3.5 lvl 15 your fav ideas, no magic

[Martial_law]

Im going to be in a lvl 15 campaign w/o magic, I want to hear what your favorite builds are for either min/max or story play!

[Malak'ai]

So no magic what so ever? Or you're not wanting to rely on magic?

[8wGremlin]

Psion - with no magic, Psions rule supreme

[Martial_law]

No magic allowed

[Vaz]

Totemist or Warblade.

[GnomeGninjas]

Psion - with no magic, Psions rule supreme

This is probably your best option.

[limejuicepowder]

Do you mean no spellcasters, or literally no magic; i.e., only mundane equipment as well?

Either way, I don't think "play a psionic class" is really going to help - it's (probably) not in the spirit of what the DM is asking, and will only get you some raised eyebrows and dirty looks.

As usual, ToB is the way to go. Crusader or Warblade, as they are the least supernatural. A factotum without spells would pretty decent too, and you can try to trade in the spell casting for something good - bonus feats or something.

Or you can try to sneak some psionics with a warforged psychic warrior. PW have lots of transformation type abilities, starting with expansion, so now you are.....Optimus Prime. make up a good enough reason and most DM's will let it fly.

[kaaskeizer]

dragon wrought half iron kobold golem artificer? (needs more intelligence though)

[herrhauptmann]

Saph's Horizon Tripper build for the start. Add in ToB as appropriate to your understanding and DM's comfort.

Despite the prereqs, I also like Planar Champion (MotP). In a game with no magic, some things like see invisibility or strike ethereal become less useful. But they're still cool.

Karsite race. It's a technically an alternate human, so you still keep the feat and skill points. Perhaps reduce the LA a bit since a bunch of the features are less useful: SR, Magic-draining attack.

[Answerer]

I don't think any character without magic can qualify as 15th-level. Sure, he might have 15 HD, and might require the XP of a 15th-level character to gain another, and he might be entitled to 15th-level WBL, but he simply cannot contribute as a 15th-level character is supposed to.

And having an entire campaign built around the idea simply will not work. There are few, if any, CR 15 encounters that can be beaten without magic.

3.5 is one of the highest-magic systems ever devised. You cannot simply strip away magic and pretend the system still works: it does not. You are massively better off finding a new system that is designed from the ground up to support no-magic, because 3.5 can't do it.

[Vaz]

dragon wrought half iron kobold golem artificer? (needs more intelligence though)

Half Golem has a LA of -- rendering it unuseable, does it not?

[DeltaEmil]

And having an entire campaign built around the idea simply will not work. There are few, if any, CR 15 encounters that can be beaten without magic.There's always level 16 NPC classes like commoner, adept, noble, warrior and expert, or tier 5-classes for enemies.

[Spuddles]

I don't think any character without magic can qualify as 15th-level. Sure, he might have 15 HD, and might require the XP of a 15th-level character to gain another, and he might be entitled to 15th-level WBL, but he simply cannot contribute as a 15th-level character is supposed to.

And having an entire campaign built around the idea simply will not work. There are few, if any, CR 15 encounters that can be beaten without magic.

3.5 is one of the highest-magic systems ever devised. You cannot simply strip away magic and pretend the system still works: it does not. You are massively better off finding a new system that is designed from the ground up to support no-magic, because 3.5 can't do it.

that's an over reaction

ToB, VoP, half minotaur dragonborn water orcs should have a good go of it. With fist of the forest you get half way decent ac.

Samurai intimidate abuse, uber charge for damage. Swordsage crinti shadow marauder is pure Ex shadow pounce. 3x shadow pounce with shadow blade & craven should drop most MM beasties. Make sure to get a rogue sub level that lets you crit undead.

[hymer]

There are few, if any, CR 15 encounters that can be beaten without magic.

Could be the GM is putting them up against NPCs who abide by the same restrictions. The only problem then would be healing, which could be houseruled to work.

[Keltaris]

Totemist or Wild Shape Ranger going into Master of Many Forms.

You could also pick up VoP while you're at it.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

I don't think any character without magic can qualify as 15th-level. Sure, he might have 15 HD, and might require the XP of a 15th-level character to gain another, and he might be entitled to 15th-level WBL, but he simply cannot contribute as a 15th-level character is supposed to.

And having an entire campaign built around the idea simply will not work. There are few, if any, CR 15 encounters that can be beaten without magic.

3.5 is one of the highest-magic systems ever devised. You cannot simply strip away magic and pretend the system still works: it does not. You are massively better off finding a new system that is designed from the ground up to support no-magic, because 3.5 can't do it.As others have said, you're overreacting. A no-magic level 15 character might not fit into a traditional game especially well (TOB and so on aside), but if there's a no-magic rule this clearly isn't a traditional game. If the DM's issuing a "no-magic" requirement on characters, I'd say it's safe to assume he has some plan for making a game work with such characters whether that means having most enemies be NPCs with the same restriction or having enemies be a lower CR to compensate (not that CR is a perfect indicator, of course) or something else all together.

As for the actual topic, here are a few random ideas:
Wildshape Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 10 (Complete Champion has a few options to swap out a ranger's spellcasting you could use. Alternately, just don't use it or offer to the DM to give it up, possibly for some minor advantage.) This one gives you very good versatility from the sheer number of forms you can take (especially for a game with no magic). This is, of course, assuming Wild Shape is still allowed, it is SU so it might not be in certain definitions of "no magic".

Scout 3 or 4/Ranger for the rest (again, find a way to make the ranger non-magical) Take the Swift Hunter feat to stack the two classes' levels for Skirmish and Favored Enemy. Take Improved Skirmish (extra +2d6 damage and +2 AC if you move 20 ft.) and Greater Manyshot (precision damage applies to all manyshot attacks) and fill your enemies with 3 arrows at +6d6 damage each as a standard action. Travel Devotion would also work great, letting you move as a swift action then full attack with Skirmish activated. (Oh, and with Swift Hunter you can apply skirmish damage to favored enemies that would otherwise be immune so be sure to capitalize by picking things like undead and elementals if they exist in this game.)

Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Master Thrower 1/Whisperknife 1/Whichever Prestige Class you like for the rest - This gets you +14 BAB and the ability (with the right feats and tricks) to throw 14 daggers on a full attack (3 for base attack bonus, plus 3 off-hand for the Two-Weapon Fighting line plus 1 for Rapidshot (from Whisperknife) all times 2 with the Palm Throw thrown weapon trick.) You don't get to apply strength (as per Palm Throw) but there's nothing that says you can't apply intelligence to the damage (with Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike, which never specifies melee attacks) or Sneak Attack (+1d6 per knife plus any you can get from your Whisperknife levels.) It's feat heavy but it should all fit.
Feats: 1: Point-Blank Shot; Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse (bonus); 3: Precise Shot; Fighter 1: Two-Weapon Fighting (bonus); Fighter 2: Weapon Focus (Dagger) (bonus); 6: Your pick (Craven could be great); Master Thrower 1: Quick Draw (bonus); 9: Imporved Two-Weapon Fighting; 12: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting; 15: Your pick

[Psyren]

"No magic" is too vague. Are supernatural abilities allowed? If so, Binder 15* would be my choice. If not, the wild shape builds suggested aren't going to work either.


*Or more accurately, Binder 10/KotSS 5

[JaronK]

I'd probably go with a mounted charger character, mixing Lion Totem Barbarian with Warblade and maybe even Fighter. Use a Lance and Spirited Charge, ride some really big powerful mount, and go to town.

Maybe even be a Half Minotaur Water Orc for pure strength.

Or, if we're going with big guys, what about a War Hulk? In a world without magic, few things could compare to a War Hulk/Hulking Hurler.

JaronK

[Randomguy]

If supernatural abilities are allowed, I'd go with totemist.

Otherwise I'd probably do a charger, a rogue, or Jack B. Quick (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick)

[JaronK]

I'd probably go with a mounted charger character, mixing Lion Totem Barbarian with Warblade and maybe even Fighter. Use a Lance and Spirited Charge, ride some really big powerful mount, and go to town.

Maybe even be a Half Minotaur Water Orc for pure strength.

Or, if we're going with big guys, what about a War Hulk? In a world without magic, few things could compare to a War Hulk/Hulking Hurler.

JaronK

[Kazyan]

This is your monthly reminder that Spirit Totems are supernatural abilities.

[ericgrau]

Assuming no magic, spells, SLAs...

Half-dragon ogre tripper/grappler/door-breaker. Or a more high op race with high strength and large size or bigger.

[Spuddles]

"No magic" is too vague. Are supernatural abilities allowed? If so, Binder 15* would be my choice. If not, the wild shape builds suggested aren't going to work either.


*Or more accurately, Binder 10/KotSS 5

Agreed. Not enough to work with, given how many different ways you can say "magic" in 3.5


I'd probably go with a mounted charger character, mixing Lion Totem Barbarian with Warblade and maybe even Fighter. Use a Lance and Spirited Charge, ride some really big powerful mount, and go to town.

Maybe even be a Half Minotaur Water Orc for pure strength.

Or, if we're going with big guys, what about a War Hulk? In a world without magic, few things could compare to a War Hulk/Hulking Hurler.

JaronK

That's the spirit!

[Urpriest]

Could be the GM is putting them up against NPCs who abide by the same restrictions. The only problem then would be healing, which could be houseruled to work.

Still doesn't work. Attack bonus scaling is nonmagical, while AC scaling is magical.

On that point, OP: most DMs who run non-magical campaigns give you some sort of numerical bonuses to make up for what the game expects you to have. What sorts of bonuses is your DM giving?

[Phelix-Mu]

Is heartfire fanner based on magic? I've only read about it second hand, but sounded like a slightly less magical bard emphasized on boosting the skills of other party members by lending feats.

Depending on how badly bard is nerfed by this (no inspire courage?), then some types of bardic or related dips might work. Any access to buffing will be supremely valuable, so whatever types of abilities do actually work will be key in determining what to pick.

Also, under the premise that there is no magic (i.e., mundanes-only setting), we can explore the inflated value of skill optimization, or what is left of that field of op after removing magic. Does Savant class from Dragon Compendium rely on magic?

Knowledge Devotion sounds like a good option. Combine with Collector of Stories and an Int-build something or other (ranger?...not the best set of skills...hmmm) for some nice bonus damage in a world where no one gets much of anything along those lines.

It would be weird if the DM said no magic and then allowed an alternate magic system, like incarnum, binding, shadowcasting, and to a lesser extent psionics.

Anyway, to the OP, we need more info on what the restriction "no magic" means.

[ericgrau]

Still doesn't work. Attack bonus scaling is nonmagical, while AC scaling is magical.

On that point, OP: most DMs who run non-magical campaigns give you some sort of numerical bonuses to make up for what the game expects you to have. What sorts of bonuses is your DM giving?

Except for monsters, which means monsters have defenses and PCs don't. And if the DM scales them back then their defense is too weak and the PCs steamroll them instead. Either way you get rocket tag. Ya, more info would be helpful.

[herrhauptmann]

I'd probably go with a mounted charger character, mixing Lion Totem Barbarian with Warblade and maybe even Fighter. Use a Lance and Spirited Charge, ride some really big powerful mount, and go to town.

Maybe even be a Half Minotaur Water Orc for pure strength.

Or, if we're going with big guys, what about a War Hulk? In a world without magic, few things could compare to a War Hulk/Hulking Hurler.

JaronK
I like to go for Bariaur for my mounted charging needs. They qualify for mounted combat feats like centaurs and certain inevitables, but no racial HD in the newer version of the race. It also means you can do leap attack/shocktrooper without an argument about how you're mounted, but still jumping off your horse.

Hmm, doesn't Warhulk (and hulking hurler) just require large size? If so, you could snag a centaur charger warhulking hurler.
Yes, I know that's a build with TOO much going on, but why not? Or at least, some combo of those features.

[Spuddles]

No magic at level 15 using D&D 3.5 makes no sense, outside of an optimization problem. I would hate to have to DM that.

Of course, it'd be beyond trivial for the DM to simply pass out non-magic master master master work full plate that gives +20 armor bonuses or whatever.

[Yora]

In a game with no magic, I would probably want to try out a Barbarian/spell-less Ranger.

[Eldariel]

Warblade/Eternal Blade with or without some Ranger/Barbarian/Fighter. It's fun anyways.

And yeah, you probably need some kind of a passive AC bonus (maybe BAB to AC too) to keep up, and your DM probably wants to introduce more steps of mastercraftsmanship than just normal and Mw. Those are sorta trivial things tho. Just make sure such matters are handled and it should be fine.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Half-Minotaur Desert Half-Orc, Half-Humans and Humanlike Races, LA Buyoff.
Half-Orc Paragon 1/ Dungeoncrasher Zhentarim Fighter 9/ Warblade or Crusader 5
City Slicker and Bravado flaws
Vow of Poverty, Dreadful Wrath, Menacing Demeanor via the Otyugh Hole, Knock-Back, Imperious Command. Take Nymph's Kiss as one of your bonus exalted feats.

[Lord Il Palazzo]

And yeah, you probably need some kind of a passive AC bonus (maybe BAB to AC too) to keep up, and your DM probably wants to introduce more steps of mastercraftsmanship than just normal and Mw. Those are sorta trivial things tho. Just make sure such matters are handled and it should be fine.It's so trivial, the SRD already has rules for it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm). Suggest these (or a variant) to your DM if you're concerned about the lack of magic AC bonuses.

As for the super masterwork +1 weapons and armor, I've heard of games that do this and it apparently works. Healing potions can be added to a "no magic" game the same way, having the potions be made from non-magical healing herbs and such like. Again, suggest these kind of things to your DM if you don't like these particular implications of a "no magic" setting.

[hymer]

@ Urpriest: We keep talking about in this forum how AC doesn't work anyway. And AB also gets some serious boosting from magic. It wouldn't be optimal, sure, but it's not unworkable with minimal changes, such as dealing with a way to recover hp. There's rules for scaling AC by level, too, isn't there?*
It may well turn into rocket-launcher tag a lot of the time, especially with powerful charge builds, but so does magical campaigns a lot of the time.

*Edit: Lord Il Palazzo above me took the time to look it up and link it.

[Bakkan]

I'd probably try to make a throwing build of some kind. I think 15 is high enough to fit in all of both Master Thrower and Invisible Blade, or you could just take Master Thrower and a bunch of classes that advance Sneak Attack. Throw in a level of Barbarian for Whirling Frenzy (since you likely won't have haste available), and you should be able to toss out a veritable storm of daggers every round. Knowledge Devotion is the way to go here to boost damage to get through DR on your non-Sneak Attack attacks. Let me know if you want a more detailed build and I'll try to make it.

[Diovid]

Go with a changeling (Races of Eberron) charlatan (prestige class from dragon magazine #335), max out social skills and take the interaction skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel.

[Eldariel]

It's so trivial, the SRD already has rules for it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm). Suggest these (or a variant) to your DM if you're concerned about the lack of magic AC bonuses.

As for the super masterwork +1 weapons and armor, I've heard of games that do this and it apparently works. Healing potions can be added to a "no magic" game the same way, having the potions be made from non-magical healing herbs and such like. Again, suggest these kind of things to your DM if you don't like these particular implications of a "no magic" setting.

Healing potions are kinda silly, tho. I much prefer the VP/WP system since it feels more non-magical while healing pots are healing pots.

And yeah, the SRD Defense Bonus exists but it's not quite applicable directly since it's needed in addition to Armor, not instead of, to keep ACs sufficiently high later on (said Defense Bonus variant starts too high and scales too low since it's designed to replace Armor instead of supplementing Armor, and being used in a normal magic game).

[Lord Il Palazzo]

Healing potions are kinda silly, tho. I much prefer the VP/WP system since it feels more non-magical while healing pots are healing pots.

And yeah, the SRD Defense Bonus exists but it's not quite applicable directly since it's needed in addition to Armor, not instead of, to keep ACs sufficiently high later on (said Defense Bonus variant starts too high and scales too low since it's designed to replace Armor instead of supplementing Armor, and being used in a normal magic game).True, but it does give an idea of where AC bonus "should be" for a given level. As is almost always true with SRD variants, it's not perfect but gives a decent starting point if the DM/group wants to go in that direction.

[Alienist]

The Thieves World/Shadowspawn/Sanctuary setting is a low magic setting, maybe buy that for your DM as a late xmas pressie.

Alternatively, you should casually drop to the DM the concept of E6, it allows magic, but only up to third level spells (so magic users are still weak), and progression beyond level 6 is done by buying feats.

There's a reason why pathfinder society stops play at level 12ish, because it is generally acknowlegded that the game starts breaking down past that point.

With no magic, can you kill a dragon? Sure, an ubercharger can do enough damage. What happens when he takes off and starts flying? Oops. Suddenly your level 15 no magic character is gonna suck. Or will he? Properly optimised you can probably do some 'John Carter of Mars' stuff (jumping fifty feet in the air, having massive strength and so forth)

But magic doesn't just ruin combat for everyone else, it also ruins skills and social interactions. (Why talk when you can charm instead?)

Which raises interesting questions about skill monkeys being worthwhile, which begs the question of how high can diplomacy go without magic? (At level 15, with +5 from charisma, and 18 skills ranks, that's an average roll of 33.5)

Could be interesting, but Sanctuary or E6 is probably a better setting.

Magic is notoriously hard to balance, but if balance is the goal, then why not give 4th edition a go? (Don't bother with 5th edition, they've gone back to uber-vancian spellcasting, where spellcasters start off weak but then gain power exponentially).