[D&D 3.5]Orb survival and other questions

[Magikeeper]

So, I’m playing in a high-op campaign and I have a question: Is there anyway to be immune to transdimensional searing orb of fire (and other orbs)? There is one specific group of enemies – the elite troops of an evil empire – that among other things enjoy the tactic of chucking dozens if not hundreds of these orbs at my face. They use limited wish to auto-hit with the volley, so high AC isn’t going to stop this. I don’t think I can match their effective caster level but other than that cost is not really an issue and you can assume my group has or could get access to anything except artifacts and epic level stuff.

Things of note: Shapechange and co have been nerfed, Ice assassin has been banned, PAO has been banned, Arcane Genesis now works like the psionic version, astral projection and Gate don’t infinity-loop anymore, Holy Word and co have been nerfed, worn items gain all immunities of the wearer, and antimagic immunity only applies to the ability to cast spells not to the effects themselves (this does mean passive buff items would still function in an antimagic field if you are immune, but cast buff spells would not function in antimagic even though you could cast them while in the field and then have them work normally when you left the field).

Also, I am already wielding as many spellblades as is feasible (I forget if that would apply here, but it is not an option in any case)

I have some other issues, but I’ll start with the orbs.


Edit: I forgot a very important houserule for this - Persistent spell is now a +2 Level metamagic that is a proportional increase (round -> minute -> 10 minute -> hour -> day -> week). On the plus side we have energy immunity and such set up for several months, but making round/lvl buffs last all day is beyond us.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ray Deflection in Spell Compendium makes all ranged touch attacks automatically miss you. Being personal range it's even a valid choice for Persistent Spell, but you'll need some metamagic shenanigans for that as it's a 4th level spell.

[Phelix-Mu]

Block line of effect comes to mind. Globe of invulnerability should work, but they can probably find a way around this (like limited wish for an orb of fire).

There are probably some other stuff that blocks it. There is a fifth level druid spell, fireward, that might work, not sure if you can emulate it or w/e. Worth looking into.

Some of the other abjuration stuff might work. Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil? Not sure about the exact mechanics off the top of my head.

In second edition, Chosen of Mystra gained immunity to one spell per spell level on the wizard list. Specific immunity to the spell orb of fire should work.

[Magikeeper]

I did not think the orb spells counted as rays, which is what the version of ray deflection in the spell compendium protects against. Am I wrong about this?

Also, I forgot a very important houserule for this - Persistent spell is now a +2 Level metamagic that is a proportional increase (round -> minute -> 10 minute -> hour -> day -> week). On the plus side we have energy immunity and such set up for several months, but making round/lvl buffs last all day is beyond us.

Fire Ward: They would just substitute another energytype even if this does work.

Blocked Line of effect - True, a contingent dispelling screen would protect me from being murdered in the first round. I am hoping for a buff-and-forget immunity if one exists though.

Chosen of Mystra - That... is a really hard template to get. A very nice template although it suffers from their being a bunch of orb spells, fire is just the first one they will try.

[Urpriest]

While Ray Deflection probably doesn't work (haven't checked if it indeed works on all ranged touch attacks), Friendly Fire (Exemplars of Evil) will work.

[tyckspoon]

I did not think the orb spells counted as rays, which is what the version of ray deflection in the spell compendium protects against. Am I wrong about this?


It's kind of poorly written- it's titled 'Ray Deflection' and the second half of its mechanics block only mentions Rays, but the first half says 'you are protected against ranged touch attacks'. On balance I think it's meant to cover all such spells, and just uses Rays as the most common example.

If your DM doesn't like that, get ahold of Friendly Fire (Exemplars of Evil.) Allows you to retarget all ranged attacks at you to new targets within 30 feet.. using the same attack roll as the original. Presumably if they are willing to burn Limited Wishes to make sure they can hit you, this means they automatically slap themselves in the face with their own Orbs. Have fun :smallbiggrin: (If you aren't within 30 feet, just deflect all the orbs into a nearby rock or something. You aren't required to target a creature with an Effect spell like an orb.)

[Matticussama]

If you come across that particular spell so frequently, then go with Persisted Spell Immunity: Orb of Fire. Since your group's altered rules would change its duration from 10 min/level to 1 hour/level, as long as you know what you're going up against with enough time to buff then you should be good to go. It doesn't help against ambushes, but it is something.

[Urpriest]

If you come across that particular spell so frequently, then go with Persisted Spell Immunity: Orb of Fire. Since your group's altered rules would change its duration from 10 min/level to 1 hour/level, as long as you know what you're going up against with enough time to buff then you should be good to go. It doesn't help against ambushes, but it is something.

Doesn't work, Spell Immunity acts like SR.

[Matticussama]

I didn't think about that caveat, good point.

[Magikeeper]

On the exact type of orb: The enemy will likely switch spells mid-volly to another orb type or even another spell if the first few don't work. I'm immune to most of what they are likely to be able to dish out but I needed to fill the gaping orb-shaped hole in my defenses.

Friendly fire: Ah yes. That might work although I suspect we will be required to have a legal target - anyway to build a sink for these attacks? It should be noted that the elite troops try to avoid being anywhere near us. Although I am a little afraid of reminding the DM that this spell exists (probably why I forgot it :P). Eh, the party already assumes our ranged attacks are useless anyway so I guess they won't hate me for reminding him.

Another issue we have is Otiluke's Suppressing Field. This is commonly used by regular enemies we encounter, usually combined with some trick to have caster levels in the 30s/40s although stupidly high CLs occasionally pop up. Anyway to be immune to this? We are close to being able to just spam shaped disjunctions (I am going to be so happy when that day comes), but we can't reliably do that just yet.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Etherealness would protect you.

[Magikeeper]

Ah, I forgot to mention the orbs are transdimensional. Sorry about that. That metamagic is so omni-present in our campaign that I sometimes forget that's a thing. :P

*edits that into first post*

[Phelix-Mu]

Consider battlefield control that forces the enemy casters into close range with you. Solid walls, opaque barriers, illusory trickery, Invisible Spell shenanigans, and such can force them to move toward you to target you. Once they are close, available countermeasures increase. Consider greater dispelling screen and such, closely layered around permeable, but opaque, walls that they believe they are immune to. Meld into stone and project image may also be feasible.

Consider readied translocation trick or baleful transposition.

Finally, consider making it a party priority to put fear into the hearts of these imperial mages. Attack them at home, when they are sleeping, stage fake opportunities for them to ambush you, with counter ambush ready. Make the stories the survivors tell legendary. Psychological warfare is a real thing, and it can work in game, even among the most dedicated of enemies. Magic makes anything possible, out of combat even more so. Consider the out of combat approach and its many possibilities.

[Kelb_Panthera]

On the exact type of orb: The enemy will likely switch spells mid-volly to another orb type or even another spell if the first few don't work. I'm immune to most of what they are likely to be able to dish out but I needed to fill the gaping orb-shaped hole in my defenses.

Friendly fire: Ah yes. That might work although I suspect we will be required to have a legal target - anyway to build a sink for these attacks? It should be noted that the elite troops try to avoid being anywhere near us. Although I am a little afraid of reminding the DM that this spell exists (probably why I forgot it :P). Eh, the party already assumes our ranged attacks are useless anyway so I guess they won't hate me for reminding him.

Another issue we have is Otiluke's Suppressing Field. This is commonly used by regular enemies we encounter, usually combined with some trick to have caster levels in the 30s/40s although stupidly high CLs occasionally pop up. Anyway to be immune to this? We are close to being able to just spam shaped disjunctions (I am going to be so happy when that day comes), but we can't reliably do that just yet.

Valid targets aren't a concern. Ranged attack-rolls like that don't care what they're aimed at. Unless the spell has a target line that says something about creatures (none of the orb of X spells do), you can aim at empty squares on the grid.

[Slipperychicken]

While Ray Deflection probably doesn't work (haven't checked if it indeed works on all ranged touch attacks), Friendly Fire (Exemplars of Evil) will work.

FF is also much stronger in general. Rounds/level of "nope"-ing all ranged attacks ever? Do want. Yeah, you can Persist it (mitigation required, but worth it).

[Magikeeper]

Wait, FF is self-only. We have some cohorts with the put-self-buffs-on-others build but our group's version of persist would only increase that to one minute per level (two minutes with extend). The cohorts wouldn't be able to survive following us around IMO so that's an issue. Does anyone have a way around this?

On fear tactics and the like:
Although those are great suggestions, at the moment I do not think we would survive attacking the empire itself or even openly declaring our intent to overthrow it. We're currently traveling across space and time and the only time we encounter the elite troops are when we are A) Trying to beat them to something or B) Trying to take/liberate an artifact/prisoner in their possession. This means we are usually the aggressors whenever we encounter them - they have no reason to fight on our terms.

Not that they fight anyway. They slaughter. If it looks like they are going to have to fight for real or if there is ANYTHING going on in the battlefield they don't understand they invariably use temporal regression/forced dream/wish/time stop/etc to flee. If nothing else, they are most organized group of Brave Sir Robins I have ever seen. I should note that most of the actual mages are back at the empire using liquid pain factories [Major export of the empire, I think.] and D&D economy/crafting tricks to equip the children of nobles and the like with millions of GP worth of gear.

This trait is great for type A meetings but it makes type B meeting virtually impossible as we can't manage catch these guys.

Also, they love anticipate teleportation fields.

[the_archduke]

Be an (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#exceptionalDeflection) epic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#infiniteDeflection) monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#reflectArrows)

[Phelix-Mu]

Ah yes, the epic monk fix. You don't strictly speaking have to be a monk, but you have to be epic, which is not helpful to the OP.

I think to complete the build for this trick you need one of those feats that lets you take an attack aimed at an adjacent ally. I think it was in Drow of the Underdark...Constant Guardian? Ah, a two feat tree, Constant Guardian and Dutiful Guardian...less appealing, but it works on any target within 10'. This particular fix is expensive, but if you have a fighter or tank type, this might help.

Stand in front of the cohorts. At this point, a complete list of class levels and build concepts for party members and cohorts would be helpful, as it would give us a little more framework for a solution.

I think maybe if you used illusion magic to confuse the issue of whether you are immune to the effects of a particular type of spell. I'm not an expert, but I think the spell only alerts the caster to ineffectiveness if it allows a save? Or maybe that was for a specific school of spell.

In any case, trickery here might help ensure the enemy is wasting as much of their resources as possible. Also consider mundane Disguise on everyone as to make everyone look like the person with the Friendly Fire cast on themselves. At great range and with a great many spells in play, even intelligent enemies might lose track of who they are aiming at.

UMD wings of flurry might help mitigate some damage, but it sounds like the number of spells hitting per round is too high for this to make a huge difference.

Earthglide and similar line of effect-blocking is sounding better. Meld into stone and project image can work for this, as can high level Trickery Devotion and barriers. Shadow conjuration for walls might also be a good option, since you can select the wall based on the current situation, if your party is full of prepared casters.

[Randomguy]

from Ray deflection:

For the duration of the spell, you
are protected against ranged touch
attacks, including ray spells and ray
attacks made by creatures. Any ray
attack directed at you is automatically
reflected harmlessly away.


The fact that it specifies ray spells in the second sentence is probably just as an example; the "including ray spells" part implies that its not just ray spell but all touch attacks.

You can make it last all day by making it a level 8 spell, too.

Other options:

Globe of invulnerability would make you immune to all orb spells and then some.

Otiluke's Reselient Sphere on you would work. So would a wall of force, but they could get around that. The problem is that this would make it tough for you to attack them as well without a ring gate or something similar. You could still use summons, though.

Xorn movement: Dive for cover underground, attack them through the ground. They'd probably ready actions for when you pop out though.

Otiluke's Dispelling Screen: "Spell effects not operating on objects or unattended creatures cannot pass through the screen." They won't be able to cast at you through it.

Be a swarm: Immune to single target effects. To be a swarm, either polymorph or be a very high level warlock and discorporate.

Prismatic wall would also work, but that seems like overkill.

[nedz]

Globe of invulnerability would make you immune to all orb spells and then some.

Does GoI work against Orbs ?

AMF doesn't stop them because Orbs are conjured balls of stuff — so they should go straight though Globes also.

[Scow2]

AMF doesn't stop them because Orbs are conjured balls of stuff — so they should go straight though Globes also.

Actually, I'm pretty sure AMF does stop them, just as it stops any other conjured stuff - like summoned creatures.

[Morcleon]

Actually, I'm pretty sure AMF does stop them, just as it stops any other conjured stuff - like summoned creatures.

AMF does not stop instantaneous conjuration effects, which the orbs are.


)The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

[Phelix-Mu]

AMF does not stop instantaneous conjuration effects, which the orbs are.

So, given that I accept this, how does one justify the orb spells being 4th level spells (particularly orb of force).

If they didn't exist and someone said they wanted to research a spell that
-ignored AMF
-no save
-no spell resist
-ranged touch
I find that sounds more like 5th than 4th. I don't have tons of 3e experience with new spell research, but I do have a pretty good instinct for power level creep. How would y'all peg it, and with what justification?

And, on the AMF note, if the effect of the spell is the creation of the orb, which is instantaneous, which is then used to attack using ranged attack, is there room for some kind of interrupt immediate effect in between the spell's creation of the sphere and the attack? Perhaps the OP can use this somehow...

[TuggyNE]

So, given that I accept this, how does one justify the orb spells being 4th level spells (particularly orb of force).

If they didn't exist and someone said they wanted to research a spell that
-ignored AMF
-no save
-no spell resist
-ranged touch
I find that sounds more like 5th than 4th. I don't have tons of 3e experience with new spell research, but I do have a pretty good instinct for power level creep. How would y'all peg it, and with what justification?

The orbs are generally considered to fit better in Evocation, which would solve the problem of AMF-penetration (even if they remained SR:No).

Oddly, globe of invulnerability does seem capable of stopping the orbs, even though antimagic field can't.

[nedz]

So, given that I accept this, how does one justify the orb spells being 4th level spells (particularly orb of force).

If they didn't exist and someone said they wanted to research a spell that
-ignored AMF
-no save
-no spell resist
-ranged touch
I find that sounds more like 5th than 4th. I don't have tons of 3e experience with new spell research, but I do have a pretty good instinct for power level creep. How would y'all peg it, and with what justification?

They are very powerful spells — but they only do damage, plus a small debuff.

The orbs are generally considered to fit better in Evocation, which would solve the problem of AMF-penetration (even if they remained SR:No).

Oddly, globe of invulnerability does seem capable of stopping the orbs, even though antimagic field can't.

How so ?
The wording on Globe and AMF seem to be very similar.

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmm, maybe psychic reformation on someone to get spellfire wielder, friendly fire the orbs into the waiting spellfire wielder, who is ready to absorb. Not sure if that works.

In any case, you could globe of invulnerability, get the cohorts and non-casters into the sphere, friendly fire on self in case of limited wish orb of x.

It would be really cool if you could hire an epic monk to send the friendly fire at, who would then homerun the orb back at the caster with Reflect Arrows, Exceptional Deflection, and Infinite Deflection. This strategy would depend on the precise wording of friendly fire, though. Would be fun to watch if it worked.

Diplomance an epic monk?

[Juntao112]

Wings of Cover?

[TuggyNE]

The wording on Globe and AMF seem to be very similar.

Antimagic field has an exception for instantaneous conjurations (which the orbs are). Globe of invulnerability doesn't.

[ahenobarbi]

Hiding behind good, ol' tower shield will prevent them from targeting you. It will also prevent you from targeting them. But this could help your followers survive.

[Eldariel]

Hmm, maybe psychic reformation on someone to get spellfire wielder, friendly fire the orbs into the waiting spellfire wielder, who is ready to absorb. Not sure if that works.

In any case, you could globe of invulnerability, get the cohorts and non-casters into the sphere, friendly fire on self in case of limited wish orb of x.

It would be really cool if you could hire an epic monk to send the friendly fire at, who would then homerun the orb back at the caster with Reflect Arrows, Exceptional Deflection, and Infinite Deflection. This strategy would depend on the precise wording of friendly fire, though. Would be fun to watch if it worked.

Diplomance an epic monk?

Why do you want a Monk? Dragons are much more useful and old enough Dragons qualify for Epic feats and Exceptional Deflection is a very interesting feat for them anyways.

[nedz]

Antimagic field has an exception for instantaneous conjurations (which the orbs are). Globe of invulnerability doesn't.

Hmm, your right.
This sounds like a minor dysfunction to me though — or at least an inconsistency.

[Magikeeper]

I don't think hiring an epic monk is an option (we need absolute loyalty right now anyway), and we don't allow the pre-epic epic feat thing although loredrake is fine.

Solutions that restrict our movements are not as useful as our group tends to be on the offensive when combat happens. Our opponents, at least any that have even the barest intel on our group, will happily flee if we turtle. Or move to a better position and call for back up (rare, since we are not yet a priority target). Either way, it's not good for us.

On followers not being safe:

The main issue with followers is not being targeted in combat but rather area effects. Not even counting elite troop combats there are all sorts of situations where we get hit with DCs in the high thirties – and it is usually a spam (make 5 saves, make 20 saves, etc). Having evasion won’t save them if they can’t reliably make the saves – and none of them have mettle. Not to mention some of these effects would outright kill them or worse. Traps we encounter while pursuing artifacts across the planes sometimes have saves higher than that. Granted, once we get off the current plane we are searching for stuff (place where resurrection is risky), mere death is not an issue and temple traps usually don’t bind souls like our actual enemies do.

Globe of Invulnerability: Also blocks allied effects and buffs. Not to mention it is a 1rnd/level personal buff. If we had a way to make that work FF would do the trick.

On disguise and illusion:

The main issue with illusions against the more dangerous foes is widespread truesight / truesight item use (This makes me sad as I really like illusions). If we are out of truesight range they are really good though, I should use them more often. Faking being effected/not effected could work pretty well in some situations...thanks!

Disguise checks suffer from the Fell Conspiracy feat (+2 spot/listen for each ceremony participant within 100ft). This makes disguise something that only works in closed quarters as +200 spot is hard to beat. Although my PC is trying.

Okay, If you think it will help here is the gist of the party. I’m going to summarize a lot:

Note that the PCs are gestalt while cohorts and the vast majority of NPCs are not. Also, all creatures from our homeworld have +2 free LA (long story, this applies to troops of the Evil Empire as well). Also, the DM uses spellpoints and has metamagic work like metapsionics except without expending focus. Yes, this means metamagic is amazing. Some homebrew classes are allowed, PCs with those classes are currently sole users of them (this has both pros and cons RP-wise). DCS is in use and we all have a ton of feats. The DM actively encourages leadership chains and has no problem with psicrystals with leadership so we have a lot of cohorts and followers.

Most of these followers stay on our ship, the Free Egg. The ship is hidden underground and is safe from ambush and most divinations at the moment. It’s more like an all-terrain spaceship/ark, really. Getting to it and back takes awhile.
More ship stuff:
Which is basically a living astral ship using the Stronghold builders guide and dang near every other ship augmenting rule in D&D to be a massive ark-like vessel (similar to a Protoss Carrier in design). It was built in secret, and we intend to keep it one. Thus, it is fairly safe from ambush. Currently 10 miles underground with a wierdstone active. If anyone knows any good non-abjuration buffs to put on a ship the spell turrets have a lot of free slots that are..um… buffing the ship with something.
Turrets:

5x Spell Turrets of [Extended Invisible Golem Immunity (Flesh) / ?Deceptive? Heightened Stored Lighting Bolt / Extended MindBlank / <?????>] <- I’m assuming the price of a 9th level spell turret, as they are all effectively 8th level spells with 1 level of metamagic. The 5 turrets are in the same room as the helm/seat and are staggered so that each spell is cast every round. This means our ship is immune to magic like a flesh golem, is protected from scrying spells, and heals ~42 points of damage per round. The issue is when the Magic Immunity ends the ship takes ~126 damage on a failed save, so I can’t risk setting up a trap that deals 1000s of damage each round.

5x spell Turrets of [Extended Mystic Shield/????/????/????]

5x spell Turrets of [Extended Persisted H. Delay Death/Persisted Planar Bubble/????/????], Staggered so as to cast every spell alongside the above. Helps protect the ship if it loses magic immunity due to the duration expiring or dispelling. <- Level 7 with +2 metamagic (remember group uses different Persist)

5x spell Turrets of [Extended H. Haste/Extended H. PFE(Fire)/H. Extended Freedom of Movement/????]
5x spell Turrets of [H. Extended DeathWard/Extended Heightened Cloud Wings/Ext H. Sheltered Vitality/????] ,_ Level 7 with +1 metamagic

Every Room has a Spellturret of [Zone of Respite / H. Delay Death / ????? / ??????] ,_<- anti-teleport and crew aid.



Okay, the party itself:
Every PC has a level of marshal except Sir Cha Pik Cha.
Most multiclass piles include dips into PRCs that give +saves, +AC, mettle, what-have-you (witchhunter is a favorite). Homebrew is noted:

Seriuex - Ozodrin 18//Pile of Multiclassing -> Extremely hard to kill, has the most (Ex) immunities in the party including regen + fire/acid immunity (DM rules nonlethal = x10 max still kills). Is okay* in melee and has few psionic powers (Ardent, mostly self-buffs and temporal acceleration). Kills anything not immune to grappling and has a lot of utility abilities via Ozodrin. This is my PC. Medium sized.
*Relative to the other melee-ers.

Ambro – Telekenitisist 18//Romancer 15/Defensive Multiclassing -> Basically pushes people around, deals direct damage, and creates barriers. Tiny sized.

Hilaya -> 16+ different classes -> Basically a Rainbow Warmage combined with a Battlejumping pouncing Ubercharger. Can spont. cast all 9th level and below cleric/warmage spells and use miracle for 7th or below wizard spells. The player just uses this to buff and use quickened spells in combat, preferring to enter melee. Large sized.

Zeva -> Bazillion Classes -> Basically a shadowpouncer combined with a battlejumping pouncing ubercharger. Can use powers as an 11th level ardent (ML 15) so she has temporal acceleration. Teleporting virtually never works (anticipate teleportation) so she does melee as well. Large Sized.

Sir Cha Pik Cha -> I do not know -> Basically a thrikeen “lets make 20+ attacks per round” sort of guy. Is a paladin/monk/fixed soulknife but otherwise I don’t know. Is too dependent on con damage weapons IMO. Melee. Medium Sized.

We have two cohorts that do travel with the group (Cohorts are not Gestalt):

Anjay – Wizard 2/Master Spec. 4/Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Witch hunter 1/Archmage 4 -> Typical Shadowcraft mage using the non-racist adaption. Over 100% real illusions, shadow miracle was ruled to not work due to other implications such a rule would have. Can barely survive. Fine sized (Sparrow alternate form). Is Hilaya’s cohort.

Julia – Unbodied/Wizard/Mindmage/Witch Hunter – I noted her race as being incorporeal is a big deal for her. Julia is an optimized bluffmaster but combat-wise she just casts forced dream every combat, syncs initiatives with a party member, and rewinds time if bad things happen during her turn. Hides inside Seriuex’s stomach (Ozodrin power) and is terrified of.. well, anything. Rightly so. Medium Size. Is Ambro’s cohort.

Zeva wants her king of smack cohort to travel with us along with two master thrower / bloodstorm blade guys and some optimized druids. I’m not sure she can keep them alive.

Cohorts/Followers that don’t travel with the group are mostly casters including the cast-self-buffs-on-others builds. At least Seriuex's were-spider super kobolds. I don't know what the myriad of animal shifters (lycan and other wise) can do. Mostly druids and combat builds, I think.

Seriuex's VOP diplomancer cohort is currently on a very long mission and won't be back until we are well into epic. Note that diplomancy is strong but not as strong as RAW implies in our game. Seriuex's psycrystal's cohort is the strongest arcane caster we have (actual 9ths + shadowmagic), but he runs the ark and is the head of the kobold clan that staffs the ship.

Ambro's psycrystal-like thing could have a 17th level cohort if anyone has a suggested build that would helpful.

I think the best way to sum it up is this: We are Pre-Epic PCs in a high-op Epic campaign. The more passive immunities the better. It's been a loooooong road since level 3. Well, for Seriuex and Ambro anyway.