Beguiler Anima Mage

[Postmodernist]

I've got a character with good stats, thinking of going into Anima Mage from Beguiler. Race will likely be goblin for flavor reasons. Setting is Eberron. What's the best early entry method? Beguiler 2/Binder 1 with Heighten Spell and Improved Binding? Precocious Apprentice? Level will be 4 or so.

Any general advice? It would be my first time running both a beguiler and an anima mage.

[Spuddles]

You can get into anima mage with zero levels in binder. Check the feats that gove you an effective binder level and +2 binder level.

Versatile Spellcaster is good on any spontaneous caster.

Binding isn't very flexible, not within the same day. I would use naberius for social situations and one of the offensive based vestiges to use on undead or when your spells are low. Balaam gives fire breath, I believe. Or maybe it's the ram.

[Postmodernist]

So you recommend selecting Bind Vestige and Improved Binding as feats? I know that the PrC is poorly written and allows for that loophole, but is it worth while? If so, what would that character look like? Take flaws at first level for Bind and Improved? You still need Precocious Apprentice and a metamagic feat for early entry, right?

[Spuddles]

It really depends how much mileage you want to get out of your feats. Versatile spellcaster ostensibly gets you early entry.

It's definitely cheesy, but losing CL always hurts. Beguiler3/anima mage 1 gets you 2nd level spells and 2nd level vestiges. I think it's worth the feat tax.

[Psyren]

You can get in that way, but you need to check with your DM whether your Anima Mage levels will stack with your zero levels in Binder to give you more Binding. If he says yes it may be worth it (if you can spare the feats); if he says no, just take the level dip of Binder.

Leraje is a good low-level vestige - get a decent bow, throw up some illusions or something and plink from the back row. Your dex will likely be high anyway.

[Postmodernist]

Good recommendations. Any other suggestions?

[Postmodernist]

You can get in that way, but you need to check with your DM whether your Anima Mage levels will stack with your zero levels in Binder to give you more Binding. If he says yes it may be worth it (if you can spare the feats); if he says no, just take the level dip of Binder.

Leraje is a good low-level vestige - get a decent bow, throw up some illusions or something and plink from the back row. Your dex will likely be high anyway.

I got a firm suggestion to take the level in Binder. How will this affect my build? Beguiler 2/Binder 1 with Imp. Binding and Versatile Spellcaster? Anything else?

EDIT: How do more experienced Binder players actually role play the pact out?

[Answerer]

Ultimately, I think the one level in Binder and one feat for Improved Binding is better than the two feats for Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige.

That said:

you need to check with your DM whether your Anima Mage levels will stack with your zero levels in Binder to give you more Binding.RAW, they do, because WotC is dumb. DMs probably shouldn't allow them to, but even if you do I'm unconvinced it's worth it.

[Psyren]

I got a firm suggestion to take the level in Binder. How will this affect my build? Beguiler 2/Binder 1 with Imp. Binding and Versatile Spellcaster? Anything else?

EDIT: How do more experienced Binder players actually role play the pact out?

Ignore Special Requirements is the other must-have Binder feat. Beyond that, you can focus on the Beguiler side with stuff like metamagic.

If you manage to get to any Advanced Learnings with Beguiler, focus on Shadow spells like Shadow Evocation/Conjuration. Even being only partially-real, you can still use them to duplicate other spells from the sor/wiz list - which you can then combine with Astaroth + Karsus to craft (and use) items of those spells. For example, you could use Shadow Evocation to scribe a Resilient Sphere scroll, and Karsus would let you use it as though you were a wizard without needing UMD.



RAW, they do, because WotC is dumb. DMs probably shouldn't allow them to, but even if you do I'm unconvinced it's worth it.

Right, and RAW drowning heals you and a bunch of other oddities :smallsmile: but I told the OP to ask because this isn't a TO thread - it's for an actual game.

[Spuddles]

Ultimately, I think the one level in Binder and one feat for Improved Binding is better than the two feats for Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige.

That said:
RAW, they do, because WotC is dumb. DMs probably shouldn't allow them to, but even if you do I'm unconvinced it's worth it.

Why don't you think it's worth it? You can always shuffle/psy reform the loser feat out later. But assuming it's not possible, you don't think a feat is worth an entire caster level? Every time I play low level theurges, I really feel being a level behind. It's even worse when you have sorc progression.

[HunterOfJello]

It would be good to find out which entry methods your DM would allow first. Some people argue that Versatile Spellcaster alone allows a Beguiler access to 2nd level spells at level 1. I don't support that argument and I'm not attempting to encourage discussion of it, but you can find arguments for it on these boards.

Second, are you allowed flaws?

So far this build is extremely feat intensive, which isn't great. Improved Binding is fine to take as part of it because every Binder takes Improved Binding. Taking Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell is a proven method of gaining "second level" spells, but it also requires 2 feats. Great feats, but two of them. If you can take a flaw, then this is definitely worth doing because then you can still play a good Beguiler race like Forest Gnome at the same time. If you can't take a flaw, then Precocious Apprentice may be a better option since then you aren't forced into playing a Human or Tallfellow Halfling.


~~~~

You also need to satisfy the skill rank requirements for Anime Mage, so you're going to have to pay extra skill points to meet those. Beguiler has plenty of skill points to spend, so paying 8 cross-class won't be too horrible. Just remember to deduct them from your skill points spent properly.

[Postmodernist]

Flaws (or rather one per character) are in. Looks like Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten, and Imp. Binding are all in order.

Ability score rolls:

[14]
[18]
[14]
[15]
[14]
[11]

18 will be INT, 15 CON, 14 DEX, 14 CHA before modifiers. Others are dump stats.


Any metamagic suggestions?

[Psyren]

Why don't you think it's worth it? You can always shuffle/psy reform the loser feat out later. But assuming it's not possible, you don't think a feat is worth an entire caster level? Every time I play low level theurges, I really feel being a level behind. It's even worse when you have sorc progression.

Psyreform all the way back to first level will cost a boatload of XP (and therefore gold) though. Retraining is wholly dependent on the DM's good graces and shuffling is cheese of the highest order. So it's not so much that it's not worth it if you can get away with it, it's just that you can't assume these options are available in all games.

[Answerer]

Psyren's got this one right.

[prufock]

What I would consider the "least controversial" early entry is Beguiler 2/Binder 1, with Precocious Apprentice and a MM feat at first level (human, strongheart halfling, or flaw), and Improved Binding at 3rd.

[Spuddles]

Heighten is really solid on a beguiler because it makes your money low level stuff (glitterdust, slow) relevant all game. Combine with versatile spellcaster and you have early access to a new spell level. Other than that, I am not so sure what good metamagics there are for beguiler just because most metamagics that are worth the price increase damage. Sculpt spell for your battlefield control spells can be useful. A 60ft line of confusion can be pretty neat. The typically good metamagics- empower, split ray, fell drain, quicken- won't do you much good due to your spell list. If you grab the feat that lets you use metamagic without taking all round, quicken is obviously very good.

If you work out how invisible spell works with your DM, that could be a very solid choice. Silent & Still spell would also be good choices, but if you back into beguiler and don't get to retrain, they may not be worth picking up.

You can get some mileage out of extend spell- extended blinding color surge, for instance. Not as much as a druid casting extended energy immunities, but making spells last longer is almost always useful.


Psyreform all the way back to first level will cost a boatload of XP (and therefore gold) though. Retraining is wholly dependent on the DM's good graces and shuffling is cheese of the highest order. So it's not so much that it's not worth it if you can get away with it, it's just that you can't assume these options are available in all games.

I guess my expectations have just changed. Chaos Shuffle for switching out base feats isn't cheesy, imo. It requires casting two 8th level spells that cost 400 xp each. Using it to trade out alertness from your familiar or elf weapon prof, I agree is super cheesy. But using it to change precocious apprentice into a metamagic feat? Not that bad.

Psy reform is super cheap for what it does, assuming standard service costs. 280 gp for the manifestation and 250gp per level you go back. Because gold is wbl is non linear, it gets relatively cheaper the higher level you pay someone to manifest it.



Psyren's got this one right.

I think trading a feat for an increase in spellcasting is virually always worth it. Draconic reservoir is feat tax for the greater rite of the dragon, but if you're playing a kobold sorcerer, why wouldn't you take it? Cheese reasons not withstanding, of course.

[Answerer]

It's not one feat, it's two feats that literally do absolutely nothing once you start taking levels in Anima Mage.

[Spuddles]

It's not one feat, it's two feats that literally do absolutely nothing once you start taking levels in Anima Mage.

Am I thinking of the wrong feat, then? Feat 2 is improved binding. That boosts your binding by two levels. Or is there an "improved fake binding" feat?

[Psyren]

Am I thinking of the wrong feat, then? Feat 2 is improved binding. That boosts your binding by two levels. Or is there an "improved fake binding" feat?

He is talking about Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige (the ones you need to get into Anima Mage without Binder levels.)

Anyway, his DM already kiboshed Anima Mage advancing not-Binder into Binder so this is all a giant derail at this point.

[Postmodernist]

assuming standard service

This is the issue in most games. It's not like you can just pop into High Level Psions R Us and get a reformation or call up your Chaos Shuffle dealer for your weekly rebuild fix.

EDIT: Also, agreement with what Psyren stated above.

[Spuddles]

Ah, I thought improved bind vestige and improved binding were the same feat. My bad. And seven levels of psion isn't particularly "high level". Not like waiting around for chaos shuffle or limited wish (though I suppose you could get your hands on a scroll of one and UMD it).

Chain Spell might be a pretty solid metamagic to pick up, especially with metamagic cost mitigation. It turns some pretty nasty single target disables into disable everyone. I haven't played a Beguiler in forever. Maybe reach spell? Uncertain what that would work on other than overwhelm.

[Phelix-Mu]

I am beginning to think that my next caster is going to be an Anima Mage. A player in my campaign a couple campaigns back played a binder, and it was some very interesting flavor, and I've just recently looked at the mechanics again. Not too shabby, just suffering from the general lack of support that doomed most of ToM. Some of the stuff you can do with vestiges is quite flexible, and a little spellcasting on the side is, of course, golden.

I have heard in multiple places that there were web-based vestiges released that dramatically altered binder power level (by some accounts). As it is somewhat pertinent to the thread, what do you all think about this? And where are said vestige descriptions to be found?

[Postmodernist]

A concise list can be found here (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Consolidated_Binder_Handbook_(3.5e_Guide)/Vestiges). There are also other Binder Handbooks that are worth checking out.

[sreservoir]

What I would consider the "least controversial" early entry is Beguiler 2/Binder 1, with Precocious Apprentice and a MM feat at first level (human, strongheart halfling, or flaw), and Improved Binding at 3rd.

probably prefer versatile spellcaster?

[Psyren]

I have heard in multiple places that there were web-based vestiges released that dramatically altered binder power level (by some accounts). As it is somewhat pertinent to the thread, what do you all think about this? And where are said vestige descriptions to be found?

Just one - Zceryll (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718), which was powerful enough to raise Binders that have access to her a whole tier. It's not just her summon power either - all her abilities are strong.

The other web vestiges are okay, but don't come close to her. The psionic ones are horribly low on ammunition and so work best with Anima Psion or gestalt.