Would you allow a Cat in your campaign ?

[silverwolfer]

[SPOILER]The fabled Cheshire cat has long been described in bards' tales but is rarely seen because of its unusual invisibility power.

Cheshire Cat
Small Fey
Hit Dice: 3d6 (10 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class: 14 (+1 size, +3 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-7
Attack: Claw +5 melee (1d2-4)
Full Attack: 2 claws +5 melee (1d2-4) and bite +0 melee (1d3-4)
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Spells
Special Qualities: Controlled invisibility, DR 5/cold iron, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +6, Will +4
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 15
Skills: Balance +11, Climb +13, Diplomacy +8, Handle Humanoid +8, Hide +11*, Jump +7, Listen +7, Move Silently +13, Spot +7
Feats: Don't Mind Me, Eschew Materials (B)**, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse (bite) (B), Weapon Finesse (claw) (B)
Climate/Terrain: Temperate forests
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually chaotic good
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +3

A Cheshire cat is a strange, fey creature that appears to be a larger-than-ordinary house cat weighing between 20 and 40 pounds. It often lurks in trees, waiting for the gullible and unwary to pass by so that it can tease them. Cheshire cats enjoy using their controlled invisibility ability and spells to create mischief.

Combat

Cheshire cats usually endeavor to avoid physical combat. They prefer to solve conflicts diplomatically or through the judicious use of their spells.

Spells: A Cheshire cat casts spells as a 3rd-level sorcerer. It prefers illusions and enchantments but avoids necromancy spells.

Typical Sorcerer Spells Known (6/6; save DC 12 + spell level): 0 -- daze, detect magic, ghost sound, light, resistance; 1st -- hypnotism, mage armor, ventriloquism.

Controlled Invisibility (Su): A Cheshire cat can become wholly or partially invisible at will. Whenever it uses this ability, it can choose the precise portions of its body that become invisible. If it chooses to leave any portion of its body visible, it gains partial concealment (20% miss chance); otherwise it has total concealment (50% miss chance). Activating this ability or changing the degree of concealment it grants is a standard action. A Cheshire cat often chooses to leave only its smile, which is unusually wide and rather unfeline, visible.

Skills: A Cheshire cat receives a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, Jump, and Move Silently checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, its Hide bonus rises to +8. For running jumps, its Jump bonus is +8. Like a normal cat, it also receives a +8 racial bonus on Balance checks and uses its Dexterity modifier for Climb and Jump checks. A Cheshire cat has skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) x (HD + 3).

Feats: A Cheshire cat gains feats as though it were a humanoid.






Would you allow one of those in your group by a player character?

[Pickford]

Only LA +3?

Also...chaotic good. I always had the impression the cat was chaotic neutral.

[Morcleon]

It's not that bad. 3 RHD and 3 LA, and by RAW, the racial casting doesn't stack with any actual sorcerer levels. Generally, that much LA/RHD will give a lot more than just some casting, DR, and invisibility. :smalltongue:

Seems fine to me. :smallbiggrin: Would probably rule that the invis is removed upon attacking, just like in the spell.

[ArcturusV]

Probably not, since it would lead to a less serious tone. Which I don't like. I mean if you have a serious tone, you can always throw in a random joke or a funny scene to break up the pacing. When you character concept is based on random silliness however it is pretty hard to get the game face on and be serious.

Eh. I don't like Invisibility at will for PCs either.

[Morcleon]

Probably not, since it would lead to a less serious tone. Which I don't like. I mean if you have a serious tone, you can always throw in a random joke or a funny scene to break up the pacing. When you character concept is based on random silliness however it is pretty hard to get the game face on and be serious.

Eh. I don't like Invisibility at will for PCs either.

Unless, of course, the game is of a less serious tone. :smallwink:

PCs can get invisibility at will with 20k for the ring. I suppose it's far more powerful at level 6, but a DC 20 spot check will find an invisible active living creature. Just gives your encounters good spot checks.

[Chilingsworth]

Probably not, since it would lead to a less serious tone. Which I don't like. I mean if you have a serious tone, you can always throw in a random joke or a funny scene to break up the pacing. When you character concept is based on random silliness however it is pretty hard to get the game face on and be serious.

Eh. I don't like Invisibility at will for PCs either.

I don't know... subverting the usual silliness of that creature could lead to an interesting character.

I can't challenge your second point, though.

EDIT: It would have to be converted to 3.5 from its current 3.0, though.

[AuraTwilight]

Hell yea I would.

[Vizzerdrix]

Not only would I allow it, I'd demand it.

[Khatoblepas]

It's not that bad. 3 RHD and 3 LA, and by RAW, the racial casting doesn't stack with any actual sorcerer levels.

Uh, no.


A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

It's actually kind of weak, since it's getting a few minor stat boosts, three levels of sorcerer, and 6+Int skill points with a limited skill list for three levels. It might be fun to play if you knocked the LA down a point or two, but at level 6? A Sorcerer 6 would be getting 3rd level spells, and the Cheshire Cat isn't really statted out for spellcasting, Combat, or skills, regardless of how many neat things it gets.

For more bang for your buck, a Spellwarped Human would be better (with LA buyoff), a Primordial Half-Giant would be even better (complete with it's own at-will Invisibility and stat boosts for just +1 LA!).

Yeah, it's acceptable, just... really weak.

[D4rtagnan]

I had a tibitt that pretty much did the same thing...sort of. I was playing an PC that every other PC thought was just a random cat they found in a dark lords castle.....I told them I was sitting in on the game, while debating if I want to join or not.

[Morcleon]

Uh, no.



It's actually kind of weak, since it's getting a few minor stat boosts, three levels of sorcerer, and 6+Int skill points with a limited skill list for three levels. It might be fun to play if you knocked the LA down a point or two, but at level 6? A Sorcerer 6 would be getting 3rd level spells, and the Cheshire Cat isn't really statted out for spellcasting, Combat, or skills, regardless of how many neat things it gets.

For more bang for your buck, a Spellwarped Human would be better (with LA buyoff), a Primordial Half-Giant would be even better (complete with it's own at-will Invisibility and stat boosts for just +1 LA!).

Yeah, it's acceptable, just... really weak.

Oh, does it? I stand corrected. :smalltongue:

But neither a spellwarped human or a primordial half-giant are cats, are they now? It would probably be fine at LA +1, seeing as you already have RHD to deal with.

[killem2]

is this in an actual book some where?

[Kuulvheysoon]

is this in an actual book some where?

Nah, it was one of WotC's April Fool's articles (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c).

[nedz]

I used this for an Iron Chef entry. It didn't go down well :smallbiggrin:
I think it's something you either love or hate.

I would allow it in the right game, but not the current one because that has the requirement Race: Dwarf.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I used this for an Iron Chef entry. It didn't go down well :smallbiggrin:
I think it's something you either love or hate.

I would allow it in the right game, but not the current one because that has the requirement Race: Dwarf.

What on earth are you talking about? Shadowblade (ToM) is the current Secret Ingredient, and it is in no way a dwarf-only PrC.

[silverwolfer]

current game, not current iron chef.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Well, I clearly rolled a natural 1 on my Reading Comprehension check.

Apologies to nedz.

[Pickford]

Well, I clearly rolled a natural 1 on my Reading Comprehension check.

Apologies to nedz.

Natural 1's and 20's on skill checks aren't auto-fail/success....

[Kuulvheysoon]

Natural 1's and 20's on skill checks aren't usually auto-fail/success....

Fixed that for you, friend. You might want to review UMD.

[silverwolfer]

He wasn't using a skill, he was attacking and missed badly.

[Greenish]

Fixed that for you, friend. You might want to review UMD.Nat 1 isn't automatic fail for UMD, either.

[only1doug]

Fixed that for you, friend. You might want to review UMD.

You might like to review UMD :smallbiggrin:


Nat 1 isn't automatic fail for UMD, either.

Correct, If you roll a 1 and the skill check is a failure then bad stuff happens.

[only1doug]

Cheshire Cat
<Snip>
Would you allow one of those in your group by a player character?

OK, Lets Break it down a Little:

Cheshire Cats as PCs
Cheshire Cat
Small Fey (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#feyType)
Speed: 30 ft.
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.

Special Qualities: Controlled invisibility, DR 5/cold iron, low-light vision

Abilities:
Str: Special, see the Second columb of Monster PCs ability scores (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#abilityScoresforMonsterPCs)
Dex +6
Con +0
Int +0
Wis +2
Cha +4

Racial Feats: Eschew Materials (B), Weapon Finesse (B)

Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +3

Controlled Invisibility (Su): A Cheshire cat can become wholly or partially invisible at will. Whenever it uses this ability, it can choose the precise portions of its body that become invisible. If it chooses to leave any portion of its body visible, it gains partial concealment (20% miss chance); otherwise it has total concealment (50% miss chance). Activating this ability or changing the degree of concealment it grants is a standard action. A Cheshire cat often chooses to leave only its smile, which is unusually wide and rather unfeline, visible.

3 Racial Hit dice as a Fey (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#feyType) which grant spellcasting as a 3rd-level sorcerer. It prefers illusions and enchantments but avoids necromancy spells.

A Cheshire cat has skill points equal to 6 + Int modifier (minimum 1) x (HD + 3).

Skills:
A Cheshire cat receives a +4 racial bonus on Climb, Hide, Jump, and Move Silently checks.
*In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, its Hide bonus rises to +8.
For running jumps, its Jump bonus is +8.
Like a normal cat, it also receives a +8 racial bonus on Balance checks and uses its Dexterity modifier for Climb and Jump checks.

Feats: A Cheshire cat gains feats as though it were a humanoid.



Fey Racial hitdice with sorcerer casting attached are better than sorcerer levels (much better)
Eschew Materials and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats

Dex, Wis, Cha bonuses for str penalty
Invisibilty at will (not defined as to whether attacking ends the invisibility, something the GM should decide, I'd go for yes as the cheshire cat is not renowned for attack while remaining invisible.)

DR 5 / cold Iron - not overpowered.

All in all I'd say that this isn't too powerful, if LA buyoff is allowed it still won't be able to do so until ECL15, 20 and 22.

[hymer]

Maybe for a one-shot I'd be okay with it, if it's light-hearted enough. In an actual campaign my players and I would get tired of it pretty soon, and it certainly doesn't belong in just any atmosphere, such as the one I usually try to build.

[nedz]

Well, I clearly rolled a natural 1 on my Reading Comprehension check.

Apologies to nedz.

I think that was a critical fumble :smalltongue:

The Iron Chef competition in question was over a year ago.

[Fouredged Sword]

The Pixie is a +4 LA race with all the time invisibility. No RHD, great stat enhancements, and flight. I would bump the LA down to 2 on the cat.

[ericgrau]

EDIT @^: The racial HD doesn't count because it is actually a little better than sorcerer levels. But otherwise I can see the point.

Without opposable thumbs and with stackable innate casting they are almost forced to be sorcerers.

LA 3 on a caster seems fair for constant greater invisibility, plus a little DR and stats. Effectively it's greater invis because it doesn't say it works like the spell. I could almost see it as LA 2, and in a high or even moderately high optimization group LA 2 may be better. I usually don't think LA buyoff works properly, but this is a good candidate because invisibility won't be so hot at high levels and it is the only major thing he gets for his LA.

So the LA is at least fair. Don't ruin the only major benefit he gets for that high LA by suddenly giving everything extra spot. For that matter spot is not the right skill. It is a DC 20 check to notice he's somewhere in the room, DC 40 to actually find his square, and even then the monster only sees some dust getting kicked up; he still has total concealment at DC 40. The proper skill is listen, where the DCs are only 0 and 20 for the same thing. Not only that, many monsters tend to take it so you don't have to do extra prep work bending the entire universe against the poor PC; he will be challenged one time or another. In either case if he is not engaging in vigorous motion and noise, such as running or casting, he may add his hide and move silently checks to those DCs. The silent spell feat may be incredibly useful for him.

Shorter answer: Ya, it looks fine.