Independent Study: Tome of Battle vs Psionics

[Velikolepni]

I am building a swordsage right now and even though they get a lot of maneuvers known, there are still some that one would like to take but has no space for. So, searching for a solution I stumbled upon the rules for independent study and found them somewhat unclear and very lacking.

If I am reading the book correctly, the character that wishes to learn a new maneuver without leveling up or burning a feat has to

Spend maneuver level x 3 days meditating
Pay 50xp per day
Pass a 25 +2 x level martial lore check (Why the hell is it that high?!)
Does not get the new maneuver at once but must wait for the next level up! (Now this is nonsence!)

Furthermore, the book is unclear on the following point: does the character get the new maneuver in addition or instead of the maneuvers gained during level-up? The book says "If the check succeeds, the character learns the maneuver the next time she has an opportunity to learn a new maneuver
through level advancement or feat selection", which is something I can read both ways.

Either way, the process seems quite unfair when compaired with the requirements that psions have to fulfill in order to get new powers. They just need to

Spend a week per level of the power, so it takes twice as long
Pay 200xp per week, which is a comparable expenditure
Pass a measly 10+power level Psicraft check

In addition to that, they get the power immediately after a succesfull check!

So I have two questions:
What are the rules for sorcerors and bards? I looked in the SRD and couldn't find them.
Can I argue with my DM that the Tome of battle rules are bonkers and use the psionics ones instead?

[Yora]

I am almost certain that in all these cases, you can never learn more spells/powers/maneuvers than you normally can. What I think you've been looking for are the rules to introduce new custom spells to the spell lists.

[Norin]

Sorc/bard can not learn new spells by means of study.

You can however use feats and sorcerers can use this method too to change spells known:


Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the sorcerer “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level sorcerer spell the sorcerer can cast. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

[Velikolepni]

I am almost certain that in all these cases, you can never learn more spells/powers/maneuvers than you normally can. What I think you've been looking for are the rules to introduce new custom spells to the spell lists.

I can very well be mistaken, but I am certain to have read claims that a psion can increase the number of powers known via research. On the other hand, going through the SRD does lead to the line "A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way." which makes me think that this opinion was wrong. However, sorcerors can gain new spell via the feat "Extra Spell", so that line in the SRD is not quite accurate.

[Yora]

Psions can learn additional powers above their normal limit and even from the power lists of other classes with the Expanded Knowledge feat. I'm not familiar with Tome of Battle beyond a quick peek, but I think there is a similar feat for maneuvers.

[Fouredged Sword]

The martial study feat will get you a new maneuver added to your list of known maneuvers. Martial stance will get you a new stance known. They are the TOB expanded knowledge, as they are unrestricted by class school lists.

[Velikolepni]

The martial study feat will get you a new maneuver added to your list of known maneuvers. Martial stance will get you a new stance known. They are the TOB expanded knowledge, as they are unrestricted by class school lists.

That is correct. Feats are however scarce and I was thinking that the character could spend a two weeks meditating in a cave and come out having learned a new maneuver at the price of a couple of hundred xp. After all, since psions can do it, why not martial adepts? The rules do not seem to want to cooperate unfortunately...

[Yora]

Psions can't do it either.

[Douglas]

I can very well be mistaken, but I am certain to have read claims that a psion can increase the number of powers known via research.
That is a technically valid interpretation of the wording as written, but I think that's an oversight by the writers. I think the intent is reasonably clearly that those rules are exclusively for developing homebrew custom powers, and that these custom powers would still take up regular known power slots just like everything else.

[Velikolepni]

Psions can't do it either.

The SRD says:


A psion also can research a power independently, duplicating an existing power or creating an entirely new one. If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation.

Any kind of manifester can create a new power. The research involved requires access to a retreat conducive to uninterrupted meditation. Research involves an expenditure of 200 XP per week and takes one week per level of the power. At the end of that time, the character makes a Psicraft check (DC 10 + spell level). If that check succeeds, the character learns the new power if her research produced a viable power. If the check fails, the character must go through the research process again if she wants to keep trying.

It seems to me that they can.

[Velikolepni]

That is a technically valid interpretation of the wording as written, but I think that's an oversight by the writers. I think the intent is reasonably clearly that those rules are exclusively for developing homebrew custom powers, and that these custom powers would still take up regular known power slots just like everything else.

That makes sense considering what is written about sorcerors and bards. In that case, I have no questions left, it seems that there is no way short of a feat or leveling up to get extra maneuvers known.

[Norin]

It's poorly written imo. I can see how it's read as possible to learn new powers independent of level ups.


If characters are allowed to develop new powers, use these guidelines to handle the situation.

This suggests strongly that it is some kind of dm's discretion/optional rule though.

[HunterOfJello]

This suggests strongly that it is some kind of dm's discretion/optional rule though.

Considering that there's quite a bit of info in the XPH that concerns DM options for alternative rules, I would go with this answer.

[Savith9]

I am building a swordsage right now and even though they get a lot of maneuvers known, there are still some that one would like to take but has no space for. So, searching for a solution I stumbled upon the rules for independent study and found them somewhat unclear and very lacking.

If I am reading the book correctly, the character that wishes to learn a new maneuver without leveling up or burning a feat has to

Spend maneuver level x 3 days meditating
Pay 50xp per day
Pass a 25 +2 x level martial lore check (Why the hell is it that high?!)
Does not get the new maneuver at once but must wait for the next level up! (Now this is nonsence!)

Furthermore, the book is unclear on the following point: does the character get the new maneuver in addition or instead of the maneuvers gained during level-up? The book says "If the check succeeds, the character learns the maneuver the next time she has an opportunity to learn a new maneuver
through level advancement or feat selection", which is something I can read both ways.

Either way, the process seems quite unfair when compaired with the requirements that psions have to fulfill in order to get new powers. They just need to

Spend a week per level of the power, so it takes twice as long
Pay 200xp per week, which is a comparable expenditure
Pass a measly 10+power level Psicraft check

In addition to that, they get the power immediately after a succesfull check!

So I have two questions:
What are the rules for sorcerors and bards? I looked in the SRD and couldn't find them.
Can I argue with my DM that the Tome of battle rules are bonkers and use the psionics ones instead?


It took me a few times reading through the book before I got what it was talking about when I was building my swordsage. But the way it works is it must be an ability of level you are able to learn for example if your level 6 it can only be a 3rd level ability and when you gain it through level progression you have the option where you "may" learn it so it takes up one of your slots to learn it you don't have to learn it just opens the option to learn it. now i do agree that the check compared to that of psionics is rediculous but the way both are written puts the far from each other.

[Talionis]

I think its mostly designed to give a way for the DM and player to get together and decide a power/maneuver/spell is acceptable in their campaign. I'll give you a minor challenge to add that spell to your list.

Players should be able to do creative things if its balanced within the campaign. But not do anything that unbalances things.

But I always see these things as less RAW and more a negotiation between player, DM and possibly playgroup.

[Gildedragon]

For extra maneuvers get the appropriate Crown of White Ravens-esque item.

[SillySymphonies]

I can very well be mistaken, but I am certain to have read claims that a psion can increase the number of powers known via research.

That is a technically valid interpretation of the wording as written, (...)
No. Check your XPH:

The number of powers that all psionic classes can know is strictly limited; manifesters can never exceed those limits even through the research of original powers.

[Psyren]

No. Check your XPH:

Nice find! That sentence didn't make it to the SRD for some reason. Well, that answers that question - only Psychic Chirurgery and Expanded Knowledge (and possibly some items?) can get you more powers known than your class table indicates.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I always thought it meant if you want to learn new maneuvers. Basically, homebrewing something that doesn't exist in the world yet for an existing discipline.