people are so used to roller-coaster plot twists that when (once upon a while) something simple and easily-explainable happens, they find themselves lost.

[Kirgoth]

Lord Nergal has blessed Malak with another rare resource, a helpless high level non-mage, it would be extremely rude if he didn't make use of him. I believe Belkar will become another divine gift (like the mummies).

Nergal-plague/dispair/disease and death god, so im pretty sure were looking at undeath here, which fits the taking the last breath prophecy.

Belkar the Morgh would be cool as they are animated mass murderers, which fits pretty well.

[xyzchyx]

Hmmm... so Belkar's turned into an anime character now, shouting his attacks as he performs them.

Amusing.

[Hrairoo]

Hopefully this comic will come to a conclusion before I die, so I can find out what he was thinking. (no dig at Rich, I'm prolly not gonna be around much longer. Also, a webcomic I followed for years finally ended last year, and it was surprisingly sad).



Hope you're not joking dude. Are you in good health? Don't go anywhere... :smalleek:

Also, I have faith that when OotS does finally end, it will be suitably epic. :smallbiggrin:

[Spelluck]

I like how everyone is overlooking the fact that you get a saving throw every round for a hold person effect. Readied action still moves your spot in initiative. Belkar now has the chance to break the hold person by a secondary will save on his turn as a full round action.

That, and I wouldn't be at all surprised that Malack's coup de grace damage is incredibly weak and well within the ranges of what Belkar's fortitude could save against.

My fingers are crossed on one of these two outcomes. I'm going to bed tonight holding onto these dreams.

Live Belkar, live!

[Hrairoo]

Hmmm... so Belkar's turned into an anime character now, shouting his attacks as he performs them.

Amusing.

This particular attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html) has tradition on its side :smallwink:

[Snails]

From a D&D play perspective, lone fighterish characters gets owned by a simple spell is not a surprising result.

From a dramatic perspective, Belkar has a track record of failing to resist even weak Will effects. If Malack got off even one single spell, there could be only one possible result.

[JennTora]

Why stop at one resurrection then? He can be trapped in an endless loops of deaths and resurrections, ending only when someone presses CTRL-ALT-DEL. Yes, I know, this makes only slightly more sense then half of the other Belkar theories.

Yes as long as the last one was permanent, belkar could be killed a hundred, or a thousand times before the end of the year and the prophecy would still be fulfilled... that's all I was saying.

[Snails]

That, and I wouldn't be at all surprised that Malack's coup de grace damage is incredibly weak and well within the ranges of what Belkar's fortitude could save against.

Yes, but Belkar never has made a Will save before, and I do not think he will start now.

The CdG is critical damage, so it may be as low as a lousy 2d6 for a DC 17 fort save. But being doubled damage, getting up to DC 30 for the CdG is not hard even for a cleric who likes to avoid melee.

[dethkruzer]

So malack has probably one-and-a-half dozen rounds to pop high level save-or-dies on Belkars helpless halfling ass. Was kinda hoping to see the little bastard go out in a blaze of glory...

[Psyren]

This particular attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html) has tradition on its side :smallwink:

...Wow, completely forgot that. Nice callback!

[The Giant]

Pretty sure that was meant to be a joke, dude. See "Deux Ex Machina" refers to when Greek plays would be solved by the gods coming in at the end nd solving whatever problem was there.

What Trixie is saying is, if a cleric calls on his god to solve a problem, does that count as a Deus Ex Machina. Get it? Cause he's calling on a god. To solve a problem. Can't believe I'm actually explaining this btw.

Yes, it was a joke on Trixie's part, a joke in the form of, "I think the plot development you just wrote was a Deus Ex Machina, and I have expressed as much by implying that you magically broke the Rules to get the result you wanted. Then, in smaller type, I will make sure everyone knows that's what I'm saying by making an obvious pun about the term 'Deus Ex Machina'." I'm well aware of what the term means, as well as what it means when someone suddenly brings it up with regards to my writing.

Also, as a general guideline, when you can't believe you're explaining something, you should consider that maybe you are the one who is missing some of the subtlety involved in the exchange.

[hoff]

I just want to drop by and say that when you put something to text (especially on the internet) there is always some context that in your head is quite clear but is lost on letters.

There is no need to get all angry about plot development. I'm sure the original poster was just posting his thoughts on the subject without thinking it over too much. While the Giant probably spends at least a hour thinking of the outcomes of each strip.

[Canisius]

Hope you're not joking dude. Are you in good health? Don't go anywhere... :smalleek:

Also, I have faith that when OotS does finally end, it will be suitably epic. :smallbiggrin:

Na. Won't see who's the next President, barring some miracle. Hope if I do the deep-dive, Rich will screen the ending for me. =)

[Querzis]

I'm sure the original poster was just posting his thoughts on the subject without thinking it over too much. While the Giant probably spends at least a hour thinking of the outcomes of each strip.

Once again, Trixie did think about this a lot. It wasnt a joke, go check out his posts in the Belkar vs Malack thread.

[The Pilgrim]

Well, Belkar managed to make a scratch on Malack. That's certainly much more than I was expecting him to be able to do. :smallbiggrin:

Hold Person vs Wisdom Dump Stat for the win.

[Psyren]

Well, Belkar managed to make a scratch on Malack. That's certainly much more than I was expecting him to be able to do. :smallbiggrin:

Hold Person vs Wisdom Dump Stat for the win.

Wisdom dump stat AND two will-poor classes to boot!

[ti'esar]

Of all the possible outcomes from last strip, I'll admit "Belkar goes down like a house of cards in the last three panels" was not one I expected to happen. Although it probably should have been, really.

And despite previous remarks to the contrary, I hope he survives this long enough to have some better last words than an interrupted attack-calling. (For shame, man. Are you no better than Yor?)

[The Pilgrim]

Malack has no reason to leave Belkar alive either.

Apart from saving the spell slots he would have to spend in order to kill an incapacitated enemy... spells that he may need soon since he is alone and lost in a dungeon... apart from that, no, he has no reason to leave Belkar alive.

In the other claw, he could just bludgeon him to death. But that doesn't looks like frail Malack's style.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Belkar was presumably raging at least, which boosts will save.


I like how everyone is overlooking the fact that you get a saving throw every round for a hold person effect. Readied action still moves your spot in initiative. Belkar now has the chance to break the hold person by a secondary will save on his turn as a full round action.

No, you don't seem to understand how a readied action works. Malack interrupted Belkar's turn with hi readied spell. Thus, Belkar no longer has a full round action remaining ot save again. Further, Malack's init is now just before Belkar's, so he will get a full round action to CdG before Belkar can even attempt a 2nd save against the spell.

Readying CdG to disrupt in the middle of someone's turn is actually THE most optimal use of the spell, specifically because of the above interaction with the init system.

And Malack's CdG can be "HARM!" if he so wants. Harm itself can't kill you, but failing a DC 300 fort save caused by it still will.

[Cuthalion]

I think Malack won't kill him yet, maybe just move on and attack if they meet again.

[rgrekejin]

Boy, everyone is just so *certain* that Belkar's gonna die here. We've seen characters get out of jams this bad before... and I'm not even super convinced that Malack really even intends to kill Belkar. I dunno. It just seems that if he really wanted him dead, there would have been better spells to lead off with than "Hold Person".

[Barsoom]

Belkar was presumably raging at least, which boosts will save.

Since Malak (as your yourself pointed out) interrupted Belkar's action - and rage can only be initiated during your action - poor Belkar didn't even get to rage.

[Caivs]

Hehe, I simply love how Malack so easily proved wrong all those saying he didn't stand a chance against Belkar. Awesome.

Now, as to whether he'll kill Belkar or not...I guess what he said in this strip proves that it is what he's most likely going to do, but it seems somewhat boring...I do NOT think all deaths have to be on the top of a mountain with dramatic lightning and music, but they have to at least be a little surprising. I mean, if the first spell he casted had been an insta-kill, it would have been incredibly shocking, but calmly ending him as he lays uncouncious? I don't see it happening. I sense next strip will either have Malack monologuing and deciding to spare him, or someone else will intervene and change the issue.

[IamL]

Either way, I'm going to miss Belkar. So many evil memories...
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html

But regardless, if V shows up, it's Game Over for Malack, so long as V prepared a decent amount of Reflex or Fortitude-save spells.

[DukeGod]

After seeing so much Plot Armor going around in other stories, I'm wishing Malack goes through with it and ends Belkar for good

As in totally, completely dead, with no chance of ressurection

[Peelee]

No matter how hard or loose the Giant plays with the rules, I'm sure the gist is mostly maintained. In the case of a Hold Person spell, it's a paralyzing spell with a limited duration. That's really all we need to know. I may have been overly specific when I mentioned the duration of 1 round/level, but really, even if it's changed on a whim by a factor of 2 or a factor of 10, does it matter?

Ya know, it does. First, let me take back my position. Even by rules, assuming Malack is level 15 (not an unreasonable assumption), that's a quarter-hour head start in a labyrinthine pyramid. That doesn't put Belkat on his tail at all, considering he was split from the party for all of a couple minutes (again, a reasonable assumption), and can't even find his way back. Changed by a factor of 2 or 10 gets an incredible amount of time, and the base of 15 minutes is still a massive head start where Belkar will likely not find him.

[zimmerwald1915]

Either way, I'm going to miss Belkar. So many evil memories...
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html

But regardless, if V shows up, it's Game Over for Malack, so long as V prepared a decent amount of Reflex or Fortitude-save spells.
It wouldn't be V if she didn't prepare Ref-targeting spells.

That said, I doubt she'll be intervening. The last time we saw her was in a roughly-bored cave, while these walls look to still be made of worked stone and mortar.

[Anarion]

I wonder if Malack had paid enough attention to this point to realize that Belkar had an utterly horrid will save, or if he just went with hold person as a good default first round spell against a single opponent. It's so good when it works, and so terrible had Belkar happened to get that 1 in 20 chance of making the save.

I would be a little sad if Belkar dies with that open mouth rage expression though. I feel like he ought to go smiling into the grave.

[Kairamek]

There is a not insignificant part of me that hopes this isn't a tease. There seems something pointless and ignoble about Belkar dying here that is perfect symmetry to his story arc.

[Psyren]

I mean, if the first spell he casted had been an insta-kill, it would have been incredibly shocking, but calmly ending him as he lays uncouncious? I don't see it happening. I sense next strip will either have Malack monologuing and deciding to spare him, or someone else will intervene and change the issue.

"Unconscious?" Oh, no, not at all.


It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech.

Belkar is fully awake. He knows everything that's going on. If anybody will be monologuing next strip, it'll be him (mentally.) And he has a full, agonizing 6 seconds (if not more) in which to reflect on his entire life of mayhem, evil and self-actualization, and how it led to one of the most ironic ends possible for him - killed not by a vengeful do-gooder, nor going out in a blaze of glory, but by someone who was simply more powerful than he was and could hardly care less. And just when he had this whole "life" thing figured out, too. Frankly, it's delicious.

All the pathos/drama you could want can be squeezed from those 6 seconds, without even changing the outcome.


There is a not insignificant part of me that hopes this isn't a tease. There seems something pointless and ignoble about Belkar dying here that is perfect symmetry to his story arc.

I can only hope that Tarquin's death is similarly perfunctory. (Not Xykon though - he definitely deserves an epic send-off.)

[ZerglingOne]

I'm pretty sure the Barbarian Rage is a Chekhov's Gun. The will save bonus will give him a high enough roll to overcome the saving throw of hold person, and the bonus hp is probably going to hold out just long enough for him to beat Malack (not necessarily kill) and fall unconscious. I could be very wrong about this, but this is my prediction.

[Math_Mage]

Ya know, it does. First, let me take back my position. Even by rules, assuming Malack is level 15 (not an unreasonable assumption), that's a quarter-hour head start in a labyrinthine pyramid. That doesn't put Belkat on his tail at all, considering he was split from the party for all of a couple minutes (again, a reasonable assumption), and can't even find his way back. Changed by a factor of 2 or 10 gets an incredible amount of time, and the base of 15 minutes is still a massive head start where Belkar will likely not find him.

Hold Person has a duration of 1 round, or 6 seconds, per level. By rules, Malack gets 90 seconds. A factor of 10 might change the immediate situation significantly, but won't change the base factor of "Murderous halfling on the other team gonna be going for my lizard gizzard when this wears off, might as well take him out now."

[Scarlet Knight]

Of course B will survive this. Didn't you just hear/read him say that whenever someone says something like that they win in a weird way? Him winning now is like a one in a million chance --- It's guaranteed!

:belkar: "Strike me down & I shall become more powerful than you can imagine!"

[Barsoom]

So malack has probably one-and-a-half dozen rounds to pop high level save-or-dies on Belkars helpless halfling ass.We already know he has the Harm+Quickened Cause Moderate Wounds combo, which is no-save-just-die. Assuming he'd want to waste high-level spells on this halfling nobody, of course.

[Sweet_Goddess]

Since Hold Person only has a duration of 1 round/level, it could be expected that within about 90 seconds Malak will have a very angry halfling on his tail. Again. Therefore, no, sparing him is not simpler. The utilitarian choice is to kill him once and for all.

No, leaving and sparing him is simpler. Save's spells, saves time, saves effort, gets away from the other threats.


Now's here what I'd just love to see next...

Belkar wakes up (well, gets movement restored), finding himself bound to some slow, mechanical device which will gradually and eventually inflict death ... (you know, like classic TV Batman... or James Bond...) :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

Because otherwise, why else use Hold Person instead of something more instantly-death-causing ?? :smallbiggrin:

Because more instant death causing spells can't be cast the same way. This is a spell that can be readied and cast quick.



The problem with the joke is that in D&D, the god's involvement in the process stops at spell preparation.

Except, that in this case, it isn't. As we've seen with Durkon and his spell requests to Thor, deitic involvement continues until and even after the spell is cast...



Hmmm... so Belkar's turned into an anime character now, shouting his attacks as he performs them.

Amusing.

Nah, attacks, especially death from above and halfling rage attack are long time classics, not to mention *SNEAK ATTACK* by every rogue.



I like how everyone is overlooking the fact that you get a saving throw every round for a hold person effect. Readied action still moves your spot in initiative. Belkar now has the chance to break the hold person by a secondary will save on his turn as a full round action.

That, and I wouldn't be at all surprised that Malack's coup de grace damage is incredibly weak and well within the ranges of what Belkar's fortitude could save against.

My fingers are crossed on one of these two outcomes. I'm going to bed tonight holding onto these dreams.

Live Belkar, live!

Belkar will live... and be awesome!!!


This particular attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html) has tradition on its side :smallwink:


Apart from saving the spell slots he would have to spend in order to kill an incapacitated enemy... spells that he may need soon since he is alone and lost in a dungeon... apart from that, no, he has no reason to leave Belkar alive.

In the other claw, he could just bludgeon him to death. But that doesn't looks like frail Malack's style.

Yeah, waling away would be the more likely outcome, or maybe foolishly debating and monologuing


Belkar was presumably raging at least, which boosts will save.

No, you don't seem to understand how a readied action works. Malack interrupted Belkar's turn with his readied spell. Thus, Belkar no longer has a full round action remaining ot save again. Further, Malack's init is now just before Belkar's, so he will get a full round action to CdG before Belkar can even attempt a 2nd save against the spell.

Readying CdG to disrupt in the middle of someone's turn is actually THE most optimal use of the spell, specifically because of the above interaction with the init system.

And Malack's CdG can be "HARM!" if he so wants. Harm itself can't kill you, but failing a DC 300 fort save caused by it still will.

Malack use his turn, if he doesn't flee now, Malack (with his low, and just further reduced, HP) is dead


There is a not insignificant part of me that hopes this isn't a tease. There seems something pointless and ignoble about Belkar dying here that is perfect symmetry to his story arc.

Okay, this is not a tease, because to tease would imply their was hints that Belkar would die...

Malack cast a spell, Mr. Scruffy is in less then 1 square distance... that is AoO... Mr. Scruffy uses Feline Rage Jumping Four Claw Anti-Spell Caster Face Attack of DOOM!!!! Malack fails the strength check, allowing Mr. Skruffy to deal more damage over time on his own turn (which he has not used yet this round) and then Coup de Grace Malack... Malack's only hope is to flee... now, or beg for Mr. Scruffy's forgiveness, use talking is a free action to explain to Belkar that they shouldn't fight, because they both want to Kill Nale, and then free Belkar... 2 options, only hope for Malack, cause if V shows up, it is Disintigrate time, and even if V doesn't show up, Mr. Scruffy can slaughter Malack this round.

[JackRackham]

Particularly when both his classes have a crap will save
And he is known to have a Wisdom penalty. This scene kind of parallels what happened to Thog in the fight where Elan was saving Haley from Nale.

[Math_Mage]

Okay, this is not a tease, because to tease would imply their was hints that Belkar would die...

Malack cast a spell, Mr. Scruffy is in less then 1 square distance... that is AoO... Mr. Scruffy uses Feline Rage Jumping Four Claw Anti-Spell Caster Face Attack of DOOM!!!! Malack fails the strength check, allowing Mr. Skruffy to deal more damage over time on his own turn (which he has not used yet this round) and then Coup de Grace Malack... Malack's only hope is to flee... now, or beg for Mr. Scruffy's forgiveness, use talking is a free action to explain to Belkar that they shouldn't fight, because they both want to Kill Nale, and then free Belkar... 2 options, only hope for Malack, cause if V shows up, it is Disintigrate time, and even if V doesn't show up, Mr. Scruffy can slaughter Malack this round.

I'd presume tongue firmly in cheek, but that would disagree with the rest of your post. :smallconfused:

[Sedgewood]

Boy, everyone is just so *certain* that Belkar's gonna die here. We've seen characters get out of jams this bad before... and I'm not even super convinced that Malack really even intends to kill Belkar. Maybe he intends to cast "Quest" on him and set him on Nale. I dunno. It just seems that if he really wanted him dead, there would have been better spells to lead off with than "Hold Person".

The fact that he went down so fast in and of itself leads me to believe that Belkar will survive this encounter. Hold Person, Coup de Grace is a terribly unsatisfying way for Belkar to die. Though undead Belkar (for real this time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html)) could also be interesting.

Now, V and Malack were on cordial terms before. If V were to make a timely appearance, a temporary truce could be in the cards. Plus, Malack may be interested to learn all about where those mummies came from...

[Psyren]

I'd presume tongue firmly in cheek, but that would disagree with the rest of your post. :smallconfused:

Yeah, not sure if serious.



Except, that in this case, it isn't. As we've seen with Durkon and his spell requests to Thor, deitic involvement continues until and even after the spell is cast...

Spell requests ARE preparation. My statement stands.

The one incident where you could maybe say Thor got involved was in Cliffport, and that situation isn't analagous - at a bare minimum, Nergal is nothing like Thor and thus unlikely to bend the rules of a cast spell to appear awesome.

[whitelaughter]

. Of course, Belkar could definitely walk away from this.
Yes. Malack is a Necromancer.

Die, annoying little halfling! I suppose it is too much to hope that Scruffy will slash open his throat while he's Held......

[ss49]

Comics being posted again? I gotta check out the Workometer....

[Forikroder]

Yes. Malack is a Necromancer.

Die, annoying little halfling! I suppose it is too much to hope that Scruffy will slash open his throat while he's Held......

Malack is not a necromancer hes on the record that he hats raising the dead

unless he thinks that Lord Nergal delivered Belkar to him hes not gonna raise him (and even then probably not he only raised the draketooth's because they made special undead)

hopefully now people are going to realise that Malack isnt gonna double cross Tarquin so easily and isnt secretly plotting some way to kill Nale

was so sick of the last discussion being full of people thinking Belkar and Malack would team up, or that Belkar wouldnt reconize Malack and stupid stuff like that

[theNater]

Apart from saving the spell slots he would have to spend in order to kill an incapacitated enemy... spells that he may need soon since he is alone and lost in a dungeon... apart from that, no, he has no reason to leave Belkar alive.

In the other claw, he could just bludgeon him to death. But that doesn't looks like frail Malack's style.
There's a less physically demanding way to nonmagically take out a helpless opponent. It starts with an s (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0072.html).

[jere7my]

hopefully now people are going to realise that Malack isnt gonna double cross Tarquin so easily and isnt secretly plotting some way to kill Nale

"I could let you live — in the hopes that you will complete your task and end Nale's life in a manner in which I will not be directly responsible. But no... My god teaches me to kill that which I would see dead. Not to send proxies in my stead."

[Peelee]

Hold Person has a duration of 1 round, or 6 seconds, per level. By rules, Malack gets 90 seconds. A factor of 10 might change the immediate situation significantly, but won't change the base factor of "Murderous halfling on the other team gonna be going for my lizard gizzard when this wears off, might as well take him out now."

Man, that was a harsh misread on my part.

[Forikroder]

"I could let you live — in the hopes that you will complete your task and end Nale's life in a manner in which I will not be directly responsible. But no... My god teaches me to kill that which I would see dead. Not to send proxies in my stead."

exactly if Malack kills Nale its going to be out in the open and obvious he did it hes not gonna try to create someoverly complicated plan to pull it off

by neccesity that means Nales safe as long as he can pretend to be useful

[ThePhantasm]

I think V will show up, in all honesty.

[Math_Mage]

Malack is not a necromancer hes on the record that he hats raising the dead

Also, necromancers are wizards that specialize in necromancy, not clerics.

[ti'esar]

Love Malack's last line/punchline, by the way. He's just so unexcited by the whole thing.


I'd presume tongue firmly in cheek, but that would disagree with the rest of your post. :smallconfused:

Posts, plural.

[the_tick_rules]

Oh poor Belkar, well he's still alive.

[jere7my]

exactly if Malack kills Nale its going to be out in the open and obvious he did it hes not gonna try to create someoverly complicated plan to pull it off

There is no conflict between killing someone in the open in an obvious way and secretly plotting to do so. See: John Wilkes Booth.

[JCAll]

I may not know D&D, but I've played enough Bonk to know that should have done a lot more damage.

[Forikroder]

There is no conflict between killing someone in the open in an obvious way and secretly plotting to do so. See: John Wilkes Booth.

there is, note he specifically saids that "in a way im not directly responsible" so he cant kill Nale himself... yet.... since that would be double crossing his longtime friend and ally Tarquin

however he knows that Tarquin cant keep Nale safe after hes out of uses so Malack has resigned himself to letting Nale live until he can openly kill him

[Math_Mage]

there is, note he specifically saids that "in a way im not directly responsible" so he cant kill Nale himself... yet.... since that would be double crossing his longtime friend and ally Tarquin

however he knows that Tarquin cant keep Nale safe after hes out of uses so Malack has resigned himself to letting Nale live until he can openly kill him

Not seeing the equivalence between "can't kill Nale in a way where Malack is not directly responsible" and "can't kill Nale until Malack won't be double-crossing Tarquin by doing so."

[jere7my]

there is, note he specifically saids that "in a way im not directly responsible" so he cant kill Nale himself... yet.... since that would be double crossing his longtime friend and ally Tarquin

however he knows that Tarquin cant keep Nale safe after hes out of uses so Malack has resigned himself to letting Nale live until he can openly kill him

Certainly Malack is feeling conflicted, but we already knew that. Even if he is planning to wait until Tarquin is done with Nale, 1) that counts as secretly planning to kill Nale in my book, and 2) he could very well be contemplating a backup plan in case Tarquin proves unwilling to follow through on the implied promise.

[Forikroder]

Certainly Malack is feeling conflicted, but we already knew that. Even if he is planning to wait until Tarquin is done with Nale, 1) that counts as secretly planning to kill Nale in my book, and 2) he could very well be contemplating a backup plan in case Tarquin proves unwilling to follow through on the implied promise.

its not secretly planning, hes quite openly planning Tarquin is smart enough to know that Malack plans to kill Nale as soon as Nale stops being useful

you have to remember that Tarquin and Malack are equals, Tarquin cant double cross Malack and that means Malack gets to feed Nales soul to Nergal because Tarquin wants the continent more then he wants Nale alive becuase even if he tries to protect Nale its likely that Malack just kills them all anyway and even if he gets past Malack the other 4 members of the part will raise him and lynch Tarquin

Tarquin cannot both take over the continent and keep Nale alive

[jere7my]

its not secretly planning, hes quite openly planning Tarquin is smart enough to know that Malack plans to kill Nale as soon as Nale stops being useful

Does anyone know other than Tarquin and Malack (and, maybe, now Belkar)? That sounds pretty secret to me.

And Tarquin is a very complicated character. Malack would be a fool not to be planning for the possibility that Tarquin will find a reason to keep Nale alive.

[snikrept]

Malack does not fail to disappoint, again.

Hope we def. see more of him as the comic progresses

[Math_Mage]

Does anyone know other than Tarquin and Malack (and, maybe, now Belkar)? That sounds pretty secret to me.

And Tarquin is a very complicated character. Malack would be a fool not to be planning for the possibility that Tarquin will find a reason to keep Nale alive.

To be fair, forikroder was the one who first talked about 'secret plotting' and 'double crossing Tarquin', so the concepts are linked in this discussion. If secret plotting in general had been a speculation before now, and forikroder had seized on that to talk about the specific case of keeping a plot secret from Tarquin, then you would be correct.

[Forikroder]

Does anyone know other than Tarquin and Malack (and, maybe, now Belkar)? That sounds pretty secret to me.

And Tarquin is a very complicated character. Malack would be a fool not to be planning for the possibility that Tarquin will find a reason to keep Nale alive.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html

Tarquin doesnt seem that interested in keeping Nale alive and his opinion of Nale has only gone further south after seeing how completely incompetent he is

Malack doesnt really need a plan to deal with Tarquin the most complicated thing he needs to do is call his 4 other allys and they come and lynch tarquin for daring to turn against them

Tarquin has no reason (and doesnt seem the type) to choose Nale over being able to live like a god until his epic death (and then continue living as a legend)

(BTW the comic i linked should clearly outline how secret Malacks plan to kill Nale is)

[jere7my]

Tarquin doesnt seem that interested in keeping Nale alive and his opinion of Nale has only gone further south after seeing how completely incompetent he is

Malack doesnt really need a plan to deal with Tarquin the most complicated thing he needs to do is call his 4 other allys and they come and lynch tarquin for daring to turn against them

Tarquin has no reason (and doesnt seem the type) to choose Nale over being able to live like a god until his epic death (and then continue living as a legend)

That's pretty likely. But if I were Malack I would still have a plan to kill Nale if Tarquin's plans "evolve". Is it beyond belief that Tarquin would find a way to spirit Nale away, for the sake of filial affection or narrative structure, in such a way that Malack thinks Nale escaped on his own?

And how is your "I will call the other members of our party and convince them to turn against Tarquin if he doesn't let me kill Nale" not a secret plan?


(BTW the comic i linked should clearly outline how secret Malacks plan to kill Nale is)

It is not a secret that Malack wants to kill Nale. It is a secret that he intends to kill Nale (or that Tarquin will let him do so), since only Tarquin and Malack know it — if, indeed, Malack is not merely assuming that that's Tarquin's implied plan. Nale thinks he's earned a reprieve from Dad.

Malack certainly has a secret plan to kill Nale. Whether Tarquin is in on the secret has not yet been spelled out in the comic, and whether Tarquin lives up to his end of the possible plan is yet to be seen.

[fruityjanitor]

Awesome strip!

From about the 3rd panel on, I had this foreboding feeling that Malack was going to be the one who finally ends Belkar's life.

When I came to the forums, I immediately saw that I was not the only one who felt that way. Sure there are a lot of people who disagree or who aren't so sure, but it wouldn't be the GitP forums without lots of disagreement! :smallbiggrin:

I wish I was more eloquent so I could explain it better, but there are a lot of reasons that Belkar dying here at Malack's hand would be great.

First of all, it is so anticlimactic. Which is unexpected for the sexy shoeles god of war who has taken down dozens of foes in the same battle (on more than one occasion). Dying quietly in a hallway by a high level (but not epic level) Cleric? Without even any witnesses besides his faithful animal companion? The fight isn't even very epic to watch (turned out even less exciting than Redcloak's showdown against the High Priest of the Twelve Gods!). It's such a disappointing way to end his life that it is perfect! :smallsmile:

Also, his hubris about how he is going to win because he has Mr. Scruffy to fight for. The way he phrased his comment pretty much guaranteed that he was going to lose, and very likely die. this comment will also make the panels showing Mr. Scruffy's reactions even more heartbreaking.

This will also make it so the Order will move Malack from the "decent guy working with our enemies" territory firmly into the "enemy" territory. I hope we get to see Malack talk to Durkon about this incident later. I would love to see how it plays out.

Also, there is the possibility that Malack could raise Belkar as an undead. He was unwilling to "waste" a bunch of mummified corpses earlier, so he probably wouldn't want to "waste" a medium-high level adventurers corpse either.

Sorry about the wall of text. I really wish i could better express just how much I liked this page though! :smallsmile:

[Forikroder]

That's pretty likely. But if I were Malack I would still have a plan to kill Nale if Tarquin's plans "evolve". Is it beyond belief that Tarquin would find a way to spirit Nale away, for the sake of filial affection or narrative structure, in such a way that Malack thinks Nale escaped on his own?

And how is your "I will call the other members of our party and convince them to turn against Tarquin if he doesn't let me kill Nale" not a secret plan?

Tarquins not a wizard hes a fighter he has no way to actually get Nale away and again Tarquin has never shown that he would even want to

a plan is generally at least somewhat complicated, for instance Belkars "plan" to kill Malack was to stab him with his daggers

calling his allies and lynching Tarquin is not a plan its jsut a course of action



It is not a secret that Malack wants to kill Nale. It is a secret that he intends to kill Nale (or that Tarquin will let him do so), since only Tarquin and Malack know it — if, indeed, Malack is not merely assuming that that's Tarquin's implied plan. Nale thinks he's earned a reprieve from Dad.

Malack certainly has a secret plan to kill Nale. Whether Tarquin is in on the secret has not yet been spelled out in the comic, and whether Tarquin lives up to his end of the possible plan is yet to be seen.

its not secret at all taht Malack intends to kill Nale, every time they meet he talks about feeding Nales soul to Nergal

the only secret would be if Malack planned to kill Nale before they got the gate but that doesnt seem to be the case

[natrl20]

So, any speculation on what sort of undead M might turn B into, if it plays out that way? I'm not very knowledgable of the d&d undead bestiary...

We'd need one that was free-willed enough to make smart-ass jokes, and be able to take advantage of B's combat skills...

I love Belkster and hope he somehow doesn't die, but I guess free-willed undead is the best we can hope for given the prophecy. It's too bad Miko didn't get turned undead too; they could have had a great undead-gladiator showdown... :smallfrown:

[Chaotic Queen]

Yes, it was a joke on Trixie's part, a joke in the form of, "I think the plot development you just wrote was a Deus Ex Machina, and I have expressed as much by implying that you magically broke the Rules to get the result you wanted. Then, in smaller type, I will make sure everyone knows that's what I'm saying by making an obvious pun about the term 'Deus Ex Machina'." I'm well aware of what the term means, as well as what it means when someone suddenly brings it up with regards to my writing.

Also, as a general guideline, when you can't believe you're explaining something, you should consider that maybe you are the one who is missing some of the subtlety involved in the exchange.

This is why Rich is my hero! You tell 'em, Giant!

[jere7my]

Tarquins not a wizard hes a fighter he has no way to actually get Nale away and again Tarquin has never shown that he would even want to

Magic items, or something as simple as opening a secret door for him. And Tarquin plays his cards close to his vest; if he is planning to save Nale, there's no reason to think we'd know about it.


a plan is generally at least somewhat complicated, for instance Belkars "plan" to kill Malack was to stab him with his daggers

calling his allies and lynching Tarquin is not a plan its jsut a course of action

It's a course of action after it happens. Until then, it's a plan.

I expect convincing the other members of the party to turn on Tarquin would turn out to be pretty complicated, anyway.


its not secret at all taht Malack intends to kill Nale, every time they meet he talks about feeding Nales soul to Nergal

Again: it is not a secret that Malack wants to kill Nale. It is a secret that he intends to. Nale thinks that Tarquin is holding Malack's leash. He certainly doesn't think he's walking toward his own execution at the Gate.

[Forikroder]

So, any speculation on what sort of undead M might turn B into, if it plays out that way? I'm not very knowledgable of the d&d undead bestiary...

We'd need one that was free-willed enough to make smart-ass jokes, and be able to take advantage of B's combat skills...

I love Belkster and hope he somehow doesn't die, but I guess free-willed undead is the best we can hope for given the prophecy. It's too bad Miko didn't get turned undead too; they could have had a great undead-gladiator showdown... :smallfrown:

Malack doesnt like reviving the dead, and most likely hell kill him in a way that prevents him being raised since that would be the fastest way to finish off Belkar

[Barabbas]

This comic definitively clears up any misconceptions that our albino reptile friend is Lawful Neutral. His religion mandates he personally kill any whom he would see dead; there is no more wiggle room. Malak is evil.

[jere7my]

This comic definitively clears up any misconceptions that our albino reptile friend is Lawful Neutral. His religion mandates he personally kill any whom he would see dead; there is no more wiggle room. Malak is evil.

A ban on hiring hit men does not make for an evil religion.

[natrl20]

Malack doesnt like reviving the dead, and most likely hell kill him in a way that prevents him being raised since that would be the fastest way to finish off Belkar

As I said, IF it goes that way. like, IF, as in, like, a conditional?

I really doubt Belkie will be totally out of the comic. that just won't happen. I realize some people hate him, but... no.
Really, I don't understand how you can hate a character in a comic that you like, as in not just hate the person that the character is in-world, but actually hate the character as a character. This comic is genius, it is a masterpiece--there are no bad characters. Belkar is a bastard (duh), but he is a brilliant character. Ditto for Tarquin. It strikes as really disrespectful to his Giantness when people ****-talk characters, like "oh, I can't wait for so and so to die."

We are all on this forum as admirers of the Giants work, this wonderful world he's created for us all to live in a little bit each month. Show some freaking respect, people.

[rewinn]

Well, my theory that M and B might ally didn't pan out, although it was nice to see the two principals work out the logic. Each did it in his own way: Malack with calm consideration (and it's interesting to learn a bit more about Nergal!) and a refusal to bend the rules, Belkar with a bit more passion and a flawed concept of heroic tropes (like a demented version of Elan).

Belkar's lesson did, indeed, fail.

Now my question is: since Belkar is fully conscious, can he communicate with Mr. Scruffy as his Animal Companion? Can Mr. Scruffy run away and get help, like Lassie? Will Malack kill Mr. Scruffy?

[Forikroder]

Again: it is not a secret that Malack wants to kill Nale. It is a secret that he intends to. Nale thinks that Tarquin is holding Malack's leash. He certainly doesn't think he's walking toward his own execution at the Gate.

thats because Nale is barely smarter then Thog, hes spent ever action he can to fuel Malacks fire


Magic items, or something as simple as opening a secret door for him. And Tarquin plays his cards close to his vest; if he is planning to save Nale, there's no reason to think we'd know about it.

it would be near impossible for Tarquin to pull that off because once again he cant have both, he cant both get the gate AND save Nale because once there at the gate Malack isnt going to let Nale out of his sight so hes have to help Nale escape before then but then he doesnt get the gate


It's a course of action after it happens. Until then, it's a plan.

I expect convincing the other members of the party to turn on Tarquin would turn out to be pretty complicated, anyway.

there all evil, so convincing them to kill someone who just delayed there plan to save his idiot son wouldnt be hard


This comic definitively clears up any misconceptions that our albino reptile friend is Lawful Neutral. His religion mandates he personally kill any whom he would see dead; there is no more wiggle room. Malak is evil.

not really, Nale killed his children he could be alwful good and justified in killing Nale


As I said, IF it goes that way. like, IF, as in, like, a conditional?

I really doubt Belkie will be totally out of the comic. that just won't happen. I realize some people hate him, but... no.
Really, I don't understand how you can hate a character in a comic that you like, as in not just hate the person that the character is in-world, but actually hate the character as a character. This comic is genius, it is a masterpiece--there are no bad characters. Belkar is a bastard (duh), but he is a brilliant character. Ditto for Tarquin. It strikes as really disrespectful to his Giantness when people ****-talk characters, like "oh, I can't wait for so and so to die."

We are all on this forum as admirers of the Giants work, this wonderful world he's created for us all to live in a little bit each month. Show some freaking respect, people.

its not disrespect in the least to hate a character, some characters are made to be hated in fact hating Belkar is a compliment to the giant since he made a character so realistic that it attracted love and hate as if it was a real person

[orrion]

Aha.

Belkar failed the lesson because he didn't realize that the reason people succeed is because they have a strong will.

As evidenced by his failure to save against Hold Person (and every other mind-affecting spell that's ever been cast on him), Belkar has a weak will.

Poor Belkar.

[ti'esar]

A ban on hiring hit men does not make for an evil religion.

And it's completely possible for him to be a LN cleric of a LE god anyway.

[jere7my]

it would be near impossible for Tarquin to pull that off because once again he cant have both, he cant both get the gate AND save Nale because once there at the gate Malack isnt going to let Nale out of his sight so hes have to help Nale escape before then but then he doesnt get the gate

For all we know, Tarquin has a ring of teleportation he's planning to slip to Nale during what I expect to be a rather confusing scrum around the Gate. Or he might convince Malack that they need to return him to the palace for some reason, which would give him plenty of opportunities. Or any of a zillion other plans that Malack would be smart to give some thought to.

Tarquin might be very happy to throw Nale to Malack, but if I were Malack I would always plan for the worst around Tarquin.


there all evil, so convincing them to kill someone who just delayed there plan to save his idiot son wouldnt be hard

Apart from the fact that that's not what evil means — evil people can be very reluctant to kill their friends, too — Malack would be convincing them to upend the entire plan for the sake of his personal revenge. Sounds like a hard sell.

[Finagle]

What is this, five entire pages and barely a word about the fact that Belkar stated openly that he cares for something other than himself?

That's huge! He's going from pure-selfish Chaotic Evil to a more standard Chaotic Evil of only caring about people who are close to him. Bazonga character growth! Easily the most earth-shattering Belkar comic since Shojo's apparition.

[ti'esar]

What is this, five entire pages and barely a word about the fact that Belkar stated openly that he cares for something other than himself?

That's huge! He's going from pure-selfish Chaotic Evil to a more standard Chaotic Evil of only caring about people who are close to him. Bazonga character growth! Easily the most earth-shattering Belkar comic since Shojo's apparition.

Probably because it's been all-but-openly stated since at least 807. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html) I'm not sure that the explicit acknowledgement of a long-lasting process that Belkar himself is aware of really makes for an "earth-shattering comic".

[Finagle]

IMO that comic and Belkar's openly stating "I understand heroes now" are two quite different things. I'd call it earth-shaking, but everyone just wants to talk about the technical details of the fight and how they hope hope hope Belkar will die here.

Belkar won't die until he's so far redeemed even the Belkar haters are actively rooting for him...only to be killed by some vicious evil of the type that he used to represent. That's how you kill off a main character.

[Math_Mage]

IMO that comic and Belkar's openly stating "I understand heroes now" are two quite different things. I'd call it earth-shaking, but everyone just wants to talk about the technical details of the fight and how they hope hope hope Belkar will die here.

Belkar won't die until he's so far redeemed even the Belkar haters are actively rooting for him...only to be killed by some vicious evil of the type that he used to represent. That's how you kill off a main character.

He understands heroic tropes. He still doesn't understand heroism, even if his heroic pretense is slowly dragging him kicking and screaming towards having a conscience.

As a matter of prediction, I don't expect Belkar to be redeemed.

[oppyu]

Is it just me, or does Belkar constantly jump too high, scream something aggressive, and then get taken down? It happened against Nale by Nale (Charm Person), against Nale by Tarquin (throwing an axe), and now against Malack.

Maybe he'd be more effective without the Ring of Jumping +20

[Subzero008]

Yes, it was a joke on Trixie's part, a joke in the form of, "I think the plot development you just wrote was a Deus Ex Machina, and I have expressed as much by implying that you magically broke the Rules to get the result you wanted. Then, in smaller type, I will make sure everyone knows that's what I'm saying by making an obvious pun about the term 'Deus Ex Machina'." I'm well aware of what the term means, as well as what it means when someone suddenly brings it up with regards to my writing.

Also, as a general guideline, when you can't believe you're explaining something, you should consider that maybe you are the one who is missing some of the subtlety involved in the exchange.

Can we move on?

[Subzero008]

Is it just me, or does Belkar constantly jump too high, scream something aggressive, and then get taken down? It happened against Nale by Nale (Charm Person), against Nale by Tarquin (throwing an axe), and now against Malack.

Maybe he'd be more effective without the Ring of Jumping +20

Nice observation. Don't you get a penalty on the attack roll by leaping to attack?

[coineineagh]

First blood: Belkar:smallbiggrin:

[BriarHobbit]

Yikes. It looks bad for Belkar. Blowing a Wisdom Save vs. a (deadly) second level cleric spell.

[theNater]

I really doubt Belkie will be totally out of the comic. that just won't happen.
Miko, Tsukiko, and Therkla all died and stayed dead. As the death toll of characters mounts, it becomes less and less plausible that the main characters will prove immune merely due to their status as main characters.

ETA: Should put Thanh in there too, so we don't make the mistake of believing it's only antagonists.

[Red Lantern]

You know, I'm not going to argue this point with anyone, but I will say that to me this strip had belkar making a real, deep, fundamental change.

He said "I finally get why roy and those guys are always trying to defend other people.

Because now I have someone worth fighting for."

Now sure, he may have thought the last line would help him win, but what he said before that showed he'd changed in a real way.

He didn't think good guys were stupid anymore, he finally got it, why they did what they did.

So if he finally understood it, as in felt it, it would mean he had to have moved away from being completely evil, selfish etc.

Sure, he'd have like to kill malak, he was an enemy who attacked them, but it's likely he might no longer have killed so gratuitously or unnecessarily.

I think he did make some real change there. Apparently he'd never felt that way before, thought protecting others was stupid good guy stuff. But he finally got it.

Too bad it was so late in the game for him....:frown:

[LuPuWei]

And so it begins... and possibly ends (for the Belkster)


I do like how there really isn't much animosity between Belkar and Malack though.

This got me thinking... this is basically a fight between the Evil member in the team of Good guys and the possibly-not-actually-Evil member of the team of Evil guys- a battle between the odd-alignments-out...

[StreamOfTheSky]

Since Malak (as your yourself pointed out) interrupted Belkar's action - and rage can only be initiated during your action - poor Belkar didn't even get to rage.

Entering Rage is a free action, and doing so boosts your to hit and damage. There is no reason at all if you plan to enter it on a given round to wait until after your attack has resolved (unless you expect to drop the foe without it on the first turn, but then you wouldn't be planning on using it anyway; and I don't think Belkar takes Malak that lightly...). Belkar was in the middle of his action, leaping at and attacking Malak. He is almost surely in rage if Belkar's attack description wasn't just meaningless flavor text.

[Enterti]

The oracle's prophecy was quite specific: Belkar will draw his last breath, EVER, by the end of the year. So technically he could be turned undead, however when he dies, he won't be resurrected for some reason.


You know I have been thinking about this for a while, what if it just means that Belkar would be put into such a state that he no longer needs to breath to live?

[Gettles]

Has Belkar ever passed on a Will Save?

[zimmerwald1915]

Miko, Tsukiko, and Therkla all died and stayed dead. As the death toll of characters mounts, it becomes less and less plausible that the main characters will prove immune merely due to their status as main characters.

ETA: Should put Thanh in there too, so we don't make the mistake of believing it's only antagonists.
So what, we're supposed to believe that the list only including Azurites is coincidence? :smalltongue:

[Chantelune]

Is it me or does Elan starts to rub off on Belkar ? :smallconfused:

If so, it's time for him to kick the bucket, yeah, he's a lost cause. :smallsigh:

[Math_Mage]

You know I have been thinking about this for a while, what if it just means that Belkar would be put into such a state that he no longer needs to breath to live?

He's also not long for this world. So, y'know, unless he's an intelligent non-breathing undead who doesn't eat birthday cake AND lives on another plane...

[Sweet_Goddess]

He's also not long for this world. So, y'know, unless he's an intelligent non-breathing undead who doesn't eat birthday cake AND lives on another plane...

Why are you still quoting the liar, whose prophecies to do with Belkar have never come true?

Why are you quoting the guy who hasn't even had a 50% success rate from things we've seen?

Why are you quoting the guy who doesn't prevent his own deaths, and takes level loss, over, and over again, rather then be honest?

Why are you quoting the guy who doesn't prevent events that will anger his deity, despite the fact his prophecies come from that deity?

Seriously, forget the Oracle's prophecies, they don't matter, they've never mattered, and they've all be lies or half-truths.

Belkar is a chef, he can make a cake whenever he want, so let me explain this real simply for you...

The Oracle's cake prophecy is a lie

Belkar is short, in a world of sticks... he has never been 'long' so he is not long for this world is a height joke.

And it is never said he will breath his last breath, ever... it is he will draw his last breath... Last Breath Ever will be a magical weapon that he will draw, and will be his.

In a world of D&D, where the Oracle makes distorted prophecies, you have to stop looking literally, and start looking for the warped DM's dirty trick play on words interpretations.

-----------------------------------------

It is silly, people are so fixated on Belkar's death, that they see death around every corner for him.

Look, new Kobold, this one will kill Belkar.

Look, Belkar let a Dinosaur loose, the Dino will eat Belkar.

Look, Belkar ate spice, he's going to die of an oversdose.

Look, Belkar didn't die of an overdose, but the worms are drawn to the spice, the worms will eat Belkar.

Look, a pebble, Belkar is going to trip over it and break his neck.

Look, an ambiguous drop of ink, it must be the black spot, and Belkar is marked for death.

Look, Belkar is in a Panel, this must be the moment when Belkar will eat his cake, draw his last breath ever, and be not long for this world.


Seriously, it is just plain pathetic. I have a prediction, Belkar will be alive in the next Panel we see him in. Now, if I'm right, I ask politely that everyone who has predicted Belkar's demise accept that I am a better Oracle, and forget the Oracle prophecies until either the series ends or Belkar actually dies. Until then, don't mention them, don't look for Belkar's death, the absurdity of trying to predict a death that isn't happening when you predicted it would happen is annoying, because so far... I keep predicting that these won't be his deaths when others have said he will die. Everyone who has said a 'This is when Belkar is going to die' has had a 100% failure rate, I have had a 100% success rate... so I think I've earned the honor of saying...

:belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue:
Belkar isn't going to die this time.
:belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue:

[Blue1005]

Can I chip in 20GP to rez B when he dies?

I need my shoeless god of war fix and hate to think of a stick world without him in it. :smalleek:

[Mike Havran]

He didn't think good guys were stupid anymore, he finally got it, why they did what they did.

So if he finally understood it, as in felt it, it would mean he had to have moved away from being completely evil, selfish etc.


I don't think so. He just wanted to use dramatic conventions to get boost in combat, probably thinking that expressing care for somebody else prior encounter gives +8 karma bonus or something.

Like rewinn said, a demented version of Elan.

[talkamancer]

Quickfire updates, thumb must be getting much better, Thanks Giant.

[ti'esar]

I don't think so. He just wanted to use dramatic conventions to get boost in combat, probably thinking that expressing care for somebody else prior encounter gives +8 karma bonus or something.

Like rewinn said, a demented version of Elan.

Hey, it's not a completely ridiculous theory. Love has been known to provide a +2 circumstance bonus to certain skill checks. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0262.html)

And I think you're being just a bit unfair. I consider this the culmination of a long-running process rather than some bold new step in Belkar's characterization, but I do agree that the sentiment is sincere, (even if the genre savvy is warped). Belkar is unquestionably still a vicious chaotic evil monster, but he has developed the capacity to care for another living creature.

[Mike Havran]

Hey, it's not a completely ridiculous theory. Love has been known to provide a +2 circumstance bonus to certain skill checks. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0262.html)

And I think you're being just a bit unfair. I consider this the culmination of a long-running process rather than some bold new step in Belkar's characterization, but I do agree that the sentiment is sincere, (even if the genre savvy is warped). Belkar is unquestionably still a vicious chaotic evil monster, but he has developed the capacity to care for another living creature.

I do think that Belkar genuinely cares for Mr. Scruffy. But I don't think he actually understands why good people defend others (and not only those they care about). I believe he sees it only as a good way to get dramatic bonuses. Malack wasn't about to attack Mr. Scruffy, after all.

[Red Lantern]

I do think that Belkar genuinely cares for Mr. Scruffy. But I don't think he actually understands why good people defend others (and not only those they care about). I believe he sees it only as a good way to get dramatic bonuses. Malack wasn't about to attack Mr. Scruffy, after all.

Attack one, attack both.

[thatSeniorGuy]

Why are you still quoting the liar, whose prophecies to do with Belkar have never come true?

Why are you quoting the guy who hasn't even had a 50% success rate from things we've seen?


...
Things we can verify:

OtOoPCs:
The Oracle correctly gave the name of Xykon as Eugene's master's killer.

The Oracle correctly gave Durkon and Roy Xykon's location.

The Oracle correctly told Haley how she could get her voice back.

The Oracle correctly said that Belkar would kill someone in the list Belkar gave (i.e. the Oracle).

The Oracle correctly predicted how V would get ultimate arcane power.

The Oracle correctly told ABD the name of her son's killer (V).

The Oracle correctly predicted the time of his own death at Belkar's hands, down to the minute.

Things we have yet to see come true:
Durkon's return.
Elan's Happy ending.
Belkar's prophecy.
The gate that Xykon will assault next - but we can be pretty damn sure that this one will come true as well.

I believe that this is all of the Oracle's predictions, and they fit into one of two categories: correct, or lie in the future.

The Oracle has had a success rate of well above 50%, and has made a correct prophecy regarding Belkar.

As for your other comments about the Oracle (e.g. predicting but not doing anything about his own death), you'll have to take it up with the Giant, but it wouldn't phase me in the slightest if there was a 'you try to mess with the future, it doesn't end well for you' deal going on.

I'm not trying to go after you, but the things you're stating are demonstrably not correct.

On a lighter note, Giant, you are continuing to excel at your usual standard, and I await the next strip with great anticipation.

[OPM]

Isn't Nergal very much against the creation of undead? Not that Malak hasn't ignored that teaching before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0856.html)....

But some part of me can almost see Belkar being turned undead... only to get dusted later. But if Malak isn't going to kill him, I suspect he will just control him like the order did with that kobold.

[Killer Angel]

Oh, my. That would totally be an anticlimatic end for Belkar... but very appropriate, nonetheless.

[Adeptus]

Nooooooooooooo! Belkar! :eek:

From what we've seen before, it may be time for Belkar to be turned into some high level undead creature. Noooooooo!

[factotum]

The Oracle has had a success rate of well above 50%, and has made a correct prophecy regarding Belkar.


You realise that using logic won't work here? Even when Belkar dies there will be people who are insisting that doesn't mean the Oracle's prophecy was correct, no matter what!

[thatSeniorGuy]

You realise that using logic won't work here? Even when Belkar dies there will be people who are insisting that doesn't mean the Oracle's prophecy was correct, no matter what!

Eh, I'm new to the boards, my optimism hasn't been Disintegrated yet!

[elros]

Any strip that includes my two favorite characters is going to be memorable, but I am impressed how the Giant, again, is able to show real character depth in just a few panels. We have better insight into Belkar's "transformation" into someone more tolerable, and we learn a lot about Malak's motivations and thinking. I can't wait to read more!

[IamL]

Let's go over the possibilities, going from most anticlimactic to least anticlimactic:

-Malack uses save-or-die spell immediately
-Malack bludgeons B to death
-Either 1 or 2 followed by raising into an undead
-Malack goes on a monologue while we hear B's thoughts, before Malack does any of 1, 2, or 3.
-V shows up and kicks some Cleric butt
-Mr. Scruffy goes back and gets the rest of the party
-Mr. Scruffy keeps Malack occupied for long enough for Belkar to make his save.
-Belkar makes his save without Scruffy's help (because Scruffy tries to get the party)
-Belkar makes his save without Scruffy's help (because Malack kills Scruffy)

[Kaerou]

Go team scaley!

I love that cleric guy.

[KyrtFurey]

Why are you still quoting the liar, whose prophecies to do with Belkar have never come true?

Largely because every prophecy he's made has either come true or hasn't been ruled out yet.

He has an impressive success ratio that is far above 50%


Why are you quoting the guy who doesn't prevent his own deaths, and takes level loss, over, and over again, rather then be honest?

Because he is able to arrange to be ressed minutes later months in advance.


Seriously, forget the Oracle's prophecies, they don't matter, they've never mattered, and they've all be lies or half-truths.

Quote one. He arranged to have himself ressed, he correctly predicted he would die at Belkars hands, Haley got her voice back, Roy and Durkon located Xykon, V gained UAP and he foresaw the need to get rid of Roy.


The Oracle's cake prophecy is a lie

He said Belkar should savor his next Birthday cake (#329).
He said Belkar shouldn't fund his IRA (#329)
He said Belkar isn't long for this world (#572)

The prophesy was that Belkar would draw his last breath ever before the end of the year.(#572)

There may be some trick involved to keep Belkar around - undeath being a good albeit obvious one - but the oracle seems convinced he is going to die.

Everything else is just the oracle driving the point home and not, IMO, a prophesy. Simply smart talk about Belkars death

The question is when and how..


It is silly, people are so fixated on Belkar's death, that they see death around every corner for him.

This is the first time since the prophesy that I felt it could come true in some way. He is in a situation where he can die, and he has made not one, but two statements tempting fate.

Is Fate in the mood to resist?

[Squall83]

Initiative win plus readied action plus casting defensively. It's not even that hard to figure out.

And seriously, it's incredibly insulting to call everything you didn't expect a Deus Ex Machina.
Did you mean "Belkar won the initiative, but Malack had a readied action"? Because it seemed like Belkar was attacking first and if Malack had won the initiative, he wouldn't have needed a readied action.

But to me it would also have made sense if they both had similar initiative values, with Malack being slightly higher, because the turn-based battle is just a mapping of a real-time battle and close initiatives would mean that both people attack at nearly the same time, with one being slightly faster.

[AgentofHellfire]

Plus somehow interrupted start of attack action from someone next to him despite Hold Person being standard, not immediate/free action - and despite casting spells giving AoO :smallwink:

Okay. Let's say the AoO succeeds. By that point, all Malack needs to do is make a concentration check that's...most likely pretty easy for Malack to make (a single dagger hit isn't that great a damage dealer), and Malack can cast anyway.

Or, for any spell with a range greater than touch, just 5-foot step before you cast it. Suddenly, you don't provoke attacks of opportunity!

[Ave]

Since Hold Person only has a duration of 1 round/level, it could be expected that within about 90 seconds Malak will have a very angry halfling on his tail. Again. Therefore, no, sparing him is not simpler. The utilitarian choice is to kill him once and for all.

Or upgrade him from proxy to weapon.

[Squall83]

I agree on the Deus Ex Machina thing being a bad joke. It WOULD however have been a relatively nice joke if what Harr described (and MeanMrsMustard probably implied) were true, i.e. Malack decides what to do by doing exactly what his god dictates. But that wasn't the case and either way there was so need to write "Can't believe I'm actually explaining this btw.".

[King of Nowhere]

I like the casual way malak talks about killing you on your face.

[Forikroder]

Apart from the fact that that's not what evil means — evil people can be very reluctant to kill their friends, too — Malack would be convincing them to upend the entire plan for the sake of his personal revenge. Sounds like a hard sell.

no Malack would not be convincing them to upend there plan just kill a traitor he would jsut be convincing them to kill a traitor


Isn't Nergal very much against the creation of undead? Not that Malak hasn't ignored that teaching before....

But some part of me can almost see Belkar being turned undead... only to get dusted later. But if Malak isn't going to kill him, I suspect he will just control him like the order did with that kobold.

no Malack is against necromancy he considered the corpses a gift from Nergal so if anything Nergal is pro-undead

[Rizzer]

I just figured out what it means that Belkar is "not long for this world."

It means once they win, he ends up living on Xykon's fortress asteroid in the Astral Plane (it's not in this world), making a nice happy home (maybe as innkeeper there) with Serini, the Order of the Scribble's halfing, whom the Order of the Stick will be meeting any time soon...

:p

[Sweet_Goddess]

...
The Oracle correctly gave the name of Xykon as Eugene's master's killer. Knowledge of Past is called History, not Predictions, not a Prediction, anyone with proper spells can get this tidbit... For this to be a Prediction, Eugene would have had to have asked before his Master was killed, so not valid.


The Oracle incorrectly gave Durkon and Roy Xykon's location. Again, not a prediction, it is called scrying. And for that matter, he 1) Generalized... it was the equivilant to saying 'at home' 2) Wrong, because Xykon wasn't even "at home" he was "In the study of someone else's work apartment" so this could even be counted AGAINST his skill since he isn't even 2 for 2 at this point on current/past information, let alone predictions



The Oracle incorrectly told Haley how she could get her voice back.
No, he made up a rooster and steer tale that sounds similar, but is not true. This is a confidence man's trick, you give fancy sounding generalizations that can be shoehorned on to the true events, but when you look at the words and the events accurately instead of with the crowbar in hand to force them on, you see they aren't even remotely close to the same meaning.

What he said was literally, "When a genuine blessing arrives, don't pass it up"

What literally happened was "When a threat in disguise tries to screw you over, you will nearly get killed, almost have your life ruined and lose all you care about, only admitting your true feelings will save you, that which you love, and help you overcome your psychosomatic issue with communication"


The Oracle incorrectly said that Belkar would kill someone in the list Belkar gave (i.e. the Oracle).

1) The question wasn't would he kill, it was would he cause The Death, (i.e. Permanent and Total, like the one the Oracle supposedly is claiming for Belkar), which means the Oracle would have remained dead for this to be a true prophecy. 2) The Oracle was called out on this very prophecy, because it was false, 3) The Oracle then made up a pile of lies, essentially admitting he was a fraud, to try and force a false positive. 4) Since Belkar doesn't even remember the death, it didn't even happen for Belkar... See, any violent act/lethal attack in the boundaries of a city activated the mark, so Death was not required for the Mark, and the Oracle is alive, so this is also a Prophecy that has not come to pass.



The Oracle incorrectly predicted how V would get ultimate arcane power.
1) Generic and wrong statement
2) Can't count
3) Doesn't know right from wrong
4) Just another shoehorn to give credence where there is none
So, Fail, not a success


The Oracle correctly told ABD the name of her son's killer (V).
1) as stated before, past knowledge is not a prediction
2) If he saw the above ultimate arcane power, he would have known to tell ABD that it was not in her nor Tiamet's best interest for her to know the killer's name, and for the sake of her descendants and relatives sake, to go mourn her child and accept it is better for Dragonkind if she doesn't pursue this further, keep her money.
3) Tiamet was angry with the IFCC because of what happened due to this prediction, which means she didn't give the Oracle the power to know about it, which means it had nothing to do with his powers.

So this one is not only not a prediction, but is foolish, and in relation to the previous prediction you mentioned, is downright stupid, which the Oracle should have seen... since the Oracle didn't, This actually has to count against the Oracle. Not can, must. This was a critical failure, and lead to a huge loss of Tiamet's children/followers, undermining the power behind the Oracle's power.


The Oracle incorrectly predicted the time of his own death at Belkar's hands, down to the minute.
1) Self-Fufilling Prophecies aren't predictions, I can predict there will be words after this sentence, simply because you already put some that I'm quoting and I will be putting some, doesn't make it a valid prediction. And the Oracle pushed and pushed, lie after lie, which is an admission of guilt and inability to predict the future, to force this result.
2) Knowing Belkar has the mark, knowing who Belkar is, and knowing his prediction has been a failure, all it takes is while the remnants of the Order are going through the tests, to 'sending' the Troglodytes a message of be there in a reasonable time period, and to push Belkar.


Things we have yet to see come true:
Durkon's return.
Elan's Happy ending.
Belkar's prophecy.
The gate that Xykon will assault next - but we can be pretty damn sure that this one will come true as well.
The Ginkgo Bilboa prophecy for Blackwing

And additionally, until they are seen to be true or false, they remain false. Prophecies rely on being seen to be true, as they are repeatedly false until they are true.

In addition, Xykon's was false. The gate Xykon next assaulted was seen, it was not the one the Oracle said. Limited by Roy's restrictions, the correct answer would have been, "Neither, Xykon will attack the tiny little Azurite Gate, in Azure City, you stupid human that thinks you can outsmart the great and mighty Tiamet"

If the Oracle is to make correct predictions, then only the correct answer is the correct answer. Half-wrong is the same as all wrong, it is wrong.




I believe that this is all of the Oracle's predictions, and they fit into one of two categories: correct, or lie in the future.

Half right on this part, all the Oracle's predictions fit into the category of Lies, be they in the past, present, or future.



The Oracle has had a success rate of well above 50%, and has made a correct prophecy regarding Belkar.

Not seeing it. The successes seem to only come from knowledge of past or present events (which makes him a historian and a scrier, not an Oracle or Seer), or from self-fufilling prophecies.


As for your other comments about the Oracle (e.g. predicting but not doing anything about his own death), you'll have to take it up with the Giant, but it wouldn't phase me in the slightest if there was a 'you try to mess with the future, it doesn't end well for you' deal going on.

As Eugene proved, messing with the future works, even if it takes a bit of effort for some people to understand the meaning.

And the Oracle's own words show he can mess with the future. He could have simply admitted he is a liar and a charlatan, and Belkar probably would have accepted he'd never get to kill any of the list. Only because the Oracle pushed (thereby messing with the future) did he get the death result.

In fact, the whole point of an Oracle IS to mess with the future. Otherwise people would just do the stuff they were going to do with no foreknowledge of the events to come and no way to stop them.

The Oracle could have been honest with Belkar from the beginning
He could have been honest with ABD
And he can still be honest with the Ranger

All of which would avert his or other followers of Tiamet's demise. He chooses not to, because he is a liar and a jerk.



I'm not trying to go after you, but the things you're stating are demonstrably not correct.

No, actually what I'm stating is demonstrably quite correct, once one takes the blinders off and looks clear at the Oracle's lies.

Watch a few episodes of the Mentalist... The Oracle is Patrick Jane before Red John killed his family.

At Best the Oracle is a moderately skilled seer who scries for knowledge and gets some glimpses of the future, but rarely relates them to the customers

More likely the Oracle is an outright charlatan, who can cold read and force self-fufilling prophecies, and has someone scry for him to get knowledge about present/past matters.

Simply put, the combination of ABD's answer (it isn't a prediction, the Oracle didn't warn ABD that V was going to kill her baby before V did), and the alleged successful prediction for V, would not have lead to the IFCC getting calls on lines 2, 3, 5, 8, and 11 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html)

Tiamet gives the Oracle the Prophecies, which means those 3 events could not happen together if the Oracle was a genuine one. Either the events were predestined, and Tiamet knew this, and would not be on those lines, or the events could be changed which would mean the Oracle would have known to tell ABD to not intervene, which means making V's Prophecy never come to be either, or The Oracle couldn't see the future and made up some BS to V which was shoehornable enough that people can deceive themselves to believe three words to no one and a specific action at the wrong time for a mix of right and wrong reasons, is somehow four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reason... while they're similar, they're not the same

"I must succeed" is only three words.
Any shrink will tell you thinking out loud is talking to no one
It was not the right time, when dealing with evil beings, it is the wrong time
And wanting to save your family from a homicidal dragon is not the wrong reasons...

So again, EPIC FAIL on the Oracle's predictions.

Oh, and you're right, the Oracle's predictions are closer to 0% correct.

[pendell]

It's a good thing I'm not the Giant, because if I was THIS would be strip 870:

Panel 1: Malak monologues about now it is time for Belkar to die blah blah blah. On the right side, we see a soft "clank clank clank" sound.
Panel 2: "Clank clank clank" is now so noticeable Malak looks up.
Panel 3: A platform suspended by a crank lowers with a clunk. A beautiful woman stands on it.
Panel 4: Woman: Hello, I'm the Goddess of Plot. I'm sorry, but Belkar is needed in fifteen strips so I can't let you kill him now.
Panel 5: Woman scoops Belkar onto the platform.
Panel 6: The platform raises into the sky. Malak looks on dumbfounded.
Panel 7: Malak: Now that was completely ...
*Elan obscures the right hand side of the panel* And THIS, readers, is what a Deus Ex Machina looks like!

After all, if the readers are going to complain about Deus Ex Machina on every strip I'd give them the most pointed example I could think of, so that they would know the difference.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[Forikroder]

The question wasn't would he kill, it was would he cause The Death, (i.e. Permanent and Total, like the one the Oracle supposedly is claiming for Belkar), which means the Oracle would have remained dead for this to be a true prophecy. 2) The Oracle was called out on this very prophecy, because it was false, 3) The Oracle then made up a pile of lies, essentially admitting he was a fraud, to try and force a false positive. 4) Since Belkar doesn't even remember the death, it didn't even happen for Belkar... See, any violent act/lethal attack in the boundaries of a city activated the mark, so Death was not required for the Mark, and the Oracle is alive, so this is also a Prophecy that has not come to pass.

no Belakr didnt ask that he only asked if he would get to kill one of them which he did


1) Generic and wrong statement
2) Can't count
3) Doesn't know right from wrong
4) Just another shoehorn to give credence where there is none
So, Fail, not a success

he said 4 words to the demonds for all the wrong reasons and got ultimate arcane power

the giant said himself this was the fullfillment of the prophecy


1) Self-Fufilling Prophecies aren't predictions, I can predict there will be words after this sentence, simply because you already put some that I'm quoting and I will be putting some, doesn't make it a valid prediction. And the Oracle pushed and pushed, lie after lie, which is an admission of guilt and inability to predict the future, to force this result.
2) Knowing Belkar has the mark, knowing who Belkar is, and knowing his prediction has been a failure, all it takes is while the remnants of the Order are going through the tests, to 'sending' the Troglodytes a message of be there in a reasonable time period, and to push Belkar.

except thats not how it works, the Trogs know the exact time that they have to be there the next time the Oracle croaks it and the exact spell to have prepared


And additionally, until they are seen to be true or false, they remain false. Prophecies rely on being seen to be true, as they are repeatedly false until they are true.

In addition, Xykon's was false. The gate Xykon next assaulted was seen, it was not the one the Oracle said. Limited by Roy's restrictions, the correct answer would have been, "Neither, Xykon will attack the tiny little Azurite Gate, in Azure City, you stupid human that thinks you can outsmart the great and mighty Tiamet"

If the Oracle is to make correct predictions, then only the correct answer is the correct answer. Half-wrong is the same as all wrong, it is wrong.

Roy asked that between Girards gate and Kraagars which one would he first go to and the answer was Girards


And the Oracle's own words show he can mess with the future. He could have simply admitted he is a liar and a charlatan, and Belkar probably would have accepted he'd never get to kill any of the list. Only because the Oracle pushed (thereby messing with the future) did he get the death result.

Belkar was going to kill the Oracle no matter what

your also forgetting how the Oracle knew that Ghost Roy was going to come visit and prepared a proper magical item to deal with it

[Friv]

Knowledge of Past is called History, not Predictions, not a Prediction, anyone with proper spells can get this tidbit... For this to be a Prediction, Eugene would have had to have asked before his Master was killed, so not valid.

Again, not a prediction, it is called scrying. And for that matter, he 1) Generalized... it was the equivilant to saying 'at home' 2) Wrong, because Xykon wasn't even "at home" he was "In the study of someone else's work apartment" so this could even be counted AGAINST his skill since he isn't even 2 for 2 at this point on current/past information, let alone predictions



No, he made up a rooster and steer tale that sounds similar, but is not true. This is a confidence man's trick, you give fancy sounding generalizations that can be shoehorned on to the true events, but when you look at the words and the events accurately instead of with the crowbar in hand to force them on, you see they aren't even remotely close to the same meaning.

What he said was literally, "When a genuine blessing arrives, don't pass it up"

What literally happened was "When a threat in disguise tries to screw you over, you will nearly get killed, almost have your life ruined and lose all you care about, only admitting your true feelings will save you, that which you love, and help you overcome your psychosomatic issue with communication"



1) The question wasn't would he kill, it was would he cause The Death, (i.e. Permanent and Total, like the one the Oracle supposedly is claiming for Belkar), which means the Oracle would have remained dead for this to be a true prophecy. 2) The Oracle was called out on this very prophecy, because it was false, 3) The Oracle then made up a pile of lies, essentially admitting he was a fraud, to try and force a false positive. 4) Since Belkar doesn't even remember the death, it didn't even happen for Belkar... See, any violent act/lethal attack in the boundaries of a city activated the mark, so Death was not required for the Mark, and the Oracle is alive, so this is also a Prophecy that has not come to pass.



1) Generic and wrong statement
2) Can't count
3) Doesn't know right from wrong
4) Just another shoehorn to give credence where there is none
So, Fail, not a success


1) as stated before, past knowledge is not a prediction
2) If he saw the above ultimate arcane power, he would have known to tell ABD that it was not in her nor Tiamet's best interest for her to know the killer's name, and for the sake of her descendants and relatives sake, to go mourn her child and accept it is better for Dragonkind if she doesn't pursue this further, keep her money.
3) Tiamet was angry with the IFCC because of what happened due to this prediction, which means she didn't give the Oracle the power to know about it, which means it had nothing to do with his powers.

So this one is not only not a prediction, but is foolish, and in relation to the previous prediction you mentioned, is downright stupid, which the Oracle should have seen... since the Oracle didn't, This actually has to count against the Oracle. Not can, must. This was a critical failure, and lead to a huge loss of Tiamet's children/followers, undermining the power behind the Oracle's power.


1) Self-Fufilling Prophecies aren't predictions, I can predict there will be words after this sentence, simply because you already put some that I'm quoting and I will be putting some, doesn't make it a valid prediction. And the Oracle pushed and pushed, lie after lie, which is an admission of guilt and inability to predict the future, to force this result.
2) Knowing Belkar has the mark, knowing who Belkar is, and knowing his prediction has been a failure, all it takes is while the remnants of the Order are going through the tests, to 'sending' the Troglodytes a message of be there in a reasonable time period, and to push Belkar.


The Ginkgo Bilboa prophecy for Blackwing

And additionally, until they are seen to be true or false, they remain false. Prophecies rely on being seen to be true, as they are repeatedly false until they are true.

In addition, Xykon's was false. The gate Xykon next assaulted was seen, it was not the one the Oracle said. Limited by Roy's restrictions, the correct answer would have been, "Neither, Xykon will attack the tiny little Azurite Gate, in Azure City, you stupid human that thinks you can outsmart the great and mighty Tiamet"

If the Oracle is to make correct predictions, then only the correct answer is the correct answer. Half-wrong is the same as all wrong, it is wrong.




Half right on this part, all the Oracle's predictions fit into the category of Lies, be they in the past, present, or future.




Not seeing it. The successes seem to only come from knowledge of past or present events (which makes him a historian and a scrier, not an Oracle or Seer), or from self-fufilling prophecies.



As Eugene proved, messing with the future works, even if it takes a bit of effort for some people to understand the meaning.

And the Oracle's own words show he can mess with the future. He could have simply admitted he is a liar and a charlatan, and Belkar probably would have accepted he'd never get to kill any of the list. Only because the Oracle pushed (thereby messing with the future) did he get the death result.

In fact, the whole point of an Oracle IS to mess with the future. Otherwise people would just do the stuff they were going to do with no foreknowledge of the events to come and no way to stop them.

The Oracle could have been honest with Belkar from the beginning
He could have been honest with ABD
And he can still be honest with the Ranger

All of which would avert his or other followers of Tiamet's demise. He chooses not to, because he is a liar and a jerk.




No, actually what I'm stating is demonstrably quite correct, once one takes the blinders off and looks clear at the Oracle's lies.

Watch a few episodes of the Mentalist... The Oracle is Patrick Jane before Red John killed his family.

At Best the Oracle is a moderately skilled seer who scries for knowledge and gets some glimpses of the future, but rarely relates them to the customers

More likely the Oracle is an outright charlatan, who can cold read and force self-fufilling prophecies, and has someone scry for him to get knowledge about present/past matters.

Simply put, the combination of ABD's answer (it isn't a prediction, the Oracle didn't warn ABD that V was going to kill her baby before V did), and the alleged successful prediction for V, would not have lead to the IFCC getting calls on lines 2, 3, 5, 8, and 11 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html)

Tiamet gives the Oracle the Prophecies, which means those 3 events could not happen together if the Oracle was a genuine one. Either the events were predestined, and Tiamet knew this, and would not be on those lines, or the events could be changed which would mean the Oracle would have known to tell ABD to not intervene, which means making V's Prophecy never come to be either, or The Oracle couldn't see the future and made up some BS to V which was shoehornable enough that people can deceive themselves to believe three words to no one and a specific action at the wrong time for a mix of right and wrong reasons, is somehow four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reason... while they're similar, they're not the same

"I must succeed" is only three words.
Any shrink will tell you thinking out loud is talking to no one
It was not the right time, when dealing with evil beings, it is the wrong time
And wanting to save your family from a homicidal dragon is not the wrong reasons...

So again, EPIC FAIL on the Oracle's predictions.

Oh, and you're right, the Oracle's predictions are closer to 0% correct.

(I edited the quote to add the spoiler tags, for length purposes).

You seem pretty dedicated to this idea that the Oracle is wrong a lot, given that you've really had to reach to make most of those prophecies incorrect.

You've also kind of redefined a lot of words. "Death" means "dead", it doesn't mean "eternally destroyed forever". Are you arguing that Xykon didn't cause Roy's death?

Self-fulfilling prophecies are, in fact, prophecies. Hence the name.

Most importantly, the Oracle specifically was dodging around Belkar's prophecy because he was trying to evade his death at Belkar's hands, knowing that it would be futile. Similarly, the whole reason he got jumpy when Roy started trying to be cute about his question was because he knew that the answer was going to be correct but not useful, because he knew that Azure City was the next target.

You can't argue that his prophecies aren't true when his knowledge of them coming to pass is specifically what caused many of his actions. You can't argue that "I could totally have broken the unbreakable rules of my prophecies" is a reasonable possibility, and you definitely can't argue that "if you don't remember it happening, it wasn't a prophecy at all".

[Shatteredtower]

I agree on the Deus Ex Machina thing being a bad joke.

On the contrary, it was an excellent jest, superbly set up by Trixie's previous comment. The fact that the Giant insists on seeing it in the worst possible light only serves to enhance the amusement value. If he'd come down on a deus ex machina complaint under any other circumstances, he'd have been golden. When it's for the punchline of a cleric joke, however, the result is slapstick. The author appearing on the forum to address a recurring misconception about his work even feels a bit... nah.

There's nothing remotely deus ex machina about the scene or even the way Trixie described events. The comment serves perfectly well as a jab at the term's overuse on these forums as well as a play on a cleric's role as a... complex instrument of the divine.

I have studied humour since I first began to read, which should tell you that I have no sense of it whatsoever. It did, however, direct me to Stephen Leacock's essays, one of which notes that one of the things most likely to offend a person is the implication that they've no sense of humour -- and that this is doubly true for humourists. This is why, "It was just a joke," is such a popular argument on forums: not because that excuses the original comment, but because of how easily it can knock those who objected to it off center.

Maybe I'm giving Trixie too much credit. I also agree that constant accusations of deus ex machina are more insult than criticism. On the other hand, the Giant isn't a mind-reader either. He's no more qualified to tell us what Trixie meant than anyone who said, "I'm pretty sure that was a joke."

Likewise, I can't tell whether Harr's comment ("Can't believe I'm explaining this btw") is closer to bewilderment or contempt, but how is the Giant's, "It's not even that hard to figure out," any different? I don't see it, though it could very well be obvious to everyone else.

[Snails]

This comic definitively clears up any misconceptions that our albino reptile friend is Lawful Neutral. His religion mandates he personally kill any whom he would see dead; there is no more wiggle room. Malak is evil.

I am strongly of the opinion that Malack is most likely evil (although we do not actually know at this point). However, I do not think this argument holds water.

The question is what "any whom he would see dead" really means. It has enough wiggle room for a Paladin work with.

[Kish]

You know I have been thinking about this for a while, what if it just means that Belkar would be put into such a state that he no longer needs to breath to live?
Still doesn't fit "not long for the world."

[pendell]

I am strongly of the opinion that Malack is most likely evil (although we do not actually know at this point). However, I do not think this argument holds water.

The question is what "any whom he would see dead" really means. It has enough wiggle room for a Paladin work with.

I agree. I suspect it is more along the lines of "Do your own killing, don't palm it off on others."

Reading this and other clues, I suspect that Nergal and Malak are both Lawful neutral. This is why both Nergal and Malak find the undead to be distasteful -- to them Death is the ultimate judge and the final arbiter, and any attempt to evade it is a crime. So to them either resurrection or animate dead would be detestable.

Malak, being a priest of death, believes that there are people in the world who must die. And if this is the case, it is his job to do it himself. A man -- or lizard , in this case -- ought to shoot his own dog.

This would explain why Malak is able to befriend both Durkon and Tarquin. Durkon is Lawful Good. Tarquin is Lawful Evil. Malak as lawful neutral and, as such, is close enough that he can deal with both without the discomfort he would feel with someone like Belkar, his polar opposite on the alignment chart even if they are allies within the same party.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Snails]

That's pretty likely. But if I were Malack I would still have a plan to kill Nale if Tarquin's plans "evolve". Is it beyond belief that Tarquin would find a way to spirit Nale away, for the sake of filial affection or narrative structure, in such a way that Malack thinks Nale escaped on his own?

Oh, definitely. Tarquin is not going to directly violate his implied promise, but he is most certainly one to pull strings to help Nale find a way to escape.

Furthermore, we should consider the make up of the Linear Guild. Nale can call on Sable (eventually) and the Drow to back him up, plus maybe Qarr (whom he might hope would obey the Drow). Malack can call on Tarquin and an accountant.

Malack may be able to take Nale in any fair fight, but Malack cannot expect to control the decisive moment of confrontation, before Nale makes an escape attempt. The field is stacked against him.

Malack needs secret allies desperately.

[oppyu]

Knowledge of Past is called History, not Predictions, not a Prediction, anyone with proper spells can get this tidbit... For this to be a Prediction, Eugene would have had to have asked before his Master was killed, so not valid.

Ok, so the Oracle isn't an Oracle, they're a moderate-to-high level spellcaster? Seems unlikely, but I don't have the D&D knowledge to disprove anything so I'll let that point pass.


Again, not a prediction, it is called scrying. And for that matter, he 1) Generalized... it was the equivilant to saying 'at home' 2) Wrong, because Xykon wasn't even "at home" he was "In the study of someone else's work apartment" so this could even be counted AGAINST his skill since he isn't even 2 for 2 at this point on current/past information, let alone predictions

Durkon and Roy threatened a third question after that one, and since it led to the Order of the Stick locating and (temporarily) defeating Xykon, I'll assume that it was good.


No, he made up a rooster and steer tale that sounds similar, but is not true. This is a confidence man's trick, you give fancy sounding generalizations that can be shoehorned on to the true events, but when you look at the words and the events accurately instead of with the crowbar in hand to force them on, you see they aren't even remotely close to the same meaning.

What he said was literally, "When a genuine blessing arrives, don't pass it up"

What literally happened was "When a threat in disguise tries to screw you over, you will nearly get killed, almost have your life ruined and lose all you care about, only admitting your true feelings will save you, that which you love, and help you overcome your psychosomatic issue with communication"

It is possible that, on top of being a moderate-to-high level spellcaster, this prediction was also a horoscope-like guess that happened to come true in a roundabout way. Add that to the list of contrivances that have occurred to justify your assertion that Oracle is not an Oracle.


1) The question wasn't would he kill, it was would he cause The Death, (i.e. Permanent and Total, like the one the Oracle supposedly is claiming for Belkar), which means the Oracle would have remained dead for this to be a true prophecy. 2) The Oracle was called out on this very prophecy, because it was false, 3) The Oracle then made up a pile of lies, essentially admitting he was a fraud, to try and force a false positive. 4) Since Belkar doesn't even remember the death, it didn't even happen for Belkar... See, any violent act/lethal attack in the boundaries of a city activated the mark, so Death was not required for the Mark, and the Oracle is alive, so this is also a Prophecy that has not come to pass.

Er... no. Belkar killed the Oracle, he caused the death of the Oracle. You can't give 'the death' a fancy new meaning that supports your view; only politicians get to do that.



1) Generic and wrong statement
2) Can't count
3) Doesn't know right from wrong
4) Just another shoehorn to give credence where there is none
So, Fail, not a success

1) Correctly identified the number of words. "I... I must succeed."
2) See: 1
3) huh?
4) Just another shoehorn to disprove credence where the evidence suggests there is... credence. That sentence structure didn't really work for my point.



1) as stated before, past knowledge is not a prediction
2) If he saw the above ultimate arcane power, he would have known to tell ABD that it was not in her nor Tiamet's best interest for her to know the killer's name, and for the sake of her descendants and relatives sake, to go mourn her child and accept it is better for Dragonkind if she doesn't pursue this further, keep her money.
3) Tiamet was angry with the IFCC because of what happened due to this prediction, which means she didn't give the Oracle the power to know about it, which means it had nothing to do with his powers.

So this one is not only not a prediction, but is foolish, and in relation to the previous prediction you mentioned, is downright stupid, which the Oracle should have seen... since the Oracle didn't, This actually has to count against the Oracle. Not can, must. This was a critical failure, and lead to a huge loss of Tiamet's children/followers, undermining the power behind the Oracle's power.

At no point have we seen the Oracle show agency to in any way better the lives of his clients, aside from answering their questions to the letter. Maybe he can't, maybe he chooses not to, but to say that because he didn't go out of his way to act on behalf of his supposed deity he must be a fraud is a bit much. And really, you have a lot invested in the theory that he can use a munchkin-like set of spells to mimic omni... whatever the omni-knowing and seeing all one is. Omnipresent? Is that it?



1) Self-Fufilling Prophecies aren't predictions, I can predict there will be words after this sentence, simply because you already put some that I'm quoting and I will be putting some, doesn't make it a valid prediction. And the Oracle pushed and pushed, lie after lie, which is an admission of guilt and inability to predict the future, to force this result.
2) Knowing Belkar has the mark, knowing who Belkar is, and knowing his prediction has been a failure, all it takes is while the remnants of the Order are going through the tests, to 'sending' the Troglodytes a message of be there in a reasonable time period, and to push Belkar.

Remember that the Oracle predicted, pretty accurately, what time Haley and co would arrive at the tower. So even if he goaded Belkar into killing him so he could prove his powers to... Haley and Celia? The audience? He would still have had to guess when the group would arrive.


His ability to predict what time the group arrived is shown by the clerics arriving shortly after Belkar murdered him, and having a week-old town ready to set off Belkar's mark of justice. (Which I'm guessing he learned about through his 'knowing everything, including Azure state secrets', right?)

In addition, Xykon's was false. The gate Xykon next assaulted was seen, it was not the one the Oracle said. Limited by Roy's restrictions, the correct answer would have been, "Neither, Xykon will attack the tiny little Azurite Gate, in Azure City, you stupid human that thinks you can outsmart the great and mighty Tiamet"

If the Oracle is to make correct predictions, then only the correct answer is the correct answer. Half-wrong is the same as all wrong, it is wrong.

Remember, the Oracle clearly knew that Xykon wasn't attacking those two gates next, as he tried to help Roy ask the right question to get the right answer. When Roy persisted with his stupid question, the Oracle had no choice but to answer it.

Final points; Oracle has two more points in the 'not a fake' column.

1) Talking to garbled!Haley by either using another set of spells (with generous interpretations of the rules to suit the 'fraud' assertion) or, I don't know, being an Oracle.
2) [To Roy and Elan] "...and the two of you are running late for a pair of family reunions." ie: Julia Greenhilt and Nale, in the Linear Guild Round 2 arc.

Summary: You've invested a lot of time into twisting events, D&D rules and word definitions to support your theory that the Kobold Oracle is a fake, but I'm just not seeing it. Sorry. (In case you couldn't tell, I'm not actually sorry, I'm actually annoyed at myself for spending this much time contributing to an one of the many insane oots theories, but since I've written it all out I may as well press 'Submit Reply'.

[Forikroder]

I agree. I suspect it is more along the lines of "Do your own killing, don't palm it off on others."

Reading this and other clues, I suspect that Nergal and Malak are both Lawful neutral. This is why both Nergal and Malak find the undead to be distasteful -- to them Death is the ultimate judge and the final arbiter, and any attempt to evade it is a crime. So to them either resurrection or animate dead would be detestable.

Malak, being a priest of death, believes that there are people in the world who must die. And if this is the case, it is his job to do it himself. A man -- or lizard , in this case -- ought to shoot his own dog.

This would explain why Malak is able to befriend both Durkon and Tarquin. Durkon is Lawful Good. Tarquin is Lawful Evil. Malak as lawful neutral and, as such, is close enough that he can deal with both without the discomfort he would feel with someone like Belkar, his polar opposite on the alignment chart even if they are allies within the same party.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

i dont Nergul is against the undead, if he was then Malack wouldnt think taht Nergal sent him a sign to raise the dead

also the corpses arent actualyl cheating death there jsut puppets with no soul why would Nergal care if bodies get reanimated as long as the souls of the actual people remain where they belong?

[Snails]

also the corpses arent actualyl cheating death there jsut puppets with no soul why would Nergal care if bodies get reanimated as long as the souls of the actual people remain where they belong?

It is a controversial topic amongst everyone, including ruleslawyers.

First of all, the rules as written are about as unambiguous on these things as can be expected to be: animation of Undead appears to "always" be an evil act.

Second of all, some make the very rational argument that you do.

My opinion is that whether an action is evil may involve some amount of aesthetics. It is obvious that, in some fashion and to some degree, undeath is against the "natural order of things", the cycle of life and death in particular. Furthermore, I would add that in very many Real World religious and mythical systems, to treat the physical body less than respectfully is an obstacle for the soul/spirit to move on. From this point of view, doing weird things to a body is sacrilegious, because undeath is victimizing a helpless soul by treating the body as a simple object of no importance.

My personal opinion is that clerics of a god of death would despise undead, as they "should" be champions of the cycle of life and death. It appears that most authors of D&D material are in a very different camp, as it is quite common for clerics of a death god to be associated with undead in written material.

That is what it is.

I would also add that it appears the Giant is more likely to fall into the second camp. Whether that is a personal opinion is less clear: as the OotSverse is in some important ways emulating the feel of a D&D campaign, it would be logical to go with the flow and do what most D&D authors do here.

[Toofey]

I feel sad for mr scruffy.

[Math_Mage]

Why are you still quoting the liar, whose prophecies to do with Belkar have never come true?

Why are you quoting the guy who hasn't even had a 50% success rate from things we've seen?

Why are you quoting the guy who doesn't prevent his own deaths, and takes level loss, over, and over again, rather then be honest?

Why are you quoting the guy who doesn't prevent events that will anger his deity, despite the fact his prophecies come from that deity?

Seriously, forget the Oracle's prophecies, they don't matter, they've never mattered, and they've all be lies or half-truths.

Belkar is a chef, he can make a cake whenever he want, so let me explain this real simply for you...

The Oracle's cake prophecy is a lie

Belkar is short, in a world of sticks... he has never been 'long' so he is not long for this world is a height joke.

And it is never said he will breath his last breath, ever... it is he will draw his last breath... Last Breath Ever will be a magical weapon that he will draw, and will be his.

In a world of D&D, where the Oracle makes distorted prophecies, you have to stop looking literally, and start looking for the warped DM's dirty trick play on words interpretations.

-----------------------------------------

It is silly, people are so fixated on Belkar's death, that they see death around every corner for him.

Look, new Kobold, this one will kill Belkar.

Look, Belkar let a Dinosaur loose, the Dino will eat Belkar.

Look, Belkar ate spice, he's going to die of an oversdose.

Look, Belkar didn't die of an overdose, but the worms are drawn to the spice, the worms will eat Belkar.

Look, a pebble, Belkar is going to trip over it and break his neck.

Look, an ambiguous drop of ink, it must be the black spot, and Belkar is marked for death.

Look, Belkar is in a Panel, this must be the moment when Belkar will eat his cake, draw his last breath ever, and be not long for this world.


Seriously, it is just plain pathetic. I have a prediction, Belkar will be alive in the next Panel we see him in. Now, if I'm right, I ask politely that everyone who has predicted Belkar's demise accept that I am a better Oracle, and forget the Oracle prophecies until either the series ends or Belkar actually dies. Until then, don't mention them, don't look for Belkar's death, the absurdity of trying to predict a death that isn't happening when you predicted it would happen is annoying, because so far... I keep predicting that these won't be his deaths when others have said he will die. Everyone who has said a 'This is when Belkar is going to die' has had a 100% failure rate, I have had a 100% success rate... so I think I've earned the honor of saying...

:belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue:
Belkar isn't going to die this time.
:belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue: :belkar::tongue:

You're funny.

I'm not going to engage with any of your ludicrous assertions about the Oracle. Instead, I'll just point out one thing to you:

The reason you see so many predictions of Belkar's death in trivial incidents is because it only takes one person on the forum to make a prediction about it. The ratio of people who actually think that incident will lead to Belkar's death may be one in a thousand or less, and it will still get posted. If you're proud of generally being one of the nine hundred and ninety-nine, you should keep in mind that it will take nearly a thousand such instances for you to even be in the minority.

Don't flatter yourself; you are not remarkable in predicting Belkar's survival to this point. You are only remarkable in that you are willing to abandon logic in defense of the claim that Belkar will survive to the end of the comic.

[Mister Non PC]

Ooooh. Mr. Scruffy is about to get medieval on Malack.

[rewinn]

It's a good thing I'm not the Giant, because if I was THIS would be strip 870:

Panel 1: Malak monologues about now it is time for Belkar to die blah blah blah. On the right side, we see a soft "clank clank clank" sound.
Panel 2: "Clank clank clank" is now so noticeable Malak looks up.
Panel 3: A platform suspended by a crank lowers with a clunk. A beautiful woman stands on it.
Panel 4: Woman: Hello, I'm the Goddess of Plot. I'm sorry, but Belkar is needed in fifteen strips so I can't let you kill him now.
Panel 5: Woman scoops Belkar onto the platform.
Panel 6: The platform raises into the sky. Malak looks on dumbfounded.
Panel 7: Malak: Now that was completely ...
*Elan obscures the right hand side of the panel* And THIS, readers, is what a Deus Ex Machina looks like!

After all, if the readers are going to complain about Deus Ex Machina on every strip I'd give them the most pointed example I could think of, so that they would know the difference.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.
OK, you wins an internets.
That was both funny AND cool!

---

Ya know, now that Belkar is Held, Malack gets to decide what's the most efficient use of him. Isn't there some sort of Geas spell that would compel Belkar to use his Tracking ability to help Malack find Tarquin? Surely a living high-level Ranger would have better Tracking than any sort of undead!

[theNater]

Just wanted to throw my two cents onto a couple of Sweet_Goddess' comments. Most of what needs to be said has been covered by other posters.

No, he made up a rooster and steer tale that sounds similar, but is not true. This is a confidence man's trick, you give fancy sounding generalizations that can be shoehorned on to the true events, but when you look at the words and the events accurately instead of with the crowbar in hand to force them on, you see they aren't even remotely close to the same meaning.

What he said was literally, "When a genuine blessing arrives, don't pass it up"

What literally happened was "When a threat in disguise tries to screw you over, you will nearly get killed, almost have your life ruined and lose all you care about, only admitting your true feelings will save you, that which you love, and help you overcome your psychosomatic issue with communication"
While this misunderstanding of looking gift horses in mouths is hilarious, it is still less hilarious than a claim I recall from some time ago that this prophecy was false because there was no actual horse involved.

I have a prediction, Belkar will be alive in the next Panel we see him in.

And additionally, until they are seen to be true or false, they remain false. Prophecies rely on being seen to be true, as they are repeatedly false until they are true.
By your own definition, you have given a false prophecy. Why would you do that?

[urandom]

I'm going to throw in a prediction: when Malack attempts to slit Belkar's throat Mr Scruffy intervenes. Malack killing or attempting to kill Mr Scruffy acts as an actual reason for fighting and Belkar breaks free from hold person (which he gets to attempt each turn). What happens after that I'm not sure.

[natrl20]

So what, we're supposed to believe that the list only including Azurites is coincidence? :smalltongue:

Good point. also? those are all one-arc B-listers: introduced to be destroyed in interesting ways.
Belkar is an A-Lister by any standards. Roy and Haley, for example, are solid, likeable characters, but Belkar carries more comedic weight by far. And... this is a funny comic, remember (moments of crushingly dark tragedy notwithstanding)?:smallredface:

[sam79]

I'm going to throw in a prediction: when Malack attempts to slit Belkar's throat Mr Scruffy intervenes. Malack killing or attempting to kill Mr Scruffy acts as an actual reason for fighting and Belkar breaks free from hold person (which he gets to attempt each turn). What happens after that I'm not sure.

For what it's worth*, I think that's a good shout. I would be very sad if Mr. Scruffy dies though...



*=not much, probably. I've got to cough up a lizard-folk skull accessory for betting on Belkar in another thread.

[Tom Lehmann]

I really liked how the tails were artistically handled in this strip; both Malack's and Mr. Scruffy's tails are portrayed as being constantly in motion, flicking from side to side. For example, in panel 6, Malack's tail has flicked to his left (so it can't be seen by the viewer), while in the final panel, it has flicked to his right.

I recently reread Dungeon Crawlin' Fools (which was redrawn for book publication) and still the evolution between its art and the current strips is very striking. Rich keeps adding more details and gradually extending his art style. Very nice! Keep up the good work. It is appreciated.

[Sweet_Goddess]

Just wanted to throw my two cents onto a couple of Sweet_Goddess' comments. Most of what needs to be said has been covered by other posters.

While this misunderstanding of looking gift horses in mouths is hilarious, it is still less hilarious than a claim I recall from some time ago that this prophecy was false because there was no actual horse involved.


By your own definition, you have given a false prophecy. Why would you do that?

Actually, no, my prediction is set in one action, and in fact only requires you to find a panel with Belkar in it... since he has never died, the next panel we see him in, until a new panel with him is made, will always be one he is alive in.

I didn't say the next NEW Panel we see him in, I said the next panel we see him in.

Now, people keep missing this point, so I'm going to clarify.

it is called operative word.

Belkar's question is 'Will in cause the death...'

The is singular, final, only, unique, it is what everyone keeps expecting for Belkar, many people have pointed out he can have many deaths, be rezed, and have another death, so each of those would be a death, until he has the death that is the one the prophecy is about.

Those people seem to grasp the difference between a death and the death.

Belkar has cause a death of the Oracle, not the death of the Oracle.

The question was never, 'Will I cause a death of one of the following:' it was 'Will I cause the death'

I didn't redefine death and dead, D&D did that with raise dead, resurrection, reincarnation, and various other way to make someone have more then one death, requiring the use of a to mean one of many, and the for only a death that is final.

----------------------------------------------

To the remark on the Oracle being dodgy, that is just the issue, had the Oracle not been dodgy, he would not have died. Honest in the beginning would have been a simple, "No, you won't" instead of a "Yes" which means he wouldn't have had to justify his lies later.

------------------------------------------------

Actually, by the rules of his valley, you only remember the prophecy... which means his preparedness for Roy was a failure, since he thought Roy would forget, and Belkar not remembering the death means the Prophecy was not remembered, therefore it was not (and here is that operative word again) the Prophecy.

The only argument is that the "Will a cause the death..." prophecy request has not been fufilled, which once more leads us to a prophecy failure.

-------------------------------------------------

Again, locating something present doesn't require great spell casting, or even high levels. Crystal Balls, which it seems are purchasable in HD and Widescreen in OotS-Verse, so locating Xykon, for a guy who is getting wealthy off lies, is not even a challenge.

Also, note the Oracle's comment to ABD, he dismissed Roy as "Thinking the campaign revolves around him", which, seeing as the comic does revolve around the Order, and by extension Roy, the Leader of the Order, does mean the campaign revolves around him. The Oracle answered Haley by using 4th Wall Breach Vision to read the translations from the War and XPs... even admitted to it. Haley meanwhile climbed out of the comic and retrieved the diamond from Cast of Character's page... 4th wall breaching is not even Oracle exclusive...

I don't have to try hard to bring up points that show the Oracle's lies. I just have to observe his actions and see he is lying.

-----------------------------------------------

And no one has yet to address, why would Tiamet, who is the voice speaking through the Oracle, call the IFCC about events that the Oracle and Tiamet set in motion... oh, wait, that's right, because the Oracle is a crook and a liar, with, as Roy put it, 'Dramatic Lighting'.

The Oracle admitting to Durkon, this is how he gets rich, not by actually using any ability to see the future, but by making a fortune off people who think he can see the future.

The Oracle claimed the spell on the valley is to protect from his ramblings... he then mentions the IRA and Birthday cake... which, by the way, aren't predictions... they're threats... The Oracle is a Kobold, Belkar kills Kobolds, Belkar's picture is probably on a wanted poster as 'Kobold Public Enemy #s 1-42', every Kobold (Yokyok) and their father(Yikyik), brother(Yukyuk), sister(Yykyyk), mother(Yekyek), and cousins (Yakyak the rambling Oracle and Kilkil), wants him dead, and intents to kill him, they figure sooner or later one of them will do it, and keep trying, and all expect one of them will suceed, so of course he won't need an IRA... Now the real reason the Oracle wants people to only remember the predictions, is because he makes various dumb remarks that further prove he's a charlatan, and if they remembered that he lied, swindled, tricked, deceived, or however you want to word it, then he'd lose his income coming to him... if he could see the future, as Durkon pointed out, he could invest or gamble and not need to hide behind magic spells to wipe memories nor need people to resurrect him.

He was out for Xykon, why wouldn't he just be out for the Order, or half the Order, or the Druid, or anyone else who might kill him? Because he doesn't see the future.

Now, as for the Druid... perfect proof... he know currently that the Druid's animal companion is cheating on him, he knows the Druid's personality, when it is nearly the date of his prediction, that he will make happen, he will send a message to the Druid that he has news of the Druid's wife's infidelities, Druid, being the jealous type, rushes to the Oracle, Oracle gets the Druid into a Frenzy, then stalls til it is nearly time, then tells him, knowing by how the Druid acts that the Druid will kill him, prophecy fulfilled, Druid rushes off to deal with the knowledge, Trogs show up, Oracle gets rezzed.

The reason is, now the Druid and the Trogs both think the Oracle knows his stuff and can see the future.

------------------------------

No, a self fulfilling prophecy isn't a real prophecy, because you're not actually predicting something, you are simply narrating what you're going to do or bug someone else to do.

I predict someone will argue on a forum.

Now... try to prove me wrong, go ahead, try to prove me wrong, all you have to do to prove me wrong is never argue again... but you see, this is how a self-fulfilling prophecy works, I put you in a situation where your choices are to accept I am right, or prove me right by doing what I want you to do. Doesn't make me precognitive nor an Oracle, just makes me able to do the same stuff the 'Oracle' can do. Make up something, then set things so someone else has to do it, whether they want to or not.

See, my statement is one that can only be proven wrong by literally everyone choosing to never argue, I chose my words so I can point at any argument and say, "Aha, I was right."

Why am I explaining this? Because it just encourages someone to argue with me, and prove me right. Which is all the Oracle did when Belkar showed up.

Everyone assumes Belkar was going to kill him no matter what, but evidence actually was slanted to him not. He had to deal with caring for Mr. Scruffy, and just like with Roy, Haley wouldn't have just let him kill the Oracle... the Oracle kept pushing, piling lie onto lie, twisting his words any way he could, so Belkar would stab him.

If the Oracle knew that no matter what he said, Belkar was going to kill him, he would have said simply, "Yes, and you're about to do it." and gotten it over with... his attempts to avoid his death prove he believed that either prophecies aren't set in stone, and he could avoid it (which means he could have just said No in the first place) or that he knew it was a lie from square one, and knew his reputation was suddenly ruined because he was too hateful toward a Halfling.

[rgrekejin]

Belkar has cause a death of the Oracle, not the death of the Oracle.

The question was never, 'Will I cause a death of one of the following:' it was 'Will I cause the death'

I didn't redefine death and dead, D&D did that with raise dead, resurrection, reincarnation, and various other way to make someone have more then one death, requiring the use of a to mean one of many, and the for only a death that is final.


Why am I explaining this? Because it just encourages someone to argue with me, and prove me right. Which is all the Oracle did when Belkar showed up.

Either that prophecy was fulfilled or it wasn't. You can't have it both ways. Either Belkar *has* caused "the death" of the Oracle, or that *wasn't* a self-fulfilling prophecy, on the grounds that it hasn't been fulfilled. You can't maintain that it both was and wasn't fulfilled whenever one is more convenient for your argument than the other.

Also, we have Word of the Giant that "I... I must succeed." *was* the fulfilment of V's prophecy. In fact, the Giant talks at some length about the Oracle's prophecies in the commentary of one of the books (I believe it is "Don't Split the Party"). If the Oracle is in fact just a liar, you should probably tell Rich. He doesn't seem to be aware of it.

Also, your definition of "the" is too narrow.

the -

1. Denoting one or more people or things already mentioned or assumed to be common knowledge: "what's the matter?"; "call the doctor".

2. Used to refer to a person, place, or thing that is unique: "the Queen"; "the Mona Lisa"; "the Nile".

As you can see, the *can* mean what you say it does, but it most certainly doesn't have to.

[Friv]

SweetGoddess, you may need to look up Occam's Razor here. With the options being a series of extremely convoluted ploys that are not alluded to in the plot, and also the author directly and repeatedly lying to the readerbase on one hand, or everything shown being true on the other hand, I can tell you which is more likely.

But on the other hand, a lot of that last post was comedy gold, so please continue!

[Adeptus]

I don't want to feed the frenzy too much but Sweet_Goddess, consider this.

The oracle didn't see the future as such, he just answered Belkar's question with the clairvoyance given to him by Tiamat. "Is Belkar going to get to cause the death of..."

He could infallibly answer that question, and did. It doesn't mean he knew what exactly would happen. Eventually, he did the routine scrying about his own death, and arranged for the res. Actually even that can have been arranged before time, now knowing that it had anything to do with Belkar as such.

You see, being able to make infallible prophecies doesn't mean you are omnicient regarding anything asked, or much less about everything, period. The oracle has a very specific power to answer questions presented to him while he does that impressive looking trance. It is not a limitless power he trivially uses to know everything.

[glissle]

You realise that using logic won't work here? Even when Belkar dies there will be people who are insisting that doesn't mean the Oracle's prophecy was correct, no matter what!
Or that the Oracle didn't deliver a real prophecy (if I recall correctly, it was a freebie, not a response to a question), but created a self-fulfilling one to avenge his own upcoming death. If the party leader thinks your death is inevitable, your death is more likely, isn't it?

(I personally think it was a real prophecy.)


I've thought of a loophole, though it doesn't address the IRA comment:
The astral plane has appeared in the comic, and apparently people don't breathe or age there.

So we could see Belkar end up there, teasing that he would escape death, but then die anyway.

[SaintRidley]

The is singular, final, only, unique

I guess somebody needs to alert all the people who use "the" before plural nouns.

Please, tell me more about how words work.

[Burner28]

I do think that Belkar genuinely cares for Mr. Scruffy. But I don't think he actually understands why good people defend others (and not only those they care about). I believe he sees it only as a good way to get dramatic bonuses. Malack wasn't about to attack Mr. Scruffy, after all.

Pretty much this. He did admit he only said that because people who says that line gets an advantage.

[Math_Mage]

Now, people keep missing this point, so I'm going to clarify.

it is called operative word.

Belkar's question is 'Will in cause the death...'

The is singular, final, only, unique, it is what everyone keeps expecting for Belkar, many people have pointed out he can have many deaths, be rezed, and have another death, so each of those would be a death, until he has the death that is the one the prophecy is about.

Those people seem to grasp the difference between a death and the death.

Belkar has cause a death of the Oracle, not the death of the Oracle.

The question was never, 'Will I cause a death of one of the following:' it was 'Will I cause the death'

I didn't redefine death and dead, D&D did that with raise dead, resurrection, reincarnation, and various other way to make someone have more then one death, requiring the use of a to mean one of many, and the for only a death that is final.

I will cause the awakening of my roommate by screaming in his ear, and by so doing ensure that he shall never again awaken. After all, 'the' can only refer to events that happen once, right?

I guess Xykon didn't cause the death of Roy, either.

Besides, you know who gets to interpret the meaning of 'the' in the sentence asked? The Oracle, not you.

Oh, by the way, if the Oracle can't predict anything, why was he able to set up the village of lickmyorangeballshalfling before Belkar showed up to kill him? Even if you postulate that he was able to magically detect the Mark of Justice, he wouldn't have known its function.

[Sweet_Goddess]

I guess somebody needs to alert all the people who use "the" before plural nouns.

Please, tell me more about how words work.

They're not calls an Order of the Stick

It isn't a Scribble

it isn't a Monster in the Darkness

The People is a The Plural of The Person.

The Chosen One from The Chosen People...

The before a singular word implies that there is no other...

Watch the Matrix... we see many children with abilities in THE Oracle's apartment, on the screens in THE Architect's Office are many Neos... but no matter how many version of THE Matrix, THE Chosen One is always Neo... The Architect is always The Architect, The Oracle is always The Oracle.

The denotes a specific, not a general... the US isn't run by The Presidents or A President, it is run by The President, this is to keep anyone with the title of President from just walking up and saying, "Hey, I'm President Glen Hetrick, I'm vetoing this bill and appointing this guy to be a Supreme Court Justice"... Glen Hetrick is A President, but he can't do that, because he is not THE President.

The is a distinction, it is final, it is not just any other, it is the.


Either that prophecy was fulfilled or it wasn't. You can't have it both ways. Either Belkar *has* caused "the death" of the Oracle, or that *wasn't* a self-fulfilling prophecy, on the grounds that it hasn't been fulfilled. You can't maintain that it both was and wasn't fulfilled whenever one is more convenient for your argument than the other.

Also, we have Word of the Giant that "I... I must succeed." *was* the fulfilment of V's prophecy. In fact, the Giant talks at some length about the Oracle's prophecies in the commentary of one of the books (I believe it is "Don't Split the Party"). If the Oracle is in fact just a liar, you should probably tell Rich. He doesn't seem to be aware of it.

Also, your definition of "the" is too narrow.

the -

1. Denoting one or more people or things already mentioned or assumed to be common knowledge: "what's the matter?"; "call the doctor".

2. Used to refer to a person, place, or thing that is unique: "the Queen"; "the Mona Lisa"; "the Nile".

As you can see, the *can* mean what you say it does, but it most certainly doesn't have to.

1 and 2 are the same

The Doctor or the Queen isn't just any Queen or Doctor... When you say, call the Doctor, you don't mean Call Dr. Phil or Dr. Pepper, you mean The Doctor, THE one Doctor you would call, not just any doctor. When most people talk about The Queen, they don't mean Queen Latifah or Ru Paul, they mean Queen Elisabeth the II, the Queen, she is THE only one, there is not other... as long as she lives, she is THE Queen, notice her son is not King Charles, he is still Prince, and he isn't even The Prince... his eldest son, William Arthur Philip Louis, is The Prince, while Charles and Harry are each a Prince (as are Edward and Andrew). The is very specific... obviously The Death for Belkar will not be The Death for Thekla... but The Death of Thekla was a pretty big deal.

And you still don't get this... a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy is a lie, it is a deception, it isn't a true Prophecy because you're not predicting it, you're deciding it then pretending to Predict it.

Belkar has yet to cause THE Death of the Oracle, the Oracle tricked Belkar into causing A Death... the issue is people continue to use that Death as proof of the Oracle's infallibility.

Speaking of which...


I don't want to feed the frenzy too much but Sweet_Goddess, consider this.

The oracle didn't see the future as such, he just answered Belkar's question with the clairvoyance given to him by Tiamat. "Is Belkar going to get to cause the death of..."

He could infallibly answer that question, and did. It doesn't mean he knew what exactly would happen. Eventually, he did the routine scrying about his own death, and arranged for the res. Actually even that can have been arranged before time, now knowing that it had anything to do with Belkar as such.

You see, being able to make infallible prophecies doesn't mean you are omnicient regarding anything asked, or much less about everything, period. The oracle has a very specific power to answer questions presented to him while he does that impressive looking trance. It is not a limitless power he trivially uses to know everything.

Except the Oracle makes most of his comments about Belkar's alleged demise out of the Trance... Cake, IRA, Long for this world, all done out of Trance... so that means if we consider only the Trance valid, those need never be mentioned, as they're just off handed comments that are meant to incite Belkar and Roy. That leaves 'Draw his last Breath, ever' 'by the years end', and wait, the Oracle didn't actually say the fact about "in-comic year" vs "real-time year" in the green prophecy text, so that too is invalidated...

See... everyone who comes up with an excuse for the Oracle has to sacrifice something, either you have to say he can't change things... which means his comments to try to stop Belkar are pointless as well as doesn't explain Tiamet's rage at the IFCC... or he only is infallible in trance... which eliminates the in-comic time, cake, IRA, and long for this world issues... You know, it is pointless to even go through all the arguments for the Oracle...

----------------------------------------

And there is no need to argue with Rich. Rich is doing this right, he is handing you a liar on a silver platter, hinting everywhere he is a liar, showing you that even a charlatan can get it right if you twist the words just right, and enjoying us discussing and so many people jumping at shadows and 'seeing Belkar's demise'.

Rich has either given us the death scene, the death of Old Belkar, and the evolution to New Belkar... has THE dramatic Death of Belkar planned for when everyone has finally stopped expecting it around every turn... or intends to do the big reveal at the end that the Death was always a red herring... no matter which way it is...

See, if Rich really had an issue with my statement, Rich probably would say something. But Rich is an exceptional writer and understands that controversy is good for business. Anyone who thinks Rich making the Oracle a conman and a liar, makes Rich a liar, has serious issues with understanding.

Is J.K. Rowling a liar for having Dumbledore deceive the readers and students since book 1?

Is George Lucas a liar for having Obi-wan tell Luke that Darth Vader killed his father?

Is Stan Lee a liar for having Uncle Ben tell Peter 'With Great Power comes Great Responisibility'?

Just cause the truth isn't always what you're lead to believe, doesn't make the author a liar, it just means you didn't read between the lines enough, and missed the hints.

---------------------------


I will cause the awakening of my roommate by screaming in his ear, and by so doing ensure that he shall never again awaken. After all, 'the' can only refer to events that happen once, right?

I guess Xykon didn't cause the death of Roy, either.

Besides, you know who gets to interpret the meaning of 'the' in the sentence asked? The Oracle, not you.

Oh, by the way, if the Oracle can't predict anything, why was he able to set up the village of lickmyorangeballshalfling before Belkar showed up to kill him? Even if you postulate that he was able to magically detect the Mark of Justice, he wouldn't have known its function.

No, see, you didn't cause The awakening of your roomate, the awakening of your roomate would be a spiritual enlightenment, and once it happened, your roommate would be awakened and no longer be unenlightened, so could never be awakened again

If you awoke your roommate, it is just an awakening, not The awakening...

No, THE job of an Oracle isn't to interpret, THE Job of an Oracle is to tell the future...

This Oracle can read the translations and talk to the audience, if he can use a simple scrying device to see stuff around the planet, so he can see the present, why wouldn't he be able to see into the Throne Room and see and hear the exact stipulations of the Mark of Justice? Anyone who can scry could have done that. Which also explains why there isn't a count of how many Kobolds are in the village, and is 'Just Enough', as in he invited as many Kobolds were willing to move there for free, just to hurt and hopefully kill Kobold Public Enemy #1(through #42... because that is how dangerous Belkar is).

See, most people who quote about Occam's Razor really don't realize that it includes "The simplest available theory need not be most accurate.", it is just a tendency to usually be correct.

So, let's see...

Which is Simpler

Oracle is always right, except when he isn't, but we can excuse that, cause we can ignore that most of his most accurate stuff has nothing to do with the future, and he makes off handed comments that may or may not pertain to an actual prophecy, who uses a amnesia spell to cover up him giving out more information then was paid for.

or

Oracle is a liar and a conman, who uses generalizations, and uses easily attainable magical items to supplement the appearance of accuracy, and uses an amnesia spell to cover up mistakes and his more blatantly obvious deceptions.

You're right, even though Occam's Razor is, in scientific method, not considered an irrefutable principle of logic or a scientific result, let's go with the simpler answer... Oracle is a liar and a conman who cheats to cover his orange rear end and make lots of money.

[rewinn]

...He did admit he only said that because people who says that line gets an advantage.

Yeah, there's kind of an uber-humor there (or possibly ur-humor; I frequently get them confused), where Belkar is all excited and launches a rather unwise attack because he's figured out that he doesn't have to REALLY be playing the game to get along, he just has to ACT like he is. The joke's on him because although that strategy works for him pretty well most of the time, but at this point it fails HUGELY; ironically he actually cares for Mr. Scruffy, but he hasn't figured out that the magic of caring for someone else actually works.

[jere7my]

The before a singular word implies that there is no other...

Did you vote in the election?

[SinsI]

It's strange that Mallack decided to start the fight with a spell that usually doesn't work on melee characters of that level (due to permanent Freedom of Movement from a ring).

[Sweet_Goddess]

Did you vote in the election?

Yes, I voted for The Candidate I felt was the correct one to be The President. The other Candidate was The wrong choice for me.

In an election, there a candidate for every party and many who are independent, but after The Primary for each party, there is only The Candidate for that Party.

[skim172]

This debate over Belkar's fate is interesting, but I'm gonna make a prediction of my own here - we're going to shift scenes back to the main party before we know what Malack ultimately does to Belkar.

Cliffhanger!

[jere7my]

Yes, I voted for The Candidate I felt was the correct one to be The President. The other Candidate was The wrong choice for me.

In an election, there a candidate for every party and many who are independent, but after The Primary for each party, there is only The Candidate for that Party.

So that was the last election ever, was it?

[SaintRidley]

So that was the last election ever, was it?

And certainly the only election ever, too.

[davidbofinger]

Everyone's expecting V. The dramatic story would be Xykon.

[rgrekejin]

First off, let me say that I honestly cannot believe I am engaged in an internet debate on the meaning of the word "the". Seriously, this is getting into "it depends on what your definition of 'is' is" territory. You are clearly wrong. You've been given numerous counterexamples showing the word in question working in a way you say it can't in this thread.


1 and 2 are the same

No, they are not. That's why the dictionary lists them separately. You're thinking of definition 2 only. Definition 1 clearly states that "the" can be applied to plural nouns. I don't know why we're still talking about this.


And you still don't get this... a Self-Fulfilling Prophecy is a lie, it is a deception, it isn't a true Prophecy because you're not predicting it, you're deciding it then pretending to Predict it.

Belkar has yet to cause THE Death of the Oracle, the Oracle tricked Belkar into causing A Death... the issue is people continue to use that Death as proof of the Oracle's infallibility.

No, you missed the point. My point is, you claim that Belkar didn't fulfill his prophecy because he didn't cause "the" death of the Oracle. Then you turn around and claim that Belkar's killing of the Oracle was a self-fulfilling prophecy. In order for that "prophecy" to be self-fulfilling, the predicted outcome actually needs to occur, something which you maintain hasn't happened. So, at most, only one of these theories can be right at the same time (and my money is on zero).


And there is no need to argue with Rich. Rich is doing this right, he is handing you a liar on a silver platter, hinting everywhere he is a liar, showing you that even a charlatan can get it right if you twist the words just right, and enjoying us discussing and so many people jumping at shadows and 'seeing Belkar's demise'.

Rich has either given us the death scene, the death of Old Belkar, and the evolution to New Belkar... has THE dramatic Death of Belkar planned for when everyone has finally stopped expecting it around every turn... or intends to do the big reveal at the end that the Death was always a red herring... no matter which way it is...

See, if Rich really had an issue with my statement, Rich probably would say something. But Rich is an exceptional writer and understands that controversy is good for business. Anyone who thinks Rich making the Oracle a conman and a liar, makes Rich a liar, has serious issues with understanding.

Is J.K. Rowling a liar for having Dumbledore deceive the readers and students since book 1?

Is George Lucas a liar for having Obi-wan tell Luke that Darth Vader killed his father?

Is Stan Lee a liar for having Uncle Ben tell Peter 'With Great Power comes Great Responisibility'?

Just cause the truth isn't always what you're lead to believe, doesn't make the author a liar, it just means you didn't read between the lines enough, and missed the hints.

...no. Those are all things that happened in the story itself, and have no bearing on the discussion whatsoever. What we're talking about is that Rich talks about the Oracle's prophecies in the author's commentary of his books. If he turns out to have lying to us for some strange reason, it would be the equivalent of Christopher Nolan telling you, in an interview before the movie came out, that Talia al Ghul was definitely not in "The Dark Knight Rises", just to mess with you. There's a big difference between what a character in a work does in-universe and what the author does in his real world interactions with his fans.


No, see, you didn't cause The awakening of your roomate, the awakening of your roomate would be a spiritual enlightenment, and once it happened, your roommate would be awakened and no longer be unenlightened, so could never be awakened again

If you awoke your roommate, it is just an awakening, not The awakening...

...see, now you're just using words wrong. To say that I caused the awakening of my roommate when I woke her from sleep is a perfectly valid, if slightly stilted, thing to say.


Oracle is always right, except when he isn't, but we can excuse that, cause we can ignore that most of his most accurate stuff has nothing to do with the future, and he makes off handed comments that may or may not pertain to an actual prophecy, who uses a amnesia spell to cover up him giving out more information then was paid for.

or

Oracle is a liar and a conman, who uses generalizations, and uses easily attainable magical items to supplement the appearance of accuracy, and uses an amnesia spell to cover up mistakes and his more blatantly obvious deceptions.

You're right, even though Occam's Razor is, in scientific method, not considered an irrefutable principle of logic or a scientific result, let's go with the simpler answer... Oracle is a liar and a conman who cheats to cover his orange rear end and make lots of money.

Simplified that for you.

You have yet to produce a single compelling instance of the Oracle being wrong about anything, without resorting to some very strange linguistic contortions and hopelessly convoluted readings of events. The sheer volume of people disagreeing with you ought to convince you that your reading of events is anything but the simplest answer.

[Math_Mage]

This Oracle can read the translations and talk to the audience, if he can use a simple scrying device to see stuff around the planet, so he can see the present, why wouldn't he be able to see into the Throne Room and see and hear the exact stipulations of the Mark of Justice?

"read the translations"

Oh, right, thanks for reminding us about the time the Oracle *cough* looked into the future *cough* to see the compiled translations and used that information to communicate with Haley.

[davidbofinger]

Is George Lucas a liar for having Obi-wan tell Luke that Darth Vader killed his father?


This is a case of the author changing his mind, which is quite different to lying, as well as it all being in character anyway. When Lucas gave Kenobi that line he had no idea it wasn't true.

[sabelo2000]

From a D&D play perspective, lone fighterish characters gets owned by a simple spell is not a surprising result.

From a dramatic perspective, Belkar has a track record of failing to resist even weak Will effects. If Malack got off even one single spell, there could be only one possible result.

And from a Comedic perspective, Rich once again displays his mastery of the hilarious anti-climax. Too bad he didn't wait until Strip 900 and nestle it in as a meta-joke.

[lio45]

Everyone's expecting V. The dramatic story would be Xykon.

That would be a dramatic story, not the dramatic story.



And from a Comedic perspective, Rich once again displays his mastery of the hilarious anti-climax.

You mean his mastery of an hilarious anti-climax.

[Aquillion]

Poor Belkar. Heroic tropes and narrative tradition are no match for 3e D&D's tier list.

[JackRackham]

Awww, maaaaaaan. I don't want the Belkster to go out like this. He's made me laugh too many times.

[Aquillion]

Also: If Malack wanted to, he could have cast Finger of Death rather than Hold Person. So he probably does have something else in mind beyond just killing him.

[Kish]

Or enough rudimentary tactical skill to target Belkar's worst save rather than his best one.

I mean, if clerics could cast Finger of Death anyway, which they can't.

[ti'esar]

Edit: And this is why you shouldn't skim nonsense.

[DougTheHead]

Someone's probably already pointed this out, but the strip title made me realize that the only other time in this strip that someone has said something along the lines of "I'm going to stop you because I realize what I'm fighting for" has been Roy, immediately before being Meteor-Swarmed by Xykon.

So it was definitely the wrong lesson for Belkar to take away.

[theNater]

So what, we're supposed to believe that the list only including Azurites is coincidence? :smalltongue:
While I believe you are merely teasing me, I will respond for the benefit of any who took you seriously. Yes, we are supposed to believe that is a coincidence. The comic has had at least one Azure Citizen as a major character since strip 200(that is, for over three quarters of the run of the comic), and has spent somewhere in the neighborhood of a third of the run inside Azure City or with the Azure City fleet. A large portion of the people we've spent significant amounts of time with are Azure Citizens, so it's not surprising that they are heavily represented in the list of deaths of significant characters.

Good point. also? those are all one-arc B-listers: introduced to be destroyed in interesting ways.
Belkar is an A-Lister by any standards. Roy and Haley, for example, are solid, likeable characters, but Belkar carries more comedic weight by far. And... this is a funny comic, remember (moments of crushingly dark tragedy notwithstanding)?:smallredface:
Being funny is no guarantee of survival; the wacky old dude with the cat isn't coming back. Though if you want to contend that Belkar may reappear in a way that may be the result of a fever-dream(or similar), I'm totally with you.

As for being an A-list character, that isn't exactly an in-universe distinction. The fact that B-listers are dying demonstrates that the universe of the comic is a place where people die and stay dead; it challenges the suspension of disbelief for the Order to be immune to that by virtue of their A-list status. Indeed, knowing that the Order to be immune would take a lot of the tension out of the story, weakening it overall.

[theNater]

"read the translations"

Oh, right, thanks for reminding us about the time the Oracle *cough* looked into the future *cough* to see the compiled translations and used that information to communicate with Haley.
Also in that quote: a simple scrying device which can see into the throne room of Azure City, despite the throne room being warded against scrying.

[Valley]

You know Belkar does not HAVE to die. He could be turned into a fish.

[ti'esar]

Someone's probably already pointed this out, but the strip title made me realize that the only other time in this strip that someone has said something along the lines of "I'm going to stop you because I realize what I'm fighting for" has been Roy, immediately before being Meteor-Swarmed by Xykon.

So it was definitely the wrong lesson for Belkar to take away.

Actually, I don't think anybody has. And now I feel stupid for not picking up on that.


You know Belkar does not HAVE to die. He could be turned into a fish.

...wuh?

[LadyEowyn]

Fish don't breathe.

But since that would be out of nowhere (and they're in the middle of the desert), it's far more likely that he'll die.

Anyway, I like Malack better than I do Belkar, so I'm rooting for him in this battle. Interesting philosophy regarding "kill the people you want dead yourself, don't use someone else to do it"; almost Starkian.

[Tragak]

And from a Comedic perspective, Rich once again displays his mastery of the hilarious anti-climax. Too bad he didn't wait until Strip 900 and nestle it in as a meta-joke.

Didn't he already not do that in 600?

[Drynwyn]

Prediction: Belkar will not die as a result of this. If he was going to die so randomly to make interesting symetry with his life, it would have made more sense for that to happen right off the bat, rather than this cliffhanger.

[zimmerwald1915]

While I believe you are merely teasing me
For what it's worth, you're correct.

[Forikroder]

Also: If Malack wanted to, he could have cast Finger of Death rather than Hold Person. So he probably does have something else in mind beyond just killing him.

Belkars much mroe likely to make a fort save then a will save Belkar could probaly kill him in one or two rounds considering hes a cleric with low constitution so taking Belkar out of the fight early is best


Fish don't breathe.

But since that would be out of nowhere (and they're in the middle of the desert), it's far more likely that he'll die.

Anyway, I like Malack better than I do Belkar, so I'm rooting for him in this battle. Interesting philosophy regarding "kill the people you want dead yourself, don't use someone else to do it"; almost Starkian.

fishs are also living in this world

so unless he gets turned into a fish and banished to the elemental plan of cakeless water thats not what happens

[rewinn]

Concerning the infamous Belkarfish ...

http://i44.tinypic.com/2m43x8h.jpg
(image courtesy of Miklus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=6133))
.... a long while back we had a loooong discussion about whether fish breath (...they breath water, which is why they suffocate when you pull them out of the water...) plus whether, since they don't have lungs (...except for the ones that do ...), the Oracle would have counted the Belkarfish's last breath as being the one he started the instant he turned into a fish in fulfillment of the Oracle's revelation. The conscensus was that another comic was posted and we started quibbling over something like whether the definite article in English applied to plural nouns, or something equally relevant.

Meanwhile, Belkar continues to have failed to learn his lesson, as have so many of us on internet fora :smallwink:

[ManuelSacha]

And seriously, it's incredibly insulting to call everything you didn't expect a Deus Ex Machina.

And yet, they keep doing it. Time after time after time...

[Red Lantern]

Also: If Malack wanted to, he could have cast Finger of Death rather than Hold Person. So he probably does have something else in mind beyond just killing him.
As I recall, xykon used finger of death on roy, who survived.

Belkar is likely as tough as roy, and snakehead isn't as powerful as xykon, so FoD would have possibly wounded belkar, who would have then turned snakehead into a cool new hat.

[Sweet_Goddess]

You have yet to produce a single compelling instance of the Oracle being wrong about anything, without resorting to some very strange linguistic contortions and hopelessly convoluted readings of events. The sheer volume of people disagreeing with you ought to convince you that your reading of events is anything but the simplest answer.

Your Prophecy has already been fulfilled (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html) except as everyone knows, it wasn't

You'll forget everything else (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html), except he didn't

I don't do this for free (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html) except he did.

That enough being wrong about anything?

------------------------------------------------

And to address a prophecy that people say came true, but didn't:

The actual phrase, "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth" has roots in the way that a horse's value is determined. A horse's age can be found by checking the prominence of their teeth, and a horse's value is based on their age. When you're saying this phrase, you're condemning the act of judging a gift of a horse by the horse's age.

Ultimately, the proverb, "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth" means that you should appreciate a gift that has thought and feeling behind it - don't judge a gift by the value of the item or the money put into it.

Haley received no gift that had thought or feeling behind it, she got tricked, nearly killed, and nearly had her true love hate her for being evil... no gifts there, nothing, none.

Haley was cured when she said the right 17 words to the right person at the right time for all the right reasons...

See what I did there, I showed you the mix up, the so called Oracle still can't count (I must succeed and I...I Must succeed is 3 words... Stuttering the word I doesn't make it two words), he doesn't know right from wrong (Saving ones family from a vengeful dragon is not a wrong reason; when there are evil entities around it is the wrong time)...

And, actually, just cause the Oracle claims he's looking into the future doesn't mean he is. I am looking into the future, and see that this argument will never end as long as people keep arguing... wow... I'm psychic. When the Oracle comic came out, people were already trying to translate Haley-speak, Rich already had it translated, the Oracle already breaks the 4th wall, so he just needs to lie, say, "I looked into the future" then just scry and look at Rich's past notes and translations... I look at my notes and see that I should mention notes here as if I'm looking at some (which I really am not, because I don't waste time with notes... most of this is like freewriting, just stream of consciousness, but I told you I looked at my notes to show how someone can say one thing, and be doing something completely different, get the same results, but you only have their word to accept for it)

------------------------------------