50 000 created minions per day! Does it work like that ?!

[Ballini]

Hi, so in one of my games I play a level 1 Sorcerer, Level 4 Bard, level 1 Favored Soul.
He is a really weird guy and now he wants to become an Effigy Master (a Prestige Class from the Complete Arcane)
He has the necessary Skills and Feats. (or will have them by level 7)


So here are my Questions:

1. The Effigy can be (among other things) any Vermin. And it only loses those Extraordinary Special Attacks that allow a save that is constitution based.
What would happen if i build an Effigy of an Great Old Master Neogi (Monster Manual 2)

That guy has the Extraordinary ability to spit out little Neogi Spawns.

And here is the Problem, i dont see how the rules forbit my Effigy from doing the same, but i also cannot imagine how he would do it...

So if someone could clear that up for me, i would be most gratefull.

2. Since an Effigy is basicly a machine i build, would it be possible to leave some space inside it?
If that was possible it would enable me to do 2 things:
1. Store my stuff in my Effigy.
2. Given a big enough Effigy i could hide myself inside and use it as a tank. (sure i would have to solfe the breathing problem, but as an Effigy Master i can craft wondrous items anyways..)


3. Now that i think about it, if the effigy can somehow spit spawn, would those Spawns be Effigys or normal Spawn?

So yeah, thats basically my Problem.
thanks for reading and hopefully answering.
-Benjamin Babtist Baldebert Ballini.

[Vizzerdrix]

:smallconfused:

Firstly: Always talk something like this over with your DM. Funny little tricks like this can otherwise lead to concussions.

1- It is listed as an 1) EX special attack that 2) doesn't allow a saving throw. It keeps it, I'd say.

2-No. Nothing in the class says you can do this. Think of it this way, that space is full of parts, just like any other machine. What happens to a toaster if you take out all the parts?

Look up the siege crab and Tendriculos entry in A&EG for internal mounts.

3- The ability doesn't say they spit spawn that share the great old one's templates, but that wouldn't be too far of a stretch. On the other hand "Effigy" is an acquired template, not an inherited one, so I'd have to say yes on ROC, but no on RAW.

[Chilingsworth]

Also, Neogi were reprinted in Lords of Madness. Great old masters are abberations, now. Don't know if that makes a difference.

Also, two things:

1. The great old master entry doesn't say anything about the creature having any control over the spawn it spits out. So, yeah, your effigy might spit spawn, but they'd probably be as likely to attack you as not.

2. The description of the great old master also states that the spawn inside it eventually destroy it. So, such an effigy might well be a disposable minion, at best.

[Ballini]

Also, Neogi were reprinted in Lords of Madness. Great old masters are abberations, now. Don't know if that makes a difference.

Also, two things:

1. The great old master entry doesn't say anything about the creature having any control over the spawn it spits out. So, yeah, your effigy might spit spawn, but they'd probably be as likely to attack you as not.

2. The description of the great old master also states that the spawn inside it eventually destroy it. So, such an effigy might well be a disposable minion, at best.


Well he does not have any control over them, if they are not Effigy that is.

About 2. The problem with that is, they eat his... well organs.. flesh and all...
which is kind of hard to do with no flesh to eat.


But even if i have not Control over them the Kampain is all about a War against an army of orks who is a few hundret thousand strong.
So just putting that guy somewhere and giving him the order to spit out spawns for the next 24 hours would propably stop that army...
but also destroy all crops i guess...


So their useability,stands and falls with the question of them beeing effigys or not...



Back to my other plan, would i be able to use an Effigy of a creature with the Swallow whole ability?

I mean could i construct the stomach in a way that would not kill me over time but instead be comfortable?



That is the problem, in case of the Spawns the rules say yes, the logic says no.
In case of the Stomach thingy, ths rules say no, the logic says yes...


dnd ^_^

Edit: Aberration, Dragons, Animals, Magical Beasts, Giants, Humanoids, Monstreous Humanoids and Vermin are all fair game for creating Effigys.

You could even template the **** out of them, like creating a half dragon half celestial, half findish, vampire, effigy gnome.

I would colour him blue and call him... papa smurf..

[Ballini]

Since the Effigy is neutral, could i make it a half celestial, and if so, would the spawn be celestial as well? (hence forced to be of non evil alignment?)

[Toliudar]

While I can find no RAW for preventing the application of templates to effigies, I wouldn't allow it. Otherwise, why NOT add the Paragon Creature, Celestial, etc etc templates to any effigy?

Also, the difficulty with the Grand Old Master effigy is that the spawn are explicitly hatching from eggs laid in the Grand Old Master by adult neogi. Where are the eggs coming from?

[Ballini]

While I can find no RAW for preventing the application of templates to effigies, I wouldn't allow it. Otherwise, why NOT add the Paragon Creature, Celestial, etc etc templates to any effigy?

Also, the difficulty with the Grand Old Master effigy is that the spawn are explicitly hatching from eggs laid in the Grand Old Master by adult neogi. Where are the eggs coming from?

It does say so in the Flavor, but not in the rules...

I always thought that rules trumph flavor

[Chilingsworth]

It does say so in the Flavor, but not in the rules...

I always thought that rules trumph flavor

Yeah, when they conflict. But if the flavor says "can't made effigies of templated critters," and the rules don't say anything on the matter, there's no conflict. The rules would have to explicitly say "you can make effigies of templated critters," for there to be a conflict.

[Ballini]

Yeah, when they conflict. But if the flavor says "can't made effigies of templated critters," and the rules don't say anything on the matter, there's no conflict. The rules would have to explicitly say "you can make effigies of templated critters," for there to be a conflict.

I actually ment the whole:
Effigies keep Ex attacks that grant no save. -Rule

Combined with the:
Flavor of the eggs of other Insects beeing the source of the attack...

[Chilingsworth]

I actually ment the whole:
Effigies keep Ex attacks that grant no save. -Rule

Combined with the:
Flavor of the eggs of other Insects beeing the source of the attack...

Ah. Yeah, that's a rule's/flavor conflict, for sure.

Sure, a great old master effigy could be an interesting minion maker. As you said, handy to drop behind enemy lines and let the spawn eat everything.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unless your DM is slavishly, mindlessly devoted to RAW, he's almost certainly going to either say that the GOM neogi effigy won't be able to spit spawn or that you'll have to make "ammo" by crafting effigies of neogi spawn.

Crunch usually trumps fluff. In some rare instances, however, A DM will compare the fluff and the crunch and decide that one simply doesn't work without the other. It's a cute little TO trick, but it'll never fly in an actual game.

[Ballini]

Well I actually just want him to say: "Its a machine, it does not work like the real thing."
So that i can build an Effigy with the swallow whole Ability to use as a tank...
Sind my guy has really low health, i want him to live inside a bigger guy.

And if an Effigy does not produce Eggs, if i dont build them, it wond produze acid either, if i dont build it...

what do you guys think, might that argument fly?

(because i actually dont want to break the game with 50 000 insects per day...)

[Chilingsworth]

Well, for what it's worth, using an effigy of a creature with swallow whole to be used as a means of transport seems reasonible to me. However, You might have a problem directing its movement, though. Either it's mouth will be closed (so you can't see out of it,) Or, it's mouth is open, in which case you're still quite exposed.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Question: if you're going to spend several thousand gold on this, why not just get an apparatus of kwalish? Magic lobster-mecha ftw!

Just plop 2 effigies of halflings in there to drive for you and you've got yourself a hands-free ride. Just pop out and cast when necessary and outfit it with gear.

[Chilingsworth]

Question: if you're going to spend several thousand gold on this, why not just get an apparatus of kwalish? Magic lobster-mecha ftw!

Umm, other than the fact that its inferior to an intelligently chosen effigy in just about every way? :smallconfused:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Umm, other than the fact that its inferior to an intelligently chosen effigy in just about every way? :smallconfused:

He has a particular purpose in mind. This device fits that purpose. His next best bet is an effigy seige crab or an effigy tendriculous that he rides ala A&EG.

What he really wants is probably a customized vehicle, using the A&EG rules for building a vehicle, that's piloted by an effigy.

[Ballini]

I just looked it up, an Apparatus of the Crab, as it is calles now, costs 90 000 to buy.
So creating one would be 45 000 and would require a caster level of 19.

Since i am talking about a level 7 Charakter, thats not really my best option.

Also, for example a Remorhaz has 7 HD so that would be exactly my caster level (due to , Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Arcane))
so i could create an effigy of one.
Creating a Remorhaz effigy would cost 10 000 gold for its huge body and another 1000 per HD so 17 000 and 560 XP.

That is not only a lot less than the Apparatus its also more usefull for my purposes, the Effigy can see for it self, (so it can follow the group if i tell him to) he is faster by 10 feet, can burrow to get me out of harms way, and his AC is higher by 2 (due to beeing an Effigy)

Also since i am creating it, there should be (arguably) a way to see through his eyes...
Even if thats not possible i can just install 2 aspect mirrors (complete scoundrel) for another 8000 gold and would still pay less than for the Crab...

[Alienist]

Eberron has an expanded list of homunculi if you want to see through your construct's eyes. Also rules for upgrading them (basically 2000gp per hit dice)

[Ballini]

Eberron has an expanded list of homunculi if you want to see through your construct's eyes. Also rules for upgrading them (basically 2000gp per hit dice)

Yeah, he is pretty strict about what books to use in his campaign.
We are only allowed the core rules, the completes and the monster manuals 1-4


But aside from that, i still thank you kindly for your idea.

[Zherog]

I just looked it up, an Apparatus of the Crab, as it is calles now, costs 90 000 to buy.
So creating one would be 45 000 and would require a caster level of 19.

The caster level listed on the item isn't a pre-requisite to making the item; if you have the feats and can supply the spells, you can make the item.

[Ballini]

The caster level listed on the item isn't a pre-requisite to making the item; if you have the feats and can supply the spells, you can make the item.

Wait, what really? Where does it say so?!
I mean with the right Ability scores and Scrolls you can pretty much cast any Spelllevel, right?

[ArcturusV]

Well I actually just want him to say: "Its a machine, it does not work like the real thing."
So that i can build an Effigy with the swallow whole Ability to use as a tank...
Sind my guy has really low health, i want him to live inside a bigger guy.

And if an Effigy does not produce Eggs, if i dont build them, it wond produze acid either, if i dont build it...

what do you guys think, might that argument fly?

(because i actually dont want to break the game with 50 000 insects per day...)

So if I'm getting this right... you're trying to suggest something you know is really cheesy and broken so that something which isn't intended within RAW can be slipped past with no complaints? I mean that's what it sounds like. Some DMs tricks like that can easily work. So it's not outside the realm of possibility that you could slip that by him. But if he's a sharp DM he's going to see that (And even if he's not he's going to figure it out about 2 seconds after you unveil your master plan's results). You might get it and think you slipped it past him when in reality he's just being devious or doesn't give a damn. Honestly there are other weird, directly printed stuff that can do a better job of keeping you protected and in the fight at the same time. So he might not give a damn about it.

So rather than trying to find something Broken so you can pull a fast one on him (From the sound of it), just be up front. Say: "Hey, I want a tank. Let me make a giant mecha octopus and ride it around" or something similar.

But if you do try to pull a fast one on him, and he does figure it out (Probably within the first session after you do it), that's where things like books and fists start flying.

[Ballini]

So if I'm getting this right... you're trying to suggest something you know is really cheesy and broken so that something which isn't intended within RAW can be slipped past with no complaints? I mean that's what it sounds like. Some DMs tricks like that can easily work. So it's not outside the realm of possibility that you could slip that by him. But if he's a sharp DM he's going to see that (And even if he's not he's going to figure it out about 2 seconds after you unveil your master plan's results). You might get it and think you slipped it past him when in reality he's just being devious or doesn't give a damn. Honestly there are other weird, directly printed stuff that can do a better job of keeping you protected and in the fight at the same time. So he might not give a damn about it.

So rather than trying to find something Broken so you can pull a fast one on him (From the sound of it), just be up front. Say: "Hey, I want a tank. Let me make a giant mecha octopus and ride it around" or something similar.

But if you do try to pull a fast one on him, and he does figure it out (Probably within the first session after you do it), that's where things like books and fists start flying.

Yeah, about that... it seems i get my army of Effigie Spawns...
He actually welcomed the idea, because the Battlefields he has planned for us are so packed with enemies, that a few hundret thousand guys with 1 hp each are actually just giving us a fighting chance...

I created a Half Dragon celestial Great Old Master Neogi. To force the spawns, who inherit the celestial part, to be good aligned.

Then we realized that those good Spawns would actually get a breath attack each, so it was either, an army of tiny celestial dragon critters with resistances and breath attacks. Who cannot be mind controlled.

Or an army of little effigies that have not resistances or breathattacks, but follow my orders to the letter.

Well i now have an effigy army, and he has an Army of a few hundret thousand Orks, Dragons, and high level Casters...
Somehow i dont feel overpowered anymore...


I wonder what he would have done to us if I did not stumble upon this..
He does tend to create opstacles that he does not know how to survive just to challenge us.

[ArcturusV]

Sounds fun. :smallbiggrin: I suppose that's always the danger with playing a game like that to get what you want... that you might get stuck with what you didn't really want and put in a position where you need it.

[Ballini]

Sounds fun. :smallbiggrin: I suppose that's always the danger with playing a game like that to get what you want... that you might get stuck with what you didn't really want and put in a position where you need it.

I guess so, i mean up to now his main target was our Leader.
A female Palladin who excelled at somehow surviving strange odds. (She is unwordly good at rolling twenties... its like every three rolls she gets a 20...or at least it feels like it)

But when the DM shouts: "Thats it! I have to kill that Bard!" You just know something is wrong...

Well i guess he hates how i created an Army of Mephits by getting one as a Familiar.
The way we interpreted the rules, the Mephit is not summoned by a summon Monster spell, so he does not loose his ability to summon Mephits, who in turn can summon Mephits...


So yeah in just one campaign i created 2 ways of getting an army at low levels... i guess he does have to kill that Bard, before he gets another idea.
^^


(the mephit thing was the reason i wanted something save to crawl into...)



Something tells me i might have a really hard time surviving the next session.
(He will not outright kill me, thats not his style, he wants to be challenged by his playes, as he challenges them, but i bet he has some nasty suprises for Ballini...)
So wish me luck...

[TuggyNE]

The way we interpreted the rules, the Mephit is not summoned by a summon Monster spell, so he does not loose his ability to summon Mephits, who in turn can summon Mephits...

The mephit summoned is, of course, unable to summon more. So you have a 25% chance of having two mephits for an hour instead of only one.

That's not very game-breaking, if you follow the rules.

[Ballini]

The mephit summoned is, of course, unable to summon more. So you have a 25% chance of having two mephits for an hour instead of only one.

That's not very game-breaking, if you follow the rules.

Wait doesnt the text say and i quote:
Once per day, a mephit can attempt to summon another mephit of the same variety, much as though casting a summon monster spell, but with only a 25% chance of success. Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers the summons that day. A mephit that has just been summoned cannot use its own summon ability for 1 hour.

So there is not Mention of the summoned Mephit dissapearing, and it says that the summoned Mephit has to wait for an hour before he can summon, so he CAN summon, right?

[qwertyu63]

Wait doesnt the text say and i quote:
Once per day, a mephit can attempt to summon another mephit of the same variety, much as though casting a summon monster spell, but with only a 25% chance of success. Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers the summons that day. A mephit that has just been summoned cannot use its own summon ability for 1 hour.

So there is not Mention of the summoned Mephit dissapearing, and it says that the summoned Mephit has to wait for an hour before he can summon, so he CAN summon, right?

If he's still there after the hour's up (which he won't be, the duration of summon monster is in rounds), then sure.

[Zherog]

Wait, what really? Where does it say so?!
I mean with the right Ability scores and Scrolls you can pretty much cast any Spelllevel, right?

If caster level was a requirement, it would be listed in the requirements section. Compare these two:



Strong evocation and transmutation; CL 19th; Craft Wondrous Item, animate objects, continual flame, creator must have 8 ranks in the Knowledge (architecture and engineering) skill; Price 90,000 gp;Weight 500 lb.

Note that after each entry, there's a semicolon while entries with multiple items have a comma between items.

Now look at this item:



Faint abjuration; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, resistance, creator’s caster level must be at least three times the cloak’s bonus; Price 1,000 gp (+1), 4,000 gp (+2), 9,000 gp (+3), 16,000 gp (+4), 25,000 gp (+5);Weight 1 lb.

This item does have a caster level requirement, so it's listed in the "requirements" section along with the feat and spell required to make the item.

Further, there's a FAQ entry about it, for whatever you think of the FAQ. Finally, when WotC redesigned their stat block format, that makes it even more clear that the caster level and the requirements to make the item are not connected.

[Ballini]

If he's still there after the hour's up (which he won't be, the duration of summon monster is in rounds), then sure.

But if the summoned Mephit disappears after a few rounds, why go to the effort of putting the whole: "After one hour" thing in?
Why not just write: Cannot summon?

I mean is there even a way to extend the round duration of summon monster to over an hour?

[Pickford]

Wait doesnt the text say and i quote:
Once per day, a mephit can attempt to summon another mephit of the same variety, much as though casting a summon monster spell, but with only a 25% chance of success. Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers the summons that day. A mephit that has just been summoned cannot use its own summon ability for 1 hour.

So there is not Mention of the summoned Mephit dissapearing, and it says that the summoned Mephit has to wait for an hour before he can summon, so he CAN summon, right?

The important text to be quoting on this is the text on summons:

PHB: 173
"A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have"

Edit: You are right that the additional text indicating a summoned mephit can't use its own summon ability for 1 hour is extraneous, because the mephit can 'never' use it's own summon ability if it was summoned.

[Ballini]

The important text to be quoting on this is the text on summons:

PHB: 173
"A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have"

Edit: You are right that the additional text indicating a summoned mephit can't use its own summon ability for 1 hour is extraneous, because the mephit can 'never' use it's own summon ability if it was summoned.

So i am not really sure about how this works with DnD but would this be Magic, another Wizards game, the ruling on the Card would break the general ruling.

In this case that would mean, the ruling on the Mephit page, overrules the general ruling for summoned creatures...

[Toliudar]

This is not a case of "specific vs general". The summoned monster entry is an alteration to the way in which ALL monsters summon other monsters. To do otherwise would mean having to reproduce all relevant rules whenever a specific creature's ability is mentioned.

Also, a challenge with your 'swallow whole tank' concept is that you lose line of effect to everything outside of your own effigy. It then becomes difficult to do anything other than steer it around by shouting instructions from inside.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The summon ability of mephits (and other creatures with summoning ability) is -not- equivalent to summon monster. It is its own special ability. There's an entry for it in the MM glossary. The reason for the 1 hour limit to using their own summoning ability is that the summon special ability's duration is 1 hour.

[Pickford]

Kelb: No it's not summon monster...but it is an innate summoning ability.

[Dr Bwaa]

Well as far as "how do I ride in a tank" the answer is easy, and it doesn't require Effigy Master or questionable interpretations of the rules. It requires a single item called an Oozerider Amulet, which is available from the Arms & Equipment Guide (iirc). It does what you think it does. You get to be this dude:
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg30/scaled.php?server=30&filename=dnd20watercolor20riding.jpg&res=medium

Use a gelatinous cube or another transparent ooze so you can see where you're going.

Also, summoned creatures cannot summon other creatures. It's so true that Wizards apparently felt like they needed to put it in the rules for demons summoning each other twice.

Summoned creatures automatically return whence they came after 1 hour.
This is not complicated if you read the rules.

[Ballini]

well apearently it was complicated enough to get this little discussion going.

Also thanks for the tipp with the ooze thingy but its not the books i am allowed to use for this campaign...

[Kelb_Panthera]

Kelb: No it's not summon monster...but it is an innate summoning ability.

It is not a conjuration (summoning) effect. That's the important distinction here.

"Much as though casting a summon monster spell" doesn't make it in any way equivalent to summon monster. It's just highlighting a similar effect for comparison.