[3.5P E6] Elan Wilder Gish (EDIT: Almost done!)

[Lonely Tylenol]

EDIT: New questions posted at the top, old information (the original post) spoilered.

Alright, so my character sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=519232) is mostly finished. (I rolled ability scores of 13 STR, 14 DEX, 15 CON, 14 INT, 13 WIS, 15 CHA, and put my 4th-level point into STR.)

Trying to figure out, at this point, what I should do about ability scores. The DM has allowed me to keep the +2 to any one ability score, as long as I give a commensurate -2 to one ability score as well (in keeping with the tradition that PF races, which are generally one +2 ahead of 3.5 races, scale back accordingly). I'm thinking of putting the +2 in STR and the -2 in WIS, killing my ability to gain Psionic Meditation dead--but I'm not certain.

I'm also thinking of taking the Magic-Blooded template for +2 to CHA for -2 to WIS if I do this, effectively tanking my WIS completely (but for the benefit of two relevant scores).

Thoughts on this?

Also: Are there any absolute must-have items for a wilder gish that are easily obtained with 10,000gp starting wealth? I assumed not, and went with the generic loadout of "decent weapon + decent armor + cloak of save bonuses". I know it may be useful to grab a cognizance crystal (no, the more useful options do not exist in this world, per item creation limitations I myself have enforced) and make an item of lots of CHA bonus somewhere down the line, but I can't think of anything that would be an absolute must-have for this sort of character.

So, after more than a year of DMing for my 3.5/PF E6 group, for personal reasons (which have created a great deal of DM fatigue not really related to the group), I'm stepping down, and another player in the group is going to be taking over as DM. Since I'd still love to stay with the group and the game world, however, I'm going to be staying on as a PC--probably as the squire of an important NPC they've recently met, who's looking for a lost MacGuffin. I haven't decided yet if this is the character I want to play (I also have a LG Human Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 1/Crusader 1/Prestige Paladin 1, a NG Elf Wildshape Mystic Ranger 6, a NE Gray Elf Factotum 6, a CN Gray Elf Artificer 5/Alchemist Savant 1, and a CN Thri-Kreen Fighter 1/Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/Warblade 1/Dervish 1 I'd be interested in playing), but this is the only one I've actually had problem building.

See, the thing is, there are a few things that I would like to do with the character: first, I would like to be able to create a 5th-level Astral Construct. (I believe I will be able to unlock Wild Surge +3 with a feat, but if I can't, obviously this is irrelevant.) Ideally, this will function basically as a summonable mount, shaped as a winged pegasus or some equivalent via Craft (sculpting) and either Ectopic Form (Alabaster Aerial) or the Improved Wings option from Menu B, when need be, but also as a legitimate threat unto itself when needed in combat.

Second, I would like to have an attack that is somewhat unique to me (for instance, a weapon that cannot simply be picked up and used the way I do by everyone). For this, I've been considering either a deep crystal quarterstaff (for use with Two-Weapon Fighting) or longspear (for use with reach), or the Claws of the Beast power (again, as a method of getting off multiple attacks). The tactical applications are going to come from Expansion, augmented to 9 points if I can get Wild Surge +3 as a feat, so that I gain two size categories for an hour at a time.

Third, I would like some survivability. For this, I'm considering Vigor combined with Share Pain on a psicrystal, in order to become a sort of unkillable badass. Investing a single point in Vigor with Wild Surge +3 would be 40 combined temporary hit points on my psicrystal, which adds up to a refreshable 40-hit point buffer for 1 power point, which is rather economical. I'm also planning on using the Elan's racial abilities for on-the-fly DR and resistances, and investing a small amount into conventional armor and saves, but not much else.

Finally, I want tactical movement, the freedom of maneuverability, and so on. This one actually seems the easiest to acquire: Dimensional Hop gives you swift action teleportation, and Hustle gives a move action as a swift action--both of which can greatly aid in maneuverability. The Freedom mantle (acquired via Mantled Wilder) offers both of these, plus an untyped 10-foot bonus to move speed and the ability to add my manifester level to my grapple (on top of the grapple bonuses from being Huge), which will keep me from being held down too easily.

The problem I have is that all of this is SUPER power-intensive, and almost none of these powers are on my list! If I was JUST to cover the bases listed above, I'd need the following powers as a bare minimum:
Astral Construct (Shaper 1)
Vigor (Psion/Wilder 1)
Dimension Hop (Freedom 1)
Expansion (Psychic Warrior 1)
Claws of the Beast (Psychic Warrior 1)
Hustle (Psychic Warrior 2)
Share Pain (Psion/Wilder 2)

As a Wilder, I get four powers in six levels (five with a variant that gives Expanded Knowledge), with no way to get the bolded ones on my power list. If I take Hidden Talent at level 1, that gets me to six, and I guess I can take Expanded Knowledge a second time at level 6 to get the seventh and final power (also taking Share Pain in place of a third-level power), but then I'm expending all of my powers and all but one feat on the core abilities, which gives me no opportunity to generalize pre-epic. What's worse, I'm sure there's something I'm missing here, something big and important, that will help me branch out, but being unfamiliar with psionics myself, I'm not really sure what. :smallconfused:

Any tips? Right now I'm looking at a (Magic Blooded) Elan (PF (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/elan)) Wilder (url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/wilder]PF[/url] with the Freedom mantle and Student's Surge variants, starting at level 5 (the standard for a new character at this stage of my game; I expect no exceptions), with the following level progression:
Level 1: Hidden Talent (Astral Construct), Dimension Hop
Level 2: Vigor
Level 3: ???
Level 4: Hustle
Level 5: Expanded Knowledge (Expansion)
Level 6: Expanded Knowledge (Claws of the Beast), Share Pain

Leaving me with one remaining feat (which I CAN'T use for Psionic Meditation).

LIMITATIONS
Sourcebooks: All 3.5 material is allowed (including Dragon Magazine). First-party races, classes and items are allowed from Pathfinder, as is Psionics Unleashed. Whenever there is a class in both versions, use the better version, but always use the Hit Dice and class skill list of the 3.5 version. I shy away from PF feats and outright disallow PF spells and powers (because of source-blindness: things in PF were created without 3.5 in mind, and things in 3.5 were created without PF in mind).
No Flaws: None of my players used them in character creation, and I won't either, in the interest of fairness.
Item Limitations: Starting wealth will be 10,000gp. I have always enforced the E6 item creation guidelines, so if it doesn't involve a 1st- to 3rd-level spell or power (or 4th in the case of Artificers) and can't be made with a CL or ML less than 6 (or 8 for Artificers), or isn't listed here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235754), assume it doesn't exist.
Power Level: This group is built relatively high power compared to the expectations of the game designers (as in, easily outpaces what the designers considered "level-appropriate", as poorly balanced as it was; a solid above-average), but plays closely to the spirit of E6. In other words, don't suggest this:


Spellhoarding Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, Martial Wizard (Conjurer) 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Mindbender 1, using the Draconic Rite of Passage for Charm Person, with Enchantment and Evocation prohibited. Get Collegiate Wizard via a flaw, and get Abrupt Jaunt and Mindsight of course.

Because I won't play it. I'm not looking to outpace my own players.
Miscellany: If I've forgotten to mention something, ask about it and I'll elaborate. :smallsmile:

Thanks!

[Yora]

Obvious solution would be: Don't be a wilder. Wilders are a good class, but rely entirely on using a tiny amount of powers at a very high power level. If you want to use lots of powers, wilder is not the way to go. And if you want to do some gishing, even less so. The only interesting thing about the wilder is the wild surge, which is cool, but directly tied to the fact that you have very few powers.

So I would say, make a psychic warrior.

Complete Psionic has the Anarchic Initiate prestige class, which is a bit like surging for non-wilders, and only requires 8 Ranks in Knowledge (psionics) and Knowledge (planes), and the Overchannel feat, so you can take the 1st level in an E6 game. As a psychic warrior, you would have to find a way to make knowledge (planes) a class skill. I think there is an E6 feat for that, but that one requires already being above 6th level. But I think there are also other ways to do that.

[the_archduke]

Psywar is terrible in E6. You only get one more BA than psion and drastically fewer powers and pp.

You are also going to want to take a third level power at level 6 so you can take 2nd level powers with expanded knowledge into Epic. EK says you get a power one level lower than you can manifest. I believe that means you can't take second level powers without getting a third level one from leveling first.

Bestow power is also nice if you can get +3 wildsurge. With it, you can give yourself 4pp for the cost of 3pp and recharge outside of battle. You will need the enervation endurance feat to capitalize on that trick though.

You forgot that you need a psicrystal to use the share pain/vigor combo most efficiently. You share powers so you only have to manifest vigor once and it hits you and the crystal. So I would take that feat at level 3. Nimble, Hero or Singleminded would be good choices for personality.

[Person_Man]

I would like to be able to create a 5th-level Astral Construct.

I would like to have an attack that is somewhat unique to me

Third, I would like some survivability.

Finally, I want tactical movement, the freedom of maneuverability, and so on.

All 3.5 material is allowed (including Dragon Magazine).


Ok, I see thaso this is going to sound crazy. But have you considered Incarnate, or Totemist/Incarnate?

1) Necrocarnum Circlet bound to your Crown chakra gives you an infinitely replaceable Necrocarnum Zombie (which is actually much better then a normal zombie), with hit dice equal to your Incarnate meldshaper level. So all you need to do is find a Pegasus or whatever, kill it, and now it's your servant forever.

2) Incarnate Weapon soulmeld will give you a +3 magic weapon which can't be destroyed. Dissolving Spittle also gives you a ranged touch attack that deals 4d6 damage. (Better then a Warlock 6). Totemist also has a long list of potent natural weapon options (superior to Claws of the Beast at low levles), plus Flesh to Stone or Save or Stun effects.

3) Incarnate is probably the hardest to kill class out there. Your choice of Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction, bonus hit points, Evasion, Save bonuses, Energy Resistance, miss chance, bonus AC, retributive damage, etc.

4) Astral Vembraces or Airstep Sandals can give you flight. Blink Shirt bound to Totem gives Move Action dimension door. Duskling, being a Chaotic Incarnate, and several soulmelds offer movement speed increases.

And you can gain more essentia and soulmelds (and potentially chakra binds, depending on your DMs reading of Open Least Chakra) with Feats, making it perfect for E6.


If you want to stick with a psionic build, I would just drop the Psychic Warrior powers. Claws of the Beast + Expansion isn't going to be that impressive in an E6 game. I would stick with strait Psion or Psychic Rogue instead.

[Psyren]

He's actually using PF Wilder, which is significantly better.

OP: I would use Warrior's Surge instead for a gish. You lose a power known, but you will repatedly gain temp HP from Hardened Body which will allow you to ignore hits. Even if you enervate, you will lose that same HP and be right back where you started. You'll also be staggered, which still allows you to keep attacking (and since you only have 1 attack anyway, you won't notice the difference.) Effectively, you can surge every round with no drawback - no loss of PP and no loss of attacks.

You're in E6, so powers known aren't a problem - simply keep taking the Extra Power Known and Expanded Knowledge feats, and soon you'll have the repertoire of a psion.

Also - if you have no better weapon to use, note that your surge blast can be used in melee without provoking for 2d6 ranged touch every round.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Obvious solution would be: Don't be a wilder. Wilders are a good class, but rely entirely on using a tiny amount of powers at a very high power level. If you want to use lots of powers, wilder is not the way to go. And if you want to do some gishing, even less so. The only interesting thing about the wilder is the wild surge, which is cool, but directly tied to the fact that you have very few powers.

So I would say, make a psychic warrior.

I was considering Psychic Warrior, because I do get a few extra powers and feats to help me get the ball rolling, and I can Tash it up in a pinch, but there were two things stopping me from doing it: first, I can't do any of the really explosive things I want to do with Wilder, which pretty much requires Wild Surge +3 (if I can get it), like creating a 5th-level Astral Construct, or combining Expansion augments (with Overchannel, I could gain two size categories, or I could manifest it as a swift action if I wasn't able to cast it as a prebuff, but I wouldn't be able to do either with a longer duration). Second is, I wouldn't have the power points to spam my abilities; Wilder not only has triple the power points , but the Wild Surge ability could be used to augment powers without ever using more than the minimum power point reserves (with Wild Surge +2, I could augment Expansion to be a 10 min/lvl power with the bare minimum of 1 power point, and could improve Vigor to 15 Hit Points without ever spending more than one point. With Wild Surge +3 (to be approved, admittedly), Vigor would improve to 20 Hit Points (shared with the Psicrystal for a total of 40), and I would actually be able to augment Bestow Power without spending more than the minimum number of points on it (which could create a reliable power recovery mechanic with Earth Power). With PsyWar, everything has to be manifested at cost (or at +1 with Overchannel), so there is no longevity in it as well.


Complete Psionic has the Anarchic Initiate prestige class, which is a bit like surging for non-wilders, and only requires 8 Ranks in Knowledge (psionics) and Knowledge (planes), and the Overchannel feat, so you can take the 1st level in an E6 game. As a psychic warrior, you would have to find a way to make knowledge (planes) a class skill. I think there is an E6 feat for that, but that one requires already being above 6th level. But I think there are also other ways to do that.

I don't know that the Anarchic Initiate's Chaotic Surge ability actually does anything with any of my powers, since none of them have variable numeric effects. If I were to go this route, which powers would you suggest using with it?


You are also going to want to take a third level power at level 6 so you can take 2nd level powers with expanded knowledge into Epic. EK says you get a power one level lower than you can manifest. I believe that means you can't take second level powers without getting a third level one from leveling first.

I'm under the impression that "can manifest" refers to the "Maximum Power Level Known" column on the class' tables, not the highest-level power they actually know. Could someone please clarify this for me?


Bestow power is also nice if you can get +3 wildsurge. With it, you can give yourself 4pp for the cost of 3pp and recharge outside of battle. You will need the enervation endurance feat to capitalize on that trick though.

I actually saw Bestow Power after I posted, and thought it was so good that I'd be willing to replace Claws of the Beast with it (at least, for a time). I was considering augmenting it with the Earth Power feat (which would get me 4pp for the cost of 2pp, a net gain of about 6pp every 6 castings if I assume I enervate on roughly 1 in 6 times), but Enervation Endurance looks delicious, now that you bring it up. The math is slightly better on my method (your method would gain half as much in the same span of time), but yours also requires only the one feat.


You forgot that you need a psicrystal to use the share pain/vigor combo most efficiently. You share powers so you only have to manifest vigor once and it hits you and the crystal. So I would take that feat at level 3. Nimble, Hero or Singleminded would be good choices for personality.

Student's Surge, from the PF Wilder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/wilder), grants Psicrystal Affinity as a bonus feat as its level 1 surge bond. It's part of the appeal of Student's Surge to me. I was planning on Artiste for the Craft bonuses for Astral Construct (I'm assuming I can't generally take 10 on the check in combat), but frankly, I like Nimble as well. :smallsmile:


Ok, I see thaso this is going to sound crazy. But have you considered Incarnate, or Totemist/Incarnate?

1) Necrocarnum Circlet bound to your Crown chakra gives you an infinitely replaceable Necrocarnum Zombie (which is actually much better then a normal zombie), with hit dice equal to your Incarnate meldshaper level. So all you need to do is find a Pegasus or whatever, kill it, and now it's your servant forever.

2) Incarnate Weapon soulmeld will give you a +3 magic weapon which can't be destroyed. Dissolving Spittle also gives you a ranged touch attack that deals 4d6 damage. (Better then a Warlock 6). Totemist also has a long list of potent natural weapon options (superior to Claws of the Beast at low levles), plus Flesh to Stone or Save or Stun effects.

3) Incarnate is probably the hardest to kill class out there. Your choice of Spell Resistance, Damage Reduction, bonus hit points, Evasion, Save bonuses, Energy Resistance, miss chance, bonus AC, retributive damage, etc.

4) Astral Vembraces or Airstep Sandals can give you flight. Blink Shirt bound to Totem gives Move Action dimension door. Duskling, being a Chaotic Incarnate, and several soulmelds offer movement speed increases.

And you can gain more essentia and soulmelds (and potentially chakra binds, depending on your DMs reading of Open Least Chakra) with Feats, making it perfect for E6.

I had seriously considered Incarnate for this, but not Incarnate/Totemist. Now, I'm not sure why I didn't; essentia capacity is tied to character level, not class level, so this would actually give you a wider range of chakra binds (and the same number), the same amount of essentia, but a lot more total soulmelds. My biggest barrier was, I believe, while I have a cursory knowledge of how Incarnum works (AKA, better than the average person), I still don't know a lot of what an Incarnum class can do; I'm sort of dumb to the whole range of actual powers of the soulmeld, and their bound and unbound effects. I know Totemist (and Totem chakra binds) better than the others, but wasn't all that interested in playing a Totemist.

I'm still thinking about splashing Incarnate through feats later in the game, but I understand this wouldn't have the same effect.

I'll give it a looksee, and maybe build another character for a side-by-side comparison... Thanks. :smallbiggrin:


If you want to stick with a psionic build, I would just drop the Psychic Warrior powers. Claws of the Beast + Expansion isn't going to be that impressive in an E6 game. I would stick with strait Psion or Psychic Rogue instead.

Are you certain that this is still true with Wild Surge +3 (if approved)? At that point, I can expand to Huge size for a considerable amount of time, complete with the weapon die size and reach of a Huge character... Which would elevate Claws of the Beast to 4d6, and a longspear to 3d6 (+2d6 with the Deep Crystal effect, when used). Swift action movement (through Hustle or Dimension Hop would ensure a full attack with Claws of the Beast (or with both ends of a Deep Crystal quarterstaff, though this would require Two Weapon Fighting), and I would threaten basically all the things. The claws are never outscaled by BAB, because I would never have a BAB of +6 or more. If I could finagle Improved Natural Attack on claws somehow, they improve to 6d6, which makes them a good nuke button at that point.

I mean, I guess it's still "damage expressed in dice" and "melee range attacks", but this seems suitable for a warrior-type in E6.


He's actually using PF Wilder, which is significantly better.

OP: I would use Warrior's Surge instead for a gish. You lose a power known, but you will repatedly gain temp HP from Hardened Body which will allow you to ignore hits. Even if you enervate, you will lose that same HP and be right back where you started. You'll also be staggered, which still allows you to keep attacking (and since you only have 1 attack anyway, you won't notice the difference.) Effectively, you can surge every round with no drawback - no loss of PP and no loss of attacks.

This is a compelling point. I was actually leaning to Student's Surge because both surge bond benefits appealed most to me (Psicrystal Affinity for all the benefits of a Psicrystal, including Share Pain/Vigor abuse, and Expanded Knowledge to shore up the lack of powers known), and Dazzled isn't that bad a condition to have (unless you get really unlucky and stack it 3 or more times). That said, the Warrior's surge is just objectively better.

Assume Wild Surge +3 is on the table, and I take Bestow Power and some way to mitigate the enervation or the power point cost. Power Points are now rechargable and Hit Points are expendable (via Vigor and out-of-combat healing), so I'm complacent about losing either in an enervated surge. Which surge, as a whole (including the surge itself as well as the surge bond benefits), would you prefer? I'd prefer Student's Surge still, but all of the reasons are feats I could just take down the line.


Also - if you have no better weapon to use, note that your surge blast can be used in melee without provoking for 2d6 ranged touch every round.

I think that, with Expansion, I will be able to come up with something suitable (either Claws of the Beast or a Deep Crystal weapon, but I'm leaning to the Deep Crystal weapon right now), but I'm still going to keep Surge Blast in reserve--if I can get Wild Surge +3, it becomes a 3d6 ranged touch attack, which is useful when I'm not Large or Huge (the DEX penalties and to-hit penalties combined amount to a -4 to hit), and it's an at-will ranged option of sorts; if I get Psychic Meditation, I can regain my psionic focus as a swift action (via Hustle) or as a move action with swift action teleportation, so I'm not really losing anything in the way of action economy to recover and use it. :smallsmile:

[the_archduke]

If you are going to focus heavily on Astral Construct, the boost construct feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#boostConstruct) is awesome.

[Lonely Tylenol]

If you are going to focus heavily on Astral Construct, the boost construct feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#boostConstruct) is awesome.

Ooh, that looks delicious.

Also, I just noticed: you can Feat Leech your psicrystal!

What are some useful psionic feats a psicrystal can take, given the ability score restrictions and the like of a psicrystal?

[Novawurmson]

Pretty sure psicrystals don't get feats?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Pretty sure psicrystals don't get feats?


Pretty sure psicrystals don't get feats?

How sure are you? They are Constructs with an INT score (the Types & Subtypes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm) is pretty explicit about Construct-type creatures without an INT score not getting skills or feats, but says no such thing about Constructs with an INT score), and the Psicrystal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psicrystal.htm) explicitly lists its HD as "as master's HD". That means a psicrystal has 6 HD, which should be complete with three feats, correct?

[Kuulvheysoon]

How sure are you? They are Constructs with an INT score (the Types & Subtypes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm) is pretty explicit about Construct-type creatures without an INT score not getting skills or feats, but says no such thing about Constructs with an INT score), and the Psicrystal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psicrystal.htm) explicitly lists its HD as "as master's HD". That means a psicrystal has 6 HD, which should be complete with three feats, correct?

I'm with you here. Psycrystals are Construct-type Monsters (as evidenced by their statblock in the XPH). They have an Intelligence score greater than 3. Most importantly, they gain real HD as your Wilder level increases. I see no compelling reason why they shouldn't get feats.

[Psyren]

OP, you're using PF psionics - Psicrystals no longer advance HD along with their master's in PF, therefore they no longer gain feats. They merely gain hitpoints like familiars do.

It is up to your DM whether to grandfather in the clause that allows them to gain feats, but DSP purposefully removed it.

[Lonely Tylenol]

OP, you're using PF psionics - Psicrystals no longer advance HD along with their master's in PF, therefore they no longer gain feats. They merely gain hitpoints like familiars do.

It is up to your DM whether to grandfather in the clause that allows them to gain feats, but DSP purposefully removed it.

I am the DM, currently, and the precedent I've set with past games is that wherever there is something that exists in both systems, use the better of the two. For example, the Barbarians in my group use 3.5 Rage, which is easily multiplicative in E6 (Extra Rage > any method of getting rage rounds) but also has appealing rage variants (Whirling Frenzy for the chain-user, Ferocity for the ranged skirmisher Scout), but still have access to rage powers, provided they took enough levels in Barbarian to have rage powers (two have). A former character in this group, which was a Psion, had a psicrystal with feats when I was DM, but that was before Psionics Unleashed went up on the PFSRD, I believe.

Regardless, I have asked the DM-to-be what his rulings are, and gotten the following:

YES on Wild Surge +3 as a feat;
YES on learning my mantle's fourth-level power as a feat (with caveats, to be discussed later);
PROBABLY on the psicrystal gaining feats (he said probably yes, but he needs to know more about why first).

So Wild Surge +3 can be safely built around, and I may be able to gain psionic flight down the line, likely with feat investiture. Verdict is out on whether my psicrystal has feats until I can discuss it with him myself, which is probably just as well, as it would probably be excessive of me to Feat Leech my psicrystal. So let's not worry too much about that last one for now.

[Psyren]

If you can swing the 3.5 interpretation then do so by all means, I was just letting you know that the clause that allowed Psicrystals to potentially gain feats was removed in Pathfinder. As every other part of their entry is the same, I can only conclude this was done intentionally.

If your DM does allow it though, Metapsionic feats are a good choice - you don't actually have to be a manifester to take them, so your psicrystal can stock up on the more niche ones like Burrow Power. Overchannel + Talented are good choices too. Power Penetration is fantastic when you need the boost, and Psionic Endowment can be handy too. Another option is to have your psicrystal take a whole bunch of Psionic Talent feats, but in that instance your DM will have to decide what happens if you leech more than once.

[Lonely Tylenol]

If you can swing the 3.5 interpretation then do so by all means, I was just letting you know that the clause that allowed Psicrystals to potentially gain feats was removed in Pathfinder. As every other part of their entry is the same, I can only conclude this was done intentionally.

If your DM does allow it though, Metapsionic feats are a good choice - you don't actually have to be a manifester to take them, so your psicrystal can stock up on the more niche ones like Burrow Power. Overchannel + Talented are good choices too. Power Penetration is fantastic when you need the boost, and Psionic Endowment can be handy too. Another option is to have your psicrystal take a whole bunch of Psionic Talent feats, but in that instance your DM will have to decide what happens if you leech more than once.

And I appreciate it; just trying to clear up what is probably going to see play at the table, since I know "3.5/P" means vastly different things at different tables. :smallsmile:

How useful is Overchannel to a Wilder? (They cannot be used together, correct?)

I was thinking about giving my Psicrystal Hidden Talent, and it looks like that will let him qualify for Psionic Talent, so that seems like a solid pick right now.

While I have you, any chance you could follow up on this?


Assume Wild Surge +3 is on the table, and I take Bestow Power and some way to mitigate the enervation or the power point cost. Power Points are now rechargable and Hit Points are expendable (via Vigor and out-of-combat healing), so I'm complacent about losing either in an enervated surge. Which surge, as a whole (including the surge itself as well as the surge bond benefits), would you prefer? I'd prefer Student's Surge still, but all of the reasons are feats I could just take down the line.

I see legitimate reasons to take either, and Warrior's Surge is much, much better with Bestow Power in a normal E6 game (where Wild Surge is stuck at +2); however, I feel that Wild Surge +3 (which the DM has absolutely approved) changes the game, because now any Wild Surge can power loop, but at the same time, the HP loss can also be mitigated with Vigor anyway. Is Warrior's Surge worth losing the better benefits of Student's Surge?

Also: which would be the better avenue to take, in your opinion, between Enervation Endurance and Earth Power (+ Earth Sense)? I understand Earth Power is just, in general, much better for being able to mitigate the cost of all powers, but if you are using it to fuel a recharge mechanic, then you only need to be concerned with how much you expend in a single encounter (barring exigent circumstances, of course).

I notice that neither is really necessary with Warrior's Surge (you can Surge +3 Bestow Power to gain 4 points for the cost of 3, and you never risk losing PP with an enervated surge); is it worth losing the free Expanded Knowledge to just take Psicrystal Affinity at third level in place of the feat(s) I would have used to fuel Bestow Power regeneration? I understand I can just take the Expanded Knowledge later, but I was planning on doing that anyway, so it just sets me back a power regardless.

Finally: Would you rather we move this to the Psionics Questions thread? :smallsmile:

[the_archduke]

If I understand Warrior surge, you gain 5 temp hp every time you wild surge. If you add evervation endurance or enervation fortitude (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/enervation-fortitude-psionic) in pathfinder, you will only lose 3 hp upon enervation. Thus, it can never hurt your real hp outside of a combat situation. Warrior surge thus makes recharging much more efficient.

Is staggered (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Staggered) or dazzled (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Dazzled) going to be worse for you?

Up to -3 to hit vs losing actions.

To me that is advantage Student Surge.

So oddly, warrior surge is better for recharging and student surge is better for combat.

[Fable Wright]

Yes... I think I found something. In the Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a)feature for 3.5e, there's an ACF that let you trade the 5th level ability for Expanded Knowledge. That may help you slot in powers.


Ooh, that looks delicious.

Also, I just noticed: you can Feat Leech your psicrystal!

What are some useful psionic feats a psicrystal can take, given the ability score restrictions and the like of a psicrystal?

Hidden Talent, for one. The Crystal can't manifest it without a Cha boost, but it can still know the power. That gives it a manifester level, so when it gets up to 3HD, it can get a Psicrystal with hidden talent. Unfortunately, the loop breaks there, as the psycrystal doesn't have levels in psionic classes, and bonus ML from Practiced Manifested don't count. Still, it lets you dissolve one power known for two other level 1 powers, so...

[Lonely Tylenol]

If I understand Warrior surge, you gain 5 temp hp every time you wild surge. If you add evervation endurance or enervation fortitude (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/feats/enervation-fortitude-psionic) in pathfinder, you will only lose 3 hp upon enervation. Thus, it can never hurt your real hp outside of a combat situation. Warrior surge thus makes recharging much more efficient.

Well, yes and no: you only gain the 5 temp HP if you experience surging euphoria (which only happens on a successful surge), while you only lose the 3 (or 6) HP when you experience psychic enervation (which only happens on a failed surge). That said, the former can still be a buffer for the latter.


Is staggered (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Staggered) or dazzled (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Dazzled) going to be worse for you?

Up to -3 to hit vs losing actions.

To me that is advantage Student Surge.

I'm inclined to think so too... Fact of the matter is, surging euphoria (which gives a +1 to hit) can offset the penalties of being dazzled, so they can offset each other. However, staggered isn't a death knell for me, as I'm going to have two powers that allow me to move as a swift action (so, in the worst case, I lose my swift action for the round).

Hrng! Difficult choices!


Yes... I think I found something. In the Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a)feature for 3.5e, there's an ACF that let you trade the 5th level ability for Expanded Knowledge. That may help you slot in powers.

In a sort of way, that's what I'm doing with the PF Wilder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/wilder). Instead of the standard Volatile Mind, which the Free Surge gives you (as a greater surge bond), I was planning on getting Student's Surge (which gets Expanded Knowledge as its greater surge bond), or Warrior's Surge (which gets Hardened Body as its greater surge bond). I haven't decided on which yet, though.


Hidden Talent, for one. The Crystal can't manifest it without a Cha boost, but it can still know the power. That gives it a manifester level, so when it gets up to 3HD, it can get a Psicrystal with hidden talent. Unfortunately, the loop breaks there, as the psycrystal doesn't have levels in psionic classes, and bonus ML from Practiced Manifested don't count. Still, it lets you dissolve one power known for two other level 1 powers, so...

That's... Pretty awesome, actually.

Say, if I manifest a power on myself, does it affect both psicrystals with Share Power, since I share with my psicrystal and it shares with its psicrystal? I'm assuming I won't get the personality benefits of both of them (the psicrystal gets the benefit of the second), but that's okay.

[Person_Man]

I had seriously considered Incarnate for this, but not Incarnate/Totemist. Now, I'm not sure why I didn't; essentia capacity is tied to character level, not class level, so this would actually give you a wider range of chakra binds (and the same number), the same amount of essentia, but a lot more total soulmelds. My biggest barrier was, I believe, while I have a cursory knowledge of how Incarnum works (AKA, better than the average person), I still don't know a lot of what an Incarnum class can do;

E6 actually makes the Incarnum rules much easier, because you only need to figure out the math on everything once. Plus you can change all of your soulmelds and binds every morning, so if one particular build doesn't work out for you, you're not locked into it. Lets assume you go Totemist 2/Incarnate 4. You get:


3 Totemist soulmelds. These soulmelds have an essentia capacity of 2. If a soulmeld is bound to your Totem chakra, it has an essentia capacity of 3.
4 Incarnate soulmelds. These soulmelds have an essentia capacity of 3.
You can gain additional soulmelds with the Shape Soulmeld feat, though I wouldn't bother.
1 Totemist chakra bind, 1 Incarnate chakra bind. Depending on how your DM reads the Open Least Chakra feat, you might be able to gain up to two additional chakra binds.
Totem, Crown, Feet, and Hands chakra slots are open.
6 points of essentia, plus whatever you get from Feats, items, race, etc.



My default e6 choices would be:
Warforged for a Slam attack and a bunch of immunities, or Azurin for a bonus Feat and point of essentia.
Totemist: Girillion Arms bound to Totem Chakra, giving you 4 claw attacks. For your remaining two soulmelds I suggest some combination of Dragon Tail (Dragon Magic) for a tail attack, Chaos Roc's Span (Dragon Mag 350) for 2 wing buffet attacks, Rageclaws or Blood Talons for Die Hard, Threefold Mask of the Chimera for Immunity to Flanking (if you know your DM is fond of Rogues), or Wormtail Belt for the Natural Armor bonus.

Incarnate: Astral Vembraces bound to your Hands, which gives you DR 8/magic plus 2 more Slam attacks. For your remaining three soulmelds, I suggest some combination of Mantle of Flame (4d6 retributive fire damage), Spellward Shirt (Spell Resistance 17), Dragon Tail (it's a Totemist and Incarnate soulmeld, so bind it under either), Mage's Spectacles (UMD), Acrobat Boots (Tumble), or Impulse Boots (Uncanny Dodge). Note that Incarnate soulmelds are far more dependent on essentia then Totemist soulmelds, and the values given assume that the soulmeld listed is filled.

[Psyren]

How useful is Overchannel to a Wilder? (They cannot be used together, correct?)

They cannot be combined in 3.5 or PF, no.



I see legitimate reasons to take either, and Warrior's Surge is much, much better with Bestow Power in a normal E6 game (where Wild Surge is stuck at +2); however, I feel that Wild Surge +3 (which the DM has absolutely approved) changes the game, because now any Wild Surge can power loop, but at the same time, the HP loss can also be mitigated with Vigor anyway. Is Warrior's Surge worth losing the better benefits of Student's Surge?

This is another PF fix - Wild Surge can't pay for Bestow Power (though it can increase your transfer cap, the PP are still deducted from your pool normally.) If you use 3.5 Bestow Power then yes, Wild Surge can pay for the transfer.

Concerning Warrior's Surge - you don't need Vigor to combat the HP loss - as I said earlier, you get temp HP from the Warrior Wilder's Surge Bond.



Also: which would be the better avenue to take, in your opinion, between Enervation Endurance and Earth Power (+ Earth Sense)? I understand Earth Power is just, in general, much better for being able to mitigate the cost of all powers, but if you are using it to fuel a recharge mechanic, then you only need to be concerned with how much you expend in a single encounter (barring exigent circumstances, of course).

As above, you don't need Enervation Endurance with a Warrior's Surge, as you are losing neither PP nor standard actions.



Finally: Would you rather we move this to the Psionics Questions thread? :smallsmile:

In this particular instance I would say no, simply because your build/table is blending the 3.5 and PF psionics rules in a way that could easily confuse someone not familiar with either or both. (e.g. combining PF Wilders with 3.5 Psicrystals.)

[Fable Wright]

I'm inclined to think so too... Fact of the matter is, surging euphoria (which gives a +1 to hit) can offset the penalties of being dazzled, so they can offset each other. However, staggered isn't a death knell for me, as I'm going to have two powers that allow me to move as a swift action (so, in the worst case, I lose my swift action for the round).

Hrng! Difficult choices!
Student is probably the best surge. Hardened Body isn't that useful if Vigor's on the table, especially with Share Pain, you need additional powers known, and a free feat that gets you something you're investing in already instead of 2 power points makes it (to me, at least) an easy decision.



That's... Pretty awesome, actually.

Say, if I manifest a power on myself, does it affect both psicrystals with Share Power, since I share with my psicrystal and it shares with its psicrystal? I'm assuming I won't get the personality benefits of both of them (the psicrystal gets the benefit of the second), but that's okay.
No. It's a power manifested by the Wilder that's shared with the Psycrystal, and the power is shared as it's manifested. As your psycrystal isn't manifesting until you give it a tiny little Cloak of Charisma, you can't share powers with both...

Though, if you feat leech the Psycrystal Affinity feat from your Psycrystal, the psycrystal that creates would be able to share your powers.

[Lonely Tylenol]

E6 actually makes the Incarnum rules much easier, because you only need to figure out the math on everything once. Plus you can change all of your soulmelds and binds every morning, so if one particular build doesn't work out for you, you're not locked into it. Lets assume you go Totemist 2/Incarnate 4. You get:


3 Totemist soulmelds. These soulmelds have an essentia capacity of 2. If a soulmeld is bound to your Totem chakra, it has an essentia capacity of 3.
4 Incarnate soulmelds. These soulmelds have an essentia capacity of 3.
You can gain additional soulmelds with the Shape Soulmeld feat, though I wouldn't bother.
1 Totemist chakra bind, 1 Incarnate chakra bind. Depending on how your DM reads the Open Least Chakra feat, you might be able to gain up to two additional chakra binds.
Totem, Crown, Feet, and Hands chakra slots are open.
6 points of essentia, plus whatever you get from Feats, items, race, etc.



My default e6 choices would be:
Warforged for a Slam attack and a bunch of immunities, or Azurin for a bonus Feat and point of essentia.
Totemist: Girillion Arms bound to Totem Chakra, giving you 4 claw attacks. For your remaining two soulmelds I suggest some combination of Dragon Tail (Dragon Magic) for a tail attack, Chaos Roc's Span (Dragon Mag 350) for 2 wing buffet attacks, Rageclaws or Blood Talons for Die Hard, Threefold Mask of the Chimera for Immunity to Flanking (if you know your DM is fond of Rogues), or Wormtail Belt for the Natural Armor bonus.

Incarnate: Astral Vembraces bound to your Hands, which gives you DR 8/magic plus 2 more Slam attacks. For your remaining three soulmelds, I suggest some combination of Mantle of Flame (4d6 retributive fire damage), Spellward Shirt (Spell Resistance 17), Dragon Tail (it's a Totemist and Incarnate soulmeld, so bind it under either), Mage's Spectacles (UMD), Acrobat Boots (Tumble), or Impulse Boots (Uncanny Dodge). Note that Incarnate soulmelds are far more dependent on essentia then Totemist soulmelds, and the values given assume that the soulmeld listed is filled.

OK, that's actually much easier to understand (except for how the Open Least Chakra feat grants up to two additional binds; is this just because it can bind Crown, Hands and Feet, and I already have access to one of the three, so it can grant access to both of the other?). It also gives me a good idea of what to build toward as far as spells are concerned.

Quick question:

Given the nature of soulmelds (the fact that they occupy a magic item slot, and are modular on a day-to-day basis) and the sheer number of them, combined with a focus on natural attacks, would it be even worth bothering with magic items, or is Vow of Poverty worth considering here? I know, I know, Vow of Poverty is a trap, and all of its abilities are easily replicated with magic items... But in this case, magic items take up slots that soulmelds could use, and I'd have seven of them (where a character only has twelve magic item slots anyway, barring fringe cases with Extra Item Slot). On your list, I only see rings and amulets not being covered, aside from, I suppose, actual armor, unless I am missing something.


This is another PF fix - Wild Surge can't pay for Bestow Power (though it can increase your transfer cap, the PP are still deducted from your pool normally.) If you use 3.5 Bestow Power then yes, Wild Surge can pay for the transfer.

In general, we are using 3.5 or PF classes wherever they are better, but defaulting to 3.5 spells, powers, and feats, and limiting PF access in this regard (because of system blindness when creating these things, which results in poor interaction with each other; the example that I most often cite is Drow of the Underdark's Imperious Command feat in 3.5, combined with Pathfinder's Dastardly Finish). So as it stands, 3.5 Bestow Power is what is being used either way.

I'm starting to see where even this distinction is not suitable, since PF Bestow Power closes a loophole that allows Warrior's Surge to exist without being game-breaking, which 3.5 Bestow Power explicitly breaks.

I'll ask the new DM about it; if he thinks that this trick is not suitable (and it clearly wasn't intended to work this way anyway), I will not use Bestow Power (and not let it inform my decisions).


Concerning Warrior's Surge - you don't need Vigor to combat the HP loss - as I said earlier, you get temp HP from the Warrior Wilder's Surge Bond.

Yeah, you're right. I'm sorry. I wasn't thinking about that.

(Do the temporary hit points from Vigor and Warrior's Surge even stack with each other? I'm assuming no? What about the temporary hit points from Warrior's Surge - do they stack with themselves, if I gain multiple surging instances of surging euphoria in quick succession? I'm guessing also no?)


As above, you don't need Enervation Endurance with a Warrior's Surge, as you are losing neither PP nor standard actions.

Yeah, that question sort of obviated itself, hence the follow-up ("should I just forego the surge bond benefits of Student's Surge, and use the feat slots I am saving on power point mitigators to gain Psicrystal Affinity and suffer being behind in a power for awhile? Is that worth the trade?"), which you didn't directly answer... But sort of indirectly did, by making Warrior's Surge sound clearly better than I thought.


In this particular instance I would say no, simply because your build/table is blending the 3.5 and PF psionics rules in a way that could easily confuse someone not familiar with either or both. (e.g. combining PF Wilders with 3.5 Psicrystals.)

Fair point. :smallyuk:


Student is probably the best surge. Hardened Body isn't that useful if Vigor's on the table, especially with Share Pain, you need additional powers known, and a free feat that gets you something you're investing in already instead of 2 power points makes it (to me, at least) an easy decision.

I agree... But, I am starting to see where each see their biggest strengths.

Hm... I'm going to have to think on this one a bit.


No. It's a power manifested by the Wilder that's shared with the Psycrystal, and the power is shared as it's manifested. As your psycrystal isn't manifesting until you give it a tiny little Cloak of Charisma, you can't share powers with both...

I was thinking Animal Affinity or an item that lets me cast it on myself at-will (which would share with the psicrystal). Presumably, the Psicrystal now has the ability to manifest, so it shares its powers with its own Psicrystal... Correct?

Although, you know what? Tiny little Cloak of Charisma. Because I want my little buddy to feel like Superman.


Though, if you feat leech the Psycrystal Affinity feat from your Psycrystal, the psycrystal that creates would be able to share your powers.

I... What? Can you even do that? Psicrystal Affinity doesn't have a "Special: you can take this feat multiple times" clause, and I don't think Feat Leech circumvents that... And if you could, that raises a host of other bizarre questions, especially concerning 3.5 Psicrystal (because this can be done in 3.5 anyway), like: what happens to the psicrystal's Hit Dice when you leech the feat? Does it gain Hit Dice until it has Hit Dice "as master's"? And then, when it reverts to its original owner, does it lose Hit Dice? Does it gain feats when it gains these Hit Dice? Are they the same feats or different ones each time? Can I leech these feats?

Actually... You know what? I'm starting to get a headache just thinking about it. I think I will simply choose not to try leech Psicrystal Affinity, legal or not. :smalltongue:

[Lonely Tylenol]

Alright, so my character sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=519232) is mostly finished. (I rolled ability scores of 13 STR, 14 DEX, 15 CON, 14 INT, 13 WIS, 15 CHA, and put my 4th-level point into STR.)

Trying to figure out, at this point, what I should do about ability scores. The DM has allowed me to keep the +2 to any one ability score, as long as I give a commensurate -2 to one ability score as well (in keeping with the tradition that PF races, which are generally one +2 ahead of 3.5 races, scale back accordingly). I'm thinking of putting the +2 in STR and the -2 in WIS, killing my ability to gain Psionic Meditation dead--but I'm not certain.

I'm also thinking of taking the Magic-Blooded template for +2 to CHA for -2 to WIS if I do this, effectively tanking my WIS completely (but for the benefit of two relevant scores).

Thoughts on this?

Also: Are there any absolute must-have items for a wilder gish that are easily obtained with 10,000gp starting wealth? I assumed not, and went with the generic loadout of "decent weapon + decent armor + cloak of save bonuses". I know it may be useful to grab a cognizance crystal (no, the more useful options do not exist in this world, per item creation limitations I myself have enforced) and make an item of lots of CHA bonus somewhere down the line, but I can't think of anything that would be an absolute must-have for this sort of character.

[Fable Wright]

-snip-

Thoughts on this?

Also: Are there any absolute must-have items for a wilder gish that are easily obtained with 10,000gp starting wealth? I assumed not, and went with the generic loadout of "decent weapon + decent armor + cloak of save bonuses". I know it may be useful to grab a cognizance crystal (no, the more useful options do not exist in this world, per item creation limitations I myself have enforced) and make an item of lots of CHA bonus somewhere down the line, but I can't think of anything that would be an absolute must-have for this sort of character.

My first thought is to not dump Wis. Will saves come up in E6, and are usually the save or be done with this combat sort, and hurting those saves isn't that good a thing. I would honestly go with +2 Str, -2 Dex, since your Dex is going to be shrinking anyways when you Expansion. However, if you're not too worried about that, and don't plan on expending your Focus more than once per combat, dumping it with Magic-Blooded and Racial scores seems like a plan.

As for must-have items? I would point out +1 Armor of Displacement just because it's a really good deal, but other than that, no.

[Lonely Tylenol]

My first thought is to not dump Wis. Will saves come up in E6, and are usually the save or be done with this combat sort, and hurting those saves isn't that good a thing. I would honestly go with +2 Str, -2 Dex, since your Dex is going to be shrinking anyways when you Expansion. However, if you're not too worried about that, and don't plan on expending your Focus more than once per combat, dumping it with Magic-Blooded and Racial scores seems like a plan.

I'm not -too- concerned with my Will save, as I have the Elan racial +4 in a pinch (which would improve my saves to +10 on an immediate action at level 6), Surging Euphoria gives an extra bonus to my save, and Defensive Precognition would allow me to boost to a total (all things combined) +14 to my saves (+10 without the immediate action racial), which will help me pass a vast majority of saves in a typical environment. But, it is still a concern, especially since PF Elan is Humanoid (aberrant) instead of Aberration. :smallyuk:

[Psyren]

Student is probably the best surge. Hardened Body isn't that useful if Vigor's on the table, especially with Share Pain, you need additional powers known, and a free feat that gets you something you're investing in already instead of 2 power points makes it (to me, at least) an easy decision.

You're missing the point of Hardened Body - it makes your surges free. You can get more HP out of Vigor if you need it, sure, but Hardened Body activates no matter what you're manifesting.

Staggered is not a big deal in E6 since he only has one attack anyway - there's no significant difference between a standard-action attack and a full attack for his gish.



Hidden Talent, for one. The Crystal can't manifest it without a Cha boost, but it can still know the power. That gives it a manifester level, so when it gets up to 3HD, it can get a Psicrystal with hidden talent.

No, it can't. Hidden Talent explicitly does NOT give you (or your psicrystal) an actual manifester level, and neither does Unlocked Talent (the PF version.) Psicrystals cannot recursively gain more psicrystals until epic.


@ Items: Note that if you have access to Eberron, Elans can use Quori shards. Good Skins are Proteus, Psion and Troll (you can wear up to three and cycle through them as needed.) There are some nice Third Eyes too - Conceal is the most powerful, but Expose can be great for social campaigns, and Sense is great for dungeon crawls. I don't know anything about E6 item limits though, so some or all of these may be unavailable. Also, get some Dorjes and Power Stones, even from other lists - UMD is a class skill for you and you are Cha-based.

[Person_Man]

OK, that's actually much easier to understand (except for how the Open Least Chakra feat grants up to two additional binds; is this just because it can bind Crown, Hands and Feet, and I already have access to one of the three, so it can grant access to both of the other?). It also gives me a good idea of what to build toward as far as spells are concerned.

Quick question:

Given the nature of soulmelds (the fact that they occupy a magic item slot, and are modular on a day-to-day basis) and the sheer number of them, combined with a focus on natural attacks, would it be even worth bothering with magic items, or is Vow of Poverty worth considering here? I know, I know, Vow of Poverty is a trap, and all of its abilities are easily replicated with magic items... But in this case, magic items take up slots that soulmelds could use, and I'd have seven of them (where a character only has twelve magic item slots anyway, barring fringe cases with Extra Item Slot). On your list, I only see rings and amulets not being covered, aside from, I suppose, actual armor, unless I am missing something.


So it's a moot point since you're clearly going with psionics (a perfectly respectable choice), but to answer your questions:

1) The Open Least Chakra feat is very poorly written. Some DMs believe that it opens a new chakra slot (which would be pointless for you, since Incarnate opens them for you). Others believe that it grants a new chakra bind (which would be ridiculously useful, since binding a soulmeld to a chakra slot grants an additional very useful ability). If your DM believes the former, don't even bother looking at it. If he believes the latter, then you should take the Feat multiple times (as the Feat specifically states you can) so that you get additional chakra binds for each of your available slots.

2) Soulmelds only occupy a magic item slot when they are bound to a chakra. Unbound soulmelds have no effect on magic item use. And the Totem chakra is slotless, so it has no effect. So in an E6 game, you're likely to only occupy 1 magic item slot. If your DM allows you to use Open Least Chakra to gain additional chakra binds, I still wouldn't bother with Vow of Poverty, since there are plenty of potent slotless magic items that you could use. (Like an uber potent magic weapon, staffs, scrolls, wands, potions, plus things not covered by your current slots, like armor, rings, etc).

Though if you're interested in the concept, I have a homebrew Forsaker Totemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172094) you could look at. It's been play tested, and assuming that you understand the Incarnum rules, it's quite fun and balanced.